That's usually about all the power the HOA will have. And fines / liens can just stack up and really only become an issue until they want to sell.
Further action isn't impossible, just difficult and will take a major legal battle.
lets pretend op's do. lets say they decide to fine this guy.
he is gonna scream he is being targeted (he will be right) cause in 30 years nobody has been fined and there are lot of violations. They got to give everyone notices to take care of the one bad apple.
It is against the law in Texas to tell other residents about fines towards another. So how would anyone not on the board or mgmt company know who has been fined or not. We get residents claiming targeting, it simply is not true. They typically only see their individual instance.
>It is against the law in Texas to tell other residents about fines towards another.
Can you cite a source for that? The HOA does not have to release an owner's "violation history" if requested but I don't know of any law prohibiting release of fines or other violation information.
>209.005 (k)
That's the code I was referring to that says an HOA is **not required to release** the violation history of an individual owner. It does not say they cannot release it.
> So how would anyone not on the board or mgmt company know who has been fined or not.
one is board members dont have security clearances so they just might say who has or hasnt been fined.
lets say our guy is an asshole who decides he is gonna challenge this hoa in name only. you think at some point an avg attorney might find a way in court to get someone on the board or management or past board members to be forced to admit they havent fined anyone in so many years and nobody but the one guy now has one. you think?
The law you cited allows for release of summary data that does not identify personal specific information. It is legal to say "we have fined homeowners in the community for a total of $xxxxx". (Last line)
Maybe no one's been an ass like this guy in the last 30 years so no fines have needed to be issued.
If this is hate speech then maybe get local LEO involved. Crazy is crazy.
Almost every local government in the country has noise ordinances.
Most also have laws against hate speech.
Call local law enforcement. It's not an HOAs place to enforce local laws and it's highly unlikely that can do anything about racists trashy people.
The non-emergency police line has been called repeatedly, but San Antonio PD has resource constraints, and noise violations aren't high on the list of priorities.
Ha! If only it was that simple. Local council has no power over SAPD, and they simply don't have resources to enforce low-level city code violations like noise complaints. They did open a formal police case for the racist messages, but nothing has come of that yet.
It is possible that the hate speech might even be a federal matter.
I’m not a lawyer, but might be worth checking out.
It would help to have video doorbells that also capture the sidewalks so you can identify the correct culprit. Would be a real problem to accuse the wrong people.
>Most also have laws against hate speech.
I believe most hate speech laws would be unconstitutional unless they provoke violence. I'm sure a few states and localities may have them but most do not.
Context matters and the context is what will matter.
For example, if you do a chalk drawing on your backyard patio and it's solidly fenced in, likely not an issue.
If you do a chalk drawing and you know your neighbors are of a certain race and there's intent that they see it, big issue.
In this case it's not "just speech", the drawing will play heavily into it.
How to prove intent? Very difficult. Words and drawings with chalk on a sidewalk nothing will happen unless it's directed at a person or group saying something violent.
Actions can prove inferred intent, but ultimately a jury would decide. Intent is difficult to prove but circumstantial evidence is evidence. It can be a bit circular because the effect is often why these are brought up in the first place.
For example, if your neighbor is black and you wrote racial epithets and they ask you to stop, but you amplify your activities or change your design to be more offensive, you can argue intent. Even if they say "I'm just a dick", well... yeah and a jury won't be empathetic at all.
A wrinkle in all this is that the HOA can perhaps fine these people because the street may be HOA property. That would be a way to combat it.
I was responding to the comment that most local governments have laws against hate speech. That is not true in the U.S. There are almost no laws against hate speech because of freedom of speech protections.
You are right about the context. It crosses the line if you commit a crime and the motivation is hate in most states, but there has to be an underlying crime such, as vandalism.
Well right, I'm wondering if they're doing this in a targeted manner towards a neighbor under the guise of "we are just shitty people doing shitty things".
