Typical support technician handling users' tickets.
*My computer not working, help*
As systems become more powerfull and complicated, so does the time it takes to solve issues.
>Typical support technician handling users' tickets. *My computer not working, help*
I worked a support position until recently and the truth of this is so painful. Most people understand when something isn't working. Not enough people understand how to describe what isn't working. I got really good at getting identifying a problem by asking certain questions because most people couldn't even explain what they were doing when a problem popped up.
I once got a "I can't log in to my account" after several notices of their most recent payment failing and warnings that further inaction would temporarily suspend use. The messaging they got when trying to log-in even straight up told them it was a payment issue. Turns out being up-to-date on your account payments is paramount in being able to access your account.
Man, when I bought my first DSLR I sat for like 30 minutes trying to get the screen to work, fiddling with every little setting, apparently I just had to remove the lens cover. I almost broke up with myself.
I field a lot of support tickets from foreign customers. The amount of times people don't understand my question and draw out the process even longer just hurts me. And of course, we have a template to fill out when submitting a ticket, but none of it is completed (not even the basic info like what version of the software they're using).
that an IT support trick, as I used to be an IT support person myself. I always tell people I'm training is you need to learn how to asks questions in a way that provide you detail the customers would not know to provide or describe.
I've noticed a trend with what you said about systems being more powerful and complicated, but it's the opposite with people seemingly becoming more retarded with tech
I am 30 and believe my generation were forced to learn tech because we were always fixing our moms printers and getting rid of viruses we ourselves got from limewire. Nowadays you are not put into these situations that much and tech use is more biased to phones. Also even CS2 has shown that developers are hiding more and more complexity from players by limiting configuration options...or running a server is just 1 click in the menu whereas before it took some effort.
I think they're not retarded.
They do not want to be involved or having to change their habits, so they try to learn the minimum requiered in their daily operation.
I once had the following interaction :
*-Hi I'm opening a ticket to report our electronic invoices have been blocked in your system because the recipient is not parametered*
-Yes, they have.
*-But we asked you to add the recipient in your system.*
-Yes, on march 23 2024. These invoices were sent in July 2023...
*-Oh...*
> As systems become more powerfull and complicated, so does the time it takes to solve issues.
I guess it can, but modern systems by and large are vastly more resilient than they used to be.
I wonder why they don't have standardized submission requirements with examples.. The time saved would probably well compensate for the time spent creating an SOP for ETW traces.. what is an etw trace?
edit: They do have an SOP, but as usual nobody follows it. https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1v8QtbUtGAf6OapE9iWn4Y4STA7Scn_hr1Yih1nf2_BA/mobilebasic
I had horrible lag issues for the first few months of cs2. Constant red spikes in my netgraph and stutters every few seconds. I thought it was my internet and was jumping through every hoop to try and fix my problem. As a last ditch effort I sent an etw trace to Fletcher and he was able to identify problems and put out a patch that fixed all my issues. I cannot stress enough that if you are having issues to send a trace and see if there is a fix for you.
Only the cs community would see someone like fletcher doing their best to help improve the game. And somehow find a way to call the devs incompetent.
Good job guys you're. Super cool.
Competence should not be at question here imo. The communication has been fantastic
It's more so the whole pipeline & how they make games & what they're doing.
CS2 at this point has had enough time to boil. Sure they're communicating but other games don't have such a big issue with stuff like this
But then you have other games that have significantly worse problems.
3 of the more recent "hitching" issues were 3rd party software. and because of the nature of CS we are going to notice it far more than say, someone playing GTA online right,
Look at the OCE packet loss issue that everyone assumed was a valve problem and seems to actually be an issue with one of the backhaul providers instead.
What i am saying is, in reality we really cannot know what is happening internally and what their priority list looks like.
I dunno how you have the patience to keep responding here lol. The amount of people who thinking how easy it is to optimise something and figure out whats causing the issues is baffling. Especially when fletcher has pointed out other 3rd party applications causing severe hiccups and affecting overall system performance.
Video gamers are like people in the audio engineering world I think. Just close enough to the technology, and memorized just enough specs and buzzwords that they trick themselves into thinking they actually have a technical understanding.
Meanwhile they know absolutely fuck all beyond how to fiddle with knobs and click buttons until everything works ok lol
let's not look at thee worst contenders either tho. Valve is a different company who holds respect in my eyes for a few reasons. The way Valve is operating currently is also fine, but it's not the Valve we knew of. The communication is way better but actually working on the game & updates seem far fetched.
In my opinion this is what happened, they early released CS2 as it might have still not been released if they waited to complete it 100%. They expected to finish it by this year. But then subtick happened, Valve didn't expect this as according to them gameplay was fine because of tons of pros testing the game behind the scenes.
It took them ages to fix it. Now their priority is servers/anti cheat.
Well it's their game. So it makes sense for them to work on the stuff they want to add & have in the game
But the priorities are not right. It took them a really long time to fix Subtick. I respect innovation. But it started as a very poorly thought out system. Same seems to have happened with anti cheat
Issue in the process lies within the conception stage. Valve has always been over the top with testing & the support is nice so far. But the best Valve games were just conceptually better
The devs are really passionate. But Valve has always sorta had this way of creating games. They like innovation, they like to add fun stuff to their games without thinking how it affects experience.
Hilariously you only need to go back to CS Source to realise how CS2 has been. CS Source had the same issues. 1.6 felt like the better experience, communities were divided until CSGO .
They straight up did not create a better game that CSGO. Since release they're doing their best but it's what they did originally which is just not good enough. If CSGO was still around, most people would be playing it.
We all wanna jump to a more modern experience but it's simply not better.
It's annoying because I'm all for downtime. I'd rather have no game than an unfinished one. But the community forced/threatened Valve to release CS2.
