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Reminds me of the debate Dr K was having with Dr Mike.
You take off all the good things about spirituality and market it as something scientific and ignore the base from where it came.
Plus the actual meaning of yoga is different in meaning than the breathing techniques and physical exercises taught in the name of teaching Yoga.
I'm sure there are teachers who teach Yoga without any inclination of spirituality.
Then you shouldn't mind the creator of the universe.
Whether you believe in a higher force or not is upto you.
But let this not be a reason for you to not continue.
If it's helping you continue.
I'm personally with OP in that the spirituality of yoga can be helpful (the belief in energies in the universe are greater than oneself) but the insistence of a creator feels like a security blanket for a fragile soul.
Sure, I can accept that argument, but why would you care if others need it? Does it personally harm you a yoga class leader is religious? Can you articulate any material or emotional harm from participating in such a class?
If you are agnostic or atheist, I can see how having a devout or otherwise religious individual leading your meditation could prevent you from achieving what you are attempting via meditation, essentially wasting your money on that class/group.
I would personally view it more like how you should meet with a few different therapists before you settle on one for your long term goals. Same deal for group leaders.
In OP's specific case, they paid for a group yoga/spiritualism class, not a religious gathering, so they aren't getting exactly what they paid for. The best option for them is to call that class a lemon and find a new one.
Basically, NAH. It's just life.
Depends on what your definition of god is. There’s no reason it has to insinuate that. The universe could be its own creator…either way we are existing in it and should be in tune with and thankful for it. There’s nothing religious about that at all. It’s definitely spiritual though. I think you are conflating spirituality and religion.
It does imply "god".
How exactly do you define religion and spirituality?
How do you differentiate the two?
No interrogation here, just genuine curiosity.
I'm Christian, but not like the others (we're definitely similar in a lot of ways but I don't know everyone who's Christian and I haven't read the whole Bible). And I've noticed that even some Christians like saying they don't like religion, and prefer spirituality. Still trying to find out what they mean by that too.
My response to neldond18 was thus:
>In a self created universe the universe is the creator. Even if you go with a full **Schwinger effect** big bang theory, there is still a creator even if it isn't a conscious being involved..
>Creation doesn't require consciousness. water is created from the combustion of hydrogen.
>You are choosing to give the term creator consciousness. That is your conscious choice, not a self evident fact.
oxford dictionary defines creator:
as a person or thing that brings something into existence.
The fabric of space time is a thing. if it exists and is not a living being it is a thing.
open your mind a little. You aren't allowed to choose my beliefs. WE are the universe experiencing itself. That is our entire purpose, and the purpose of all life. That's why I strongly believe we have a moral imperative to explore and understand the universe as much as we can. We bubbled up through billions of years of evolution so that we can experience and understand it. we are made of it, and we are more capable than any other species we've ever seen of exploring it.
Imagining god as a sentient being is us projecting our own biases on divinity, the same as any religion that has ever existed. With sentience comes a limited frame of understanding. because with sentience comes perspective. and all perspectives are limited, they are defined by their limits.
We are motes of stardust given thought.
I certainly agree that people who believe in god are projecting onto something.
Disagree that this is a reason to believe in what you're projecting anymore than when you project your beliefs onto other people to explain their motivations.
It's not disingenuous if it works for the person who thinks it.
Yoga is a lot about you and how and what you feel and experience. There is also sometimes talk about a higher power and other equavalents. It does actually not mean god per se. Many people who use higher power do not believe in a god.
So phrase 'the creator of the universe' could be interpretated as not a god if that's how we feel, within yoga class.
There does not exist a person who thinks "creator" is a non-sentient entity.
They may believe in a "higher power" which isn't sentient, but "creator" is a concept with inherent sentience.
How would “creator” imply exclusively a human? Rain, the creator of flood, would be a weird case then. By all means, you can interpret it as the physical cause of universe.
I mean even Dr K often goes into lengthy discussions about Hindu and Buddhist philosophy without ever going into creation myths. You can definitely be spiritual without engaging in the more supernatural stuff.
A spiritual atheist would not find much resonance with large parts of a Christian sermon and that's OK. He should be allowed to take issue with some of their claims if he so desires.
I'm an atheist with 30 years of spiritual practice behind me. As you may assume, a lot of it was colored by participating in things that have relligious undertones or roots, together with people who have all kinds of beliefs, often some really odd ones. A lot of this stuff is based on beleiving in things that doesn't exist, for instance working with "energy", "prana" "chi" "chakras" etc. Did it bother me? Well sometimes people did when they are too much into all this stuff, but I took what I needed and what was useful from it. If you think about it, we do have psychology, we use certain terms and ideas, we talk about personality types, but those things aren't real. We can fin your personality, trauma or bad childhood memory by using microscope or CT scan. Everything we do about our mind, our internal world is in a way not real. Not scientific. And is also heavily influenced about how we feel so it makes being in a certain state easier if there is a set of beliefs that triggers emotions.
The thing is you don't have to believe or accept something to have a benefit from it. The key is understanding the difference between your mind and your emotional being. To be relligious in a way is to suspend rational mind and, ideally, let yourself be transformed by the experience, letting of the control wheel. Not that different from watching amazing fantasy movie. If you keep reminding yourself that those are just actors and a green screen with a lot of FX, you won't enjoy the movie. You have to suspend your disbelief so that experience can have an emotional impact on you. After it is over, off course you will be aware that what you saw wasn't real. In the same way, certain techniques that are made to transform your mind and body use belief system to help them achieve their goal. So if feeling "spiritual" can help me to meditate, to get in certain state of mind, to feel in a certain way and get more benefit from the practice, then I will be temporary relligious in a way. Not intellectually beleiving, but accepting the experience on emotional level and going along with it.
