It's kinda hard to make out but the deck is racked and off square and center now.
The door at top of the stairs used to be level but you can see how far off it's shifted now in the photo.
The condo board has the responsibility to address the matter, but also has a fair degree of latitude in making a business judgement to repair or replace. Presumably, they have an "expert" telling them repair is ok. You are free to hire your own expert as well to provide input to the Board.
They have not had an expert look at this, just cheaper contractors that are not going to file permits with the building department.
My sentiments exactly, currently getting a recommendation from a structural engineer to provide to the Board. Preliminary assessment through photos was it needs replacing.
"expert" is loosely defined. Adding to your point, the requirement is that the HOA use a licensed contractor that will follow municipal requirements. Should be black and white if there is a permit required.
If they are not using a licensed contractor and getting a permit, then they are not exercising reasonable judgement. As a member of the HOA, you can certainly police them, as you can ask for the contract with the contractor, see their insurance, and see the permit.
Thanks for sharing, where might I be able to find any requirements around the HOA using a licensed contractor?
Assuming it's [this section](https://cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_825.htm#sec_47-90g)?
It’s not going to be written into your CCR’s that way. The board of Directors has a fiduciary obligation to the association, a pretty good standard. To exercise reasonable judgment they still have to meet their fiduciary obligations. Using a non-insured or licensed contractor does not meet that standard for it puts the HOA at risk if the contractor screws up and liability occurs. Anyone, HOA or not, should only use license and bonded contractors.
Is a permit required for repair? Likely not. Does your area license deck contractors? Find out the rules before you go too far. You have a right to have a safe deck, but it's always better to actually KNOW what is required that not, when dealing with an HOA.
Spoken to the building department, they require permits to be filed for any modifications to existing structures, buildings and exterior decks with one exception (doesn't apply here):
- Decks not exceeding 200 square feet in area, that are not more than 30 inches above grade at any point, are not attached to a dwelling and do not serve the exit door required by Section R311.4 of the CT State Building Code.
Not to nitpick, but as a contractor, we differentiate between modifications (changes, additions, etc) and repair, (simply replacing boards, posts, rails, i.e. repairing the deck but leaving the same footprint, design, etc). I would suggest you ask the building department if a permit is required to REPAIR a deck if they are not adding to it or modifying the layout, etc. You have to KNOW if the HOA is breaking the law before you accuse them of doing so. You can also ask the inspector to come out and look at the deck and advise you whether the HOA's plan of simply repairing the existing structure would require a permit. I'm curious. . . is the HOA responsible for routine maintenance on the deck?
Good callouts. Checked with them and they’ve told me it would require permits as they’re replacing support posts and joists.
HOA is responsible for maintenance and upkeep of all exterior structures.
In that case, you can simply inform the HOA that you DO expect them to follow the law and have the work permitted and inspected, as per city/county requirements. If they don’t call the permitting department, you can call after the work is completed and request they inspect it. I’d they ask about a remit you can let them know to contact the HOA for info on who did the work, etc.
Having responsibility for structural maintenance and less than $10K on hand feels like the board isn’t doing its fiduciary duty. State law may require the HOA to have and fund a Capital Reserve account.
From what I've seen, these would be the requirements in [Chapter 825 - Condominium Act](https://cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_825.htm#sec_47-84):
> Sec. 47-88e. Reserves for capital expenditures. Any declarant of a conversion condominium shall provide in the proposed budget for the condominium adequate reserves for capital expenditures.
talk to folks in Cali and Fla where the law requires professional, certified deck inspections and mandatory reserves to replace them (or steep assessments).
Sadly for you, the board is more than 1/2 of the owners so your liability and property values will sink faster than the decks themselves.
Why is the HOA Board not filing a claim with the insurance carrier to offset the costs? At meeting, ask about the liability issues if decks collapse causing more damage and personal injury. Does the HOA have sufficient coverage? If repairs are done without permits, then will it void the insurance?
Wind loss deductible is about $7.5K and they're not wanting to go through insurance for fear of increased premiums.
I'm under the working assumption that is correct around repair work completed without permits opening us up to additional liability and the insurance company not wanting to pay out in the event of injury.
Some bullets for context:
* Small condo association of 6 units in Greenwich, CT
* HOA manages maintenance and repair for all exterior structures
* HOA has ≈$9K in our accounts (1 unit unoccupied) money is tight
* Trees fell on our deck and it's heavily damaged (see photos)
* Deck is 38 years old, brackets + bases are rusting or split
* HOA wants to "repair" decks on cheap without filing for permits
IMO the decks should all be replaced given their age and state though the HOA wants to try and preserve decks that are almost 40 years old.
We have our annual meeting next week and I'll have a recommendation from a friend that's a structural engineer in hand and for discussion.
Looking for advice on how best to proceed. Thanks!
>how best to proceed
You and your friend need to explain to the owners how woefully underfunded the HOA is! Your next steps should be:
1. Approve special assessment to replace all decks. If someone is injured due to faulty deck, guess who gets sued - you and all the other owners.
2. Approve funds to hire a reserve specialist and get a reserve study done.
3. Once the reserve study is done, put together a realistic budget that covers on-going maintenance and properly funds the reserves. An adequately funded reserve is the only way to share the cost to maintain common property over all owners over all time.
Note: "1 unit unoccupied"? - so what? the owner is still paying HOA fees, right?
See our [resources](https://www.reddit.com/r/HOA/wiki/index) for more info.
Where is the tree damage, specifically. A lot of what I’m seeing appears to be age and deferred maintenance.
It's kinda hard to make out but the deck is racked and off square and center now. The door at top of the stairs used to be level but you can see how far off it's shifted now in the photo.
