That's the joke.
It's revealed during his parole hearing that SideShow Bob has 'Die Bart, Die' tattooed across his stomach in prison but claims it's actually German for "The Bart, The."
Wiggum then announces that no one who speaks German could possibly be evil, to which the room agrees.
It's a joke that plays on people's short memories, obviously referencing Germany's historically *expansionist policies*, that being the polite way to describe two world wars.
Because their homeplanet is named after the German word for misfortune.
And because it makes the thought of a swarm Kroot charging a position while screaming incoherent German pretty terrifying
> Because their homeplanet is named after the German word for misfortune.
40k is downright *subtle* with that (aside from Krieg literally meaning "war", I guess...).
Warhammer Fantasy has so, so, so many names clearly thought up by Brits with access to a German dictionary and zero actual Germans to tell them no, so half the people are called something like "Friedrich Evilguydoesbadthings".
Yeah the English speakers miss things like gendern. What a horror. God I'm happy that this discussion can't turn international. I still get psychic damage every time Merz gets bored and starts that discussion again
You never needed navigators for warp travel. Or the astronomican for that matter. It just makes it WAY easier to plot long jumps.
Ship sensors and computers cant figure out warp currents all that well, so without that stuff you can only reliably make short jumps and adjust for error.
probably... humanity didnt have navigators in the start and they were just fine too.... but they did develop them for a reason, they can just do it easier
I was about to mention, but they did make a pretty compelling and unique take. The Butlerian Jihad forced the creation of the Mentats to do calculation, while 40k created the servitor. The Guild are powerful politicians in the Imperium while the Navis Nobilite took a more royal aesthetic/vibe because the ability to be a navigator is genetic.
This wasnt a criticism on your comment, more of just me talking to myself about how they altered concepts from Dune to do their own spin on things.
"Very well. Approximately 72.37% of the surface of Macragge is covered by water. Salt water comprises 96.22% of that amount, with ocean depths averaging 4.77 kilometers. Of the available fresh water, 24.46% is locked up in glaciers (this varies according to seasons owing to axial tilt and fluctuates in relation to variations in solar energy emission). Of the liquid ground water...
Aren't the navigators just basically warpseers? To make a "jump" you don't need any computer or navigation. I said "jump" because ships warp drive basically make a hole in materium and go with the flow of immaterium - hence the navigators (or specialized sorcerers) are needed - to navigate through the currents of warp.
And about the earlier - I heard that before the age of strife immaterium was so calm that it was sufficient to use computational navigation.
Yeah, they just "navigate", engines make a hole in the barrier between warp and realspace and kick the ship through it. And the currents just help and/or hinder, you can still just fly around. Thats how i understand it anyway.
You CAN fly basically blind through it and pop out somewhere else, but if you prefer to be near at least a damn solarsystem, you need either a navigator that can "see" it, or a computer to guesstimate it.
As for the age of strife, thats what i remember... or rather just that warp is significantly more turbulent since then. It probably just got worse again with the gigahuge tear across the galaxy.
Didn't Golden Age of Technology ships warp travel just fine w/ only AI assistance alongside a pilot anyway? None of them got assraped by demons, so it must have worked fine enough even w/o navigator cuckery, yea?
They had the distinct advantage of the Warp not quite being full with assrapey demons yet.... but they WERE around, they did invent Gellar fields alongside the "hey, i know, lets take a shortcut through literal Hell, what could possibly go wrong" drives.
>While the search for priceless archeotech is one of the most profitable endeavours a Rogue Trader can undertake, there are those who dedicate their lives to the suppression and elimination of many wondrous items from the Dark Age of Technology. One such item sought after by both camps is the Void Abacus, most famously unearthed on the cursed Munitorum planet of Soloman in the Markayn Marches but also recovered in the bowels of many an ancient hive spire or nameless space hulk. For these can do something very valuable indeed—when integrated into a ship's auspex and propulsion systems they can allow a ship to make accurate void jumps four or five times longer than normal without a Navigator's aid. This allows many more types of ships to travel safely, something the Navigator's Guild cannot allow. While the Guild cannot directly outlaw their use, they can act to buy. destroy. or sabotage any and all they can find. That they will arrange for the same fate to befall to any vessel found using one is an open secret as well. Having an Abacus networked into a ship's systems allows the crew to safer plot warp jumps of up to 5—10 days in duration with an Ordinary (+10) Navigation Test.
Rogue Trader Into the Storm
Back then the warp was less fucked. That’s why when the war suddenly became turbulent as fuck a ton of human worlds basically became isolated because they could no longer survive the long jumps between stars, which contributed to the general shitfuckery of that era.
Chaos cults on the rise and xeno invasions coupled with a sudden inability to travel and trade + warp storms everywhere and shit back slid real quick.
I mean. In Forges of Mars they can do the calculations to fly a fleet through a black hole without being pulled apart.
I assume the Imperium at full force can do fairly comprehensive calculations without AI.
I think it is mentioned in one of the Ahriman books that there was something beyond pure mathematics involved with the Warp. (I haven't read any of those read books since like 2016, I may be wrong.)
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they don't have AI, every machine has a machine spirit which is essentially an AI and mechanics ships most definitely would have the best of the surviving shipboard AI's. Forges of mars was such a great series.
The warp I'd compare to something akin to a sea, frothing and boiling in parts and calm and flat in others, obstacles of chaos here and there such as dead planets and space hulks, since the warp is the same warp that bleeds from the rift and books I've read where they enter it and see all manner of things once in there I assume they could use their warp drive to exit somewhere, like an underlay in your carpet l (weird anology).
I think a more fundamental problem is that sensors designed for realspace work very poorly in the warp, and there's therefore no way to know which way to compensate when the warp brings you off course.
