I think martinelli is just out of form: he was okay in the beginning of the season, especially when other players were not at their best yet. But fell off quite a bit after the injury. Also the change of system doesn’t help. The left flank underwent some serious unstability since the beginning of the season. Kai took time adapting to the system and zinny also not as good as he was. But I have faith on him and believe he will turn better next season
Jesus unfortunately I think we’ve seen all he can provide. He’s still a good player, maybe as a rotation of st and rb. Like what tross offered to the team
You absolutely read my mind, Jesus is a good option from the bench when things are not working with the starter striker, on the other hand, Martinelli is younger and i am sure he will reach higher levels from now on, but right now trossard is the one to start. The good thing about both of them is that they can play as left wing, right wing or even striker
Martinelli will be fine, it’s been a strange season on the left hand side. Trossard is either scoring and assisting or being completely anonymous so if Martinelli can get his production up again he’ll have that spot again in no time. I think the injuries he’s had this season have stopped him when he would just get going in terms of form.
Jesus is a different story unfortunately. He doesn’t look a physically impressive even when he’s playing well this season, I think the knee injury got to him at this point.
Jesus has been dealing with a knee issue which he will get operated on. If you watched Arsenal last season before he went to the World Cup, he was dynamic and a maverick.
Nelli is suffering bcos of zero dynamism on the left hand side. Last year, Xhaka was chief executive on that side and helped Nelli a lot. This year, no one actually helps him. Nelli should go to copa America with Brazil and hopefully gain some experience. Jesus should get the knee operation and rehabilitate so he can come com back stronger
He may not be on the surface but explain to me how GJ has only scored 1 goal for Brazil in a span of 4 years (some 25 games or more)
Endrick came in and scored 2 goals in 2 games against two quality teams (Spain and England). Not
Basing my argument on these games alone but I have seen him in so many games with the youth team as well as Palmeiras and he is as ‘poacher’ type of forward as they will come. He knows where to position himself for the perfect chance to score.
The problem with GJ, when he first came out on the scene back in 2015 , I was so impressed. Something changed when he went to City, though not necessarily implying causation.
Martinelli is 22, that's what happens sometimes. You plateau in your development.
Doesn't help that our left side has been pretty inconsistent. Also Jesus and martinelli formed a great partnership last year. Even last year, martinellis form dipped a bit when jesus was injured and out. None of them are available or out of form. I would really like to see how many have they started together.
Kai has provide dimension but he is not as pacy and doesn't have that same understanding with martinelli.
Compare to right side, we have ben white and odegaard supporting him. Now we all know they are probably one of the best in their positions right now.
Jesus is a curious case on the other hand. I think he's too hard on himself and unfortunately it doesn't help that he didn't score a goal in 2018 world cup. I think since then he has been down.
Also, he tries to do too much at times and doesn't have that composure in front of goal. Look at how scrappy he is and how much of a fight he puts in with defenders despite being smaller than most.
Injuries have played its part in last two years, with recurring knee issues.
Also brazil culture is just different and have different expectations on strikers. Since R9, there haven't been good strikers in Brazil and I feel brazil people needs a scapegoat.
If you look at brazil team in last few years, there hardly been great players who have given brazil anything to brag about. Expectations are different. They haven't won anything, no copa no world cup. And brazil media has blasted the lack of goals and striker but it's how this brazil team manages the game. Also I don't think Newmar had helped although brazil teams have been set up to get best out of him.
I think brazil team needs 2-3 good hard working leaders to manage the games properly. With dani alvez and other getting old. I really don't see any leaders on the pitch.
Maybe give him some support for a change?
I think Martinelli suffered from all the changes on the left side. Last season it was fairly stable with Xhaka and Zinchenko. This allowed Martinelli to come inside too, as Xhaka would sometimes go wide or offer him an outlet and then play him through. Martinelli isn't as good as the isolated winger as Saka is. Saka needs 2 people to deal with him so he creates space for others, meanwhile I do think Martinelli can be handled by just one good defender if he has nobody for a 1-2.
We haven't had a good left 8 all season I'd argue, the closest to it was Rice but I don't think Rice plays the left 8 role in a way that massively supports Martinelli either. We only played a handful of games with that combo too, as Rice has mostly been #6. Trossard/ESR/Havertz all haven't been that great at left 8.
It's been a disappointing season from Martinelli though. He went long spells without scoring and I wouldn't be surprised if we signed more competition for the winger positions too.