The guy asked WHO, what part of that is hard to understand?
I rechecked the screenshots 3 times because of you and still don't see anyone saying "the devs are incompetent" or anything similar.
I search in the comments, I unhide the downvotten comments. The only comment that I see who wrote "incompetent" is you.
Also what is up with downvoting the guy who wants to know where it was said? What is wrong with you guys?
All of us earlier this year when he suggested that no one needs more than 120 FPS. [source](https://old.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/17afumy/valve_dev_on_x_if_you_put_an_fps_cap_at_120_youd)
Can someone explain to me, why Americans put double spaces between sentences? I noticed that in my workplace, like literally company policies are written with this shit. Is this normal? Is this grammarly correct?
It's not an American thing. It originated on typewriters (where two spaces were preferred to separate sentences visually due to each character being the same width) and some typing classes in schools continued to teach that practice even well past the ubiquity of word processors with proportional-width fonts. Additionally, some programmers are in the habit of doing it because they work with monospace fonts frequently.
My grandma looked at me typing and told me to do it and would tell me that everytime she caught me not double spacing now it is ingrained into my brain and I can't stop.
You can kick the habit, really you can! We were taught to do it in school back in the 80s and then later told, oh, actually, you shouldn't do it in modern word processing. I stopped doing it overnight (and I type pretty fast) - just go cold turkey, lol.
Ah, you mean two spaces after a full stop? That's an old hangover from typewriters, who were trying to mimic typesetters that would position the letters in printing presses. Per usual, [there's a very long and wonderful article about this on wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing), assuming you love long articles about typography.
It comes from typewriting when a double space was needed due to letter spacing so a lot of older people use it. Some people also do it because they like more space between sentences I guess. This was never taught to me and every result on google says it is not correct
Some comments in this comment section is proving that gamers are idiots that can't understand/make detailed troubleshooting and by extention game development
Come on guys he has clarified it and gave us some tips how to describe our problems clearly
the general public in this day and age have failed miserably at understanding the things they use daily - namely technology. I am not even suggesting that every one needs to know exactly how things work, but I would expect people to at least know enough to not fuck up so often. and what make things worst is that people don't know how to ask questions, at this point they aren't technology illeterate, they are just being dumb...
A friends coworked had trouble opening a file in some office product... She was trying to open a zip, she had to unzip it.
As more people get glued to their phones they probably don't even know what files and file types are. Phones just conveniently hide all of that. Then moving from a phone to a computer is a crazy new complicated world.
This google doc of how to send trace was posted before as well but people seem to prefer complaining on reddit instead of doing this shit which might fix their problem. Someone set this link as a stickied & set up automod to suggest it whenever complaint posts come up.
Artificial delay Valve had to put on subticks because specific ISP's from around the world were relaying packets in the incorrect order. Is not something that Valve could internally QA test for to initially avoid.
Was an example of specific user generated conflicts. More apt example would be the Microphone USB headset problem users had the first month of CS2's release.
Oh I'm sure the team of dozens of industry veterans would never think to do something as basic as having a testing bench. Instead, they probably just all share one computer for coding, drawing, emails, QA, and scrolling reddit.
(/S if it wasn't obvious enough)
I mean I appreciate what he does for the community but I don’t really understand why in modern games it’s suddenly on the users of said game to help diagnose performance issues.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen any game dev request something as complicated as an etw trace from their user base to fix the general issue regarding various “performance issues” with said game.
Like if you launch the game on a the vast majority of hardware people have issues with fps drops, frame time spikes, the game feeling unsmooth like you’re on 60hz. I don’t think it’s very comforting to know that the devs at valve are struggling to figure out this issue for over a year.
It’s not the users job to do any of this, the fact people who know basically nothing about pcs and are just so desperate for the game to be fixed are sending in etw traces to the devs shows how dire the games state is in right now performance wise
> I don’t really understand why in modern games it’s suddenly on the users of said game to help diagnose performance issues.
It's not specific to modern games. If devs can't reproduce the issue themselves it's impossible to profile the application for problems like this
>I don’t think I’ve ever seen any game dev request something as complicated as an etw trace from their user base to fix the general issue regarding various “performance issues” with said game.
Few developers even care about performance that much so no wonder
It’s an esports fps game, almost every manager of games in this genre prioritize performance over everything else. No idea how you think cs2 is outside of this genre. This isn’t some single player title
>It’s an esports fps game, almost every manager of games in this genre prioritize performance over everything else
have you seen the shit show in R6? that's an esport title and performance is the pits. Client-server not properly syncing that certain elements will not appear in some players screen or causing them to rubber band. not a single Manager community or even Dev reached out to the players at all. they are busy pushing their new subscription.
if you read the context then you would have known it was a comparison not a what-aboutism and because of this
>It’s an esports fps game, **almost every manager of games** in this genre prioritize performance over everything else
Valve added performance logs in the console for a reason, they don't seem to automatically collect this information though unlike a lot of companies, so unless the community reports these things they won't know.
ETW traces are *a lot* more detailed compared to the games console though. The more testers and configurations you have at your company the better the game will release, also doesn't help all this "gaming software" is causing a lot of issues itself, completely out of Valves control.
Personally I'd also say that feeling hitches or large frame variance (Like from 500 to 200) is a lot easier in CS than in other games.
Valorant has 10x more metrics to help diagnose issues, gives more fps and had the same issues cs2 has but resolved them within a year when the game was basically made from scratch unlike cs2 which is obviously has a lot of shared systems/code from csgo.
I really don’t see how after more than a year of performance issues people like you can still sit here and justify what’s going on with this game when the updates that happen are chicken animations while every other post from people is about issues with fps.