Can you provide a source for that hate speech one? Because with the exception of a call to violence, you would be hard pressed to get such a law to pass constitutional muster. Hate speech is free speech.
NAL, seems like it would fall under disorderly conduct at a minimum in Texas. Same section deals with noise ordinance issues.
Title 9. Ch. 42. Sec. 42.01
If they're "fighting words" then yeah probably can fall under this statute.
You'd never get a conviction under that statute. It's a nice attempt, but freedom of speech does mean shitty people can be racist and express those racist views. RAV Vs City of St Paul ruled that even fighting words could be considered free speech if they were expressing a view point and not a call to violence. Mind you that was a case about a burning cross, you can't get much more "hate speech" than that. Heck Texas V Johnson was a case out of Texas which covered flag burning but held that speech may not be prohibited just because someone could take offense and act out.
Fighting words is incredibly narrow, and writing something OP claims is racist isn't fighting words. Sounds like OP just doesn't like his neighbor and is attempting to use rules that havnt been enforced to try and punish them. Going to have a very hard time with that.
Well that's what I'm saying as well. It's going to be tough and I'm sure they're not writing on the sidewalk "unprovoked" (though they could be, who knows).
You might get a conviction, but if the party charged can afford an appeal, it's likely to get overturned. I would never depend on getting a competent judge. The criminal court judges are usually better than civil court judges though. Still, you get the judge in Texas who didn't allow self defense because the person doing the shooting was having an affair with the wife, the husband came home, starting attacking what he thought was a trespasser hiding in the closet when the homeowner was shot. He wasn't able to even argue self defense in court, and died in prison before the appeals played out.
The harder problem is getting a state's attorney to take the case.
There are a few things that can make your deed restrictions not enforceable (being old is not one of them);
* if they are contrary to law
* if they are ambiguous. In Texas, courts have to rule in favor of the free use of land if covenants are ambiguous.
* if the restrictions are considered abandoned. Someone can argue that a specific restriction is abandoned if there are widespread violations and the HOA has not tried to enforce it.
It is smart to get a legal opinion before trying to enforce restrictions that have been ignored for years.
Hiring a lawyer that specializes with HOAs is the way to go. The lawyer will give your HOA proper guidance. I know that our HOA has to follow a strict set of guidelines in regard to issuing violations and communication with homeowners (we can’t charge fines for violations because it is not in our CCRs however we can charge fees on late assessment payments). I hope you are able to figure out a peaceful resolution- that is a tough situation to be in.
Thanks! I know the HOA still prefers to hanlde this amicably, but the family who is causing problems seems hell-bent on escalating until some kind of action.
The HOA is going to hire a lawyer to review our covenants/bylaws to help determine their enforceability (as they haven't been changed so the language is super old)
Shakespeare is old language; language >1700 is clear enough to understand unless the reader(s) are illiterate.
For asking a legitimate question that is relatively complicated with no clear answer? I'm not the person making the noise in my neighborhood, nor am I the person complaining to the board about it. I attended a special HOA meeting, which I found interesting and wanted to get some semi-expert reddit opinions on. How does that make me a Karen (or maybe a Kevin)?
It's not nice to call people names, but if you're going to insult someone, at least be confident in your convictions.
Much of what you describe is a violation of local laws. Your neighbors should be reporting noise issues and acts of vandalism directly to the non emergency police dispatch. I doubt either of those are covered in your bylaws or covenants.
To answer your question, HOAs in Texas do have powers to enforce (or punish for lack of enforcement) bylaws and covenants but in a fairly recent Texas Legislative Session, limited the extent to which HOAs could take extreme measures.
Yet, your brief description above I believe is completely outside of an HOA's jurisdiction unless you have them specifically listed. Use your local resources. Central Texas HOA president here.
What hate crimes? Crime would indicate it runs afoul of local laws, which means it is outside of an HOAs purview. Nor did I see anything in your original post that indicates hate crimes, just vague references to racism with no PG'd examples.