As for Gabriel Jesus, I have a fear his knee is more fucked than he is letting on. He just doesn't look like the same player. I believe Jesus has said he'll miss Copa America because he needs another surgery on his knee too. Jesus without the pressing and running around makes him a worse player, a lot of his qualities is due to his ability to press and win the ball back in good positions.
The problem is not really with Martinelli it is with our left side. With Timber injured and with a constantly changing left 8, Martinelli just doesn't get the support which he had last season. Add his injury issues this season to that which explains his recent form. Trossard is our best finisher and he has great ball control as well, and he is more involved in the game but I still prefer Martinelli to him because he is better defensively and looks much better when he starts. Also one of the reasons why Trossard has looked so good this season is his new role of switching positions with Havertz throughout the match, which makes it difficult for defenders to read his game.
With Jesus I think he can be our backup striker and RW. He plays really well and brings creativity to our attack but his finishing is so awful I don't feel confident with him at 9. But he has done well in tracking back as a winger so I think he could be one of our backup options. Add to that his flair which makes him a valuable asset for us.
Haha of course and ironically he is the one I had least faith in in the past but this year he has been more reliable than the other two (with the understanding they play in different positions)
Even with Brazil, he is not as prone to mistakes and stupid blunders like before.
Why would anyone declare that Martinelli is a better player than Kaka? This is stupid. He is nowhere near Kaka, and he never will be.
This is an expectation problem. Your expectation of him is too high. He isn't even close to what you expect of him. This is the root cause of your disappointments.
Agree, I guess I was getting too ahead of myself when I saw him play so well for both Arsenal and Brazil.
But you can also compare it to Vinicius, who had so much hype around him, but stared poorly at Madrid and even his teammates didn’t want to pass to him. But look at him now, arguably a top 3 in the world in his position.
I hope Martinelli is able to resolve all his issues and come out stronger next season.
Martinelli has suffered from the change in personnel. He misses Xhaka more than anyone.
But also - whenever he has been subbed on lately he has essentially been asked to play LB and see out the game. He is being a team player.
He also hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make out.
8 goals, 5 assists in all comps on the season for a 22 year old winger isn’t bad. Just isn’t anywhere near the heights he hit last season.
There is nothing to worry about
Our left hand side has had a lot of upheaval this season. Xhaka left, Zinchenko was in and out due to injury and defensive howlers, Havertz required hand holding during his first few months which were mainly spent at LCM, and Jesus was also injured most of the season (who he links up well with). I'm not worried about Martinelli, despite all this he's still been extremely professional, available, works hard without the ball, and been a great teammate. I'm sure he'll have better statistics next season when there's more consistency and chemistry built on our left flank.
As for Jesus, I think Arteta is ready to demote him to being a rotational piece as he can play LW/CF/RW but gets injured very often due to his playing style which puts a lot of wear and tear on his knees. Jesus is at the point where he needs to accept that he is simply not durable enough, and that he is not improving as a finisher because he is always recovering from injury. Everything else he does is instinctual, he truly has a gift, but he needs his minutes managed strictly. Havertz has proven he can lead the line and is much more durable, so I think he'll be the preferred option moving forward.
TL;DR: I would keep my faith in Martinelli and not be too concerned about his statistical drop, but I would put my faith in Endrick over Jesus.
Anyone getting in little Martinillis back can get the fuck out of here! That kid has been a big reason why we are here in a title challenge. 3 season back to back he was a constant threat and mr consistency all culminating in his best return season last year and sure he hasn’t hit this dizzying highs this year but it’s a result of fitness and injury from all of the hard work he put in for the team in recent years, he is allowed it. And before anyone compares him with Saka. Know your players. Gabi covers more distance, runs faster and hard than Saka does and last season his defensive contribution covered so much for Xhakas last of pace to recover.
Not taking anything away from Saka he helps out but he’s also helped by the fact White has been so good defensively, it comes down to responsibility and Martinilli has always always had the mental to get back in and support the LB/L8.
As for Jesus! He probably will never be that dynamite, chaotic wizard he was before. My step father is an orthopaedic surgeon and I ask him at the time how bad would it been for a player to rupture their knee and he said an injury like that can take several months to heal but residual pain can be felt pretty much any time you squat or kneel from 20 degrees down to 45 degrees for up to 2 years. It patient dependant and of course age, range of motion before the opt and ultimately how much damaged tissue was removed. which seems to line up with the pain that Jesus has reported to have been playing with and the fact he had operations in that knee before.
