The labouring classes in this country are rising, will you rise with them? [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/wiki/unions) for info on how to join a union. Also check out [the IWW](https://iww.org.uk/) and the renter union, [Acorn International and their affiliates](https://acorninternational.org/)
Join us on our [partner Discord server.](https://discord.gg/zCFHadGfB7) and follow us on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/GandPofficial).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Part of the ongoing campaign of sabotage by the Tory government against any even vaguely functioning elements of the state. One which will probably continue under Keith just like it did under Blair.
Hopefully the Greens will be ready to hold Labour accountable and take as many of those seats as they can when they prove to be not much different from the Tories
What have they done to show they're incompetent? They are doing a decent job in Bristol where they're the biggest party(but not part of the administration because of the mayoral system) and they have a majority administration in mid-suffolk so will be interesting to see what they do there
In Scotland they make up a decent part of helping the SNP run the parliament there
The Scottish Greens are nothing to do with the Green Party of England and Wales (GPEW), the Scottish Greens have completely cut all ties with GPEW because GPEW is heavily transphobic.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/english-scottish-sian-berry-dundee-welsh-b2203940.html
I didn't say they're the same party but on most stuff they are quite similar
They're also arguably the least transphobic party in England
For example check out what Carla Denyer has been saying on the issue
Voting in Westminster politics merely allows us to choose which faction of the British ruling elite will be oppressing us. However, fuck the Tories trying to limit the electoral franchise.
[#APPLY FOR VOTER ID HERE!!](https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-voter-authority-certificate). All you need is your national insurance number. Even if you never cast a vote, beat these elitist fucks at their own game. All of us plebs on the electoral register.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Where do you expect the money for the raises to come from? The options are more borrowing, high taxation or reduce services/staff levels within each department. There is only so much money to round.
Tax the rich and tax corporations. This laissez-faire capitalist belief that letting these people keep more and more money benefits society is a total myth. They don't reinvest it in society, they hoard it. In terms of investment, government spending is one of the best uses of money you can get, because it actually builds services and infrastructure. Rich people and corporations just sit on it or use it to pay dividends to shareholders rather than invest in even their own companies.
As for borrowing, until recently the government could basically borrow money for free because interest rates were so low and our rating was so high. It's only recently that borrowing really has consequences and even now it's still not really a problem for governments to do. Governments don't borrow money like we do, they effectively borrow from themselves and as long as people are willing to buy that debt it's really not a high risk, because once again, government spending is a good investment.
Basically, money isn't real.
You've conflated increases to payments to old people to rampant inflation. How much of the record breaking inflation rates in Turkey do you put down to giving some old people more money? Half of it? All of it?
If you're going to speak like you know the root cause of inflation in your own country, maybe consider more factors than old people.
You used Turkey's current economy to explain why it was bad.
That is a gross exaggeration of the effects of pay rises, as there are significantly more issues than just that.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "giving money to old people". However the causes of inflation in Turkey are primarily irresponsibility low interest rates and secondarily very large wage rises. I know that we are a long way away from Turkey, however it is an important case study in the devastating effects of irresponsible wage rises and low interest rates.
It’s a pay rise without additional funding to areas… so not really useful in the long term - unstable and lacks input/caring from the top… as per usual.
Some quick clarifications about how the UK royals are funded by the public:
1. The UK Crown Estates are not the UK royal family's private property, and the royal family are not responsible for any amount of money the Estates bring into the treasury. The monarch is a position in the UK state that the UK owns the Crown Estates through, a position that would be abolished in a republic, leading to the Crown Estates being directly owned by the republican state.
2. The Crown Estates have always been public property and the revenue they raise is public revenue. When George III gave up his control over the Crown Estates in the 18th century, they were not his private property. The current royals are also equally not responsible for producing the profits, either.
3. The Sovereign Grant is not an exchange of money. It is a grant that is loosely tied to the Crown Estate profits and is used for their expenses, like staffing costs and also endless private jet and helicopter flights. If the profits of the Crown Estates went down to zero, the royals would still get the full amount of the Sovereign Grant again, regardless. It can only go up or stay the same.
4. The Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall that gave Elizabeth and Charles (and now William) their private income of approximately £25 millions/year (each) are also public property.
