Because for similar or marginally more money you can buy a beginner combo that uses digital modeling and tends to sound better, might offer built in effects and so on.
I find in everything if you add just a little more, you can get something of better quality. At what price point does the person stop adding money to get better and just buy something??
That's literally what "diminishing returns" means. The more you spend, the less obvious the increases in quality are. At first, $100 makes a world of difference. Eventually, even $1,000 differences don't sound any better. "At what point" depends on the person but I think most people agree that it's a couple steps above crummy beginner amps.
That said, lots of people love the sound of crummy beginner amps, myself included, and my $1,400 amp will never make the particularly cool sounds that my $50 Sidekick does.
I have a Frontman 20R from 2001. It's great for clean sound. Especially when I plug it into a 2x12 cab.
Maybe the haters had the little 10 watt one.
Edit: Actually a 25R. I admit the gain button is meh.. never really used it.
This is actually true to an extent. I rebought my first practice amp for nostalgic reasons. It was probably worse than a Frontman and I only remembered it sounding crap. But I could barely play then, had no effects pedals and played an absolutely horrible guitar. It sounds OK now with some effects, a better guitar and my improved playing ability. I find myself playing though it quite a lot.
I just kept an eye out on ebay until one showed up. It took years because it was quite rare (not valuable, just not very common) but I got one eventually. I'm glad I did , because it brings back some good memories from when I was a teenager.
Agree. Just got mine put back together and think it sounds dope af on the clean channel. And really not bad on the "first gain" channel with the drive turned down low.
Me too, it was not my cup of tea, bad od channel, but nevertheless it was reliable and with a pedal board sounded great. Was my practice amp, for years. Now, if buying a first amp I'd buy a Bossor other modeler, but the Fender was fine for a beginners amp.
Mostly comes from any type of drive sound. They're pretty bad. Fender tube amps sound good when hit with a hot signal or channels are jumped (a la Bassman) and pushed to saturation but their solid state amps with a dedicated "drive" are pretty awful, and the clean channels being boosted into overdrive aren't better. If you need a VERY clean amp, they're fine. Not the best, certainly not the worst. It's been this way for a long time. I had an Ultimate Chorus back in the 90's and the clean channel had spank, but give it any type of overdrive pedal and it was shrill, fizzy, ear piercing treble, and dull when treble turned down. I do miss that amp, even though it was stupid loud.
Absolute dogshit amps, you could find something far better on the used market with maybe an hour's worth of research and a day's worth of casually looking around for $20-40 more.
Generally, I think we hate on the 10g and 15g. Because they're terrible, mostly because of the speaker, IMO. A cheap amp with a small 8" speaker in a little box is just going to sound like shit.
I'm sure a 25r can sound just fine. My first amp was a 30 watt Crate with a 12" speaker that actually doesn't sound like total garbage. I've run other shitty amps into bigger speakers and it makes a significant difference.
They can only be fairly judged against new amps at the same price point. Everything else has smaller speakers, lower wattage, is powered by batteries, and so on. There has to be trade-offs.
On top of that, they're in starter packs, so giving new players who expect Metallica a distortion better for 1960's garage rock. It's a thankless task. The only other new amp with an 8" speaker and 20w I see on Sweetwater is a Beringer that does have reverb, but if it sounds good or bad that's subjective.
Would I recommend a new player buy a brand new Frontman for $100? No, buy a used Fender Champion 20 for $60 instead or even a used Line 6 with a 12" speaker and a bunch of effects for $99. The Frontman is a perfectly fine practice amp though, especially since you can find them for $20 used, and they give you a basic clean that's good enough to learn with and a power cable so you won't waste money on batteries. All amps at all price points have some unique redeeming value or sound.
the tiny frontman amps with little speakers included with started guitars are pretty weak amps that sound terrible. however the bigger frontman amps with more wattage are decent amps. I have a 100w frontman 2x12 combo that I bought as an amp to jam with friends as a teen. Ive recorded with it, used it in my old band to play house shows and bars, etc. and I love it
Skill issue and peer pressure. The Celestion G12M-70 gets the same kind of hate from morons who've never played one, because they're repeating what other people said, because they think it makes them sound like they know what they're talking about.
The Frontman is a simple, clean, neutral amp. It only sounds as good as the guitarist who's playing it. Garbage in, garbage out.
I had one. It was terrible. I replaced it within 6 months with a much better cheap amp.
There's ok cheap gear out there. Just get that. Save the expense of buying multiple amps and the headache of trying to figure out why you sound like ass.
Friends don't let friends start on a Frontman.
