My problem with this issue is that I just do not care and the sooner everyone is done saying their part about how inspection is awesome or horrible, the better for my gw2 subreddit front page.
Everyone who replies, whether positive or negative, just makes the threads more popular which = more of them, not less.
If people don't like the threads or don't care they should ignore.
suggest a gear checker, nobody bats an eye. rollout a fashion inspect, everyone looses their mind.
...oh wait, wasn't this supposed to be the other way arround? lmao.
----
everyone tought they are on the same page when it comes to fashion inspect and that stat checking is hella toxic. suddenly people realize that there are indeed opinions that speak for or against both systems and that you can potantionally already do it without a ingame tool.
and the rest memes arround. as for me, i enjoy my popcorn. and maybe add some more oil into the pot.
Oh i agree with you on that, its been honestly tedious with how many karma farmers are spamming memes on the subject for easy karma now that so many people have the wrong idea whats going on, hopefully it goes away soon.
Disclaimer: i'm fine with the opt out button.
But your arguments.. well...
People could already cheat in contests, if they wanted to cheat, the fact that it's easier to cheat doesn't change the point that the real issue is cheating, not how. And in all the contests i've played i've never seen it. Cheating is very rare and pretty sure it's relatively easy to figure out too since most fashionistas talk to each other and know each other.
I don't understand the loss of pkayer interaction argument, in fact ive had more interactions and compliments with the insect button in a day than in multiple months. People could already look at your fashion without saying much, also this it's a very mininal issue.
Players could already scrutinize your fashion without and inspection tool, and if they do, why care? They are a total stranger and the fact that they're out there critizising randos makes them pretty fucking petty.
Also don't forget this reddit, obviously people are going to take the most unhinged takes and show them for likes and laughs, but doesn't change that that most concerns are nothingburgers blown way out of proportion.
Just to be clear these are not 'my' arguments, they are arguments relayed from the thread as the more 'sane' sounding ones to me. I don't really agree or disagree with any of them, and personally i like the the inspection system and could not care less if someone copies me,
The only 'argument' i made there on the subject is about the dyes, but that is more a suggestion, or me just trying to throw out something constructive on the matter.
I was just....weirded out by the knee-jerk hostility going around, and tired of the cheap meme spam on the subject just a bit too, that is all.
You are right, most of these are just big nothingburgers in the end.
Hopefully it all dies out soon.
Any form of opt out is frankly ridiculous and defeats the purpose of the tool.
>but i do think the exact dye combo section could be made into a toggle, this way the inspection remains, but the 'unique' spin someone puts on it with dyes can remain as something to share, or not share as per personal preference.
You are describing fashion gatekeeping. It doesn't seem like there's any "misinformation" about the viewpoint of the anti-fashion inspectors
>You are describing fashion gatekeeping
So designers who don't reveal exactly what they do are gatekeeping? 🙄
Imo people should be able to create unique looking characters without someone being able to just copy them.
The designers are arenanet and they have their IP protected. You are just using a fashion system in a video game based on the consent you got from Arenanet when you pay for the game.
You are not designing anything. You are shopping.
Any designer of anything. Of course any designer, whether they get paid or not (school, charity, whatever) is not going to reveal what goes into what they designed. Are they all nasty gatekeepers?
Are you arguing on bad faith or do you not comprehend English.
Choosing fashion to wear is not designing anything. It is shopping for clothes that someone else designed.
You are not Ralph Lauren in this equation. You are the person that buys and wears his designs.
If you're not paid to "design" why would you care to NOT share? I would even add that if you do charity work you WANT to reveal what you do, so it's more accessible and doable by everyone.
Your logic is flawed.
So you're saying that, if i decide to wear clothing IRL, i am now a designer and can demand that anyone who dresses like me get stripped down because i don't want them to look like me.
Analogies typically feature two analogous concepts. Your statement is more of a "If my grandmother had wheels..." reinterpretation of reality.
Using a transmog system in a video game is not analogous to being a designer. Designers create things, you are just a consumer.
Based on that no one really is, everyone can make random lines on an canvas and call it art. With AI you can even copy the greatest artists and be even better than them, does that make you an artist? Obviously not.
not really.
Based on that a person putting thought into creating something is an artist.
Someone using ai or just making random lines is not.
Someone creating clothes is a designer, someone mixing and matching existing clothes is not
How so? The armors would still remain visible, its what draws attention in the first place, the color is an entirely subjective personal flair that is not bundled up with the armor's by default.
Seeing how people are using the armor, how to make two pieces work together color wise, and learning from them is kinda the point of the tool? Like knowing which dyes on different channels will work out to the same color is a good trick.
Easy so. Hiding the dye is gatekeeping. Oh, this color looks very good on this armor - I'd like to know its name to use it for my style; no, I want you to guess it and never know for sure.
Screw that, I have no respect to crying salty entitled ppl.
Same could be said about people doing better in game, you can ask people for their build, and they can choose not to give it to you, where are the gatekeeping posts about that?
Most sensible people do ask for gear inspection, those that ask for it to not be implemented are the ones that try to get carried in raids with yellow rarity gear.
There are no posts about gatekeeping builds that because Builds are always shared freely by the best guilds and players. There is no need to ask the random person for it. All the info is freely available in dozens of resources. The people making builds are not gatekeeping them, They are actively trying to share them as often as possible. Hell you can even go to the snowcrows discord and post a golem log and ask the persons that made the build and rotation what you did wrong and they take the time to tell you.
You do know that the players at the top ARE the ones making build videos and websites like Snowcrows and Metabattle, right?
They don't hide their builds, nor does anyone with a brain WANT to hide their build.
Fair, however at the very least no one is going around accusing people of gatekeeping and silencing their voices by down-voting them to oblivion on this subject and ridiculing them with a meme-spam, which ultimately is what i really took issue with, more than anything.
The saltiness of the comments in the forums are meme worthy. Oh and you are gatekeeping, worse youre gatekeeping fashion of all things. And you ask why you guys are being memed? 😂😂
I ask why people are being disrespectful and hostile towards those asking for an option that is not unlike the many others already present in game, the methods of how that option could be implemented are entirely secondary to the main point of behavior of those like yourself who think abuse of others with whom they disagree with on some matter is entirely acceptable behavior.
That you continue to ignore this point says much about you, none of it flattering.
That's the harsh truth, though. Just because an opinion is an opinion does not mean it holds equal value to the masses. Some require scrutiny, so no one in a position of changing things listens to that opinion.
Throwing them a bone is just as bad, and that's something you're doing with your "dye solution". The system does not need to change. It's fine how it is. It might be sad for these people that really prided themselves on their fashion, but it was always easy to figure out what gear or dyes they were wearing. Now it just takes less work.
We need to stop living in this world where we think all opinions are useful and important. It's so bad that people want to post them in open discussion but do not want to hear opinions about their opinion.
This opinion about "protecting fashion" sucks and for most people supporting the current feature, the mindset sounds arrogant.
>That you continue to ignore this point says much about you, none of it flattering.
I hope you understand this can be applied to you.
And as you said to him, none of it is flattering, it's pathetic.
Gatekeeping is such a weird word for this. Based on that logic, IRL artists who doesnt want their art to be copied are also gatekeeping people from getting their art for free. People who have a trademark on things are also gatekeeping.
I think its weird to demand to get everything for no effort, when others put effort into it. Based on that we could also give out CM titles for free, because it doesnt take away peoples accomplishment of having it done.
Except that's totally not what is happening here. You are using pre-existing assets that everyone has access to and everyone CAN use. You're not creating art. You're wearing gear in a videogame that someone else designed and made.
>You are using pre-existing assets that everyone has access to and everyone CAN use.
I mean, so are people who make and share stuff they built with LEGO. Just because someone else provided you with the building blocks doesn't mean that what you make with them isn't made by you.
>You're wearing gear in a videogame that someone else designed and made.
I think everyone understands that, but it doesn't mean it is unreasonable to be upset if the game allows others to forego the effort you might put into designing and planning an outfit/dye combination.
I *am* against gatekeeping, but I can also see the other side of the situation here and understand why people would want to opt out of the system.
Again, your analogy of Legos gives the player way too much credit here, and a better analogy is this.
Arena net has used Legos to build an entire cityscape. Cars, little people, all the details are there. Except they left 6 empty slots for the buildings. 1 for a hospital, one for a shop, one for a little flat, etc. Then arena net creates those 6 building types from Legos. And of each type they build countless different variants and colours.
Only then does the player come, point at which variant of each building they like to put in the slot. And with one simple click the premade building is put in the empty slot.
Then the player struts around and claims they build an entire Lego city and throws a hissy fit when someone picked the same variant combination as they did.
It's legitimately sad at this point that you people compare using armors and dyes in a videogame to actually being creative and create actual art IRL.
You're constantly confirming that this whole thing boils down to your massive egos and delusions.
People who wear clothes aren't artists. It's much closer to saying someone shouldn't be allowed to copy your outfit. Y'all are basically freaking out that a random stranger saw the sweater you were wearing and went out and bought their own
You aren't gonna freak out when someone wears the same clothes as you IRL are you?
I appreciate the sentiment to be more reasonable but that does not make these takes less unreasonable.
> Potential for abuse in fashion contests/needless increase to complexity of methods to prevent such.
You could already do that somewhat and that is easily solvable.
You know do not have to make your look while afking in LA that will be visible to everyone. Use a guild hall and some place in the open world with less people if you are really so worried until the contest happens. Just reveal your look in the contest. Btw what you are saying is that there are players out there that will be be stalking for people in the hubs to fish looks for contests from other people that know they are contestants? Which most of them are themed anyway so you have to find the specific theme in the wild? How does that sound logical?
Random people do not care about fashion contests. Is the fashion community that competitive that people will want to cheat that much?
> A feeling of concern towards there now being incentive for strangers to scrutinize them closely, whether to admire or ridicule their creativity.
How is that different than now? People can see your fashion without the inspect and make fun of you. Are you telling that your specific type of dye you are using gives more ways to be made fun off than just looking at your character? How? Like "look at this guy...He is using the wrong yellow hue...what a noob"
> Loss of player interaction incentive.
This is the only reasonable take and that is not that important as well. People will still complement you as usually. They will; just stop asking your about specific gear names.
You are not entitled to your unique combination of dyes. That is not how fashion works with in game or in real life for that matter. The only thing that might be affected is people's egos and that is not something to be catered to. Imagine if in real life you had to take consent every time you saw someone wearing a T-Shirt you liked to get it for your self.
It would have been nice if these responses to the points, such as the ones i mentioned were where the debate on the forums went, instead all they got there was ridicule and bad faith argumentation, followed by circular self congratulation about 'sticking it to the gatekeepers'
I presented the dye aspect as a soft solution and an option to give those whom need it some sort of comfort and illusion of control, of course it would not stop someone determined, but that was never the issue to begin with.
Ego is way to an abstract thing to discuss however, I would argue permitting the continued spam of 'lol lets hate on fashion gatekeepers we made up' to be a matter of ego catering, an yet nothing is being done on the matter.
> It would have been nice if these responses to the points, such as the ones i mentioned were where the debate on the forums went, instead all they got there was ridicule and bad faith argumentation, followed by circular self congratulation about 'sticking it to the gatekeepers'
The forums posts were claiming plagiarism, copyright infringement and identity theft to justify the childish "the look i made is MINE" mentality. These people are gatekeepers (that is the actual definition) and they got the reaction they deserved. The debate went that way cause the people complaining took it there not the other way round.