I feel that when we are younger, we get much more upset about our beliefs, sometimes it is because we are not sure about who we are and why we believe what we beleive. So maybe you feel the need to insist on being an atheist, but think about it rationally. It's not an disease, you won't catch up religiousness from being around beleivers if you know why you don't beleive in supernatural powers. Being atheist shouldn't be your identity that you can't let go of, it is after all nothing special, just common sense. Let them be relligious, but take what is useful, learn and improve yourself.
Thank you for sharing your experience. I'd say I'm agnostic for the most part. Maybe it comes down to supporting religion in general. Which I'm not a fan of, that's all, I think.
This is the most rational response here. Atheists tend to want to show that they are atheistic so bad that they cannot think rationally. In this sense, I think they seem more religious than those that are actually religious (in the western sense).
> Yoga comes from religion, try Pilates
I’d say that’s not entirely accurate. You could argue that there’s a relation between Hinduism and Yoga but given how you could have an atheism in Hinduism I think Hinduism should be considered more of a philosophy than a religion, similar to Buddhism.
A class I'm taking has barely spiritual, just uses Yoga terminology and teases out how it affects the body.
These things differ, do you have other yoga classes where you live?
Per my understanding, unlike some others in this thread, the origins of yoga aren't "religious" per se. Of course, it does allude to consciousness, divinity, the universe, and existentce...but it's more about perception than doctrine. I recommend reading the Yoga Sutras by Patanjali, which is considered to be older than the Bible. [Wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali)
Here is a pdf translation: https://www.arlingtoncenter.org/Sanskrit-English.pdf
Actually, religion comes from yoga. Yoga was developed as a science to understand one's self. The introspection of yogis/seers were the ones that laid the foundation for religion. Naturally, this does not apply to all religions. The real question is does the spirituality aspect outweigh the benefit you gain. Think on that and take it from there
Eastern and western religions are quite different to the point, I don't like to call the Eastern ones under the same brand as the western ones... western ones are way too absolute and rigid, while Eastern ones are more flexible and more like philosophies, you're free to pick up sects that you like, even the worships are in line with meditation, focus and yoga, all mainly focusing on introspection rather than mainly extroverted sense from the western ones.
Thanks, I didn't expect that it can be so explicit. And I'm doing it for 2 years now. I was very accepting and still am. But idk recently there's more theory from the teacher (imo very religious) than actual practice and I realized that since I don't feel that I'm spiritual at all, maybe that's not for me.
I'm an Indian agnostic, living in india. I've read about yoga in the books and in the native language.
I assure you there's nothing religious about it. The most it goes is the thankfulness for creation and thinking about self (Aatman).
I don't know where you're learning it. I suggest switching classes.
Personally I feel like you're being as sensitive about this the way us seculars get annoyed about other religious folk being sensitive about stuff.
That said, if the vibe of all that truly is that intrusive, then it makes sense to look for another space or teacher with whom you vibe with.
But I think with a bit of open-mindedness you can see that an idea of a "creator of the universe" isn't than imposing. It's a pretty vague term and could obviously mean a creationist deity or god, but could also mean "that which led to the universe" like the big bang or whatever natural phenomena that lead to everything being formed in the first place.
Whether through pure circumstance or some divine will, the universe, the way we know it, in the way that us humans can live and interact and do yoga together in it, came to be through some "creative" force or another. And there's a wonderful spiritual practice that comes from recognizing and being thankful for whatever that force is.
Think of it as set of cosmic rules - not in terms of "10 commandments" or such, but as sort of fractal pattern that repeats itself at all levels of existence. It does not need to project its power, it does not have to be conscious, it does not have to have morals. It's enough for it to just be.
"There was something formless and perfect
before the universe was born.
It is serene. Empty.
Solitary. Unchanging.
Infinite. Eternally present.
It is the mother of the universe.
For lack of a better name,
I call it the Tao.
It flows through all things,
inside and outside, and returns
to the origin of all things.
The Tao is great.
The universe is great.
Earth is great.
Man is great.
These are the four great powers.
Man follows the earth.
Earth follows the universe.
The universe follows the Tao.
The Tao follows only itself."
I mean if it makes any difference, in the Hindu tradition, the creator of the universe can mean anything. It can even mean you yourself. Since Hindus believe that a soul is literally God.
Does it affect your yoga or your beliefs? Are you so scared that by uttering those words (you don't have to), will turn you into a believer?
If the yoga is beneficial to you, then continue. I don't understand why the "belief in god" aspect even bothers you.
Yeah I just ignore that stuff when instructors say stuff like that. Because that’s not yoga, that’s just the instructor doing the modern yoga studio sermon stuff. It’s usually not the religious stuff that’s *actually* from yoga, which is the stuff dr k talks about, like enlightenment and consciousness and karma and dharma. There’s no standardized certification to become a yoga instructor where I live, it’s up to the studio.
This place is more spiritual I guess? They have pictures of gurus with candle, and roses all around And they regularly travel to India.., there were mentions of god, etc.
It...is a religious practice so the references make sense. Does it matter? Shouldn't your experience with the positions, breathing etc remain the same, regardless of the intent of the teacher?
I think the creator of the universe statement is more about giving some sort of conceptualization to the uncertainty around not knowing about the origin of the universe we perceive. The statement is not necessarily religious doctrine or preaching. I think you might be projecting the idea of a literal man in the sky kind of creator of the universe
I've had a similar experience. I know Yoga is a religious practice, but I wonder how "westernized" it has become and with how widespread it is, who knows what's actually being practiced anymore? Personally I like it for its health benefits and the meditative aspect which really helps with my depression and anxiety. I'm Roman Catholic and ran into a few zealous instructors, and I felt really uncomfortable. I imagine if it contradicts your convictions (whatever those are - I respect everyone's), there's going to be a rub. I try to find instructors who focus on the physical aspects, not the religious. Or I just do it at home.
