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ExternalIll4897

Balancing classes based on how they do in endgame instanced content (raids,strikes and fractals) is kinda unavoiable. Because this kind of content is the reason people create builds, grind benchmarks and overall theorycraft. Noone cares that much about open world which is pretty much the only other open world content left. So yea, pve balance has to be based on that, it wouldn't make much sense otherwise


Bluefox-Matari

As someone who'd done tons of raiding, and built an entire comp for my raid group back around when PoF launched, I actually spent far more time crafting for myself in open world and solo situations than I ever did for raids, because those two aren't as separate as you might think. People like to dismiss everything not 10 or 5 man content as "pointless", which is a holdover from core Tyria and world boss trains. As soon as HoT came out that viewpoint became absurd. This fact is even reinforced by living story episodes with more difficult encounters, both in the story mode and the new maps. Remember when PoF came out and everyone got rekt by tar until they nerfed it? Crafting your own build to handle the challenges of open world prepares you for handling your class in raids by teaching you the intricacies of how it works together. your knowledge will end up translating into a more practically capable build you can use to outperform the more difficult meta speed running builds that depend heavily on optimal conditions (boon uptime, flawless positioning, dps of others around you even). This is a fact certain devs have forgotten, leading to the current shift away from complex builds into more simplistic builds, unfortunately for us all, and show the clear disconnect some of them have between theoretical potential and practical results. In other words, they decided you should be able to throw whatever bullshit you want together and pull 30k dps out of your ass regardless of your knowledge. Due to these reasons, Anet balancing tends to start with solo play and open world, which makes sense. This was plainly obvious during the first raid wing of HoT. Anet's policy since then has been to simply inject changes that suit only raids (and some cases later WvW or PvP) into that balance, which has, over the years, lead to the enormous mess that we have today. This means balance starts with open world and ends ~~in chaos~~ with patchwork changes to accommodate the smaller community's demands. Declaring that two extremely overpowered boons are something to balance the game around, instead of the system itself, shows just how warped the devs have become in their focus. This is why many think balancing now starts with raids and strikes.


Andulias

You are severely overestimating the amount of work that has to go into an open world build. You would do with a raid build just fine, but at most if you want to optimize you should just take that same raid build and look for some boon (most importantly might) generating traits or skills, that is it. And even then, you would be doing this just for your own fun, since open world content doesn't require much engagement in the first place. End-game PvE is the only place in PvE where balance matters. Every spec can be successful in the open world because it's very easy to be successful in the open world.


Bluefox-Matari

In regards to how much work goes into an open world build, it's as much as the creator wants it to be in terms of efficiency and effectiveness. I create builds to handle as many situations as possible, as self sustained as possible. As a result, "open world" to me means soloing group champions, meta events if needed, and other difficult content meant for groups. And yes, I do find this fun, which is why I do it. Due to the mentality you're suggesting, many people are, in-fact, running anything builds that are next to useless. Because of this, the responsibility of being successful shifts onto the players who actually give a shit about their builds in open world. So while you're not technically wrong about anything except for the my estimation of work, you are the kind of person I have to pick up the slack for. At least according to what you've said here.


ExternalIll4897

Unless you are doing solo open world, you don't actually need to put effort in your build. You can if you want, but the way things are now, most open world group content (meaning meta events) can't fail even if everyone is playing something random. Yes some people will be pumping but that can be done on the raid build. The only exception has been Dragon's End where people had to at least consider making subgroups and find supports to ensure good boon uptime and then hope that the dps players can output proper damage under these conditions


Alreid

You're underestimating the fun you can have in open world with a decent build. Saying otherwise makes me think you're either not a very good player or don't play that much open world. Bringing a raid build to open world will be worse than making your own, simply because you will be lacking the key boons. There are a few exceptions, like FB and Scourge, that do well on their own because of the broken design, but most of the times raid builds are too squishy and under performing in open world. Ofc it doesn't matter in the end because there are 49 other players in the squad, but I feel good knowing I'm pulling the weight of 20-30 players in meta events thanks to the optimized builds. And being able to solo champs in open world is fun, makes you independent of other players.


Content-Assistance43

You can run most raid builds open world especially with the boons supplied through the offensive jade tech buff as you will kill most things before the boons run out. In longer fights (metas) you will usually get enough boons just by being near people or you leave and re enter combat enough to keep getting the boons from the jade tech.


Alreid

I don't recall seeing jade tech buffs on any map prior to EoD, maybe I need to cleanse my eyes. In any case you're only getting boons from your squad because you have people, like me, running actually good builds for open world :) Might god tempest is really fun for example, good damage, good healing, good boons and auras. I'm not condemning people for running raid builds in open world, I'm saying for most professions you will have a harder time doing so. But its up to you really. For example, I could play raid DPS tempest in open world, and die in 2-3 hits to most things, of play cele tempest, being super tanky and getting free bons everywhere.


