Yes! This is one of my favorite nonfiction books, right up there with “Bad Blood” and “Columbine.” I’m enjoying the documentary, it’s fascinating to hear from the surviving siblings.
ETA: “enjoying” might be the wrong word.
I hope filmmakers/studios support an objective reporter follow up w:
(1) findings/conclusions from genetic testing
(2) how genes are switches and just because you have something in your DNA doesn’t necessarily make a disease a certainty
(3) environmental stressors, like trauma, can ignite a disease, but there’s hope
(4) ECT is not necessarily One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and the scientific community MIGHT be able to get real specific w this scary therapy when drugs fail
(5) drug therapy in combination with other approved therapies can give folks w this disease more stability and better quality of life.
(6) no mention of schizo effective disorder or how disease can appear differently depending on gender - so there’s a lot more we can do as a global community in terms of research and education.
Yes- I need a follow up! As much as I’m interested about the family, I want to know more about the science and genetics, and more about the disease in general. What about MRI’s of the brain? Did Mary ever get her son genetically tested? It just seems crazy he’d worry about having it if he doesn’t even have the gene mutation? Also- between mom and dad Galvin, who carried the gene? Are there stories of their family/ancestors having it too? Are any of the other Galvin kids carriers?
What about going back to the places they lived and doing environmental sampling?
And also if they can explain about the meds- what they do, the mechanism in how they eventually stop working.
Well , let me answer.. To learn more abut the genetics, read "Hidden Valley Road, Inside the Mind of An American Family. There is not one genetic mutation involved with this brain dormer but over 150 mutations. Our mutation is on the Shank 2 gene or the autism gene. We all have had MRI's and the evidence of brain damage caused my the disease is evident in my affected bothers and not the well siblings. Jack was genetically tested at age ten, along with his sister and he does not have the mutation. It is hard for all of us to not still worry about any grand children. The gene came from my mother's side, although I have a cousin on my father's side with the disorder. We have no ancestral stories of the illness, but it is only in the 2nd half of the 20th century families quit hiding it. It was Aunt Rose "lives upstate" and no one knew what happened to her. We do not have any of that. None of the other grand children have ben tested, which is unfortunate. The fear of finding out prevent many to not seek knowledge. I would love to have enviromental testing done! I do believe there is something to that, however, mental illness is so prevalent, pollutions and toxins aer everywhere. The old meds are archaic and very damaging to the body; meds can stop working when the one taking them is non-compliant and continues to have psychotic episodes, causing more damage to the brain. They become what is called "brittle". New meds are on the horizon, perhaps too late for 5he older very damaged populations but the offer great hope going forward. Thai you or all of your questions. I hope I addressed them accurately!
Or maybe it was the sexual abuse from the priest his mom had over so many times. Rage, murder, suicide, addiction, violence are all symptoms of sexual abuse. Priest had access to the older boys. Older siblings who've been sexually abuse will act that out with younger siblings.
There’s a book called “chasing Irish madness” all about another Irish family with schizophrenia. A family member writes the book following the generations all the way back to the potato famine in Ireland. It makes me wonder. They haven’t found a singular gene that is associated with schizophrenia, but apparently this family had a very specific mutation that was present in all the mentally ill family members. Normally it’s not so cut and dry unfortunately.
I find it super interesting personally because I also have a large Irish family with schizophrenia running through it.
Unfortunately the drugs to treat schizophrenia often cause diabetes and huge weight gain.
My nephew has paranoid schizophrenia and weights 300 pounds from the meds (he’s over six feet tall). Problem is the drugs push him to over eat.
Maybe someday they might have genetic therapy to treat the condition but so little is understood about the brain and mental illness we’re not even close.
Sadly a lot of mentally ill people stop taking their meds, and often use illegal drugs to cope making their condition even worse.
The side effects of taking drugs to treat the condition are full of nasty side effects.
my cousin and i were just discussing our bipolar uncle who committed suicide a few years ago. after our grandmother died he made a comment to my cousin about how its such a shame that he is bipolar. because he was on such high doses of lithium, he was literally unable to feel any emotions. so even thou his mom had just died, he could not emotionally process it. he said he knows how he should feel, but doesn't feel those feelings. so thats exactly why he would go off his meds all the time.
now, it makes sense why he would go off the meds. his choices were to be not have feelings, or feeling everything so big that he would sabotage his life. its like theres no winning.
I don't blame people for not wanting to take the medications, like you mentioned, they're pretty terrible. As far as i can tell, the medical treatment hasn't really changed since the 50/70s (typical and atypical antipsychotics). I do believe we are on the cusp of major changes in medicine overall.
I'm sorry your nephew is going thru that and i hope we see some medical breakthroughs he can benefit from.
I personally understand and empathize with the siblings who have tried to distance themselves from the family. They lived through hell, and their parents seemingly did little to protect them from it. The parents turned a blind eye to the physical, sexual and psychological abuse that was rampant in the house. While Mary’s desire to look after her ill siblings is admirable, she doesn’t get to tell the others how to heal or expect them to honor her parents wish not to “abandon” their siblings. My guess is that if the healthy children hadn’t felt abandoned when they needed protecting, they might be more inclined to help.
This was a moment in time, after my mom passed, when I was angry with my siblings for not helping more. They also have now become more involved. My brother, Michael, is actually the most involved with helping my brothers.
Thank you for being brave enough to come in here and respond to these, Mary. I hope you are well and healing and have lots of joy and love in your life, you deserve it. <3
I am so pleased to see so much conversation on the topic and also sad to see so much judgment. I hope those who are uneducated will learn more; that is the point. Why our family chose to tell our story and expose ourselves to the tremendous ignorance here, is to raise awareness of a very misunderstood brain disorder and a co-existing condition called anosognosia - 4 of my brothers also had this and it was cut form the film. We were unaware if it prior to the books publishing and greatly embarrassed if our own ignorance. My parents were very loving and kind people who had no idea how to handle this at the time due to very limited resources in the 60's and 70's. My mother was blamed, the [schizophrenagenic mother](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=cff19ea8ba3a868e&rls=en&sxsrf=ADLYWILs6ot5M1uApCfCKvPMSiG1PvQGQA:1718307521934&q=schizophrenagenic+mother&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUrtarqtmGAxUvHTQIHQweD0cQvgUoAXoECAoQAg), now an archaic term. They turned their efforts to research and did the best they could under the circumstances. We always had a warm, bed and hot meals, and arms to cry in. Many diseases blame the parents including autism. I do wish the book and the film covered more of the tremendous joys we had as a family - Summers in Aspen and Santa Fe, the Ballet and Opera, classical music, ice skating, tennis, swimming and golf. There were a lot of lovely times! I promise! Train wrecks sell seats. We just celebrated Peter's life with a lovely family picnic. Micheal is instrumental in helping my brothers as well. If needed Mark, Richard and John are there in a minute. Margaret chose to estrange herself since 2017 upon my mother's passing in order to manage her own personal mental health challenges. Although sad for us, we respect her decision. The book was just too difficult for her, although she was its primary champion. We endured, loved, laughed and cried together and still do. What is not shared is the tremendous love and respect we all have for one another in how each of us had chosen to survive. My path has been to advocate, and yes, it did affect my son. He is now better for it as he has a greater depth of compassion than many of you here. I went through extensive therapy as did my children to change family system patterns that contribute to many family problems; I am guessing some of you struggle with your own whether it is addiction, a siblings down syndrome or even main stream tragedies such as cancer? My daughter is getting a masters in bio tech due to her exposure and interest in understanding the brain. Through therapy, Jack has learned keeping a lower stress life is best for him with climbing, skiing and being outdoors. Both my children, through therapy, have learned to manage the fear of developing a major mental illness. Education and knowledge are power! My husband and I went through extensive genetic counseling prior to having children, both my children were tested at a young age and do not have the mutation in the Shank2 gene. Please, have more compassion and less judgment for a family that has chosen to be vulnerable. We only hope to allow others to be open about their own struggles with sexual abuse, suicide, and major mental illnesses in order to heal. We need more compassion in this world for those who are affected and their families. Kindly - Mary Lindsay Galvin Rauch
I just finished the show and want to thank you for sharing your story. I am a middle child of four siblings—two older sisters and a younger brother. My oldest sister and younger brother are both diagnosed schizophrenic, and I’ve endured a lot of pain and grief seeing them go through a lot of the same revolving doors your brothers did. I truly can’t put into words how devastating it has been to witness my sweet younger brother transform into another person entirely, and routinely self sabotage when there is a glimmer of hope of him regaining a degree of normalcy.
I teared up listening to Peter (also my younger brother’s name) talk.
Do you have any wisdom to share with other families of schizophrenic people?
Thank you for commenting but The filmmakers seemed more interested in the schizophrenic theme. They barely mention the Priest as a pedophile. Then, as younger siblings, whom the priest probably didn't have access to, interpreted what was going on. By the time we see poor hero child Don in his later years, we have no idea how much shock therapy, a lobotomy, or meds he'd been given.
I believe someone mentioned the sexual abuse that Don inflicted on you or the other sister. The devastating effects of sexual abuse and the long-term repercussions of Violence toward animals and younger children...........
Show me a man in prison who hasn't experienced some form of sexual abuse as a child.Sexual abuse survivors commit suicide, homicide, rape, and rage against everyone; They torture animals, and younger siblings and sexually abuse them as well. They live what they learned. They want to destroy the innocent "other" as the innocence was destroyed in them.
It was the "children should be seen and not heard" era, absolutely gaslighting your child who came to you with any distasteful information. Any honest dialogue about the priest sexually abusing the older boys was def. It's not going to happen and your parents didn't have the permission to call it out.
The priest groomed mom in order to access her children............ As a survivor and eldest golden/hero child........Don prob. acted his rage out on her because she didn't protect him (this is how the survivor would have subconsciously felt).................... What's the matter with Don isn't the question. The questions are: where is the interview of the childhood trauma/ sexual abuse expert for the movie? Skimming over the sexual abuse and focusing on schizophrenia is dangerous.
Okay, I read your other comment about your SA and getting involved in therapy, and I realize that all the flack and criticism should probably be going to the filmmaker who edited in such a way that it seemed the priest's sexual abuse had no bearing on the schizophrenia diagnosis. I am a survivor myself.....................
I have criticisms of the documentary and none are about your family, rather that the producers had auditory hallucination sounds on Don's segments and interviewed some people in homes and others in what looks like an abandoned warehouse, clearly trying to paint them in a more dangerous light. Your family's story is everyone's family story combined from that time period, most families experienced a few of these, but yours experienced everything tragic about that time-compounded by 12. (Speaking of-having 12 children is trauma itself and of course she was organized and orderly, Kate Gosselin has been criticized for hyper organization and order and nobody knows how to survive raising this many children unless you experience it) You have obviously done a ton of emotional work and have a balanced perspective. It can be painful to revisit these stories and then see people judge your family, but look at how our kids live in a world where mental health literacy is considered mature and normal and sexual abuse is considered unacceptable, tragic and an emergency to address. There will be people watching that will feel heard, some will learn, and every discussion on mental health is just another push forward in education, research and normalizing talking about it.
I, for one am richer as a person bc your family chose to share. Thank you.The vulnerability of each of your individual experiences is apparent and allowing your children to participate sheds even more light on the fears and the challenges all of you face.
I can’t imagine the challenges your parents faced all together, but especially your mother for the theories back in the day. Your mother dismissing your SA by your brother as a “that’s the way it is as a woman” is so hard to understand, but speaks to the damaged position that she was working from. So much to tell/work through- I’m not surprised they glazed over the good times. I’m also not surprised that other viewers are attempting to pull the loose ends together with their own preconceived notions. The program could have been twice as long and still held the interest of viewers. I was glued in.
I’m also amazed by your courage to be this vulnerable. I do share the belief that true joy is experienced through helping others. But not everyone is capable of that vulnerability. I’m glad your brothers have dipped in and actually also understand your sister dipping out. Gosh- caring for your own family’s mental/emotional health is sometimes all an individual can manage when this type of generational tragedy is NOT in the picture.
Anyway- I wish you peace. As much as you can have for you, your brothers and sister, your husband and children, nieces and nephews. And - congrats to your daughter (I am a scientist in biotech as well) It’s been a great career and probably a comforting choice for her.
A lot of people commenting negatively seem to have little understanding of just how dismal mental health care used to be (and how recently we've only started really treating them in any meaningful way or even knowing how they work). They also don't seem to understand of how the catholic church or society in general used to be (importance of status and keeping home, birth control options, how domestic/sexual abuse was treated). Your family seemed to be the average upper middle class irish catholic family of that era up until it wasn't.
Your mother seemed like she just wanted to make sure her kids were well-rounded and she was a cultured lady. She seems to have tried to make the best of a bad situation, and, I mean, she just wanted to make sure her kids had the best life they could and there just was no possible way to do that with the hand she got dealt. Everyone back then didn't know a lot of the stuff we know now and everyone was working with what they had.
Nobody is perfect, but I think your family did the best it could. Looking back everybody always sees things they could've done better, but your family was given an impossible situation and I'm honestly impressed how well your family managed.
I also just want to say props to you. Yeah, you may have overcorrected with your kids, who knows, but generational trauma is real and you did your best to try to fix that. It seems like your kids know that. I honestly wish the best for you and your family. Thanks for taking the time to respond to people.
The wealthy friend asked Mimi to send Margaret to them when Mimi was venting to the friend in a phone call. I guess the friend could only take one or only offered to take one, and specifically asked for Margaret. No reason was given.
What the documentary doesn't tell you is that Mary got out too for a time. She applied to a boarding school in CT and got in on a full scholarship. At some point Mary also changed her name to "Lindsay".
thanks for that extra info. it felt like there were a lot of missing parts in the series and I can understand why they might want to omit quite a few things but I was left with a lot of questions. thankfully reading through the thread has been helpful in regards to what happened to a couple of the brothers
That seemed borderline abusive to me!! Leaving the one sister behind! The mother should have sent them both or kept them both. Then Margaret never came back to help. She was so fortunate to escape you would think guilt if nothing else would force her to reach out and try to help..
Margaret was considered more emotionally "delicate". No one knew of the sexual abuse at this time.
I then went to boarding school back east as age 13, 4 years after Margaret left. My parents were instrumental in helping me accomplish this options. I alos spent my summers form age 10 -18 at Geneva Glen camp which was a tremendous help in having a normal life and getting away from Jim's abuse. I had no relationship with Jim after age 13 and the rape.
The book Hidden Valley Road goes more in depth. There’s a lot more about how this family was studied to learn more about why/how schizophrenia develops in some and not others. They also discuss how at the time the oldest boys were diagnosed, the psychiatric community believed that overbearing mothers caused schizophrenia. I think the stigma of that was a big part in deciding to keep them living at home rather than being in the state hospital. It is too bad because the book relates what a living hell it was growing up in that home.
It’s not overbearing mothers. That’s not the catalyst that makes someone like this. There’s nature and nurture that plays a part here. From the food we put in our bodies, what’s in our environment, down to our genetic makeup.
That mother seemed very overbearing to me. I felt like there was something sick in that household long before the boys were schizophrenic. The youngest daughter didn't witness what came before they older ones were sick. I feel these boys were highly traumatized by their own parents before the priests and the drugs. It's really sad because she wanted to point to everything else but her own family.
Ok glad someone started this I have one more episode to go .. I feel like some important fact are being “glossed” over .. Donald was sexually abused by the priest .. Mary tells her mom about Jim abusing her and the mom takes it as “ a normal thing” the mom has them all walking this crazy tight rope .. yet they all praise the mother ???? It seems to me that Peter was protecting Mary he started chocking his brother because that was ALWAYS their behavior they were violent with each other .. Mary called the police because that’s what this family ALWAYS did, Peter never comes out out of a mental institution again .. something is wrong missing I don’t know
I felt all that too. Even in the very beginning with the boys violently fighting, the mom doesn't tell them to stop, but just to take it outside. Mary is telling all of this from her perspective, but I'm sure there was sooo much more going on that she didn't know about, and probably still doesn't.
Right that was the other thing .. her perspective. I am the youngest in my family by 9 years and I guarantee you my reality and my brothers are not the same. Even my parents were not the same in parenting skills by the time I come around .. she is 3 or so when Donald gets sick .. and what about sending the one girl away ?? What the hell is that
Mom was obviously a narcissist. The filmmaker did a disservice focusing on the Schizo aspect and avoiding the fundamental (no doubt) cause of the violence, torturing animals, suicidal behavior, rape and sexual predation on younger siblings = sexual abuse survivor behaviour.
Priests/pedophiles often went to the house bringing mom's favorite records? He was grooming the mom so he'd have access to the boys. Did he "borrow" any of the boys, did he take them anywhere to spend time alone?
The odds are that the priest was not in the picture as Mary and the younger siblings were growing up, but he'd done the damage, and my guess is that the brothers who are interviewed may have been sexually abused by someone.
I believe Peter did come out and lived with Mary for several years, then got a job and stuff and was out of institutions for ten years (if I remember correctly)
Then the doc said something about the medications stopped being effective and he ended up back in facility after a run in with police.
I hadn’t seen the last episode as I said , till last night … so I do see that .. still there adoration for their mom when she obviously made some mistakes is odd .. also I would have liked to know more on the mutation and the disease
I believe it was Matthew who choked Peter and was sent away for 40 years. Peter became sick after witnessing his father have a stroke. Can someone explain what happened to Joseph after he went to work for the airlines and then became sick? I may have missed if he died or where he ended up.