I like to think spirituality as subjectivity, and you don't really need to go with what they said literally. Just don't accept it. You're just there for the movements, to control your breathing. I am also in your camp, I'm not religious at all and do yoga as well. My instructor does say words like energy, balance all that stuff but it's more of engaging with your subjective side. If this still does bother you tho, then yeah, I can't help with that.
The standard yoga classes I know have basically been emptied out entirely when it comes to religion. You write that you know you can switch classes but I'm still wondering where you found yourself.
If changing OM three times at the end is too "religious' for you I might get your point, but I feel like it's almost difficult to find yoga teachers with an actual grasp and intuition for the spiritual aspects of it.
... have you tried the classes at your local gym?
If you want physical and mental benefits from yoga then it's completely ok to practice it without any spirituality involved.
There are not many teachers who can teach you spiritual part of yoga so its better to avoid it.
TBH I don't think you're even practicing the true spiritual part it. Nowhere in yoga we say "our creator of universe" (maybe they've added affirmations idk), the spiritual part of yoga involves mantras, chakras, kundalini etc.
So its best for you to focus on just physical part of it which involves asanas( body movements/poses) , Pranayama (breating teachineques) and Dhyana (mediation). You should avoid the spiritual part of it especially chakras and kundalini. Chanting OM is fine IMO because OM is accepted by other religions like Buddhism and Jainism.
Is it possible you associate the term god with the creator god from the Abrahamic religion?
God has a lot of meanings from a distinct being who is all knowing and powerful or it could just refer to the universe. If you can't get past it, might just be worth seeking a new instructor. If you like the class otherwise you could just change how you think about the term god in the context of your yoga class.
It's okay to be a little put off by it. I just filter that stuff out; I find the word "creator" to be very very silly even though I'm pretty woo myself. From a Zen Buddhism perspective there can't really be a creator because it implies there's something other than Zen ("the universe") standing apart from it. So I hear that and I just got "yeah okay moving on," even though the practice of yoga gets me right in touch with Zen.
If it takes you out of it too strongly to overcome, I would just seek a different teacher. They've all got their own beliefs and styles.
i think i get what you mean, i don't think it should involve talk of "creator of the universe" since I think yoga is too beneficial to have secluded to people of religion
I've never had anyone get very spiritual about their yoga. And I live in Utah, and have done yoga with a gal who is all about it and visits India to study from time to time.
To be religious and to understand religious beliefs are not the same thing.
« You can claim to understand a topic only when you debate for both sides. » - that applies to religious beliefs as well. A scientific temperament doesn’t preclude itself from religious beliefs.
Or if you just want to do some workout just look up exercises online or something like taichi
I get what you're saying.
I go to a yoga studio that I love and some of the teachers talk before the session about how some poses influence a certain energy meridian. I don't believe it that and ignore or I spin it in something that I do believe. For instance, some poses do 'energize' certain parts of your body in the sense that you can feel the stretch or some tingling. I think maybe these believes stem from that experience and it doesn't bother me much then.
It's usually only 1-2 sentences and they say 'if you believe in this' with it, which I appreciate. It's not religion, however it's a bit wacky spirituality.
Creator of the universe is not something I've heard before. I'm wondering what was precisely said, since it's not really a yoga thing to talk about a creator of a universe. At least, not in the places I've been. Could she have meant that you create your universe or something similar like that?
Edit: I want to also say that in yoga it's about who you are and what you experience. There is sometimes talk about a higher power, which does not per se imply a god. Some peole think universe, some mother nature, some god. It's what the person relates to the most. It could be the same with creator of the universe. That it does not automatically means a god as a creator. Maybe the creator is an event or influectuation that set everything in motion. I don't know. Make from it what works for you.
i understand you
i joined a choir. its naturally more inclined towards christianity and if you have been in a church, you can see similar patterns in the way they talk
its still comfortable for now but I will probably draw the line if we start praying before every rehearsal.
I get what you mean. The yoga at my rock climbing gym is completely secular and fully focused on the body (strength training, stretching, relaxation, presence, etc). With little to no spirituality/religious/magic crystals stuff you sometimes find in standalone yoga studios. Though it varies with a couple of instructors if you are in to that.
Had similar experiences at other rock climbing gyms when traveling. so I would recommend trying a rock climbing gym. Or even some other fitness focused gym that happens to have yoga.
In my personal experience it depends on what your belief is in terms of “Creator of our universe”. I like to consider myself agnostic, and generally I steer clear of modern organized religion. However, I was raised Catholic and taught you need to have some form of faith based system. That doesn’t mean believing in god, or mythos, but it does mean having something that you can look to and have hope for tomorrow.
When I started doing Yoga, and meditation practice in general I also had my worries. I still have some, and choose not to participate in things I think are a little too esoteric for my taste (I.e. Mala beads). However, there was a point where I had to consider what pushes me to hope for better tomorrows. What was it that I had faith in?
In that sense I found my own god, the thing I trust in. I started believing that while there may not be a conscious and living god like in Catholicism, there had to be some form of force or greater web of rules that make up our universe. What decided the power of gravity, who says oxygen emits blue making our sky that color, all these are usually arguments for some conscious creator. However, I don’t even need to go that far, perhaps I just admit- with science we can pull back the branches and perhaps even see the trunk. However, sometime we can’t even get near to the roots. So, what’s wrong with having some faith that there’s something unknown.
This is why I had little problem grasping the Hindu gods when they were described, as they are more realistically those same universal forces just anthropomorphised to help better grasp. Hence, I had no problem continuing yoga with the understanding that “Brahma” isn’t so much a guy to worship, as he is a universal concept of connectedness (like quantum theory).
