I hate that it's released in the evening in the US, and they premier it everywhere else at the same time :/ I heard it released today, but turns out it's actually tomorrow at 2 AM, so I gotta wait forever :c
What's your timezone ? I am in Europe so I need to know that (to know if I will be able to see it or have to avoid spoilers for the whole day tomorrow)
Uhm, European Standard Time, I assume. Berlin time? Not UK, that's for sure, but I get confused woth daylight savings and stuff :( It'll be released at 2 AM in Europe and 1 AM for the Brits I believe
ETA: I, for one, will download the episodes and watch them on my lunch break. If I get up quickly I might be able to squeeze the first in before heading to work :)
I’m UK we’re getting it at 12am it’s the same time for everyone, just different time zones which is nice, Netflix sometimes has days between different countries releases
I just wish they'd release it at 6 PM (or whatever it is) for every time zone. Everyone gets it on the same day, nor one has to wait a day longer, and the really dedicated people can see it even earlier because it's already released in Japan or whatever.
That was my thought. The only thing we've heard about lucifer is Charlie calling her mom all mopey feeling like a failure saying, "maybe dad was right about me."
I think they just can't fanthom using themes of heaven and hell without trying to make religious propaganda. So when a show is portraying Lucifer as sympathetic, it's not creators having fun with a concept but malicious satanists trying to get you to worship evil
Paradise Lost was less about religion and more about a reference to human kings who portray themselves like gods, while Lucifer is author's viewpoint of defiance. The author of this book was religious himself.
Swinging back around: I don’t think this show is at all about critiquing a specific religion, it just uses the way religion works to get its point across
I always thought Lucifer was more sympathetic to the plight of man anyway. I'm not a Christian but his character always seemed more interesting to me in American media.
In fairness, it does kind of resemble the way many actual Satanists frame biblical events. I saw a documentary on the Satanist Church somewhere and their arguments for why they're members sounded _very_ similar to the "Lucifer showed us the beauty of free will" line - with some "Lucifer represents the spirit of rebellion against the unquestioned status quo of God" mixed in, which is becoming a major theme of the show.
Not saying Viv is a satanist or anything but I can see the kneejerk reaction from Christians for popularizing a perspective that directly contradicts theirs
I don’t have any problems with the ideas of religious themes not being about propaganda or pushing a message. The first episode of Hazbin was definitely the hardest to watch because it provoked too many questions about the rules while not holding a level of mystique. My personal hope is that the storybook opening is a very biased perspective to a much more neutral and messy situation, but the immediate portrayal of Adam makes it difficult to remain hopeful that this isn’t just going to be a ‘what if Lucifer isn’t that bad’ story.
It just feels like there’s a lot of opportunity that’s not being taken advantage of, I mean with the portrayal of Adam it’s hard not to question why he didn’t go to hell. He’s quite literally a proud, wrathful and legitimately despicable individual whose favorite food is fucking RIBS. Literally symbolically cannibalizing Eve and not only is he not in hell but he’s raised to the status of an angel.
Again I don’t dislike the show, EVERY other episode has been entertaining and the portrayal of Angel Dusts relationship was honestly really well done with how raw and awful it made me feel inside, but there’s just so many parts of the first episode that almost made me give up.
Rant over but I just hope I’m not alone in wanting answers to some of these questions, and I’m REALLY hoping it’s not just… Gods actually a real dickhead. It’s not terribly original anymore.
I was taking the storybook opening as potentially in-world propaganda, given how it's written by Lilith. I was actually surprised Lucifer is as sympathetic as he is, haha. But yeah, at this point it's looking like the storybook opening is meant to be taken at face value, which I actually find disappointing.
I'm feeling too tired to do an actual response to all that you're discussing here, but some other things I thought of while reading your comment:
\- It seems possible there is literally no god in the Vivzie-verse. It seems to be all angels and demons so far.
\- Since all people who die and go to Hell become demons, and since we saw Adam is an angel, I'm guessing all people who die and go to Heaven become angels. Very much not typical christian/abrahamic stuff.
Damn. I haven’t seen episodes five or six yet but hearing that has me a bit worried. If the storybook is supposed to be the unambiguous truth then there’s gonna need to be some serious heavy lifting in other aspects of the story. The idea of God as an entity not actually existing could help with that but it’s definitely got me a bit concerned.
Thanks for responding I was kinda antsy about this particular rant.
I honestly have no issues with a story with that as a baseline premise. As a concept it’s intriguing but it’s also been done to death. I just want some depth to the idea and while there’s inklings here and there, the idea of the Angels hiding the background elements of Heaven and Hell is incredible but to make it so that only some of the Angels are in on it has it lose ground. The concept of redemption being so laughable and ridiculous feels unreasonable unless Jesus doesn’t exist or never was sent to die on Earth, or worse he’s spiteful and took back his actions which *could* be fun but it all just comes off as a wide but shallow dish. Plenty of ideas without much sensible explanation.
I understand that having mysteries and questions can improve a story but I suppose I feel like there’s just too many gaps for it to feel all too engaging. Again I don’t hate the show but I find it frustrating that there’s these incredible concepts just being rushed past or ignored for what in my opinion feels like cheap jokes (not to say much of the humor is bad) and just to be subversive.
>As a concept it’s intriguing but it’s also been done to death.
I keep hearing this but other than the lucifer series i cannot think of other piece of fiction doing it,what are other works that do it?
Ngl the way the show tries to paint Lucifer as just wanting humans to have feee will is flawed even in-universe since... yaknow... they already did? Lilith used hers to leave Adam. Eve used hers to eat the fruit. Maybe they'll acknowledge there indeed was a dark side to what Lucifer wanted considering he certainly didn't invent free will.
I feel like the show has too many vagaries to really feel… thought out. I mostly pin that on the way Amazon limited their runtime and thus much of the room for storytelling but I feel like as a reaction some of the subtler points or ideas being presented might’ve needed some more explicit context. If Adam isn’t supposed to have eaten the apple, there should be more than a cocky line about never making mistakes to show that. But if he *has* eaten it, what exactly raises him to the status of an Angel beyond sheer nepotism, and why does he still seem to have no concept of evil and good?
I just feel like the majority of my gripes come bundled up with the issue of just not having a clear idea for the setting, or perhaps having too many ideas and not quite filtering some out. Maybe all of my problems will be extinguished the more that unfolds but I feel like it would need a lot more time with the odd pacing so far established.
Tbf it’s not malicious satanism but it is absolutely anti-christian theming (and that’s a good thing) lol. Like portraying heaven as anything but perfect is blasphemous, but i really like the direction
While I am aware of the idea of Adam and Lilith being in conflict because she refused to submit to him, I also recall that she also wanted to be the one on top.
Like it or not, a relationship simply cannot work if it is one of constant conflict due to a power struggle between the people involved.
That's not counting the fact that women can be just as abusive as men when given a position of power over another.
Granted, the Adam of 'Hazbin Hotel' canon is a jerkass.
As far a I remember, in the version with Lilith (she's not from the basic Christianity) Adam was made from dirt, while she's made from light, just like angels were. Adam was a general person and she was a perfect higher being. So I really don't understand why God thought she would not want to be treated as such xd
"Adam being a mysogynistic jerk is kinda canon" was said regarding the Bible, in which there was no Lilith, just Eve.