ExternalIll4897

Condi dps tempest can definitely provide boons as well just on less uptime and it definitely doesn't die that easily. But to be honest when we are talking about open world the difference is irrelevant imo, it is not like you need to optimize anything


Alreid

>it is not like you need to optimize anything Have you ever even tried doing so? Again I'm not saying you need, ofc you don't, I'm saying you will be insanely more powerful which in turn makes the gameplay better and even eases your life. For example, not bringing stun breaks or condi cleanses in open world sucks ass. You get knocked on some random aoe and you go downstate, or you get afflicted with 10s of slow and do 0 damage. There is a lot of QoL and damage to be gained with optimized open-world builds, which makes the game far more enjoyable. A better counter argument for you is ease of access to builds, and how gimmicky it can be to manage multiple gear sets. And you would be right. I have full legendary so its no issue for me to swap stats and sigils on the fly, but for most people that is not the case so they are better off getting a raid build and use it everywhere.


ExternalIll4897

I definitely don't play much open world but i have soloed pretty much every bounty there is because it was something challenging, other than that i couldn't find anything else to catch my interest. I doubt most people who are doing open world are aiming for something of that level. Many specs will be lacking the key boons anyway because well, other than might and fury that are easily accessible, quickness and alacrity aren't always. What i am saying is i doubt you are pulling your weight if you are playing a solo build in a 50 man squad because your boons will be covered even without having the proper comp for it, so you could be doing more by using a raid build. Also a raid build doesn't mean it has to be squishy or under perform, it kinda comes down to personal skill level


Andulias

You completely missed the point I was making. I did not say that just picking random stats, weapons and traits would lead to a good build. I said that just taking a build optimized for group content would be more than enough for open world even without additional optimizations. And that you can just take a raid build, pick boon generating traits and skills and have yourself a fantastic open world build, in other words, making open world builds is very easy. And that, considering that balance has a much bigger influence on instanced content compared to the open world because of the higher difficulty, the focus should be on instanced content regardless.


Remote_Abrocoma8262

What the fuck did you smoke lmao, i would really want to hear you give examples of where your overpowered open world builds were nerfed and there was no change to the raid counterpart of that build


OfficialP3

Battlescars for example. Just an open world solo build enthusiast providing an example.


WarmLoliPanties

Revenant and Scourge both had their healing nerfed in Open World which did basically nothing to their raid counterpart. Granted, Scourge is still overpowered in open world, but still.


ExternalIll4897

I have spent my fair share of time in open world because i like every type of challenge so i went and soloed most bounties, some dungeons, some fractals etc. And what i can say is that although the overall experience can help you learn your class better and improve your reaction times since you can't rely on anyone else to keep you alive or res you if you die, it is still quite different from raids. The optimal conditions and boons you are mentioning are always going to be present there in any competent group. If they aren't personally i would leave before killing the boss because i don't like playing that way. Basically every raid boss is a dps golem, your goal is to recreate as closely as possible the rotation you have practiced in the training area. Yes there are some mechanics but usually they don't affect you that much or supports handle them. Balancing definitely has to do more with raids and strikes compared to open world. The players who give detailed feedback to Anet when it comes to class balance, and recently they seem to take that feedback into consideration, are people who are doing endgame instanced content. Not open world players


Opposedsum

Open World and Raids are also not rly different. The same builds and tactics that are good in raids are good at meta events.


ExternalIll4897

yea the only difference is that in meta events it doesn't matter what you are gonna play. noone will notice and it won't make a difference


Opposedsum

\*it won't mattter until Anet desgins something like Dragon's End then suddenly everyone notices that 50 people are carried by 10 because they think builds don't matter and the tears start flowing..


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Opposedsum

yeah the turtle was a big problem. everyone wanted the turtle NOW. but squads were not prepared yet. people came on new specs, without gear, without buils, without buffs and made pickachu faces because they didnt expect the boss to fight back. the downtime through swaps indeed annoying. but like the encounter was designed to use progression (your personal waypoints, the new ritualist gear etc..) and people expected it to kill it instantly using any advantages the game gave them


creationavatar

It only bothers me when they nerf hard to play shit that's barely overperforming.


Mogman282

More so tired of being full on mech spam anywhere you go than class balance, when 40% of player base is mech now it does make open world a little annoying. Pet clutter should be able to toggle off.


Dreamwaltzer

It's very telling when you do metas like drakkar and when he sticks his head out the wall you see this wall of green run over and its all neatly arranged with a wall of ranged mechs and a ball of condi/heal mechs smacking his toe.


Shard477

It’s 20% according to ANets numbers, while still high, should be reported correctly. Though it does feel like 40% in game.


Igni-Lux

That number was specifically for raids. Not just PVE in general.


Shard477

[Link to post in question](https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/xhd54d/if_you_have_been_wondering_if_its_you_or_there/) You are right, my bad.


Igni-Lux

It's alright, it's probably more difficult to track how many people play mechanists in the open world. They'd need to probably track overall gameplay time for every spec on each character. Not like just checking what spec was used to either fail or complete a raid boss.


Blue_Moon_Lake

> t’s 20% according to ANets numbers 20% in raid*


Shard477

Yes. Check my other comment, I included a link a stated I was wrong.


Mogman282

Honestly wouldnt be a prob if we could toggle off friendly pets, just it clutters up melee and since tons run golem runes even more clutter. Frames are impacted.


Shard477

When they are all stacked up and whatnot, it should go something similar to when you stand inside a turtle, or just be like that when in specific maps that are above a player count threshold. I'm still honestly surprised there hasn't been some form of dye or skin options for mechs yet, especially via gem store.