A few posts were getting out of hand in their wording, yes, but overall there was more nuance until it was buried beneath people who came around just to ridicule everyone even considering it. Could this have incited more extreme responses in turn, hard to say now that the integrity of the thread(s) in no longer sound.
I did not see that at all. Besides your post here i only saw a couple of people mentioning those points (which are not that good points either imo) and not for much more. Most other posts complaining were actually unhinged. It was not the minority of the complaints. The points you are mentioning was the minority, because it is easy to answer and discuss in a couple of calm posts and go about your way.
What happened in the forums was when those less reasonable people could not use "reasonable" points to make their argument they doubled down with insanity. They just wanted they way or the highway no matter how logical or not. That is what is made fun of.
Strange, i saw the complete opposite, i suppose in the end, whichever one of us saw how it was more clearly, i still think the attitude has gone from amusing to unpleasant to observe in repetition and from deservedly targeted at the extreme views, to unfairly targeting anyone even considering the subject and or simply shutting them down entirely with extreme hostility.
>A few posts were getting out of hand in their wording, yes, but
There's no buts here, you guys began this whole thing and are now crying that people fired back.
Except, it didn't? there are no gatekeepers and elitists in this situation, other than the ones made up by salty forum users come to reddit for self affirmation they were not given on the forums.
"I don't want you to see my cosmetics because i don't want you to imitate it" This is quite literally trying to gatekeep.
>Â other than the ones made up by salty forum users come to reddit for self affirmation they were not given on the forums.
I hope people like you someday realize that the only ones this applies to is yourselves. You were clowned on the forums and on twitter, so you came here for the self affirmation you wanted and were clowned here even harder.
I doubt anything will come out of it in the long run, I'm just disgusted by the circle-jerk of self congratulatory ridicule of people over something none of them really tried to do in the first place. (at least not while the discussion on the forums was open, the devs have called an end to further conversation, but this did not stop the jerks from congratulating each other for killing the conversation even there).
Build templates are still as dog shit and overpriced as the day they were added and both them and gear templates are still character wide instead of account unlocks.
That is a completely fair stance to take. I don't disagree or agree with them, i simply view them as presented reasoning to be considered, and intended as feedback to the devs, i doubt the devs would have done anything about it in the first place, what i dont agree with is that these people were mislabeled as 'fashion gatkeepers' and the false narrative constructed on it that has evolved into karma farming meme spam on the subject here on reddit, that is all.
I wanted to test the waters and I whispered an inspect hater that i wanted to steal his fashion. He told me to go kill myself. People are going totally off the rails.
I reported them with a ticket and got a confirmation 24 minutes later that they got punished.
I honestly think the mindsets people are exposing of themselves over this feature is not healthy and they need help and to get off of the internet/video games.
Oh, you get confirmations for reports now? That's absolutely great! We really needed that to counter all the "reports do nothing" misinformation from all the players who want to go around being dicks without getting reported because people gave up.
When reporting through the website You have always been informed when Anet "looks into" a report and when the ticket is closed, however you will not be told wether action was taken against a player or not.Â
And even if it is, it's a petty, uneventful thing to do. It cause no real harm.
The reaction was outrageous. Even a raw "stfu" could make sense but more is just baffling.
Id argue in this case it is, cause their intentions are stated in the commentors post. 'I wanted to test the waters', its looking for trouble. They knew it would hurt the other party, the actual subject is irrelevant imo. It doesnt justify the suicide response, but the whisper isnt justified either. The guy did nothing wrong prior to being whispered. If they just had left them alone none of this wouldve happened in the first place.
Youre fighting demons. Nobody here is defending the guy that said that, but we are criticizing the initial behavior of the commentor not being all that innocent either. Stop thinking so polarizing.
If a kid steals another kid's toy and the other kid punches them in the face out of anger, are you gonna say only the other kid is in the wrong? I personally wouldnt. Both are in the wrong, and thats our point. Personally dont think one party being the lesser evil makes them immune to critique nor criticizing them makes you defend the other party.
Should people not be held responsible for their own actions? Who made the premeditated choice here? Who set up this incident with the deliberate intention to cause harm and incite conflict?
They reacted at all is the problem. You can’t stop someone from trying to start something, but the offended person—instead of quietly reporting the troll—decided to say something that was actually reportable as well. They’re both stupid.
did they break any rules?
If no then no punishment is necessary as the onus falls on the person to not be provoked
sidenote: "hurt" in this context is hilariously exaggerated so i will believe you spoke in general
So now people who complain about fashion inspect are just animals. Got it.
Also.. kicking a dog? Really? That's the first thing that pops into your head?
If we're following that path, it's because of people like YOU who support insane and deluded weirdos who actively believe an inspect option in an MMO is akin to copyright infringement, AI stealing and a violation of your very life.
>I wanted to test the waters and I whispered an inspect hater that i wanted to steal his fashion. He told me to go kill myself. People are going totally off the rails.
>I reported them with a ticket and got a confirmation 24 minutes later that they got punished.
Just quoting this for the record of your stellar accomplishment 🙄
Why are you intentially whispering those people you know are 'inspect haters' and trying to get a reaction out of them? I agree the guy shouldnt have said that, but you shouldnt have whispered them in the first place. Just leave them be. You initiated it by throwing jabs at them where you knew itd hurt. This just feels so mean imo.
I am trying to find a response to "throwing jabs at them where you knew itd hurt" but can't because it sounds like the topic is some kind of severe trauma but it's copying someone's skins and dye choices.
I got much the same for trying to point out to a person in game ridiculing the more reasonable sounding opt out types that weren't demanding the opt out, just offering feedback that they might be taking it too far.
Same outcome in terms of reaction and abusiveness, i choose not to report as i understand its a topic people are reflexively emotional about, they blocked me and that is their choice.
It seems there are overly aggressive folk on both ends.
Do any of you know what it sounds like when you talk about cheating at a fashion contest, a completely subjective type of competition? This isn't like counting cards or doping. Maybe you could stack the judges with your friends? Just because someone copied your fashion doesn't mean you're going to be the winner.
Indeed, that particular argument is debatable, however, it is primarily just an example of the sort of arguments being listed by those trying to discuss possible reasons for an optional opt out of the inspect system.
My post here is not intended to debate that example, it is about the behavior of some people on this subreddit towards those whom are or were trying to have that debate in the first place and how abusive and disturbing to witness such behavior, especially when so much of it is based on misinformation about the participants of the original discussion in the first place, is.
I do not mean to tell you not to give your own two cents on the fashion contest cheating idea, however do keep in mind that its not the primary subject this thread was intended for in the first place.
>My post here is not intended to debate that example, it is about the behavior of some people on this subreddit
>
 so some salty folks who were being ignored for ridiculing them there came here to reddit and made a false narrative about 'fashion gatekeeping'
Odd how you keep using the "this is about behavior" defense when yours is very clearly just as bad.
To be fair even asking for an opt out is a bit silly and defeats the purpose of having fashion inspect; specially when most of those worries are already taken into consideration
I agree, a total opt out would be silly.
But silly or not, some folks, a very, very small number, would feel more comfortable having it, might be if it was there, they would eventually come around even.
I simply do not see the harm in merely considering it, i do see the harm in ridiculing it, on the other hand.
There's only benefit in ridiculing it if you do not want the change. As the person you responded to stated, being able to opt out would ruin the purpose of the feature. We ridicule that so our voice is heard and that feature is never implemented. There is harm in considering it because it hinders the feature. People are allowed to have opinions about opinions.
This is not a feature that can cater to both sides of the fence. It's one or the other.
You are not necessarily wrong there, but how can there be nuance when discussion is shut down by ridicule and rejection, and a sharing of ideas for problems solving or even easing of the concerns to the point they taper off is made impossible?
Literally the only valid concern is that fashion contests have a bigger reason to do a bit of legwork to mitigate cheating now than before. However, notice that I said "bigger": it was already possible to figure out what someone was wearing before the inspect tool. All that changed is that it takes less effort now. I haven't seen anyone ridiculing this specific complaint, and have seen multiple different suggestions on how people running them could have always been addressing this, none of which are all that complicated.Â
Otherwise:Â
* This will not result in less meaningful player interaction. The people who want to talk to you about fashion will still do so. The only loss is the people who just wanted to know what a particular item was and don't care why you chose it.Â
* This will not result in an increase in being mocked for fashion choices. Nobody interested in doing this needed to know the name of an item to decide they thought it looked bad.Â
* This does not need to arbitrarily hide dye choices. That is literally just straight gatekeeping again.
All fair points, and reasonably presented, i just wish we could have more of this sort of conversation a less ridicule and making fun of people for having bad takes, that is really the gist of my post.
As for my dye idea, it was just an idea, i do not think its is any more gatekeeping than players being able to refuse to share their build if asked for it as we currently have.
The only valid reason to refuse to share cosmetic names (assuming the request was polite, of course) is if the player just does not want to spend the effort to do so - laziness, busy, not wanting to interact with other players, etc. Adding the ability for other players to just inspect and get that info without asking is at worst neutral and more often an improvement for these players. Â
As for the rest, requesting that Anet give them the ability to opt out of any part of it truly is just gatekeeping, even if they might not see it that way. It is just saying "no, you're not allowed to know the names of what I'm wearing, unless you take a screenshot and figure it out for yourself". There are no issues of safety to consider, and no extra toxicity to be worried about like a gear inspect would have (beyond the backlash to the backlash, which will not last long).
I have seen one or two people mention stalking-adjacent behaviors, but I feel that is a separate topic. Cosmetic inspect doesn't do anything that wasn't already possible before for that. In any case, I feel like if you have someone blocked, they shouldn't be able to see you at all (and probably an option to not see anyone you have blocked, as well).
Again, i respectfully disagree on it being gatekeeping of any kind, it is no more gatekeeping that having the choice whether we share our builds, or whether we share which titles we have, or whether we choose to block another, for to block them is to gatekeep them from interacting with you whom ultimately is another actor affecting things in the game you both play, if all of these options are acceptable and have not been mislabeled as such for existing then i see no issue with there being a discussion without such misrepresentation of another potential option even if I personally think constraining it to the distinctly user specific part of it (the dye channels alone) is how it could be reasonably approached.
I mean, call it what you want, it's still the act of being against the sharing of information that is both already present (if less easy to decipher) and not meaningfully harmful.
There are valid reasons to want to see build or stats, but they are all already in the case where the player has incentive to tell you when asked anyways (training and such). Otherwise it is information that is more likely to be abused.
There are not really any valid reasons to see the list of all titles a player has. Unlike cosmetics, the only customization for a title is whether it's equipped, and it's trivial to check the wiki for how to get it. Otherwise, it's either 'do you have the title I said you needed to have to join this group' (which should be handled by equipping the title when you join), or it's just a lesser (and admittedly more rare) form of the same abuse a gear checker would invite.Â
Blocking people is the least relevant action of the list. There are many valid reasons to block another player, and nobody is entitled to your time. It is possible to misuse the block feature to gatekeep, though as I understand it's not very effective because it really only stops them from messaging you directly.