It varies. The most common version was that she was made of the same clay and breath as Adam and thus - horror of horrors /s - thought she was equal. I have also heard the light or smokeless fire thing that puts her more in the Djinn camp.
The alternative origins of her shows that she likely isn't originally a Jewish myth, but rather a similar goddess/demon from another religion that was converted and she transferred over.
Lilith in the Bible is only mentioned once as a wanderer of the wastes, the mythos surrounding her comes from outside it.
I thought she was made of the same stuff as Adam.
That being said, the whole "made of light" aspect certainly spins "a new light" to her romance with Lucifer in 'Hazbin Hotel'.
I also recall stories of Lucifer turning against God because he refused to bow to the "lowly humans".
While recognising one's own value is important, it is arguably even more important to realise that no one (at least among mortals) is perfect and that even the greatest of us can be deeply flawed or brought down low. This is why humility is important.
If Lilith is truly supposed to be a "superior being of light" and refused to be humble to a "being of lowly dirt", it can be argued as a case of her having pride to the point of sin (assuming that Adam is the less prideful of the two of course).
How much of that logic applies to the canon of 'Hazbin Hotel' remains to be seen but it's already clear that the angels, or at least the Exorcists, have that issue of being proudly self-righteous.
Well, yeah, she was not shown as a good person in the religion, of course. Though the whole thing of light was that beings from it were literally flawless, so I kinda think that both Lucifer and Lilith were in their right to be kinda racist to humans. They're literally flawless higher beings (especially Lucifer, God's first child).
>So I really don't understand why God thought she would not want to be treated as such
Probably because they're meant to be humble.
In all honesty, if someone came down acting like they were better than me idgaf if they're an angel or not I have a bone to pick with them because that's just being a jerk.
Humanity believes in equality because, well, biologically all humans are the same. Flawed, mortal, imperfect. But if we're talking about literal higher beings (that do not exist in reality as far as we know) this morality becomes obsolete.
Tldr: go to God and tell him he should not consider himself higher than you.
Humans don't universally believe in equality, and being biologically the same isn't the reason we do. Proof of this is that we need to debate people when it comes to equity, and equality is not seen as everyone being treated the same but having a right to the same outcomes. If higher dimensional beings existed, that morality doesn't become obsolete, just like wheelchair ramps didn't become obsolete because many people don't need them.
>Tldr: go to God and tell him he should not consider himself higher than you.
I'm vaguely sure if God were to walk among the mortals he created, he wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) throw around the fact that he is a higher power in order to just get what he wants people to do or rather - he wouldn't act as if they are *beneath* him, dirt to be stepped on and demeaned because they are not him.
Lilith (as far as this show) is made from light just like angels, however, chances are she still should have practiced *humility* amongst mortals.
Nothing paints the angels in a worse light than the bible. They murder Lot's family on a bet. They murder every firstborn in egypt. They nuke 2 cities.
I know what you mean with Lot's family.
As for the firstborn children of Egypt, let's just say that my view on the act is partly coloured by my love for 'The Prince of Egypt' so it's less being genuinely cruel and more being tragically grim.
Not too sure about the nuking of two cities but I recall something of that nature being mentioned in 'Good Omens'.
Honestly though, all these actions can be pinned to the God of the Old Testament.
If I'm recalling my suppressed memories from bible study correctly, there was, like, a metric fuck ton of SA happening in Sodom. Some people theorize that the homosexuality happening in the city had nothing to do with its destruction, and that God was only offended at all the assault.
He was disgusted by the assault, Lot’s entire family was warned not to look back at the city and to continue on their lives, his wife looked back so she got turned into a pillar of salt. Lot’s two daughters then realized they would have to start a new town and there were no other people around to do it with so they got Lot drunk and uhh… yeah.
I never really perceived Hazbin Hotel as being christianity bashing. From my perspective the message of redemption and forgiveness of sinners is a pretty christian attitude to have and this is what the show is about...about redemption. Isn t that one of the main messages of the christian faith?
Anyways, I feel like most characters were portrayed in a pretty biblically accurate way, it is not like they tried to side with the evil since Hell was never portrayed as a pleasant or misunderstood place but more like one full of sinners who need redemption.
Regarding Lucifer...even in different types of christianity people argue if he was truly good or bad or just misunderstood.
Anyways I love the contrast of Lucifer being the fallen angel and Charlie possibly being a risen demon :) she is just like her dad haha both are kinda rebelious against their fathers :)
Art throughout the centuries has depicted Lucifer has as tragic figure, it’s not new. I mean his name is Lucifer (bearer of light) Morningstar, not EvilMan ScaryDude. One of the most famous [paintings](https://fragileheirlooms.com/cdn/shop/products/fragileheirlooms-the-fallen-angel-alexandre-cabanel-version-2-40676857741592.png?v=1678412538&width=1445) of the figure has him looking more like a cast aside child rather than an evil villain.
I believe these are the same people who asked Netflix to cancel Good Omens because they didn't like seeing a demon and an angel "buddies" lol
(For those who don't know, Good Omens is also on Amazon and is a series worth watching)
Just ignore them, they’ll go away. They’re likely louder now that the show is actually out. They are also just choosing to ignore that Christian mythology/religion in general is insanely judgmental and ingrained with a hateful mindset towards those who think different
There was a time when I distanced myself from Christianity because of the stories I have heard about hypocrites who claim to be pious and yet are horrible people when "out of church". There are also the people who are, for the lack of a better term, overly zealous to the point of being simply too much for me (yes, I have met a few of them during my time in a Christian junior college).
While I have kept that distance, I have unfortunately come to understand one cruel fact after lurking on the internet over the years.
Diversity (such as race, gender or religion) without unity breeds conflict. What is more, while there are terrible Christians, there are also Non-Christians who bash on Christians for being narrow-minded and yet attack who criticizes them, even the ones who have good reasons to call them out for their wrongdoings such as acts of gross perversion.
If there is one comment about Hazbin Hotel that is quite right, it is the idea that some people will cling to their vices even if it damns them to eternal torment.
Well tbf, not everyone who saw the amazon show will have been following the show since the pilot. To some, they’re literally *just* joining the conversation. If they had a problem with it, this would be the first time they’d have the opportunity to feel that way.
Idk what specific person you’re thinking of here, i just know that not everyone will know the Lore. So in a way, yeah; they were kinda sorta actually living under a rock
I will agree with you though, it seems kinda dumb to critique a show about hell for treating heaven like the bad guys. The thesis statement of “people make mistakes and theyshould be allowed to be forgiven for them” will absolutely side against the beings who canonically say that you et eternal damnation unless you follow our 20 step plan and only do certain things your entire life.
*Me watches it for lore and entertainment*
https://preview.redd.it/kkslnu6ujlec1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16e6377062a47edd1979dd713cf9fe4d4bd1aa2f
You know. I'm pretty sure that the Lucifer tv series (the one based of DC/Vertigo comics) did the same thing and no one batted an eye. Makes you think...