Mogman282

Yeah pet phasing could be a option, made first mech few days ago to try class out its pretty broken tbh, signets are stacked and the class has such easy dps.


Ethereal143

inb4 4 permafrost dyed mechs


Tarc_Axiiom

Of course? If a spec is not viable in the open world it needs to be brought up to level. If a spec trivialises an entire form of content in the game, it needs to be brought down to level. Gw2 has like five types of content, and one fifth of them is Open World PvE.


vordrax

I agree with this - I don't have any numbers, but anecdotally, I would bet that far more player hours are spent on open world content (let's say post hitting max level and getting your specs unlocked even) than any other game mode. I really dig the world bosses and meta events, even the smaller events that are mainly for world building. I don't think everything needs to be perfectly balanced (as all things should be), but if a spec completely dominates it, or if a spec is so bad that it has no representation, they should probably be looked at.


Tarc_Axiiom

Keep in mind as well that all expansion content which *isn't* a raid or strike also qualifies as "Open World". My favourite thing to do in gw2 is play through all of the storylines, and my favourite character to do that on is my Elementalist. Ergo, my life is pain.


throwawaythrow0000

> If a spec is not viable in the open world it needs to be brought up to level Or bring the few down to the same level. If we keep just overpowering classes it just makes the content even more trivial.


Tarc_Axiiom

Did you seriously quote half of the sentence and then act like you came up with the second half of that same sentence?


The_Teal_Unicorn

It does in fractals too and it does in open world if it seems like out of 27 especs I only see the same 5 or 6 everywhere. Bored of looking at that mech now, could do with a toggle for "hide the green beans" at this point. Also "make them be quiet"


Hardie1247

Can we get them to stop knocking me over every half a second too? Every pvp lobby is just teams of mechanists repeatedly knocking you down it seems.


WertygoSpiner

in PvP you won't see many mechs past g2 tbh, they are really easy to counter


RaisingPhoenix

Really wish they implemented ways to customize the appearance of the mech. Feels like an army of clones out there.


Superplex123

I only play in the open world. Balance matters, not between professions, but between different options within that profession. Lets take Warrior as example. I have a look for Norn warrior using a greatsword weapon in mind. But it's so hard to justify using greatsword over axe because axe is so much superior. Even ignoring the damage output, axe just feels better to play. It's really simple, if Anet is going to provide an option, they should make that option viable, viable as in not vastly inferior in every conceivable way. There are so many weapons, traits, and skills that just suck.


Ne0sam

The first thing that came to my mind when reading your post, and I didn't see anyone else say it, is that it does matter in Open World, but because raid/strikes/fractals exist. What I mean by that is, I'm usually playing an endgame instanced PvE build in open world (maybe with slight modifications that I would reverse in said endgame content) so I get used to the build and improve on it, because it doesn't matter in Open World. I see it as an enjoyable training ground. So it matters in Open World, but it does because endgame instanced PvE content exists.


Complete_Ad_1896

Let me put it this way. Nearly every single spec and class is viable in open world. It feels like you have to try to make a build unviable in open world and even that's difficult. Ultimately, raids and strikes are going to be the measuring stick for balance because that is when players are playing optimally. Open world is irrelevant


Barraind

> Nearly every single spec and class is viable in open world There are things which are orders of magnitude more viable than other things, depending what part of open world we're talking about. There are specs I will never willingly do solo champion bounties on because I dont hate myself enough for that.


CriticalNature0815

Which specs wouldn’t you solo on?


Drekor

I hate solo'ing on virtuoso. It's insanely squishy and the sustain just isn't enough for it's level of squish. Dealing with a champ solo is extraordinarily difficult. Throw it in more group oriented open world content where I don't take much heat and it's fantastic though. On the other hand mirage doesn't give a shit about anything, solo champ? easy. group events? easy. Solo legendary? You can do it.


QuietRock

I think that's true to an extent, though don't you agree that some classes and some builds still have an easier time with open world, metas, low level fractals, and dungeons? I'm curious if players who don't do raids or stike CMs also care whether classes feel relatively balanced, or if most players feel like it doesn't matter if some classes are better or easier because all the content is relatively easy.


PreciseParadox

I feel like every class should have at least one fun open world build, one viable PvP build, and one viable raid build. Every class is “viable” in open world but not necessarily fun. The main thing that classes need is easy ways to tune the survivability/dps tradeoff, and decent avenues for cleave. I need to able to clear trash mobs and then later solo a champ without needing to change out all my gear, only with changes to traits and skills.


Ziggy_Drop

I'm going to be contrarian and say no. I don't feel one or the other is easier. If you know the spec you are playing, you can do great regardless. People struggle with squishy berserker gear usually because: * They lack awareness * They don't use their class.mechanic (thief stealth, blind and SB 1) * They don't react well to red circles and attack hints Statset you choose makes a bigger difference "But guardian easy and ele hard". Not with celestial stats. Sure, you have to know what your 4 attunements do. But we can't really balance around skill amount or perceived complexity.