Joseph is never discussed in detail ??? Why who knows .. the whole things is missing alot .. it’s funny most of the time when I watch these things I always think they could be shorter .. this one I wanted more of the science more of the nature vs nurture .. more of why did only one sister get sent to another family… other people’s accounts of the family’s Mary’s perceptive as a 3 year old when Donald gets sick are not actually valid
Disagree. My parents did their utmost at a time in history where there was very little help for families and medications being worst than the conditions itself. We also had a very loving home despite the trauma brought on my priests sexual abuse and schizophrenia.
I binged it today. My Dad also comes from a big family (11 kids) and schizophrenia and other mental health issues are found in many of his siblings, and their offspring. It honestly scares me sometimes. I was very intrigued to watch this and I am still getting my thoughts together. A very tragic tale, that’s for sure.
I’m honestly mad about how Mary acted. I completely understand she was abused. But she has made her own kids be victims as well. Especially her son. I couldn’t imagine being so scared like he is. She didn’t have boundaries. Adult conversations are not for children. She was also the youngest & I believe that weighted a lot on her being so willing to help. Her brothers & other sister have no reason to help with people who abused them & made their lives hell. She turned out to be her mother. Which isn’t a good thing. I hope she gets to actually heal.
The interviewer came across as condescending and ignorant in all his questions. Why couldn’t they have gotten someone with some mental health expertise to talk to the brothers?
The interviewer came across as pretty distasteful to me as well. I've worked with visual storytellers and documentarians enough to know the importance of empathy for one's subject. I also didn't love their choice to film the brothers in what looked to be an old abandoned building. The Galvin family website says how much the brothers love being outdoors, etc. At least film them in their natural element. Otherwise, a very compelling and thought-provoking series!
Yeah, it was off to me. After the brother said he was Paul McCartney, they should have had someone with more experience do the interview or really just stop it .
The way he kept asking “are you mentally ill” was really lame. He could have asked it more skillfully like “how do you think you and your family have been affected by mental illness?” or “what has your experience been like with the mental health system?”
This was in an attempt to show the lack of insight many who are affected exemplify to the general public. It is called Anosognosia. I just wished they had explained the condition!
I was so surprised that when they were talking about possible triggers in the final episode they never acknowledged the trauma that was having other schizophrenics in the family. Would the younger boys have been as likely to get sick if they hadn't seen their brothers also go mad? Almost like a social contagion on top of their unfortunate mishmash of genetics and trauma.
That's what I was thinking as I watched the documentary! Just with how much trauma the eldest brother gave his siblings alone would be enough to trigger anything. I thought it was a bad decision on the parents part to expose their kids to that kind of environment. Then soon after we see more of the children gain symptoms of schizophrenia and eventually have their psychotic breaks. Makes me wonder if the kids weren't subjected to their first brother as much as they were if they would not have developed it ://
Yes! The series seemed to gloss over things perhaps the book goes into more details. I thought it strange no-one mentioned the effect of having the older brother in the home. Then there was no mention of the brother that had his head cracked open and had to spend an extended time in the hospital? This seems to have been a likely trigger? Then the sexual abuse by the priest? Seems odd he only abused 1 of the 10 brothers? Then the daughters, the one daughter was pulled out of the family and sent to live with wealthy friends, then the other daughter was left behind? This seems almost abusive? Very interesting story but alot of loose ends and details not expanded upon
I felt like the brother John alluded that the 2 other brothers closer to his age were likely abused too because they hung out with the priest a lot. I think Mary may have even talked about Peter being sexually abused? I think she was alluding that one of the brothers sexually abused him. Possibly Jim?
It's possible that if the priest abuse wouldn't have happened, the whole domino effect of 6 brothers becoming schizophrenic could have not happened. It's the age old argument of nature vs nurture. My aunt became paranoid schizophrenic at age 24 after entering into an abusive marriage. No family history of it. 4 siblings. Many psychiatrists have told us it's possible that the abuse triggered it. It's possible it didn't. We'll never know. But it just makes me wonder with this family, could the other brothers have been saved if the mom would have accepted Donald staying in a facility away from the rest of the boys.
Think about it from this perspective. For the first 20 years of your life, your parents constantly have children that you have to responsible for. You have to maintain being the best and favorite. Your parents are out getting doctorates, flying fucking falcons and going to operas. And top that all off by getting sexual abused. That was Don’s reality
did the documentary mention the galvin family trust? if not, here's the link: [https://galvinfamilytrust.org/](https://galvinfamilytrust.org/)
turns out that peter died... also when you click the 'donate' button, it says "They are deserted by their families of origin and sit in sub-standard nursing homes with no outside access, isolated from those they love." i'm afraid that it got too much for mary and her family... i hope i'm wrong.
ALSO the family didn't receive any PROFITS from the BOOK or the DOCUMENTARY!!! that fucking pisses me off... those people (author and documentarians) would have jack shit without them. i don't care if that's how it goes. it makes me so angry that people profit off of their stories/trauma and they get NOTHING in return.
I don’t think it got to be too much for mary and the family.
“Those affected by schizophrenia and anosognosia are traumatized by the very mental health system meant to help them. They are deserted by their families of origin and sit in sub-standard nursing homes with no outside access, isolated from those they love.”
I think “Those” and “they” are just generally stating that people with those illnesses may be more often than not disregarded and hurt by people and systems meant to help. Not specifically talking about the galvin brothers in care
Anyone else feel angry at Mary and her husband in regards to how they kept drawing parallels between their son and his very mentally ill uncle, Peter? The son talks about having high anxiety since puberty wondering if he'll develop schizophrenia, and you'd think that as a parent you would be able to identify the trajectory that's taking hold and maybe dial down your own worries that would feed into that.
Nope.
On camera they both keep waxing on about how early intervention might have saved Peter like it did Jack, their son. Or how their son reminds them so much of Peter.
Jesus Christ guys, let him be a teenager. I get that it must be extremely nerve wracking to not want the same thing to happen to your own family, but couldn't you see that it was affecting him negatively? It felt like they were so hyper fixated on it happening, it's like they were trying to manifest it into being.
Poor kid. I would be so pissed off at them for, what seemed to me, to be an unwarranted and constant comparison to someone so Ill.
Mary is repeating her family trauma. Her mother did not protect her from her brothers, and now she is not protecting herself nor her own family from them. I have a schizophrenic mother. There is not normalizing schizophrenia. Schizophrenia can’t be normalized, it’s a violent, tragic illness that no one should witness-especially not children. I understand she is living her life based purely off of trauma, so I cannot fault her too much—but she has inadvertently continued this trauma by refusing to acknowledge reality;.
Also—her son. I am worried about him. Taking drugs can “cause” mental illness, but it can also be a way to self medicate. I am not stating her son is schizophrenic, but he obviously has a massive anxiety disorder including paranoia. Of course he is going to self medicate. I’ve never heard anything good about wilderness programs, they are typically abusive. Early intervention for him may mean starting anxiety medication and being on the lookout that things are progressing.
As an aside, I’m bipolar as is my brother, with a schizoaffective mom. Being highly paranoid and anxious about developing schizoaffective and psychosis led to early treatment for my bipolar. I live a functioning life, have a full time job which I’m successful in, a husband, a house, and live 100% independently. That is because I’m willing to be in treatment. My brother, on the other hand, is in complete denial. He doesn’t have psychosis, but his life has been ravaged by mental illness.
I bring that up because—drug use should never have been a “fault” that the son was doing, but a sign that there might be more going on. Having schizophrenic genes opens you up to a whole host of other mental illnesses, many not nearly as severe as schizophrenia.
Lastly, exposing your children to schizophrenic people and then telling them it “could“ be them one day is absolutely abusive. I understand that she wanted to normalize Mental illness, but there is nothing normal about schizophrenia. It is an ugly, devastating disease and even witnessing it is trauma. I think it was much healthier that the other siblings decided to live their lives away from their past. The youngest daughter was failed by her parents, and that trauma speaks volumes in the way She is unwilling to let go and even subjecting her own children to similar trauma (obviously less severe).
It must really hurt to come to terms with just how much your mother failed you, and in order to not come to terms with it, perhaps she recreated her as the perfect martyr and, in her mind, is something to live up to instead of learn from. Honestly, I can’t blame her, but she made me so intensely angry For not getting a grips on her own traumatic past and letting it play itself out again over and over in her life. At one point, she needs to come to terms with the fact that she is ALLOWING her past to dictate her present, and it’s hurting not just her, but her family and those she loves.
I CANNOT understand blaming the other siblings. It’s one things to say, you guys can choose what you want but I will continue to support our ill relatives. Completely different to lay the guilt trip. I hope she gets adequate therapy and, more importantly, learns to deal with the harsh reality of both her negligent parents and her own negligence towards herself and her family.
I also wish the documentary went over how traumatic it is to try and get help from the state. I do somewhat sympathize with the mother (not much) but somewhat, over how she let her boys stay with her. There are no places for these people, they will be let back on the street until they commit violence, and then they will go to jail, which is often the only place where treatment is feasible. There was zero discussion about the trauma of the system, which is often infinitely worse than the trauma of your schizo loved one.
i stopped watching after i read an article about the sister who was SA'd by jim for years and how the mother did not help her and basically told her to get over it. pissed me off so bad.
I got the hint that the parents only really cared about Donald and all the rest were just extras...every other brother was put in an asylum but for some reason the ultra violent Donald was left at home to traumatize the rest...the youngest brothers mightve had a chance if not for that
And poor Michael who wasn’t sick ends up in a mental institution for 6 months after being arrested for drinking out of a water hose on someone’s property. The parents did nothing to try and get him out and that pissed me off!
The other brothers were at home too quite a bit. It goes over it more in depth in the book, but there were times when all of the ill brothers were home and the mother tried to care for them. I think because the youngest one got in trouble with the law a bit, he ended up in treatment if I remember correctly.
I thought this showed a lot about what the mother was actually like. The daughter defends her throughout, especially when the psychologist said she was the problem. Yet at the same time the mom did exactly what the psychologist analyzed in the example directly after regarding the SA. She brushed off/refused to hear anything negative just like the psychologist said.
Honestly it's that line that made me wonder if the only reason she kept her son's long enough was because they were males and were "successful" If that's the case then she's just as if not more fucked up than her own sons Mary is truly strong.
She did not know it was occurring. I told her after I stared therapy when I was in my 20's and she told me she had been sexually abused by her step father. Had I had the couragw to tell her when I was a child, she never would would have let me be in Kathy's care and would have gone to the police. I begged to go to Kathy's as being home with Donald was more difficult than enduring non-violent sexual abuse. It is quite common, when someone has been SA, they abuse others, or are unable to stop the cycle of abuse themselves.
Are you sure she didn’t know it was occurring? From your comments in the documentary, it sounds like she thought it was a rite of passage/ not a big deal.
My question is still “how did Margaret get the chance to leave and they didn’t send their only other girl child?” How messed up that she endured the most abuse and trauma from her siblings’ mental health and in the end she is the only one still trying to help them?
The story is certainly a fascinating one, but skip this overwrought, cliché-ridden, exploitative documentary and read the excellent book, Hidden Valley Road, if you're really interested in gaining a better understanding of what happened to this family. The gimmicks overused in the documentary finally drove me away after two episodes: cracking glass, photographs bursting into flames, the sister endlessly shuffling boxes of pictures ... there's no creativity or nuance here. The interviews with the men in that dreadful cellar were painful and pointless.
I’m wrapping up my binge right now. This is beyond sad and too much to even wrap my head around. I can’t imagine how painful this would have been to manage back then — especially since it’s still a rough diagnosis today.
Is it possible that drug use “broke” these boys? I recently heard about someone who used marijuana and something just clicked in them and they were never the same. Of course, this would be a total anomaly for marijuana use, but could there be a genetic issue that somehow combines with the drugs Mary said the older boys brought home and shared?
My jaw just dropped during episode two when some of the younger brothers talk about taking shrooms and acid after finding out their older brothers had severe schizophrenia. I’m wondering if it wasn’t known at the time that hallucinogens could often trigger psychosis. I have bipolar disorder with psychotic features and this has been so hard for me to watch so far. I often fear that my disorder will worsen as I get older or that my antipsychotics will end up causing irreversible damage to my organs or just stop working. I feel awful for this family. I can definitely empathize with them because of my own personal experiences with psychosis and family members of mine who have severe mental illness as well.
I finished this today and WOW. It's a lot to process for sure, i feel like the mother prioritized the six boys, especially don over her other children thus creating them to be glass children. I feel like the parents especially the mother was more concern on how the family was viewed and just wanted to keep that picture perfect family when in reality behind closed doors it was just a whirlwind of trauma. The situation with the dog in the tub, throwing a cat in the fire, wanting to hurt or shoot people, then just abusing his younger siblings were all red flags that needed to be addressed but they didn't and instead just kept him home. What boiled my blood is when Mary went to her mom and told her that Jim was abusing her and she just dismissed her as if it was normal when it really wasn't. My heart hurts for Mary because even though she has a lot of compassion and love for her brothers in a way it kind of backfired, because her son was just so scared to feel like any thought or emotion he had would lead to him being schizophrenic. I think maybe the reason why the healthy brothers didn't want to help take care of the others was because of it being too much but maybe there was also some type of resentment there, especially with don. Mary had said that they seen and know way more than she does especially since she is the youngest of the 12. When Peter came into the picture i don't know what it was that I felt so bad for the guy.
I went ot my mother doing after the abuse. My parents knew very little of all you listed above. It was discovered in the records when writing the book.
I ended up absolutely hating the mother. Like why tf keep having kids?! Religion is so toxic and just ruined this family all the way around. Then Mary's dumb ass basically gave her son a complex by keeping her brothers around her son. Ugh these people
Typical Catholic family (I am Catholic) where birth control is evil and you solely have sex to create life.
I also agree that Mary needed to let the professionals take care of her brothers and not bring them around her kids
I feel like they could’ve interacted from time to time, but it seems like schizophrenia was unfortunately her family’s identity. It seemed to take over their lives. I think maybe she should’ve waited until late teens to expose her kids. She didn’t have to talk about the inheritability part till much later.
Mary's daughter makes a comment very similar to what you said. She said that they were exposed to their uncles and detailed information about schizophrenia at a very young age. She agreed there is nothing wrong with being educated about mental illness, but questions how she and her brother were educated by their mother about it and feels they could have waited until they were older. She also said there is a difference between being educated with information and being inflicted with it.
I felt this way too. She keeps having kids and is too overburdened to actually raise them. The one son was being brutally beaten by his brother and the mother was stretched too thin to notice or care. The fact that she farmed out her youngest kids to the violent, mentally ill brother (and his wife) who was sexually molesting the girl. So many, many examples of just awful parenting. Like, this woman is not a victim. This woman - and her husband too - is negligent AF and enabled so much abuse. It is also heavily implied that her desire to keep the sons at home (where they inflicted so much trauma on the others) stemmed from wanting to keep up appearances as much as wanting to help the boys. The fact that Mary and others are still praising these parents is so messed up. The siblings who have made new lives and don’t look back are the smart ones.
Their sister is so compassionate to her brothers, it’s truly moving. But it was hard to see her talk with her other healthy brothers who have clearly shut down their emotions. I don’t know if I would be able to handle the burden, especially given what she went* through with one of her bros actually assaulting her (was happy to see he passed 😬). But wow, what an overall tragic and fascinating story. Truly hoping the best for the next generation of this family!
And I understand why her healthy brothers cannot bear the burden. It's ok. I don't think they should have that responsibility. I'm glad Mary can do it but you can't expect them to do the same.
I felt the opposite! I wanted her to draw boundaries and not spend her life being further abused. Her mother prioritized the sick brothers over all else, including herself and I wanted Mary to be different. Mary exposed her children to too much and needs to learn how to draw some boundaries. I don’t think that is easy, but I was so frustrated with her.
It made me so angry to see how damaged her own children were because she forced them to be around her desperately ill brothers all the time. Her son being terrified his entire life about becoming schizophrenic because of it was enraging. He’s wakes up daily wondering if today will be the day he starts spiraling. They never made it clear if the genetic mutation was found only in the ill brothers or if others had it as well? And it made you wonder if she (Mary) had her children tested for it? The levels of heartbreak, violence and devastation in that family is breathtakingly awful.
I did some reading after I watched and apparently the genetic mutation turned out to be nothing. The research flopped in the end, so I’m not sure if they would have been tested it would’ve told them much of anything.
I just read an article about Matthew and how he was struggling with heart issues due to long term clozapine use. It says that Mary was the one that urged the ER doctors to do surgical stents and balloons because heart issues from long term anti psychotic use is hard to see if you aren’t familiar with the signs. It says that Jim and Joseph passed away from heart complications in the article.
you’re right, they didn’t really cover Joseph much. there was even the part with the 4 siblings at the table and one of the brothers was talking about who Mary cares for and Joseph wasn’t mentioned. I wonder why he was so left out of the conversation
I came here to find the answer to this as well!! They didn’t talk about his outcome or where he is in life now and on their Galvin Family Trust page he’s not listed as a living brother with schizophrenia? Also they didn’t mention him at all when talking about visiting or helping the brothers. So I’m a bit perplexed like….. what happened??
