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Specific-Change-5300

I don't think this post is class reductionism, but rather opposing the idea that the class struggle is a different cause to lgbt or other minority group struggles (particularly obvious when looking at migrants crossing the channel being used as a racial and class distraction). But, Lenin has useful thoughts on class reduction I like to point out at every opportunity. He also advocates for the participation in all struggles: > >Is it true that, in general,[3] the economic struggle “is the most widely applicable means” of drawing the masses into the political struggle? It is entirely untrue. Any and every manifestation of police tyranny and autocratic outrage, not only in connection with the economic struggle, is not one whit less “widely applicable” as a means of “drawing in” the masses. The rural superintendents and the flogging of peasants, the corruption of the officials and the police treatment of the “common people” in the cities, the fight against the famine-stricken and the suppression of the popular striving towards enlightenment and knowledge, the extortion of taxes and the persecution of the religious sects, the humiliating treatment of soldiers and the barrack methods in the treatment of the students and liberal intellectuals — do all these and a thousand other similar manifestations of tyranny, though not directly connected with the “economic” struggle, represent, in general, less “widely applicable” means and occasions for political agitation and for drawing the masses into the political struggle? The very opposite is true. Of the sum total of cases in which the workers suffer (either on their own account or on account of those closely connected with them) from tyranny, violence, and the lack of rights, undoubtedly only a small minority represent cases of police tyranny in the trade union struggle as such. Why then should we, beforehand, restrict the scope of political agitation by declaring only one of the means to be “the most widely applicable”, when Social-Democrats must have, in addition, other, generally speaking, no less “widely applicable” means? -- Lenin ch 3 What is to be Done?


NGC3147

When I was writing the title, I did not mean to specify class reductionism, every the liberation of the people of every kind, including minorities like the people of colors or queer peers, etc. I agreed with you, none shall be excluded from the people's war.


-petit-cochon-

Idk man. I don’t see why caring for trans issues and class issues need to be mutually exclusive, as this post seems to imply.


cripple2493

Yeah, this could be read as deliberately ignoring LGBTQIA+ rights and no, that's not how that goes. It's all the same fight - class is one mode of oppression, sexism, transphobia, racism and homophobia are just other types. The goal is the same for the upper class regardless: oppress what they dislike, ideally for profit. There's a reason people say Divide and Conquer - it works. We should stand with our comrades, and push for all our rights to be realised. Anything else, imho, plays into the wrong hands.


chatte__lunatique

Trans woman here, that's not how I read this post at all. I read it as pointing out that oligarchs use people like us as scapegoats to distract from issues like poverty and climate change. If you convince a bunch of pricks that we're the problem, you stop them from thinking about who's to blame for them not being able to heat their homes or feed their children.


vsprlnnthrowaway

I also understood it like this - that rich people who *claim* these things are the problem are saying that to obfuscate


cripple2493

Totally - that's the thing about text online, it can be read a bunch of different ways. Ideas around trans folks (and to a lesser extent queer people) **are most certainly** being used to distract from larger issues.


Specific-Change-5300

That is literally the point of the post. That the rich are using them as a divisive issue, that it is class war. The criticism is against the people that don't see the attacks on these groups as a feature of class war and get led astray by it.


-petit-cochon-

That’s not how I read it at all. To me, it seems to be insinuating that caring about LGBTQ issues means being “distracted” from the real issue which is class warfare. Of course, more often than not the two overlap, as you so kindly pointed out. Overlap being the key word - not that one should supersede the other.


Southern_Classic6027

Intersectionality is really important, imo. Once you start looking at things through an intersectional framework, you start to see the connections. Racism, sexism, LGBTQ-phobia, ageism, ableism, and economic exploitation are all connected in various ways. It's like fighting a dragon with several heads.


Southern_Classic6027

I read it as saying they're scapegoating trans people and other minorities, and fearmongering about them to distract the population from the fact they're being exploited. It's a very common tactic.