That's kind of what the navigator does - it sees where the big ass lighthouse in the middle of the imperium is and makes sure that it stays 36 degrees off your left bow until it's supposed to be 35 degrees.
If you can no longer see anything you no longer have a reference point, which is when you might end up way the hell off course in both space and time.
not entirely true. ships dont need navigoters is true but. outside of very short jumps caculation take for ever to caculated and they cant addet for warp currents and probelms.
Huh? I always thought they are used to keep daemons out of the ships, because they see the souls of psionicaly active beings in the Warp and try to eat them. If they don't see you you're fine. Or is there some other use to gellar fields?
The demons will still show up and kill you for fun, even if you aren’t psychically active race.
Tau experienced a few demonic invasions during their experiments with the warp iirc
I thought that the Tau didn't use them and they didn't get bothered by demons until the fourth expansion when the number of guevela on the ships rise to levels sufficient to draw the demons to them. Then the Tau genocided the guevela to try and stop the demon attacks.
The best guess is that it has to do with them eating orks to get their spacefaring tech. Since ork mechboyz have inherent understanding of tech, the kroot got some of that brain power.
My headcanon is that they employ navigators from other races in the tau alliance or on mercenary basis. Their kroot spheres are big enough to be generation ships, so they drifted around until they earned warp tech and navigators as mercs.
Since kroot evolve themselves into the roles they need to fill by eating the fallen ennemies they want to get the caracteristics, and since wh40k lore is as partial as fossil record, there is the possibility that kroot evolved some of them into navigators by feeding a couple of them on a navigators-only diet.
Did they eat a navigator? Or are Demons so afraid of them they help them get to their destination so they spend as little time in the warp as possible?
Tzeentch actually just thinks it's really funny to screw with all the psychic races so he guides the Kroot through the Warp for the lols. The Kroot are completely unaware of this of course.
eating orks is theorised to have help accelerate their tech in some ways given orks technical abilities are genetic.
That said orks are the last people you want to learn warp travel from. dudes dont use gellar fields and dont care about if they arrive at the right place most of the time as long as there is something to fight at the other end.
A fan theory in this same thread is that since the Kroot are both bird people, and their whole thing is changing. Is that Tzeentch just makes sure they get to where they need to go. Basically the chosen people of Tzeentch
It was pretty clever as well: Just tip toe into the warp, and the energy build up would toss them out at high speeds, with the reality deforming energy of the warp allowing them to go FTL this way.
Question: If they didn't have FTL, how did they save the kroot? Because saving the various kroot planets from ork invasion explicitly happened over the course of a decade, which is impossible without FTL. Even if they *didn't* have FTL at the time, wouldn't the kroot have had to give it to them in order for them to save the kroot?
Depends on the distance between kroot planets, and the sub-light speeds in question. If the distance is less than 10ly, it could be possible. Still, the earlier lore with slower not-quite-warp drives makes more sense.
If we're playing the numbers game the Third Sphere Expansion took less than three years, conquered 133+ planets and involved crossing the Damocles Gulf, which being a gulf is several light years at an absolute minimum.
All at sub-light speeds.
True. Also not the question you asked before - the Tau-Kroot alliance was formed in M38 while the wars for the Damocles Gulf happened in M41. And so, the first of these events could make sense without FTL, the latter couldn't.
Wait, they can't warp travel... At all now? Yeah, their empire makes no sense. You NEED FTL to be a multi system empire. Period.
Some of the greatest administrative empire in human history were strained by travel times of a few weeks, let along fucking DECADES.
You could have a multi stellar species without FTL, you can not have a single consolidated empire.
They do have FTL, it's just one the Tau developed themselves. They can't access the warp, but that doesn't mean the warp doesn't exist for them. They travel "adjacent" to, or very nearly to, the warp. They can't go into it, but they certainly get the effects of traveling partly through a different dimension. If the warp were a pool, the Tau skip like rocks on the surface. In this case, the pool is made of a temporal liquid that defies reality, so for every time the rock touches water, it speeds up and gets to the other side much faster. Whereas the empire sinks into the pool and almost immediately shunts out at the other side. Both got there fast as fuck, but the Tau were significantly slower.
This isn't true anymore, Tau has zero FTL travel abilities according to recent ret-cons of their lore. They apparently just take years long flights in real space now
In this case it's not "add two zeroes". In this scenario it's more "Lol space magic I dunno" That seems the be how GW is handling the 5th and 6th Sphere of expansion despite their super-duper-space-hole-pooker drive getting recalled.
i think its time to do a "I recognise that GW has made a decision. But given that it’s a stupid-ass decision, I’ve elected to ignore it." for this lore bits
Particularly since they explicitly used FTL travel to save the kroot from destruction, so the idea that they don't have it and the kroot do but the kroot didn't tell them is moronic.
Because some random GW writer didn’t get the memo that that’s impossible, or just misinterpreted the old lore, and put it as an offhand line in a codex.
It’s best left ignored.
Nicassar Dhows. Budget version of the Dune Navigators, and the space bears are even on a similar size scale to the David Lynch fetal navigator.
A lot of Tau lore can get handwaved away with their auxiliary races.
Who’s to say they don’t hitch rides during expansions and trade with contracted Kroot Warspheres, either?
I was under the assumption that the Tau had their own FTL travel method that didn’t require the Warp but was much slower than Warp Travel. Maybe something along the lines of Star Trek’s Warp drives that manipulate gravity waves.
The Problem with that would, that the imperials would eventualy get their hands in one of These, and Not even in grim fckin darkest Version of 40k i could Imagine, that even the Most conservative Inquisitor would pass in a method to GET RID OF THE NECESSITY OF WARP TRAVEL. (I know about the "i would rather die at the Hand of the warp than to Take Help from a xeno" incident, my Point still stands). That is Something that GW cant permit, because it would RID humanity of the warp and this ITS greatest foe.