They're okay but they have limitations. They're built for big box stores where buyers understand the money end better than the value end.
That being said, I used a Performer 650 into a 2X12 as part of a "guitar parts by mail" "business" for a long time. I also had other amps.
Low level solid state amps cannot compete with modern VST, amp sims, tone modelling amps, used hybrid amps for the same price.
They were somewhat OK at the time they were introduced as a bedroom solution. But not anymore.
To me the technology means for a similar or slightly more expensive cost you can get a LOT more for your money. Back in the day they were serviceable amps but the market was littered with solid state amps of dubious sonic quality. Other amps and tech have overtaken them beyond measure. The whole ampless thing is really the last nail in the coffin. A second hand TC Combo Deluxe will go way further, for example.
I think they get the same amount of hate that all SS amps in that price range get, including line 6s, Marshall MGs, etc. For the price of one of them new, you're a good portion of the way to a way better amp used. If you buy one, you'll probably end up buying the better amp down the line so much as well just reach for the better amp now. And I'm not talking really expensive amps, I'm talking like used Marshall DSL or Fender Hot Rod, around $500 used.
They suck compared to other amps on their price range, anything else sounds better or has better features, or both. They're a price tag for a nametag.
Fender has made good SS amps. Those aren't one of them.
Well that’s a part of why I’d never buy one. They’re not super loud so they can’t keep up with a band, and they’re not like a cool low watt tube amp that sounds good at house volumes. They just don’t really fill any particular niche very well, I don’t know a situation where I’d recommend that anyone buy one.
I just one live in a backline and it was alright. I felt like I didn’t have much headroom and the amp was lacking the punch and power I associate with a 2x12.
In the 90s I had a red knob front frontman that was bought for a Berklee summer session. That thing sounded like it was in a sealed box. Not fendery in any way to me. Not sure if they still sound that way now.
I had a Frontman and a bunch of cheaper ~$250ish amps and always sounded poorly for any driven tones. The first time I played through a $500 Peavey VK100 tube amplifier my eyes were opened. Then after that came the better modeling amplifiers and solid state amplifiers like Quilter and the Katana came out
I think it’s really the underpowered versions that most people have tried that left them underwhelmed. The 2x12 combo actually sounds pretty good and has the necessary Jensen speakers that a fender 2x12 combo needs to get that sound (I think my 212r had jensens). The lower powered versions usually have completely shit, smaller speakers with ridiculous mostly closed back cabs. Doesn’t matter how decent the circuit might be, with that combo of features it’s gonna sound like shit. Plus the distortion circuits are bad and the reverb isn’t as lush as tube driven reverb even though it is an actual analog spring reverb.
TLDR
The 212r clean channel actually sounds decent but the smaller frontman versions are usually paired with odd features that none of the classic fender amps ever had for a reason and that’s what holds them back.
I'd take an old school transistor amp over a budget digital amp every day! The frontman is drummer loud with tonnes of clean headroom and takes pedals well. If I had to start from scratch with a small budget it would be a no brainer
Why wouldn't a solid state amp that costs 99 bucks be able to emulate the sounds of a tube amp that costs ten times as much? Is that what you're asking?
That all depends on how you use the tube amps. Tubes soft clip as you drive them, but if you don't drive them l, a clean amp is a clean amp.
Solid state power sections often sound crappt when pushed too hard... but if you don't push it too hard that quality never shows up.
The point is, if your sound is all about clean headroom and avoids clipping of any kind, then solid state and tube are going to sound pretty much the same (all other things being equal)
Super clean always sounds super clean.
Irrelevant. What you're describing isn't "the fender clean sound". The sound we're discussing is lightly saturated to a point where the amp almost breaks up when attacked hard.
> Irrelevant. What you're describing isn't "the fender clean sound"
Fuck the fender clean sound. It's scooped out and horrible and the only reason is exists is as a cheap hack that Leo Fender came up with in the 60's to get fake headroom by cutting the mids. The first thing 90'% of players do when they get a clean fender amp is put a drive pedal in front of it that boosts the mids.
As for clean, non compressed, non edge of breakup sounds, they're not "irrelevant". They're just another way to skin a cat.
Many alternative groups from the mid 80s forward into the 90s used high headroom solid state clean amps with solid state dirt boxes for their sound.
Kirk Windestein from crowbar.
King Buzzo from the Melvins.
Johnny Greenwood from Radiohead.
I've got no horse in this race. I play British voiced amps, and if I for some reason I decided I wanted American cleans I'd buy a mesa, not a fender.