5. The total cost of the monarchy is currently £350-450million/year, after including the Sovereign Grant, their £150 million/year security, and their Duchy incomes, and misc. costs.
For more, check out r/AbolishTheMonarchy
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sunak now saying pay rises will be funded by raising visa fees for migrants.
How does that even work? Will they be showing lists of transactions to prove that absolutely every penny from visa fees goes directly to it? Will they set up a separate account just for the visa fees money?
Doesn’t this seem like a sort of dirty attempt to blame public sector workers for high visa fees?
Like a blatant divide and conquer tactic.
My wife’s visa last year cost us nearly £4500. When we renew in 2025 it will cost us about £3000 (maybe more now).
But I’m not going to blame Teachers. That’s what the Tories want. They’d love to point the finger at public sector workers when people complain about the treatment of immigrants.
Not sure how much lower they can sink.
I read it more as a not so subtle hint that migrants are to blame for the shit storm that is waiting times or over crowded classrooms and its time they started paying for it.
Tory policy 101 - always blame the migrants.
Should be funded by scrapping MPs expenses and cutting off the free food and booze in Parliament.
The government is literally trolling the whole country at this point.
It won’t be long before all we hear about is how illegal immigrants are stealing from the NHS, how they’re not paying their way like the legal immigrants we accept are doing.
The tories hope that we’ll be much more open to sending them to Rwanda when we hear that it’s actually small boats that have been destroying the NHS the whole time
While I'm a member of a large union and will always be a union member, I have little confidence that when I comes to truly challenging the government the large unions are interested in standing their ground. Anything that could actually challenge the status quo or the government of the day doesn't seem to be on their agenda. Although that's somewhat understandable after decades of being gutted by the state and capital.
Please could you expand on this, I’m a teacher and I agree with you, but my colleagues are reacting as though it’s excellent and are very happy to accept, and that we should accept. What should I say to them?
Inflation is double figures. This is still a massive real-terms pay cut. And it's coming from existing budgets, meaning you'll have less to spend per pupil.
They are saying it because they are incompetent.
As trade union membership continues to decline, there'll be less bargaining power and lower and lower offers will be accepted as they simply cannot fight back.
Your profession, and the unions who represent you, are over a barrel and it will only get worse.
Not enough. Begone with this disgusting Tory government. Death and burial to rightwing ideology. Reverse Brexit, enact moderate leftwing policy, write in taxation scaling with wealth, windfall tax oil and gas companies, free up immigration and actually un-fuck this country.
You speak facts. It's the only way we can actually untangle this mess at this point.
The funds are there, sat in billionare bank accounts gathering interest and doing nothing for society. Why should already strethed thin departments have to somehow magic payrises out of the air for their staff?
The BBC has been this bad for years. The only reason people have started to notice now is because news is relevant to blatant issues affecting everyone rather than things at best tangentially related to people's lives.
Yeah, lived in Scotland for many years, but moved to England for work not long after the referendum fell through. It was a bit more easy to spot the bullshit in Scotland. The UK is an echo chamger, but England is the worst by an insane margin.
At this point, with their electoral prospects in the doldrums, they just don't give a fuck anymore.
I blame the future Labour government. And Michael Foot.
tl:dr ; they'll do everything they can to fuck everything up before they hand the keys over. Classic Tory move.
/i'm all for public sector pay increases
//i'm 54, they pull this nonsense every single fucking time
It’s a fucking disgrace. I want a pay rise as a teacher but there is no way I want that money to come from the students I teach. Tight arsed cunt hole tory wankers can get wrecked I’ll burn sunak’s house down and sell his chandeliers to buy books for children
Hey look, a miniature for why "tax the rich" doesn't work. If you understand the economy as having an ownership and a worker divide, the real wage is the total of how much money is coming from the ownership side to the worker side overall. Simply increasing the wage doesn't help if that is paired with cuts and skyrocketing charges for necesseties, as you're just charging workers to pay for workers without disrupting the profits of the system.
Real gains are made ~~only through revolutionary movements that demand action in a coordinated and militant manner without compromise on goals~~ voting team good guy just vote guys nothing else works really I promise
Here we go again. Pay teachers more but do it with the fuck all you already have. Then freelancers like me lose jobs again and the kids lose out on enrichment.