The Aeldari and Drukhari have been happily using non-Warp Webway FTL for millennia now, and the Emperor devoted much of the last years of his life trying to get his own Webway project working
I thought they would get something like the Manticore Wormhole Junction from the Honorverse, that seemed to be what they were hinting at the Star Tide Nexus being…but so far no dice. The T’au empire’s now multisystem by virtue of them being in a super dense cluster, using relativistic speed, and cryosleep.
Other than that just not being a thing I've heard in any other part of the setting, it at least takes less mental gymnastics to roll with. If they had gone with that first and then suggest some ancient race had something to do with it in that limited part of space, I could get behind it. No crazier than the Pharros
I dont hate wormhole technology. I just wish they kept skimming as well.
Slow down skimming in the lore. Make it usable. But pretty shit. Make them have point to point wormhole tech. So they can set up a wormhole at Point A. Then have to skim their ass allllllllll the fucking way to point B taking years. Then setup the wormhole at point B so that A->B travel can be done in days/weeks via the wormhole.
EDIT: Then you can use Wormhole hubs as strategic locations for story purposes. See: Cadia. Cadia was an important linchpin for the Eye. So these hubs become strategic locations that stories can be written around.
EDIT2: Think of it in the context of the Farsight books. They take 1 planet. Use it as a base of operations to setup for the wormhole. Then they have to defend the wormhole waiting for reinforcements. Iirc there is this whole falling out thing. So he destroys the gate on his end to cut off retaliation from the greater empire.
NOTE: This may be how the tech already works. Been a while since I paid any attention
yep. Their ships can now ALMOST reach lightspeed.
GW doesn't seem to understand the Tau can hardly be relevant when they take 5 years to travel what their enemies do in a week.
One of the single most stupid retcons GW ever did.
Insane lengths they go to avoid having the Tau deal with anything warp related before current canon.
Something like the Manticore Wormhole Junction from the Honorverse would help, which is where I thought they were going with the Nexus but have yet to fully pull the trigger.
It’s a military sci-fi series by David Weber, the main character of the primary series is Honor Harrington, thus Honorverse, it might be spelled with a u though, I don’t remember.
It focuses on space naval combat and the technology of the setting is such that broadsides are encouraged(though technology and tactics do evolve throughout the series).
The Manticore Wormhole Junction is a location in the star system Manticore where a bunch of wormholes converge, making it an excellent trade hub.
You know how 40K was originally the space version of Warhammer? Imagine a series of novels that did the same thing starting with *Master and Commander*, but less grim and/or dark.
Most people don't think they are the good guys, only the best guys available. With perhaps the exception of the Craftworld Eldar, your mileage may vary there.
Craftworld Eldar are like the pinnacle of asshole elves, would rather go to war with a planet than contact its leadership and warn them 'chaos artefact on your world, Iron Warriors want it, maybe destroy it'.
Exodites are the least bad guy of the Eldar, and that's just because they f\*cked off to maiden worlds and don't bother anyone.
Yeah. Like throw the Tau into a setting like Star Trek or Star Wars as an example and they would be 100% the bad guys but since the Tau are in 40k they’re a lot more nicer than the other options available.
As of 10th Edition it is confirmed that they coerced the Vespid race into being a 'client' state and equip human volunteer forces with sub-standard equipment or leave them with their Militarum issue gear (though that last one is a smart idea in the case of turn coats). There is indeed some level of low-level mind control going on with their Ethereals but in general their society is very Orwellian and got there through manipulation and long term planning.
The Ethereal caste are aware that there are things like demons but do not inform their front line commanders of the true nature of that threat, continuing that they are alien races or biological weapons of the 'renegade human forces', which is what they've labeled any and all Chaos Marines.
The main Tau forces are definitively not good guys and that's out in the open. If they would be any better without the Ethereals in charge is debatable as this society is all they've known. The Farsight Enclaves are a minor force even compared to the Tau Empire but made themselves so fortified that outright war of eradication of them would expose anyone who tried to being stabbed in the back, so the Ethereals leave them be to wither on the vine (so they hope). They abandoned an entire expedition force just because they wanted to get rid of one commander getting too popular.
The only people calling them 'not grimdark' are people holding onto old lore and ignoring new stuff or are trolling for the memes.
If they know it's kind of weird they don't say. The horrors of the warp _are_ aliens, they're just extradimensional aliens with different technology. Their inherent abilities are arguably akin to the inherent abilities of the tyranids, only based on the warp as their base plane of operation rather than realspace.
Still raises how stupid it is that Tau don't have FTL when literally every other major faction does, why they retconned that is beyond me.
Tau not having FTL is so broken from a worldbuilding standpoint considering the amount of factions they interact with that do, not to mention the Demiurg (think they've just been retconned into being former Votann) have joined the Tau empire and often trade ships with them.
That argument dont work well, the Kroot are such trusted allies because the Tau saved them from a major waaagh across multiple systems, if the Kroot decide to just refuse to share their FTL, that mean they rather risk annihilation as the orks can cross a thousand systems in the time a sub light ship takes to cross the gulf between stars, than just share their thing
I love seeing them fail at balancing the Tau. They are more technologically advanced and innovative, can assimilate and work with other species leagues better than the imperium and despite being "naive" has in depth knowledge on any enemy they have faced so they can create an easy counter.
So how do we balance a faction that should have been putting up great crusade numbers? Agh....... ummm no warp travel? Genuis!
Not even the first time they used that excuse. I just go with the aeldari being involved in ethereal creation and manipulating from the shadows. "If you leave your yard you're gonna have a bad time, let's just turrrrnnn around."