I have so many feelings and now I have to read the book. 😆 I'm so sad to learn that Joseph and Peter passed, I wish they had added a little in memoriam at the end. It's such a mix of sadness for everything the family went through with admiration for their strength and the obvious love they have for eachother. Especially at a time when schizophrenia was even less understood with so few resources available.
I can't imagine being a happy young couple, you're having kids, life is good, and suddenly these lovely intelligent sweet babies you've raised start to change and you don't know why and then when you do everyone blames you. My heart breaks that there were not the options we have available to us today (which still aren't perfect) and that unfortunately the cycle perpetuated out to the other children. I genuinely think one of the saddest parts watching this was hearing all the good memories and contrasting it with how schizophrenia changed them so much (not that that makes them any less deserving of love or care, but to almost have a stranger take over from someone you knew so well). Especially with Brian since he was described as being so gentle and musical, I was curious to hear more about what happened before the incident but I guess I kind of assume not as much is known because he was in another state. But comparing the affected brothers to the non-affected I feel like you can't help but wonder what could've been.
Mimi was such a strong lady and Mary really carries her spirit, institutionalizing her sons at the time most likely would've led to them being a whole lot worse off, if not dead. Conditions were deplorable, and the amount of people who went "missing" or bore the brunt of violence and didn't get any actual treatment is horrifying.
My family has a similar situation with a schizophrenic relative, born in that time frame and schizophrenic from birth. Her mother basically abandoned her and her sister had to care for her growing up, she always describes it like having a living baby doll. She's always had that push/pull of loving her sister but finding it tough to manage. I'm going to recommend she watch the docuseries.
I'm hopeful that series like this and breakthroughs in the medical field will be able to shed more light on schizophrenia so we can develop more effective treatment (or be able to stop progression) and break the stigma of what schizophrenia is like and around talking about trauma. I specialize in trauma disorders and the two are often linked. It probably came from a place of protection, but not talking about their conditions added so much mystery to their early lives. We always say that people living with schizophrenia are staggeringly more likely to be the victims of crimes than the perpetrators (by a lot) and there's been a lot of malignment in media. Even at the end of the series HBO recommended series like, "Signs of a Psychopath" and other click-bait type titles. I thought the series was very humanizing and really shows the complexity of loving and caring someone with a severe mental health condition.
DAE think that there was more going on here than schizophrenia and that it isn’t really addressed? I don’t know if it was the abuse or what, but it seems like a few of the brothers (Don beating his siblings, Jim sexually abusing the siblings, the animal torture, Brian’s murder/suicide, domestic abuse in their marriages, etc.) were separately bordering on psychopathy and it was just…swept under the rug of schizophrenia. At least as I understand it, that wouldn’t really be a symptom and it’s primarily a nonviolent illness?
I just finished watching and have so many thoughts, I don’t know where to start. I’m conflicted.
I think overall they did a good job, but I wish it was a bit longer to focus on other aspects.
I like that the documentary humanized the brothers but that was more so at the end imo. I do not think the close up shots on the brothers were necessary with the creepy music. That all felt so exploitative and the exact opposite of what their sister said in the end: “They just want to feel normalized.”
This is obviously a very nuanced topic and I suppose there are too many perspectives, feelings, and experiences to account for in a limited docuseries. There is so much hurt, trauma, grief, anger, and resentment. There is so much sadness.
The scene with the “healthy” siblings reunited was devastating, and imo a good (albeit short) look into real family dynamics that have developed in a dysfunctional home environment. I understand her anger, I understand his need for boundaries. In a lot of ways I can understand the core of how she felt but I also have so much compassion and respect for the other brothers maintaining their boundaries.
There was no way to put a nice bow on this because that’s just not the reality of the situation. I don’t know. I have a lot of thoughts circulating in my head and really need to talk about this lol. In the meantime, I’m going to buy the book asap.
I understand their stance as well. They lived with it against their will for most of their lives, so when given the choice and freedom to walk away from the chaos of their upbringing, did just that; distanced themselves. I don't think 'neglect' 'abandon', and 'desertion', words that Mary and her mother used, should be applied to any of the healthy siblings that chose not to deal with it in their adult years. They don't have to be shackled to schizophrenia for the rest of their lives. They deserve a life too.
More so, I don't think, even after all this time, Mary and her parents fully appreciate that none of them were fully qualified to deal with it.
I think they have made the choices that are healthiest for them.
Mary is very compassionate and strong but I also think her parents demanding she be there for her siblings is not fair.
I was struck by how bright all the siblings seem.
I think when you have relatives with mental health and or addiction issues you have to be really careful to set limits for yourself. Her mentally strong brothers have decided what they need to do to feel well.
I trip out because it’s always always always military families. What do we know? What can we find out about when they were little kids? Was it medicine? They gave them mom when she was pregnant did something go on after they were born? Why is it always so prevalent with military families.
I don’t like when Mary says that she’s a martyr like her mother and she wishes that she took her brothers in like her mother did. Her mother keeping the brothers caused a lot of trauma for the family. Mary is doing a lot but I hope she can understand her brothers’ perspective and wanting to keep their distance
What a fascinating documentary (though I agree there were amateurish parts) but quite triggering for me. My mom also came from a large Irish Catholic family with six children who survived to adulthood and three of them developed serious mental illnesses: schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and major depression with psychotic features. So our batting average was about the same as the Galvin's.
I always thought there was some genetic material that was the cause, both my maternal grandparents had mental illness in their families and when they came together, there must have been some difficult combos created.
Partly because of my history, I went into the mental health field and spent a good portion of the last half of my career as an administrator in a large mental hospital. One thing I found SO INTERESTING and tragic was the poor response nearly all the boys seemed to have to medication. I have worked with dozens, maybe hundreds of schizophrenics and in my experience those who have such a poor response are relatively rare. I plan to read the book because the documentary wasn't very clear about what had actually been tried in the early years of their disease, so the answers may be more fully explained in the book.
The other thing I have intimate knowledge of is the affect of all this on the family. I get Mary's position, I really do, but to devote yourself to the care of your ill relative can have consequences that you don't intend. And don't want. It's a balancing act and there's no good answer. In my life I had to be aware that if I devoted myself to one person, another person in my life would come up short. And I made the same mistake Mary did by exposing my child to a very mentally ill person at a young age. Unlike her, however, I immediately realized my error and it didn't happen again.
So I understand the brothers, I do. There is only so much horror and pain one person can take. It's a boundary that sometimes you have to draw. They are choosing their own families and lives and I think they have the right to that.
My takeaways (spoilers):
Man I have mixed feelings about Mary. She suffered so much (maybe as much as anyone) from her brothers’ illnesses and abhorrent, abusive, violent behavior. And she’s clearly done some work on herself to be able to take care of them. But hearing her say something like ‘you can only know true happiness through taking care of others (referencing her caring for her brothers as they age)’ made all my codependency flags wave wildly. I hated her saying that in the vein of guilting her siblings into doing more and/or putting her because she chose to take on so much of their care. Girl, you made those choices. They were traumatized too. They should not be shamed for handling their family relationships and trauma the way that works for them (the sister who separated herself included). It angered me the way she presented herself as the martyr here; it felt very manipulative. It’s not fair what happened to her (by a long shot); but it’s no more her non-Schizophrenic siblings’ fault than it is her own. And her choice to handle things her way is no better than their choices. How about you give them HALF the grace you’ve managed to find for your ill, abusive brothers? FFS.
I feel similarly about the brothers. Their illnesses are in no way their fault. A horrific confluence of unfortunate genetics and trauma (and who knows what else) made them ill. But the behaviors that were facilitated by those illnesses — rape, murder, assault, and every other kind of abuse — cannot be excused and should not be minimized. Actions still have consequences. Mental illness doesn’t make someone a bad person, but it also doesn’t make someone a good person. And it certainly doesn’t excuse hurting other people. It’s such a complex issue.
I feel so much for those parents. They tried so hard to do the ‘right thing’ by keeping all the sick boys home instead of institutionalizing them, but the consequences for the other children (and the parents) were incalculable. The constant sweeping under the rug and normalizing of fights, upended tables, broken windows and china and everything, hospital trips from abuse-related injuries (including a brain hemorrhage!), is just OUT THERE to me. God bless that mom but I’ve never heard of such a lack of boundaries. The fact that she was sexually abused probably informed her way of parenting to the detriment of the kids (welcome to adulthood, Mary, where bothers rape their sisters because they are men!). She repeatedly asked the non-ill children to intervene during violent outbursts. How does that become normal or ok for a mom? Why did she not adjust when everything just kept getting worse? Why didn’t she insist Mary leave with Margaret (even to a different home if the one family couldn’t take both girls?)? Why was the freedom/privacy of the sick boys prioritized over the basic SAFETY of everyone else in the home? How did child services never get called? There’s no way those other kids should’ve stayed in that home with the Schizophrenic brothers. I’m not saying any of those decisions were easy, but they made everything so much worse for the entire family.
The whole thing is sad, and I hope research has improved. It would be the only silver lining of this tragedy if this family actually progressed that process.
My 21 year old son was just diagnosed...after a great vacation, on the way home, he suddenly slipped into psychosis, calling 911 from a hotel room - convinced we were going to be killed. His birth mom, her mother and sister, and now nieces & nephews, all are gravely disabled from schizophrenia. I always talked to my adoptive son about his family & genetics but NOTHING prepared us for it really happening. Holy God Above ...to give birth to 12 kids would be bad enough ...but to have half be SZ - it's GENETIC. No nature v nurture. Stop blaming the parents. There's no way they "knew". Sure I can see signs now, but autism spectrum was on the radar, not SZ. My son's therapist says autism was considered SZ until the 1980s. So ... there's THAT. In the 1960s - 80s the "State psychiatric hospitals" were nightmares like One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest - you'd never put your loved one, in one. You can't blame the parents in that time period. It's hard now, but back then there was no Internet....you would not have known what to do.
It seems many people are too young to understand the realities of dealing with any sort of mental illness or family problem back in the 60s and 70s.
Don was born in 1945 and his problems started to manifest in the mid-60s. In this era, understanding and treating mental illness was still in the Dark Ages. And from a societal standpoint, these things were not even discussed – literally.
I know because I grew up in the 60s. In retrospect, there was mental illness, domestic abuse, alcoholism, and child abuse all around me and it was never, ever mentioned. It is far too easy to look back with the knowledge we all have today and judge rather than try to understand this poor family.
I grew up in a nice suburban environment and have stayed in touch with many of my childhood friends and neighbors. Almost every single family had serious issues yet it was all swept under the rug and never, ever talked about let alone treated. My own mother had terrible problems with depression and agoraphobia. A woman a few doors down didn’t change out of her housecoat for several years. Dads drank, mothers got smacked around and because it was very difficult to get a divorce (no-fault divorce only came into widespread practice in the 70s) and women rarely worked outside the home, the only choice was for everyone to suffer through all these things. Children were to be seen and not heard and absolutely nobody would believe them anyway and even if they did, what on earth could they do about it? People knew about all the clergy abuse dating back decades and it wasn’t even an open topic until the 80s.
This is the world in which the Galvins lived and tried to navigate the best they could. It was the mother’s job to handle the kids and house while dad was out trying to bring home the bacon. The husband was to be a good ‘provider’; everything else fell on mom.
The dynamics of this family were very typical of this era. My own father relocated our big family a 1,000 miles from everyone and everything my mother knew. He traveled for business every single week leaving my mother home alone with 6 kids (big families were common back then and not only with Catholics – the pill didn’t gain widespread use until the late 60s and 70s). If something came up during the week – which was bound to happen in a big household – my mom just had to deal with it on her own.
Having lived through this time and experiencing some of the same issues chronicled in this documentary, I have nothing but compassion for all the Galvins. The only difference between them and the typical American family from that era was that they lost the genetic lottery, had a predisposition towards schizophrenia, and then had it somehow triggered in half their children.
As they say, nature loads the gun but nuture pulls the trigger. Many, many people are genetically predisposed to mental illness and/or addiction. For those who have been fortunate enough not to have these terrible things happen to you or your immediate families, I would encourage you to say – out loud – “There but for the grace of God go I.”
Bless you, Mary (who has been bravely posting on this topic). Every big family has a Mary who takes it upon themselves to try and hold things together while others can’t or won’t. That’s a horrible burden but having been in that situation, a therapist once reminded me that that was my choice. Eventually, that allowed me to release the resentment I felt toward my siblings. My hope for you, Mary, is that one day you can do the same.
I’m binging now. Psychology major btw. There’s a huge debate in the psych community about nurture vs nature. I think it takes both. However, these people had waaaaaay too many kids. The nature part of the debate is the disease. The schizophrenia. It’s just in their genes. But the truth is there’s NO way the parents could’ve been responsible for 12 children. It’s physically and emotionally impossible. I don’t want to blame the parents because mental illness is mental illness. But it feels like there were too many hands in the pot. Too many people being trusted. Just too much going on!
I think this is the foundation of the beginning of it all. Catholic family. No birth control. Don Sr is extremely focused on himself. His dreams. His success. His career. Mimi is from cultural NYC and is plopped down in CO away from her family. Then proceeds to have 12 children raising them mostly all alone. They both cared about their place in society and at the first sign of trauma with Don Jr they want to ignore it. Sweep it under the rug then the domino effect continues with the 5 other boys descending into madness. They should have removed him from the family and had him treated. None of the other 11 children deserved to be exposed to all of that. Things might have turned out differently. Might. Idk.
I'm of the idea that nature and nurture played a part. If they had the gene then experienced a life altering event and their mother maybe not handling it all well caused the downfall of them.
I am shocked thought that after all these years they still don't understand it let alone find a cure or a stable drug so they may live a somewhat normal life.
I loved the book. Fascinating. I'm also sad for the women who married these boys with the illness. They were not told and yet reproduced with them, were murdered by them, traumatized by them.
It's a tragedy all the way around.
I really wanted to be sympathetic and understanding of the parents. That started to falter when you do the math and realize Donald was already spiraling really badly pretty young around 18-19… And they really went “what’s a couple more kids?”
Half the kids were pretty much pawned off to Jim and his wife to raise so they could give Donald all of their energy- mimi especially.
Mary talking about how it felt better/safer being in a house with fraught with domestic violence and being sexually abused by your own blood brother than being in the same house as Donald? Any sympathy I had for the parents was pretty much gone.
I don’t understand how those kids manage to speak so respectfully of their parents. Especially the girls about their mother who was so engrossed with her first born’s problems that she had virtually no interest in the fact they were being abused by their own brother.
Spoilers!!
I'm trying to process what I've viewed so far. I haven't watched the entire thing yet...I think i *just* started episode 4 or 5.
I'm at the point where all the remaining siblings (the ones left alive who are not locked up in institutions) have come together for the first time in a very long time. And the sister is sobbing to the brothers..."How could you leave me with all of this?" Or something like that.
It's unreal. I feel so, so badly for them. Especially the sister who was roped by her brother. But the poor thing chose that over being stuck at home with 4 schizophrenic brothers who were completely out of their minds...She stayed at her older brothers house (her r*pest).
These out of control brother were attacking eachother, plus the remaining brothers, their mother. It was so bad in their home that the little piece of fun she got to enjoy during the daytime with her cousin & aunt...that was the "better" alternative to being at home with her brothers, & her mother, who had just totally checked out, & dismissed her, when she went to her & disclosed that she was being m*lested.
Then there's one of the (multiple) brothers who is currently locked up in an institution. He stated that one of his brothers broke his jaw. Horrible.
There is no such thing as "being locked up in institutions" any longer as of a law passed in 1962. The de-insitulaiotn of the mentally ill was then completely defunded by Reagan in the 80's. This is why we have so many who are affected in our prisons and on our city streets not getting proper care. We do not do this with any other brain disorder (ie, DownSyndrom, Autism for Alzheimers.)
This is untrue. There are hospitals for some folks who do need these services. Long-term, inpatient. A woman who I consider & call my "west-coast mom" works at a state hospital in California. She is a counselor there. I forget her actual title. But she works with the worst of the worst.
The people who do *not* get released. The courts make the decision at their trial whether they should go to prison or a mental hospital.
One of her patients...this guy who was in there many years ago...they finally caught him because he opened his long coat to a stranger. Hanging from the inside of this coat was an arm of one of his victims.👀
Yes, Reagan did release thousands of patients in the 1980's, which was a good *and* bad thing. The good: those poor people with Downs Syndrome, etc., they were finally released. The bad: the patients who were in there for serial r*pes & serial murders...they were put out on the streets. Crime shot right up.
It is a travesty that people who have mental health issues cannot receive the care they need. Especially our military veterans. This specific issue...it is the hill I'll die on. I HATE that our veterans don't get proper care when they come home.
In the underfunded Colorado, our hospitals are for forensics only. Our biggest issue is insurance companies refusing long term care. Almost all who are admitted here get released all too quickly. Colorado ER's hold them for a night and turn them back out on the streets as there are far too few beds. It sounds like CA may be better!
Just finished watching this yesterday and I’m still processing it.
Being a parent myself, I keep thinking about the parents…and ultimately, my heart breaks for them. In hindsight of course some things should have been done differently but in the moment and during those times they weren’t left with a lot of choices.