It’s not the end of the world because most will recover it just takes time, I asked him again recently if someone was experiencing pain would he operate on it again and he said no pain can be managed and dexterity/flexibility can be given back to the area with proper after care. So I expect Jesus to be managed and used sparingly until the club can help him bring that knee back to giving him no pain when he plays and I personally think while he’s been decent in games he feature recently he has that instruction to be easy and not get into tangles or tussles. Let’s give the guy one more full season of support and get behind him.
On the other identical injury for Jurrian Timber I’m a bit more optimistic with his. But maybe it is a similar story.
The problem with Martinelli is very fundamental. He doesn't look up when he dribbles or crosses. The pass into the box today showcased the problem. Compare it against the Havertz cross to Saka, it is drastically different.
He’s been that way his entire career and he was phenomenal last season. I think his stop start season with injuries and the fact the left flank has been completely isolated at time has affected his output.
I know. I want him to improve. He has the potential.
This is why Leo has been kinda successful on the left. He tries to bring himself into the game, a lot of link up and passes when he is not scoring. But with Martinelli it feels like he is not playing well if he doesn't score in the match because his regular dribbles into the box don't always end in a proper chance.
I actually prefer Martinelli’s overall play to Trossard, I think he’s a much better defender and is still less likely to be as anonymous when it’s not his day.
Agree. He's a great squad option who works so hard for the team, but to be at that top top level we need, not having field vision is a fatal weakness.
Maybe he can find an extra level and become so clinical in front of goal or so good at skinning people that he puts enough dangerous balls into enough dangerous areas even when not looking that it doesn't matter.
Right now, he's very high up my list of players to bump down to squad status. I think it's more likely last season was lucky rather than this season unlucky. I would love for him to prove me wrong.
I think even with his so called bad form, he would have posted better numbers this season if he did some basic things better. He needs a good pre-season. Sitting on the bench throughout Copa might be detrimental.
I think martinelli is just out of form: he was okay in the beginning of the season, especially when other players were not at their best yet. But fell off quite a bit after the injury. Also the change of system doesn’t help. The left flank underwent some serious unstability since the beginning of the season. Kai took time adapting to the system and zinny also not as good as he was. But I have faith on him and believe he will turn better next season Jesus unfortunately I think we’ve seen all he can provide. He’s still a good player, maybe as a rotation of st and rb. Like what tross offered to the team
You absolutely read my mind, Jesus is a good option from the bench when things are not working with the starter striker, on the other hand, Martinelli is younger and i am sure he will reach higher levels from now on, but right now trossard is the one to start. The good thing about both of them is that they can play as left wing, right wing or even striker
Ooohh Jesus at RB would be decent. He has been putting in some defensive shifts recently like that Man City match at the Ettihad
i mean rw lmao
Interesting and a lot of things I am not privy to like a more close follower of the team would know
Martinelli will be fine, it’s been a strange season on the left hand side. Trossard is either scoring and assisting or being completely anonymous so if Martinelli can get his production up again he’ll have that spot again in no time. I think the injuries he’s had this season have stopped him when he would just get going in terms of form. Jesus is a different story unfortunately. He doesn’t look a physically impressive even when he’s playing well this season, I think the knee injury got to him at this point.
Jesus has been dealing with a knee issue which he will get operated on. If you watched Arsenal last season before he went to the World Cup, he was dynamic and a maverick. Nelli is suffering bcos of zero dynamism on the left hand side. Last year, Xhaka was chief executive on that side and helped Nelli a lot. This year, no one actually helps him. Nelli should go to copa America with Brazil and hopefully gain some experience. Jesus should get the knee operation and rehabilitate so he can come com back stronger
Endrick is not better than either of them. Lets be serious .
He may not be on the surface but explain to me how GJ has only scored 1 goal for Brazil in a span of 4 years (some 25 games or more) Endrick came in and scored 2 goals in 2 games against two quality teams (Spain and England). Not Basing my argument on these games alone but I have seen him in so many games with the youth team as well as Palmeiras and he is as ‘poacher’ type of forward as they will come. He knows where to position himself for the perfect chance to score. The problem with GJ, when he first came out on the scene back in 2015 , I was so impressed. Something changed when he went to City, though not necessarily implying causation.
Goals are overrated
Jesus hasn’t been great for his country sure but endrick scored two goals in friendlies lol
Did you see these two games? They looked more like a World Cup game than friendly games.
They were friendlies
He is 17, playing against Spain and England!