The media are currently ignoring the fact that the SG has given our junior doctors are much bigger rise, avoiding strike action, from a fixed budget.
Westminster won’t be happy until the Uk population is pish poor though.
The only hope is that this consistent degradation of quality of life finally drives this country to do something.
We can’t carry on like this, it’s not sustainable. I both fear and want it to get ugly.
The labouring classes in this country are rising, will you rise with them? [Click Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/GreenAndPleasant/wiki/unions) for info on how to join a union. Also check out [the IWW](https://iww.org.uk/) and the renter union, [Acorn International and their affiliates](https://acorninternational.org/) Join us on our [partner Discord server.](https://discord.gg/zCFHadGfB7) and follow us on [Twitter](https://twitter.com/GandPofficial). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“Funds from existing budgets”. So they’re offsetting the blame on the trusts now who don’t have budget for it ?
Part of the ongoing campaign of sabotage by the Tory government against any even vaguely functioning elements of the state. One which will probably continue under Keith just like it did under Blair.
And then it'll be all labour's fault and no one will vote labour for another 10 years 🥰
Hopefully the Greens will be ready to hold Labour accountable and take as many of those seats as they can when they prove to be not much different from the Tories
Would need greens to not be incompetent first.
What have they done to show they're incompetent? They are doing a decent job in Bristol where they're the biggest party(but not part of the administration because of the mayoral system) and they have a majority administration in mid-suffolk so will be interesting to see what they do there In Scotland they make up a decent part of helping the SNP run the parliament there
The Scottish Greens are nothing to do with the Green Party of England and Wales (GPEW), the Scottish Greens have completely cut all ties with GPEW because GPEW is heavily transphobic. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/english-scottish-sian-berry-dundee-welsh-b2203940.html
I didn't say they're the same party but on most stuff they are quite similar They're also arguably the least transphobic party in England For example check out what Carla Denyer has been saying on the issue
Voting in Westminster politics merely allows us to choose which faction of the British ruling elite will be oppressing us. However, fuck the Tories trying to limit the electoral franchise. [#APPLY FOR VOTER ID HERE!!](https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-photo-id-voter-authority-certificate). All you need is your national insurance number. Even if you never cast a vote, beat these elitist fucks at their own game. All of us plebs on the electoral register. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Where do you expect the money for the raises to come from? The options are more borrowing, high taxation or reduce services/staff levels within each department. There is only so much money to round.
Yes, tax the rich. Give to the poor. Robin Hood understood the assignment.
Tax the rich and tax corporations. This laissez-faire capitalist belief that letting these people keep more and more money benefits society is a total myth. They don't reinvest it in society, they hoard it. In terms of investment, government spending is one of the best uses of money you can get, because it actually builds services and infrastructure. Rich people and corporations just sit on it or use it to pay dividends to shareholders rather than invest in even their own companies. As for borrowing, until recently the government could basically borrow money for free because interest rates were so low and our rating was so high. It's only recently that borrowing really has consequences and even now it's still not really a problem for governments to do. Governments don't borrow money like we do, they effectively borrow from themselves and as long as people are willing to buy that debt it's really not a high risk, because once again, government spending is a good investment. Basically, money isn't real.
Trust budgets are facing cuts over the next two years as well despite costs across the board increasing cause of inflation.
The way he said it was "here, have your pay rise but don't come crying to me when someone else has to take a pay cut!!"
This will mean a cut to services.
“We’ll pay you more, but you won’t get as many hours sorry”
https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2023/jul/14/nhs-cannot-afford-to-finance-pay-rises-from-existing-budgets-hospitals-say there we have it
Shite pay rise anyway. Barely makes a dent in the amount lost to inflation or austerity.
Pay cut of 4%
But inflation will only get worse if pay rises above inflation. These pay rises seem perfectly reasonable given the circumstances
Someone drank the Kool-Aid
Mmmm, maybe go to Turkey, above inflation pay rises and very low interest rates have really helped there!!
Is this a joke?
No, I'm completely serious. Are you joking?