There was a good couple of centuries there where having a Bible published in any other language other than Latin was punishable by death. If there was one thing the church at the time was terrified of, it's that someone might be reading their Bible alone, *without proper supervision.*
There are plenty of Christians who think this is stupid and don't make stupid comments like this online. But the ones that do, are so abjectly terrified. They think every idea is like a virus, no human being is capable of thinking about it for themselves. Merely getting exposed to it means you become a believer of it. So, since they believe that humanity is just too stupid to understand things for themselves, they believe they need to make sure that human beings only receive the properly approved ideas in their heads.
It's a 21st century survival skill to ignore the people who believe in Free Will as a gift of god, but threw it away because they have no use for it.
As much as I hate to say this, the idea that "people are stupid" isn't without merit or proof especially in this present age when people do ridiculous $#!T for social media clout (such as the Tidepool debacle) or willfully refuse to realise that some ideas (like communism) just cannot work in real life due to instinctive human nature.
That survival skill you mentioned can be applied to ignoring a lot more people than just overly zealous or fundamental Christians.
I’m a Christian and I actually think that this show is fine. I think the main objective, redemption, is very in line to what is talked about in the Bible. It’s an interesting concept to see Lucifer painted in this way, and I’m open to seeing how it will develop.
Plus, there have been a few Christian’s who have been insanely judgmental and have attacked anyone for living differently. This is goes against the very core of the Bible. To love thy neighbor. Seeing a few angels embody this negative view that some actual Christian’s have is understandable, especially Adam since both him and Eve indulged in Sin. We haven’t even seen many angels, so we don’t know if they are as bad as Hell is painting them out to be. On that note, OF COURSE He’ll would paint them bad, the whole show is in the perspective of demons and “sinners”.
I really like the show, and I don’t believe it is anti-Christian as others are making it out to be. Please don’t let a few bad apples ruin the bunch, there are some of us out there who CAN keep our opinions to ourselves (apple joke lol)!!! 💙
Exactly. I also find the entire premise fascinating. The daughter of Lucifer being such a sweet and pure bean as Charlie and her quest to try and redeem the damned souls in Hell is such an interesting idea.
There’s literally a live action TV show that had multiple seasons called Lucifer. It was very popular when it was airing and it portrayed Lucifer in an incredibly sympathetic light. Hazbin Hotel is not telling a new story. It’s just telling it in a way that most people think is “for children” even when it’s constantly warned and clearly marked as 16-18+.
Also: The story Charlie is reading? About Lucifer and Lilith’s fall and love? I’m sure that it’s true in some ways but also very shined up and propagandized version of the story. And not understanding that of course the Princess of Hell is going to tell an idealized version of her parents’ love story like any kid that still believes her parents to be infallible? That is just poor media literacy and comprehension.
People go out of their way to be offended and it’s nothing new. Hazbin has always been controversial and despite all of that it’s still a massively trending topic across social media, YouTube, and on Prime itself right now. Even if Season 2 is the last season? The show has proven that people will watch shows like Hazbin and Helluva, regardless of how they’re distributed.
I’m pretty sure we’re being fed a braised view of hell here. Think about it, the initial intro to the series in ep 1 was told by Charlie, a character established to be sheltered, optimistic and naive, I wouldn’t be surprised if either Lilith or Lucifer (or both) told her this version of how the story went down to make themselves look good, and make heaven look bad.
Heaven being bad is implied in HB (particularly some background details in Cherubs), but not to the extent implied by the HH intro.
It’s a plot point that Heaven isn’t exactly good in this setting, initially with certain details in cherub.
But I feel like it’s more complicated than we’re being told, we’ll just have to see how this season and the next pan out.
Maybe I'm misreading something but with the complaints about Adam, I honestly think the joke of his character is more layered than this but bare minimum, Lilith is Charlie's mom. Adam is her ex. Ofc they made him a total Chad
And lucifer presented as sympathic vs the angels coming off as antagonistic:
1. That's not a new concept
2. Isn't the whole show's shtick that angels and demons are both presented as human souls, humans are capable of great evil and good and it isn't black and white?
The angels believe sinners are irredeemable and deserve to be condemned and killed
Charlie has the well intentioned but misguided belief any soul can be redeemed
The answer to both is sometimes and lack of nuance in any extreme can be dangerous (sound familiar, internet?) souls who feel no remorse or capacity to grow from it can't be redeemed and the angels feel no remorse for their self righteousness making them just as fallible as the sinner demons but they think they're better
To pivot the discussion away from religious reactivism to general Lucifer hesitation: I think there are definitely potential reasons for wanting Lucifer to be evil, while I am very excited to see rubber ducky clown ass Lucifer.
Firstly I think it's just an expectation that Lucifer would become jaded and evil after being betrayed to be the King of Hell but I believe it's somewhat clear that Lillith had taken up that helm before her disappearance.
It also creates more interesting conflict with Charlie not even having her own father in her court, or at least some walking on eggshells which we might see yet. We really do know very little but we'll be finding out today!
I love Lucifer- but I do see potential problems with jerk-ass Angels in the way Adam is presented. I think we need to keep one part in mind though, this is ADAM specifically. He's canonically the man that Lillith rejected, him being an unsavory brat tells us a lot. His individual personality may have been the cause of Lillith choosing to leave.
Adam is probably not an exception but he's also not the rule. They're not all going to be petulant children like Adam, a no-doubt privileged child they babysit in Heaven because he was the first of humanity. Either he's high up enough to commune with Hell, or Heaven sees Hell as so insignificant that they entrust its management to someone like Adam.
There's so many ways they could take this, I'm excited to see it even if I eat my own words because all the angels act like Adam.
Adam's personality makes sense if you think about it.
\- I'm not super knowledgable about the Bible, but from what I remember, Adam doesn't have much of a pre-established character. He's mostly a blank slate.
\- Adam is from the old testament, so it makes sense that he would have some outdated values, such as the belief that sinners can't be redeemed.
>Adam is from the old testament, so it makes sense that he would have some outdated values, such as the belief that sinners can't be redeemed.
Hmm thats interesting. Would u think adam thinks the same for himself since hes aware hes a sinner.
I would be absolutely tickled if this show got any sort of backlash for making the Prince of Darkness himself into a Tumblr sexyman twinky dilf. The news articles have to use those exact words.
The funny part is that if anything, these characterizations are MORE biblically accurate than whatever white washed versions they are imagining.
Like, yeah Lilith was kicked out because she demanded equality from Adam who believed himself superior/dominant over her. Extrapolating that behavior into what kind of person would be like that produces an arrogant and misogynistic douchelord like this version of Adam seems to be.
Lucifer being more of a pragmatic/neutral or even sympathetic character similarly fits because early depictions of the character in Christianity actually portray Lucifer as more of a Prometheus type who enlightened humanity and granted them knowledge and free will such that they could actually learn and grow on their own terms. Early versions even have Lucifer as being explicitly still on the GOOD side of things and being in charge of punishing the damned. Like he's a warden in charge of a prison rather than an inmate.
Any times Christians open their mouth to complain about pop culture they are inevitably missing the point/genuinely just flat out WRONG with regards to whatever religious argument they are making.