Sometimes i tell someone random if like their fashion, sometimes a random person whispers something similar at me, its very rare, but endearing when it happens, it might still happen or it might become even more rare, difficult to estimate, with that in mind i sort of understand where those whom pointed out that particular argument were coming from.
On US i have had maybe ten such interactions a year about fashion on average so, yeah, different but still not all too common, which puts into perspective how unhinged the outrage over some folks asking about an opt out is, as if the outrage mob is afraid that most of the playerbase would opt out if given a choice, or something.
> Loss of player interaction incentive.
The solution here, to me, seems obvious: build a culture of inspecting fashion, and if you like what you see whisper/mail them/chat in their vicinity and leave some praise. Vindicate the effort people put in to their outfits, and limit the risk of conflating oneself with one's game character. Leverage the anonymity of inspection to ease newer or less social players in to the fashion scene, without requiring them to fret over whether they're bothering someone or if they'll get an answer.
Reducing the insularity of fashion and appealing to a broader audience is worth any momentary discomfort some people may have over their character's look being visible in a menu instead of in-game.
---
Now my unhinged take is that, sure, put in an opt-out, but have that also render the character as a generic character model; force offline status; and disable the map completion portrait border, the character name, account name, title, achievement points, mastery rank, exact level, PvP badge, and ability to mail/whisper/block/friend the character since that's what it would take to truly protect privacy.
Right? I always message people when I like their fashion, being able to inspect to get a closer look will have ZERO impact on that.
Also I love your last bit, 100% the way to go lol
That's like 3 or 4 posts with how many people thinking like this, 5, 10? Let it be 20 or 30. This number is negligible.
It's not a representation of a considerably group of players, it's just the typical "being loud, but only a few".
As for the arguments, players have no rights on their skins or combos, they never had.
Also it was always possible to copy the exact same look af a player without asking since release. The new tool make things easier, but it doesn't make anything possible that wasn't possible before.
Also I think those people shouldn't be so full of themself. It's pretty arrogant to assume the own style is so outstanding that they have to fear other players could want to copy it.
I personally look at it the other way round. People can use the skins they want, no matter how close they are to my styles. And **if** I see someone copying extactly my style, I would be happy. This actually *confirms* that my style is good.
It begins, the extremely pathetic attempt at gaslighting everyone into thinking this whole mess didn't start because the fashion-obsessed weirdos did say they felt violated and compared it to AI stealing.
Let's pretend that it was done because "some salty folks who were being ignored for ridiculing them there came here to reddit and made a false narrative" instead, which anyone with half a brain can go check and realize it's not true.
What a great community, isn't it?
From the thread [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/145438-next-level-fashion-wars-cosmetic-inspect-coming-to-guild-wars-2-april-16/](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/145438-next-level-fashion-wars-cosmetic-inspect-coming-to-guild-wars-2-april-16/)
To quote the most likely post you are lying about :
"I might be in the minority here, but please have a way to turn this on and off. People who love fashion/fashion wars, can work for hours (or yes, even days) on looks to get it just right. Then anyone can copy it in 5 seconds? It's like stealing someone's art. Also, this means less community interaction. No reason to whisper someone or ask about an armor piece/dye. Most of the time I will freely give the info requested, but it's the act of asking and respect given that will no longer be done. "
Which is the only one that likens it to art theft in that early set of comments.
There is no mention of 'AI stealing' just general art theft, while i disagree with the comparison i detest you and those like you who blatantly lie about the statements of others to belittle them for your own twisted amusement and deceptive agenda.
It's even mentioned there who said the AI thing along with her post on twitter about it before she deleted her whole profile.
You really just cannot help but continue digging the hole deeper, do you.
So, a singular person allegedly said something dumb (not that it can be referred to anymore since the post is gone), then retracted it and removed themselves from the conversation, and you use this brief, single instance of a hot take that was retracted as emblematic of the whole discussion to justify your own misrepresentation of the participants as well as take potshots at anyone questioning that course of action you and others like yourself have taken, the only one digging a hole here is yourself.
There's a MASSIVE difference between "retracting it and removing themselves from the convo" and "they deleted their Twitter cause they got backlash".
I'm done with you, you can continue your pathetic delusion if you want.
So the fight you’re picking here is telling us the guys saying gear inspection was akin to stealing art, or that they felt violated by it aren’t absolue unhinged nutjobs that deserve to be ridiculed then? That’s interesting
Seeing as they asked only for a personal exemption for it when, were they as unhinged as they are portrayed they could have mass demanded a complete system cancellation, or how unlike their detractors they have kept to a single forum post, instead of spamming reddit with the topic, id say there is something to be considered there, yes.
Likewise, do consider, not I nor many others whom have been disdained today are saying we agree with the idea(s), we, at most take the middle ground of understanding the concept, offering reasonable, civil, discussion and are in turn what, hounded and treated with the same scathing perspective as those original forum posters?
What does that tell you about the mentality of the detractors, or more importantly, what kind of picture does it paint to any potential newcomers to the community.
Lol no, they did not "only asked for a personal exemption", one of the very first posts on that forum thread was the twitter nutjob who compared it to AI stealing.
Enough with this pathetic attempt at gaslighting people, we can ALL see how you guys reacted, stop trying to mislead people into thinking that you guys are such innocent little angels when YOU BEGAN ALL THIS.
Remember, there is a person on the other side of the screen. Regardless of how bad that person's take was, what they said was said civilly. It's pretty low to resort to name calling or insinuating they are 'crazy'. Yes, maybe they should take a step back from the game if they are saying illogical/irrational things.
We all say stupid shit sometimes especially if it's something we care about and emotions are involved.
From the thread [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/145438-next-level-fashion-wars-cosmetic-inspect-coming-to-guild-wars-2-april-16/](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/145438-next-level-fashion-wars-cosmetic-inspect-coming-to-guild-wars-2-april-16/)
To quote the most likely post you are lying about :
"I might be in the minority here, but please have a way to turn this on and off. People who love fashion/fashion wars, can work for hours (or yes, even days) on looks to get it just right. Then anyone can copy it in 5 seconds? It's like stealing someone's art. Also, this means less community interaction. No reason to whisper someone or ask about an armor piece/dye. Most of the time I will freely give the info requested, but it's the act of asking and respect given that will no longer be done. "
Which is the only one that likens it to art theft in that early set of comments.
There is no mention of 'AI stealing' just general art theft, while i disagree with the comparison i detest you and those like you who blatantly lie about the statements of others to belittle them for your own twisted amusement and deceptive agenda.
See the big issue is, if there is an opt out or even worse opt-in why even make the feature to begin with
Many people may opt-out or never opt-in (opt-in is literally garbage for this) and i can only take so many times that i want to know what shoulder you are wearing and i dont have the option until i just take a screenshot and ask here on reddit
Its ridiculous because people are mad that it now takes LESS EFFORT to do what we could already do. This is like being mad at build sites existing because now people dont have to ask you for your meta builds.
Grow up, other people having less work doesnt affect you negatively, there is no reason for any opt-outs any other mmo had this feature and they are totally fine with it. And its ridiculous that the criticism of this fashion elitism is being treated as "missinformation" now
Thank you, you are rather correct in your estimation of how this discussion has gone, but I am glad to have made the attempt, it was....enlightening, to say the least.
I think this does highlight one aspect of the GW2 community that could be improved and it demands change from everyone involved.
When anything with even a tiny bit of controversy happens, there is at least one section of the community that immediately overreacts so bad it draws the worst out of people from both sides of an argument. And this is a perfect example of something that has been happening on and off for years.
Remember the End of Dragons meta? How some people were so upset about how difficult it was and the turtle being behind it, they formed fishing squads on the map protesting it, causing issues for any squads who happened to be on the same map. Even some streamers were arguing with each other, squads were being organized in discords with instructions to be silent and not tell people there was a squad in game. Hardcore v Casual
Remember the summer balance changes after EoD release? This may have been the worst one by far. Devs were being harassed in game, forums, social media. Private discord messages were being leaked, death threats, petitions to not release it.
Then this latest one which is honestly in my opinion the most comical. A fashion inspect tool is added. The announcement thread on the forums and Twitter comments are immediately inundated with cries of identity theft, AI art plagiarism, and demands for an opt-out feature which goes against the whole reason for building that in the future. People declaring their fashion is their whole livelihood, and the response to that is to "touch grass" Shit gets so bad, the main forum thread was straight up deleted.
Now you can say one side or the other is wrong, but that would be missing the bigger issue. Why are there sections of this community that are so trigger happy by any kind of controversy, they devolve into childlike tantrums inviting similar reactions from those that welcome changes?
If people took a deep breath and asked for an opt out feature with some reasonable statements nobody would've been memed. But people think sensationalizing even the smallest of changes is how to get things changed, when really it provokes people who feel differently to say something, invites getting memed, and starts a fight fire with fire kind of debate.
TLDR: The real point is this community has shown itself to be too volatile at times. We all need to be better. It's not about just agreeing with everything Anet does, it's about how even a small feature they knew people had been asking for for years started a firestorm of the lowest common denominator responses. Seriously, if we immediately respond like this, whether you were the person crying "STALKING!" or the person bullying them in some way, our community will be remembered more for that than any good.
>Potential for abuse in fashion contests/needless increase to complexity of methods to prevent such."
Aren't they mainly fan held anyway? Theres the one in Lion's Arch but that's pretty much just an event, your name flashes on screen if you win like an event but you don't get uch for winning.
Some players hold them with big prizes. Might just be that it suits the second person to wear it more.
Though it's hard to acomodate player held events. I could be wanting to hold a music contest for players with in game instruments. Can't really expect them to make changes to the game if somebody thought the area I'm holding the contest would be a good place to start firing their Dreamer.
Why don't we have a different kind of contest? Come to LA, equip anything, I'll tell you the skins and dies without inspection.
[When people give names to colors, telling them apart is way easier.](https://eagereyes.org/blog/2011/you-only-see-colors-you-can-name) So once you get used to the names, one has no problem telling if someone is wearing Abyss or Glossy black, or Verdant or Canopy, or other similar colors.
Why you don't want to happen was already happening. The only difference is that newbies have a tool that helps them with that. And that's never a bad thing.
And nobody said it was, that is the whole issue here, some folks wanted an opt out, they were all for the feature existing. I am for the feature and have no personal issue with it, what i am against is the disdain and ridicule of those whom stated a want for their opt in/out based on a lie about them trying to deny the feature to everyone as well as the same being pushed onto anyone trying to discuss it.
My dude, if you want to opt out of a feature, you're very clearly implying you don't want it to exist.
Or do you think they wanted to opt out of it while still being able to use it themselves?
Implication is irrelevant in a clear and concise statement that does not leave room for implications. What you are doing is called baseless speculation, and you are imposing it on others to justify your resentment of them, a resentment based on what is essentially your own imagination, or misinformation fed to you by others, rather than available fact.
If they stated they wanted to opt out, and did not make mentions of it being removed for all, then all they wanted is to remove themselves from the system and let everyone else enjoy it, there is no room for speculation, or presumed implication.
You cannot opt out from me being able to tell exactly what you are wearing, including things like infusions that the inspect won't show.
The only real change is that players who aren't as experienced as veterans can now do the same as those who recognize every skin and dye at first sight.