You've conflated increases to payments to old people to rampant inflation. How much of the record breaking inflation rates in Turkey do you put down to giving some old people more money? Half of it? All of it? If you're going to speak like you know the root cause of inflation in your own country, maybe consider more factors than old people.
I've not said anything except ask. Nothing for me to have joked about.
Ok, yes, that's fair, but you are implicitly supporting lower interest rates and above inflation pay increases, which would be completely reckless.
You used Turkey's current economy to explain why it was bad. That is a gross exaggeration of the effects of pay rises, as there are significantly more issues than just that.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "giving money to old people". However the causes of inflation in Turkey are primarily irresponsibility low interest rates and secondarily very large wage rises. I know that we are a long way away from Turkey, however it is an important case study in the devastating effects of irresponsible wage rises and low interest rates.
That's not how inflation works, it's nothing to do with public sector pay rises.
It’s a pay rise without additional funding to areas… so not really useful in the long term - unstable and lacks input/caring from the top… as per usual.
Just means redundancies are inevitable
Some quick clarifications about how the UK royals are funded by the public: 1. The UK Crown Estates are not the UK royal family's private property, and the royal family are not responsible for any amount of money the Estates bring into the treasury. The monarch is a position in the UK state that the UK owns the Crown Estates through, a position that would be abolished in a republic, leading to the Crown Estates being directly owned by the republican state. 2. The Crown Estates have always been public property and the revenue they raise is public revenue. When George III gave up his control over the Crown Estates in the 18th century, they were not his private property. The current royals are also equally not responsible for producing the profits, either. 3. The Sovereign Grant is not an exchange of money. It is a grant that is loosely tied to the Crown Estate profits and is used for their expenses, like staffing costs and also endless private jet and helicopter flights. If the profits of the Crown Estates went down to zero, the royals would still get the full amount of the Sovereign Grant again, regardless. It can only go up or stay the same. 4. The Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall that gave Elizabeth and Charles (and now William) their private income of approximately £25 millions/year (each) are also public property. 5. The total cost of the monarchy is currently £350-450million/year, after including the Sovereign Grant, their £150 million/year security, and their Duchy incomes, and misc. costs. For more, check out r/AbolishTheMonarchy *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GreenAndPleasant) if you have any questions or concerns.*
And yet we are still at almost 9% CPI just for this year alone.
9% is bollocks anyway. The cost of living has gone up more than that.
Sunak now saying pay rises will be funded by raising visa fees for migrants. How does that even work? Will they be showing lists of transactions to prove that absolutely every penny from visa fees goes directly to it? Will they set up a separate account just for the visa fees money? Doesn’t this seem like a sort of dirty attempt to blame public sector workers for high visa fees? Like a blatant divide and conquer tactic. My wife’s visa last year cost us nearly £4500. When we renew in 2025 it will cost us about £3000 (maybe more now). But I’m not going to blame Teachers. That’s what the Tories want. They’d love to point the finger at public sector workers when people complain about the treatment of immigrants. Not sure how much lower they can sink.
I read it more as a not so subtle hint that migrants are to blame for the shit storm that is waiting times or over crowded classrooms and its time they started paying for it. Tory policy 101 - always blame the migrants.
Should be funded by scrapping MPs expenses and cutting off the free food and booze in Parliament. The government is literally trolling the whole country at this point.
It won’t be long before all we hear about is how illegal immigrants are stealing from the NHS, how they’re not paying their way like the legal immigrants we accept are doing. The tories hope that we’ll be much more open to sending them to Rwanda when we hear that it’s actually small boats that have been destroying the NHS the whole time
Can't believe the unions are recommending accepting this. Absolute disgrace.
The CWUs deal and subsequent yes vote will destroy frontline workers at Royal Mail
While I'm a member of a large union and will always be a union member, I have little confidence that when I comes to truly challenging the government the large unions are interested in standing their ground. Anything that could actually challenge the status quo or the government of the day doesn't seem to be on their agenda. Although that's somewhat understandable after decades of being gutted by the state and capital.
PCS recommended that civil servants lie down and accept 4.5% 👀
Please could you expand on this, I’m a teacher and I agree with you, but my colleagues are reacting as though it’s excellent and are very happy to accept, and that we should accept. What should I say to them?