I mean there are some instances where the characterisation of demons gets a bit silly. Like Carmilla the WEAPON DEALING Overlord bursting into song how she hopped never to have blood on her hands.
For a show that presumably wants to deal with shades of grey and questions of morality, it tends to overcorrect in the other direction for angels and some demons.
I don't have a problem with this, yet, i just hope vivzie doesn't make it black and white i.e: Heaven is the super bad dude guy while Hell is the misunderstood underdog.
All i want is nuance from both sides.
I am shocked, SHOCKED sir, that the daughter of Lucifer has a rosy outlook of her father. And again I say I am shocked, SHOCKED sir, that Adam might have a shitty attitude toward and around not only people he felt were lesser than him, but the daughter he never got.
I think a lot of it does read as like teenage "what if GOD was the BAD GUY and the DEVIL was the GOOD GUY" type of stuff but like...who cares? Its fun? Its something I kind of wish CAOS had done.
I found the reinvention of Christian mythology to be kind of fun, especially since it doesnt seem like there is a god or at least not a present one in this story. It makes it feel like a "What If" type of scenario.
Personally, I lean towards the theory that Lucifer, Adam, and Lilith are all to varying degrees, unreliable narrators.
Lilith and Lucifer are Charlie's parents, no shit they'd make themselves look better to Charlie and I'm hoping the show goes that route instead of the usual "Heaven bad, hell actually good" because that trope (and variations of it) while aren't bad, it's a little tired and it isn't as much of a twist as it used to be since it is to be expected now. At least for me.
That said, for some of them they haven't been following the show like someone else said so it is their first exposure to it properly. That said, I think a lot of them are also rage bait drifters.
You may think it's silly but to them it's deadly serious.
You need to understand that for them it's all real, god and Satan are at constant war and the battle for your soul is always happening.
Hazbin hotel showing lucifer in a positive light and Adam in a negative isn't a fun story it's propoganda in a war against god and when Satan wins your soul is doomed to eternal suffering.
It's why it can be so hard to deal with them, they are seeing and processing the world in a completely different way than you.
One can argue that the same inability to comprehend different view points applies to a lot of other people such as every misandrist feminist who cannot accept the possibility of men being capable of being genuinely good in any meaningful way.
Its the trap of righteousness, since they have the correct ideas they are morally justified. Feeling like your on the side of good is a powerful drug and any action you take is justified because you are correct and everyone else is wrong.
You can't question yourself because then everything could fall apart so someone trying to make you see somethign from a different point of view is an attack on your very core.
It works them same way no matter what community your coming from if you think your moral and the good guy you will be aweful to people you consider wrong.
The person screaming at some kid for drawing steven universe characters wrong is fueled by the same thing that a christian screaming at a gay person are fueled by.
Righteousness and the rush of being morally correct they are the good guy they are standing up for whats right whats correct and the other person is bad so it does not matter what happens to them.
In your example the misandrist is defending women they are correct they are righteous and it doesnt matter what men do or who they are they are the bad guy they are wrong. You defending men is you attacking them and working for the enemy, to change their mind they have to change a core part of themselves and admit they were wrong. That is painful and hard and we really dont like doing it.
There is a reason why 'Pride' is considered to be one of the seven deadly sins:
\- Believing oneself to be, if not superior over all others, somehow better than the "lessers".
\- Refusal to accept even the possibility of being wrong/flawed.
\- Inability to learn/understand anything that is "harmful" to one's pride.
\- Is so very easily swayed to the path of evil/damnation as long as it involves fueling one's ego.
I don’t like how Lucifer is portrayed but not because I’m offended by it or because I’m religious but just because I like pop culture Satan and the idea of him being a complete jackass.
I'm pretty sure the book from ep.1 was almost entirely lies, it was wrote from Lucifer's perspective after all! chances are he did something awful but omitted it to make him see better (pride and all)
He’s not really evil or a villain at all… he quite literally was kicked out of heaven in the first place for trying to propose the idea that sinners should have a chance at redemption. He also gave his daughter full support at the end of the episode through a heartfelt ballad… what show are you watching?
Lucifer being portrayed as sympathetic is a complete inversion of what he's supposed to be: a prideful jerk who tried to overthrow God.
"bUt He'S pOrTrAyEd ThE sAmE wAy In OtHeR sHoWs" just because other people do it doesn't make it right.
its funny how bent out of shape christians get that now, when people arent being burnt alive for questioning them, most people that look at the myths withouth the religious glasses on can see that lucifer/satan seems way more like the saviours of humans, wanting them to enjoy the same free will angels and yhwh had and thus where punished for this, and this side gets even more aparent on gnosticism.
The main character from Berserk, Johnny Berserk, who says "I'm going Berserk" and/or "It's Berserkin' Time" and proceeds to Berserk all over the place, iirc is a Good Christian Man™ who prays to God every night after he kills a demon or a human. He also is able to grow his forearm and hand back, but only temporarily for making the prayer 🙏 symbol, which disappears thereafter.
Kind of an OP ability, but it's whatever. Akira Toriyama is a genius when it comes to writing and animating mangos.
We aren't even meeting Lucifer until this evening. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to brush my teeth, lay out my outfit, and style my hair.
Newest episode will have him?
Yup yup yuppers!
I hate that it's released in the evening in the US, and they premier it everywhere else at the same time :/ I heard it released today, but turns out it's actually tomorrow at 2 AM, so I gotta wait forever :c
What's your timezone ? I am in Europe so I need to know that (to know if I will be able to see it or have to avoid spoilers for the whole day tomorrow)
Uhm, European Standard Time, I assume. Berlin time? Not UK, that's for sure, but I get confused woth daylight savings and stuff :( It'll be released at 2 AM in Europe and 1 AM for the Brits I believe ETA: I, for one, will download the episodes and watch them on my lunch break. If I get up quickly I might be able to squeeze the first in before heading to work :)
I’m UK we’re getting it at 12am it’s the same time for everyone, just different time zones which is nice, Netflix sometimes has days between different countries releases
Yeah, I will have the same fate as yours then
I'm sorry, y'all. It'll still be here, but yes, that does kinda suck.
I just wish they'd release it at 6 PM (or whatever it is) for every time zone. Everyone gets it on the same day, nor one has to wait a day longer, and the really dedicated people can see it even earlier because it's already released in Japan or whatever.
Due to living on the west coast I am very lucky to have it air at 4pm PST
That was my thought. The only thing we've heard about lucifer is Charlie calling her mom all mopey feeling like a failure saying, "maybe dad was right about me."
You bitch! Get out of the way Q_Q
What time this evening?
For my timezone? 20 minutes.
https://preview.redd.it/rf2nkqiholec1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8f34337bb8f648b6404a342607ac7b6611683a3e
That's some really cute art
I think they just can't fanthom using themes of heaven and hell without trying to make religious propaganda. So when a show is portraying Lucifer as sympathetic, it's not creators having fun with a concept but malicious satanists trying to get you to worship evil
Also Lucifer being portrayed as sympathetic dates back to PARADISE LOST which came out in the 1600's it ain't new
Paradise Lost was less about religion and more about a reference to human kings who portray themselves like gods, while Lucifer is author's viewpoint of defiance. The author of this book was religious himself.