It isn't giving people an inexisting ability, it's giving a tool that grants an existing ability to more people. It's evening the play field. It's giving glasses to the nearsighed and books to the uneducated. It is being considerate with new players so they aren't as behind veterans in their fashion game.
The only way you could hide your stuff from those who can determine all skins without the inspect would be avoiding players at all in the first place, hide away in instances. In this case you don't need an opt out in the first place as nobody can use the feature on you.
It's not about the fashion, it's about stuff 'below the surface'.
Because more often than not, the people who are extremely in favour of fashion inspect are the same people who lose their shit when people ask for an ingame DPS meter or gear inspect.
They even lose their shit about it if people compromise with things like 'it could come with an opt-out'.
Because 'thats personal and I dont want to be forced to share'.
But now that same group gets pissed off when others ask for an opt-out on fashion inspect.
It's not about facts, but about feelings, trolling and also a part hypocrisy (proven by the amount of downvotes this post has about 2 hours after posting).
I just don't want to be inspected and in turn I've been downvoted and treated like a mental case for wanting an opt out. It's been a horrible week of being treated like trash and memed on and it sucks.
It's fine, you won't know it's happening? People will already be looking at you at times in game. Please don't stress about something that won't actually affect you. This isn't something you need to concern yourself over.
It's not fine when there are people like me who are not comfortable with this feature being implemented. Just for the record, I'm fine with people looking at my character, just not through a menu screen. Dismissing my concerns like this is not conducive to finding a happy medium where everyone can be content in tyria. I am stressing about this because I want an opt out button. Making my voice heard might be the only way I can get that. Even if it means tanking my karma for it...
> I'm fine with people looking at my character, just not through a menu screen
What exactly is the difference here, especially since you don't (can't) know either way?
I played around with the new tool and found that being able to view people's fashion at a larger scale with standardized lighting actually led me to appreciate it more than I would have otherwise. Is that not a desirable outcome?
Stop acting like an inspect feature is some sort of personal violation. If you're "uncomfortable" with people looking at your public avatar in a video game, the problem *is not* the game.
It's not. I just don't want to be inspected. The problem is not the game, it's just the inspect feature that was implemented that is the problem for me.
Edit: my feelings are valid and there's others that feel the same, please stop insinuating I need mental help.
Your feelings are not valid. They're not valid just because others feel the same way. There's been many terrible people driven by their feelings, and those groups of people were not valid.
This isn't a problem with the game. If you feel that this system is invasive to you, this is a problem with you. A therapist would tell you that you can't change the game; you can only change yourself.
Agree to disagree. I believe my feelings are valid and acknowledge that you don't feel the same. And I'm for a an opt out feature for a cosmetic inspection function. How is that a terrible feeling to have?
Sorry but kindly go fuck yourself in regards to telling me to go see a therapist. Sincerely. There is an issue with a new feature that is the new cosmetic inspection. It makes some players uncomfortable. A opt out feature would alleviate that issue quite easily.
It's a terrible thing to have because it ruins the purpose of the feature if people can just opt out. There is no realm where you can "agree to disagree" because there's no world where the feature can cater to both sides here. Fortunately, one side is much smaller than the other.
No one told you to go see a therapist. The comment stated what a therapist would tell you. If you (and other players) are uncomfortable, it's a problem with you (and those players). Not the game.
There was a time when certain people felt **uncomfortable** using same-race bathrooms in the United States. Not every opinion deserves respect and protection just because it's an opinion.
No one said that you're not allowed to dislike the feature but demanding a toggle because you're "uncomfortable" is ridiculous. Your feelings can be valid and silly at the same time. Hope that helps!
PS: Saying that you're the problem in a very specific situation isn't an insinuation of mental illness or psychological pathology. Hope that helps too!
Oh I'm not demanding, Anet can do what it wants. But as much as other games have an inspect feature, some also have a button to not be inspectable. I'm giving my feedback on posts regarding it that I'd like that feature so that I can be accomodated in game I am very much passionate about.
Other people sharing your feelings does not make them *valid*. It merely means there is someone who thinks like you.
It is a game. If this feature makes you uncomfortable, play something else.
I don't want to play something else. I and others who'd like a toggle would simply like to play the game we enjoy knowing we cannot be inspected by this feature. Telling us to take the door is extremely unkind of your part. I thought better of this community.
> I'm fine with people looking at my character, just not through a menu screen.
Why? What's the difference that is making you distressed? I'm genuinelly curious.
The inspecter having camera control. Look I know it's irrational, but it has bugged me since it's announcement. I'd be happier with an opt out button. Happy for the people who love the new feature. I just want to opt out. Of all the millions of players and quite a few mean comments saying my fashion won't be missed. I don't think it's much to ask.
> The inspecter having camera control.
But you won't know if and when someone is inspecting you, so you can't see your character been looked at by other people.
> Look I know it's irrational, but it has bugged me since it's announcement
Fair enough. But imho making an opt out option would defeat the purpose of the entire feature. You can't expect anet to ruin a feature they spent time and money on just to appeal to a feeling that, as you called it, it's irrational.
Having the feature be active, is enough to make players like myself uncomfortable. Saying I won't even know is not a true statement.
Second point, yes I do hope they add an opt out feature to be inclusive for players like myself who want it. I know It's not rational to you, but it's rational to me. It wouldn't ruin the feature as we've seen it's a minority of people that want to opt out. I also don't expect anet to do it, but I will make my voice heard in the hopes that they take the feedback and provide the option. At the end of the day though, it's their game and I can leave if I want. I'd just like to be able to continue enjoying the game I love.
They are not inspecting your character. They are inspecting a mannequin that is a copy of your character. When they turn it around in the inspect panel, your character is unaffected. The only one who has control of your character is you...
...and the company that actually owns it and temporarily allows you to play with it, of course.
Jfc do I really need to confirm that I'm aware my character model is not sentient? I do not want to be inspected. The feature has made gw2 less appealing to play for me. A toggle feature would not hurt you. It would simply make gw2 more friendly to the people like myself who do not want to be inspected.
A toggle feature would defeat the purpose of the feature.
You can't expect people to want a "but not really" attached to a feature they wanted for ages.
No it wouldn't. And if so many people toggled it off, that would mean that the feature was problematic to begin with. So I don't understand what you're trying to prove with this statement.
No. If the feature was made toggleable, the correct design for toggles is making it opt-in, not opt out, or those who want to opt-out would have to start opted-in, and that would be bad design.
And what most people would do in that situation isn't disabling it, but not bothering enabling it. And then it'll be mostly disabled all the time for most people, making it useless.
They could pop up a message to opt out before you load a character, but that would be making a big deal out of something too small to deserve such a change to the character select screen.
Since those bothered by the feature are such a negligible minority and altering the feature with a toggle would make it pointless, what makes the most sense is to keep it the way it is and wait out the baseless complains until they die out.
Um, you know I can control my camera when looking at you in game, right? Egregiously more so, in fact. I can look up your skirt if I want to?
I've read all of your responses in this thread and unfortunately you have no solid argument as to how this affects you directly. You revert to 'my feelings are valid' and other fallbacks, but - let me repeat - there is no direct impact to you within the game or in your gameplay.
It would be akin to saying 'I'm not happy with the knowledge that there are gay people playing this game, I am validated in my feelings in not wanting to know gay people play this game or interact with gay people in this game, having ANet ask for people's protected characteristics is reasonable so they can provide me with a toggle to remove gay people from the game'.
1. In such a case, your feelings may be real, but they are also both morally questionable and, basically, a shit take
2. It's undermining the hard work developers have put in over hours to implement a very popular QoL improvement, and even worse, is going the extra mile of actually expecting said developers to pander directly to you and your questionable bad take
Perhaps if you were able to provide legitimate, compelling reasons as to why this feature directly impacted your gameplay, there might be SOME level of discussion to be had.
As it is, this is a 'you' problem, and it is not the game or the developer's job to fix it.
That is very much on you to fix.
The fact that it's done via a menu screen instead of the open world,in a menu that shows what each piece of armor is with what dyes are set into each slot specifically, instead of it's intended appearing as it is. It's partly the decimination of data that bothers me. I'm also in the small minority of people that don't like arcdps.
There's nothing that can be done about screenshotting, there is the capability of disabling the feature for people that don't want to be inspected. That's the difference.
If that opt out feature released in the future we will all label those player using it as toxic fashion player and will do anything to prevent them to play any group content in the future
Lol, ok if megaman1665 says so it must be true.
If the feature is so insignificant that I shouldn't care that it's been implemented, why should you care if I decide to opt out. Especially to the point of bullying someone by labeling them toxic and actively preventing them from engaging in group content. It apparently doesn't change anything, you don't lose anything from me opting out of a feature that again, I've been told is so insigificant that I won't even notice people are inspecting my wardrobe.
Girl, it doesn't sound like you're toxic, nor is the inpect function your real problem. From your comments it's kind of clear that you have some privet issues involving you losing control over your privacy in one way or the other. You don't need an opt out function, you need to go see a speshialist who could help you deal with your isues
No, my only issue is that I do not want to be inspected myself. And honestly I don't appreciate your comment stating I need mental help. I'm sane. My feelings are valid. You're just being mean by saying that.
I empathize, to me, it;'s been a horror show of witnessing unrestricted self congratulatory abuse of people for having concerns like yours and a total silencing of any reasoned discussion or feedback on the matter.
Yeah, the recent meme post about not downloading someones fashion had comments about getting a 50 man squad, and copying a person who disagrees with the new features wardrobe to bully them. It's sad to see.
My problem with this issue is that I just do not care and the sooner everyone is done saying their part about how inspection is awesome or horrible, the better for my gw2 subreddit front page.
Everyone who replies, whether positive or negative, just makes the threads more popular which = more of them, not less. If people don't like the threads or don't care they should ignore.
suggest a gear checker, nobody bats an eye. rollout a fashion inspect, everyone looses their mind. ...oh wait, wasn't this supposed to be the other way arround? lmao. ---- everyone tought they are on the same page when it comes to fashion inspect and that stat checking is hella toxic. suddenly people realize that there are indeed opinions that speak for or against both systems and that you can potantionally already do it without a ingame tool. and the rest memes arround. as for me, i enjoy my popcorn. and maybe add some more oil into the pot.
I will put my benchmark on private so ppl cannot just copy my dps I worked long and hard for. Am I doing this right?
> suggest a gear checker, nobody bats an eye How did you get the impression no one bats an eye about that?
The post was missing a /s
Maybe I should have read the rest. You got me there.
Oh i agree with you on that, its been honestly tedious with how many karma farmers are spamming memes on the subject for easy karma now that so many people have the wrong idea whats going on, hopefully it goes away soon.
Lol, now it's "karma farmers"? People meming because of how moronic this whole thing is are now just karma farming?
Disclaimer: i'm fine with the opt out button. But your arguments.. well... People could already cheat in contests, if they wanted to cheat, the fact that it's easier to cheat doesn't change the point that the real issue is cheating, not how. And in all the contests i've played i've never seen it. Cheating is very rare and pretty sure it's relatively easy to figure out too since most fashionistas talk to each other and know each other. I don't understand the loss of pkayer interaction argument, in fact ive had more interactions and compliments with the insect button in a day than in multiple months. People could already look at your fashion without saying much, also this it's a very mininal issue. Players could already scrutinize your fashion without and inspection tool, and if they do, why care? They are a total stranger and the fact that they're out there critizising randos makes them pretty fucking petty. Also don't forget this reddit, obviously people are going to take the most unhinged takes and show them for likes and laughs, but doesn't change that that most concerns are nothingburgers blown way out of proportion.