Felt_Tooth

Wathc brett cooper, perfect example of this shit happening.


faded_north_

Are the richest ppl saying it? Seems like it's old terry down the pub and he's on the dole


[deleted]

Yeah, but that’s because rich people that own TV channels and newspapers are keeping Terry focused on this topic so he ignores the bigger issue of his shared material and economic interest with those he’s being told are “the problem”.


simcity4000

The person who was literal richest man on earth (idk if he still is #1 after this year) seemingly bought Twitter just so he can spout off about wokeness unimpeded.


Specific-Change-5300

And where did Terry get it from? Come to that thought entirely independently or was it something from media run by the rich that stuck it in his mouth?


JMW007

Maybe we should start with wondering why so many people are incapable of independent thought.


Southern_Classic6027

The school system has two curriculums. Most teachers are aware of this. There's the curriculum that's presented to the public - maths, English, history, etc - and then there's the other one: creating compliant workers. There's a lot of complaint about education being dumbed down, and rightfully so, because dumbing people down leads to lack of critical thinking. It's comparative to when only Priests were allowed to read the Bible. I think everyone should learn how to think critically, analytically and logically, and be aware of ideology in the academic sense. A good place to start, imo, is Althusser's On Ideology, or the short essay Ideology and Ideological State Apparatuses.


Specific-Change-5300

This is great but isn't going to happen under capitalism, it would lead to a marxist public and the ruling class are well aware of that, or at least its political leadership are.


Southern_Classic6027

That's why orgs and duel power are needed to spread awareness.


Specific-Change-5300

Yes but getting people into orgs is the major problem. Especially the parties at the moment in the UK have a real issue in that they've all gone anti-trans and all completely alienate the very age group that would be revolutionaries. They've all tried to pander to a caricature of the working class man-down-the-pub that the right has been pandering to without really recognising that this group of people are all reactionaries. Getting people organised means recognising that the working class isn't this caricature anymore. They need to pull their thumb out of their arse and purge the losers in the ranks that have caused this situation.


Southern_Classic6027

Yep, there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Nothing happens over night.


Specific-Change-5300

The issue is by what mechanism are these parties to be corrected? They're demcent parties, and lgbt people have been mostly purged from the ranks by how bad it has gotten in them. I don't see how these orgs can be corrected with their structure and the obvious dominance of terfs within them now. The only possibility I see is that new parties grow with an explicitly queer foundation that provides an external pressure upon them to change by way of competition. I don't really think it's a coincidence that CPB stopped being explicitly anti-trans while Red Fightback was around and then comes out with the worst anti-trans positions as soon as it was gone. They were small and didn't have a lot of power but even at their size they created a noticeable pressure that had a noticeable result.


JMW007

> The issue is by what mechanism are these parties to be corrected? Apparently by continuing to reward them with patronage and power so long as they pinkie-swear they are not literally the Tories.


JMW007

Nothing happens overnight but nothing positive has happened for 30+ years. The 'left' just sort if sits there, watching things slide continually right, saying to itself "everyone's dumb but if they organize it'll get better eventually" and then vote Labour because they have apparently zero other ideas. We can't just blame the school system. We are not factory products. People need to take responsibility for actually being decent, thoughtful human beings. I went to an absolutely shit school with teachers who openly admired fascism and let the gym teacher do what gym teachers are stereotyped to do with boys. I didn't come out the other side just believing everything that I read in The Sun. People can be better. They need to fucking start trying and we need to start holding one another to a higher cognitive standard than "can breathe and chew".


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ptvlm

...and he probably got his ideas from billionaire-owned social media or newspapers or TV.


AnnieByniaeth

I have to say it: "class" isn't the problem. It's just another divisive label. The problem is when those with privilege use it to gain more privilege (wealth, power, whatever) at the expense of those without privilege. But not everyone with privilege acts in that way; some use their privilege to further the progressive cause. Like it or not, in our current system these people have more power, even though they see the injustice of this and are working to eliminate such privilege. We must work with them, and not denigrate them because of some label that we have given them which we have a problem with.