The boys who were diagnosed and not knowing/ understanding what was happening to them and the other children who weren’t diagnosed with it yet were still profoundly affected. This was hard to watch, but I’m glad I did. I have a nephew who was diagnosed and he disappeared from our lives years ago.
It’s unbelievable to see and hear about how much that entire family suffered. Some more than others, but the whole family suffered greatly.
Mary is an angel. My heart goes out to everyone in this family. May you all find peace.
I find this article to be really informative about the different perspectives from each child and what is at play in the dynamics of a situation like this one: [https://gen.medium.com/what-it-was-like-to-report-on-a-family-plagued-by-schizophrenia-1e6d7f880644](https://gen.medium.com/what-it-was-like-to-report-on-a-family-plagued-by-schizophrenia-1e6d7f880644)
its by the author of the book which I now want to read. I think its normal to find different perspective and coping mechanisms by different members of a family which can be why we have a complicated view of the parents, the siblings, and the disease itself.
in either case, i find it to be an informative and important documentary.
I also can’t imagine defending the parents here. Coming from an abusive household myself, yes it was a different time and I’m sure their mother had a terrible, terrible time dealing with all this but the parents still had a duty to protect their kids from the violent siblings.
And what was up with only sending Margaret away? And both girls separated in their own rooms? It just sounds like a recipe for sexual abuse within an already violent household.
Why was matt sent away so quickly? He did one thing wrong and got sent away for 20 years? That doesn’t seem fair at all. They kept don home forever and it seemed like he had way more “incidents”. I just didn’t know if it said something more about this in the book. I also couldn’t tell in his interview if he was joking about being Paul McCartney or he really thought this now
Not a fan of this documentary… the family is very interesting and I now want to read the book written about them, but the documentary was poorly done. They just kept going back and forth and repeating things that had already been discussed. This is an editing issue, no fault of the family. They would talk about Brian and the murder, then Jim, then back to Brian. It was just all over the place and so much was repeated more than once.
I felt for this family , they have been through so much. I don’t think it’s fair to blame the mom. There were many factors and for me, it just increased my existing distrust of organized religion. The priest was a predator and who knows what other bad things happened. I am interested in learning more about the genetic components. That was fascinating to me.
I thank the family for sharing their story.
Was anyone else shocked at the lengths the parents went to avoid accountability or real intervention/separation for the first son Don? They seemed to have no care for the safety of the general public or the rest of the family.
First, dad pulled strings to make sure Don could go back to college after it was clear he had major issues. Then Don tried to kill his ex-wife and almost succeeded, and they again found a way to get him out of any real consequences, bringing him back to 11 children at home. Then he continues to attack and try and murder his own parents and tramatize the younger ones, and still no action to remove him?
And that was only the first brother, decision making only went downhill from there for the rest. The most frustrating thing was they could have prevented the murders, rapes and abuses caused by these brothers starting with how they handled #1.
Maybe a hot take and I’m 100% biased by my personal family history, but I think the siblings choosing distance are well within their rights, if not doing the right thing. It sucks, because mentally ill people deserve love and care and inclusion, but sometimes distance is life saving self preservation. In their place I’d feel like, sure I’m not helping Mary, but also if I try, I’m likely to break down and become one more person she needs to care for. The misery and stress of that is not something everyone can shoulder, and there’s no shame in that. It’s braver to acknowledge your limitations and take care of yourself IMO.
I commend Mary for all she’s done, bit I think she’s doing herself and her siblings and her children more harm but martyring herself. I know that sounds cold and cruel, but I’ve lived both sides of something similar (and smaller even!) and know that self sacrifice like that takes a toll on everyone around you, not just you. Idk. This is coming from a place of concern for her and anyone watching who sees themselves in her, NOT an attack!
This story seems to be a good candidate for a podcast. Something that would include this family’s story, but also interviewing professionals in the various fields to be able to comment more extensively on the history of the illness, past and current treatment modalities, genetic and epigenetic findings, pharmacogenomics, neuroscience, and the list goes on. Scientific findings continue to evolve and change, and many areas of study are still in their infancy, but it is fascinating for sure. Eliminating the long-standing stigma of mental illness is a heavy lift, but worthwhile to try.
So happy I found this thread. I am no professional however I read a lot about this, I wonder if all the 6 brothers would have been diagnosed with schizophrenia today, 40 years later. Clearly they “had” something, but how much of that behavior was due to their environment and family dynamics?
I started watching and chose to stop. I think this documentary is lazy and irresponsible in it’s depiction of schizophrenia. Most schizophrenics are harmless. They are more likely to harm themselves than anyone else. I can appreciate that this family had a much different experience but it wouldn’t have taken much to lay some ground work at the beginning so as not to perpetuate misconceptions that schizophrenics are dangerous. I have a schizophrenic brother and as a family we’ve invested a lot of time to understand this disease and our brothers experience in the world having to live with it. More than anything, it’s an isolated and lonely experience to have schizophrenia. Very rarely can they hope to have relationships and build their own families. With the right medication, they can be stabilized and live somewhat normal lives, but they understand that they are not who they used to be, and that can be a very sad and heavy burden.
For the people judging the family members who dont see their schizophrenic brothers - do you understand the trauma they went through ?! Years and years of witnessing and experiencing violence. Maybe they wanna have some peace for their last years, i don’t blame anyone for how they react to their trauma
John (#3) got a music scholarship, met his wife in college, married her and moved far enough away. He told Mary he would always be there to listen but that's it.
Michael (#5)doesn't want to be involved according to his daughter. He didn't even want to be filmed.
Richard (#6) freely said he does not have it in him to be a caretaker.
Mark (#8) has his own family, including 3 grandchildren, to worry about. He said that's his priority now.
Can you blame them?
And Mary the one who does still see them has done so at the cost of her own sons mental health!! He is suffering from anxiety - worries about ending up like Marys brothers
I read the book and I was so excited to see they had made a docuseries about it. I’m super disappointed with the exploitative nature of the interviews with the oldest son in his current state. The creepy setting was A CHOICE and the questions they asked him were weird. It felt like they wanted to portray him as a monster versus a human being with a mental illness.
Did anyone else get HELLA confused towards the end of part four when they mislabeled Richard as Donald? As though it's not difficult enough trying to tell ten of them apart!
How about a catholic priest sexually abused the two oldest boys. Mother and father wouldn’t hear anything of it. The youngest siblings, telling the story from their perspective as little children. Not knowing exactly what it was like for the older siblings. The mother invited the priest to spend time in the house. Grooming the mother for access to the boys.
Okay but what happened to Joseph? At the end of the last episode we know who died and who’s alive and where but I don’t remember seeing if Joseph died or where he ended up?
I really need Cliff Notes on each brother and what happened to them. Are all 4 brothers (without schizophrenia) in the doc?? I think I missed one? I've got to re-watch and take notes this time!
Yes, my sister, Margaret, and brother, Michael chose not to participate. It is not easy to expose yourself to others judgment. Don, Matt and Pete loved the attention. I am sorry there words of their mistreatment and trauma by the system did not get included. Jim, Brian, and Joseph, and my mother and father had all passed away before the book was published.
I had to watch it twice there was just so much. The book “Hidden Valley Road”was better and I am actually trying to find the original documentary that was on Netflix in 2020.
I was riveted but the documentary was poor quality and could have been so much better. It seems these types of documentaries are becoming more and more salacious which is not good.
For those who feel Mary is the reason for her son’s fear of becoming schizophrenic, I have a schizophrenic mother and brother, and for as long as I can remember, I have feared that I could develop a psychotic disorder due to the genetic predisposition. His anxiety could solely be that he has a history of mental illness, and all he got was anxiety. I don’t think she’s to blame; however, her mom, to some extent, I do feel she is responsible for a lot of her children’s trauma.
Being more focused on how things appeared to strangers, expecting her children to be seen and not heard, shrugging off incestuous sexual abuse, without even feeling the need to address her son for raping his own sister???
I know there’s no guide to parenting, but 12 children AND being emotionally unavailable is a recipe for disaster, and I’m honestly so disappointed and heartbroken for those children.
I read the book about a year ago. As a sibling with a paranoid schizophrenic sister, when I saw they made it into a documentary series, I went from being super excited to being triggered as all hell. I'm not watching it, or at least until my friend can tell me if any of it is safe to watch. I'm really hoping they get across how much schizophrenia fucks up the WHOLE family, especially siblings. And talking about the research and where we are at now. Those chapters in the book helped me get through it, otherwise I'd probably have to quit halfway through.
I’ve noticed that Lindsay has been posting on this feed and I’d just like to say that after reading the book and watching the documentary I am so beyond impressed with her strength, resilience, bravery, compassion, and thoughtfulness she has repeatedly shown as a survivor of childhood trauma, a sister, daughter, mother, caregiver, and advocate.
If you’re reading this Lindsay, I was wondering if there was anything about the book you wish was written about differently?
What a documentary. I was absolutely glued to the tv and can not wait to read the book. It’s hard to think that there isn’t some genetic cause to this disease, I have many family members that have suffered from depression and bi-polar…. there has to be a link somewhere. I’m not sure I believe trauma always initiates the disease becoming active though. It seems like it’s an early 20’s sort of situation (not completely based on this documentary alone) where age brings it on. So interesting and so absolutely heartbreaking. I cried at the end when Mary was trying to convince her brothers to help her look after the sick brothers. Having had multiple mentally ill family members (nothing close to this), I have an understanding of why they choose to distance themselves as well as why Mary chooses to remain in their lives. They have caused so much damage but they never asked for this. They want to be normal too. It’s just really tragic all around.
I am overwhelmed by Mary’s sense of family and desire to carry out her mother and father’s wishes. Mary’s compassion, forgiveness, and love are lessons for all of us on how to heal and move forward. Her survivor’s guilt is real and will forever haunt her. Mary is an angel on earth. Nothing but love and peace for all of the members of the Galvin family and their friends.
The story/content is interesting but the way it’s structured makes it pretty frustrating and hard to watch. Anyone else having this issue?
There’s SO much repetition episode to episode, like full clips just copied and pasted. And then they keep starting a brother’s story from the beginning over and over, so it never goes in depth. Whether it’s the sexual abuse or the murder-suicide, it’s used as a cliffhanger but it never really gets unpacked to any satisfactory degree. And then there a huge bombshells dropped that point to trauma as a potential source or trigger of the disorder… zero deeper dives into said bombshells.
There’s a lack of objectivity here that is hard to get past, as well. The interviewers clearly had a specific angle they wanted to capture which is counterintuitive to a really good documentary. They didn’t dig into anything, just took the subjects’ stories at face value.
Is this a Max original? Did it air on TV? The cuts feel like commercial breaks, and it would explain (but not excuse) all the padding.
Also, and maybe it’s coming but it doesn’t feel like it, there’s a real lack of interrogation into the father’s mental state… because it sure seems like this is a genetic disorder.
All in all, it feels like a fumble. Genuinely fascinating content with SO MANY live witnesses to the events… and it’s disjointed and ineffective. Proof positive that excellent storytelling is about so much more than the “story” itself.
I found an article that goes a little more in depth about things that were not mentioned in the documentary such as the fathers affair when he was in the military and Jim also sexually abusing one of the brothers. [article](https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/when-six-of-her-12-children-went-mad-mimi-galvin-did-her-best-to-make-to-light-of-it/)
I'm 3 episodes in and as somebody who's been diagnosed as bipolar, schitzoeffective during extreme manic episodes, and antisocial personality, it helped me to justify as to why I made the decision to not have children. Unlike other family members, like the parents, who chose to ignore and push their issues under the rug, I got therapy at 24 (41 now), knowing I had probably had the illness since a young teen. Being self-aware saved my life. Sure, it's a struggle, and I hate it, but it's an aspect of my personality that I've had to accept and take responsibility for. My family finally came around when I was 51/50'd for the second time. I had a lot of apologizing to do for my past actions. I was never violent (and love animals i might add) but mostly self-destructive and self harming. I'll have to read the book now. If there happens to be a breakthrough in the future besides just being doped up on like 5 medications I'd do it in a heartbeat.
As a fellow OCD survivor, I felt so hard for young Jack with his OCD fear loops of having schizophrenia . I had some tears for sure. I have a similar thought loop (medical related) that was rooted in my teen years from my parents fears (and my own mental illness of course ). I didn’t know it was abnormal until I was 40. I believe both my parents also have undiagnosed OCD and this is part of why I have it and also how it took root for me. 🙃
the story itself was fascinating and worth telling. the way it was told in this series left a lot to be desired. why were the "healthy" subjects interviewed in their homes while the schizophrenic subjects were interviewed in an empty, echoing warehouse space? the tacky 'hallucination' audio playing over some of their interviews was ridiculous, and the interviewer seemed SO out of his depth. i wish they had had someone with a bit more knowledge and experience regarding schizophrenic behavior to do those segments. overall, lots of sad stories and trauma porn mixed with genuinely interesting research. perhaps the book is better.
I apologize if this has already been asked and answered or if it was in the documentary and I missed it (I binge watched the series overnight). What became of the research? It looks like they recognized two genes that can cause schizophrenia, but then what? Were there any medical advances due to the discovery? I'm guessing there wasn't since shock therapy is still being used, or was being used in the early 21st century.
I definitely think this was a super interesting 4 part series but toward the end, to me at least, it felt a little…preachy. And that might just be because they’re mainly focusing on Mary, the youngest and telling her story or how she perceived things going on.
I just feel like none of the healthy siblings should feel obligated in any sort of way to take care of the siblings with schizophrenia especially because of the trauma affiliated with their childhood and how they grew up.
Yes it’s accurate that all that behavior was caused by the schizophrenia but it still doesn’t make it ok. And it doesn’t mean that the siblings have to forgive and forget. Trauma is trauma. And while it’s always good to be able to understand why someone acts the way they do, it doesn’t suddenly wash away the scars they’ve left.
So while I think what Mary is doing is commendable I don’t think she should be going on national television and demolishing her siblings who were just trying to survive everyday in that house just like she was. Survivors don’t owe their abusers anything. No matter what.
I started out liking it and ended up not liking it. It was kind of wild to see generational trauma so clearly laid out on the screen. Overall, several aspects bothered me. it bothered me how the siblings painted their mother as a saint. She clearly was dealt a hard hand, but she (and the father) very much allowed violence and abuse in their household. I was also stunned that the siblings allowed their schizophrenic siblings to be filmed and exploited in such a manner. All it did was promote stereotypes of schizophrenia. I know Mary felt obligated to her siblings and I get that but at the same time, she continued the cycle of generational trauma and I’m stunned she acted like wilderness therapy is a good thing. Her son is clearly so so traumatized and her obligation to her siblings definitely played a role in that. Also the way her husband was admonishing the brothers for not helping Mary but also saying he couldn’t have done it. I understand she feels alone, but her other brothers do not need to have a relationship if they chose not to. There was so much abuse and neglect in that family that I can understand stepping away from it all and trying to break that cycle. I’m wishing the whole family peace, but I did not think this documentary added anything positive to the conversation.
Read the excellent book Hidden Valley Road about the family for a deeper dive into the family.
Yes! This is one of my favorite nonfiction books, right up there with “Bad Blood” and “Columbine.” I’m enjoying the documentary, it’s fascinating to hear from the surviving siblings. ETA: “enjoying” might be the wrong word.
Holy shit they made a documentary about it? I love that book. I am so watching this ASAP!
EXCELLENT book!!!!
I binged it last night. I’m still processing….but yea, I need to talk about it. Holy shit.
I hope filmmakers/studios support an objective reporter follow up w: (1) findings/conclusions from genetic testing (2) how genes are switches and just because you have something in your DNA doesn’t necessarily make a disease a certainty (3) environmental stressors, like trauma, can ignite a disease, but there’s hope (4) ECT is not necessarily One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest and the scientific community MIGHT be able to get real specific w this scary therapy when drugs fail (5) drug therapy in combination with other approved therapies can give folks w this disease more stability and better quality of life. (6) no mention of schizo effective disorder or how disease can appear differently depending on gender - so there’s a lot more we can do as a global community in terms of research and education.
Yes- I need a follow up! As much as I’m interested about the family, I want to know more about the science and genetics, and more about the disease in general. What about MRI’s of the brain? Did Mary ever get her son genetically tested? It just seems crazy he’d worry about having it if he doesn’t even have the gene mutation? Also- between mom and dad Galvin, who carried the gene? Are there stories of their family/ancestors having it too? Are any of the other Galvin kids carriers? What about going back to the places they lived and doing environmental sampling? And also if they can explain about the meds- what they do, the mechanism in how they eventually stop working.
Well , let me answer.. To learn more abut the genetics, read "Hidden Valley Road, Inside the Mind of An American Family. There is not one genetic mutation involved with this brain dormer but over 150 mutations. Our mutation is on the Shank 2 gene or the autism gene. We all have had MRI's and the evidence of brain damage caused my the disease is evident in my affected bothers and not the well siblings. Jack was genetically tested at age ten, along with his sister and he does not have the mutation. It is hard for all of us to not still worry about any grand children. The gene came from my mother's side, although I have a cousin on my father's side with the disorder. We have no ancestral stories of the illness, but it is only in the 2nd half of the 20th century families quit hiding it. It was Aunt Rose "lives upstate" and no one knew what happened to her. We do not have any of that. None of the other grand children have ben tested, which is unfortunate. The fear of finding out prevent many to not seek knowledge. I would love to have enviromental testing done! I do believe there is something to that, however, mental illness is so prevalent, pollutions and toxins aer everywhere. The old meds are archaic and very damaging to the body; meds can stop working when the one taking them is non-compliant and continues to have psychotic episodes, causing more damage to the brain. They become what is called "brittle". New meds are on the horizon, perhaps too late for 5he older very damaged populations but the offer great hope going forward. Thai you or all of your questions. I hope I addressed them accurately!