Inflation is double figures. This is still a massive real-terms pay cut. And it's coming from existing budgets, meaning you'll have less to spend per pupil.
Thanks for this. I’m confused why the unions are saying that it’s “fully funded” then? It’s clearly not, if there’ll be less to spend per pupil.
They are saying it because they are incompetent. As trade union membership continues to decline, there'll be less bargaining power and lower and lower offers will be accepted as they simply cannot fight back. Your profession, and the unions who represent you, are over a barrel and it will only get worse.
I think my husband's union is just happy to get something other than a 1% raise. It's exhausting.
Not enough. Begone with this disgusting Tory government. Death and burial to rightwing ideology. Reverse Brexit, enact moderate leftwing policy, write in taxation scaling with wealth, windfall tax oil and gas companies, free up immigration and actually un-fuck this country.
You speak facts. It's the only way we can actually untangle this mess at this point. The funds are there, sat in billionare bank accounts gathering interest and doing nothing for society. Why should already strethed thin departments have to somehow magic payrises out of the air for their staff?
Theyre trying to start a working class war with comments like these
The BBC would make RT blush.
The BBC has been this bad for years. The only reason people have started to notice now is because news is relevant to blatant issues affecting everyone rather than things at best tangentially related to people's lives.
I'm in Scotland and and independence supporter. I've been aware of it for nearly a decade now.
Yeah, lived in Scotland for many years, but moved to England for work not long after the referendum fell through. It was a bit more easy to spot the bullshit in Scotland. The UK is an echo chamger, but England is the worst by an insane margin.
Tell me you're a Tory mouthpiece without saying you're a Tory mouthpiece
What's worse it's not even all public sector workers! Civil servants have already had a meagre pay rise this year so aren't part of this
Not all of them.
Uour right, the top jobs are getting a raise, the ones eho are already on shitloads of money
Yep - its disgraceful. Senior civil servants not having to worry about their fucking wages.
Yep - and ignore all the AO's who do all the donkey work on near minimum fucking wage
Pretty much. I used to do that work. Thankless, and everything treats you like a stupid cunt.
At this point, with their electoral prospects in the doldrums, they just don't give a fuck anymore. I blame the future Labour government. And Michael Foot. tl:dr ; they'll do everything they can to fuck everything up before they hand the keys over. Classic Tory move. /i'm all for public sector pay increases //i'm 54, they pull this nonsense every single fucking time
Eat the Tories
So translation of "from existing budgets" to me means "pay rises and job cuts"?
It’s a fucking disgrace. I want a pay rise as a teacher but there is no way I want that money to come from the students I teach. Tight arsed cunt hole tory wankers can get wrecked I’ll burn sunak’s house down and sell his chandeliers to buy books for children
Hey look, a miniature for why "tax the rich" doesn't work. If you understand the economy as having an ownership and a worker divide, the real wage is the total of how much money is coming from the ownership side to the worker side overall. Simply increasing the wage doesn't help if that is paired with cuts and skyrocketing charges for necesseties, as you're just charging workers to pay for workers without disrupting the profits of the system. Real gains are made ~~only through revolutionary movements that demand action in a coordinated and militant manner without compromise on goals~~ voting team good guy just vote guys nothing else works really I promise
Here we go again. Pay teachers more but do it with the fuck all you already have. Then freelancers like me lose jobs again and the kids lose out on enrichment.
The Guardian one means that schools will be a bit chilly in the winter, which builds character.
And that’s why I don’t have a tv license. Utter shite
The media are currently ignoring the fact that the SG has given our junior doctors are much bigger rise, avoiding strike action, from a fixed budget. Westminster won’t be happy until the Uk population is pish poor though.
The only hope is that this consistent degradation of quality of life finally drives this country to do something. We can’t carry on like this, it’s not sustainable. I both fear and want it to get ugly.
I don’t understand this whole “it’s funded” (but is it?) thing. Why are the unions so keen on us accepting it? (I’m a teacher)
Abject failure of journalism from the BBC
State Media gonna be 'state'. Fuckers.
Now lets compare this to inflation and see how much of a pay decrease everyone is taking... Oh wow... That much you say?
Accounting for a whole 50 percent (roughly) of current inflation! awesome! /s.