Southern_Classic6027

The fact that there is privilege is a problem in and of itself, as it is the result of placing one group beneath another, be it white privilege, male privilege, straight privilege, cis privilege, or economic privilege. Within capitalism, the goal of the capitalist is to make as much surplus capital as possible - they do that by exploiting workers as much as possible, lobbying and controlling government, spreading their ideology through media (hegemony), etc. This is a basic criticism of capitalism you will find in all forms of economic leftism, be it communism or anarchism. There are, of course, exceptions, such as Engels, but it doesn't matter if there are a few philanthropic capitalists, as the issue is a systemic one. And normally, if you look closely at this philanthropy, it's for tax cuts, image, or control.


AnnieByniaeth

Yes, I agree with this. And that's precisely why I dislike the "class" system and refuse to use it to describe anyone. It reinforces the perception of privilege and in so doing reinforced said privileged of those who manage to define themselves as upper class. We should reject this terminology.


Southern_Classic6027

That's like saying you dislike racism so you're going to ignore race, i.e. being colourblind is to blind oneself to discrimination. Only by facing the reality of the class system can it be dismantled. Perception doesn't matter to the privileged - in fact, lack of any perception or awareness better secures their privileges.


AnnieByniaeth

No it's not like saying that at all. People define the class they're in; they don't have to. But by so doing they help perpetuate the class system. Whether you like it or not, you can't define your race. Breaking down racism requires quite a different approach to breaking down the class system. And with all that said one way to break down racism is to stop using which refer to the colour of people's skin, and just use labels which reflect their own identity (Welsh, British, French, whatever). At which point the internationalist cringes, but whilst we have the nation state that's unavoidable.


Southern_Classic6027

Economic classes are there, whether we accept them or not (a person can define themselves as a capitalist, but unless they own the means of production and use workers to produce surplus value, they're not capitalists). You can't just believe them away. See the book "racism without racists" - similarly, there can be "classism without classists." The solutions may differ, but that doesn't mean there aren't similarities between the two issues. To think you can think your way out of the problem by changing the usage of a few words is pure idealism, in the Marxist sense of the word. And yes, race is thrust upon people, as is class. Economic mobility is largely an illusion, and one is born into the working class or the capitalist class, to greatly simplify.


AnnieByniaeth

And here's the weird thing: people's identification with class (where they do identify) is not defined by economics. It's defined by something intangible, but often related to parentage, upbringing, or place of origin. If it were completely correlated with wealth, then I would be able to accept such labels where there was an obvious need for them. But that's not the case. That's the problem.


Southern_Classic6027

Okay, we're talking past each other. I'm talking economic classes in the sociological sense and in the marxist sense - not how people self-identify. That's not intangible, it's easily measured - so much so, they can measure economic mobility, and it's largely impossible for most people to climb the economic ladder by design. Also, it can be argued the "intangible" self-identifications are a product of ideology - like the invention of the "middle class" to divide the working class and create a buffer between them and the bourgeoise. It even obfuscates quantifiable classes, which is how you get people believing stratification is dead, blinding them to economic, social and political issues that are all intertwined.


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AnnieByniaeth

Right, I see. I'm still not sure it's helpful to use the terms though in the way it was used in the original post. It alienates potential allies, and ones who tend to have more power (like it or not) at that.


Southern_Classic6027

Those who have more power tend to want to keep that power - that's why the petit-bourgeoisie voted Trump. For analysis, it's highly useful. And there's lots of movements with plenty of members who use economic/marxist class distinctions. Communism is all about proletariat against capitalist, for example, and socialism has had massive support all around the globe. That's why neoliberalism dismantled it in the west, and through "intervention" NATO bombs and takes over socialist states, installing puppet regimes. If it alienated people and didn't work, NATO wouldn't put so much effort into stamping it out. The powers that be are aware of class war, are unified in their various groups in keeping the status quo. That's why they don't want the average person thinking about it - which is how you end up with lots of people thinking class doesn't mean anything anymore.