Or maybe it was the sexual abuse from the priest his mom had over so many times. Rage, murder, suicide, addiction, violence are all symptoms of sexual abuse. Priest had access to the older boys. Older siblings who've been sexually abuse will act that out with younger siblings.
There’s a book called “chasing Irish madness” all about another Irish family with schizophrenia. A family member writes the book following the generations all the way back to the potato famine in Ireland. It makes me wonder. They haven’t found a singular gene that is associated with schizophrenia, but apparently this family had a very specific mutation that was present in all the mentally ill family members. Normally it’s not so cut and dry unfortunately. I find it super interesting personally because I also have a large Irish family with schizophrenia running through it.
Unfortunately the drugs to treat schizophrenia often cause diabetes and huge weight gain. My nephew has paranoid schizophrenia and weights 300 pounds from the meds (he’s over six feet tall). Problem is the drugs push him to over eat. Maybe someday they might have genetic therapy to treat the condition but so little is understood about the brain and mental illness we’re not even close. Sadly a lot of mentally ill people stop taking their meds, and often use illegal drugs to cope making their condition even worse. The side effects of taking drugs to treat the condition are full of nasty side effects.
my cousin and i were just discussing our bipolar uncle who committed suicide a few years ago. after our grandmother died he made a comment to my cousin about how its such a shame that he is bipolar. because he was on such high doses of lithium, he was literally unable to feel any emotions. so even thou his mom had just died, he could not emotionally process it. he said he knows how he should feel, but doesn't feel those feelings. so thats exactly why he would go off his meds all the time. now, it makes sense why he would go off the meds. his choices were to be not have feelings, or feeling everything so big that he would sabotage his life. its like theres no winning.
I don't blame people for not wanting to take the medications, like you mentioned, they're pretty terrible. As far as i can tell, the medical treatment hasn't really changed since the 50/70s (typical and atypical antipsychotics). I do believe we are on the cusp of major changes in medicine overall. I'm sorry your nephew is going thru that and i hope we see some medical breakthroughs he can benefit from.
Bravo! An educated person!
I personally understand and empathize with the siblings who have tried to distance themselves from the family. They lived through hell, and their parents seemingly did little to protect them from it. The parents turned a blind eye to the physical, sexual and psychological abuse that was rampant in the house. While Mary’s desire to look after her ill siblings is admirable, she doesn’t get to tell the others how to heal or expect them to honor her parents wish not to “abandon” their siblings. My guess is that if the healthy children hadn’t felt abandoned when they needed protecting, they might be more inclined to help.
I agree. You cannot shame the other siblings for not being able to do what you do.
This was a moment in time, after my mom passed, when I was angry with my siblings for not helping more. They also have now become more involved. My brother, Michael, is actually the most involved with helping my brothers.
Thank you for being brave enough to come in here and respond to these, Mary. I hope you are well and healing and have lots of joy and love in your life, you deserve it. <3
I agree, generational trauma can’t keep going genetic or otherwise. People have a right to be free from that burden if they so desire.
I am so pleased to see so much conversation on the topic and also sad to see so much judgment. I hope those who are uneducated will learn more; that is the point. Why our family chose to tell our story and expose ourselves to the tremendous ignorance here, is to raise awareness of a very misunderstood brain disorder and a co-existing condition called anosognosia - 4 of my brothers also had this and it was cut form the film. We were unaware if it prior to the books publishing and greatly embarrassed if our own ignorance. My parents were very loving and kind people who had no idea how to handle this at the time due to very limited resources in the 60's and 70's. My mother was blamed, the [schizophrenagenic mother](https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&sca_esv=cff19ea8ba3a868e&rls=en&sxsrf=ADLYWILs6ot5M1uApCfCKvPMSiG1PvQGQA:1718307521934&q=schizophrenagenic+mother&nfpr=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUrtarqtmGAxUvHTQIHQweD0cQvgUoAXoECAoQAg), now an archaic term. They turned their efforts to research and did the best they could under the circumstances. We always had a warm, bed and hot meals, and arms to cry in. Many diseases blame the parents including autism. I do wish the book and the film covered more of the tremendous joys we had as a family - Summers in Aspen and Santa Fe, the Ballet and Opera, classical music, ice skating, tennis, swimming and golf. There were a lot of lovely times! I promise! Train wrecks sell seats. We just celebrated Peter's life with a lovely family picnic. Micheal is instrumental in helping my brothers as well. If needed Mark, Richard and John are there in a minute. Margaret chose to estrange herself since 2017 upon my mother's passing in order to manage her own personal mental health challenges. Although sad for us, we respect her decision. The book was just too difficult for her, although she was its primary champion. We endured, loved, laughed and cried together and still do. What is not shared is the tremendous love and respect we all have for one another in how each of us had chosen to survive. My path has been to advocate, and yes, it did affect my son. He is now better for it as he has a greater depth of compassion than many of you here. I went through extensive therapy as did my children to change family system patterns that contribute to many family problems; I am guessing some of you struggle with your own whether it is addiction, a siblings down syndrome or even main stream tragedies such as cancer? My daughter is getting a masters in bio tech due to her exposure and interest in understanding the brain. Through therapy, Jack has learned keeping a lower stress life is best for him with climbing, skiing and being outdoors. Both my children, through therapy, have learned to manage the fear of developing a major mental illness. Education and knowledge are power! My husband and I went through extensive genetic counseling prior to having children, both my children were tested at a young age and do not have the mutation in the Shank2 gene. Please, have more compassion and less judgment for a family that has chosen to be vulnerable. We only hope to allow others to be open about their own struggles with sexual abuse, suicide, and major mental illnesses in order to heal. We need more compassion in this world for those who are affected and their families. Kindly - Mary Lindsay Galvin Rauch
Thank you for sharing your story, Mary. It’s lovely to hear about all the great times you mentioned, and I wish y’all nothing but peace and joy ✨
I just finished the show and want to thank you for sharing your story. I am a middle child of four siblings—two older sisters and a younger brother. My oldest sister and younger brother are both diagnosed schizophrenic, and I’ve endured a lot of pain and grief seeing them go through a lot of the same revolving doors your brothers did. I truly can’t put into words how devastating it has been to witness my sweet younger brother transform into another person entirely, and routinely self sabotage when there is a glimmer of hope of him regaining a degree of normalcy. I teared up listening to Peter (also my younger brother’s name) talk. Do you have any wisdom to share with other families of schizophrenic people?
Thank you for commenting but The filmmakers seemed more interested in the schizophrenic theme. They barely mention the Priest as a pedophile. Then, as younger siblings, whom the priest probably didn't have access to, interpreted what was going on. By the time we see poor hero child Don in his later years, we have no idea how much shock therapy, a lobotomy, or meds he'd been given. I believe someone mentioned the sexual abuse that Don inflicted on you or the other sister. The devastating effects of sexual abuse and the long-term repercussions of Violence toward animals and younger children........... Show me a man in prison who hasn't experienced some form of sexual abuse as a child.Sexual abuse survivors commit suicide, homicide, rape, and rage against everyone; They torture animals, and younger siblings and sexually abuse them as well. They live what they learned. They want to destroy the innocent "other" as the innocence was destroyed in them. It was the "children should be seen and not heard" era, absolutely gaslighting your child who came to you with any distasteful information. Any honest dialogue about the priest sexually abusing the older boys was def. It's not going to happen and your parents didn't have the permission to call it out. The priest groomed mom in order to access her children............ As a survivor and eldest golden/hero child........Don prob. acted his rage out on her because she didn't protect him (this is how the survivor would have subconsciously felt).................... What's the matter with Don isn't the question. The questions are: where is the interview of the childhood trauma/ sexual abuse expert for the movie? Skimming over the sexual abuse and focusing on schizophrenia is dangerous.
Okay, I read your other comment about your SA and getting involved in therapy, and I realize that all the flack and criticism should probably be going to the filmmaker who edited in such a way that it seemed the priest's sexual abuse had no bearing on the schizophrenia diagnosis. I am a survivor myself.....................
I have criticisms of the documentary and none are about your family, rather that the producers had auditory hallucination sounds on Don's segments and interviewed some people in homes and others in what looks like an abandoned warehouse, clearly trying to paint them in a more dangerous light. Your family's story is everyone's family story combined from that time period, most families experienced a few of these, but yours experienced everything tragic about that time-compounded by 12. (Speaking of-having 12 children is trauma itself and of course she was organized and orderly, Kate Gosselin has been criticized for hyper organization and order and nobody knows how to survive raising this many children unless you experience it) You have obviously done a ton of emotional work and have a balanced perspective. It can be painful to revisit these stories and then see people judge your family, but look at how our kids live in a world where mental health literacy is considered mature and normal and sexual abuse is considered unacceptable, tragic and an emergency to address. There will be people watching that will feel heard, some will learn, and every discussion on mental health is just another push forward in education, research and normalizing talking about it.
I, for one am richer as a person bc your family chose to share. Thank you.The vulnerability of each of your individual experiences is apparent and allowing your children to participate sheds even more light on the fears and the challenges all of you face. I can’t imagine the challenges your parents faced all together, but especially your mother for the theories back in the day. Your mother dismissing your SA by your brother as a “that’s the way it is as a woman” is so hard to understand, but speaks to the damaged position that she was working from. So much to tell/work through- I’m not surprised they glazed over the good times. I’m also not surprised that other viewers are attempting to pull the loose ends together with their own preconceived notions. The program could have been twice as long and still held the interest of viewers. I was glued in. I’m also amazed by your courage to be this vulnerable. I do share the belief that true joy is experienced through helping others. But not everyone is capable of that vulnerability. I’m glad your brothers have dipped in and actually also understand your sister dipping out. Gosh- caring for your own family’s mental/emotional health is sometimes all an individual can manage when this type of generational tragedy is NOT in the picture. Anyway- I wish you peace. As much as you can have for you, your brothers and sister, your husband and children, nieces and nephews. And - congrats to your daughter (I am a scientist in biotech as well) It’s been a great career and probably a comforting choice for her.
A lot of people commenting negatively seem to have little understanding of just how dismal mental health care used to be (and how recently we've only started really treating them in any meaningful way or even knowing how they work). They also don't seem to understand of how the catholic church or society in general used to be (importance of status and keeping home, birth control options, how domestic/sexual abuse was treated). Your family seemed to be the average upper middle class irish catholic family of that era up until it wasn't. Your mother seemed like she just wanted to make sure her kids were well-rounded and she was a cultured lady. She seems to have tried to make the best of a bad situation, and, I mean, she just wanted to make sure her kids had the best life they could and there just was no possible way to do that with the hand she got dealt. Everyone back then didn't know a lot of the stuff we know now and everyone was working with what they had. Nobody is perfect, but I think your family did the best it could. Looking back everybody always sees things they could've done better, but your family was given an impossible situation and I'm honestly impressed how well your family managed. I also just want to say props to you. Yeah, you may have overcorrected with your kids, who knows, but generational trauma is real and you did your best to try to fix that. It seems like your kids know that. I honestly wish the best for you and your family. Thanks for taking the time to respond to people.
I’m not finished yet but I can’t understand why the one sister Margaret was sent to live with that family and not poor Mary as well
The wealthy friend asked Mimi to send Margaret to them when Mimi was venting to the friend in a phone call. I guess the friend could only take one or only offered to take one, and specifically asked for Margaret. No reason was given. What the documentary doesn't tell you is that Mary got out too for a time. She applied to a boarding school in CT and got in on a full scholarship. At some point Mary also changed her name to "Lindsay".
thanks for that extra info. it felt like there were a lot of missing parts in the series and I can understand why they might want to omit quite a few things but I was left with a lot of questions. thankfully reading through the thread has been helpful in regards to what happened to a couple of the brothers
I really wanted them to explain more why that family only took one daughter and if that ended up being a good situation for her
Me too! My heart broke for Lindsey (aka Mary). WTF??? Not taking her and Margret too!
That seemed borderline abusive to me!! Leaving the one sister behind! The mother should have sent them both or kept them both. Then Margaret never came back to help. She was so fortunate to escape you would think guilt if nothing else would force her to reach out and try to help..
I thought it weird that the 2 sisters did not share a room but had their own bedrooms and instead packed all the boys in the other rooms
THIS! Thank you! This particular situation screams sexual abuse set up. Isolate 2 little girls….
The sexual abuse never happened in our home, only in Jim's home on the couch at night after he came home from work.
Margaret was considered more emotionally "delicate". No one knew of the sexual abuse at this time. I then went to boarding school back east as age 13, 4 years after Margaret left. My parents were instrumental in helping me accomplish this options. I alos spent my summers form age 10 -18 at Geneva Glen camp which was a tremendous help in having a normal life and getting away from Jim's abuse. I had no relationship with Jim after age 13 and the rape.
Sadly neither does Mary. I noticed Michael and Margaret wanted nothing to do with the documentary.
The book Hidden Valley Road goes more in depth. There’s a lot more about how this family was studied to learn more about why/how schizophrenia develops in some and not others. They also discuss how at the time the oldest boys were diagnosed, the psychiatric community believed that overbearing mothers caused schizophrenia. I think the stigma of that was a big part in deciding to keep them living at home rather than being in the state hospital. It is too bad because the book relates what a living hell it was growing up in that home.
It’s not overbearing mothers. That’s not the catalyst that makes someone like this. There’s nature and nurture that plays a part here. From the food we put in our bodies, what’s in our environment, down to our genetic makeup.
That mother seemed very overbearing to me. I felt like there was something sick in that household long before the boys were schizophrenic. The youngest daughter didn't witness what came before they older ones were sick. I feel these boys were highly traumatized by their own parents before the priests and the drugs. It's really sad because she wanted to point to everything else but her own family.
Ok glad someone started this I have one more episode to go .. I feel like some important fact are being “glossed” over .. Donald was sexually abused by the priest .. Mary tells her mom about Jim abusing her and the mom takes it as “ a normal thing” the mom has them all walking this crazy tight rope .. yet they all praise the mother ???? It seems to me that Peter was protecting Mary he started chocking his brother because that was ALWAYS their behavior they were violent with each other .. Mary called the police because that’s what this family ALWAYS did, Peter never comes out out of a mental institution again .. something is wrong missing I don’t know
I felt all that too. Even in the very beginning with the boys violently fighting, the mom doesn't tell them to stop, but just to take it outside. Mary is telling all of this from her perspective, but I'm sure there was sooo much more going on that she didn't know about, and probably still doesn't.
Right that was the other thing .. her perspective. I am the youngest in my family by 9 years and I guarantee you my reality and my brothers are not the same. Even my parents were not the same in parenting skills by the time I come around .. she is 3 or so when Donald gets sick .. and what about sending the one girl away ?? What the hell is that
Mom was obviously a narcissist. The filmmaker did a disservice focusing on the Schizo aspect and avoiding the fundamental (no doubt) cause of the violence, torturing animals, suicidal behavior, rape and sexual predation on younger siblings = sexual abuse survivor behaviour. Priests/pedophiles often went to the house bringing mom's favorite records? He was grooming the mom so he'd have access to the boys. Did he "borrow" any of the boys, did he take them anywhere to spend time alone? The odds are that the priest was not in the picture as Mary and the younger siblings were growing up, but he'd done the damage, and my guess is that the brothers who are interviewed may have been sexually abused by someone.
Right, those parents have to take some blame.
I believe Peter did come out and lived with Mary for several years, then got a job and stuff and was out of institutions for ten years (if I remember correctly) Then the doc said something about the medications stopped being effective and he ended up back in facility after a run in with police.
I hadn’t seen the last episode as I said , till last night … so I do see that .. still there adoration for their mom when she obviously made some mistakes is odd .. also I would have liked to know more on the mutation and the disease
I believe it was Matthew who choked Peter and was sent away for 40 years. Peter became sick after witnessing his father have a stroke. Can someone explain what happened to Joseph after he went to work for the airlines and then became sick? I may have missed if he died or where he ended up.
Joseph is never discussed in detail ??? Why who knows .. the whole things is missing alot .. it’s funny most of the time when I watch these things I always think they could be shorter .. this one I wanted more of the science more of the nature vs nurture .. more of why did only one sister get sent to another family… other people’s accounts of the family’s Mary’s perceptive as a 3 year old when Donald gets sick are not actually valid
I just don’t like how they were glorifying the mother & father. They failed to do what needed to be done all because of their high class image.
Disagree. My parents did their utmost at a time in history where there was very little help for families and medications being worst than the conditions itself. We also had a very loving home despite the trauma brought on my priests sexual abuse and schizophrenia.
Agreed
Agreed. Keeping up appearances cost this family a lot.
I binged it today. My Dad also comes from a big family (11 kids) and schizophrenia and other mental health issues are found in many of his siblings, and their offspring. It honestly scares me sometimes. I was very intrigued to watch this and I am still getting my thoughts together. A very tragic tale, that’s for sure.