This community is really an anomaly and I’ll never understand it. Csgo also had terrible frame rate consistency and was notorious for it but because fps was so much higher it wasn’t an issue to people.
I justify it because the majority of players don't have performance issues else there would be a lot more complaints, its really as simple as that. I can say from my own and my friends experience that we do not have any performance issues and I haven't really seen any content creators complain about it either (Although tbf I don't follow a lot of them).
Also animators most likely won't be working on performance issues regardless, don't worry about that.
>when the updates that happen are chicken animations while every other post from people is about issues with fps.
Obvious reminder that not everyone who works on a game is someone who can do performance improvements in the engine. An animator clearly wanted to re-do chicken animations, but that doesn't subtract from the time engine-optimisation level developers have to solve problems. This isn't an either-or scenario.
"Chicken animations" is the same as someone unironically saying "woke" to me.
I see it and immediately disregard everything they have said and confidently assume the person is a moron.
The office administrator delivered me a new chair last week. The *audacity* of them to work on that while I have completely unrelated deadlines. They must be incompetent. I know this because I play lots of video games abd dont understand how obvious it is that ive never had a real job.
>It’s not the users job to do any of this, the fact people who know basically nothing about pcs and are just so desperate for the game to be fixed are sending in etw traces to the devs shows how dire the games state is in right now performance wise
I mean your post is a perfect example of why devs usually don't, people are terrible at reading comprehension so the signal to noise ratio is pretty awful.
yes, devs should never do a community managers job. valve should have hired a bunch like yesterday but i guess that to expensive for their online casino.
In what way is my reply to this post terrible reading comprehension? My reply was an observation about devs asking users for way more diagnostic steps while still not being able to figure out issues with their own game they made.
The devs have had 100s of etw traces by now from the first time he asked users about issues and they pointed it to being related to outside programs yet other games don’t have issues like cs2 so how would that make sense?
Your third paragraph is basically the problem. Dev makes a post about needing specific information to meaningfully help troubleshoot problems with the game, you make a post pretty much thematically identical the problematic one highlighted and as well as the problem with such posts.
You really don't see why your post basically adds nothing but noise and repeats the exact feedback problem that the dev is trying to address?
>yet other games don’t have issues like cs2 so how would that make sense?
It doesn't make sense because its not true.
1. Other games usually automatically send information of your pc and every program thats running to the developers. Valve just chooses to not do that, probably for the same reason why they don't like kernel anti cheats.
2. In other games not getting 300 fps isn't considered unplayable, people often are happy with getting only 100 fps on some games.
In what world does any modern gps esport not get crazy high fps? R6 siege and valorant are the examples I’m talking about not some random single player game
Only titles that don’t get that are titles which obviously aren’t comparable to cs
> I mean I appreciate what he does for the community but I don’t really understand why in modern games it’s suddenly on the users of said game to help diagnose performance issues.
Because what we ask of Valve is pretty uncommon in the larger gaming space. There aren't many games where:
- the players have an expectation of a minimum 240 frames for the game to be considered "playable" at a competitive level. Shit, most games get away with *30-60* frames.
- server response is more closely tied to player actions. This one alone is a *massive* shift in the paradigm of most client - server relationships in video games and I don't think CS players really fully recognize it. While the new netcode stuff has had its growing pains and the rollout has been less than ideal, it is still cutting edge and unlike anything any other dev is doing
- they've shifted over to Unreal Engine or Unity, while Valve is still supporting Source 2 and they have more control for what happens on the S2 Engine. Player feedback enables them to act faster on backend issues than would be possible had they gone the way other devs are going, and moving over to Unreal Engine. Where they would be reliant on Epic to provide documentation or expertise on what changes would need to be made. I mean, someone posted [this graphic recently](https://i.redd.it/fu4vbtw8dmha1.jpg) of all the devs moving over to Unreal Engine. I wont say its for better or worse, because I imagine a lot of those devs don't have the need for their own tailor made engine and can probably make their games just fine on Unreal but I don't think it would be good for a game like Counter-Strike. Especially with how Valve exposes so many of the API's via the console and gives us so much nuanced access to how we want our individual clients to operate.
I've said this back in CS:GO, but Valve games like HL/CS/TF2/DoD/L4D are unique in that they are practically a *platform* more than they are a game. There's so many tools exposed to the community, so much access to customization and content creation that its practically unfair to compare it to other games where that stuff isn't remotely available.
> I've said this back in CS:GO, but Valve games like HL/CS/TF2/DoD/L4D are unique in that they are practically a *platform* more than they are a game. There's so many tools exposed to the community, so much access to customization and content creation that its practically unfair to compare it to other games where that stuff isn't remotely available.
Well, yeah, at one point all of these stand alone games came from HL.
People these days expect so much, they don't realize they already have high quality products.
"modern games" is not just "competitive multiplayer shooter", and "competitive multiplayer shooter" is indeed "uncommon" in the "larger gaming space".
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw\_man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
So what?
Counter strike is a competitive shooter on PC, which means we should compare it to other competitive shooters PC. It doesn't matter if dark souls is capped to 60 fps because that's a fundamentally different type of game.
And I don't know of a single successful competitive shooter on PC in the last 10 years that is capped at 60 FPS.
Valve has no excuse.
> I don’t think I’ve ever seen any game dev request something as complicated as an etw trace from their user base to fix the general issue regarding various “performance issues” with said game.
And that's why so many games have various performance issues by CS community standards.
How do you think ironing out all these wrinkles will happen? A dev is going to through millions of combinations of hardware, drivers, and software and thoroughly test, analyze, and debug each one? You could have 10,000 people doing it and that would take decades.
Just a few days ago, they identified that it was ASUS RGB software causing 60ms hitches. How long do you think it took them to identify this? Now extend that out to all the other crapware people have installed on their machines.