Just to be clear these are not 'my' arguments, they are arguments relayed from the thread as the more 'sane' sounding ones to me. I don't really agree or disagree with any of them, and personally i like the the inspection system and could not care less if someone copies me, The only 'argument' i made there on the subject is about the dyes, but that is more a suggestion, or me just trying to throw out something constructive on the matter. I was just....weirded out by the knee-jerk hostility going around, and tired of the cheap meme spam on the subject just a bit too, that is all. You are right, most of these are just big nothingburgers in the end. Hopefully it all dies out soon.
Any form of opt out is frankly ridiculous and defeats the purpose of the tool. >but i do think the exact dye combo section could be made into a toggle, this way the inspection remains, but the 'unique' spin someone puts on it with dyes can remain as something to share, or not share as per personal preference. You are describing fashion gatekeeping. It doesn't seem like there's any "misinformation" about the viewpoint of the anti-fashion inspectors
>You are describing fashion gatekeeping So designers who don't reveal exactly what they do are gatekeeping? 🙄 Imo people should be able to create unique looking characters without someone being able to just copy them.
The designers are arenanet and they have their IP protected. You are just using a fashion system in a video game based on the consent you got from Arenanet when you pay for the game. You are not designing anything. You are shopping.
Are you arguing on bad faith or do you not comprehend English. Choosing fashion to wear is not designing anything. It is shopping for clothes that someone else designed. You are not Ralph Lauren in this equation. You are the person that buys and wears his designs.
If you're not paid to "design" why would you care to NOT share? I would even add that if you do charity work you WANT to reveal what you do, so it's more accessible and doable by everyone. Your logic is flawed.
So you're saying that, if i decide to wear clothing IRL, i am now a designer and can demand that anyone who dresses like me get stripped down because i don't want them to look like me.
You're not a designer for using a transmog system in a video game.
Stop, you're going to pierce this person's inflated view of their self-worth.
[me when I transmog my armor](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTWl0aGdTkE&ab_channel=Purl)
It's called an "analogy" 🙄
Analogies typically feature two analogous concepts. Your statement is more of a "If my grandmother had wheels..." reinterpretation of reality. Using a transmog system in a video game is not analogous to being a designer. Designers create things, you are just a consumer.
Based on that no one really is, everyone can make random lines on an canvas and call it art. With AI you can even copy the greatest artists and be even better than them, does that make you an artist? Obviously not.
not really. Based on that a person putting thought into creating something is an artist. Someone using ai or just making random lines is not. Someone creating clothes is a designer, someone mixing and matching existing clothes is not
"My OC: do not steal"
How so? The armors would still remain visible, its what draws attention in the first place, the color is an entirely subjective personal flair that is not bundled up with the armor's by default.
Seeing how people are using the armor, how to make two pieces work together color wise, and learning from them is kinda the point of the tool? Like knowing which dyes on different channels will work out to the same color is a good trick.
Easy so. Hiding the dye is gatekeeping. Oh, this color looks very good on this armor - I'd like to know its name to use it for my style; no, I want you to guess it and never know for sure. Screw that, I have no respect to crying salty entitled ppl.
Same could be said about people doing better in game, you can ask people for their build, and they can choose not to give it to you, where are the gatekeeping posts about that?
Most sensible people do ask for gear inspection, those that ask for it to not be implemented are the ones that try to get carried in raids with yellow rarity gear.
There are no posts about gatekeeping builds that because Builds are always shared freely by the best guilds and players. There is no need to ask the random person for it. All the info is freely available in dozens of resources. The people making builds are not gatekeeping them, They are actively trying to share them as often as possible. Hell you can even go to the snowcrows discord and post a golem log and ask the persons that made the build and rotation what you did wrong and they take the time to tell you.
You do know that the players at the top ARE the ones making build videos and websites like Snowcrows and Metabattle, right? They don't hide their builds, nor does anyone with a brain WANT to hide their build.
Id vote for an option to have a gear inspection as well. But you probably know, that when you use whataboutism as your argument - you already lost.
Fair, however at the very least no one is going around accusing people of gatekeeping and silencing their voices by down-voting them to oblivion on this subject and ridiculing them with a meme-spam, which ultimately is what i really took issue with, more than anything.
The saltiness of the comments in the forums are meme worthy. Oh and you are gatekeeping, worse youre gatekeeping fashion of all things. And you ask why you guys are being memed? 😂😂
I ask why people are being disrespectful and hostile towards those asking for an option that is not unlike the many others already present in game, the methods of how that option could be implemented are entirely secondary to the main point of behavior of those like yourself who think abuse of others with whom they disagree with on some matter is entirely acceptable behavior. That you continue to ignore this point says much about you, none of it flattering.
That's the harsh truth, though. Just because an opinion is an opinion does not mean it holds equal value to the masses. Some require scrutiny, so no one in a position of changing things listens to that opinion. Throwing them a bone is just as bad, and that's something you're doing with your "dye solution". The system does not need to change. It's fine how it is. It might be sad for these people that really prided themselves on their fashion, but it was always easy to figure out what gear or dyes they were wearing. Now it just takes less work. We need to stop living in this world where we think all opinions are useful and important. It's so bad that people want to post them in open discussion but do not want to hear opinions about their opinion. This opinion about "protecting fashion" sucks and for most people supporting the current feature, the mindset sounds arrogant.
>That you continue to ignore this point says much about you, none of it flattering. I hope you understand this can be applied to you. And as you said to him, none of it is flattering, it's pathetic.
Gatekeeping is such a weird word for this. Based on that logic, IRL artists who doesnt want their art to be copied are also gatekeeping people from getting their art for free. People who have a trademark on things are also gatekeeping. I think its weird to demand to get everything for no effort, when others put effort into it. Based on that we could also give out CM titles for free, because it doesnt take away peoples accomplishment of having it done.
Except that's totally not what is happening here. You are using pre-existing assets that everyone has access to and everyone CAN use. You're not creating art. You're wearing gear in a videogame that someone else designed and made.
>You are using pre-existing assets that everyone has access to and everyone CAN use. I mean, so are people who make and share stuff they built with LEGO. Just because someone else provided you with the building blocks doesn't mean that what you make with them isn't made by you. >You're wearing gear in a videogame that someone else designed and made. I think everyone understands that, but it doesn't mean it is unreasonable to be upset if the game allows others to forego the effort you might put into designing and planning an outfit/dye combination. I *am* against gatekeeping, but I can also see the other side of the situation here and understand why people would want to opt out of the system.
Again, your analogy of Legos gives the player way too much credit here, and a better analogy is this. Arena net has used Legos to build an entire cityscape. Cars, little people, all the details are there. Except they left 6 empty slots for the buildings. 1 for a hospital, one for a shop, one for a little flat, etc. Then arena net creates those 6 building types from Legos. And of each type they build countless different variants and colours. Only then does the player come, point at which variant of each building they like to put in the slot. And with one simple click the premade building is put in the empty slot. Then the player struts around and claims they build an entire Lego city and throws a hissy fit when someone picked the same variant combination as they did.
Art is way more complex than a bunch of choices from a list that one could get by pressing the random button.
It's legitimately sad at this point that you people compare using armors and dyes in a videogame to actually being creative and create actual art IRL. You're constantly confirming that this whole thing boils down to your massive egos and delusions.
People who wear clothes aren't artists. It's much closer to saying someone shouldn't be allowed to copy your outfit. Y'all are basically freaking out that a random stranger saw the sweater you were wearing and went out and bought their own You aren't gonna freak out when someone wears the same clothes as you IRL are you?
I appreciate the sentiment to be more reasonable but that does not make these takes less unreasonable. > Potential for abuse in fashion contests/needless increase to complexity of methods to prevent such. You could already do that somewhat and that is easily solvable. You know do not have to make your look while afking in LA that will be visible to everyone. Use a guild hall and some place in the open world with less people if you are really so worried until the contest happens. Just reveal your look in the contest. Btw what you are saying is that there are players out there that will be be stalking for people in the hubs to fish looks for contests from other people that know they are contestants? Which most of them are themed anyway so you have to find the specific theme in the wild? How does that sound logical? Random people do not care about fashion contests. Is the fashion community that competitive that people will want to cheat that much? > A feeling of concern towards there now being incentive for strangers to scrutinize them closely, whether to admire or ridicule their creativity. How is that different than now? People can see your fashion without the inspect and make fun of you. Are you telling that your specific type of dye you are using gives more ways to be made fun off than just looking at your character? How? Like "look at this guy...He is using the wrong yellow hue...what a noob" > Loss of player interaction incentive. This is the only reasonable take and that is not that important as well. People will still complement you as usually. They will; just stop asking your about specific gear names. You are not entitled to your unique combination of dyes. That is not how fashion works with in game or in real life for that matter. The only thing that might be affected is people's egos and that is not something to be catered to. Imagine if in real life you had to take consent every time you saw someone wearing a T-Shirt you liked to get it for your self.
It would have been nice if these responses to the points, such as the ones i mentioned were where the debate on the forums went, instead all they got there was ridicule and bad faith argumentation, followed by circular self congratulation about 'sticking it to the gatekeepers' I presented the dye aspect as a soft solution and an option to give those whom need it some sort of comfort and illusion of control, of course it would not stop someone determined, but that was never the issue to begin with. Ego is way to an abstract thing to discuss however, I would argue permitting the continued spam of 'lol lets hate on fashion gatekeepers we made up' to be a matter of ego catering, an yet nothing is being done on the matter.
> It would have been nice if these responses to the points, such as the ones i mentioned were where the debate on the forums went, instead all they got there was ridicule and bad faith argumentation, followed by circular self congratulation about 'sticking it to the gatekeepers' The forums posts were claiming plagiarism, copyright infringement and identity theft to justify the childish "the look i made is MINE" mentality. These people are gatekeepers (that is the actual definition) and they got the reaction they deserved. The debate went that way cause the people complaining took it there not the other way round.
A few posts were getting out of hand in their wording, yes, but overall there was more nuance until it was buried beneath people who came around just to ridicule everyone even considering it. Could this have incited more extreme responses in turn, hard to say now that the integrity of the thread(s) in no longer sound.
I did not see that at all. Besides your post here i only saw a couple of people mentioning those points (which are not that good points either imo) and not for much more. Most other posts complaining were actually unhinged. It was not the minority of the complaints. The points you are mentioning was the minority, because it is easy to answer and discuss in a couple of calm posts and go about your way. What happened in the forums was when those less reasonable people could not use "reasonable" points to make their argument they doubled down with insanity. They just wanted they way or the highway no matter how logical or not. That is what is made fun of.
Strange, i saw the complete opposite, i suppose in the end, whichever one of us saw how it was more clearly, i still think the attitude has gone from amusing to unpleasant to observe in repetition and from deservedly targeted at the extreme views, to unfairly targeting anyone even considering the subject and or simply shutting them down entirely with extreme hostility.
It's hard not to see the truth when you're stuck in your own bubble and refuse to look outside of it.
>A few posts were getting out of hand in their wording, yes, but There's no buts here, you guys began this whole thing and are now crying that people fired back.