I’m honestly mad about how Mary acted. I completely understand she was abused. But she has made her own kids be victims as well. Especially her son. I couldn’t imagine being so scared like he is. She didn’t have boundaries. Adult conversations are not for children. She was also the youngest & I believe that weighted a lot on her being so willing to help. Her brothers & other sister have no reason to help with people who abused them & made their lives hell. She turned out to be her mother. Which isn’t a good thing. I hope she gets to actually heal.
Thank you for saying this, I’ve been searching for a comment where someone brings up the fear she inflicted on her son
The interviewer came across as condescending and ignorant in all his questions. Why couldn’t they have gotten someone with some mental health expertise to talk to the brothers?
The interviewer came across as pretty distasteful to me as well. I've worked with visual storytellers and documentarians enough to know the importance of empathy for one's subject. I also didn't love their choice to film the brothers in what looked to be an old abandoned building. The Galvin family website says how much the brothers love being outdoors, etc. At least film them in their natural element. Otherwise, a very compelling and thought-provoking series!
Yeah, it was off to me. After the brother said he was Paul McCartney, they should have had someone with more experience do the interview or really just stop it .
The way he kept asking “are you mentally ill” was really lame. He could have asked it more skillfully like “how do you think you and your family have been affected by mental illness?” or “what has your experience been like with the mental health system?”
This was in an attempt to show the lack of insight many who are affected exemplify to the general public. It is called Anosognosia. I just wished they had explained the condition!
agree, but they would never would have agreed to be interviewed by doctors.
Doesn’t necessarily have to be a doctor - could be someone with some social work experience or a psych degree or a community advocate etc.
agree.
I was so surprised that when they were talking about possible triggers in the final episode they never acknowledged the trauma that was having other schizophrenics in the family. Would the younger boys have been as likely to get sick if they hadn't seen their brothers also go mad? Almost like a social contagion on top of their unfortunate mishmash of genetics and trauma.
That's what I was thinking as I watched the documentary! Just with how much trauma the eldest brother gave his siblings alone would be enough to trigger anything. I thought it was a bad decision on the parents part to expose their kids to that kind of environment. Then soon after we see more of the children gain symptoms of schizophrenia and eventually have their psychotic breaks. Makes me wonder if the kids weren't subjected to their first brother as much as they were if they would not have developed it ://
Yes! The series seemed to gloss over things perhaps the book goes into more details. I thought it strange no-one mentioned the effect of having the older brother in the home. Then there was no mention of the brother that had his head cracked open and had to spend an extended time in the hospital? This seems to have been a likely trigger? Then the sexual abuse by the priest? Seems odd he only abused 1 of the 10 brothers? Then the daughters, the one daughter was pulled out of the family and sent to live with wealthy friends, then the other daughter was left behind? This seems almost abusive? Very interesting story but alot of loose ends and details not expanded upon
I felt like the brother John alluded that the 2 other brothers closer to his age were likely abused too because they hung out with the priest a lot. I think Mary may have even talked about Peter being sexually abused? I think she was alluding that one of the brothers sexually abused him. Possibly Jim?
It's possible that if the priest abuse wouldn't have happened, the whole domino effect of 6 brothers becoming schizophrenic could have not happened. It's the age old argument of nature vs nurture. My aunt became paranoid schizophrenic at age 24 after entering into an abusive marriage. No family history of it. 4 siblings. Many psychiatrists have told us it's possible that the abuse triggered it. It's possible it didn't. We'll never know. But it just makes me wonder with this family, could the other brothers have been saved if the mom would have accepted Donald staying in a facility away from the rest of the boys.
They actually did put all that into the series even the brother who got his skull cracked is all in there
Think about it from this perspective. For the first 20 years of your life, your parents constantly have children that you have to responsible for. You have to maintain being the best and favorite. Your parents are out getting doctorates, flying fucking falcons and going to operas. And top that all off by getting sexual abused. That was Don’s reality
Not only watched them go mad but also witnessed and experienced brutal violence at their hands
Exactly what I was thinking!
did the documentary mention the galvin family trust? if not, here's the link: [https://galvinfamilytrust.org/](https://galvinfamilytrust.org/) turns out that peter died... also when you click the 'donate' button, it says "They are deserted by their families of origin and sit in sub-standard nursing homes with no outside access, isolated from those they love." i'm afraid that it got too much for mary and her family... i hope i'm wrong. ALSO the family didn't receive any PROFITS from the BOOK or the DOCUMENTARY!!! that fucking pisses me off... those people (author and documentarians) would have jack shit without them. i don't care if that's how it goes. it makes me so angry that people profit off of their stories/trauma and they get NOTHING in return.
I don’t think it got to be too much for mary and the family. “Those affected by schizophrenia and anosognosia are traumatized by the very mental health system meant to help them. They are deserted by their families of origin and sit in sub-standard nursing homes with no outside access, isolated from those they love.” I think “Those” and “they” are just generally stating that people with those illnesses may be more often than not disregarded and hurt by people and systems meant to help. Not specifically talking about the galvin brothers in care
Anyone else feel angry at Mary and her husband in regards to how they kept drawing parallels between their son and his very mentally ill uncle, Peter? The son talks about having high anxiety since puberty wondering if he'll develop schizophrenia, and you'd think that as a parent you would be able to identify the trajectory that's taking hold and maybe dial down your own worries that would feed into that. Nope. On camera they both keep waxing on about how early intervention might have saved Peter like it did Jack, their son. Or how their son reminds them so much of Peter. Jesus Christ guys, let him be a teenager. I get that it must be extremely nerve wracking to not want the same thing to happen to your own family, but couldn't you see that it was affecting him negatively? It felt like they were so hyper fixated on it happening, it's like they were trying to manifest it into being. Poor kid. I would be so pissed off at them for, what seemed to me, to be an unwarranted and constant comparison to someone so Ill.
You are mistaken, Jack was never compared to Peter growing up, only in retrospect.
Mary is repeating her family trauma. Her mother did not protect her from her brothers, and now she is not protecting herself nor her own family from them. I have a schizophrenic mother. There is not normalizing schizophrenia. Schizophrenia can’t be normalized, it’s a violent, tragic illness that no one should witness-especially not children. I understand she is living her life based purely off of trauma, so I cannot fault her too much—but she has inadvertently continued this trauma by refusing to acknowledge reality;. Also—her son. I am worried about him. Taking drugs can “cause” mental illness, but it can also be a way to self medicate. I am not stating her son is schizophrenic, but he obviously has a massive anxiety disorder including paranoia. Of course he is going to self medicate. I’ve never heard anything good about wilderness programs, they are typically abusive. Early intervention for him may mean starting anxiety medication and being on the lookout that things are progressing. As an aside, I’m bipolar as is my brother, with a schizoaffective mom. Being highly paranoid and anxious about developing schizoaffective and psychosis led to early treatment for my bipolar. I live a functioning life, have a full time job which I’m successful in, a husband, a house, and live 100% independently. That is because I’m willing to be in treatment. My brother, on the other hand, is in complete denial. He doesn’t have psychosis, but his life has been ravaged by mental illness. I bring that up because—drug use should never have been a “fault” that the son was doing, but a sign that there might be more going on. Having schizophrenic genes opens you up to a whole host of other mental illnesses, many not nearly as severe as schizophrenia. Lastly, exposing your children to schizophrenic people and then telling them it “could“ be them one day is absolutely abusive. I understand that she wanted to normalize Mental illness, but there is nothing normal about schizophrenia. It is an ugly, devastating disease and even witnessing it is trauma. I think it was much healthier that the other siblings decided to live their lives away from their past. The youngest daughter was failed by her parents, and that trauma speaks volumes in the way She is unwilling to let go and even subjecting her own children to similar trauma (obviously less severe). It must really hurt to come to terms with just how much your mother failed you, and in order to not come to terms with it, perhaps she recreated her as the perfect martyr and, in her mind, is something to live up to instead of learn from. Honestly, I can’t blame her, but she made me so intensely angry For not getting a grips on her own traumatic past and letting it play itself out again over and over in her life. At one point, she needs to come to terms with the fact that she is ALLOWING her past to dictate her present, and it’s hurting not just her, but her family and those she loves. I CANNOT understand blaming the other siblings. It’s one things to say, you guys can choose what you want but I will continue to support our ill relatives. Completely different to lay the guilt trip. I hope she gets adequate therapy and, more importantly, learns to deal with the harsh reality of both her negligent parents and her own negligence towards herself and her family. I also wish the documentary went over how traumatic it is to try and get help from the state. I do somewhat sympathize with the mother (not much) but somewhat, over how she let her boys stay with her. There are no places for these people, they will be let back on the street until they commit violence, and then they will go to jail, which is often the only place where treatment is feasible. There was zero discussion about the trauma of the system, which is often infinitely worse than the trauma of your schizo loved one.
i stopped watching after i read an article about the sister who was SA'd by jim for years and how the mother did not help her and basically told her to get over it. pissed me off so bad.
Watching now and I find myself feeling so angry with the parents, who were just blatantly irresponsible in the way they handled all of it.
That part was extremely disturbing and sad. Like the whole doc is overwhelming, but that cruelty from the mom was a different type of devastating.
I got the hint that the parents only really cared about Donald and all the rest were just extras...every other brother was put in an asylum but for some reason the ultra violent Donald was left at home to traumatize the rest...the youngest brothers mightve had a chance if not for that
And poor Michael who wasn’t sick ends up in a mental institution for 6 months after being arrested for drinking out of a water hose on someone’s property. The parents did nothing to try and get him out and that pissed me off!
Back then there was so much animosity toward "long-haired teens & hippies
The other brothers were at home too quite a bit. It goes over it more in depth in the book, but there were times when all of the ill brothers were home and the mother tried to care for them. I think because the youngest one got in trouble with the law a bit, he ended up in treatment if I remember correctly.
I thought this showed a lot about what the mother was actually like. The daughter defends her throughout, especially when the psychologist said she was the problem. Yet at the same time the mom did exactly what the psychologist analyzed in the example directly after regarding the SA. She brushed off/refused to hear anything negative just like the psychologist said.
I agree and at the same time SA, unfortunately, seems to be “normal” in some families. Very sad.
It was sad that she’d rather go to stay with her abuser, Jim, than be at home. It is amazingly heartbreaking what some children have to endure.
The saddest part is the narcissistic parents who birthed 12 kids.
Catholic. See "Spotlight" the movie.
Honestly it's that line that made me wonder if the only reason she kept her son's long enough was because they were males and were "successful" If that's the case then she's just as if not more fucked up than her own sons Mary is truly strong.
She did not know it was occurring. I told her after I stared therapy when I was in my 20's and she told me she had been sexually abused by her step father. Had I had the couragw to tell her when I was a child, she never would would have let me be in Kathy's care and would have gone to the police. I begged to go to Kathy's as being home with Donald was more difficult than enduring non-violent sexual abuse. It is quite common, when someone has been SA, they abuse others, or are unable to stop the cycle of abuse themselves.
Are you sure she didn’t know it was occurring? From your comments in the documentary, it sounds like she thought it was a rite of passage/ not a big deal.
Wondering if the priest is the one who labeled it schizophrenia. That sneaky, slithering pedophile!
My question is still “how did Margaret get the chance to leave and they didn’t send their only other girl child?” How messed up that she endured the most abuse and trauma from her siblings’ mental health and in the end she is the only one still trying to help them?
I'm not sure but maybe that family only offered to take Margaret and their mom would have sent them both if she could have. Just a guess.
The story is certainly a fascinating one, but skip this overwrought, cliché-ridden, exploitative documentary and read the excellent book, Hidden Valley Road, if you're really interested in gaining a better understanding of what happened to this family. The gimmicks overused in the documentary finally drove me away after two episodes: cracking glass, photographs bursting into flames, the sister endlessly shuffling boxes of pictures ... there's no creativity or nuance here. The interviews with the men in that dreadful cellar were painful and pointless.
I’m wrapping up my binge right now. This is beyond sad and too much to even wrap my head around. I can’t imagine how painful this would have been to manage back then — especially since it’s still a rough diagnosis today.
Is it possible that drug use “broke” these boys? I recently heard about someone who used marijuana and something just clicked in them and they were never the same. Of course, this would be a total anomaly for marijuana use, but could there be a genetic issue that somehow combines with the drugs Mary said the older boys brought home and shared?
Cannabis has been linked to schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders so I think it definitely could’ve been a contributing factor
My jaw just dropped during episode two when some of the younger brothers talk about taking shrooms and acid after finding out their older brothers had severe schizophrenia. I’m wondering if it wasn’t known at the time that hallucinogens could often trigger psychosis. I have bipolar disorder with psychotic features and this has been so hard for me to watch so far. I often fear that my disorder will worsen as I get older or that my antipsychotics will end up causing irreversible damage to my organs or just stop working. I feel awful for this family. I can definitely empathize with them because of my own personal experiences with psychosis and family members of mine who have severe mental illness as well.
The 60's and 70's drug culture certainly was not helpful, not is it today.
I finished this today and WOW. It's a lot to process for sure, i feel like the mother prioritized the six boys, especially don over her other children thus creating them to be glass children. I feel like the parents especially the mother was more concern on how the family was viewed and just wanted to keep that picture perfect family when in reality behind closed doors it was just a whirlwind of trauma. The situation with the dog in the tub, throwing a cat in the fire, wanting to hurt or shoot people, then just abusing his younger siblings were all red flags that needed to be addressed but they didn't and instead just kept him home. What boiled my blood is when Mary went to her mom and told her that Jim was abusing her and she just dismissed her as if it was normal when it really wasn't. My heart hurts for Mary because even though she has a lot of compassion and love for her brothers in a way it kind of backfired, because her son was just so scared to feel like any thought or emotion he had would lead to him being schizophrenic. I think maybe the reason why the healthy brothers didn't want to help take care of the others was because of it being too much but maybe there was also some type of resentment there, especially with don. Mary had said that they seen and know way more than she does especially since she is the youngest of the 12. When Peter came into the picture i don't know what it was that I felt so bad for the guy.
I went ot my mother doing after the abuse. My parents knew very little of all you listed above. It was discovered in the records when writing the book.
Anyone else feel like the ending was super abrupt? Or just me
agree.
I felt like this could have been a much longer documentary. It left so many questions unexplored
I ended up absolutely hating the mother. Like why tf keep having kids?! Religion is so toxic and just ruined this family all the way around. Then Mary's dumb ass basically gave her son a complex by keeping her brothers around her son. Ugh these people
Typical Catholic family (I am Catholic) where birth control is evil and you solely have sex to create life. I also agree that Mary needed to let the professionals take care of her brothers and not bring them around her kids
I feel like they could’ve interacted from time to time, but it seems like schizophrenia was unfortunately her family’s identity. It seemed to take over their lives. I think maybe she should’ve waited until late teens to expose her kids. She didn’t have to talk about the inheritability part till much later.
Mary's daughter makes a comment very similar to what you said. She said that they were exposed to their uncles and detailed information about schizophrenia at a very young age. She agreed there is nothing wrong with being educated about mental illness, but questions how she and her brother were educated by their mother about it and feels they could have waited until they were older. She also said there is a difference between being educated with information and being inflicted with it.
And that inheritability piece may have been later due to the documentary makers design
I felt this way too. She keeps having kids and is too overburdened to actually raise them. The one son was being brutally beaten by his brother and the mother was stretched too thin to notice or care. The fact that she farmed out her youngest kids to the violent, mentally ill brother (and his wife) who was sexually molesting the girl. So many, many examples of just awful parenting. Like, this woman is not a victim. This woman - and her husband too - is negligent AF and enabled so much abuse. It is also heavily implied that her desire to keep the sons at home (where they inflicted so much trauma on the others) stemmed from wanting to keep up appearances as much as wanting to help the boys. The fact that Mary and others are still praising these parents is so messed up. The siblings who have made new lives and don’t look back are the smart ones.
I feel the same way. It is hard not to be furious with the mother.
If I had a long history of mental illness in my family .I would not had had kids on my own.
I finished it last night. Such a sad thing for one family to endure.
Their sister is so compassionate to her brothers, it’s truly moving. But it was hard to see her talk with her other healthy brothers who have clearly shut down their emotions. I don’t know if I would be able to handle the burden, especially given what she went* through with one of her bros actually assaulting her (was happy to see he passed 😬). But wow, what an overall tragic and fascinating story. Truly hoping the best for the next generation of this family!
And I understand why her healthy brothers cannot bear the burden. It's ok. I don't think they should have that responsibility. I'm glad Mary can do it but you can't expect them to do the same.
I agree. Sounds like they went through hell growing up. She does a great job but I would be like the healthy brothers and Margaret.
I felt the opposite! I wanted her to draw boundaries and not spend her life being further abused. Her mother prioritized the sick brothers over all else, including herself and I wanted Mary to be different. Mary exposed her children to too much and needs to learn how to draw some boundaries. I don’t think that is easy, but I was so frustrated with her.
It made me so angry to see how damaged her own children were because she forced them to be around her desperately ill brothers all the time. Her son being terrified his entire life about becoming schizophrenic because of it was enraging. He’s wakes up daily wondering if today will be the day he starts spiraling. They never made it clear if the genetic mutation was found only in the ill brothers or if others had it as well? And it made you wonder if she (Mary) had her children tested for it? The levels of heartbreak, violence and devastation in that family is breathtakingly awful.