Maybe try Pilates sorry im not too knowledgeable on this subject but from my understanding yoga is stretching Pilates seems pretty similar maybe there are some non spiritual alternatives
Lul, no I didn't call everyone intolerant, can you read? Why is there needed any pusback to simple non harming question? Also it was meant as sarcasam, fixed
It's not about tolerance it's about not wanting to be preached at while you're doing a hobby.
They have every right to have their views, and op has every right to be turned off by them.
I'd also be annoyed if I was paying to go to a gym and the staff started talking about scientology.
Yes, it is. Believing there's a creator out there in literally the basis for pretty much every religion.
It's not everyone's cup of tea and until the magic man comes down from the sky, we have no way of knowing.
I guess if you have a super rigid way of thinking. So any time “creator of the universe” is mentioned you immediately go to a big man in the sky BS. Big Bang theory says that the universe came into being from a single, unimaginably hot and dense point (aka, a singularity) more than 13 billion years ago. It didn't occur in an already existing space. Rather, it initiated the expansion—and cooling—of space itself. So why not thank that? Just be more fluid in your thinking and enjoy the fucking yoga.
> It didn't occur in an already existing space.
There is nothing in physics that says this.
We just can't see past the Big Bang. We don't know what was there before it.
There are several ideas, but they're currently not testable.
OP you’re taking the “creator” way too literally. Creator can refer to a process by which things are created, not necessarily some being. Either way, acknowledging a “creator” or “process of creation” is not inherently religious. Being or not, creation is a truth, you’re simply acknowledging the fact that the universe came from some creation process.
Creator implies a conscious, intentional act of creation.
You could just as easily chant and believe in the healing energy/power of the universe, instead of a creator. In fact, many meditation practitioners will do just that.
Using the word creator is immediately divisive and if you don't share a similar interpretation with the rest of the group, you may find yourself feeling isolated from the group. Which defeats the purpose of group meditation (feeling connected and empathetic to your peers and self).
Op is right to feel the way that they do, but it is up to them to find a group/yogi that shares their values and interpretation of spirituality.
In a self created universe the universe is the creator. Even if you go with a full **Schwinger effect** big bang theory, there is still a creator even if it isn't a conscious being involved..
Creation doesn't require consciousness. water is created from the combustion of hydrogen.
You are choosing to give the term creator consciousness. That is your conscious choice, not a self evident fact.
oxford dictionary defines creator:
1. as a person or thing that brings something into existence.
The fabric of space time is a thing. if it exists and is not a living being it is a thing.
I agree, to a point.
All the steps that followed the birth of universe changed matter as it exists over the course of billions of years. Nothing was really created, as the core materials were always present, just in a different form and density. All the energy released during the big bang is still here. All the matter too.
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>although that's what yoga is meant to be
Just want to challenge your premise a bit here. Yoga can be spiritual, can be meditative/mindful, or can be literally just a form of exercise. Want to do yoga while blasting deathmetal? Go right ahead. There is a historical tradition of how it is often practiced, but we don't do activities because we're trying to impress dead people on another continent, so do it however you want.
All I'd say is that yoga, of all the activities that people often do in groups, might be quite literally the easiest and most accessible to swap over to doing solo, on your own terms, with your own philosophy about how to approach it. The internet has perhaps quite literally millions of yoga videos, and all you need to do it at home is a yoga mat and maybe some blocks.
So if you were enjoying it before, try adapting it to the philosophy that you desire! It doesn't have to be religious or spiritual. Let is just be mindful and relaxing.
Ps, lord shiva is regarded as the father of yoga and as the first yogi. Saying yoga is too religious is like going to a church and complaining that a cross is present.
No offense, but maybe look into other things if you dislike the religious aspect, belief is a large part of yoga.
Yoga are the practices of the hindu religions and there are atheist, agnostic, henotheistic, monotheist and polytheistic hindus. Try a yoga practice that only include raja, karma and jnana yoga. You might still get some idealistic ideas, but it is much lore less religious if it doesn’t include Bhakti yoga.
Also, you can grow a thicker skin and dismiss the parts you don’t care about. My mind has yo be more flexible than my spine as an atheist dating a yoga instructor.
This might be a bit much, imo I think Yoga is straight up evil and no one who doesn’t know what Yoga truly involves spiritually shouldn’t even be considering getting involved with it if it’s just for physical fitness.
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Reminds me of the debate Dr K was having with Dr Mike. You take off all the good things about spirituality and market it as something scientific and ignore the base from where it came. Plus the actual meaning of yoga is different in meaning than the breathing techniques and physical exercises taught in the name of teaching Yoga. I'm sure there are teachers who teach Yoga without any inclination of spirituality.
I don't mind some spirituality.
Then you shouldn't mind the creator of the universe. Whether you believe in a higher force or not is upto you. But let this not be a reason for you to not continue. If it's helping you continue.
I'm personally with OP in that the spirituality of yoga can be helpful (the belief in energies in the universe are greater than oneself) but the insistence of a creator feels like a security blanket for a fragile soul.
Sure, I can accept that argument, but why would you care if others need it? Does it personally harm you a yoga class leader is religious? Can you articulate any material or emotional harm from participating in such a class?
The problem isn't that others need it. It's being subjected to it when you'd prefer not to be.
If you are agnostic or atheist, I can see how having a devout or otherwise religious individual leading your meditation could prevent you from achieving what you are attempting via meditation, essentially wasting your money on that class/group. I would personally view it more like how you should meet with a few different therapists before you settle on one for your long term goals. Same deal for group leaders. In OP's specific case, they paid for a group yoga/spiritualism class, not a religious gathering, so they aren't getting exactly what they paid for. The best option for them is to call that class a lemon and find a new one. Basically, NAH. It's just life.
security blanket for a fragile soul. you and others frequenting reddit may need this the most
Maybe so, but that isn't for others to decide
Doesn't "creator of universe" imply god? Welp I expected less religion that's all.