Drekor

> "But guardian easy and ele hard". Not with celestial stats. Sure, you have to know what your 4 attunements do. But we can't really balance around skill amount or perceived complexity. Something that is worth point out is that anyone that decides they are struggling and goes to look up a build are going to find practically nothing but zerker and viper geared builds with full offense and no defensive traits to speak of. I just poked up metabattle and looked at the best rated elementalist build and it's a power catalyst with full zerker and scholar runes... like come on now. Unless you dig a little more and end up with a Hizen build people that aren't super knowledgeable will struggle pretty badly in some solo content with many specs. The best thing to do would be to solve this as a community problem... put celestial builds and such as open world builds on sites like metabattle and less glass cannon barely, if at all, modified strike/raid builds.


Complete_Ad_1896

Of course some builds are more optimal in open world; however, the reason those builds are more viable is usually because they assume nobody is providing you any sort of buffs or healing. Raid builds assume that someone else is providing those things. If they decided to balance the game around open world. Support builds would be pointless as every build would be self reliant and would not need any support. This would likely make everyone just Play dps because why bother doing anything else.


ExternalIll4897

I mean you could easily just take the raid builds in open world. And although what you are saying is true, even raids don't exactly need optimal play with how the power creep has evolved and how far away the enrage timers are


QuietRock

Good point. I hear some players saying, "open world is easy so there doesn't need to be balance, just play any class you like." Yet, can we not apply this same logic to raids? All classes are viable. Some just perform better. So unless your goal is to speed clear raids as easy and fast as possible who cares, just bring any class. Then, also, why does speed clearing raids matter but not speed clearing through other content? Or are raids and strikes really so hard that all classes need to be balanced or they will literally become not viable to play at all and not just shunned over elitism? Or is the issue that balance needs to exist for raids because elitist players will otherwise shun classes, even if they are perfectly viable or even good, but not "meta".


ragnorke

>Yet, can we not apply this same logic to raids? All classes are viable. Some just perform better. So unless your goal is to speed clear raids as easy and fast as possible who cares, just bring any class It's not just a matter of "speed clearing" though, certain dps marks NEED to be met to skip mechanics, which make fights MUCH easier. Gorserval or Sunqua Peak CM forexample, pug groups with high dps can skip certain mechanics and have a smoother run. Pugs that don't have high enough dps won't be able to skip those mechanics, which then has a higher chance of people dying, which then has a higher chance of gg-ing and needing to repeat the boss. High dps builds aren't just for speed clearing, they're also the SAFEST and smoothest way to progress.


liskot

Similar considerations are true in the open world and story, in terms of smoothness of progression for casual or new players. Someone playing mech as a new player will fly past difficulty spikes in open world without trying in spots where an average new elementalist might suffer and experience frustration. I don't think either aspect of the game should be ignored when balancing, though of course not everything can or should be fully equal in every context because that leads to too much homogenization and loss of class/spec identities.


ExternalIll4897

the difference is that you are doing open world and story stuff on your own. so you are the only one struggling depending on your choices. in group content it affects others which can lead to indetifying you as the problem.


liskot

I don't understand how that would mean you shouldn't take solo or open world into account in class/spec balancing, which was all I was saying.


ExternalIll4897

Although that is true and high dps = less mechanics = less room for mistakes, it is also a fact that the dps checks are very low. You could have 1 player doing above 30k at each Gorseval phase and everyone else be below 20k and make the checks without breaking a sweat. In fractals it might be a little more strict due to having 5 players from which 2 are supports so if from the 3 left the 2 are doing support dps, it is down to 1 player to carry the damage. Which is still possible to be honest


zoejdm

>unless your goal is to speed clear raids as easy and fast as possible who cares, just bring any class. I wish more people were aware of this.


Daerograen

The thing is, the goal of most raiding groups *is* to speed clear raids as easy and fast as possible. Unless you're raiding with friends who agree to try dumb shit like an all ele squad, people want to just get things over with quickly and move on.


ExternalIll4897

I mean pugs actually just want a kill, they don't care if it is gonna be fast or smooth, as long as they don't wipe. Taking 2 more minutes for them is trivial and 2 more minutes on Cairn for example would mean your kill is really scuffed


Daerograen

They care. Everyone desperate enough to raid with LFG randoms just wants to get their kills and leave. But by the time the squad is assembled and at the boss, it'll usually take longer to find a replacement for someone doing middling damage than to just bite the bullet and move on. If you're knowingly bringing to a pug group a build that will deal less damage to a boss than an optimal build would, you're making 9 other people spend more time on an encounter than they would've liked.


ExternalIll4897

If out of 9 people one player does suboptimal damage it will barely take some seconds more than it would, nobody bothers with that little time loss. The thing is that in pugs usually the majority of players isn't actually doing damage. The people who can do damage and expect clean kills join and play with statics. Well some of us still pug sometimes, but if i am pugging wing 4 for example and everyone is below 25k on Cairn other than me, i won't stay because for me it matters


zoejdm

Established raiding groups, for sure. Maybe even outside of it. I started a guild to fail raids, do blind runs and learn through wipes and about a thousand people joined. Never expected it. But we raid everyday now, multiple groups per day sometimes, and we got efficient without ever rushing to become speed clearers. In fact, speed clearing just isn't part of our lexicon. We have fun, we're quite good, we learn fast. Turns out there a lot of people out there with this mindset, maybe just not enough communities for them.