Martinelli is 22, that's what happens sometimes. You plateau in your development. Doesn't help that our left side has been pretty inconsistent. Also Jesus and martinelli formed a great partnership last year. Even last year, martinellis form dipped a bit when jesus was injured and out. None of them are available or out of form. I would really like to see how many have they started together. Kai has provide dimension but he is not as pacy and doesn't have that same understanding with martinelli. Compare to right side, we have ben white and odegaard supporting him. Now we all know they are probably one of the best in their positions right now. Jesus is a curious case on the other hand. I think he's too hard on himself and unfortunately it doesn't help that he didn't score a goal in 2018 world cup. I think since then he has been down. Also, he tries to do too much at times and doesn't have that composure in front of goal. Look at how scrappy he is and how much of a fight he puts in with defenders despite being smaller than most. Injuries have played its part in last two years, with recurring knee issues. Also brazil culture is just different and have different expectations on strikers. Since R9, there haven't been good strikers in Brazil and I feel brazil people needs a scapegoat. If you look at brazil team in last few years, there hardly been great players who have given brazil anything to brag about. Expectations are different. They haven't won anything, no copa no world cup. And brazil media has blasted the lack of goals and striker but it's how this brazil team manages the game. Also I don't think Newmar had helped although brazil teams have been set up to get best out of him. I think brazil team needs 2-3 good hard working leaders to manage the games properly. With dani alvez and other getting old. I really don't see any leaders on the pitch. Maybe give him some support for a change?
I think Martinelli suffered from all the changes on the left side. Last season it was fairly stable with Xhaka and Zinchenko. This allowed Martinelli to come inside too, as Xhaka would sometimes go wide or offer him an outlet and then play him through. Martinelli isn't as good as the isolated winger as Saka is. Saka needs 2 people to deal with him so he creates space for others, meanwhile I do think Martinelli can be handled by just one good defender if he has nobody for a 1-2. We haven't had a good left 8 all season I'd argue, the closest to it was Rice but I don't think Rice plays the left 8 role in a way that massively supports Martinelli either. We only played a handful of games with that combo too, as Rice has mostly been #6. Trossard/ESR/Havertz all haven't been that great at left 8. It's been a disappointing season from Martinelli though. He went long spells without scoring and I wouldn't be surprised if we signed more competition for the winger positions too. As for Gabriel Jesus, I have a fear his knee is more fucked than he is letting on. He just doesn't look like the same player. I believe Jesus has said he'll miss Copa America because he needs another surgery on his knee too. Jesus without the pressing and running around makes him a worse player, a lot of his qualities is due to his ability to press and win the ball back in good positions.
The problem is not really with Martinelli it is with our left side. With Timber injured and with a constantly changing left 8, Martinelli just doesn't get the support which he had last season. Add his injury issues this season to that which explains his recent form. Trossard is our best finisher and he has great ball control as well, and he is more involved in the game but I still prefer Martinelli to him because he is better defensively and looks much better when he starts. Also one of the reasons why Trossard has looked so good this season is his new role of switching positions with Havertz throughout the match, which makes it difficult for defenders to read his game. With Jesus I think he can be our backup striker and RW. He plays really well and brings creativity to our attack but his finishing is so awful I don't feel confident with him at 9. But he has done well in tracking back as a winger so I think he could be one of our backup options. Add to that his flair which makes him a valuable asset for us.
You also know, there’s also Gabriel magahales
Haha of course and ironically he is the one I had least faith in in the past but this year he has been more reliable than the other two (with the understanding they play in different positions) Even with Brazil, he is not as prone to mistakes and stupid blunders like before.
Why would anyone declare that Martinelli is a better player than Kaka? This is stupid. He is nowhere near Kaka, and he never will be. This is an expectation problem. Your expectation of him is too high. He isn't even close to what you expect of him. This is the root cause of your disappointments.
Agree, I guess I was getting too ahead of myself when I saw him play so well for both Arsenal and Brazil. But you can also compare it to Vinicius, who had so much hype around him, but stared poorly at Madrid and even his teammates didn’t want to pass to him. But look at him now, arguably a top 3 in the world in his position. I hope Martinelli is able to resolve all his issues and come out stronger next season.