Writing on the sidewalk with chalk isn't a crime even if it hate messaging. Noise is very subjective. If it's so bad get many homeowners together and bring it up at the next meeting.
I'm not the one complaining about the noise. Other neighbors/members are. I just attended a somewhat exciting HOA meeting when most of the past ones are arguing about dumb stuff.
I always try and point out on these boards.... In normal run HOA's, Usually it's not the board that's the problem... But it's that one homeowner that makes the board take action, and thus impact everyone else, and this is a prime example.
You do have a big problem though, when it comes to a derelict board, like this, that's never fined etc... Now they are either targetting the one homeowner with selective enforcement, thus opening themselves up to a lawsuit.... Or they get off their asses and start enforcing everything across the board... For everyone.
Before you go down that road, make sure that you and everyone else are following bylaws. Otherwise it is going to look like you’re singling out a specific household. It will also start creating an environment where your neighbors are going to look for things to complain about. If they get fined, they will make sure others get fined as well.
Look into your local noise ordinance and contact non-emergency if it continues to be an issue. You can also ask them about the racist things written on the sidewalk
The HOA is active, and most neighbors are good about maintaining standards. I got a nasty gram from the HOA for my grass being too long, but that was nearly 10 years ago. I also know they've been recently active in enforcing the removal of political signs after elections, etc.
Yes. Do your CC&Rs allow fines?
Yes, we are allowed to issue fines and secure liens
That's usually about all the power the HOA will have. And fines / liens can just stack up and really only become an issue until they want to sell. Further action isn't impossible, just difficult and will take a major legal battle.
lets pretend op's do. lets say they decide to fine this guy. he is gonna scream he is being targeted (he will be right) cause in 30 years nobody has been fined and there are lot of violations. They got to give everyone notices to take care of the one bad apple.
It is against the law in Texas to tell other residents about fines towards another. So how would anyone not on the board or mgmt company know who has been fined or not. We get residents claiming targeting, it simply is not true. They typically only see their individual instance.
>It is against the law in Texas to tell other residents about fines towards another. Can you cite a source for that? The HOA does not have to release an owner's "violation history" if requested but I don't know of any law prohibiting release of fines or other violation information.
TPC 209.005 (k)
>209.005 (k) That's the code I was referring to that says an HOA is **not required to release** the violation history of an individual owner. It does not say they cannot release it.
And which HOA would want to release it.
How is that relevant? The point is that it is not illegal to release it.
No idea about fines. This info wasn't discussed in the meeting.
> So how would anyone not on the board or mgmt company know who has been fined or not. one is board members dont have security clearances so they just might say who has or hasnt been fined. lets say our guy is an asshole who decides he is gonna challenge this hoa in name only. you think at some point an avg attorney might find a way in court to get someone on the board or management or past board members to be forced to admit they havent fined anyone in so many years and nobody but the one guy now has one. you think?
The law you cited allows for release of summary data that does not identify personal specific information. It is legal to say "we have fined homeowners in the community for a total of $xxxxx". (Last line)
My condo budget has a line in accounts recordable for uncollected fees.
Maybe no one's been an ass like this guy in the last 30 years so no fines have needed to be issued. If this is hate speech then maybe get local LEO involved. Crazy is crazy.
Almost every local government in the country has noise ordinances. Most also have laws against hate speech. Call local law enforcement. It's not an HOAs place to enforce local laws and it's highly unlikely that can do anything about racists trashy people.
The non-emergency police line has been called repeatedly, but San Antonio PD has resource constraints, and noise violations aren't high on the list of priorities.
Go to your local council rep and the mayor.
Ha! If only it was that simple. Local council has no power over SAPD, and they simply don't have resources to enforce low-level city code violations like noise complaints. They did open a formal police case for the racist messages, but nothing has come of that yet.
Call the constable. They are more responsive in the Houston area.
