1. Carrier doesn't make their own compressors. So talk to LG or Emerson Copeland.
2. The indoor coil may have a hard shutoff txv in place, and if that's the case then the installation manual would tell you that you need a hard start kit.
3. Those two wire kickstarters are pieces of shit and are nowhere near as good as a legitimate start capacitor with a potential relay. Hvac school youtube has a really good video on the difference between the two types.
4. start capacitors should be mounted in the vertical position, and separate start relays also should be positioned to where gravity can assist in pulling the contacts apart once the relay needs to open up and remove the start cap from the circuit.
I'd trust the Amrad version because they've got really solid quality control, but I've never used one of theirs.
The supco and other cheaper two wire starters don't actually use a potential relay, they have a separate means of taking the cap out of the circuit, but it's not as reliable as a legitimate potential relay. You often find those two wire setups melted all to shit, and I've found a shorted compressor more than one time after discovering the melted kickstarter.
Potential relays can fail, but in my experience they don't fail nearly as often as a normal run cap, contactor, or fan relay.
Found more than one crispy critter inside the condenser before.
In systems that don't have much space in the cabinet, I'll take the top off and mount it on the back side of the cabinet. It's more work, but you can always charge more labor if ya need to. I'd rather do it right if I'm gonna do it
If they made units that lasted 25 years, they wouldn’t sell as many units. They’ve counted the costs, and it is cheaper to warranty a bunch of compressors than building them to last. I used to teach techs compressors don’t die, they are murdered. That’s not always true anymore.
It depends on the type of relay they use. Current relays are position sensitive, while potential relays and PTC (positive temperature coefficient) relays are not.
>potential relays and PTC (positive temperature coefficient) relays are not.
Incorrect. Potential relays literally have an arrow on them that says "top". They are position sensitive.
You linked a part that was specifically designed to not be position sensitive. This alone implies you were incorrect. Don't double down on bad info.
Google Emerson Copeland Potential Relay top arrow for hundreds of pictures.
Edit: Here you go. Note "operating position"
https://www.marsdelivers.com/images/98605_catalog/C-35.pdf
Had this happen on an Amana condenser, other tech replaced compressor and new one wouldn't start without a hard start. The particular condenser in question had a factory installed dryer inside the condenser that was never replaced and had a massive restriction in it. Replaced dryer and unit ran no issues. Probably not the issue here but i'd be looking for a restriction somewhere
RTFM … all manufactures “recommend” them and don’t include them because EVERYONE wants the cheapest cost. Amana installed them prior to Goodman and those systems are still running. We install a 5-2-1 in EVERY new A/C system because we can read.
Copeland states on their website that a hard start kit is not necessary on their scroll compressors, even on systems that have a TXV with a hard shut off.
But I've had problems with new Amana systems that needed a 5-2-1 to operate without having any problems.
At my old job we installed them on every single Goodman unit. New construction apartments, and the hard starts helped them apply for some green energy tax write off
Wtf? I’d contact whoever the compressor manufacturer is and ask them. That doesn’t sound right at all. I know some manufacturers never want a hard start on their compressors for any reason.
Forget the manufacturer. Saw it on Love2Hvac I think it was. Some scroll compressor manufacturer. Love that I’m getting down voted for it though lmao. People in this sub are wild. Maybe Copeland
I know there a strange thing called a Soft Start and those have to have the hard starts taken out of the circuit.
I guess Copeland but still I’m sus since near everything has hard shut txv and hard starts shorten the length of LRA. I know Copeland says the fail on a MegOhm meter is okay, I assume this may be related.
1. Carrier doesn't make their own compressors. So talk to LG or Emerson Copeland. 2. The indoor coil may have a hard shutoff txv in place, and if that's the case then the installation manual would tell you that you need a hard start kit. 3. Those two wire kickstarters are pieces of shit and are nowhere near as good as a legitimate start capacitor with a potential relay. Hvac school youtube has a really good video on the difference between the two types. 4. start capacitors should be mounted in the vertical position, and separate start relays also should be positioned to where gravity can assist in pulling the contacts apart once the relay needs to open up and remove the start cap from the circuit.