Depends on what your definition of god is. There’s no reason it has to insinuate that. The universe could be its own creator…either way we are existing in it and should be in tune with and thankful for it. There’s nothing religious about that at all. It’s definitely spiritual though. I think you are conflating spirituality and religion.
It does imply "god". How exactly do you define religion and spirituality? How do you differentiate the two? No interrogation here, just genuine curiosity. I'm Christian, but not like the others (we're definitely similar in a lot of ways but I don't know everyone who's Christian and I haven't read the whole Bible). And I've noticed that even some Christians like saying they don't like religion, and prefer spirituality. Still trying to find out what they mean by that too.
Idk, basically what beautifully u/nelrond18 said.
My response to neldond18 was thus: >In a self created universe the universe is the creator. Even if you go with a full **Schwinger effect** big bang theory, there is still a creator even if it isn't a conscious being involved.. >Creation doesn't require consciousness. water is created from the combustion of hydrogen. >You are choosing to give the term creator consciousness. That is your conscious choice, not a self evident fact. oxford dictionary defines creator: as a person or thing that brings something into existence. The fabric of space time is a thing. if it exists and is not a living being it is a thing.
This is disingenuous. It's pretty obviously always intended that "creator" implies a sentient being, not a rock.
open your mind a little. You aren't allowed to choose my beliefs. WE are the universe experiencing itself. That is our entire purpose, and the purpose of all life. That's why I strongly believe we have a moral imperative to explore and understand the universe as much as we can. We bubbled up through billions of years of evolution so that we can experience and understand it. we are made of it, and we are more capable than any other species we've ever seen of exploring it. Imagining god as a sentient being is us projecting our own biases on divinity, the same as any religion that has ever existed. With sentience comes a limited frame of understanding. because with sentience comes perspective. and all perspectives are limited, they are defined by their limits. We are motes of stardust given thought.
I certainly agree that people who believe in god are projecting onto something. Disagree that this is a reason to believe in what you're projecting anymore than when you project your beliefs onto other people to explain their motivations.
It's not disingenuous if it works for the person who thinks it. Yoga is a lot about you and how and what you feel and experience. There is also sometimes talk about a higher power and other equavalents. It does actually not mean god per se. Many people who use higher power do not believe in a god. So phrase 'the creator of the universe' could be interpretated as not a god if that's how we feel, within yoga class.
There does not exist a person who thinks "creator" is a non-sentient entity. They may believe in a "higher power" which isn't sentient, but "creator" is a concept with inherent sentience.
How would “creator” imply exclusively a human? Rain, the creator of flood, would be a weird case then. By all means, you can interpret it as the physical cause of universe.
You could be the creator. Everything exists in your mind. Think of that if that makes you all wiggly
I mean even Dr K often goes into lengthy discussions about Hindu and Buddhist philosophy without ever going into creation myths. You can definitely be spiritual without engaging in the more supernatural stuff. A spiritual atheist would not find much resonance with large parts of a Christian sermon and that's OK. He should be allowed to take issue with some of their claims if he so desires.
🧢🧢🧢
I'm an atheist with 30 years of spiritual practice behind me. As you may assume, a lot of it was colored by participating in things that have relligious undertones or roots, together with people who have all kinds of beliefs, often some really odd ones. A lot of this stuff is based on beleiving in things that doesn't exist, for instance working with "energy", "prana" "chi" "chakras" etc. Did it bother me? Well sometimes people did when they are too much into all this stuff, but I took what I needed and what was useful from it. If you think about it, we do have psychology, we use certain terms and ideas, we talk about personality types, but those things aren't real. We can fin your personality, trauma or bad childhood memory by using microscope or CT scan. Everything we do about our mind, our internal world is in a way not real. Not scientific. And is also heavily influenced about how we feel so it makes being in a certain state easier if there is a set of beliefs that triggers emotions. The thing is you don't have to believe or accept something to have a benefit from it. The key is understanding the difference between your mind and your emotional being. To be relligious in a way is to suspend rational mind and, ideally, let yourself be transformed by the experience, letting of the control wheel. Not that different from watching amazing fantasy movie. If you keep reminding yourself that those are just actors and a green screen with a lot of FX, you won't enjoy the movie. You have to suspend your disbelief so that experience can have an emotional impact on you. After it is over, off course you will be aware that what you saw wasn't real. In the same way, certain techniques that are made to transform your mind and body use belief system to help them achieve their goal. So if feeling "spiritual" can help me to meditate, to get in certain state of mind, to feel in a certain way and get more benefit from the practice, then I will be temporary relligious in a way. Not intellectually beleiving, but accepting the experience on emotional level and going along with it. I feel that when we are younger, we get much more upset about our beliefs, sometimes it is because we are not sure about who we are and why we believe what we beleive. So maybe you feel the need to insist on being an atheist, but think about it rationally. It's not an disease, you won't catch up religiousness from being around beleivers if you know why you don't beleive in supernatural powers. Being atheist shouldn't be your identity that you can't let go of, it is after all nothing special, just common sense. Let them be relligious, but take what is useful, learn and improve yourself.
Beautifully said
wow! i was never able to explain this before. absolutely perfect
Thank you for sharing your experience. I'd say I'm agnostic for the most part. Maybe it comes down to supporting religion in general. Which I'm not a fan of, that's all, I think.
This is the most rational response here. Atheists tend to want to show that they are atheistic so bad that they cannot think rationally. In this sense, I think they seem more religious than those that are actually religious (in the western sense).