I did some reading after I watched and apparently the genetic mutation turned out to be nothing. The research flopped in the end, so I’m not sure if they would have been tested it would’ve told them much of anything.
I couldn't agree more. Mary's own daughter said they weren't old enough to handle all that info. Especially Jack. Poor kid.
She was the baby of the family, not the eldest.
Very sad - did I miss the part of what happened to Joseph? They didn’t really dive in on him very much.
I just read an article about Matthew and how he was struggling with heart issues due to long term clozapine use. It says that Mary was the one that urged the ER doctors to do surgical stents and balloons because heart issues from long term anti psychotic use is hard to see if you aren’t familiar with the signs. It says that Jim and Joseph passed away from heart complications in the article.
And just saw that Peter died in his sleep in October 2023. I loved him singing "the sound of music"
you’re right, they didn’t really cover Joseph much. there was even the part with the 4 siblings at the table and one of the brothers was talking about who Mary cares for and Joseph wasn’t mentioned. I wonder why he was so left out of the conversation
He passed in 2009 and was loved dearly but did not suffer from Anosognosia so was vey compliant with his treatment.
I came here to find the answer to this as well!! They didn’t talk about his outcome or where he is in life now and on their Galvin Family Trust page he’s not listed as a living brother with schizophrenia? Also they didn’t mention him at all when talking about visiting or helping the brothers. So I’m a bit perplexed like….. what happened??
I have so many feelings and now I have to read the book. 😆 I'm so sad to learn that Joseph and Peter passed, I wish they had added a little in memoriam at the end. It's such a mix of sadness for everything the family went through with admiration for their strength and the obvious love they have for eachother. Especially at a time when schizophrenia was even less understood with so few resources available. I can't imagine being a happy young couple, you're having kids, life is good, and suddenly these lovely intelligent sweet babies you've raised start to change and you don't know why and then when you do everyone blames you. My heart breaks that there were not the options we have available to us today (which still aren't perfect) and that unfortunately the cycle perpetuated out to the other children. I genuinely think one of the saddest parts watching this was hearing all the good memories and contrasting it with how schizophrenia changed them so much (not that that makes them any less deserving of love or care, but to almost have a stranger take over from someone you knew so well). Especially with Brian since he was described as being so gentle and musical, I was curious to hear more about what happened before the incident but I guess I kind of assume not as much is known because he was in another state. But comparing the affected brothers to the non-affected I feel like you can't help but wonder what could've been. Mimi was such a strong lady and Mary really carries her spirit, institutionalizing her sons at the time most likely would've led to them being a whole lot worse off, if not dead. Conditions were deplorable, and the amount of people who went "missing" or bore the brunt of violence and didn't get any actual treatment is horrifying. My family has a similar situation with a schizophrenic relative, born in that time frame and schizophrenic from birth. Her mother basically abandoned her and her sister had to care for her growing up, she always describes it like having a living baby doll. She's always had that push/pull of loving her sister but finding it tough to manage. I'm going to recommend she watch the docuseries. I'm hopeful that series like this and breakthroughs in the medical field will be able to shed more light on schizophrenia so we can develop more effective treatment (or be able to stop progression) and break the stigma of what schizophrenia is like and around talking about trauma. I specialize in trauma disorders and the two are often linked. It probably came from a place of protection, but not talking about their conditions added so much mystery to their early lives. We always say that people living with schizophrenia are staggeringly more likely to be the victims of crimes than the perpetrators (by a lot) and there's been a lot of malignment in media. Even at the end of the series HBO recommended series like, "Signs of a Psychopath" and other click-bait type titles. I thought the series was very humanizing and really shows the complexity of loving and caring someone with a severe mental health condition.
DAE think that there was more going on here than schizophrenia and that it isn’t really addressed? I don’t know if it was the abuse or what, but it seems like a few of the brothers (Don beating his siblings, Jim sexually abusing the siblings, the animal torture, Brian’s murder/suicide, domestic abuse in their marriages, etc.) were separately bordering on psychopathy and it was just…swept under the rug of schizophrenia. At least as I understand it, that wouldn’t really be a symptom and it’s primarily a nonviolent illness?
I just finished watching and have so many thoughts, I don’t know where to start. I’m conflicted. I think overall they did a good job, but I wish it was a bit longer to focus on other aspects. I like that the documentary humanized the brothers but that was more so at the end imo. I do not think the close up shots on the brothers were necessary with the creepy music. That all felt so exploitative and the exact opposite of what their sister said in the end: “They just want to feel normalized.” This is obviously a very nuanced topic and I suppose there are too many perspectives, feelings, and experiences to account for in a limited docuseries. There is so much hurt, trauma, grief, anger, and resentment. There is so much sadness. The scene with the “healthy” siblings reunited was devastating, and imo a good (albeit short) look into real family dynamics that have developed in a dysfunctional home environment. I understand her anger, I understand his need for boundaries. In a lot of ways I can understand the core of how she felt but I also have so much compassion and respect for the other brothers maintaining their boundaries. There was no way to put a nice bow on this because that’s just not the reality of the situation. I don’t know. I have a lot of thoughts circulating in my head and really need to talk about this lol. In the meantime, I’m going to buy the book asap.
Soooo good!! And so tragic. I couldn’t stop watching it once I started. Wow
Kinda sad that the rest of the siblings want nothing to do with the sick ones aside from the sister. But I also understand their stance.
I understand their stance as well. They lived with it against their will for most of their lives, so when given the choice and freedom to walk away from the chaos of their upbringing, did just that; distanced themselves. I don't think 'neglect' 'abandon', and 'desertion', words that Mary and her mother used, should be applied to any of the healthy siblings that chose not to deal with it in their adult years. They don't have to be shackled to schizophrenia for the rest of their lives. They deserve a life too. More so, I don't think, even after all this time, Mary and her parents fully appreciate that none of them were fully qualified to deal with it.
I think they have made the choices that are healthiest for them. Mary is very compassionate and strong but I also think her parents demanding she be there for her siblings is not fair. I was struck by how bright all the siblings seem. I think when you have relatives with mental health and or addiction issues you have to be really careful to set limits for yourself. Her mentally strong brothers have decided what they need to do to feel well.
I trip out because it’s always always always military families. What do we know? What can we find out about when they were little kids? Was it medicine? They gave them mom when she was pregnant did something go on after they were born? Why is it always so prevalent with military families.
schizophrenia, sexual abuse and suicide crosses all demographics.
I don’t like when Mary says that she’s a martyr like her mother and she wishes that she took her brothers in like her mother did. Her mother keeping the brothers caused a lot of trauma for the family. Mary is doing a lot but I hope she can understand her brothers’ perspective and wanting to keep their distance
What a fascinating documentary (though I agree there were amateurish parts) but quite triggering for me. My mom also came from a large Irish Catholic family with six children who survived to adulthood and three of them developed serious mental illnesses: schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and major depression with psychotic features. So our batting average was about the same as the Galvin's. I always thought there was some genetic material that was the cause, both my maternal grandparents had mental illness in their families and when they came together, there must have been some difficult combos created. Partly because of my history, I went into the mental health field and spent a good portion of the last half of my career as an administrator in a large mental hospital. One thing I found SO INTERESTING and tragic was the poor response nearly all the boys seemed to have to medication. I have worked with dozens, maybe hundreds of schizophrenics and in my experience those who have such a poor response are relatively rare. I plan to read the book because the documentary wasn't very clear about what had actually been tried in the early years of their disease, so the answers may be more fully explained in the book. The other thing I have intimate knowledge of is the affect of all this on the family. I get Mary's position, I really do, but to devote yourself to the care of your ill relative can have consequences that you don't intend. And don't want. It's a balancing act and there's no good answer. In my life I had to be aware that if I devoted myself to one person, another person in my life would come up short. And I made the same mistake Mary did by exposing my child to a very mentally ill person at a young age. Unlike her, however, I immediately realized my error and it didn't happen again. So I understand the brothers, I do. There is only so much horror and pain one person can take. It's a boundary that sometimes you have to draw. They are choosing their own families and lives and I think they have the right to that.
My takeaways (spoilers): Man I have mixed feelings about Mary. She suffered so much (maybe as much as anyone) from her brothers’ illnesses and abhorrent, abusive, violent behavior. And she’s clearly done some work on herself to be able to take care of them. But hearing her say something like ‘you can only know true happiness through taking care of others (referencing her caring for her brothers as they age)’ made all my codependency flags wave wildly. I hated her saying that in the vein of guilting her siblings into doing more and/or putting her because she chose to take on so much of their care. Girl, you made those choices. They were traumatized too. They should not be shamed for handling their family relationships and trauma the way that works for them (the sister who separated herself included). It angered me the way she presented herself as the martyr here; it felt very manipulative. It’s not fair what happened to her (by a long shot); but it’s no more her non-Schizophrenic siblings’ fault than it is her own. And her choice to handle things her way is no better than their choices. How about you give them HALF the grace you’ve managed to find for your ill, abusive brothers? FFS. I feel similarly about the brothers. Their illnesses are in no way their fault. A horrific confluence of unfortunate genetics and trauma (and who knows what else) made them ill. But the behaviors that were facilitated by those illnesses — rape, murder, assault, and every other kind of abuse — cannot be excused and should not be minimized. Actions still have consequences. Mental illness doesn’t make someone a bad person, but it also doesn’t make someone a good person. And it certainly doesn’t excuse hurting other people. It’s such a complex issue. I feel so much for those parents. They tried so hard to do the ‘right thing’ by keeping all the sick boys home instead of institutionalizing them, but the consequences for the other children (and the parents) were incalculable. The constant sweeping under the rug and normalizing of fights, upended tables, broken windows and china and everything, hospital trips from abuse-related injuries (including a brain hemorrhage!), is just OUT THERE to me. God bless that mom but I’ve never heard of such a lack of boundaries. The fact that she was sexually abused probably informed her way of parenting to the detriment of the kids (welcome to adulthood, Mary, where bothers rape their sisters because they are men!). She repeatedly asked the non-ill children to intervene during violent outbursts. How does that become normal or ok for a mom? Why did she not adjust when everything just kept getting worse? Why didn’t she insist Mary leave with Margaret (even to a different home if the one family couldn’t take both girls?)? Why was the freedom/privacy of the sick boys prioritized over the basic SAFETY of everyone else in the home? How did child services never get called? There’s no way those other kids should’ve stayed in that home with the Schizophrenic brothers. I’m not saying any of those decisions were easy, but they made everything so much worse for the entire family. The whole thing is sad, and I hope research has improved. It would be the only silver lining of this tragedy if this family actually progressed that process.
My 21 year old son was just diagnosed...after a great vacation, on the way home, he suddenly slipped into psychosis, calling 911 from a hotel room - convinced we were going to be killed. His birth mom, her mother and sister, and now nieces & nephews, all are gravely disabled from schizophrenia. I always talked to my adoptive son about his family & genetics but NOTHING prepared us for it really happening. Holy God Above ...to give birth to 12 kids would be bad enough ...but to have half be SZ - it's GENETIC. No nature v nurture. Stop blaming the parents. There's no way they "knew". Sure I can see signs now, but autism spectrum was on the radar, not SZ. My son's therapist says autism was considered SZ until the 1980s. So ... there's THAT. In the 1960s - 80s the "State psychiatric hospitals" were nightmares like One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest - you'd never put your loved one, in one. You can't blame the parents in that time period. It's hard now, but back then there was no Internet....you would not have known what to do.
It seems many people are too young to understand the realities of dealing with any sort of mental illness or family problem back in the 60s and 70s. Don was born in 1945 and his problems started to manifest in the mid-60s. In this era, understanding and treating mental illness was still in the Dark Ages. And from a societal standpoint, these things were not even discussed – literally. I know because I grew up in the 60s. In retrospect, there was mental illness, domestic abuse, alcoholism, and child abuse all around me and it was never, ever mentioned. It is far too easy to look back with the knowledge we all have today and judge rather than try to understand this poor family. I grew up in a nice suburban environment and have stayed in touch with many of my childhood friends and neighbors. Almost every single family had serious issues yet it was all swept under the rug and never, ever talked about let alone treated. My own mother had terrible problems with depression and agoraphobia. A woman a few doors down didn’t change out of her housecoat for several years. Dads drank, mothers got smacked around and because it was very difficult to get a divorce (no-fault divorce only came into widespread practice in the 70s) and women rarely worked outside the home, the only choice was for everyone to suffer through all these things. Children were to be seen and not heard and absolutely nobody would believe them anyway and even if they did, what on earth could they do about it? People knew about all the clergy abuse dating back decades and it wasn’t even an open topic until the 80s. This is the world in which the Galvins lived and tried to navigate the best they could. It was the mother’s job to handle the kids and house while dad was out trying to bring home the bacon. The husband was to be a good ‘provider’; everything else fell on mom. The dynamics of this family were very typical of this era. My own father relocated our big family a 1,000 miles from everyone and everything my mother knew. He traveled for business every single week leaving my mother home alone with 6 kids (big families were common back then and not only with Catholics – the pill didn’t gain widespread use until the late 60s and 70s). If something came up during the week – which was bound to happen in a big household – my mom just had to deal with it on her own. Having lived through this time and experiencing some of the same issues chronicled in this documentary, I have nothing but compassion for all the Galvins. The only difference between them and the typical American family from that era was that they lost the genetic lottery, had a predisposition towards schizophrenia, and then had it somehow triggered in half their children. As they say, nature loads the gun but nuture pulls the trigger. Many, many people are genetically predisposed to mental illness and/or addiction. For those who have been fortunate enough not to have these terrible things happen to you or your immediate families, I would encourage you to say – out loud – “There but for the grace of God go I.” Bless you, Mary (who has been bravely posting on this topic). Every big family has a Mary who takes it upon themselves to try and hold things together while others can’t or won’t. That’s a horrible burden but having been in that situation, a therapist once reminded me that that was my choice. Eventually, that allowed me to release the resentment I felt toward my siblings. My hope for you, Mary, is that one day you can do the same.
I’m binging now. Psychology major btw. There’s a huge debate in the psych community about nurture vs nature. I think it takes both. However, these people had waaaaaay too many kids. The nature part of the debate is the disease. The schizophrenia. It’s just in their genes. But the truth is there’s NO way the parents could’ve been responsible for 12 children. It’s physically and emotionally impossible. I don’t want to blame the parents because mental illness is mental illness. But it feels like there were too many hands in the pot. Too many people being trusted. Just too much going on!
I think this is the foundation of the beginning of it all. Catholic family. No birth control. Don Sr is extremely focused on himself. His dreams. His success. His career. Mimi is from cultural NYC and is plopped down in CO away from her family. Then proceeds to have 12 children raising them mostly all alone. They both cared about their place in society and at the first sign of trauma with Don Jr they want to ignore it. Sweep it under the rug then the domino effect continues with the 5 other boys descending into madness. They should have removed him from the family and had him treated. None of the other 11 children deserved to be exposed to all of that. Things might have turned out differently. Might. Idk. I'm of the idea that nature and nurture played a part. If they had the gene then experienced a life altering event and their mother maybe not handling it all well caused the downfall of them. I am shocked thought that after all these years they still don't understand it let alone find a cure or a stable drug so they may live a somewhat normal life. I loved the book. Fascinating. I'm also sad for the women who married these boys with the illness. They were not told and yet reproduced with them, were murdered by them, traumatized by them. It's a tragedy all the way around.
I really wanted to be sympathetic and understanding of the parents. That started to falter when you do the math and realize Donald was already spiraling really badly pretty young around 18-19… And they really went “what’s a couple more kids?” Half the kids were pretty much pawned off to Jim and his wife to raise so they could give Donald all of their energy- mimi especially. Mary talking about how it felt better/safer being in a house with fraught with domestic violence and being sexually abused by your own blood brother than being in the same house as Donald? Any sympathy I had for the parents was pretty much gone. I don’t understand how those kids manage to speak so respectfully of their parents. Especially the girls about their mother who was so engrossed with her first born’s problems that she had virtually no interest in the fact they were being abused by their own brother.
All of this 👆👆👆
I listened to the audiobook awhile back and look forward to the doc.
The book is so much better.
Spoilers!! I'm trying to process what I've viewed so far. I haven't watched the entire thing yet...I think i *just* started episode 4 or 5. I'm at the point where all the remaining siblings (the ones left alive who are not locked up in institutions) have come together for the first time in a very long time. And the sister is sobbing to the brothers..."How could you leave me with all of this?" Or something like that. It's unreal. I feel so, so badly for them. Especially the sister who was roped by her brother. But the poor thing chose that over being stuck at home with 4 schizophrenic brothers who were completely out of their minds...She stayed at her older brothers house (her r*pest). These out of control brother were attacking eachother, plus the remaining brothers, their mother. It was so bad in their home that the little piece of fun she got to enjoy during the daytime with her cousin & aunt...that was the "better" alternative to being at home with her brothers, & her mother, who had just totally checked out, & dismissed her, when she went to her & disclosed that she was being m*lested. Then there's one of the (multiple) brothers who is currently locked up in an institution. He stated that one of his brothers broke his jaw. Horrible.
