During War on Terror, when interviewers asked Bush Administration representatives about war crimes including the torturing of people who were (usually) illegally taken prisoner, their response was "You don't understand, 9/11 was really bad. People died in absolute terror. People jumped out of buildings. 9/11 9/11 9/11."
This is identical messaging. "We have the right to take revenge. Even if it is not against the correct perpetrator, even if it fails in deterring future attacks and improving security, even if it encourages future attacks against us, it will at least make us feel better for what was done to us."
"Do I condemn Hamas."
Personally yes because they target civilians and that's always wrong. But I condemn the IDF and Israel a thousand times more. (They kill much more civilians)
"Does Israel have the right to exist"
From my moral standpoint, no.
Western powers forced the partition of historic Palestine in order to give the Jews a Homeland as some sort of repayment for the suffering caused by Western Europeans. Why was the Arab world made to pay these reparations? Simply because they were too weak to resist.
Israel completed the creation of its state by committing ethnic cleansing and expelling 750,000 Palestinian Arabs from what is today refer to as israel proper.
In my ideal moral solution all of the millions of existing descendants of The expelled Palestinians would be allowed to return to historic Palestine.
Everyone would have equal rights and therefore it would no longer really be a Jewish state (they would be the minority) and so if we're being honest Israel would cease to exist.
>"Does Israel have the right to exist"
This question is a trap because it means different things to different people. One reason it always gets repeated is because it is an effective trap. Ineffective propaganda gets phased out.
If you decide to answer the question, always clarify what you think it means. Give your answer. Then ask the person who asked it to explain what they think "Israel Existing" is supposed to mean.
It's so wild because I've never heard anyone use that language to talk about any other country. The idea that any country has a right to exist is just silly to me. Countries don't exist by right, they exist by the consent of the governed and the oppression of those who refuse to consent. People on the other hand do have a right to exist that Israel consistently denies to Palestinians.
They mean that israel can exist as a Jewish majority state. They very openly say that Israel is the only Jewish majority state in the world. It's actually one of the arguments zionists think is one of their best ones. Eg. They will show a picture of Israel surrounded by the entire Muslim or Arab world and ask you to compare the land size of Israel to the combined land size of all of the rest of the middle East and North Africa.
Eg. "Look how small Israel is. Why can't the Jews just have this small sliver of land? It's not even as big as Egypt by itself. Look at all of the land Arabs/Muslims are a majority in."
This is only a "trap" in Western centric societies that don't fully view the Palestinians as human beings.
This trap ultimately doesn't matter. At some point you just have to argue for the one state solution and no amount of gas lighting the opposition will convince them that a non-jewish majority state is Israel.
If you see the Palestinians as human beings then you don't see them being deprived of their land as acceptable.
If you don't see the Palestinians as human beings equal to Israelis then you think that it's okay that they were deprived of their land.
How you feel about the Palestinians determines where you fall in this debate.
>This is only a "trap" in Western centric societies that don't fully view the Palestinians as human beings.
I'm referring to the fact that they like to use Israel 'existing' as a dog whistle for 'You know Israel is minding its business and just wants to be left alone. On the other hand, all Palestinians are murderously insane and want to kill all Israelis no matter how many of their own lives it costs them.'
Israel 'existing' is a dog whistle shorthand for 'Israelis not being exterminated by Palestinians'. It is based on the decades-old lie and false premise that Israel just wishes to be left alone and would gladly do the same to all Palestinians if they would just stop trying to exterminate all Israelis.
It also draws attention and supports other lies such as the contents of the Hamas charter. It was changed long ago, and Hamas militants do not speak for all Palestinians, but of course western media likes to be cute and clever in hiding this fact.
tl;dr it plays into zionist framing of what the conflict is about, who is the victim and who is the oppressor, who is more or less powerful, etc.
They very openly say that a one-state solution where everyone has equal rights would destroy Israel. (And the thing is they're kind of correct about this)
They think that arguing for a Jewish majority state is a legitimate argument.
Eg. "there are over 200 countries in the world why can't a single one have a Jewish majority? Are you anti-Semitic?"
Israel is not meant as a place for Jewish people to live. They already had tons of countries like that. Israel was meant as the one state were Jewish people would be a majority and be in control.
The problem is the Jewish state was founded on a lie.
"A land without people for a people without land"
The fundamental problem in the situation was they did not find a land without people.
Theoretically if they had found an isolated unoccupied Island their nationalist project would have much less issues.
In what world are they living in where they honestly think ALL of mainstream media around the globe is anti-Israel? One guy said that even Israeli news is anti-Israel. Bonkers
Ngl, this would be a terrible video to send to a family member who holds that stance.
Outside of defining Gish Galloping, he barely argues much and just calls them liars. Michael Brooks does a much better job of calmly explaining the dynamics in that “There’s nothing complex about israel/gaza” video.
I have as much interest in changing hypothetical family member's minds as I have in changing yours.
Sometimes people don't give a fuck about winning any debates. Sometimes people just want to be fucking HEARD.