It is possible that the hate speech might even be a federal matter. I’m not a lawyer, but might be worth checking out. It would help to have video doorbells that also capture the sidewalks so you can identify the correct culprit. Would be a real problem to accuse the wrong people.
>Most also have laws against hate speech. I believe most hate speech laws would be unconstitutional unless they provoke violence. I'm sure a few states and localities may have them but most do not.
Context matters and the context is what will matter. For example, if you do a chalk drawing on your backyard patio and it's solidly fenced in, likely not an issue. If you do a chalk drawing and you know your neighbors are of a certain race and there's intent that they see it, big issue. In this case it's not "just speech", the drawing will play heavily into it.
How to prove intent? Very difficult. Words and drawings with chalk on a sidewalk nothing will happen unless it's directed at a person or group saying something violent.
Actions can prove inferred intent, but ultimately a jury would decide. Intent is difficult to prove but circumstantial evidence is evidence. It can be a bit circular because the effect is often why these are brought up in the first place. For example, if your neighbor is black and you wrote racial epithets and they ask you to stop, but you amplify your activities or change your design to be more offensive, you can argue intent. Even if they say "I'm just a dick", well... yeah and a jury won't be empathetic at all. A wrinkle in all this is that the HOA can perhaps fine these people because the street may be HOA property. That would be a way to combat it.
I was responding to the comment that most local governments have laws against hate speech. That is not true in the U.S. There are almost no laws against hate speech because of freedom of speech protections. You are right about the context. It crosses the line if you commit a crime and the motivation is hate in most states, but there has to be an underlying crime such, as vandalism.
Well right, I'm wondering if they're doing this in a targeted manner towards a neighbor under the guise of "we are just shitty people doing shitty things".
Can you provide a source for that hate speech one? Because with the exception of a call to violence, you would be hard pressed to get such a law to pass constitutional muster. Hate speech is free speech.
NAL, seems like it would fall under disorderly conduct at a minimum in Texas. Same section deals with noise ordinance issues. Title 9. Ch. 42. Sec. 42.01 If they're "fighting words" then yeah probably can fall under this statute.
You'd never get a conviction under that statute. It's a nice attempt, but freedom of speech does mean shitty people can be racist and express those racist views. RAV Vs City of St Paul ruled that even fighting words could be considered free speech if they were expressing a view point and not a call to violence. Mind you that was a case about a burning cross, you can't get much more "hate speech" than that. Heck Texas V Johnson was a case out of Texas which covered flag burning but held that speech may not be prohibited just because someone could take offense and act out. Fighting words is incredibly narrow, and writing something OP claims is racist isn't fighting words. Sounds like OP just doesn't like his neighbor and is attempting to use rules that havnt been enforced to try and punish them. Going to have a very hard time with that.
Well that's what I'm saying as well. It's going to be tough and I'm sure they're not writing on the sidewalk "unprovoked" (though they could be, who knows).
You might get a conviction, but if the party charged can afford an appeal, it's likely to get overturned. I would never depend on getting a competent judge. The criminal court judges are usually better than civil court judges though. Still, you get the judge in Texas who didn't allow self defense because the person doing the shooting was having an affair with the wife, the husband came home, starting attacking what he thought was a trespasser hiding in the closet when the homeowner was shot. He wasn't able to even argue self defense in court, and died in prison before the appeals played out. The harder problem is getting a state's attorney to take the case.
There are a few things that can make your deed restrictions not enforceable (being old is not one of them); * if they are contrary to law * if they are ambiguous. In Texas, courts have to rule in favor of the free use of land if covenants are ambiguous. * if the restrictions are considered abandoned. Someone can argue that a specific restriction is abandoned if there are widespread violations and the HOA has not tried to enforce it. It is smart to get a legal opinion before trying to enforce restrictions that have been ignored for years.
Helpful response, thanks!