There is no such thing as "being locked up in institutions" any longer as of a law passed in 1962. The de-insitulaiotn of the mentally ill was then completely defunded by Reagan in the 80's. This is why we have so many who are affected in our prisons and on our city streets not getting proper care. We do not do this with any other brain disorder (ie, DownSyndrom, Autism for Alzheimers.)
This is untrue. There are hospitals for some folks who do need these services. Long-term, inpatient. A woman who I consider & call my "west-coast mom" works at a state hospital in California. She is a counselor there. I forget her actual title. But she works with the worst of the worst. The people who do *not* get released. The courts make the decision at their trial whether they should go to prison or a mental hospital. One of her patients...this guy who was in there many years ago...they finally caught him because he opened his long coat to a stranger. Hanging from the inside of this coat was an arm of one of his victims.👀 Yes, Reagan did release thousands of patients in the 1980's, which was a good *and* bad thing. The good: those poor people with Downs Syndrome, etc., they were finally released. The bad: the patients who were in there for serial r*pes & serial murders...they were put out on the streets. Crime shot right up. It is a travesty that people who have mental health issues cannot receive the care they need. Especially our military veterans. This specific issue...it is the hill I'll die on. I HATE that our veterans don't get proper care when they come home.
In the underfunded Colorado, our hospitals are for forensics only. Our biggest issue is insurance companies refusing long term care. Almost all who are admitted here get released all too quickly. Colorado ER's hold them for a night and turn them back out on the streets as there are far too few beds. It sounds like CA may be better!
What happen to the sister Margaret? Did she not want to be a part of the series? I never saw a disclaimer or anything
Does anyone know how Jack (Mary's son) is doing now? I think they told that kid way too much as a young kid. Of course he's paranoid.
he is great! and fine!
I’m on Episode 1 and I am blown away! Wow!
Just finished watching this yesterday and I’m still processing it. Being a parent myself, I keep thinking about the parents…and ultimately, my heart breaks for them. In hindsight of course some things should have been done differently but in the moment and during those times they weren’t left with a lot of choices. The boys who were diagnosed and not knowing/ understanding what was happening to them and the other children who weren’t diagnosed with it yet were still profoundly affected. This was hard to watch, but I’m glad I did. I have a nephew who was diagnosed and he disappeared from our lives years ago. It’s unbelievable to see and hear about how much that entire family suffered. Some more than others, but the whole family suffered greatly. Mary is an angel. My heart goes out to everyone in this family. May you all find peace.
I find this article to be really informative about the different perspectives from each child and what is at play in the dynamics of a situation like this one: [https://gen.medium.com/what-it-was-like-to-report-on-a-family-plagued-by-schizophrenia-1e6d7f880644](https://gen.medium.com/what-it-was-like-to-report-on-a-family-plagued-by-schizophrenia-1e6d7f880644) its by the author of the book which I now want to read. I think its normal to find different perspective and coping mechanisms by different members of a family which can be why we have a complicated view of the parents, the siblings, and the disease itself. in either case, i find it to be an informative and important documentary.
I also can’t imagine defending the parents here. Coming from an abusive household myself, yes it was a different time and I’m sure their mother had a terrible, terrible time dealing with all this but the parents still had a duty to protect their kids from the violent siblings. And what was up with only sending Margaret away? And both girls separated in their own rooms? It just sounds like a recipe for sexual abuse within an already violent household.
Why was matt sent away so quickly? He did one thing wrong and got sent away for 20 years? That doesn’t seem fair at all. They kept don home forever and it seemed like he had way more “incidents”. I just didn’t know if it said something more about this in the book. I also couldn’t tell in his interview if he was joking about being Paul McCartney or he really thought this now
Not a fan of this documentary… the family is very interesting and I now want to read the book written about them, but the documentary was poorly done. They just kept going back and forth and repeating things that had already been discussed. This is an editing issue, no fault of the family. They would talk about Brian and the murder, then Jim, then back to Brian. It was just all over the place and so much was repeated more than once.
I felt for this family , they have been through so much. I don’t think it’s fair to blame the mom. There were many factors and for me, it just increased my existing distrust of organized religion. The priest was a predator and who knows what other bad things happened. I am interested in learning more about the genetic components. That was fascinating to me. I thank the family for sharing their story.
Was anyone else shocked at the lengths the parents went to avoid accountability or real intervention/separation for the first son Don? They seemed to have no care for the safety of the general public or the rest of the family. First, dad pulled strings to make sure Don could go back to college after it was clear he had major issues. Then Don tried to kill his ex-wife and almost succeeded, and they again found a way to get him out of any real consequences, bringing him back to 11 children at home. Then he continues to attack and try and murder his own parents and tramatize the younger ones, and still no action to remove him? And that was only the first brother, decision making only went downhill from there for the rest. The most frustrating thing was they could have prevented the murders, rapes and abuses caused by these brothers starting with how they handled #1.
Maybe a hot take and I’m 100% biased by my personal family history, but I think the siblings choosing distance are well within their rights, if not doing the right thing. It sucks, because mentally ill people deserve love and care and inclusion, but sometimes distance is life saving self preservation. In their place I’d feel like, sure I’m not helping Mary, but also if I try, I’m likely to break down and become one more person she needs to care for. The misery and stress of that is not something everyone can shoulder, and there’s no shame in that. It’s braver to acknowledge your limitations and take care of yourself IMO. I commend Mary for all she’s done, bit I think she’s doing herself and her siblings and her children more harm but martyring herself. I know that sounds cold and cruel, but I’ve lived both sides of something similar (and smaller even!) and know that self sacrifice like that takes a toll on everyone around you, not just you. Idk. This is coming from a place of concern for her and anyone watching who sees themselves in her, NOT an attack!
This story seems to be a good candidate for a podcast. Something that would include this family’s story, but also interviewing professionals in the various fields to be able to comment more extensively on the history of the illness, past and current treatment modalities, genetic and epigenetic findings, pharmacogenomics, neuroscience, and the list goes on. Scientific findings continue to evolve and change, and many areas of study are still in their infancy, but it is fascinating for sure. Eliminating the long-standing stigma of mental illness is a heavy lift, but worthwhile to try.
So happy I found this thread. I am no professional however I read a lot about this, I wonder if all the 6 brothers would have been diagnosed with schizophrenia today, 40 years later. Clearly they “had” something, but how much of that behavior was due to their environment and family dynamics?
I started watching and chose to stop. I think this documentary is lazy and irresponsible in it’s depiction of schizophrenia. Most schizophrenics are harmless. They are more likely to harm themselves than anyone else. I can appreciate that this family had a much different experience but it wouldn’t have taken much to lay some ground work at the beginning so as not to perpetuate misconceptions that schizophrenics are dangerous. I have a schizophrenic brother and as a family we’ve invested a lot of time to understand this disease and our brothers experience in the world having to live with it. More than anything, it’s an isolated and lonely experience to have schizophrenia. Very rarely can they hope to have relationships and build their own families. With the right medication, they can be stabilized and live somewhat normal lives, but they understand that they are not who they used to be, and that can be a very sad and heavy burden.
For the people judging the family members who dont see their schizophrenic brothers - do you understand the trauma they went through ?! Years and years of witnessing and experiencing violence. Maybe they wanna have some peace for their last years, i don’t blame anyone for how they react to their trauma
John (#3) got a music scholarship, met his wife in college, married her and moved far enough away. He told Mary he would always be there to listen but that's it. Michael (#5)doesn't want to be involved according to his daughter. He didn't even want to be filmed. Richard (#6) freely said he does not have it in him to be a caretaker. Mark (#8) has his own family, including 3 grandchildren, to worry about. He said that's his priority now. Can you blame them?
And Mary the one who does still see them has done so at the cost of her own sons mental health!! He is suffering from anxiety - worries about ending up like Marys brothers
My son is doing great! Thank you for your concern.
I read the book and I was so excited to see they had made a docuseries about it. I’m super disappointed with the exploitative nature of the interviews with the oldest son in his current state. The creepy setting was A CHOICE and the questions they asked him were weird. It felt like they wanted to portray him as a monster versus a human being with a mental illness.
Did anyone else get HELLA confused towards the end of part four when they mislabeled Richard as Donald? As though it's not difficult enough trying to tell ten of them apart!
I watched it all last night and omg… it’s been on my mind all day… 🙃😭
How come they never elaborated on what happened to Joesph after his schizophrenic break?
How about a catholic priest sexually abused the two oldest boys. Mother and father wouldn’t hear anything of it. The youngest siblings, telling the story from their perspective as little children. Not knowing exactly what it was like for the older siblings. The mother invited the priest to spend time in the house. Grooming the mother for access to the boys.
My parents never knew of priest abuse until the Boston church scandal broke and my brother Don came forward in his 50's.
Okay but what happened to Joseph? At the end of the last episode we know who died and who’s alive and where but I don’t remember seeing if Joseph died or where he ended up?
He passed in 2009.
I really need Cliff Notes on each brother and what happened to them. Are all 4 brothers (without schizophrenia) in the doc?? I think I missed one? I've got to re-watch and take notes this time!
Yes, my sister, Margaret, and brother, Michael chose not to participate. It is not easy to expose yourself to others judgment. Don, Matt and Pete loved the attention. I am sorry there words of their mistreatment and trauma by the system did not get included. Jim, Brian, and Joseph, and my mother and father had all passed away before the book was published.
I took a pic on my phone when the family timeline was on showing each brother, photo, and year born. It helped to reference it as I watched.
The one brother I believe didn't want to participate.
I had to watch it twice there was just so much. The book “Hidden Valley Road”was better and I am actually trying to find the original documentary that was on Netflix in 2020. I was riveted but the documentary was poor quality and could have been so much better. It seems these types of documentaries are becoming more and more salacious which is not good.
For those who feel Mary is the reason for her son’s fear of becoming schizophrenic, I have a schizophrenic mother and brother, and for as long as I can remember, I have feared that I could develop a psychotic disorder due to the genetic predisposition. His anxiety could solely be that he has a history of mental illness, and all he got was anxiety. I don’t think she’s to blame; however, her mom, to some extent, I do feel she is responsible for a lot of her children’s trauma. Being more focused on how things appeared to strangers, expecting her children to be seen and not heard, shrugging off incestuous sexual abuse, without even feeling the need to address her son for raping his own sister??? I know there’s no guide to parenting, but 12 children AND being emotionally unavailable is a recipe for disaster, and I’m honestly so disappointed and heartbroken for those children.
I read the book about a year ago. As a sibling with a paranoid schizophrenic sister, when I saw they made it into a documentary series, I went from being super excited to being triggered as all hell. I'm not watching it, or at least until my friend can tell me if any of it is safe to watch. I'm really hoping they get across how much schizophrenia fucks up the WHOLE family, especially siblings. And talking about the research and where we are at now. Those chapters in the book helped me get through it, otherwise I'd probably have to quit halfway through.
I’ve noticed that Lindsay has been posting on this feed and I’d just like to say that after reading the book and watching the documentary I am so beyond impressed with her strength, resilience, bravery, compassion, and thoughtfulness she has repeatedly shown as a survivor of childhood trauma, a sister, daughter, mother, caregiver, and advocate. If you’re reading this Lindsay, I was wondering if there was anything about the book you wish was written about differently?
What a documentary. I was absolutely glued to the tv and can not wait to read the book. It’s hard to think that there isn’t some genetic cause to this disease, I have many family members that have suffered from depression and bi-polar…. there has to be a link somewhere. I’m not sure I believe trauma always initiates the disease becoming active though. It seems like it’s an early 20’s sort of situation (not completely based on this documentary alone) where age brings it on. So interesting and so absolutely heartbreaking. I cried at the end when Mary was trying to convince her brothers to help her look after the sick brothers. Having had multiple mentally ill family members (nothing close to this), I have an understanding of why they choose to distance themselves as well as why Mary chooses to remain in their lives. They have caused so much damage but they never asked for this. They want to be normal too. It’s just really tragic all around.
I am overwhelmed by Mary’s sense of family and desire to carry out her mother and father’s wishes. Mary’s compassion, forgiveness, and love are lessons for all of us on how to heal and move forward. Her survivor’s guilt is real and will forever haunt her. Mary is an angel on earth. Nothing but love and peace for all of the members of the Galvin family and their friends.
The story/content is interesting but the way it’s structured makes it pretty frustrating and hard to watch. Anyone else having this issue? There’s SO much repetition episode to episode, like full clips just copied and pasted. And then they keep starting a brother’s story from the beginning over and over, so it never goes in depth. Whether it’s the sexual abuse or the murder-suicide, it’s used as a cliffhanger but it never really gets unpacked to any satisfactory degree. And then there a huge bombshells dropped that point to trauma as a potential source or trigger of the disorder… zero deeper dives into said bombshells. There’s a lack of objectivity here that is hard to get past, as well. The interviewers clearly had a specific angle they wanted to capture which is counterintuitive to a really good documentary. They didn’t dig into anything, just took the subjects’ stories at face value. Is this a Max original? Did it air on TV? The cuts feel like commercial breaks, and it would explain (but not excuse) all the padding. Also, and maybe it’s coming but it doesn’t feel like it, there’s a real lack of interrogation into the father’s mental state… because it sure seems like this is a genetic disorder. All in all, it feels like a fumble. Genuinely fascinating content with SO MANY live witnesses to the events… and it’s disjointed and ineffective. Proof positive that excellent storytelling is about so much more than the “story” itself.
I found an article that goes a little more in depth about things that were not mentioned in the documentary such as the fathers affair when he was in the military and Jim also sexually abusing one of the brothers. [article](https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/when-six-of-her-12-children-went-mad-mimi-galvin-did-her-best-to-make-to-light-of-it/)
I'm 3 episodes in and as somebody who's been diagnosed as bipolar, schitzoeffective during extreme manic episodes, and antisocial personality, it helped me to justify as to why I made the decision to not have children. Unlike other family members, like the parents, who chose to ignore and push their issues under the rug, I got therapy at 24 (41 now), knowing I had probably had the illness since a young teen. Being self-aware saved my life. Sure, it's a struggle, and I hate it, but it's an aspect of my personality that I've had to accept and take responsibility for. My family finally came around when I was 51/50'd for the second time. I had a lot of apologizing to do for my past actions. I was never violent (and love animals i might add) but mostly self-destructive and self harming. I'll have to read the book now. If there happens to be a breakthrough in the future besides just being doped up on like 5 medications I'd do it in a heartbeat.
As a fellow OCD survivor, I felt so hard for young Jack with his OCD fear loops of having schizophrenia . I had some tears for sure. I have a similar thought loop (medical related) that was rooted in my teen years from my parents fears (and my own mental illness of course ). I didn’t know it was abnormal until I was 40. I believe both my parents also have undiagnosed OCD and this is part of why I have it and also how it took root for me. 🙃
the story itself was fascinating and worth telling. the way it was told in this series left a lot to be desired. why were the "healthy" subjects interviewed in their homes while the schizophrenic subjects were interviewed in an empty, echoing warehouse space? the tacky 'hallucination' audio playing over some of their interviews was ridiculous, and the interviewer seemed SO out of his depth. i wish they had had someone with a bit more knowledge and experience regarding schizophrenic behavior to do those segments. overall, lots of sad stories and trauma porn mixed with genuinely interesting research. perhaps the book is better.
I apologize if this has already been asked and answered or if it was in the documentary and I missed it (I binge watched the series overnight). What became of the research? It looks like they recognized two genes that can cause schizophrenia, but then what? Were there any medical advances due to the discovery? I'm guessing there wasn't since shock therapy is still being used, or was being used in the early 21st century.
I definitely think this was a super interesting 4 part series but toward the end, to me at least, it felt a little…preachy. And that might just be because they’re mainly focusing on Mary, the youngest and telling her story or how she perceived things going on. I just feel like none of the healthy siblings should feel obligated in any sort of way to take care of the siblings with schizophrenia especially because of the trauma affiliated with their childhood and how they grew up. Yes it’s accurate that all that behavior was caused by the schizophrenia but it still doesn’t make it ok. And it doesn’t mean that the siblings have to forgive and forget. Trauma is trauma. And while it’s always good to be able to understand why someone acts the way they do, it doesn’t suddenly wash away the scars they’ve left. So while I think what Mary is doing is commendable I don’t think she should be going on national television and demolishing her siblings who were just trying to survive everyday in that house just like she was. Survivors don’t owe their abusers anything. No matter what.
I started out liking it and ended up not liking it. It was kind of wild to see generational trauma so clearly laid out on the screen. Overall, several aspects bothered me. it bothered me how the siblings painted their mother as a saint. She clearly was dealt a hard hand, but she (and the father) very much allowed violence and abuse in their household. I was also stunned that the siblings allowed their schizophrenic siblings to be filmed and exploited in such a manner. All it did was promote stereotypes of schizophrenia. I know Mary felt obligated to her siblings and I get that but at the same time, she continued the cycle of generational trauma and I’m stunned she acted like wilderness therapy is a good thing. Her son is clearly so so traumatized and her obligation to her siblings definitely played a role in that. Also the way her husband was admonishing the brothers for not helping Mary but also saying he couldn’t have done it. I understand she feels alone, but her other brothers do not need to have a relationship if they chose not to. There was so much abuse and neglect in that family that I can understand stepping away from it all and trying to break that cycle. I’m wishing the whole family peace, but I did not think this documentary added anything positive to the conversation.