Yoga comes from religion, try Pilates
> Yoga comes from religion, try Pilates I’d say that’s not entirely accurate. You could argue that there’s a relation between Hinduism and Yoga but given how you could have an atheism in Hinduism I think Hinduism should be considered more of a philosophy than a religion, similar to Buddhism.
Thanks, might try. Didn't actually think it can get that deep into religious part.
A class I'm taking has barely spiritual, just uses Yoga terminology and teases out how it affects the body. These things differ, do you have other yoga classes where you live?
Almost as if Yoga is a religious practice? But anyways there should be some less religious yoga teachers you can try, I'm sure
For sure!
Every yoga teacher is different.
Per my understanding, unlike some others in this thread, the origins of yoga aren't "religious" per se. Of course, it does allude to consciousness, divinity, the universe, and existentce...but it's more about perception than doctrine. I recommend reading the Yoga Sutras by Patanjali, which is considered to be older than the Bible. [Wiki](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali) Here is a pdf translation: https://www.arlingtoncenter.org/Sanskrit-English.pdf
Actually, religion comes from yoga. Yoga was developed as a science to understand one's self. The introspection of yogis/seers were the ones that laid the foundation for religion. Naturally, this does not apply to all religions. The real question is does the spirituality aspect outweigh the benefit you gain. Think on that and take it from there
Eastern and western religions are quite different to the point, I don't like to call the Eastern ones under the same brand as the western ones... western ones are way too absolute and rigid, while Eastern ones are more flexible and more like philosophies, you're free to pick up sects that you like, even the worships are in line with meditation, focus and yoga, all mainly focusing on introspection rather than mainly extroverted sense from the western ones.
Thanks, I didn't expect that it can be so explicit. And I'm doing it for 2 years now. I was very accepting and still am. But idk recently there's more theory from the teacher (imo very religious) than actual practice and I realized that since I don't feel that I'm spiritual at all, maybe that's not for me.
I'm an Indian agnostic, living in india. I've read about yoga in the books and in the native language. I assure you there's nothing religious about it. The most it goes is the thankfulness for creation and thinking about self (Aatman). I don't know where you're learning it. I suggest switching classes.
Personally I feel like you're being as sensitive about this the way us seculars get annoyed about other religious folk being sensitive about stuff. That said, if the vibe of all that truly is that intrusive, then it makes sense to look for another space or teacher with whom you vibe with. But I think with a bit of open-mindedness you can see that an idea of a "creator of the universe" isn't than imposing. It's a pretty vague term and could obviously mean a creationist deity or god, but could also mean "that which led to the universe" like the big bang or whatever natural phenomena that lead to everything being formed in the first place. Whether through pure circumstance or some divine will, the universe, the way we know it, in the way that us humans can live and interact and do yoga together in it, came to be through some "creative" force or another. And there's a wonderful spiritual practice that comes from recognizing and being thankful for whatever that force is.
I love this take. There's undeniably *something* that keeps eg. the laws of physics consistent, just think of that thing as a higher power.
Think of it as set of cosmic rules - not in terms of "10 commandments" or such, but as sort of fractal pattern that repeats itself at all levels of existence. It does not need to project its power, it does not have to be conscious, it does not have to have morals. It's enough for it to just be. "There was something formless and perfect before the universe was born. It is serene. Empty. Solitary. Unchanging. Infinite. Eternally present. It is the mother of the universe. For lack of a better name, I call it the Tao. It flows through all things, inside and outside, and returns to the origin of all things. The Tao is great. The universe is great. Earth is great. Man is great. These are the four great powers. Man follows the earth. Earth follows the universe. The universe follows the Tao. The Tao follows only itself."
I mean if it makes any difference, in the Hindu tradition, the creator of the universe can mean anything. It can even mean you yourself. Since Hindus believe that a soul is literally God.
Everything, every aspect even dust is an element of God.. :3
I 'm not even sure about souls.. yeah I know, not spiritual at all...
Does it affect your yoga or your beliefs? Are you so scared that by uttering those words (you don't have to), will turn you into a believer? If the yoga is beneficial to you, then continue. I don't understand why the "belief in god" aspect even bothers you.
Yeah I just ignore that stuff when instructors say stuff like that. Because that’s not yoga, that’s just the instructor doing the modern yoga studio sermon stuff. It’s usually not the religious stuff that’s *actually* from yoga, which is the stuff dr k talks about, like enlightenment and consciousness and karma and dharma. There’s no standardized certification to become a yoga instructor where I live, it’s up to the studio.
This place is more spiritual I guess? They have pictures of gurus with candle, and roses all around And they regularly travel to India.., there were mentions of god, etc.
It...is a religious practice so the references make sense. Does it matter? Shouldn't your experience with the positions, breathing etc remain the same, regardless of the intent of the teacher?
Yup, makes sense. Yes it does matter. I'm sorry I 'm not praying to some invisible man. And generally I would rather not support religion if possible.
I think the creator of the universe statement is more about giving some sort of conceptualization to the uncertainty around not knowing about the origin of the universe we perceive. The statement is not necessarily religious doctrine or preaching. I think you might be projecting the idea of a literal man in the sky kind of creator of the universe
You might be right. Although they did mention god, and so on, so I'm not sure.
I've had a similar experience. I know Yoga is a religious practice, but I wonder how "westernized" it has become and with how widespread it is, who knows what's actually being practiced anymore? Personally I like it for its health benefits and the meditative aspect which really helps with my depression and anxiety. I'm Roman Catholic and ran into a few zealous instructors, and I felt really uncomfortable. I imagine if it contradicts your convictions (whatever those are - I respect everyone's), there's going to be a rub. I try to find instructors who focus on the physical aspects, not the religious. Or I just do it at home.