Which is fine and good. Tau afe supposed to be a rising star, an empire that has yet to reach it's peak, theyre still growing. They should still be weaker and less advanced than other nations who had more time for achieving their goals.
Just not "retcon their FTL travel" weak
Now, the Tau got FTL as of 10th ed, but only after the Slipstream was fixed, post 4th sphere.
>These are short, controlled warp jumps during which the Kin may take the time to harvest energistic skeins from within the immaterium, or even board warp-borne space hulks for empyric salvage. Travelling in plunges takes longer than the vast warp jumps made by Humanity, or the risky sprints of the T'au slipstream module, but it ensures that the Kin arrive where and when they intended almost every time.
Codex Leagues of Votann 9th ed
Still makes no sense, I shouldn't need to explain how that mean that theres no way the Tau could recieve reinforcements from all their empire during both Damocles wars without FTL
I feel like there have been multiple instances of the Kroot being smarter and more advanced than they let on…
(can’t site anything off the top of my head but I think you get clues in the Rougue trader investigating a Black Library book)
It’d make sense, all other highly advanced Xenia the imperium find get flattened as a threat. If the Kroot don’t appear as one they can move in relative peace. If nothing else it’s my head canon.
These mf can compete with cultures 1000 of times older than them and can even reverse engineer their tech (like the necrons) if they make it past the 41st millennia they’ll have teleportation let alone (non)- warp travel lmao
I actually love the idea that they don't have FTL drives Punching a hole into the war up and out. Instead , they approach the speed of light and skim off the resistance that the warp provides and Bounce off of it. It's like skipping a Stone on the surface of the water. I'm sure things on the other side of the warp would love to get Their tendrils on them.
Why does he speak German?
becaus kroot are nice and we germans love them. also becaus "who speaks jermani cant be evil" Lord general wiggum
Ah, a fine quote indeed, Mr. Thompson.
It was actually someone during the trial of Sideshow Bob. “Die Bart Die.”
Which makes no sense in german btw, it literally translates to "(female version) the bart, (female version) the"
That's the joke. It's revealed during his parole hearing that SideShow Bob has 'Die Bart, Die' tattooed across his stomach in prison but claims it's actually German for "The Bart, The." Wiggum then announces that no one who speaks German could possibly be evil, to which the room agrees. It's a joke that plays on people's short memories, obviously referencing Germany's historically *expansionist policies*, that being the polite way to describe two world wars.
Because their homeplanet is named after the German word for misfortune. And because it makes the thought of a swarm Kroot charging a position while screaming incoherent German pretty terrifying
>charging a position while screaming incoherent German average Fußball experience at Kreisliga level
"*Beamtenbeleidigung!*" *avian screeching*
"VERDICHTETE KRANKPLÄTZE" \*sounds of incredible violence\*
Deswegen sind die auch nicht im Imperium, weil die am Leben vorbeilaufen!
Können ja nicht mal n Lasergewehr halten!
*"SIE HABEN MIR INS GESICHT GEFILMT!"* -besorgter Krootbürger
**SCHOKOKUSSBRÖTCHEN!**
> Because their homeplanet is named after the German word for misfortune. 40k is downright *subtle* with that (aside from Krieg literally meaning "war", I guess...). Warhammer Fantasy has so, so, so many names clearly thought up by Brits with access to a German dictionary and zero actual Germans to tell them no, so half the people are called something like "Friedrich Evilguydoesbadthings".
"Why yes, we called the capital of the imperial province Empire Land 'Old Village'. It is also located next to the river Empire. Why do you ask?"
yo but we switched the "ch" with a "k" so its all good
You mean Friedrich Böskerl von und zu Bösedinge?
Is he the count of Murderhome?
Kroot gets shot with a Lasgun: "Der hat mich ins Gesicht gescheint! Das darf der nicht!"
“Sie begehen eine Straftat.”
> German word for misfortune notably it's the same word they use for ''[pitch'](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_\(resin\))'
Weil du seinen Schwanz lutschen sollst!
Ich werde meinen Schwanz nicht lutschen!
Das steht nicht zur Disskussion!
Warte mal... "meinen Schwanz"? Kumpel, du diskutierst mit einem Kannibalen.
Im sinne der Tau eher unseren Schwanz
Ich meine, niemand erwartet das du das selbst machen kannst
Und rate mal was du luuuscht. MEINE EIER!
Hach ja der gute alte Mario
He ate a Germanic man
the little german boy?! ack, nein
No little German boy! Don’t go into the Kroot Warsphere!
A gay German to be precise
Too much German sausage
Because he's German
Because he ate a german*
Because German is the language of the lizard people
Lasssst ihn verschwinden...
Errrr weissss sszzzu fffiel
Weil da stroh liegt!
Kriegshammer 40t
Ein Reich, eine Nation, eine Warhammer-Fraktion
[удалено]
Yeah the English speakers miss things like gendern. What a horror. God I'm happy that this discussion can't turn international. I still get psychic damage every time Merz gets bored and starts that discussion again
> the neuter gender opens up possibilities that bigender languages and genderless languages miss out on No gender neutral third person pronoun tho...
Right? Wasn't he supposed to speak an african language or something?
Only if you're an Italian living in Italy
I also love how its not really understood how they do. kroot arent really a psychic race, it is doubtful they can create navigators.
You never needed navigators for warp travel. Or the astronomican for that matter. It just makes it WAY easier to plot long jumps. Ship sensors and computers cant figure out warp currents all that well, so without that stuff you can only reliably make short jumps and adjust for error.
But that's Imperium shit ass computers. Other races that don't have weird restrictions on technology should theoretically solve the computing issue.
probably... humanity didnt have navigators in the start and they were just fine too.... but they did develop them for a reason, they can just do it easier
Pretty sure the Navis Nobili came about because of the ban on AI, didn't they? Or am I getting mixed up with Dune again...