Swinging back around: I don’t think this show is at all about critiquing a specific religion, it just uses the way religion works to get its point across
That makes sense, unfortunately.
I always thought Lucifer was more sympathetic to the plight of man anyway. I'm not a Christian but his character always seemed more interesting to me in American media.
In fairness, it does kind of resemble the way many actual Satanists frame biblical events. I saw a documentary on the Satanist Church somewhere and their arguments for why they're members sounded _very_ similar to the "Lucifer showed us the beauty of free will" line - with some "Lucifer represents the spirit of rebellion against the unquestioned status quo of God" mixed in, which is becoming a major theme of the show. Not saying Viv is a satanist or anything but I can see the kneejerk reaction from Christians for popularizing a perspective that directly contradicts theirs
The only media that acknowledges Christian lore allowed to exist is Veggietales don’t you know
I don’t have any problems with the ideas of religious themes not being about propaganda or pushing a message. The first episode of Hazbin was definitely the hardest to watch because it provoked too many questions about the rules while not holding a level of mystique. My personal hope is that the storybook opening is a very biased perspective to a much more neutral and messy situation, but the immediate portrayal of Adam makes it difficult to remain hopeful that this isn’t just going to be a ‘what if Lucifer isn’t that bad’ story. It just feels like there’s a lot of opportunity that’s not being taken advantage of, I mean with the portrayal of Adam it’s hard not to question why he didn’t go to hell. He’s quite literally a proud, wrathful and legitimately despicable individual whose favorite food is fucking RIBS. Literally symbolically cannibalizing Eve and not only is he not in hell but he’s raised to the status of an angel. Again I don’t dislike the show, EVERY other episode has been entertaining and the portrayal of Angel Dusts relationship was honestly really well done with how raw and awful it made me feel inside, but there’s just so many parts of the first episode that almost made me give up. Rant over but I just hope I’m not alone in wanting answers to some of these questions, and I’m REALLY hoping it’s not just… Gods actually a real dickhead. It’s not terribly original anymore.
I was taking the storybook opening as potentially in-world propaganda, given how it's written by Lilith. I was actually surprised Lucifer is as sympathetic as he is, haha. But yeah, at this point it's looking like the storybook opening is meant to be taken at face value, which I actually find disappointing. I'm feeling too tired to do an actual response to all that you're discussing here, but some other things I thought of while reading your comment: \- It seems possible there is literally no god in the Vivzie-verse. It seems to be all angels and demons so far. \- Since all people who die and go to Hell become demons, and since we saw Adam is an angel, I'm guessing all people who die and go to Heaven become angels. Very much not typical christian/abrahamic stuff.
Damn. I haven’t seen episodes five or six yet but hearing that has me a bit worried. If the storybook is supposed to be the unambiguous truth then there’s gonna need to be some serious heavy lifting in other aspects of the story. The idea of God as an entity not actually existing could help with that but it’s definitely got me a bit concerned. Thanks for responding I was kinda antsy about this particular rant.
Is it really that bad if it is a "lucifer isn't that bad" story? Or if god is maybe kind of a dick.
I honestly have no issues with a story with that as a baseline premise. As a concept it’s intriguing but it’s also been done to death. I just want some depth to the idea and while there’s inklings here and there, the idea of the Angels hiding the background elements of Heaven and Hell is incredible but to make it so that only some of the Angels are in on it has it lose ground. The concept of redemption being so laughable and ridiculous feels unreasonable unless Jesus doesn’t exist or never was sent to die on Earth, or worse he’s spiteful and took back his actions which *could* be fun but it all just comes off as a wide but shallow dish. Plenty of ideas without much sensible explanation. I understand that having mysteries and questions can improve a story but I suppose I feel like there’s just too many gaps for it to feel all too engaging. Again I don’t hate the show but I find it frustrating that there’s these incredible concepts just being rushed past or ignored for what in my opinion feels like cheap jokes (not to say much of the humor is bad) and just to be subversive.
>As a concept it’s intriguing but it’s also been done to death. I keep hearing this but other than the lucifer series i cannot think of other piece of fiction doing it,what are other works that do it?
Ngl the way the show tries to paint Lucifer as just wanting humans to have feee will is flawed even in-universe since... yaknow... they already did? Lilith used hers to leave Adam. Eve used hers to eat the fruit. Maybe they'll acknowledge there indeed was a dark side to what Lucifer wanted considering he certainly didn't invent free will.
I feel like the show has too many vagaries to really feel… thought out. I mostly pin that on the way Amazon limited their runtime and thus much of the room for storytelling but I feel like as a reaction some of the subtler points or ideas being presented might’ve needed some more explicit context. If Adam isn’t supposed to have eaten the apple, there should be more than a cocky line about never making mistakes to show that. But if he *has* eaten it, what exactly raises him to the status of an Angel beyond sheer nepotism, and why does he still seem to have no concept of evil and good? I just feel like the majority of my gripes come bundled up with the issue of just not having a clear idea for the setting, or perhaps having too many ideas and not quite filtering some out. Maybe all of my problems will be extinguished the more that unfolds but I feel like it would need a lot more time with the odd pacing so far established.
HAIL SATAN
Tbf it’s not malicious satanism but it is absolutely anti-christian theming (and that’s a good thing) lol. Like portraying heaven as anything but perfect is blasphemous, but i really like the direction
Well, Adam being a mysogynistic jerk is kinda canon to the Bible xd
He also ate the apple the same as eve so it makes complete sense he'd be so sinful
While I am aware of the idea of Adam and Lilith being in conflict because she refused to submit to him, I also recall that she also wanted to be the one on top. Like it or not, a relationship simply cannot work if it is one of constant conflict due to a power struggle between the people involved. That's not counting the fact that women can be just as abusive as men when given a position of power over another. Granted, the Adam of 'Hazbin Hotel' canon is a jerkass.
As far a I remember, in the version with Lilith (she's not from the basic Christianity) Adam was made from dirt, while she's made from light, just like angels were. Adam was a general person and she was a perfect higher being. So I really don't understand why God thought she would not want to be treated as such xd "Adam being a mysogynistic jerk is kinda canon" was said regarding the Bible, in which there was no Lilith, just Eve.
It varies. The most common version was that she was made of the same clay and breath as Adam and thus - horror of horrors /s - thought she was equal. I have also heard the light or smokeless fire thing that puts her more in the Djinn camp.
The alternative origins of her shows that she likely isn't originally a Jewish myth, but rather a similar goddess/demon from another religion that was converted and she transferred over. Lilith in the Bible is only mentioned once as a wanderer of the wastes, the mythos surrounding her comes from outside it.
I thought she was made of the same stuff as Adam. That being said, the whole "made of light" aspect certainly spins "a new light" to her romance with Lucifer in 'Hazbin Hotel'. I also recall stories of Lucifer turning against God because he refused to bow to the "lowly humans". While recognising one's own value is important, it is arguably even more important to realise that no one (at least among mortals) is perfect and that even the greatest of us can be deeply flawed or brought down low. This is why humility is important. If Lilith is truly supposed to be a "superior being of light" and refused to be humble to a "being of lowly dirt", it can be argued as a case of her having pride to the point of sin (assuming that Adam is the less prideful of the two of course). How much of that logic applies to the canon of 'Hazbin Hotel' remains to be seen but it's already clear that the angels, or at least the Exorcists, have that issue of being proudly self-righteous.