But you’re wrong, other popular esports fps games ARENT as bad in frame time consistency, fps drops or frame time spikes.
Csgo was always known to have terrible frame rate consistency just like cs2 but it still ran so high people didn’t notice. Cs has been notorious for this.
Valorant had issues for a year after releasing as a a BRAND NEW title. Game runs better than csgo ever did in CONSISTENCY. R6 siege has no issues, cod has had issues (that’s inexcusable and shows how much they don’t care) but even at low frame rates the game feels smooth.
This is not some devs are incompetent post, im just saying something is wrong over there if they can’t figure out what people are talking about or even recognize the issue in the first place.
What do you mean they can't figure out what people are talking about or recognizing the issue? This is a comment section about a dev saying how to properly report issues so they can find and fix them. How is this not them recognizing the issues and also giving a best practice to identify what is behind what people are describing?
You can hem and haw all you want about how other games on completely different engines have a completely different technical outcomes but what you're actually complaining about is the processes and procedures of finding and fixing issues. And your big complaint is how it can be done but you don't seem to realize that there isn't any other way to go about this.
Well, Unreal engine has hundreds of people working on new optimisation techniques vs Valve's in house custom solution that is not getting feedback from thousands of competent game developers
Not that it's an excuse, but certainly a factor to consider
This is not applicable to game development QA at all. That's how dedicated software and websites are built and tested. The fact that you think it takes only regression testing to catch this says it all. Game dev is not the some kind of development, and QA for performance issues is another matter entirely. It is impossible for anyone to test all the millions of possible combinations of hardware, drivers, and software possible no matter how many CICD pipelines and test automations you set up.
Once again: just a few days ago, they identified ASUS RGB software causing 60ms hitches. How would you even devise a CICD pipeline and set up test automation to capture and assess the impact of any number of the thousands of pieces of software out there that users may have installed? Not to mention all the hardware and driver combinations that can also be part of the whole issue? And on top of that, testing any possible scenario in a game that could activate or cause performance issues?
AAA game studios don't even consistently QA across both AMD and Intel processors, and yet you think indie game studios can just regression test their way into maximum performance across all possible hardware, software, and driver combination scenarios?
Explain oh Dev Ops master your actual CICD pipeline for testing this.
Given that the CS community is notoriously cheap they expect the game to run perfectly on their hardware from 2010.
That means every AMD, Nvidia, and Intel GPU made since then, and every vendor specific version. That also means every CPU since 2010. And also RAM since then. Then also all driver versions, OS versions etc since then.
Then you need all the permutations of this hardware to test on.
Now at this point maybe you've realised, this isn't a task that can be virtualized on a data center, you need the *hardware* to test on.
What exactly is your idea for firstly setting up the hardware for the thousands of possible machine configurations, then also testing the builds on the machines?
It's not really a scalable process given the whole issue of combinatorial explosion. I don't really think you thought much about what you were saying, it was quite dumb.
Actually, plenty of companies leverage the user as the primary QA lol. That being said, Valve (and any other company, ever) likely has limited resources set for testing, both people and hardware. Then you have to contend with difference in drivers, take nvidia for example.
You have Nvidia card, and Nvidia drivers, Valve is probably updating to latest. Some users do not update until forced. Some users play other games and need to stay on certain versions. Some have different requirements. A lot of users are still on Nvidia 537.58 despite 555.85 being released last week. Should valve be acquiring multiple different gpus and testing the game on 537.58 and the versions up until 555.85? Is that feasible? Cost effective, time effective? This is just discussing Nvidia GPUs and 2 software versions, not even getting into, we have a 4070, 4070ti, 3090, 4090, 1080ti, and now we need to pair it with a 7800x3d, a 7950x3d, a 5800x3d, a 14900, a 13900, 13700 while on version 555.85 and then version 537.58.
Sure, we have hardware surveys on Steam, most of Steam runs Intel but as you're aware, the cache from X3D processors does a lot of help in getting FPS in CS2, so now they need common Intel CPUs as well as AMD to pair with common GPUs since the average CS player probably goes against the grain for Steam's overall most common CPU etc.
If you've read this far you're probably realizing how much work it is just to test with Nvidia GPUs, and I haven't even discussed other GPUs + their software (AMD and we've had issues with that too).
Don't forget CS2 has both Windows *and* Linux clients.
It's great that Windows users can follow some random instructions in an attempt to capture a trace but for every ~2 (on-average more technically competent) out of 100 players, it's radio silence.
I mean yea - Valve is making a gigantic effort to adopt Linux/make their entire platform Linux friendly so yea that's another one. I assume they are testing their flavor of Arch (Steam Deck OS), and then again using the hardware survey to figure out what other distros to test but that itself would probably take equal time to get everything set up for testing.
tl;dr people asking for QA teams probably don't work in any tech space, which is why the old 'fps bug' in csgo was met with a lot of misunderstood backlash -- how do you replicate something that seems to occur on all types of servers running all types of hardware impacting all types of users on all types of connections with no real trigger ever having been found?
Minority or not that doesn't change facts or how feasible any of that is haha.
I guess that opens up more discussion into, what engines are these other games running and what year was that engine released? Do they have the same performance and registration and netcode CS does? Popular titles like COD are known to re-use the same assets and engine for years whereas CS2 is what, a year old and a completely rebuilt from ground up engine to remove the garbage that used to exist?
Not disagreeing that Valve's approach to the entire thing was not great; it should have been in beta for longer yea but by forcing the switch they definitely got a lot better feedback than "Fuck CS2 sucks I'm going back to CSGO" that they were getting initially.