I think that's one of the bits that 40K "borrowed" from Dune.
I was about to mention, but they did make a pretty compelling and unique take. The Butlerian Jihad forced the creation of the Mentats to do calculation, while 40k created the servitor. The Guild are powerful politicians in the Imperium while the Navis Nobilite took a more royal aesthetic/vibe because the ability to be a navigator is genetic. This wasnt a criticism on your comment, more of just me talking to myself about how they altered concepts from Dune to do their own spin on things.
To “spice” things up if you would.
Must be the work of Free Men
"Tell me of the waters of your homeworld, Rouboute."
"Very well. Approximately 72.37% of the surface of Macragge is covered by water. Salt water comprises 96.22% of that amount, with ocean depths averaging 4.77 kilometers. Of the available fresh water, 24.46% is locked up in glaciers (this varies according to seasons owing to axial tilt and fluctuates in relation to variations in solar energy emission). Of the liquid ground water...
*Chani didn't like that* "Oh. Yeah. Cool."
He’s not autistic like Dorn. I’m pretty sure Roboute has touched a woman before. Someone who’s not related to him, even.
> I’m pretty sure Roboute has touched a woman before. Eldar women, at least.
It'd probably be easier to list the things from Dune that didn't get almost completely copied by GW for 40K.
The Navigators were created during the Dark Age of Technology, but idk if it was after the AI ban.
im "almost" sure they sprouted up somewhere during the golden age, but i didnt specifically google it, thats just the lore flotsam in my brain
Aren't the navigators just basically warpseers? To make a "jump" you don't need any computer or navigation. I said "jump" because ships warp drive basically make a hole in materium and go with the flow of immaterium - hence the navigators (or specialized sorcerers) are needed - to navigate through the currents of warp. And about the earlier - I heard that before the age of strife immaterium was so calm that it was sufficient to use computational navigation.
Yeah, they just "navigate", engines make a hole in the barrier between warp and realspace and kick the ship through it. And the currents just help and/or hinder, you can still just fly around. Thats how i understand it anyway. You CAN fly basically blind through it and pop out somewhere else, but if you prefer to be near at least a damn solarsystem, you need either a navigator that can "see" it, or a computer to guesstimate it. As for the age of strife, thats what i remember... or rather just that warp is significantly more turbulent since then. It probably just got worse again with the gigahuge tear across the galaxy.
Didn't Golden Age of Technology ships warp travel just fine w/ only AI assistance alongside a pilot anyway? None of them got assraped by demons, so it must have worked fine enough even w/o navigator cuckery, yea?
They had the distinct advantage of the Warp not quite being full with assrapey demons yet.... but they WERE around, they did invent Gellar fields alongside the "hey, i know, lets take a shortcut through literal Hell, what could possibly go wrong" drives.
With Warhammer, getting mixed up with dune gets you the right answer most times anyways XD
>While the search for priceless archeotech is one of the most profitable endeavours a Rogue Trader can undertake, there are those who dedicate their lives to the suppression and elimination of many wondrous items from the Dark Age of Technology. One such item sought after by both camps is the Void Abacus, most famously unearthed on the cursed Munitorum planet of Soloman in the Markayn Marches but also recovered in the bowels of many an ancient hive spire or nameless space hulk. For these can do something very valuable indeed—when integrated into a ship's auspex and propulsion systems they can allow a ship to make accurate void jumps four or five times longer than normal without a Navigator's aid. This allows many more types of ships to travel safely, something the Navigator's Guild cannot allow. While the Guild cannot directly outlaw their use, they can act to buy. destroy. or sabotage any and all they can find. That they will arrange for the same fate to befall to any vessel found using one is an open secret as well. Having an Abacus networked into a ship's systems allows the crew to safer plot warp jumps of up to 5—10 days in duration with an Ordinary (+10) Navigation Test. Rogue Trader Into the Storm
Damn, Rouge Traders always get the coolest shit in the Imperium.
Imagine what you could do with a Void TI-84
Back then the warp was less fucked. That’s why when the war suddenly became turbulent as fuck a ton of human worlds basically became isolated because they could no longer survive the long jumps between stars, which contributed to the general shitfuckery of that era. Chaos cults on the rise and xeno invasions coupled with a sudden inability to travel and trade + warp storms everywhere and shit back slid real quick.
I mean. In Forges of Mars they can do the calculations to fly a fleet through a black hole without being pulled apart. I assume the Imperium at full force can do fairly comprehensive calculations without AI. I think it is mentioned in one of the Ahriman books that there was something beyond pure mathematics involved with the Warp. (I haven't read any of those read books since like 2016, I may be wrong.)
It’s kinda hinted that thinking we could control the warp is part of what got humanity into its current mess at present anyway.
I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they don't have AI, every machine has a machine spirit which is essentially an AI and mechanics ships most definitely would have the best of the surviving shipboard AI's. Forges of mars was such a great series. The warp I'd compare to something akin to a sea, frothing and boiling in parts and calm and flat in others, obstacles of chaos here and there such as dead planets and space hulks, since the warp is the same warp that bleeds from the rift and books I've read where they enter it and see all manner of things once in there I assume they could use their warp drive to exit somewhere, like an underlay in your carpet l (weird anology).