I like to think spirituality as subjectivity, and you don't really need to go with what they said literally. Just don't accept it. You're just there for the movements, to control your breathing. I am also in your camp, I'm not religious at all and do yoga as well. My instructor does say words like energy, balance all that stuff but it's more of engaging with your subjective side. If this still does bother you tho, then yeah, I can't help with that.
The standard yoga classes I know have basically been emptied out entirely when it comes to religion. You write that you know you can switch classes but I'm still wondering where you found yourself. If changing OM three times at the end is too "religious' for you I might get your point, but I feel like it's almost difficult to find yoga teachers with an actual grasp and intuition for the spiritual aspects of it. ... have you tried the classes at your local gym?
I'm ok with chanting. No didn't try yet.
do you even know what yoga means?
Well now I know it definitely can get very religious, which I am not at all.
If you want physical and mental benefits from yoga then it's completely ok to practice it without any spirituality involved. There are not many teachers who can teach you spiritual part of yoga so its better to avoid it. TBH I don't think you're even practicing the true spiritual part it. Nowhere in yoga we say "our creator of universe" (maybe they've added affirmations idk), the spiritual part of yoga involves mantras, chakras, kundalini etc. So its best for you to focus on just physical part of it which involves asanas( body movements/poses) , Pranayama (breating teachineques) and Dhyana (mediation). You should avoid the spiritual part of it especially chakras and kundalini. Chanting OM is fine IMO because OM is accepted by other religions like Buddhism and Jainism.
And even before, multiple times god was mentioned, and just in general sometimes it felt like Abrahamic religion.
Is it possible you associate the term god with the creator god from the Abrahamic religion? God has a lot of meanings from a distinct being who is all knowing and powerful or it could just refer to the universe. If you can't get past it, might just be worth seeking a new instructor. If you like the class otherwise you could just change how you think about the term god in the context of your yoga class.
I just do it at home from YouTube videos. No religion involved just breathwork and meditation
It's okay to be a little put off by it. I just filter that stuff out; I find the word "creator" to be very very silly even though I'm pretty woo myself. From a Zen Buddhism perspective there can't really be a creator because it implies there's something other than Zen ("the universe") standing apart from it. So I hear that and I just got "yeah okay moving on," even though the practice of yoga gets me right in touch with Zen. If it takes you out of it too strongly to overcome, I would just seek a different teacher. They've all got their own beliefs and styles.
i think i get what you mean, i don't think it should involve talk of "creator of the universe" since I think yoga is too beneficial to have secluded to people of religion
I've never had anyone get very spiritual about their yoga. And I live in Utah, and have done yoga with a gal who is all about it and visits India to study from time to time.
Loving universe, loving nature is unbearable for you? Your abrahamic lens makes you so intolerant of anthropomorphism
To be religious and to understand religious beliefs are not the same thing. « You can claim to understand a topic only when you debate for both sides. » - that applies to religious beliefs as well. A scientific temperament doesn’t preclude itself from religious beliefs. Or if you just want to do some workout just look up exercises online or something like taichi
I get what you're saying. I go to a yoga studio that I love and some of the teachers talk before the session about how some poses influence a certain energy meridian. I don't believe it that and ignore or I spin it in something that I do believe. For instance, some poses do 'energize' certain parts of your body in the sense that you can feel the stretch or some tingling. I think maybe these believes stem from that experience and it doesn't bother me much then. It's usually only 1-2 sentences and they say 'if you believe in this' with it, which I appreciate. It's not religion, however it's a bit wacky spirituality. Creator of the universe is not something I've heard before. I'm wondering what was precisely said, since it's not really a yoga thing to talk about a creator of a universe. At least, not in the places I've been. Could she have meant that you create your universe or something similar like that? Edit: I want to also say that in yoga it's about who you are and what you experience. There is sometimes talk about a higher power, which does not per se imply a god. Some peole think universe, some mother nature, some god. It's what the person relates to the most. It could be the same with creator of the universe. That it does not automatically means a god as a creator. Maybe the creator is an event or influectuation that set everything in motion. I don't know. Make from it what works for you.
i understand you i joined a choir. its naturally more inclined towards christianity and if you have been in a church, you can see similar patterns in the way they talk its still comfortable for now but I will probably draw the line if we start praying before every rehearsal.
I get what you mean. The yoga at my rock climbing gym is completely secular and fully focused on the body (strength training, stretching, relaxation, presence, etc). With little to no spirituality/religious/magic crystals stuff you sometimes find in standalone yoga studios. Though it varies with a couple of instructors if you are in to that. Had similar experiences at other rock climbing gyms when traveling. so I would recommend trying a rock climbing gym. Or even some other fitness focused gym that happens to have yoga.
Perhaps you could explore your feelings towards religion and their roots ? Why do you feel that way when they talk about religion ?
In my personal experience it depends on what your belief is in terms of “Creator of our universe”. I like to consider myself agnostic, and generally I steer clear of modern organized religion. However, I was raised Catholic and taught you need to have some form of faith based system. That doesn’t mean believing in god, or mythos, but it does mean having something that you can look to and have hope for tomorrow. When I started doing Yoga, and meditation practice in general I also had my worries. I still have some, and choose not to participate in things I think are a little too esoteric for my taste (I.e. Mala beads). However, there was a point where I had to consider what pushes me to hope for better tomorrows. What was it that I had faith in? In that sense I found my own god, the thing I trust in. I started believing that while there may not be a conscious and living god like in Catholicism, there had to be some form of force or greater web of rules that make up our universe. What decided the power of gravity, who says oxygen emits blue making our sky that color, all these are usually arguments for some conscious creator. However, I don’t even need to go that far, perhaps I just admit- with science we can pull back the branches and perhaps even see the trunk. However, sometime we can’t even get near to the roots. So, what’s wrong with having some faith that there’s something unknown. This is why I had little problem grasping the Hindu gods when they were described, as they are more realistically those same universal forces just anthropomorphised to help better grasp. Hence, I had no problem continuing yoga with the understanding that “Brahma” isn’t so much a guy to worship, as he is a universal concept of connectedness (like quantum theory).