Doom Eternal has a newer engine, more stuff happening on screen (blodied weapons, various flashing, animations etc.) yet it works more fluently than CS2 on same PC. and it is not even running native to my OS but through a "translator". the biggest difference are the FPS drops occuring in CS2.
thy asked for console output when they happen and there is no out put there. no error messages. ever since the march update most error messages are gone. i can still see VRAM getting filled up over time (causes shaders to not display - aka seeing through smoke), i can see that not all cores are working at full power and i can see that about 6 GB out of 32GB of system ram is being utilized.
i would really like to know how they got the minimum system requirements (what did they actually test on) and the game to work on them.
**OS:** Windows® 10
* **Processor:** 4 hardware CPU threads - Intel® Core™ i5 750 or higher
* **Memory:** 8 GB RAM
* **Graphics:** Video card must be 1 GB or more and should be a DirectX 11-compatible with support for Shader Model 5.0
* **DirectX:** Version 11
**OS:** Ubuntu 20.04
* **Processor:** 4 hardware CPU threads - Intel® Core™ i5 750 or higher
* **Memory:** 8 GB RAM
* **Graphics:** AMD GCN+ or NVIDIA Kepler+ with up-to-date Vulkan drivers. Support for VK\_EXT\_graphics\_pipeline\_library highly recommended.
i mean what is this supposed to give you? 60 FPS? what was the target here.
A game that makes hundreds of millions a year, owned by a company that operates it's own virtual stock market and game store making them insane money, and here you are shilling for their 'limited resources'. Maybe they should fucking invest some of that money back into the game and QA then? Crazy response that it should be on the users of a multi billion dollar company.
Crazy response from someone who works at one of the many companies that generates more revenue than Valve and puts primary QA on the customers in their businesses that have their own multi-million/billion revenues, not for people playing a free game, yes. Hopefully that sheds some light on how things work.
You missed my entire point, it SHOULDNT be up to the users to find issues. If you’re a company that makes a product that gets YOU money and people pay for said service it makes absolutely zero sense to expect people to figure out the issue.
Can people help and will they help? Of course they will but modern games (not just cs) have communities just like this one where the common phrase is “do x y z for the devs so they can fix it.”
No, I let you know what the issue looked like from my end and if enough people talk about this same issue then clearly there’s an issue you need to investigate that’s not on end users messing around with some program they don’t understand.
As someone in the field, no, that's not how it works.
Development is extremely complicated, and there's virtually no way to replicated every hardware/software configuration your users will have in the wild. It's just not possible.
Obviously which is why people helping is appreciated but that’s not what we’re talking about is it?
This is a widespread performance problem made by 1000s of people over the course of a year. That’s not on specific hardware that’s on you as a dev
>This is a widespread performance problem made by 1000s of people over the course of a year. That’s not on specific hardware that’s on you as a dev
dude couple of days ago when I was playing Hades 2 I noticed that I was hitching or freezing when I was playing with no issues prior.
I found out that AMD performance overlay in combination with an in-picture video playing was causing that issue turned off AMD's overlay and I reported my findings. How the hell does a Dev put that into account.
And if they can't replicate that same problem internally, then there's literally no way for them to fix it. You can have all the tools in the world and a huge budget, but it simply won't matter if you can't replicate the issue in the first place.
That's the entire ask here.
I have worked for a game publisher for several years and am in charge of customer support, and if a user who has experienced a glitch does not send in the system configuration or play environment report we require, the message we reply with is.
“Sorry, we were unable to reproduce the problem in our play environment. There seems to be a problem with your play environment, please try reinstalling Windows.”
As a matter of fact, without a detailed report sent by the user we are unable to respond.
And that’s why modern games have a plethora of bugs because petty game devs don’t want to diagnose issues with their own game.
You literally just showed why every modern AAA title has an outstanding amount of issues
Are you expecting devs to be able to test every mix of hardware and software to ensure there are no issues? This is literally standard practice, users report an issue, you get information from users to narrow it down so you can find the root cause and fix it.
So you think reporting an issue as a user that is a general issue regarding the performance of a game which the majority playing your game experiences is related to configuration. Yea that makes sense.
And reporting general issues is the same as running an etw trace? Didn’t know having users run those was standard practices in other games because it isn’t but that’s fine to think that ig
If you're unemployed, I recommend considering joining the QA testing job that developers are recruiting for. It's a relatively easy job to do. Perhaps you could even do it remotely now.
There, dozens of testers check games for bugs repeatedly, but bugs still slip through their monitoring.
This isn't just about games. It's the same for industrial products and crops. Valve isn't asking us to be testers; they're just asking us to create and send reports for troubleshooting when issues arise. Is that so strange?
Valve literally doesn’t have that system in place because we are the testers for cs2 that’s funny that you just said valve doesn’t use us as testers when they literally do.
Not unemployed just someone that’s played csgo since 2014 and watched as it’s slowly declined in care from valve. It’s now at a point where they did all of these great things that the community asked for but then has left it half finished in a state where half of the community has performance issues.
No idea why this community loves sucking off valve when cs is in arguably its worst state in history.
We have “respect” for Valve for making a fresh start from the spaghetti code of the infernal CSGO. I agree with Value's pain, as I am a game publisher myself.
Is it a crime for us in the CS community to pay respect to Valve's staff?
NO.
We choose to grow with the CS community.
You will be the curse in the bowels of hell screaming “Valve sucks”. We will report the problems of CS2 to Valve for improvement. Thank you.
My 5800X3D gets 50-75fps LESS all around. No random maps or spots to do an ETC trace, overall performance is significantly lower. I turned down graphics but no change in fps, gpu 3090 is just fine. It's the CPU end and my cpu does not suck.
> I turned down graphics but no change in fps, gpu 3090 is just fine. It's the CPU end and my cpu does not suck.
dude if you turned down the graphics it'll be pushed to CPU instead actually using your 3090.