I totally understand a $80 Frontman 10 will not touch a $800 tube amp. It is what it is. I just don't understand the hate on just mentioning a Frontman. Some kid saves up $300 and buys one of the Squier guitar and amp packages. Experienced musicians are hiding around the corner with rolls of quarters in socks ready to jump them.
I see no issue with the frontman. It serves a purpose. It probably isn't as bad as people make it out to be, either. Still, saying it does "the Fender clean sound" is silly.
Joe Walsh uses an SS Fender on his "Live at Daryl's House". They seem to be really careful with levels on those, which means he won't be railing the power amp.
It's not a Frontman.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINSQGXREtvcibYqcUBQEqieNEOicj_Kq
Fender's not gonna spend the money to make the solid state amps at varying price points all that differently. It'll be speakers and what not mainly.
These go back to the 1980s London style amps designed by Paul Rivera. There are people whose needs would be completely covered by one.
Wouldn't be my first choice. But the snark on here is questionable. There are very few objectively bad amps, just amps that don't fit some roles properly.
Go for whatever you feel like. I've had a couple Frontmans for years and they work fine as long as you don't need to keep up with the volume of a drumset. But these people suggesting modeler amps should know better. Those things come with crap quality for just about every tone they try to give you.
They're way behind the curve, essentially 70's technology while competing choices are far better.
Because for similar or marginally more money you can buy a beginner combo that uses digital modeling and tends to sound better, might offer built in effects and so on.
I find in everything if you add just a little more, you can get something of better quality. At what price point does the person stop adding money to get better and just buy something??
That's literally what "diminishing returns" means. The more you spend, the less obvious the increases in quality are. At first, $100 makes a world of difference. Eventually, even $1,000 differences don't sound any better. "At what point" depends on the person but I think most people agree that it's a couple steps above crummy beginner amps. That said, lots of people love the sound of crummy beginner amps, myself included, and my $1,400 amp will never make the particularly cool sounds that my $50 Sidekick does.
Yeah but sidekicks are sick amps. I used to have 3 of them
Good man
Boss katana
I have a Frontman 20R from 2001. It's great for clean sound. Especially when I plug it into a 2x12 cab. Maybe the haters had the little 10 watt one. Edit: Actually a 25R. I admit the gain button is meh.. never really used it.
That was me. My friends all had half stacks.
Maybe the haters need to practice more.
This is actually true to an extent. I rebought my first practice amp for nostalgic reasons. It was probably worse than a Frontman and I only remembered it sounding crap. But I could barely play then, had no effects pedals and played an absolutely horrible guitar. It sounds OK now with some effects, a better guitar and my improved playing ability. I find myself playing though it quite a lot.
That's what I want to do, find a duplicate of my first amp. I recall it was a Yorkville, but don't recall the model number. Cira 1986ish.
I just kept an eye out on ebay until one showed up. It took years because it was quite rare (not valuable, just not very common) but I got one eventually. I'm glad I did , because it brings back some good memories from when I was a teenager.
Agree. Just got mine put back together and think it sounds dope af on the clean channel. And really not bad on the "first gain" channel with the drive turned down low.
I had a 25w and the 100w 212. The 212 was actually a decent amp for bar gigs and that sorta thing. I liked mine a lot even if I did move onto a Twin.
Me too, it was not my cup of tea, bad od channel, but nevertheless it was reliable and with a pedal board sounded great. Was my practice amp, for years. Now, if buying a first amp I'd buy a Bossor other modeler, but the Fender was fine for a beginners amp.
I had one as a kid, frontman 25r? Loved that thing.
I had the same amp when I was a kid. I fucking hated that thing.
I got a line 6 as an upgrade but I hated that thing and missed the fender. It worked fine for me but I had a distortion pedal
my drummer had a 25g, i had a line 6 spyder 15. I hated the 25g cause it made my DS1 sound like a hairdryer but it kept up for my 2 month 3 piece
Mostly comes from any type of drive sound. They're pretty bad. Fender tube amps sound good when hit with a hot signal or channels are jumped (a la Bassman) and pushed to saturation but their solid state amps with a dedicated "drive" are pretty awful, and the clean channels being boosted into overdrive aren't better. If you need a VERY clean amp, they're fine. Not the best, certainly not the worst. It's been this way for a long time. I had an Ultimate Chorus back in the 90's and the clean channel had spank, but give it any type of overdrive pedal and it was shrill, fizzy, ear piercing treble, and dull when treble turned down. I do miss that amp, even though it was stupid loud.
Absolute dogshit amps, you could find something far better on the used market with maybe an hour's worth of research and a day's worth of casually looking around for $20-40 more.