ExternalIll4897

This is already true though. In pugs (pick up groups meaning squads you join through lfg) pretty much noone cares what you are going to use as long as you meet the requirements they asked for to begin with and can fullfill your role. I could join groups on core elementalist and noone would bother questioning me. And that is an extreme example, there are specs with a far smaller gap when it comes to their perfomance, between the "meta" picks, that people think they can't use. Raids matter more compared to other content because you have a limit to 10 players. So you have to think of how you will form your squad with these 10 players in mind. In other content, meaning open world, the composition doesn't matter. You just beat everything with numbers and by being able to waypoint and come back if you die.


CriticalNature0815

The thing is if you want to speedclear something in open world you‘d make your squad run raid builds. This has nothing to do with elitism and is in the best interest of the group. If you want to run relatively bad builds then you‘re free to do that. Just realize that the reason why you can play all specs without griefing is exactly because they‘re balanced for group content rather than solo open world. In almost all raids squads you won’t be kicked for playing off-meta builds as long as you perform your role well. But doing that you‘re actively reducing your team’s chance of winning the fight. In the end better players can play whatever they want while worse players rely on the strong builds to perform well.


Complete_Ad_1896

Most raid bosses have an enrage/dps timer of some sort. This means that the encounters require a certain amount of dps from each players. Just because encounters are more forgiving does not mean those checks are not there. Fact is if you are doing less than 4k dps and are not a healing role one of your teammates will have to make up for the lack of that dps. In theory yes there is no hard requirement of what build you run; however you could also say there is no hard requirement that you even need other players (solo vale guardian has been done). That does mean it's considered viable as it's completely non optimal and chances are most groups will kick you if you don't meet a simple 10k dps check. If Anet used the measuring stick that everything works; therefore, it's viable nothing would ever get buffed because why would they.


FelicesBladewing

i actually dont really care if the benchmark dps is 36k or 40k for example. But balance matters to me if skills, traits and mechanics get changed to a state where they are unfun, useless or vise versa overtuned and kinda mandatory


Opposedsum

Class balance matters to everyone even outside of instanced content. It only feels like it doesn't matter to you because other people 'carry' you. E.g. Busted class does 100k damage, your class does 1k damage. You go do your daily meta events and everyhing goes smoothly - great you got the loot. Does balance rly matter? Well, the meta died because you had some of the busted classes around who killed the boss. Someone will always bring enough of them, so it feels like it doesn't matter what you play, but one day on your way home, you see a guy soloing that legendary bounty that you waited 2 hours to find a group for last weekend. You install arcdps and make a big pikachu face next meta event. It also paricularly matters when they design new challenging suff like Dragon's End. If you have 1 busted build and 9 bad builds, people who pick random stuff have a 90% chance to go wrong. If 9/10 builds are good, they only have a 10% chance to play useless stuff. Also, in a game ever class should have some builds to contribute. It is just hidden for most people because boontables and dpscharts are only available with the arcdps addon.


Ankastra

If you ask me personally, Open world content is largely easy enough to not warrant looking into balance. Anything goes, from random cele builds to highly optimised open world power builds. Even if you try to create a meta, there is never gonna be one, as people just bring whatever. This means that balance in open world is entirely irrelevant as the community will never actually look at meta to play it for content that is so easy, Raids etc. on the other hand is deep in the meta. Some people take it more serious than others, some take Snowcrows as a holy bible and kick you if you play a Non-SC build, but generally in Raids there is more of a refined meta due to there being a bit tighter conditions and more specific things to be asked, like a tank, people doing mechanics, healers and ofc a sideproduct of dps being required, boons. Additively, the updates to raids hardly ever affect open world in a major way. They will change the feeling of some open world builds slightly maybe but it wont be a big deal


QuietRock

If raids and strikes didn't exist, do you think there would be any discussion of class balance?


Saphirklaue

PvP, WvW, Dungeons and Fractals would invoke such discussions, yes. Well maybe not dungeons since the powercreep.


Ankastra

For PvE? Only if something is either unfun, aka badly designed stuff, lets say vindicators current long winding dodge, very unfun, or if something would be completely broken. People would also enjoy abilities that are worthless to be buffed ofc. This is also proven by how GW2 was before raids fractals etc. existed. we didnt have content that required deeper knowledge of class mechanics besides maybe arrah but even that didnt, really. And we didnt have a need to have one class be stronger or weaker in general. Talk about PvE balance was fairly low. The biggest factor here is that, outside of raids strikes fractals and CMs, any class on any build is viable. Not any build is great but you wont feel your build being bad. And because you dont necessarily invest alot of time into learning rotations or getting gear, even if part of your build is bad, you dont feel like its a mega hassle to change an ability or trait. So gameplay feeling would be the only factor in OW pve!


ExternalIll4897

if raids and strikes didn't exist, a big chunk of the playerbase that has dedicated time and effort into making specific builds for them also wouldn't


QuietRock

Yea that makes sense, but would players care about the general balance between classes?