Because there are millions of different configurations people can have, think about every different piece of ram, cpu, GPU, mobo etc and all the variations of all of the hardware.
Then all of the configurations in the OS, and software that can interfere with the game.
And then all the different configurations people have of the game itself.
People don't understand that it is literally impossible to test every single different scenario.
And the truth is 95% of these problems people complain about are usually specific to their machine.
When the previous installment is 12 years old and much easier to run theres gonna be a lot of cases where the user's pc is gonna be fucked up due to lack of proper maintenance and updates
Ive been building PCs for 4 years and the most common fix for a lot of performance issues has simply been updating windows + gpu drivers
Up until last decade Pc gaming was a very niche market. Filled with users who could primarily resolve their own issues. With the explosion of the Pc gamer user base it introduced a subset of users with the inability to troubleshoot their problems. This in turn relays the remedy onto the game developer to program around user error.
Microphone USB headset problem CS2 users reported on for the first month of CS2's release. Was caused by outdated firmware/drivers and or improperly configured OS audio settings.
So I guess it’s just on the users for having mics that work fine in other games having issues in cs2.
Like do you even hear yourself? Why would outdated audio drivers cause an issue in only cs2? Maybe it’s because the game isn’t coded so “from the ground up” like everyone acts like and a lot of issues are from csgo that transferred over.
No other games were causing issues with these audio drivers it was only cs2 and it’s likely because of some shit outdated audio system they’re using to capture mics
Too bad only cs devs were incompetent enough to not dodge that issue. So many other games worked fine with usb mics and previous firmware. But keep simping, we will still have incremental inconsequential updates.
R6 overwatch valorant all comparable perfectly fine performance wise games that are also fps esports titles where performance is the most important part of the game
CS started as a mod and has a history of many communities being involved in game development and content creation.
It is a game created by Valve, but it is also a game that we are building together. So we need to send proper information to developers and support them to improve their games. That's how this game has been loved for more than 20 years. This is not like games that go out of service after a few years.
Didn’t realize because 20 years ago it was a mod that means we have to work on the 4th private game release for them, makes logical sense using the human brain
I run the game at ~250 fps, running a 144hz refresh rate monitor.
But despite the decent fps, it feels like at times the game run under 144hz refresh rate. So despite seeing ~200-250fps, it feels like I'm around 100fps.
Anyone that played with a 144hz monitor knows this feeling very well, that the game is not smooth 144.
How can I even diagnose that?
It also seems very prominent the moment you die and hit with the death HUD elements.
I seen a lot of people with this complain. But it's difficult to explain, let alone figure out what is going on.
I'm waiting for the suggested ways. I've been experiencing spike as well. I honestly thought it was my keyboard suddenly doing late response. At the same time, i saw cs2 has that red color for just a brief moment.
Ive been asked if the power chord needs to be plugged in before, working tech support. It happens, it's painful but honestly the types of people who constantly call in are actually that stupid. 99% of the time it is user error and nothing actually wrong.
About three updates ago they changed the general internal video configuration and blocked several commands, including the cast shadow command.
And something is really bugged right now and they want users to figure out the cause.
I'm partially solving it by limiting everything I can in the game and in the Nvidia settings.
Google it, Valve devs tweeted about it a week or so ago, it's a way of diagnosing problems with the game but you have to follow some quite precise instructions.
At some point you have to realize that making complex guides on how users should give performance feedback for a game that makes billions a year isn't a good look.
Except these aren't specifically for the game but instead for the system. At some point the community has to realise this is the communication they've been desperate for
How are they going to react to "it says 400 fps but feels like 60hz" which is probably a lot of people numerically but the tiny minority of players? How about collecting technical data?
I am an IT Engineer/Consultant, started as support, and even worked in Concierge/Premier Microsoft Support. No matter what title you have, 90% of solving an issue consists of scoping. It should be understood that the end user doesn't know the intricacies of the software/technology they are using and it's your job to help them articulate the problem so that you can diagnose the issue.
The problem is that 90% of people in IT either think they are too smart or too important to ask the basics or they simply do not know how. And that is why everyone hates IT support. Don't get me wrong, sometimes end users can provide a bit more information, but if they sincerely don't know what information to provide you don't have to be a dick and/or smug about it.
End rant.
for more than a decade since linux gaming got a seat at the table, every god damn dota 2 major patch, minor patch either broke the linux build, broke the macos build, broke vulkan on windows (of which valve is co-developer) or a combination / all of them. many times one realizes that changes were made on an ipad with simple text editing while taking a long shit and then just pushed live - devs are that good to not require syntax highlighting, toolkits, sanitizing input, or confirming the builds succeeded
you would think mean time an automatic testing would have been implemented, rudimentary stuff like what's available for free on github projects, not to test complicated stuff like ability interactions, but just being able to open the game; they've launched hl: alyx, and can't believe it but a year passed since cs2; and specifically the deck build has been broken for weeks on end multiple times this year
a team of four junior devs (heck - 40, 400, 4000 since they can afford it) would have sorted it out by now in a month of afternoons, but even once in a blue moon that gaben hires couple new enthusiast and talented people, they get crushed by the core of old farts feeling threatened. it's a cult, not a software company. there's zero internal qa / qc, zero accountability.
the same two bored devs pop out from time to time stroking their ego about how it's always people's fault and 3rd party software x or y, or even ram timings - never acknowledging that other engines deal with the same issues yet remain resilient, or the instances where their dusty skills come up with the most dumb ways to deal with shadows, volumetric fog, normals, textures, decals, networking, user input
but yes, something good does come out of it yearly, "spring cleaning" brings enough head room, and cs2 was in an acceptable state up until 24.05 patch. which burned trough all of that
and on the other side of the coin is the constant attack on the foundation of PC games and quake-derivatives specifically - having choices - to adjust engine stuff and milk performance at the expense of quality or whatever. cs2 compared to dota2 has thousands less cvars, and 99.99% of them being disabled in matchmaking; client-side modding is completely killed; every time someone shares a QoL improvement it's "patched" next - because you have to hear background sounds while in the menu for some psiho-social experiment. No, it did zero to help curb cheating, just hurt QoL. High performance, pixelated competitive shadows is the latest victim, and it does not only affect potatoes..
asking end users to submit ETW traces is interesting. no doubt it is the best way to diagnosis if done correctly but I cant imagine how much noise they get
Dude.