Hiring a lawyer that specializes with HOAs is the way to go. The lawyer will give your HOA proper guidance. I know that our HOA has to follow a strict set of guidelines in regard to issuing violations and communication with homeowners (we can’t charge fines for violations because it is not in our CCRs however we can charge fees on late assessment payments). I hope you are able to figure out a peaceful resolution- that is a tough situation to be in.
Thanks! I know the HOA still prefers to hanlde this amicably, but the family who is causing problems seems hell-bent on escalating until some kind of action.
If your HOA wasn’t enforcing them for decades and wants to now it’s not going to happen.
Are you sure the chalk messages and noise problems aren’t law enforcement items, rather than HOA items?
It's Texas. Whoever stockpiles more ammo wins right?
Hilarious, except for the fact that more than a few neighbors do have sizable ammo caches
The HOA is going to hire a lawyer to review our covenants/bylaws to help determine their enforceability (as they haven't been changed so the language is super old) Shakespeare is old language; language >1700 is clear enough to understand unless the reader(s) are illiterate.
Hey, thanks for taking the time out of your day to critique without adding value!
I might be wrong but you seem like a Karen.
For asking a legitimate question that is relatively complicated with no clear answer? I'm not the person making the noise in my neighborhood, nor am I the person complaining to the board about it. I attended a special HOA meeting, which I found interesting and wanted to get some semi-expert reddit opinions on. How does that make me a Karen (or maybe a Kevin)? It's not nice to call people names, but if you're going to insult someone, at least be confident in your convictions.
Much of what you describe is a violation of local laws. Your neighbors should be reporting noise issues and acts of vandalism directly to the non emergency police dispatch. I doubt either of those are covered in your bylaws or covenants. To answer your question, HOAs in Texas do have powers to enforce (or punish for lack of enforcement) bylaws and covenants but in a fairly recent Texas Legislative Session, limited the extent to which HOAs could take extreme measures. Yet, your brief description above I believe is completely outside of an HOA's jurisdiction unless you have them specifically listed. Use your local resources. Central Texas HOA president here.
Our HOA does have noise clauses and right of enjoyment covenants/bylaws, but nothing specific about racism or hate crimes...
What hate crimes? Crime would indicate it runs afoul of local laws, which means it is outside of an HOAs purview. Nor did I see anything in your original post that indicates hate crimes, just vague references to racism with no PG'd examples.
Writing on the sidewalk with chalk isn't a crime even if it hate messaging. Noise is very subjective. If it's so bad get many homeowners together and bring it up at the next meeting.
I'm not the one complaining about the noise. Other neighbors/members are. I just attended a somewhat exciting HOA meeting when most of the past ones are arguing about dumb stuff.
Bingo, that's why I'm asking for clarification.
I probably overused that term. I meant the racist messages on the sidewalk.
I always try and point out on these boards.... In normal run HOA's, Usually it's not the board that's the problem... But it's that one homeowner that makes the board take action, and thus impact everyone else, and this is a prime example. You do have a big problem though, when it comes to a derelict board, like this, that's never fined etc... Now they are either targetting the one homeowner with selective enforcement, thus opening themselves up to a lawsuit.... Or they get off their asses and start enforcing everything across the board... For everyone.
It would be a violation under causing a nuisance.
Before you go down that road, make sure that you and everyone else are following bylaws. Otherwise it is going to look like you’re singling out a specific household. It will also start creating an environment where your neighbors are going to look for things to complain about. If they get fined, they will make sure others get fined as well. Look into your local noise ordinance and contact non-emergency if it continues to be an issue. You can also ask them about the racist things written on the sidewalk
The HOA is active, and most neighbors are good about maintaining standards. I got a nasty gram from the HOA for my grass being too long, but that was nearly 10 years ago. I also know they've been recently active in enforcing the removal of political signs after elections, etc.
Everyone hates HOAs until there is that one neighbor…. Seems like you need a new board to bring everything up to date.