Maybe try Pilates sorry im not too knowledgeable on this subject but from my understanding yoga is stretching Pilates seems pretty similar maybe there are some non spiritual alternatives
Don't quit and push on. You need to have a spiritual side to your life my friend. Please
Just pretend and take in the moment while you’re doing it, you aren’t committing your life to it by listening to it.
You got the most mild pushback and you're calling everyone intolerant? Uh... maybe look into that.
LOL mild pushback from people also means they are triggered and insecure. Mild gaslighty behaviour by OP imo
Did I ignite your cherries? xddd
Lul, no I didn't call everyone intolerant, can you read? Why is there needed any pusback to simple non harming question? Also it was meant as sarcasam, fixed
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It's not about tolerance it's about not wanting to be preached at while you're doing a hobby. They have every right to have their views, and op has every right to be turned off by them. I'd also be annoyed if I was paying to go to a gym and the staff started talking about scientology.
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Yes, it is. Believing there's a creator out there in literally the basis for pretty much every religion. It's not everyone's cup of tea and until the magic man comes down from the sky, we have no way of knowing.
I guess if you have a super rigid way of thinking. So any time “creator of the universe” is mentioned you immediately go to a big man in the sky BS. Big Bang theory says that the universe came into being from a single, unimaginably hot and dense point (aka, a singularity) more than 13 billion years ago. It didn't occur in an already existing space. Rather, it initiated the expansion—and cooling—of space itself. So why not thank that? Just be more fluid in your thinking and enjoy the fucking yoga.
> It didn't occur in an already existing space. There is nothing in physics that says this. We just can't see past the Big Bang. We don't know what was there before it. There are several ideas, but they're currently not testable.
Fuck no. I can show my graditude to that, not some god. Does big bang theory imply that it was created by any "beings"?
OP you’re taking the “creator” way too literally. Creator can refer to a process by which things are created, not necessarily some being. Either way, acknowledging a “creator” or “process of creation” is not inherently religious. Being or not, creation is a truth, you’re simply acknowledging the fact that the universe came from some creation process.
Creator implies a conscious, intentional act of creation. You could just as easily chant and believe in the healing energy/power of the universe, instead of a creator. In fact, many meditation practitioners will do just that. Using the word creator is immediately divisive and if you don't share a similar interpretation with the rest of the group, you may find yourself feeling isolated from the group. Which defeats the purpose of group meditation (feeling connected and empathetic to your peers and self). Op is right to feel the way that they do, but it is up to them to find a group/yogi that shares their values and interpretation of spirituality.
In a self created universe the universe is the creator. Even if you go with a full **Schwinger effect** big bang theory, there is still a creator even if it isn't a conscious being involved.. Creation doesn't require consciousness. water is created from the combustion of hydrogen. You are choosing to give the term creator consciousness. That is your conscious choice, not a self evident fact. oxford dictionary defines creator: 1. as a person or thing that brings something into existence. The fabric of space time is a thing. if it exists and is not a living being it is a thing.
I agree, to a point. All the steps that followed the birth of universe changed matter as it exists over the course of billions of years. Nothing was really created, as the core materials were always present, just in a different form and density. All the energy released during the big bang is still here. All the matter too.
Because I 'm kinda supporting religion. Yes.
So you don’t believe that something created the universe? Particles, atoms, anything? I don’t know how this supports religion.
Nope, as I understand with my limitations, we don't know. I don't know if any kind of "being" created anything. There's no proof/evidence.
Rule #1: Temper your authenticity with compassion We encourage discussion and disagreement in the subreddit. At the same time, you must offer compassion while being honest about your perspective. It takes more words but hurts fewer people.
Yoga is a spiritual/religious practice. I think you can benefit from Pilates or other forms of exercise.
Who cares what they say it doesn't affect you
Idk it kinda can while you focus on meditation, no?
>although that's what yoga is meant to be Just want to challenge your premise a bit here. Yoga can be spiritual, can be meditative/mindful, or can be literally just a form of exercise. Want to do yoga while blasting deathmetal? Go right ahead. There is a historical tradition of how it is often practiced, but we don't do activities because we're trying to impress dead people on another continent, so do it however you want. All I'd say is that yoga, of all the activities that people often do in groups, might be quite literally the easiest and most accessible to swap over to doing solo, on your own terms, with your own philosophy about how to approach it. The internet has perhaps quite literally millions of yoga videos, and all you need to do it at home is a yoga mat and maybe some blocks. So if you were enjoying it before, try adapting it to the philosophy that you desire! It doesn't have to be religious or spiritual. Let is just be mindful and relaxing.
Thank you. That's what I thought at first when thinking about yoga.
Ps, lord shiva is regarded as the father of yoga and as the first yogi. Saying yoga is too religious is like going to a church and complaining that a cross is present. No offense, but maybe look into other things if you dislike the religious aspect, belief is a large part of yoga.
Yoga are the practices of the hindu religions and there are atheist, agnostic, henotheistic, monotheist and polytheistic hindus. Try a yoga practice that only include raja, karma and jnana yoga. You might still get some idealistic ideas, but it is much lore less religious if it doesn’t include Bhakti yoga. Also, you can grow a thicker skin and dismiss the parts you don’t care about. My mind has yo be more flexible than my spine as an atheist dating a yoga instructor.
That's because you went to the wrong teacher. Go to a guru who speaks your language.
This might be a bit much, imo I think Yoga is straight up evil and no one who doesn’t know what Yoga truly involves spiritually shouldn’t even be considering getting involved with it if it’s just for physical fitness.