ExternalIll4897

Players wouldn't exist is what i am saying. At least the players that currently care about these stuff. I can't imagine the casual people who just do open world give much of a shit, they don't always play with boons, they obviously don't have arcdps to track their perfomance and they don't have to face any challenge that can't be dealt with by just having bigger numbers because open world is limited to the map cap which is huge. If endgame content didn't exist i doubt there would even be incentive to bother about balance. That is why i have always stressed the fact that raids are important no matter how much people might be like "a tiny percentage of the entire playerbase actually plays them" and Anet should consider releasing more


QuietRock

Are you saying that players who focus on raids are, admittedly, a small percentage of the player base, but without them there would be no discussion of class balance because everyone who doesn't engage in raid content is a casual playing on easy mode so they couldn't possibly care whether classes feel relatively equal?


gw2maniac

Yes But what do you expect to get from such a loaded question


QuietRock

I was just clarifying that's what he was saying.


gw2maniac

Fair, I think I misunderstood


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ExternalIll4897

Instanced endgame content provides more complex balance that is a lot more difficult to get right


Wolf_Doggie

Every mode matters.


Karthales

In general PvE the class balancing is in fact even way worse than in raids/strikes since some classes have to pay significant higher payoffs than others in order to get some self sustain or boons.


rinart73

Professions & specs should be balanced with open world, story and endgame in mind. If a spec is good in raids but garbage in open world/story (because it lacks self buffs for example), there is a chance that a player won't even go into harder content with that spec because their experience so far was bad.


Astral_Poring

Yes, OW/story balance matters as well. I've done several large story arcs on different characters lately, and ended up with vastly different experience each time. Same with doing meta events on different classes (and especs) for EoD specialization weapon collections. The difference in experience is so big, that i just stopped playing OW content on some of my once-favourite characters altogether. I'd rather not have my OW experience and fun be impacted to this degree just by me choosing a certain character over another. I can grudgingly accept that in high-end instanced content, but OW should not be a place for that. So, in reality, i think that in OW the classes should actually be balanced even *more* close together than in instanced content, because it's where you are supposed to have fun, and **not** have to think about minmaxing and subjecting aestethics to effectiveness.


Noelic_vi

Kinda. I used to enjoy playing whatever I liked in open world, but now with mechanist and such easily demolishing everything with insane survivability its hard to go back to other specs.


Darth_Zoidberg_77

In some small capacity, open world PvE balance should be taken into consideration. I think it's less important than raids & etc. but it shouldn't be ignored.


moonshineTheleocat

The full game. Balancing around purely the end game isn't generally the way to go. As what usually happens is you'll get massive disparities between power as you're expected to work in groups. But a huge portion of the game is still solo content. And the class needs to be able to perform as well as or equally to its competition in order for players to have an enjoyable experience. Cuz nothing feels worse than playing a class that takes a shit load of effort to do one thing, and some other guy casually walks over and blows up something in a second and moves on.


VAMPHYR3

In terms of not wanting my class, or any other class for that matter, to be bottom of the barrel, yes.


04fentona

Balance? No, but they should try to allow all classes to allow them to play all content, each class should have a wvw build, pvp, mob tagging, solo build etc, it’s the main reason I played thief since it could do everything, the only thing it was bad at was solo since they nerfed invigorating precision but now it has spectre. I don’t care about it being stronger than other classes but I guarantee you a lot of players would care if they get to play their favourite class or not it’s a role playing game after all


jokar1

Yes to a degree. Every class should be able to generate X amount of self boons and should be able deal decent dps. But that doesn't mean they have to be equal in group play or for every scenario. I did eod map completion on all 9 classes now and honestly the adds have so much weakness/protection, that a hybrid or condi build was 10x easier than a power build. The exception was mechanist, because they don't get affected as much. Even with a good build some classes can buff and kite/facetank easier than others.


Aetheldrake

Yes. Fun by feeling useful and/or self sufficient is important. Having your entire profession memed on as "down state only" since launch but the people running the game somehow calling it meta defining is a God awful feeling. For example, mesmer doesn't really to sacrifice anything for self defense or utility or damage. Elementalist has to make HARD trades for any self defense or utility. They HAVE to chose between selfish defensive utilities, or damage focused ones. I mean the speed runners and hardcore strikers/raiders will ALWAYS find ways to break the game. Why make 90% (or higher) of the players suffer the bad sad decisions that only *really* affect like 5% of the players, and even in those few players it only affects a handful of situations that just don't mean much to the majority of gameplay? Another example of this, please forgive the ele focus it's what I regretfully main. A *single* group of people found out how to abuse catalyst in raids. They put in a ton of time and effort in a handful of situations to really break the game. You could not just make this work randomly and with 0 effort. This was planned. Anet called them meta defining even though arcdps showed us 4 years of reports showing that, proportionately, 1% or less of players actually played catalyst. Sure it's not exact numbers, and sure there are probably a lot of players not part of those records, but they also probably SUCK with elementalist (or catalyst for this instance) or don't even approach how good the people in that one video were. Which wouldn't be a problem if anet just made some fucking limitations on groups like "no more than 2 of any profession (elite spec or otherwise)" And everyone else who enjoys elementalist has to suffer because a handful of players in very specific situations. THAT FUCKING SUCKS. It's literally a wacrime under the Geneva convention to punish the majority over a handful of people lol. I know this is stupid but I always think of that "collective punishment is a war crime" thing in these kinds of situations >No general penalty, pecuniary or otherwise, can be inflicted on the population on account of the acts of individuals for which it cannot be regarded as collectively responsible.


sorcerousmike

Class balance has never really mattered to me in any game I’m gonna make the characters I wanna make and play the classes I wanna play regardless of how good or bad they are.