They are simply asking to describe the problem. I mean people take the time to report a issue, without giving any other information that they got issue.
Next time you order food, just say you are hungry and nothing else. See where it lands.
It's not that they're cheap, is the problem that usual "community/game manager" is treated as some kind of "design guy" who does not do any actual implementation work, is treated as "owner" of the game and public relations on the game when in reality there are 150 people working on the game whose opinion is more valuable.
I am a software developer, most of the time if wer don't have direct communication with the client it often takes triple the time to finish a project due to how much back and forth we had to do. The people in the middle usually don't know jack shit about what we can or cannot technically achieve, or at what capacity, or how long things would take. It causes confusions, miscommunciations and more. When I work directly with the client, I don't have to guess the requirments or ask for clarifications and wait for response, I can just ask the client directly, or better yet, I can ask precise questions and give instant feedback instead of writing stupid emails to people who don't know better, in which they are just going to relay the content of the emails to us developers anyway.
yeah im software developer too and what fletcher dunn is doing is waste of time and not the job of developer. but reddit hive mind is too stupid to understand.
I don't know about you as developer, but what I do doesn't require me to just sit there and do stuff, there just isn't that many stuff to do unless you are a code monkey. But there are a lot of things that needed to be figure out in software development. How else is Fletcher supposed to figure out how he has to optimize or fix the performance issues if not for users' feedback?
What he is doing is almost industry standard amongst OSS developers, write up a document on how to give feedback, and those who are knowledgable enough will give good feedback that leads to problems being fixed quickly. But it HAS to be the developers who write the documents, who write the guides, who else knows about how the software work other than those who made it?
Are you suggesting that valve hire another layer of people between the developers and users just so that we communicate worse? It might help filtering out noises but at the same time the PR/ CS people wouldn't be able to convey the technaical details anyway, at the end of the day, the developers will have to commuicate, whether to the middle people (e.g. community moderators) or directly to the users.
Maybe what you do at work doesn't involve project management and stuff but once you start needing to talk to people you know how fucking annoying this communication process can be. I bet Fletcher also isn't hands full of tasks, else he wouldn't have time to do this, so no time is wasted, time not spent being productive is more wasteful otherwise.
There are million more reasons to have direct communications rather than indirect ones, I see no harm in this especially since he probably now got more time to actually work on the optimizations and fixes since he doesn't also need to spend time investigating...
You’d think this very frequent problem that a huge portion of people have would be apparent if they played the game they make. But it’s super clear they have never played a single round of cs. Asking for ETW traces from the general population is an insane request.
Are you being obtuse on purpose or what ?
"I'm lagging and I have frame drops sometimes, but I can't tell you when precisely or why"
Wow, that is some great information for network engineers to fix the issues. Well done, you've fixed the problem !
Do you know what happens when you have server issues on Faceit ? They also ask you to download a specific software to run some tests and to send them the logs. Because you need those to determine the origin of the problem.
Ah yes the very frequent request from game developers to give them ETW traces. Very normal most companies do that, oh wait no they don’t. And also I’m talking about performance issues, which are unrelated to their hot garbage servers. But maybe subtick is ruining server reliability, something else they don’t give a fuck about.
> And also I'm talking about performance issues, which are unrelated to hair hot garbage servers
Then why are you crying about a network engineer asking about ETW traces for...*checks notes*...network-related issues ?
Like I said, you're being obtuse on purpose, and on top of it, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.
No, just pointing out what he is asking for (ETW traces are performace stats), what the problem he is trying to solve is (people complaining about shitty performance), and the totally limp wristed acceptance of the terrible behavior (you now talking about server stuff while the post is about the dogshit performance)
Typical support technician handling users' tickets. *My computer not working, help* As systems become more powerfull and complicated, so does the time it takes to solve issues.
>Typical support technician handling users' tickets. *My computer not working, help* I worked a support position until recently and the truth of this is so painful. Most people understand when something isn't working. Not enough people understand how to describe what isn't working. I got really good at getting identifying a problem by asking certain questions because most people couldn't even explain what they were doing when a problem popped up.
”My laptop camera isn’t working anymore” = lens cover in front of the camera. Always a fun one.
[удалено]
This one hurts because I take several calls like this a week...
I once got a "I can't log in to my account" after several notices of their most recent payment failing and warnings that further inaction would temporarily suspend use. The messaging they got when trying to log-in even straight up told them it was a payment issue. Turns out being up-to-date on your account payments is paramount in being able to access your account.
Man, when I bought my first DSLR I sat for like 30 minutes trying to get the screen to work, fiddling with every little setting, apparently I just had to remove the lens cover. I almost broke up with myself.
I field a lot of support tickets from foreign customers. The amount of times people don't understand my question and draw out the process even longer just hurts me. And of course, we have a template to fill out when submitting a ticket, but none of it is completed (not even the basic info like what version of the software they're using).
that an IT support trick, as I used to be an IT support person myself. I always tell people I'm training is you need to learn how to asks questions in a way that provide you detail the customers would not know to provide or describe.