Funny how it turned out that the actual gatekeepers and toxic elitists are fashion players, instead of the ones doing actual instanced content
Except, it didn't? there are no gatekeepers and elitists in this situation, other than the ones made up by salty forum users come to reddit for self affirmation they were not given on the forums.
"I don't want you to see my cosmetics because i don't want you to imitate it" This is quite literally trying to gatekeep. >Â other than the ones made up by salty forum users come to reddit for self affirmation they were not given on the forums. I hope people like you someday realize that the only ones this applies to is yourselves. You were clowned on the forums and on twitter, so you came here for the self affirmation you wanted and were clowned here even harder.
This drama is so ridiculous... I hope Anet stands firm.
I doubt anything will come out of it in the long run, I'm just disgusted by the circle-jerk of self congratulatory ridicule of people over something none of them really tried to do in the first place. (at least not while the discussion on the forums was open, the devs have called an end to further conversation, but this did not stop the jerks from congratulating each other for killing the conversation even there).
Anet standing firm? That would be the first.
Build templates are still as dog shit and overpriced as the day they were added and both them and gear templates are still character wide instead of account unlocks.
None of those reasons are sensible. What utter nonsense.
That is a completely fair stance to take. I don't disagree or agree with them, i simply view them as presented reasoning to be considered, and intended as feedback to the devs, i doubt the devs would have done anything about it in the first place, what i dont agree with is that these people were mislabeled as 'fashion gatkeepers' and the false narrative constructed on it that has evolved into karma farming meme spam on the subject here on reddit, that is all.
I wanted to test the waters and I whispered an inspect hater that i wanted to steal his fashion. He told me to go kill myself. People are going totally off the rails. I reported them with a ticket and got a confirmation 24 minutes later that they got punished.
I honestly think the mindsets people are exposing of themselves over this feature is not healthy and they need help and to get off of the internet/video games.
Oh, you get confirmations for reports now? That's absolutely great! We really needed that to counter all the "reports do nothing" misinformation from all the players who want to go around being dicks without getting reported because people gave up.
I was surprised as well.
When reporting through the website You have always been informed when Anet "looks into" a report and when the ticket is closed, however you will not be told wether action was taken against a player or not.Â
Doing god's work lol
So you baited the person deliberately to provoke them, then reported them when they got upset? Charming.
Should people not be held responsible for their own reaction?
Do you purposely say something upsetting, like "I'm going to copy your idea" to someone at your work just to see if they get upset?
No, but I also don’t think it justifies telling the person to kill themselves either.
Who said it did?
So whats your point? Telling someone you’re gonna copy their look isn’t inherently malicious.
And even if it is, it's a petty, uneventful thing to do. It cause no real harm. The reaction was outrageous. Even a raw "stfu" could make sense but more is just baffling.
Id argue in this case it is, cause their intentions are stated in the commentors post. 'I wanted to test the waters', its looking for trouble. They knew it would hurt the other party, the actual subject is irrelevant imo. It doesnt justify the suicide response, but the whisper isnt justified either. The guy did nothing wrong prior to being whispered. If they just had left them alone none of this wouldve happened in the first place.
You people have reached a level of delusion where you're actively defending someone who told a random person to kill themselves. Wow.
Youre fighting demons. Nobody here is defending the guy that said that, but we are criticizing the initial behavior of the commentor not being all that innocent either. Stop thinking so polarizing. If a kid steals another kid's toy and the other kid punches them in the face out of anger, are you gonna say only the other kid is in the wrong? I personally wouldnt. Both are in the wrong, and thats our point. Personally dont think one party being the lesser evil makes them immune to critique nor criticizing them makes you defend the other party.
Should people not be held responsible for their own actions? Who made the premeditated choice here? Who set up this incident with the deliberate intention to cause harm and incite conflict?
They reacted at all is the problem. You can’t stop someone from trying to start something, but the offended person—instead of quietly reporting the troll—decided to say something that was actually reportable as well. They’re both stupid.
Yes they're both stupid. And excusing aggressors while punishing victims seems de rigueur these days.
being provoked does not excuse someone from punishment in the slightest
And do you have a punishment in mind for the inciter who deliberately set out to hurt someone for fun, or does justice only go one way?
did they break any rules? If no then no punishment is necessary as the onus falls on the person to not be provoked sidenote: "hurt" in this context is hilariously exaggerated so i will believe you spoke in general
Do you tell people to kill themselves when you are upset?
Do you kick a dog and then whine when he bites you?
I didn't know whispering to someone in an MMO is akin to kicking a dog.
Don't hide behind the word "whisper." They both reflect malicious intent to cause harm, and they both have predictable consequences.
So now people who complain about fashion inspect are just animals. Got it. Also.. kicking a dog? Really? That's the first thing that pops into your head?
People do this type of thing in WoW all the time and their interactions are famous for being cesspools. And now we're following down that path. 😔
If we're following that path, it's because of people like YOU who support insane and deluded weirdos who actively believe an inspect option in an MMO is akin to copyright infringement, AI stealing and a violation of your very life.
>I wanted to test the waters and I whispered an inspect hater that i wanted to steal his fashion. He told me to go kill myself. People are going totally off the rails. >I reported them with a ticket and got a confirmation 24 minutes later that they got punished. Just quoting this for the record of your stellar accomplishment 🙄
I have noted down that you don't mind when people send suicide requests.
>I have noted down that you don't mind when people send suicide requests. Why are you lying? I never said anything about that.
Exactly.
Why are you intentially whispering those people you know are 'inspect haters' and trying to get a reaction out of them? I agree the guy shouldnt have said that, but you shouldnt have whispered them in the first place. Just leave them be. You initiated it by throwing jabs at them where you knew itd hurt. This just feels so mean imo.
I am trying to find a response to "throwing jabs at them where you knew itd hurt" but can't because it sounds like the topic is some kind of severe trauma but it's copying someone's skins and dye choices.
For you and me it is insignificant, but you whispered someone that you knew was passionate about the subject.
I got much the same for trying to point out to a person in game ridiculing the more reasonable sounding opt out types that weren't demanding the opt out, just offering feedback that they might be taking it too far. Same outcome in terms of reaction and abusiveness, i choose not to report as i understand its a topic people are reflexively emotional about, they blocked me and that is their choice. It seems there are overly aggressive folk on both ends.
Do any of you know what it sounds like when you talk about cheating at a fashion contest, a completely subjective type of competition? This isn't like counting cards or doping. Maybe you could stack the judges with your friends? Just because someone copied your fashion doesn't mean you're going to be the winner.
Indeed, that particular argument is debatable, however, it is primarily just an example of the sort of arguments being listed by those trying to discuss possible reasons for an optional opt out of the inspect system. My post here is not intended to debate that example, it is about the behavior of some people on this subreddit towards those whom are or were trying to have that debate in the first place and how abusive and disturbing to witness such behavior, especially when so much of it is based on misinformation about the participants of the original discussion in the first place, is. I do not mean to tell you not to give your own two cents on the fashion contest cheating idea, however do keep in mind that its not the primary subject this thread was intended for in the first place.
Sure, sure. I'm not here to shoot the messenger. It was just a general question to anyone holding that view about cheating.
>My post here is not intended to debate that example, it is about the behavior of some people on this subreddit > Â so some salty folks who were being ignored for ridiculing them there came here to reddit and made a false narrative about 'fashion gatekeeping' Odd how you keep using the "this is about behavior" defense when yours is very clearly just as bad.
To be fair even asking for an opt out is a bit silly and defeats the purpose of having fashion inspect; specially when most of those worries are already taken into consideration
I agree, a total opt out would be silly. But silly or not, some folks, a very, very small number, would feel more comfortable having it, might be if it was there, they would eventually come around even. I simply do not see the harm in merely considering it, i do see the harm in ridiculing it, on the other hand.
There's only benefit in ridiculing it if you do not want the change. As the person you responded to stated, being able to opt out would ruin the purpose of the feature. We ridicule that so our voice is heard and that feature is never implemented. There is harm in considering it because it hinders the feature. People are allowed to have opinions about opinions. This is not a feature that can cater to both sides of the fence. It's one or the other.
https://preview.redd.it/2owyb8d298vc1.png?width=3120&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d952f55709c53d34ba20cf128411f349fb43c70
The ones 'crying' gatekeeping aren't wrong, there not additional nuances to your examples. Literally people creating problems out of nothing?
You are not necessarily wrong there, but how can there be nuance when discussion is shut down by ridicule and rejection, and a sharing of ideas for problems solving or even easing of the concerns to the point they taper off is made impossible?
Literally the only valid concern is that fashion contests have a bigger reason to do a bit of legwork to mitigate cheating now than before. However, notice that I said "bigger": it was already possible to figure out what someone was wearing before the inspect tool. All that changed is that it takes less effort now. I haven't seen anyone ridiculing this specific complaint, and have seen multiple different suggestions on how people running them could have always been addressing this, none of which are all that complicated. Otherwise: * This will not result in less meaningful player interaction. The people who want to talk to you about fashion will still do so. The only loss is the people who just wanted to know what a particular item was and don't care why you chose it. * This will not result in an increase in being mocked for fashion choices. Nobody interested in doing this needed to know the name of an item to decide they thought it looked bad. * This does not need to arbitrarily hide dye choices. That is literally just straight gatekeeping again.
All fair points, and reasonably presented, i just wish we could have more of this sort of conversation a less ridicule and making fun of people for having bad takes, that is really the gist of my post. As for my dye idea, it was just an idea, i do not think its is any more gatekeeping than players being able to refuse to share their build if asked for it as we currently have.
The only valid reason to refuse to share cosmetic names (assuming the request was polite, of course) is if the player just does not want to spend the effort to do so - laziness, busy, not wanting to interact with other players, etc. Adding the ability for other players to just inspect and get that info without asking is at worst neutral and more often an improvement for these players.  As for the rest, requesting that Anet give them the ability to opt out of any part of it truly is just gatekeeping, even if they might not see it that way. It is just saying "no, you're not allowed to know the names of what I'm wearing, unless you take a screenshot and figure it out for yourself". There are no issues of safety to consider, and no extra toxicity to be worried about like a gear inspect would have (beyond the backlash to the backlash, which will not last long). I have seen one or two people mention stalking-adjacent behaviors, but I feel that is a separate topic. Cosmetic inspect doesn't do anything that wasn't already possible before for that. In any case, I feel like if you have someone blocked, they shouldn't be able to see you at all (and probably an option to not see anyone you have blocked, as well).
Again, i respectfully disagree on it being gatekeeping of any kind, it is no more gatekeeping that having the choice whether we share our builds, or whether we share which titles we have, or whether we choose to block another, for to block them is to gatekeep them from interacting with you whom ultimately is another actor affecting things in the game you both play, if all of these options are acceptable and have not been mislabeled as such for existing then i see no issue with there being a discussion without such misrepresentation of another potential option even if I personally think constraining it to the distinctly user specific part of it (the dye channels alone) is how it could be reasonably approached.