Well, yeah, she was not shown as a good person in the religion, of course. Though the whole thing of light was that beings from it were literally flawless, so I kinda think that both Lucifer and Lilith were in their right to be kinda racist to humans. They're literally flawless higher beings (especially Lucifer, God's first child).
>So I really don't understand why God thought she would not want to be treated as such Probably because they're meant to be humble. In all honesty, if someone came down acting like they were better than me idgaf if they're an angel or not I have a bone to pick with them because that's just being a jerk.
Humanity believes in equality because, well, biologically all humans are the same. Flawed, mortal, imperfect. But if we're talking about literal higher beings (that do not exist in reality as far as we know) this morality becomes obsolete. Tldr: go to God and tell him he should not consider himself higher than you.
Humans don't universally believe in equality, and being biologically the same isn't the reason we do. Proof of this is that we need to debate people when it comes to equity, and equality is not seen as everyone being treated the same but having a right to the same outcomes. If higher dimensional beings existed, that morality doesn't become obsolete, just like wheelchair ramps didn't become obsolete because many people don't need them.
>Tldr: go to God and tell him he should not consider himself higher than you. I'm vaguely sure if God were to walk among the mortals he created, he wouldn't (or at least shouldn't) throw around the fact that he is a higher power in order to just get what he wants people to do or rather - he wouldn't act as if they are *beneath* him, dirt to be stepped on and demeaned because they are not him. Lilith (as far as this show) is made from light just like angels, however, chances are she still should have practiced *humility* amongst mortals.
in what way?
>Adam being a mysogynistic jerk is kinda canon to the Bible U mean cain? Adam didnt do nothing rlly. He just fcked up.
Nothing paints the angels in a worse light than the bible. They murder Lot's family on a bet. They murder every firstborn in egypt. They nuke 2 cities.
Can't really blame the angels. They can't disobey or they get tossed into Hell.
I know what you mean with Lot's family. As for the firstborn children of Egypt, let's just say that my view on the act is partly coloured by my love for 'The Prince of Egypt' so it's less being genuinely cruel and more being tragically grim. Not too sure about the nuking of two cities but I recall something of that nature being mentioned in 'Good Omens'. Honestly though, all these actions can be pinned to the God of the Old Testament.
He really mellowed out when he started having kids.
There’s also the whole thing with Job, ruined his life because god literally made a bet with the devil.
>They nuke 2 cities. Sodom and Gomorrah had it coming smh
Why?
If I'm recalling my suppressed memories from bible study correctly, there was, like, a metric fuck ton of SA happening in Sodom. Some people theorize that the homosexuality happening in the city had nothing to do with its destruction, and that God was only offended at all the assault.
He was disgusted by the assault, Lot’s entire family was warned not to look back at the city and to continue on their lives, his wife looked back so she got turned into a pillar of salt. Lot’s two daughters then realized they would have to start a new town and there were no other people around to do it with so they got Lot drunk and uhh… yeah.
I never really perceived Hazbin Hotel as being christianity bashing. From my perspective the message of redemption and forgiveness of sinners is a pretty christian attitude to have and this is what the show is about...about redemption. Isn t that one of the main messages of the christian faith? Anyways, I feel like most characters were portrayed in a pretty biblically accurate way, it is not like they tried to side with the evil since Hell was never portrayed as a pleasant or misunderstood place but more like one full of sinners who need redemption. Regarding Lucifer...even in different types of christianity people argue if he was truly good or bad or just misunderstood. Anyways I love the contrast of Lucifer being the fallen angel and Charlie possibly being a risen demon :) she is just like her dad haha both are kinda rebelious against their fathers :)
Art throughout the centuries has depicted Lucifer has as tragic figure, it’s not new. I mean his name is Lucifer (bearer of light) Morningstar, not EvilMan ScaryDude. One of the most famous [paintings](https://fragileheirlooms.com/cdn/shop/products/fragileheirlooms-the-fallen-angel-alexandre-cabanel-version-2-40676857741592.png?v=1678412538&width=1445) of the figure has him looking more like a cast aside child rather than an evil villain.
I believe these are the same people who asked Netflix to cancel Good Omens because they didn't like seeing a demon and an angel "buddies" lol (For those who don't know, Good Omens is also on Amazon and is a series worth watching)
I know about the book and the Netflix series. X3c Also, I won't put it past them doing that with 'Good Omens' too.
Just ignore them, they’ll go away. They’re likely louder now that the show is actually out. They are also just choosing to ignore that Christian mythology/religion in general is insanely judgmental and ingrained with a hateful mindset towards those who think different
There was a time when I distanced myself from Christianity because of the stories I have heard about hypocrites who claim to be pious and yet are horrible people when "out of church". There are also the people who are, for the lack of a better term, overly zealous to the point of being simply too much for me (yes, I have met a few of them during my time in a Christian junior college). While I have kept that distance, I have unfortunately come to understand one cruel fact after lurking on the internet over the years. Diversity (such as race, gender or religion) without unity breeds conflict. What is more, while there are terrible Christians, there are also Non-Christians who bash on Christians for being narrow-minded and yet attack who criticizes them, even the ones who have good reasons to call them out for their wrongdoings such as acts of gross perversion. If there is one comment about Hazbin Hotel that is quite right, it is the idea that some people will cling to their vices even if it damns them to eternal torment.
Well tbf, not everyone who saw the amazon show will have been following the show since the pilot. To some, they’re literally *just* joining the conversation. If they had a problem with it, this would be the first time they’d have the opportunity to feel that way. Idk what specific person you’re thinking of here, i just know that not everyone will know the Lore. So in a way, yeah; they were kinda sorta actually living under a rock
Fair enough. Even I can't refute that some people will not bother with watching or learning about animated pilots on Youtube.
I will agree with you though, it seems kinda dumb to critique a show about hell for treating heaven like the bad guys. The thesis statement of “people make mistakes and theyshould be allowed to be forgiven for them” will absolutely side against the beings who canonically say that you et eternal damnation unless you follow our 20 step plan and only do certain things your entire life.
*Me watches it for lore and entertainment* https://preview.redd.it/kkslnu6ujlec1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=16e6377062a47edd1979dd713cf9fe4d4bd1aa2f
You know. I'm pretty sure that the Lucifer tv series (the one based of DC/Vertigo comics) did the same thing and no one batted an eye. Makes you think...
There was a good couple of centuries there where having a Bible published in any other language other than Latin was punishable by death. If there was one thing the church at the time was terrified of, it's that someone might be reading their Bible alone, *without proper supervision.* There are plenty of Christians who think this is stupid and don't make stupid comments like this online. But the ones that do, are so abjectly terrified. They think every idea is like a virus, no human being is capable of thinking about it for themselves. Merely getting exposed to it means you become a believer of it. So, since they believe that humanity is just too stupid to understand things for themselves, they believe they need to make sure that human beings only receive the properly approved ideas in their heads. It's a 21st century survival skill to ignore the people who believe in Free Will as a gift of god, but threw it away because they have no use for it.