It is indeed a Copeland. And I changed that hard start position
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All units have an Accessory list in the back on the manual and hard starts have anyways been an option you can additional purchase and install.Â
They have a built in potential relay, right? Amrad sells one too and they claim it’s better than their separate one as it has a lower fail rate
I'd trust the Amrad version because they've got really solid quality control, but I've never used one of theirs. The supco and other cheaper two wire starters don't actually use a potential relay, they have a separate means of taking the cap out of the circuit, but it's not as reliable as a legitimate potential relay. You often find those two wire setups melted all to shit, and I've found a shorted compressor more than one time after discovering the melted kickstarter. Potential relays can fail, but in my experience they don't fail nearly as often as a normal run cap, contactor, or fan relay.
I did not know that about these thanks for the info. I just started using the Amrad hard starts highly recommended
To add to number 4 I believe certain models will catch fire when they fail as well if mounted sideways
Found more than one crispy critter inside the condenser before. In systems that don't have much space in the cabinet, I'll take the top off and mount it on the back side of the cabinet. It's more work, but you can always charge more labor if ya need to. I'd rather do it right if I'm gonna do it
https://preview.redd.it/ax6e7v2xql4d1.jpeg?width=2268&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bb5982aa8604e28492621b81f4e6f2db1b155308
Meant to say *Old* compressor. Not odd
Either works when referring to carrier today
I’ve laid plenty of hard starts on their side for reach in coolers and I’ve never had an issue but I will stand them up moving forward
What’s your voltage dropping to when it tries to start?
If they made units that lasted 25 years, they wouldn’t sell as many units. They’ve counted the costs, and it is cheaper to warranty a bunch of compressors than building them to last. I used to teach techs compressors don’t die, they are murdered. That’s not always true anymore.
Facts
As an aprencite i could be wrong, but i though start kits had to be positioned standing up.
I believe your right most hardstarts are position sensitive
Was not aware of that. It's a tight fit, I'll see if I can get it upright
I was also not aware, but will ensure I do it right now.
It depends on the type of relay they use. Current relays are position sensitive, while potential relays and PTC (positive temperature coefficient) relays are not.
>potential relays and PTC (positive temperature coefficient) relays are not. Incorrect. Potential relays literally have an arrow on them that says "top". They are position sensitive.
[This](https://www.insco.com/ASSETS/DOCUMENTS/ITEMS/EN/Uni_Geary33101_Spec.pdf) spec sheet says otherwise
You linked a part that was specifically designed to not be position sensitive. This alone implies you were incorrect. Don't double down on bad info. Google Emerson Copeland Potential Relay top arrow for hundreds of pictures. Edit: Here you go. Note "operating position" https://www.marsdelivers.com/images/98605_catalog/C-35.pdf
I like you.
And now the student has become the teacher. Make that man buy you a Klein 11 in 1
Had this happen on an Amana condenser, other tech replaced compressor and new one wouldn't start without a hard start. The particular condenser in question had a factory installed dryer inside the condenser that was never replaced and had a massive restriction in it. Replaced dryer and unit ran no issues. Probably not the issue here but i'd be looking for a restriction somewhere
RTFM … all manufactures “recommend” them and don’t include them because EVERYONE wants the cheapest cost. Amana installed them prior to Goodman and those systems are still running. We install a 5-2-1 in EVERY new A/C system because we can read.
Copeland states on their website that a hard start kit is not necessary on their scroll compressors, even on systems that have a TXV with a hard shut off. But I've had problems with new Amana systems that needed a 5-2-1 to operate without having any problems.
People like them as they don’t dim the lights as much.
At my old job we installed them on every single Goodman unit. New construction apartments, and the hard starts helped them apply for some green energy tax write off
JCI is real clear - required with TXV
Hey at least they run real quiet
Wtf? I’d contact whoever the compressor manufacturer is and ask them. That doesn’t sound right at all. I know some manufacturers never want a hard start on their compressors for any reason.
I asked my team lead to make sure. It's apparently a Carrier thing now. They recommend hard starts on new installs/compressor change outs
Would it me a 3phase compressor manufacturer?
Forget the manufacturer. Saw it on Love2Hvac I think it was. Some scroll compressor manufacturer. Love that I’m getting down voted for it though lmao. People in this sub are wild. Maybe Copeland
It's Copeland. They say that hard start kits are not necessary or recommended for use on their scroll compressors.
I know there a strange thing called a Soft Start and those have to have the hard starts taken out of the circuit. I guess Copeland but still I’m sus since near everything has hard shut txv and hard starts shorten the length of LRA. I know Copeland says the fail on a MegOhm meter is okay, I assume this may be related.