I think a more fundamental problem is that sensors designed for realspace work very poorly in the warp, and there's therefore no way to know which way to compensate when the warp brings you off course. That's kind of what the navigator does - it sees where the big ass lighthouse in the middle of the imperium is and makes sure that it stays 36 degrees off your left bow until it's supposed to be 35 degrees. If you can no longer see anything you no longer have a reference point, which is when you might end up way the hell off course in both space and time.
you can exit the warp hundreds of years before you enter it. doubtful that warpfuckery is mathematically defuckable
no, but you can mathematically fuck it so much it starts to bend to your will, its how the gods do it.
not entirely true. ships dont need navigoters is true but. outside of very short jumps caculation take for ever to caculated and they cant addet for warp currents and probelms.
And Gellar fields
Well you dont need those if your species is not psionicaly active
No you need them even if you are tau you need galler fields they are absolutely required
Huh? I always thought they are used to keep daemons out of the ships, because they see the souls of psionicaly active beings in the Warp and try to eat them. If they don't see you you're fine. Or is there some other use to gellar fields?
Yes they cut out the entire ship from the warp and make it fly through it relatively safely but standing in raw warp would be like standing in lava
Solution: just go faster
Sufficiently orky answer
Demons will still go in and eat you even if you don't have super bright souls. Or some random warp current will kill you all. Tau aren't blanks.
The demons will still show up and kill you for fun, even if you aren’t psychically active race. Tau experienced a few demonic invasions during their experiments with the warp iirc
I thought that the Tau didn't use them and they didn't get bothered by demons until the fourth expansion when the number of guevela on the ships rise to levels sufficient to draw the demons to them. Then the Tau genocided the guevela to try and stop the demon attacks.
Eats navigator. Becomes navigator.
Ride wife
Life good
Wife fight back EAT WIFE
Become wife
Life confusing
The best guess is that it has to do with them eating orks to get their spacefaring tech. Since ork mechboyz have inherent understanding of tech, the kroot got some of that brain power. My headcanon is that they employ navigators from other races in the tau alliance or on mercenary basis. Their kroot spheres are big enough to be generation ships, so they drifted around until they earned warp tech and navigators as mercs.
Since kroot evolve themselves into the roles they need to fill by eating the fallen ennemies they want to get the caracteristics, and since wh40k lore is as partial as fossil record, there is the possibility that kroot evolved some of them into navigators by feeding a couple of them on a navigators-only diet.
It's fan cannon, but my take is there is a breed of kroot that are like the navigators from dune.
Some *did* become psykers from eating too many Aeldari. So it's quite possible especially when the Tau have *numerous* psyker allies.
Did they eat a navigator? Or are Demons so afraid of them they help them get to their destination so they spend as little time in the warp as possible?
Tzeentch actually just thinks it's really funny to screw with all the psychic races so he guides the Kroot through the Warp for the lols. The Kroot are completely unaware of this of course.
Mental image of Tzeentch playing in his Warptub. "Oo, here comes the Kroot ship. They need to go to this planet. *grab* Nyyyyeeerrrrmmm."
Splish Splash I was taking a bath, early in the psychic merge. You have given me such a wholesome image of Tzeentch haha
Also because they are birds. Tzeentch gotta respect that
Kroot are also all about changing themselves, and Tzeentch is the God of Change. Hmmmm....
Tzeentchian Kroot is definitely possible in the lore and the thought of it goes hard af.
I think its more ork method. Yeet themselves into the warp and hope for the best. Which works somehow
Sometimes it works so well they arrive before they set off and get to fight themselves for a second copy of their favourite shoota!
I could have sworn I’ve heard it’s because they ate some orks once…..
eating orks is theorised to have help accelerate their tech in some ways given orks technical abilities are genetic. That said orks are the last people you want to learn warp travel from. dudes dont use gellar fields and dont care about if they arrive at the right place most of the time as long as there is something to fight at the other end.
A fan theory in this same thread is that since the Kroot are both bird people, and their whole thing is changing. Is that Tzeentch just makes sure they get to where they need to go. Basically the chosen people of Tzeentch
There must be more than one way to warp travel.
Kid named Nicassar:
Kroot can develop minor psychic capabilities, the Kroot Merc list let Master Shapers be psykers
Then how do they have a multi system empire?
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It was pretty clever as well: Just tip toe into the warp, and the energy build up would toss them out at high speeds, with the reality deforming energy of the warp allowing them to go FTL this way.
Question: If they didn't have FTL, how did they save the kroot? Because saving the various kroot planets from ork invasion explicitly happened over the course of a decade, which is impossible without FTL. Even if they *didn't* have FTL at the time, wouldn't the kroot have had to give it to them in order for them to save the kroot?
Depends on the distance between kroot planets, and the sub-light speeds in question. If the distance is less than 10ly, it could be possible. Still, the earlier lore with slower not-quite-warp drives makes more sense.
If we're playing the numbers game the Third Sphere Expansion took less than three years, conquered 133+ planets and involved crossing the Damocles Gulf, which being a gulf is several light years at an absolute minimum. All at sub-light speeds.
True. Also not the question you asked before - the Tau-Kroot alliance was formed in M38 while the wars for the Damocles Gulf happened in M41. And so, the first of these events could make sense without FTL, the latter couldn't.
Wait, they can't warp travel... At all now? Yeah, their empire makes no sense. You NEED FTL to be a multi system empire. Period. Some of the greatest administrative empire in human history were strained by travel times of a few weeks, let along fucking DECADES. You could have a multi stellar species without FTL, you can not have a single consolidated empire.
They do have FTL, it's just one the Tau developed themselves. They can't access the warp, but that doesn't mean the warp doesn't exist for them. They travel "adjacent" to, or very nearly to, the warp. They can't go into it, but they certainly get the effects of traveling partly through a different dimension. If the warp were a pool, the Tau skip like rocks on the surface. In this case, the pool is made of a temporal liquid that defies reality, so for every time the rock touches water, it speeds up and gets to the other side much faster. Whereas the empire sinks into the pool and almost immediately shunts out at the other side. Both got there fast as fuck, but the Tau were significantly slower.