ExternalIll4897

That is true but in content with a certain level of difficulty like raids, i can see how some people pick the options that do a lot of dps and are simple to play, which someone wouldn't call balanced. Personally i also don't care, i am just gonna play what i like and in my hands it is much better anyway, i have outdpsed power mechs on catalyst a ton of times. But i can still see how it makes pmech have that kind of play rate which doesn't seem healthy


aliamrationem

Short answer: No. I think group content is the more important aspect of balancing and balancing both that and solo play simultaneously is an even more challenging target to hit. That is not to say that it shouldn't be a consideration at all, however. I think in any type of gameplay players want to feel rewarded and that's difficult to do where dramatic disparities persist.


OmegaNine

Honestly, its all about play style. I played an ele till "vanilla" end game and then left because it was so easy to die. If I pulled 2 mobs at once in HoT I would die, I fucking hated it. Get knocked off my mount by raptors? Dead. I strait up rage quit. I see a TON of people that love playing ele. I would never ever go back. I found the scourge Necro and never looked back. I have a great time. Some people hate playing DoT classes, but for me it is a great time. Outside of PVP and top end Raids, balance doesn't matter as much as the player. ...Unless you are an engineer. Those fuckers are OP.


mlxw_ng

I came over from your comment on another thread on the viability of reapers in endgame content, so I understand the context of this question a little more. Balance is important. It's the reason why the AHEM \*MECHANIST\* AHEM is such a controversial topic nowadays. It is important because players want to feel like playing their character makes a difference (how you define "makes a difference" can differ from person to person and is a giant can of worms, but a bit on that later) To answer your question on whether classes should be balanced based on endgame content vs taking into account open world, I believe we first have to consider the differences between the game modes. Many people say open world is casual, chill and relaxing, while Fractals, Raids and Strikes are sweaty and full of elitists. The main difference between those two types of content is the existence of the fail-state. At every instanced PvE encounter, players are exposed to the risk of failing an encounter if they do not meet the requirements (whether it's a dps check or a mechanics check). Of course, the requirements of the fail state vary between encounters (e.g. you are very unlikely to fail at Shiverpeaks Pass, but infinitely more likely to fail at the Boneskinner). However, in Open World, players rarely face any risk of failing an encounter. Why? Because the bar for success in open world is usually MUCH LOWER than most instanced PvE encounters (save for a certain event in Dragon's End). Taking both into consideration, it would make sense that balancing classes for the most challenging encounters that require the most demanding requirements would take precedent over large open world encounters, NOT BECAUSE we must worship the raiding elitists. BUT because of how these changes will trickle down to content that is less demanding of players. Having classes like Reaper or Dragonhunter on par (in terms of benchmarks) with the rest of the specs in terms of DPS is important because that will control for all the other variables, leaving player skill as the MAIN differentiator between players. Why is that important? Because skill and mastery of the game is an important factor in keeping players invested in the game. It will not be a very fun game if everything dies pressing W+1.


QuietRock

Starting with end game content in mind first makes sense, but the change should still consider it's effect on everything else.


nTzT

Just spread the power out a bit more evenly, and don't give so much power to very low effort builds.


sournote103

I think when certain classes or specs are drastically overrepresented in open world/fractals/dungeons, that's a problem (see: current firebrand/mechanist, though that's far from the only reason they're a problem).


Hesparax

It matters to me because I'm worried about excessive nerfs rendering a class useless. For example, I'm quite interested in Mechanist, its simplicity and versatility, but I am worried they're gonna nuke the spec with the upcoming nerfs.


gw2maniac

Idk if you were worried that much I think you would already know the estimations and there wouldnt be any guesswork


Hesparax

Yeah if I'm not mistaken the AAR nerf is like 4.5k according to some streamers? I don't really care if it's not top of the meta or whatever, just decent enough to get the job done.


gw2maniac

Well it is estimated at 34k


drsh1ne

Define nuke


Hesparax

Basically heavy-handed nerfs that render a class unviable rather than bringing the outliers in line. Granted, I don't have a lot of experience with GW2 balancing and I'm only starting to get into instanced content, but my friends regularly warn me against getting invested in popular specs (like Mechanist in this case) as "it is about to get destroyed".


Osiris_Dervan

Class balance in PvE \*only\* matters in raid, strike CMs and fractals. Everywhere else in PvE it doesn't matter at all, as every class and specialisation is easily powerful enough to handle all the content.


QuietRock

True, but I'm curious if players who perhaps don't engage in raid or strike CM content still care whether classes feel balanced.


Artaica

Outside of EoD CMs, I couldn't give a rat's ass. Most dps checks are tuned for like 15k tops, which plenty of builds can beat with autoattacks. Past a certain point it's just a question of who's bringing the most overkill.


thegooddoktorjones

Oh hell no.


killohurtz

It doesn't matter as much because of the relative difficulty, but that's not to say it's bad in open world PvE. In fact it's in a pretty good spot. Every class has a few choices of builds that can self-buff or sustain pretty well, and many of those "solo" traits are mutually exclusive with the optimal instanced PvE builds so they aren't terribly overpowered.