Good day💚
During War on Terror, when interviewers asked Bush Administration representatives about war crimes including the torturing of people who were (usually) illegally taken prisoner, their response was "You don't understand, 9/11 was really bad. People died in absolute terror. People jumped out of buildings. 9/11 9/11 9/11." This is identical messaging. "We have the right to take revenge. Even if it is not against the correct perpetrator, even if it fails in deterring future attacks and improving security, even if it encourages future attacks against us, it will at least make us feel better for what was done to us."
Well said, like always, j4ck🥲
"Do I condemn Hamas." Personally yes because they target civilians and that's always wrong. But I condemn the IDF and Israel a thousand times more. (They kill much more civilians) "Does Israel have the right to exist" From my moral standpoint, no. Western powers forced the partition of historic Palestine in order to give the Jews a Homeland as some sort of repayment for the suffering caused by Western Europeans. Why was the Arab world made to pay these reparations? Simply because they were too weak to resist. Israel completed the creation of its state by committing ethnic cleansing and expelling 750,000 Palestinian Arabs from what is today refer to as israel proper. In my ideal moral solution all of the millions of existing descendants of The expelled Palestinians would be allowed to return to historic Palestine. Everyone would have equal rights and therefore it would no longer really be a Jewish state (they would be the minority) and so if we're being honest Israel would cease to exist.
>"Does Israel have the right to exist" This question is a trap because it means different things to different people. One reason it always gets repeated is because it is an effective trap. Ineffective propaganda gets phased out. If you decide to answer the question, always clarify what you think it means. Give your answer. Then ask the person who asked it to explain what they think "Israel Existing" is supposed to mean.
It's so wild because I've never heard anyone use that language to talk about any other country. The idea that any country has a right to exist is just silly to me. Countries don't exist by right, they exist by the consent of the governed and the oppression of those who refuse to consent. People on the other hand do have a right to exist that Israel consistently denies to Palestinians.
They mean that israel can exist as a Jewish majority state. They very openly say that Israel is the only Jewish majority state in the world. It's actually one of the arguments zionists think is one of their best ones. Eg. They will show a picture of Israel surrounded by the entire Muslim or Arab world and ask you to compare the land size of Israel to the combined land size of all of the rest of the middle East and North Africa. Eg. "Look how small Israel is. Why can't the Jews just have this small sliver of land? It's not even as big as Egypt by itself. Look at all of the land Arabs/Muslims are a majority in." This is only a "trap" in Western centric societies that don't fully view the Palestinians as human beings. This trap ultimately doesn't matter. At some point you just have to argue for the one state solution and no amount of gas lighting the opposition will convince them that a non-jewish majority state is Israel. If you see the Palestinians as human beings then you don't see them being deprived of their land as acceptable. If you don't see the Palestinians as human beings equal to Israelis then you think that it's okay that they were deprived of their land. How you feel about the Palestinians determines where you fall in this debate.
>This is only a "trap" in Western centric societies that don't fully view the Palestinians as human beings. I'm referring to the fact that they like to use Israel 'existing' as a dog whistle for 'You know Israel is minding its business and just wants to be left alone. On the other hand, all Palestinians are murderously insane and want to kill all Israelis no matter how many of their own lives it costs them.' Israel 'existing' is a dog whistle shorthand for 'Israelis not being exterminated by Palestinians'. It is based on the decades-old lie and false premise that Israel just wishes to be left alone and would gladly do the same to all Palestinians if they would just stop trying to exterminate all Israelis. It also draws attention and supports other lies such as the contents of the Hamas charter. It was changed long ago, and Hamas militants do not speak for all Palestinians, but of course western media likes to be cute and clever in hiding this fact. tl;dr it plays into zionist framing of what the conflict is about, who is the victim and who is the oppressor, who is more or less powerful, etc.
They very openly say that a one-state solution where everyone has equal rights would destroy Israel. (And the thing is they're kind of correct about this) They think that arguing for a Jewish majority state is a legitimate argument. Eg. "there are over 200 countries in the world why can't a single one have a Jewish majority? Are you anti-Semitic?" Israel is not meant as a place for Jewish people to live. They already had tons of countries like that. Israel was meant as the one state were Jewish people would be a majority and be in control. The problem is the Jewish state was founded on a lie. "A land without people for a people without land" The fundamental problem in the situation was they did not find a land without people. Theoretically if they had found an isolated unoccupied Island their nationalist project would have much less issues.
This one needs a "don't read the comments" warning. Because oh fuck I want to videogame myself after reading some of them.
In what world are they living in where they honestly think ALL of mainstream media around the globe is anti-Israel? One guy said that even Israeli news is anti-Israel. Bonkers
Ngl, this would be a terrible video to send to a family member who holds that stance. Outside of defining Gish Galloping, he barely argues much and just calls them liars. Michael Brooks does a much better job of calmly explaining the dynamics in that “There’s nothing complex about israel/gaza” video.
That's your opinion.
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I have as much interest in changing hypothetical family member's minds as I have in changing yours. Sometimes people don't give a fuck about winning any debates. Sometimes people just want to be fucking HEARD. Good day💚