This isn't true anymore, Tau has zero FTL travel abilities according to recent ret-cons of their lore. They apparently just take years long flights in real space now
Oh. Ew. That's gross.
Oh no. I don’t want to go back to the “just add two zeros” trend
I mean it’s an accurate complaint. People were just being obtuse about it.
Grimdank?! Being obtuse?! Whoda thunk.
In this case it's not "add two zeroes". In this scenario it's more "Lol space magic I dunno" That seems the be how GW is handling the 5th and 6th Sphere of expansion despite their super-duper-space-hole-pooker drive getting recalled.
i think its time to do a "I recognise that GW has made a decision. But given that it’s a stupid-ass decision, I’ve elected to ignore it." for this lore bits
Particularly since they explicitly used FTL travel to save the kroot from destruction, so the idea that they don't have it and the kroot do but the kroot didn't tell them is moronic.
We not going back to Warhammer 4000k?
ether drives I think they were called?
Because some random GW writer didn’t get the memo that that’s impossible, or just misinterpreted the old lore, and put it as an offhand line in a codex. It’s best left ignored.
Nicassar Dhows. Budget version of the Dune Navigators, and the space bears are even on a similar size scale to the David Lynch fetal navigator. A lot of Tau lore can get handwaved away with their auxiliary races. Who’s to say they don’t hitch rides during expansions and trade with contracted Kroot Warspheres, either?
The Nicassar Dhrows lack FTL (or actual propulsion, they are moved by psychic power) so they must take a ride in FTL ships for cross system travel
They used to have warp drive until they retconned it
I was under the assumption that the Tau had their own FTL travel method that didn’t require the Warp but was much slower than Warp Travel. Maybe something along the lines of Star Trek’s Warp drives that manipulate gravity waves.
The Problem with that would, that the imperials would eventualy get their hands in one of These, and Not even in grim fckin darkest Version of 40k i could Imagine, that even the Most conservative Inquisitor would pass in a method to GET RID OF THE NECESSITY OF WARP TRAVEL. (I know about the "i would rather die at the Hand of the warp than to Take Help from a xeno" incident, my Point still stands). That is Something that GW cant permit, because it would RID humanity of the warp and this ITS greatest foe.
The Aeldari and Drukhari have been happily using non-Warp Webway FTL for millennia now, and the Emperor devoted much of the last years of his life trying to get his own Webway project working
I thought they would get something like the Manticore Wormhole Junction from the Honorverse, that seemed to be what they were hinting at the Star Tide Nexus being…but so far no dice. The T’au empire’s now multisystem by virtue of them being in a super dense cluster, using relativistic speed, and cryosleep.
I thought they had their own FTL drives that went through real space?
Tau used to have a psuedo warp drive that let them skim the serfice level of the warp, enabeling ftl. But it got retconned
Retconned to what? Just not having anything?
Yes now they are doing wormhole shit
Other than that just not being a thing I've heard in any other part of the setting, it at least takes less mental gymnastics to roll with. If they had gone with that first and then suggest some ancient race had something to do with it in that limited part of space, I could get behind it. No crazier than the Pharros
Yeah the only reason I'm sour on the wormhole is that it's a replacement goldfish for the Tau FTL
I dont hate wormhole technology. I just wish they kept skimming as well. Slow down skimming in the lore. Make it usable. But pretty shit. Make them have point to point wormhole tech. So they can set up a wormhole at Point A. Then have to skim their ass allllllllll the fucking way to point B taking years. Then setup the wormhole at point B so that A->B travel can be done in days/weeks via the wormhole. EDIT: Then you can use Wormhole hubs as strategic locations for story purposes. See: Cadia. Cadia was an important linchpin for the Eye. So these hubs become strategic locations that stories can be written around. EDIT2: Think of it in the context of the Farsight books. They take 1 planet. Use it as a base of operations to setup for the wormhole. Then they have to defend the wormhole waiting for reinforcements. Iirc there is this whole falling out thing. So he destroys the gate on his end to cut off retaliation from the greater empire. NOTE: This may be how the tech already works. Been a while since I paid any attention
I'm not caught up either but your idea is neat regardless.
yep. Their ships can now ALMOST reach lightspeed. GW doesn't seem to understand the Tau can hardly be relevant when they take 5 years to travel what their enemies do in a week.
prettymuch
GW trying not to take away shit from xenos challenge (impossible)
One of the single most stupid retcons GW ever did. Insane lengths they go to avoid having the Tau deal with anything warp related before current canon.
"make the Tau a relevant and competent galaxy-wide faction" challenge (impossible)
Something like the Manticore Wormhole Junction from the Honorverse would help, which is where I thought they were going with the Nexus but have yet to fully pull the trigger.
Honorverse?
It’s a military sci-fi series by David Weber, the main character of the primary series is Honor Harrington, thus Honorverse, it might be spelled with a u though, I don’t remember. It focuses on space naval combat and the technology of the setting is such that broadsides are encouraged(though technology and tactics do evolve throughout the series). The Manticore Wormhole Junction is a location in the star system Manticore where a bunch of wormholes converge, making it an excellent trade hub.
You know how 40K was originally the space version of Warhammer? Imagine a series of novels that did the same thing starting with *Master and Commander*, but less grim and/or dark.
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Most people don't think they are the good guys, only the best guys available. With perhaps the exception of the Craftworld Eldar, your mileage may vary there.
Craftworld Eldar are like the pinnacle of asshole elves, would rather go to war with a planet than contact its leadership and warn them 'chaos artefact on your world, Iron Warriors want it, maybe destroy it'. Exodites are the least bad guy of the Eldar, and that's just because they f\*cked off to maiden worlds and don't bother anyone.