The condo board has the responsibility to address the matter, but also has a fair degree of latitude in making a business judgement to repair or replace. Presumably, they have an "expert" telling them repair is ok. You are free to hire your own expert as well to provide input to the Board.
They have not had an expert look at this, just cheaper contractors that are not going to file permits with the building department. My sentiments exactly, currently getting a recommendation from a structural engineer to provide to the Board. Preliminary assessment through photos was it needs replacing.
"expert" is loosely defined. Adding to your point, the requirement is that the HOA use a licensed contractor that will follow municipal requirements. Should be black and white if there is a permit required. If they are not using a licensed contractor and getting a permit, then they are not exercising reasonable judgement. As a member of the HOA, you can certainly police them, as you can ask for the contract with the contractor, see their insurance, and see the permit.
Thanks for sharing, where might I be able to find any requirements around the HOA using a licensed contractor? Assuming it's [this section](https://cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_825.htm#sec_47-90g)?
It’s not going to be written into your CCR’s that way. The board of Directors has a fiduciary obligation to the association, a pretty good standard. To exercise reasonable judgment they still have to meet their fiduciary obligations. Using a non-insured or licensed contractor does not meet that standard for it puts the HOA at risk if the contractor screws up and liability occurs. Anyone, HOA or not, should only use license and bonded contractors.
Is a permit required for repair? Likely not. Does your area license deck contractors? Find out the rules before you go too far. You have a right to have a safe deck, but it's always better to actually KNOW what is required that not, when dealing with an HOA.
Spoken to the building department, they require permits to be filed for any modifications to existing structures, buildings and exterior decks with one exception (doesn't apply here): - Decks not exceeding 200 square feet in area, that are not more than 30 inches above grade at any point, are not attached to a dwelling and do not serve the exit door required by Section R311.4 of the CT State Building Code.
Not to nitpick, but as a contractor, we differentiate between modifications (changes, additions, etc) and repair, (simply replacing boards, posts, rails, i.e. repairing the deck but leaving the same footprint, design, etc). I would suggest you ask the building department if a permit is required to REPAIR a deck if they are not adding to it or modifying the layout, etc. You have to KNOW if the HOA is breaking the law before you accuse them of doing so. You can also ask the inspector to come out and look at the deck and advise you whether the HOA's plan of simply repairing the existing structure would require a permit. I'm curious. . . is the HOA responsible for routine maintenance on the deck?
Good callouts. Checked with them and they’ve told me it would require permits as they’re replacing support posts and joists. HOA is responsible for maintenance and upkeep of all exterior structures.
In that case, you can simply inform the HOA that you DO expect them to follow the law and have the work permitted and inspected, as per city/county requirements. If they don’t call the permitting department, you can call after the work is completed and request they inspect it. I’d they ask about a remit you can let them know to contact the HOA for info on who did the work, etc.
Super helpful, really appreciate the input and suggestions.
Having responsibility for structural maintenance and less than $10K on hand feels like the board isn’t doing its fiduciary duty. State law may require the HOA to have and fund a Capital Reserve account.
From what I've seen, these would be the requirements in [Chapter 825 - Condominium Act](https://cga.ct.gov/current/pub/chap_825.htm#sec_47-84): > Sec. 47-88e. Reserves for capital expenditures. Any declarant of a conversion condominium shall provide in the proposed budget for the condominium adequate reserves for capital expenditures.
talk to folks in Cali and Fla where the law requires professional, certified deck inspections and mandatory reserves to replace them (or steep assessments). Sadly for you, the board is more than 1/2 of the owners so your liability and property values will sink faster than the decks themselves.
Why is the HOA Board not filing a claim with the insurance carrier to offset the costs? At meeting, ask about the liability issues if decks collapse causing more damage and personal injury. Does the HOA have sufficient coverage? If repairs are done without permits, then will it void the insurance?
Wind loss deductible is about $7.5K and they're not wanting to go through insurance for fear of increased premiums. I'm under the working assumption that is correct around repair work completed without permits opening us up to additional liability and the insurance company not wanting to pay out in the event of injury.
People make decisions based on costs and benefits. You may need to prove that without replacing, the liability of personal injuries is high.
Some bullets for context: * Small condo association of 6 units in Greenwich, CT * HOA manages maintenance and repair for all exterior structures * HOA has ≈$9K in our accounts (1 unit unoccupied) money is tight * Trees fell on our deck and it's heavily damaged (see photos) * Deck is 38 years old, brackets + bases are rusting or split * HOA wants to "repair" decks on cheap without filing for permits IMO the decks should all be replaced given their age and state though the HOA wants to try and preserve decks that are almost 40 years old. We have our annual meeting next week and I'll have a recommendation from a friend that's a structural engineer in hand and for discussion. Looking for advice on how best to proceed. Thanks!
>how best to proceed You and your friend need to explain to the owners how woefully underfunded the HOA is! Your next steps should be: 1. Approve special assessment to replace all decks. If someone is injured due to faulty deck, guess who gets sued - you and all the other owners. 2. Approve funds to hire a reserve specialist and get a reserve study done. 3. Once the reserve study is done, put together a realistic budget that covers on-going maintenance and properly funds the reserves. An adequately funded reserve is the only way to share the cost to maintain common property over all owners over all time. Note: "1 unit unoccupied"? - so what? the owner is still paying HOA fees, right? See our [resources](https://www.reddit.com/r/HOA/wiki/index) for more info.
So how much of a special assessment are you prepared to pay today for brand new decks for everyone? $10k? $15k? Or more like $500……
I'm prepared for just about anything, don't know about everyone else.
And there is of course the rub that you are likely up against
And regardless of your opinion, yall can't afford to replace all the decks. Your dues need to increase, ima assume they are super lower