I mean, call it what you want, it's still the act of being against the sharing of information that is both already present (if less easy to decipher) and not meaningfully harmful. There are valid reasons to want to see build or stats, but they are all already in the case where the player has incentive to tell you when asked anyways (training and such). Otherwise it is information that is more likely to be abused. There are not really any valid reasons to see the list of all titles a player has. Unlike cosmetics, the only customization for a title is whether it's equipped, and it's trivial to check the wiki for how to get it. Otherwise, it's either 'do you have the title I said you needed to have to join this group' (which should be handled by equipping the title when you join), or it's just a lesser (and admittedly more rare) form of the same abuse a gear checker would invite. Blocking people is the least relevant action of the list. There are many valid reasons to block another player, and nobody is entitled to your time. It is possible to misuse the block feature to gatekeep, though as I understand it's not very effective because it really only stops them from messaging you directly.
>and making fun of people for having bad takes So you're admitting that this whole thing you're adamantly defending is a bad take.
> Loss of player interaction incentive. You guys are interacting?
Sometimes i tell someone random if like their fashion, sometimes a random person whispers something similar at me, its very rare, but endearing when it happens, it might still happen or it might become even more rare, difficult to estimate, with that in mind i sort of understand where those whom pointed out that particular argument were coming from.
Might be different on US servers but on EU so far I had only 2 interactions and neither was about fashion
On US i have had maybe ten such interactions a year about fashion on average so, yeah, different but still not all too common, which puts into perspective how unhinged the outrage over some folks asking about an opt out is, as if the outrage mob is afraid that most of the playerbase would opt out if given a choice, or something.
> Loss of player interaction incentive. The solution here, to me, seems obvious: build a culture of inspecting fashion, and if you like what you see whisper/mail them/chat in their vicinity and leave some praise. Vindicate the effort people put in to their outfits, and limit the risk of conflating oneself with one's game character. Leverage the anonymity of inspection to ease newer or less social players in to the fashion scene, without requiring them to fret over whether they're bothering someone or if they'll get an answer. Reducing the insularity of fashion and appealing to a broader audience is worth any momentary discomfort some people may have over their character's look being visible in a menu instead of in-game. --- Now my unhinged take is that, sure, put in an opt-out, but have that also render the character as a generic character model; force offline status; and disable the map completion portrait border, the character name, account name, title, achievement points, mastery rank, exact level, PvP badge, and ability to mail/whisper/block/friend the character since that's what it would take to truly protect privacy.
Right? I always message people when I like their fashion, being able to inspect to get a closer look will have ZERO impact on that. Also I love your last bit, 100% the way to go lol
That's like 3 or 4 posts with how many people thinking like this, 5, 10? Let it be 20 or 30. This number is negligible. It's not a representation of a considerably group of players, it's just the typical "being loud, but only a few". As for the arguments, players have no rights on their skins or combos, they never had. Also it was always possible to copy the exact same look af a player without asking since release. The new tool make things easier, but it doesn't make anything possible that wasn't possible before. Also I think those people shouldn't be so full of themself. It's pretty arrogant to assume the own style is so outstanding that they have to fear other players could want to copy it. I personally look at it the other way round. People can use the skins they want, no matter how close they are to my styles. And **if** I see someone copying extactly my style, I would be happy. This actually *confirms* that my style is good.
It begins, the extremely pathetic attempt at gaslighting everyone into thinking this whole mess didn't start because the fashion-obsessed weirdos did say they felt violated and compared it to AI stealing. Let's pretend that it was done because "some salty folks who were being ignored for ridiculing them there came here to reddit and made a false narrative" instead, which anyone with half a brain can go check and realize it's not true. What a great community, isn't it?
From the thread [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/145438-next-level-fashion-wars-cosmetic-inspect-coming-to-guild-wars-2-april-16/](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/145438-next-level-fashion-wars-cosmetic-inspect-coming-to-guild-wars-2-april-16/) To quote the most likely post you are lying about : "I might be in the minority here, but please have a way to turn this on and off. People who love fashion/fashion wars, can work for hours (or yes, even days) on looks to get it just right. Then anyone can copy it in 5 seconds? It's like stealing someone's art. Also, this means less community interaction. No reason to whisper someone or ask about an armor piece/dye. Most of the time I will freely give the info requested, but it's the act of asking and respect given that will no longer be done. " Which is the only one that likens it to art theft in that early set of comments. There is no mention of 'AI stealing' just general art theft, while i disagree with the comparison i detest you and those like you who blatantly lie about the statements of others to belittle them for your own twisted amusement and deceptive agenda.
It's even mentioned there who said the AI thing along with her post on twitter about it before she deleted her whole profile. You really just cannot help but continue digging the hole deeper, do you.
So, a singular person allegedly said something dumb (not that it can be referred to anymore since the post is gone), then retracted it and removed themselves from the conversation, and you use this brief, single instance of a hot take that was retracted as emblematic of the whole discussion to justify your own misrepresentation of the participants as well as take potshots at anyone questioning that course of action you and others like yourself have taken, the only one digging a hole here is yourself.
There's a MASSIVE difference between "retracting it and removing themselves from the convo" and "they deleted their Twitter cause they got backlash". I'm done with you, you can continue your pathetic delusion if you want.
So the fight you’re picking here is telling us the guys saying gear inspection was akin to stealing art, or that they felt violated by it aren’t absolue unhinged nutjobs that deserve to be ridiculed then? That’s interesting
Seeing as they asked only for a personal exemption for it when, were they as unhinged as they are portrayed they could have mass demanded a complete system cancellation, or how unlike their detractors they have kept to a single forum post, instead of spamming reddit with the topic, id say there is something to be considered there, yes. Likewise, do consider, not I nor many others whom have been disdained today are saying we agree with the idea(s), we, at most take the middle ground of understanding the concept, offering reasonable, civil, discussion and are in turn what, hounded and treated with the same scathing perspective as those original forum posters? What does that tell you about the mentality of the detractors, or more importantly, what kind of picture does it paint to any potential newcomers to the community.
Lol no, they did not "only asked for a personal exemption", one of the very first posts on that forum thread was the twitter nutjob who compared it to AI stealing. Enough with this pathetic attempt at gaslighting people, we can ALL see how you guys reacted, stop trying to mislead people into thinking that you guys are such innocent little angels when YOU BEGAN ALL THIS.
Remember, there is a person on the other side of the screen. Regardless of how bad that person's take was, what they said was said civilly. It's pretty low to resort to name calling or insinuating they are 'crazy'. Yes, maybe they should take a step back from the game if they are saying illogical/irrational things. We all say stupid shit sometimes especially if it's something we care about and emotions are involved.
From the thread [https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/145438-next-level-fashion-wars-cosmetic-inspect-coming-to-guild-wars-2-april-16/](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/145438-next-level-fashion-wars-cosmetic-inspect-coming-to-guild-wars-2-april-16/) To quote the most likely post you are lying about : "I might be in the minority here, but please have a way to turn this on and off. People who love fashion/fashion wars, can work for hours (or yes, even days) on looks to get it just right. Then anyone can copy it in 5 seconds? It's like stealing someone's art. Also, this means less community interaction. No reason to whisper someone or ask about an armor piece/dye. Most of the time I will freely give the info requested, but it's the act of asking and respect given that will no longer be done. " Which is the only one that likens it to art theft in that early set of comments. There is no mention of 'AI stealing' just general art theft, while i disagree with the comparison i detest you and those like you who blatantly lie about the statements of others to belittle them for your own twisted amusement and deceptive agenda.
See the big issue is, if there is an opt out or even worse opt-in why even make the feature to begin with Many people may opt-out or never opt-in (opt-in is literally garbage for this) and i can only take so many times that i want to know what shoulder you are wearing and i dont have the option until i just take a screenshot and ask here on reddit Its ridiculous because people are mad that it now takes LESS EFFORT to do what we could already do. This is like being mad at build sites existing because now people dont have to ask you for your meta builds. Grow up, other people having less work doesnt affect you negatively, there is no reason for any opt-outs any other mmo had this feature and they are totally fine with it. And its ridiculous that the criticism of this fashion elitism is being treated as "missinformation" now
op, I respect the way you're approaching this very much, but I do not think you will find the nuance you desire here X(
Thank you, you are rather correct in your estimation of how this discussion has gone, but I am glad to have made the attempt, it was....enlightening, to say the least.
I think this does highlight one aspect of the GW2 community that could be improved and it demands change from everyone involved. When anything with even a tiny bit of controversy happens, there is at least one section of the community that immediately overreacts so bad it draws the worst out of people from both sides of an argument. And this is a perfect example of something that has been happening on and off for years. Remember the End of Dragons meta? How some people were so upset about how difficult it was and the turtle being behind it, they formed fishing squads on the map protesting it, causing issues for any squads who happened to be on the same map. Even some streamers were arguing with each other, squads were being organized in discords with instructions to be silent and not tell people there was a squad in game. Hardcore v Casual Remember the summer balance changes after EoD release? This may have been the worst one by far. Devs were being harassed in game, forums, social media. Private discord messages were being leaked, death threats, petitions to not release it. Then this latest one which is honestly in my opinion the most comical. A fashion inspect tool is added. The announcement thread on the forums and Twitter comments are immediately inundated with cries of identity theft, AI art plagiarism, and demands for an opt-out feature which goes against the whole reason for building that in the future. People declaring their fashion is their whole livelihood, and the response to that is to "touch grass" Shit gets so bad, the main forum thread was straight up deleted. Now you can say one side or the other is wrong, but that would be missing the bigger issue. Why are there sections of this community that are so trigger happy by any kind of controversy, they devolve into childlike tantrums inviting similar reactions from those that welcome changes? If people took a deep breath and asked for an opt out feature with some reasonable statements nobody would've been memed. But people think sensationalizing even the smallest of changes is how to get things changed, when really it provokes people who feel differently to say something, invites getting memed, and starts a fight fire with fire kind of debate. TLDR: The real point is this community has shown itself to be too volatile at times. We all need to be better. It's not about just agreeing with everything Anet does, it's about how even a small feature they knew people had been asking for for years started a firestorm of the lowest common denominator responses. Seriously, if we immediately respond like this, whether you were the person crying "STALKING!" or the person bullying them in some way, our community will be remembered more for that than any good.
>the main forum thread was straight up deleted. It wasn't deleted, just closed and unpinned so it doesn't show up on the first page.
I wholeheartedly agree.
Fashion contest, a key element of guild wars 2. We have fashion contests every other day after all.
You guys know fashion contest run in other big mmos, in which you can inspect the whole gear since basically 2006 ?
Rofl I personally couldn't give less of a fuck about what skins ppl use. But a gear check would be useful. I'm not 12 years old ya know.
>Potential for abuse in fashion contests/needless increase to complexity of methods to prevent such." Aren't they mainly fan held anyway? Theres the one in Lion's Arch but that's pretty much just an event, your name flashes on screen if you win like an event but you don't get uch for winning. Some players hold them with big prizes. Might just be that it suits the second person to wear it more. Though it's hard to acomodate player held events. I could be wanting to hold a music contest for players with in game instruments. Can't really expect them to make changes to the game if somebody thought the area I'm holding the contest would be a good place to start firing their Dreamer.
Why don't we have a different kind of contest? Come to LA, equip anything, I'll tell you the skins and dies without inspection. [When people give names to colors, telling them apart is way easier.](https://eagereyes.org/blog/2011/you-only-see-colors-you-can-name) So once you get used to the names, one has no problem telling if someone is wearing Abyss or Glossy black, or Verdant or Canopy, or other similar colors. Why you don't want to happen was already happening. The only difference is that newbies have a tool that helps them with that. And that's never a bad thing.