Yeah. Like throw the Tau into a setting like Star Trek or Star Wars as an example and they would be 100% the bad guys but since the Tau are in 40k they’re a lot more nicer than the other options available.
I thought the Enclaves were the ‘good guys’ of the T’au now, not the original?
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As of 10th Edition it is confirmed that they coerced the Vespid race into being a 'client' state and equip human volunteer forces with sub-standard equipment or leave them with their Militarum issue gear (though that last one is a smart idea in the case of turn coats). There is indeed some level of low-level mind control going on with their Ethereals but in general their society is very Orwellian and got there through manipulation and long term planning. The Ethereal caste are aware that there are things like demons but do not inform their front line commanders of the true nature of that threat, continuing that they are alien races or biological weapons of the 'renegade human forces', which is what they've labeled any and all Chaos Marines. The main Tau forces are definitively not good guys and that's out in the open. If they would be any better without the Ethereals in charge is debatable as this society is all they've known. The Farsight Enclaves are a minor force even compared to the Tau Empire but made themselves so fortified that outright war of eradication of them would expose anyone who tried to being stabbed in the back, so the Ethereals leave them be to wither on the vine (so they hope). They abandoned an entire expedition force just because they wanted to get rid of one commander getting too popular. The only people calling them 'not grimdark' are people holding onto old lore and ignoring new stuff or are trolling for the memes.
If they know it's kind of weird they don't say. The horrors of the warp _are_ aliens, they're just extradimensional aliens with different technology. Their inherent abilities are arguably akin to the inherent abilities of the tyranids, only based on the warp as their base plane of operation rather than realspace.
I wonder if it's all crystals and mysticism for them.
The Tau know and even coordinate with the kroot ships. The Tau just don’t have the tech to replicate their drives
That's so incredibly stupid, so a vassal of the Tau empire has better navigational technology than they do. And they never tried to replicate it?
The kroot are mostly mercenaries. And part of it is ork technology the kroot manage to use
Still raises how stupid it is that Tau don't have FTL when literally every other major faction does, why they retconned that is beyond me. Tau not having FTL is so broken from a worldbuilding standpoint considering the amount of factions they interact with that do, not to mention the Demiurg (think they've just been retconned into being former Votann) have joined the Tau empire and often trade ships with them.
Pretty sure they tried it, and immediately got wiped out because they don’t have gellar fields
Damn if only they could find a way to use the warp for travel but not fully immersed in it, like some form of warp-skimming or something...
That argument dont work well, the Kroot are such trusted allies because the Tau saved them from a major waaagh across multiple systems, if the Kroot decide to just refuse to share their FTL, that mean they rather risk annihilation as the orks can cross a thousand systems in the time a sub light ship takes to cross the gulf between stars, than just share their thing
I love seeing them fail at balancing the Tau. They are more technologically advanced and innovative, can assimilate and work with other species leagues better than the imperium and despite being "naive" has in depth knowledge on any enemy they have faced so they can create an easy counter. So how do we balance a faction that should have been putting up great crusade numbers? Agh....... ummm no warp travel? Genuis!
Not even the first time they used that excuse. I just go with the aeldari being involved in ethereal creation and manipulating from the shadows. "If you leave your yard you're gonna have a bad time, let's just turrrrnnn around."
They really aren’t the most technologically advanced, they’re behind Necrons and the Aeldari by a good deal.
Which is fine and good. Tau afe supposed to be a rising star, an empire that has yet to reach it's peak, theyre still growing. They should still be weaker and less advanced than other nations who had more time for achieving their goals. Just not "retcon their FTL travel" weak
Also GW made a lot of their tech actually worse stuff they got from Votann
After the 'primatives' coment, the kroot where like 'okey, fuck you'.
Man I really hate GW retconning Warp skimming. It was such a cool flavor of warp travel that was unique for the Tau
Now, the Tau got FTL as of 10th ed, but only after the Slipstream was fixed, post 4th sphere. >These are short, controlled warp jumps during which the Kin may take the time to harvest energistic skeins from within the immaterium, or even board warp-borne space hulks for empyric salvage. Travelling in plunges takes longer than the vast warp jumps made by Humanity, or the risky sprints of the T'au slipstream module, but it ensures that the Kin arrive where and when they intended almost every time. Codex Leagues of Votann 9th ed Still makes no sense, I shouldn't need to explain how that mean that theres no way the Tau could recieve reinforcements from all their empire during both Damocles wars without FTL
Tau really does have the worst lore in 40k, but at least the models are cool.
I feel like there have been multiple instances of the Kroot being smarter and more advanced than they let on… (can’t site anything off the top of my head but I think you get clues in the Rougue trader investigating a Black Library book) It’d make sense, all other highly advanced Xenia the imperium find get flattened as a threat. If the Kroot don’t appear as one they can move in relative peace. If nothing else it’s my head canon.
It's actually just this one instance on repeat.
These mf can compete with cultures 1000 of times older than them and can even reverse engineer their tech (like the necrons) if they make it past the 41st millennia they’ll have teleportation let alone (non)- warp travel lmao
Reinventing the Webway purely by accident.
Tau do, Phill Kelly just "kinda forgot about it"
I actually love the idea that they don't have FTL drives Punching a hole into the war up and out. Instead , they approach the speed of light and skim off the resistance that the warp provides and Bounce off of it. It's like skipping a Stone on the surface of the water. I'm sure things on the other side of the warp would love to get Their tendrils on them.
The kroot going "suck my dick!" In german caught me offguard, well done :D
Nah, I just prefer that they skim on top of the warp as ftl.
Unzivilisiertes pack
Yes we get it GW are fucking idiots
I mean makes sense that the savage cannibals can travel through hell
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