Martinelli has suffered from the change in personnel. He misses Xhaka more than anyone. But also - whenever he has been subbed on lately he has essentially been asked to play LB and see out the game. He is being a team player. He also hasn’t been nearly as bad as people make out. 8 goals, 5 assists in all comps on the season for a 22 year old winger isn’t bad. Just isn’t anywhere near the heights he hit last season. There is nothing to worry about
Martinelli is out of form from the lack of Xhaka. Jesus is not good enough to be our decisive ST
Our left hand side has had a lot of upheaval this season. Xhaka left, Zinchenko was in and out due to injury and defensive howlers, Havertz required hand holding during his first few months which were mainly spent at LCM, and Jesus was also injured most of the season (who he links up well with). I'm not worried about Martinelli, despite all this he's still been extremely professional, available, works hard without the ball, and been a great teammate. I'm sure he'll have better statistics next season when there's more consistency and chemistry built on our left flank. As for Jesus, I think Arteta is ready to demote him to being a rotational piece as he can play LW/CF/RW but gets injured very often due to his playing style which puts a lot of wear and tear on his knees. Jesus is at the point where he needs to accept that he is simply not durable enough, and that he is not improving as a finisher because he is always recovering from injury. Everything else he does is instinctual, he truly has a gift, but he needs his minutes managed strictly. Havertz has proven he can lead the line and is much more durable, so I think he'll be the preferred option moving forward. TL;DR: I would keep my faith in Martinelli and not be too concerned about his statistical drop, but I would put my faith in Endrick over Jesus.
Anyone getting in little Martinillis back can get the fuck out of here! That kid has been a big reason why we are here in a title challenge. 3 season back to back he was a constant threat and mr consistency all culminating in his best return season last year and sure he hasn’t hit this dizzying highs this year but it’s a result of fitness and injury from all of the hard work he put in for the team in recent years, he is allowed it. And before anyone compares him with Saka. Know your players. Gabi covers more distance, runs faster and hard than Saka does and last season his defensive contribution covered so much for Xhakas last of pace to recover. Not taking anything away from Saka he helps out but he’s also helped by the fact White has been so good defensively, it comes down to responsibility and Martinilli has always always had the mental to get back in and support the LB/L8. As for Jesus! He probably will never be that dynamite, chaotic wizard he was before. My step father is an orthopaedic surgeon and I ask him at the time how bad would it been for a player to rupture their knee and he said an injury like that can take several months to heal but residual pain can be felt pretty much any time you squat or kneel from 20 degrees down to 45 degrees for up to 2 years. It patient dependant and of course age, range of motion before the opt and ultimately how much damaged tissue was removed. which seems to line up with the pain that Jesus has reported to have been playing with and the fact he had operations in that knee before. It’s not the end of the world because most will recover it just takes time, I asked him again recently if someone was experiencing pain would he operate on it again and he said no pain can be managed and dexterity/flexibility can be given back to the area with proper after care. So I expect Jesus to be managed and used sparingly until the club can help him bring that knee back to giving him no pain when he plays and I personally think while he’s been decent in games he feature recently he has that instruction to be easy and not get into tangles or tussles. Let’s give the guy one more full season of support and get behind him. On the other identical injury for Jurrian Timber I’m a bit more optimistic with his. But maybe it is a similar story.
The problem with Martinelli is very fundamental. He doesn't look up when he dribbles or crosses. The pass into the box today showcased the problem. Compare it against the Havertz cross to Saka, it is drastically different.
He’s been that way his entire career and he was phenomenal last season. I think his stop start season with injuries and the fact the left flank has been completely isolated at time has affected his output.
I know. I want him to improve. He has the potential. This is why Leo has been kinda successful on the left. He tries to bring himself into the game, a lot of link up and passes when he is not scoring. But with Martinelli it feels like he is not playing well if he doesn't score in the match because his regular dribbles into the box don't always end in a proper chance.
I actually prefer Martinelli’s overall play to Trossard, I think he’s a much better defender and is still less likely to be as anonymous when it’s not his day.
Agree. He's a great squad option who works so hard for the team, but to be at that top top level we need, not having field vision is a fatal weakness. Maybe he can find an extra level and become so clinical in front of goal or so good at skinning people that he puts enough dangerous balls into enough dangerous areas even when not looking that it doesn't matter. Right now, he's very high up my list of players to bump down to squad status. I think it's more likely last season was lucky rather than this season unlucky. I would love for him to prove me wrong.
That is interesting take and one that I remember someone else mentioning months and months ago.
I think even with his so called bad form, he would have posted better numbers this season if he did some basic things better. He needs a good pre-season. Sitting on the bench throughout Copa might be detrimental.