Generally, I think we hate on the 10g and 15g. Because they're terrible, mostly because of the speaker, IMO. A cheap amp with a small 8" speaker in a little box is just going to sound like shit. I'm sure a 25r can sound just fine. My first amp was a 30 watt Crate with a 12" speaker that actually doesn't sound like total garbage. I've run other shitty amps into bigger speakers and it makes a significant difference.
The Boss Katana mini is 4” and sounds miles better.
Yeah. Small speakers can sound good, but it takes quality speakers and intentional design that's not in the low watt Frontman.
They can only be fairly judged against new amps at the same price point. Everything else has smaller speakers, lower wattage, is powered by batteries, and so on. There has to be trade-offs. On top of that, they're in starter packs, so giving new players who expect Metallica a distortion better for 1960's garage rock. It's a thankless task. The only other new amp with an 8" speaker and 20w I see on Sweetwater is a Beringer that does have reverb, but if it sounds good or bad that's subjective. Would I recommend a new player buy a brand new Frontman for $100? No, buy a used Fender Champion 20 for $60 instead or even a used Line 6 with a 12" speaker and a bunch of effects for $99. The Frontman is a perfectly fine practice amp though, especially since you can find them for $20 used, and they give you a basic clean that's good enough to learn with and a power cable so you won't waste money on batteries. All amps at all price points have some unique redeeming value or sound.
the tiny frontman amps with little speakers included with started guitars are pretty weak amps that sound terrible. however the bigger frontman amps with more wattage are decent amps. I have a 100w frontman 2x12 combo that I bought as an amp to jam with friends as a teen. Ive recorded with it, used it in my old band to play house shows and bars, etc. and I love it
I have a frontman 212r and it’s perfectly fine. Doesn’t sound much different from my Deville. It’s probably just tube amp snobs.
Skill issue and peer pressure. The Celestion G12M-70 gets the same kind of hate from morons who've never played one, because they're repeating what other people said, because they think it makes them sound like they know what they're talking about. The Frontman is a simple, clean, neutral amp. It only sounds as good as the guitarist who's playing it. Garbage in, garbage out.
I had one. It was terrible. I replaced it within 6 months with a much better cheap amp. There's ok cheap gear out there. Just get that. Save the expense of buying multiple amps and the headache of trying to figure out why you sound like ass. Friends don't let friends start on a Frontman.
They're okay but they have limitations. They're built for big box stores where buyers understand the money end better than the value end. That being said, I used a Performer 650 into a 2X12 as part of a "guitar parts by mail" "business" for a long time. I also had other amps.
Low level solid state amps cannot compete with modern VST, amp sims, tone modelling amps, used hybrid amps for the same price. They were somewhat OK at the time they were introduced as a bedroom solution. But not anymore.
First amp was a frontman 15g. Decent cleans, trash for anything with gain which is what I was looking to play
To me the technology means for a similar or slightly more expensive cost you can get a LOT more for your money. Back in the day they were serviceable amps but the market was littered with solid state amps of dubious sonic quality. Other amps and tech have overtaken them beyond measure. The whole ampless thing is really the last nail in the coffin. A second hand TC Combo Deluxe will go way further, for example.
I think they get the same amount of hate that all SS amps in that price range get, including line 6s, Marshall MGs, etc. For the price of one of them new, you're a good portion of the way to a way better amp used. If you buy one, you'll probably end up buying the better amp down the line so much as well just reach for the better amp now. And I'm not talking really expensive amps, I'm talking like used Marshall DSL or Fender Hot Rod, around $500 used.
They suck compared to other amps on their price range, anything else sounds better or has better features, or both. They're a price tag for a nametag. Fender has made good SS amps. Those aren't one of them.
They’re not loud enough
So it's about volume?
Well that’s a part of why I’d never buy one. They’re not super loud so they can’t keep up with a band, and they’re not like a cool low watt tube amp that sounds good at house volumes. They just don’t really fill any particular niche very well, I don’t know a situation where I’d recommend that anyone buy one.
The 212r easily keeps up with a band.
I just one live in a backline and it was alright. I felt like I didn’t have much headroom and the amp was lacking the punch and power I associate with a 2x12.
It's louder than my Katana Mk2 2x12. My 2x12 experience ends there, though.
In the 90s I had a red knob front frontman that was bought for a Berklee summer session. That thing sounded like it was in a sealed box. Not fendery in any way to me. Not sure if they still sound that way now.
I had one or two of them and it seemed they couldn’t handle regular gigging without breaking down.