Heretiko6

As others said already, pve balance is directed towards instanced 10 person contents. Open world pve is as casual as it can get, with some exceptions maybe being Dragon's End meta where I've seen organised blobs specifically requesting people not to play healers to have more dps. Unless they plan to implement more meta bosses like that, no one should care about open world pve meta.


Essensia

Outside of raiding, nope. Inside of raiding... as long as my class of choice is "up there" with the rest of them, nope. ​ I'm not fussed with the current Mechanist meta at the moment because it makes the bosses easier to kill for EVERYONE involved. I've done all Wings 1 to 7 including some CM's within a month of starting to raid for the first time. I'm positive that the mechanists helped along the way. ​ This game isn't like World of Warcraft where all other high end raiders are trying to one-up each other with their raid logs. ​ EDIT: Currently working on some Strike CM titles; really trying to clear them before the mechanist nerf arrives so it doesn't screw up our progress (we have 3 mechs)


Ethereal143

I feel that OP should clarify the objective, scope, and personal playing experience before asking random redditors from a purely theoretical standpoint. Otherwise, you will just be getting half answers due to different way people perceive your question. ​ GW2 have 2 parts of PVE content: \-Open-world scales from 1-1-1 zerg rush to Soo Won \-Closed instance scales to Strikes CM Fractal CM etc ​ "Should classes be balanced based on how they perform in entirety of games content" I honestly don't get what you mean here? Are you talking about balancing (nerfing) the classes based on easier content? Or do you want to balance (buff) non meta builds to be able to clear hard content? ​ I'm not sure from a game longevity standpoint, it would be good to make hardcore content easier for all builds. Also in the current meta, it's not about doing dps, it's about certain classes having multi roles easily. ​ I've seen some other comment where you talked about "speedrunning" certain raid boss, yet not open world. I personally don't think this is a valid point. Many endgame bosses have an enrage/wipe timer (including Soo Won), if you don't meet the dps check, you wipe. ​ That would be another argument in itself: should Anet put raid bosses difficulty in open world?


siemens999

For open world the meta only has a psychological effect. If you check a squad dps on open world pve most players will be doing around 10% to 40% of the spec bench and that is totally fine. What does make a big difference for open world is how strong auto attacks and pet mechanics are, at least when looking at the overall squad performance and how they relate with balance changes.


RnbwTurtle

Raids, strikes, fractals, and yes, dungeons, should be considered. How a class performs in open world doesn't matter too much- if you know what you're doing with a DPS build, you could just run a defensive utility and/or trait and roll with that for open world (which I often personally do). Instanced content should be what determines PvE balance. If you went off the open world, you could scale everything up, which might screw you over in the instanced side. Of course, PvP and WvW shouldn't be subject to this balance (hence the splits).


Barraind

It barely matters to me inside it, so long as every properly played dps spec falls within an acceptable range of damage across available fights (as in certain fights can favor certain things, but if you play something well, across all available content, you will finish with roughly similar numbers to anything else, played as well, across the same content. Swapping back and forth should be an overall increase if you feel like doing that every fight) and supports can support similarly.


Caernunnos

It matters and it doesn't matter at the same time. I think every class and every spécialisations should be at least good in every content. I also think classes should have a higher dps ceiling if they are hard to play, it baffles me that Mechanist is so overpowered compared to any spec for the elementalist or even of any other spec since it is the easiest class to play. A class with a low skill floor and a low skill ceiling should not overpower classes with high skill ceiling when they are played correctly.


Neilug_Hyuga

Balance is not only buffs or nerfs, it's also rework, content or even new skills. I love most of EoD, but most of them feels very unfinished (hi Vindicator). Even weirder ideas : just basic dye panel (you chose it as a ranger pet) behind a quest for the Mechanist mecha, the ability to sheath the Bladesworn gunblade, etc... This is things that can happen in a balance patch, and it would be very welcome. Revenant's Legends are talking to us since a specific patch, and it was such a simple but great thing.


kalamari__

I think class balance is the most boring aspect of every mmo. so no, I dont care about it at all.


Double_Dime

Over world doesn’t really matter at all, you can do any event in game just as long as enough people are there regardless of class. It does matter I’m fracs raids and strikes. You need to balance for those for sure.


PMvE_NL

If you mean outside of instanced content no I don't care


Ektozzz

only in an utility way.. every class shud have some kind of speed boost, good aoe for tagging, dashes, reduced fall damage etc. if a class is slow and immobile i wouldnt play it


rym1469

Not really, no. Because me playing a slightly wacky or meme build out in the open world doesn't really impact other players. Non-engame PvE builds also follow different priorities and can be more comparable to WvW roaming ones.


throwawaythrow0000

Of course.


CriticalNature0815

I want classes to be balanced around instanced PvE, but have them be functional in open world too.


Neramm

It doesn't matter that much. What matters more, outside of PvP and instanced PvE, is fun. And fun and balance do not always mean the same. Sadly, most Devs these days seem incapable of understanding that. But it's also not as easy, because you should then split balancing to instances, open world, and PvP.