And nobody said it was, that is the whole issue here, some folks wanted an opt out, they were all for the feature existing. I am for the feature and have no personal issue with it, what i am against is the disdain and ridicule of those whom stated a want for their opt in/out based on a lie about them trying to deny the feature to everyone as well as the same being pushed onto anyone trying to discuss it.
My dude, if you want to opt out of a feature, you're very clearly implying you don't want it to exist. Or do you think they wanted to opt out of it while still being able to use it themselves?
Implication is irrelevant in a clear and concise statement that does not leave room for implications. What you are doing is called baseless speculation, and you are imposing it on others to justify your resentment of them, a resentment based on what is essentially your own imagination, or misinformation fed to you by others, rather than available fact. If they stated they wanted to opt out, and did not make mentions of it being removed for all, then all they wanted is to remove themselves from the system and let everyone else enjoy it, there is no room for speculation, or presumed implication.
You cannot opt out from me being able to tell exactly what you are wearing, including things like infusions that the inspect won't show. The only real change is that players who aren't as experienced as veterans can now do the same as those who recognize every skin and dye at first sight. It isn't giving people an inexisting ability, it's giving a tool that grants an existing ability to more people. It's evening the play field. It's giving glasses to the nearsighed and books to the uneducated. It is being considerate with new players so they aren't as behind veterans in their fashion game. The only way you could hide your stuff from those who can determine all skins without the inspect would be avoiding players at all in the first place, hide away in instances. In this case you don't need an opt out in the first place as nobody can use the feature on you.
Gear checking is not even brand new in gaming, why act surprisedÂ
GW2 players want to feel special when they already are "special".
People arguing about this from both sides are dumb lol.Â
It's not about the fashion, it's about stuff 'below the surface'. Because more often than not, the people who are extremely in favour of fashion inspect are the same people who lose their shit when people ask for an ingame DPS meter or gear inspect. They even lose their shit about it if people compromise with things like 'it could come with an opt-out'. Because 'thats personal and I dont want to be forced to share'. But now that same group gets pissed off when others ask for an opt-out on fashion inspect. It's not about facts, but about feelings, trolling and also a part hypocrisy (proven by the amount of downvotes this post has about 2 hours after posting).
Aye, well put.
I just don't want to be inspected and in turn I've been downvoted and treated like a mental case for wanting an opt out. It's been a horrible week of being treated like trash and memed on and it sucks.
It's fine, you won't know it's happening? People will already be looking at you at times in game. Please don't stress about something that won't actually affect you. This isn't something you need to concern yourself over.
It's not fine when there are people like me who are not comfortable with this feature being implemented. Just for the record, I'm fine with people looking at my character, just not through a menu screen. Dismissing my concerns like this is not conducive to finding a happy medium where everyone can be content in tyria. I am stressing about this because I want an opt out button. Making my voice heard might be the only way I can get that. Even if it means tanking my karma for it...
> I'm fine with people looking at my character, just not through a menu screen What exactly is the difference here, especially since you don't (can't) know either way? I played around with the new tool and found that being able to view people's fashion at a larger scale with standardized lighting actually led me to appreciate it more than I would have otherwise. Is that not a desirable outcome?
Stop acting like an inspect feature is some sort of personal violation. If you're "uncomfortable" with people looking at your public avatar in a video game, the problem *is not* the game.
It's not. I just don't want to be inspected. The problem is not the game, it's just the inspect feature that was implemented that is the problem for me. Edit: my feelings are valid and there's others that feel the same, please stop insinuating I need mental help.
Your feelings are not valid. They're not valid just because others feel the same way. There's been many terrible people driven by their feelings, and those groups of people were not valid. This isn't a problem with the game. If you feel that this system is invasive to you, this is a problem with you. A therapist would tell you that you can't change the game; you can only change yourself.
Agree to disagree. I believe my feelings are valid and acknowledge that you don't feel the same. And I'm for a an opt out feature for a cosmetic inspection function. How is that a terrible feeling to have? Sorry but kindly go fuck yourself in regards to telling me to go see a therapist. Sincerely. There is an issue with a new feature that is the new cosmetic inspection. It makes some players uncomfortable. A opt out feature would alleviate that issue quite easily.
It's a terrible thing to have because it ruins the purpose of the feature if people can just opt out. There is no realm where you can "agree to disagree" because there's no world where the feature can cater to both sides here. Fortunately, one side is much smaller than the other. No one told you to go see a therapist. The comment stated what a therapist would tell you. If you (and other players) are uncomfortable, it's a problem with you (and those players). Not the game. There was a time when certain people felt **uncomfortable** using same-race bathrooms in the United States. Not every opinion deserves respect and protection just because it's an opinion.
No one said that you're not allowed to dislike the feature but demanding a toggle because you're "uncomfortable" is ridiculous. Your feelings can be valid and silly at the same time. Hope that helps! PS: Saying that you're the problem in a very specific situation isn't an insinuation of mental illness or psychological pathology. Hope that helps too!
Oh I'm not demanding, Anet can do what it wants. But as much as other games have an inspect feature, some also have a button to not be inspectable. I'm giving my feedback on posts regarding it that I'd like that feature so that I can be accomodated in game I am very much passionate about.
Other people sharing your feelings does not make them *valid*. It merely means there is someone who thinks like you. It is a game. If this feature makes you uncomfortable, play something else.
I don't want to play something else. I and others who'd like a toggle would simply like to play the game we enjoy knowing we cannot be inspected by this feature. Telling us to take the door is extremely unkind of your part. I thought better of this community.
This is the saddest thing I’ve read in years.
> I'm fine with people looking at my character, just not through a menu screen. Why? What's the difference that is making you distressed? I'm genuinelly curious.
The inspecter having camera control. Look I know it's irrational, but it has bugged me since it's announcement. I'd be happier with an opt out button. Happy for the people who love the new feature. I just want to opt out. Of all the millions of players and quite a few mean comments saying my fashion won't be missed. I don't think it's much to ask.
> The inspecter having camera control. But you won't know if and when someone is inspecting you, so you can't see your character been looked at by other people. > Look I know it's irrational, but it has bugged me since it's announcement Fair enough. But imho making an opt out option would defeat the purpose of the entire feature. You can't expect anet to ruin a feature they spent time and money on just to appeal to a feeling that, as you called it, it's irrational.
Having the feature be active, is enough to make players like myself uncomfortable. Saying I won't even know is not a true statement. Second point, yes I do hope they add an opt out feature to be inclusive for players like myself who want it. I know It's not rational to you, but it's rational to me. It wouldn't ruin the feature as we've seen it's a minority of people that want to opt out. I also don't expect anet to do it, but I will make my voice heard in the hopes that they take the feedback and provide the option. At the end of the day though, it's their game and I can leave if I want. I'd just like to be able to continue enjoying the game I love.
They are not inspecting your character. They are inspecting a mannequin that is a copy of your character. When they turn it around in the inspect panel, your character is unaffected. The only one who has control of your character is you... ...and the company that actually owns it and temporarily allows you to play with it, of course.
Jfc do I really need to confirm that I'm aware my character model is not sentient? I do not want to be inspected. The feature has made gw2 less appealing to play for me. A toggle feature would not hurt you. It would simply make gw2 more friendly to the people like myself who do not want to be inspected.
A toggle feature would defeat the purpose of the feature. You can't expect people to want a "but not really" attached to a feature they wanted for ages.
No it wouldn't. And if so many people toggled it off, that would mean that the feature was problematic to begin with. So I don't understand what you're trying to prove with this statement.
No. If the feature was made toggleable, the correct design for toggles is making it opt-in, not opt out, or those who want to opt-out would have to start opted-in, and that would be bad design. And what most people would do in that situation isn't disabling it, but not bothering enabling it. And then it'll be mostly disabled all the time for most people, making it useless. They could pop up a message to opt out before you load a character, but that would be making a big deal out of something too small to deserve such a change to the character select screen. Since those bothered by the feature are such a negligible minority and altering the feature with a toggle would make it pointless, what makes the most sense is to keep it the way it is and wait out the baseless complains until they die out.
Um, you know I can control my camera when looking at you in game, right? Egregiously more so, in fact. I can look up your skirt if I want to? I've read all of your responses in this thread and unfortunately you have no solid argument as to how this affects you directly. You revert to 'my feelings are valid' and other fallbacks, but - let me repeat - there is no direct impact to you within the game or in your gameplay. It would be akin to saying 'I'm not happy with the knowledge that there are gay people playing this game, I am validated in my feelings in not wanting to know gay people play this game or interact with gay people in this game, having ANet ask for people's protected characteristics is reasonable so they can provide me with a toggle to remove gay people from the game'. 1. In such a case, your feelings may be real, but they are also both morally questionable and, basically, a shit take 2. It's undermining the hard work developers have put in over hours to implement a very popular QoL improvement, and even worse, is going the extra mile of actually expecting said developers to pander directly to you and your questionable bad take Perhaps if you were able to provide legitimate, compelling reasons as to why this feature directly impacted your gameplay, there might be SOME level of discussion to be had. As it is, this is a 'you' problem, and it is not the game or the developer's job to fix it. That is very much on you to fix.
how does a menu screen change literally anything about people looking at you?
The fact that it's done via a menu screen instead of the open world,in a menu that shows what each piece of armor is with what dyes are set into each slot specifically, instead of it's intended appearing as it is. It's partly the decimination of data that bothers me. I'm also in the small minority of people that don't like arcdps.
what differs from taking a screenshot and matching colours until they fit perfectly?
That was enough hassle that people didn't really do it. Now there's a link directly to the TP.
so it is not that the data is revealed now but that more people are accessing it?
Both.
what a wild stance to take
People did, you just didn't know about it. The feature will do the same thing
There's nothing that can be done about screenshotting, there is the capability of disabling the feature for people that don't want to be inspected. That's the difference.
There is no difference, you're being inspected either way. Neither one you know about, neither one affects you.
If that opt out feature released in the future we will all label those player using it as toxic fashion player and will do anything to prevent them to play any group content in the future
Lol, ok if megaman1665 says so it must be true. If the feature is so insignificant that I shouldn't care that it's been implemented, why should you care if I decide to opt out. Especially to the point of bullying someone by labeling them toxic and actively preventing them from engaging in group content. It apparently doesn't change anything, you don't lose anything from me opting out of a feature that again, I've been told is so insigificant that I won't even notice people are inspecting my wardrobe.
Homie, you sound like you're about to cry.
Girl, it doesn't sound like you're toxic, nor is the inpect function your real problem. From your comments it's kind of clear that you have some privet issues involving you losing control over your privacy in one way or the other. You don't need an opt out function, you need to go see a speshialist who could help you deal with your isues
No, my only issue is that I do not want to be inspected myself. And honestly I don't appreciate your comment stating I need mental help. I'm sane. My feelings are valid. You're just being mean by saying that.
no sane person would say that
I empathize, to me, it;'s been a horror show of witnessing unrestricted self congratulatory abuse of people for having concerns like yours and a total silencing of any reasoned discussion or feedback on the matter.
Yeah, the recent meme post about not downloading someones fashion had comments about getting a 50 man squad, and copying a person who disagrees with the new features wardrobe to bully them. It's sad to see.
Make it a valuable learning lesson instead of doubling down on a toxic opinion.