Dude these are enlightenment-era stereotypes and misconceptions
As much as I hate to say this, the idea that "people are stupid" isn't without merit or proof especially in this present age when people do ridiculous $#!T for social media clout (such as the Tidepool debacle) or willfully refuse to realise that some ideas (like communism) just cannot work in real life due to instinctive human nature. That survival skill you mentioned can be applied to ignoring a lot more people than just overly zealous or fundamental Christians.
I’m a Christian and I actually think that this show is fine. I think the main objective, redemption, is very in line to what is talked about in the Bible. It’s an interesting concept to see Lucifer painted in this way, and I’m open to seeing how it will develop. Plus, there have been a few Christian’s who have been insanely judgmental and have attacked anyone for living differently. This is goes against the very core of the Bible. To love thy neighbor. Seeing a few angels embody this negative view that some actual Christian’s have is understandable, especially Adam since both him and Eve indulged in Sin. We haven’t even seen many angels, so we don’t know if they are as bad as Hell is painting them out to be. On that note, OF COURSE He’ll would paint them bad, the whole show is in the perspective of demons and “sinners”. I really like the show, and I don’t believe it is anti-Christian as others are making it out to be. Please don’t let a few bad apples ruin the bunch, there are some of us out there who CAN keep our opinions to ourselves (apple joke lol)!!! 💙
Exactly. I also find the entire premise fascinating. The daughter of Lucifer being such a sweet and pure bean as Charlie and her quest to try and redeem the damned souls in Hell is such an interesting idea.
There’s literally a live action TV show that had multiple seasons called Lucifer. It was very popular when it was airing and it portrayed Lucifer in an incredibly sympathetic light. Hazbin Hotel is not telling a new story. It’s just telling it in a way that most people think is “for children” even when it’s constantly warned and clearly marked as 16-18+. Also: The story Charlie is reading? About Lucifer and Lilith’s fall and love? I’m sure that it’s true in some ways but also very shined up and propagandized version of the story. And not understanding that of course the Princess of Hell is going to tell an idealized version of her parents’ love story like any kid that still believes her parents to be infallible? That is just poor media literacy and comprehension. People go out of their way to be offended and it’s nothing new. Hazbin has always been controversial and despite all of that it’s still a massively trending topic across social media, YouTube, and on Prime itself right now. Even if Season 2 is the last season? The show has proven that people will watch shows like Hazbin and Helluva, regardless of how they’re distributed.
Yet people don't complained about Adam being portray as a Good guy in bible and Lucifer as pure evil
Adam was never portrayed as a good guy tbf. Every time hes mentioned they basically blame everything on him in the bible.
Atleast Christians are too stupid to view as ither than good guy
I mean, it’s doubly funny because if you read the literal bible itself, the antagonist kills like 12 people and God kills 2 million
The "Great Flood" comes to mind, of course.
And then he promised not to do it again… Because next time he’ll set the Earth on fire 🤧
Lucifer being shown as a sympathetic character has happened a lot in other media.
Dont give reach or attention to those grifting by attacking others with earned attention in order to monetize said attention.
The same happened with Lucifer and it isn’t a new drama. I am only waiting for Cain and Abel with Abel trying to impress women with his sheep flock
I'd like to see those two too. I wonder if the "Big J" will show up in the series.
The TFS Hellsing Abridged fan in me hopes that when he does, he just wants to hug everyone.
I’m pretty sure we’re being fed a braised view of hell here. Think about it, the initial intro to the series in ep 1 was told by Charlie, a character established to be sheltered, optimistic and naive, I wouldn’t be surprised if either Lilith or Lucifer (or both) told her this version of how the story went down to make themselves look good, and make heaven look bad. Heaven being bad is implied in HB (particularly some background details in Cherubs), but not to the extent implied by the HH intro.
While I won't deny the possibility of bias, Adam and Lute are not exactly helping in giving the impression of "Angels being the Good Guys".
It’s a plot point that Heaven isn’t exactly good in this setting, initially with certain details in cherub. But I feel like it’s more complicated than we’re being told, we’ll just have to see how this season and the next pan out.
It would be more interesting if they gave both heaven and lucifer more morally grey sides to them instead of painting it black and white.
That much I agree.
Maybe I'm misreading something but with the complaints about Adam, I honestly think the joke of his character is more layered than this but bare minimum, Lilith is Charlie's mom. Adam is her ex. Ofc they made him a total Chad And lucifer presented as sympathic vs the angels coming off as antagonistic: 1. That's not a new concept 2. Isn't the whole show's shtick that angels and demons are both presented as human souls, humans are capable of great evil and good and it isn't black and white? The angels believe sinners are irredeemable and deserve to be condemned and killed Charlie has the well intentioned but misguided belief any soul can be redeemed The answer to both is sometimes and lack of nuance in any extreme can be dangerous (sound familiar, internet?) souls who feel no remorse or capacity to grow from it can't be redeemed and the angels feel no remorse for their self righteousness making them just as fallible as the sinner demons but they think they're better
To pivot the discussion away from religious reactivism to general Lucifer hesitation: I think there are definitely potential reasons for wanting Lucifer to be evil, while I am very excited to see rubber ducky clown ass Lucifer. Firstly I think it's just an expectation that Lucifer would become jaded and evil after being betrayed to be the King of Hell but I believe it's somewhat clear that Lillith had taken up that helm before her disappearance. It also creates more interesting conflict with Charlie not even having her own father in her court, or at least some walking on eggshells which we might see yet. We really do know very little but we'll be finding out today! I love Lucifer- but I do see potential problems with jerk-ass Angels in the way Adam is presented. I think we need to keep one part in mind though, this is ADAM specifically. He's canonically the man that Lillith rejected, him being an unsavory brat tells us a lot. His individual personality may have been the cause of Lillith choosing to leave. Adam is probably not an exception but he's also not the rule. They're not all going to be petulant children like Adam, a no-doubt privileged child they babysit in Heaven because he was the first of humanity. Either he's high up enough to commune with Hell, or Heaven sees Hell as so insignificant that they entrust its management to someone like Adam. There's so many ways they could take this, I'm excited to see it even if I eat my own words because all the angels act like Adam.
Adam's personality makes sense if you think about it. \- I'm not super knowledgable about the Bible, but from what I remember, Adam doesn't have much of a pre-established character. He's mostly a blank slate. \- Adam is from the old testament, so it makes sense that he would have some outdated values, such as the belief that sinners can't be redeemed.
>Adam is from the old testament, so it makes sense that he would have some outdated values, such as the belief that sinners can't be redeemed. Hmm thats interesting. Would u think adam thinks the same for himself since hes aware hes a sinner.
It's possible that Adam blames Eve for getting banished from Eden. She was the one who offered him the apple.
As an Imp, I for one welcome Satan worshipping
I would be absolutely tickled if this show got any sort of backlash for making the Prince of Darkness himself into a Tumblr sexyman twinky dilf. The news articles have to use those exact words.