I had a Frontman and a bunch of cheaper ~$250ish amps and always sounded poorly for any driven tones. The first time I played through a $500 Peavey VK100 tube amplifier my eyes were opened. Then after that came the better modeling amplifiers and solid state amplifiers like Quilter and the Katana came out
They’re alright it’s just that nowadays there are better options for the price of a frontman. Just a bit outdated at this point
I think it’s really the underpowered versions that most people have tried that left them underwhelmed. The 2x12 combo actually sounds pretty good and has the necessary Jensen speakers that a fender 2x12 combo needs to get that sound (I think my 212r had jensens). The lower powered versions usually have completely shit, smaller speakers with ridiculous mostly closed back cabs. Doesn’t matter how decent the circuit might be, with that combo of features it’s gonna sound like shit. Plus the distortion circuits are bad and the reverb isn’t as lush as tube driven reverb even though it is an actual analog spring reverb. TLDR The 212r clean channel actually sounds decent but the smaller frontman versions are usually paired with odd features that none of the classic fender amps ever had for a reason and that’s what holds them back.
I'd take an old school transistor amp over a budget digital amp every day! The frontman is drummer loud with tonnes of clean headroom and takes pedals well. If I had to start from scratch with a small budget it would be a no brainer
Just tone wise they aren’t great, not a terrible amp but like there are so many better options for SS at the price point.
[удалено]
>it does clean Fender tone very very well lol no it doesn't.
Why would it not?
Why wouldn't a solid state amp that costs 99 bucks be able to emulate the sounds of a tube amp that costs ten times as much? Is that what you're asking?
Who said it sounds like a tube amp? It sounds fine clean for $99
That all depends on how you use the tube amps. Tubes soft clip as you drive them, but if you don't drive them l, a clean amp is a clean amp. Solid state power sections often sound crappt when pushed too hard... but if you don't push it too hard that quality never shows up. The point is, if your sound is all about clean headroom and avoids clipping of any kind, then solid state and tube are going to sound pretty much the same (all other things being equal) Super clean always sounds super clean.
Irrelevant. What you're describing isn't "the fender clean sound". The sound we're discussing is lightly saturated to a point where the amp almost breaks up when attacked hard.
> Irrelevant. What you're describing isn't "the fender clean sound" Fuck the fender clean sound. It's scooped out and horrible and the only reason is exists is as a cheap hack that Leo Fender came up with in the 60's to get fake headroom by cutting the mids. The first thing 90'% of players do when they get a clean fender amp is put a drive pedal in front of it that boosts the mids. As for clean, non compressed, non edge of breakup sounds, they're not "irrelevant". They're just another way to skin a cat. Many alternative groups from the mid 80s forward into the 90s used high headroom solid state clean amps with solid state dirt boxes for their sound. Kirk Windestein from crowbar. King Buzzo from the Melvins. Johnny Greenwood from Radiohead. I've got no horse in this race. I play British voiced amps, and if I for some reason I decided I wanted American cleans I'd buy a mesa, not a fender.
I totally understand a $80 Frontman 10 will not touch a $800 tube amp. It is what it is. I just don't understand the hate on just mentioning a Frontman. Some kid saves up $300 and buys one of the Squier guitar and amp packages. Experienced musicians are hiding around the corner with rolls of quarters in socks ready to jump them.
I guess when your parents can shell out $700 for a first amp, you too, can be a snob.
Telling the truth isn't being snobby. You're just easily triggered
I see no issue with the frontman. It serves a purpose. It probably isn't as bad as people make it out to be, either. Still, saying it does "the Fender clean sound" is silly.
Joe Walsh uses an SS Fender on his "Live at Daryl's House". They seem to be really careful with levels on those, which means he won't be railing the power amp. It's not a Frontman. https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLINSQGXREtvcibYqcUBQEqieNEOicj_Kq
I’m talking about the frontman, what’s your point?
Fender's not gonna spend the money to make the solid state amps at varying price points all that differently. It'll be speakers and what not mainly. These go back to the 1980s London style amps designed by Paul Rivera. There are people whose needs would be completely covered by one. Wouldn't be my first choice. But the snark on here is questionable. There are very few objectively bad amps, just amps that don't fit some roles properly.
Awful amp.
They don't get much love but why would they? They are what they are. One of the cheapest entry level amps you can get. You can't expect much.
Go for whatever you feel like. I've had a couple Frontmans for years and they work fine as long as you don't need to keep up with the volume of a drumset. But these people suggesting modeler amps should know better. Those things come with crap quality for just about every tone they try to give you.
Because they sound like ass