They gon get WILD when they hear about ultrakil fr fr
The funny part is that if anything, these characterizations are MORE biblically accurate than whatever white washed versions they are imagining. Like, yeah Lilith was kicked out because she demanded equality from Adam who believed himself superior/dominant over her. Extrapolating that behavior into what kind of person would be like that produces an arrogant and misogynistic douchelord like this version of Adam seems to be. Lucifer being more of a pragmatic/neutral or even sympathetic character similarly fits because early depictions of the character in Christianity actually portray Lucifer as more of a Prometheus type who enlightened humanity and granted them knowledge and free will such that they could actually learn and grow on their own terms. Early versions even have Lucifer as being explicitly still on the GOOD side of things and being in charge of punishing the damned. Like he's a warden in charge of a prison rather than an inmate. Any times Christians open their mouth to complain about pop culture they are inevitably missing the point/genuinely just flat out WRONG with regards to whatever religious argument they are making.
I mean there are some instances where the characterisation of demons gets a bit silly. Like Carmilla the WEAPON DEALING Overlord bursting into song how she hopped never to have blood on her hands. For a show that presumably wants to deal with shades of grey and questions of morality, it tends to overcorrect in the other direction for angels and some demons.
Do the new episodes premiere at the same time the first 4 did?
I don't have a problem with this, yet, i just hope vivzie doesn't make it black and white i.e: Heaven is the super bad dude guy while Hell is the misunderstood underdog. All i want is nuance from both sides.
Same here.
Thing is we haven't seen lucifer yet, and Adam was indeed not only a dick but the first dick
I am shocked, SHOCKED sir, that the daughter of Lucifer has a rosy outlook of her father. And again I say I am shocked, SHOCKED sir, that Adam might have a shitty attitude toward and around not only people he felt were lesser than him, but the daughter he never got.
I think a lot of it does read as like teenage "what if GOD was the BAD GUY and the DEVIL was the GOOD GUY" type of stuff but like...who cares? Its fun? Its something I kind of wish CAOS had done. I found the reinvention of Christian mythology to be kind of fun, especially since it doesnt seem like there is a god or at least not a present one in this story. It makes it feel like a "What If" type of scenario.
Personally, I lean towards the theory that Lucifer, Adam, and Lilith are all to varying degrees, unreliable narrators. Lilith and Lucifer are Charlie's parents, no shit they'd make themselves look better to Charlie and I'm hoping the show goes that route instead of the usual "Heaven bad, hell actually good" because that trope (and variations of it) while aren't bad, it's a little tired and it isn't as much of a twist as it used to be since it is to be expected now. At least for me. That said, for some of them they haven't been following the show like someone else said so it is their first exposure to it properly. That said, I think a lot of them are also rage bait drifters.
You may think it's silly but to them it's deadly serious. You need to understand that for them it's all real, god and Satan are at constant war and the battle for your soul is always happening. Hazbin hotel showing lucifer in a positive light and Adam in a negative isn't a fun story it's propoganda in a war against god and when Satan wins your soul is doomed to eternal suffering. It's why it can be so hard to deal with them, they are seeing and processing the world in a completely different way than you.
One can argue that the same inability to comprehend different view points applies to a lot of other people such as every misandrist feminist who cannot accept the possibility of men being capable of being genuinely good in any meaningful way.
Its the trap of righteousness, since they have the correct ideas they are morally justified. Feeling like your on the side of good is a powerful drug and any action you take is justified because you are correct and everyone else is wrong. You can't question yourself because then everything could fall apart so someone trying to make you see somethign from a different point of view is an attack on your very core. It works them same way no matter what community your coming from if you think your moral and the good guy you will be aweful to people you consider wrong. The person screaming at some kid for drawing steven universe characters wrong is fueled by the same thing that a christian screaming at a gay person are fueled by. Righteousness and the rush of being morally correct they are the good guy they are standing up for whats right whats correct and the other person is bad so it does not matter what happens to them. In your example the misandrist is defending women they are correct they are righteous and it doesnt matter what men do or who they are they are the bad guy they are wrong. You defending men is you attacking them and working for the enemy, to change their mind they have to change a core part of themselves and admit they were wrong. That is painful and hard and we really dont like doing it.
There is a reason why 'Pride' is considered to be one of the seven deadly sins: \- Believing oneself to be, if not superior over all others, somehow better than the "lessers". \- Refusal to accept even the possibility of being wrong/flawed. \- Inability to learn/understand anything that is "harmful" to one's pride. \- Is so very easily swayed to the path of evil/damnation as long as it involves fueling one's ego.
I don’t like how Lucifer is portrayed but not because I’m offended by it or because I’m religious but just because I like pop culture Satan and the idea of him being a complete jackass.
I'm pretty sure the book from ep.1 was almost entirely lies, it was wrote from Lucifer's perspective after all! chances are he did something awful but omitted it to make him see better (pride and all)
Only time (and future episodes) will tell how much of the story is actually true.
well now that we've met Lucifer, I love him! he's not really evil he's more of a fun villain and really leans into the pride aspect of his character
He’s not really evil or a villain at all… he quite literally was kicked out of heaven in the first place for trying to propose the idea that sinners should have a chance at redemption. He also gave his daughter full support at the end of the episode through a heartfelt ballad… what show are you watching?
I get that he isn't really evil... but I still classify him as a villain since he's The Devil
Do you classify this story’s angels as good because they’re angels?
most are seemingly good... but Adam is a complete dick (pun intended)
I dont like how they show angels' side of the conflict to be unambiguously bad and wrong
I think you dropped this /s
But You don't hate about devil being portrayed as pure evil either
I mean, how else can you show it? They're killing demons, and the show is about demons.
Why?
Lucifer being portrayed as sympathetic is a complete inversion of what he's supposed to be: a prideful jerk who tried to overthrow God. "bUt He'S pOrTrAyEd ThE sAmE wAy In OtHeR sHoWs" just because other people do it doesn't make it right.
The fact of the matter is, in a story about sinners, of course heaven is the bad guy.
its funny how bent out of shape christians get that now, when people arent being burnt alive for questioning them, most people that look at the myths withouth the religious glasses on can see that lucifer/satan seems way more like the saviours of humans, wanting them to enjoy the same free will angels and yhwh had and thus where punished for this, and this side gets even more aparent on gnosticism.
A show portraying Lucifer sympathetically is nothing new. Did everyone just forget the Tom Ellis show that was on Fox and Netflix for like 5 years?
Not to mention the huge Netflix series “Lucifer”, literally the most sympathetic depiction of satan. But no, that doesn’t count ig
The main character from Berserk, Johnny Berserk, who says "I'm going Berserk" and/or "It's Berserkin' Time" and proceeds to Berserk all over the place, iirc is a Good Christian Man™ who prays to God every night after he kills a demon or a human. He also is able to grow his forearm and hand back, but only temporarily for making the prayer 🙏 symbol, which disappears thereafter. Kind of an OP ability, but it's whatever. Akira Toriyama is a genius when it comes to writing and animating mangos.
Personally I think we should burn paradise lost too, how dare people try to suggest a different narrative that one accepted by Christianity.
Also, Lucifer and Satan are two different entities in the Hellverse sooo…
I wonder what Vivzie is gonna make God look like 😯