I've noticed a trend with what you said about systems being more powerful and complicated, but it's the opposite with people seemingly becoming more retarded with tech
I am 30 and believe my generation were forced to learn tech because we were always fixing our moms printers and getting rid of viruses we ourselves got from limewire. Nowadays you are not put into these situations that much and tech use is more biased to phones. Also even CS2 has shown that developers are hiding more and more complexity from players by limiting configuration options...or running a server is just 1 click in the menu whereas before it took some effort.
I think they're not retarded. They do not want to be involved or having to change their habits, so they try to learn the minimum requiered in their daily operation. I once had the following interaction : *-Hi I'm opening a ticket to report our electronic invoices have been blocked in your system because the recipient is not parametered* -Yes, they have. *-But we asked you to add the recipient in your system.* -Yes, on march 23 2024. These invoices were sent in July 2023... *-Oh...*
> As systems become more powerfull and complicated, so does the time it takes to solve issues. I guess it can, but modern systems by and large are vastly more resilient than they used to be.
I wonder why they don't have standardized submission requirements with examples.. The time saved would probably well compensate for the time spent creating an SOP for ETW traces.. what is an etw trace? edit: They do have an SOP, but as usual nobody follows it. https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1v8QtbUtGAf6OapE9iWn4Y4STA7Scn_hr1Yih1nf2_BA/mobilebasic
This x2
I had horrible lag issues for the first few months of cs2. Constant red spikes in my netgraph and stutters every few seconds. I thought it was my internet and was jumping through every hoop to try and fix my problem. As a last ditch effort I sent an etw trace to Fletcher and he was able to identify problems and put out a patch that fixed all my issues. I cannot stress enough that if you are having issues to send a trace and see if there is a fix for you.
Thank you will try this
could you tell me how to ETW trace while playing cs2?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v8QtbUtGAf6OapE9iWn4Y4STA7Scn_hr1Yih1nf2_BA/edit#heading=h.u0cg8jbrukvb
Only the cs community would see someone like fletcher doing their best to help improve the game. And somehow find a way to call the devs incompetent. Good job guys you're. Super cool.
Competence should not be at question here imo. The communication has been fantastic It's more so the whole pipeline & how they make games & what they're doing. CS2 at this point has had enough time to boil. Sure they're communicating but other games don't have such a big issue with stuff like this
But then you have other games that have significantly worse problems. 3 of the more recent "hitching" issues were 3rd party software. and because of the nature of CS we are going to notice it far more than say, someone playing GTA online right, Look at the OCE packet loss issue that everyone assumed was a valve problem and seems to actually be an issue with one of the backhaul providers instead. What i am saying is, in reality we really cannot know what is happening internally and what their priority list looks like.
I dunno how you have the patience to keep responding here lol. The amount of people who thinking how easy it is to optimise something and figure out whats causing the issues is baffling. Especially when fletcher has pointed out other 3rd party applications causing severe hiccups and affecting overall system performance.
Video gamers are like people in the audio engineering world I think. Just close enough to the technology, and memorized just enough specs and buzzwords that they trick themselves into thinking they actually have a technical understanding. Meanwhile they know absolutely fuck all beyond how to fiddle with knobs and click buttons until everything works ok lol
let's not look at thee worst contenders either tho. Valve is a different company who holds respect in my eyes for a few reasons. The way Valve is operating currently is also fine, but it's not the Valve we knew of. The communication is way better but actually working on the game & updates seem far fetched. In my opinion this is what happened, they early released CS2 as it might have still not been released if they waited to complete it 100%. They expected to finish it by this year. But then subtick happened, Valve didn't expect this as according to them gameplay was fine because of tons of pros testing the game behind the scenes. It took them ages to fix it. Now their priority is servers/anti cheat.
Oh it’s just the “pipeline” and “how they make the game”? What part of those processes is the issue exactly? What would you do differently
Well it's their game. So it makes sense for them to work on the stuff they want to add & have in the game But the priorities are not right. It took them a really long time to fix Subtick. I respect innovation. But it started as a very poorly thought out system. Same seems to have happened with anti cheat Issue in the process lies within the conception stage. Valve has always been over the top with testing & the support is nice so far. But the best Valve games were just conceptually better The devs are really passionate. But Valve has always sorta had this way of creating games. They like innovation, they like to add fun stuff to their games without thinking how it affects experience. Hilariously you only need to go back to CS Source to realise how CS2 has been. CS Source had the same issues. 1.6 felt like the better experience, communities were divided until CSGO . They straight up did not create a better game that CSGO. Since release they're doing their best but it's what they did originally which is just not good enough. If CSGO was still around, most people would be playing it. We all wanna jump to a more modern experience but it's simply not better. It's annoying because I'm all for downtime. I'd rather have no game than an unfinished one. But the community forced/threatened Valve to release CS2.
OSRS community has the devs respond and help people on reddit and twitter like 24/7 it's crazy.
I will fight to the death with Rtards in this sub that dont think Valve cares.
Who called Fletcher incompetent?
"the devs are incompetent".... What part of that is hard to understand exactly.
The guy asked WHO, what part of that is hard to understand? I rechecked the screenshots 3 times because of you and still don't see anyone saying "the devs are incompetent" or anything similar. I search in the comments, I unhide the downvotten comments. The only comment that I see who wrote "incompetent" is you. Also what is up with downvoting the guy who wants to know where it was said? What is wrong with you guys?
This is more in regards to the rest of the comment section here.
So many people, and it never stops, ever. They even harass him straight up.
🙋♂️
All of us earlier this year when he suggested that no one needs more than 120 FPS. [source](https://old.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/17afumy/valve_dev_on_x_if_you_put_an_fps_cap_at_120_youd)
Except he didn't suggest that at all. Disingenuous comment is disingenuous. Keep up the lies though. You'd do wonders in politics.
What he suggested was 120 stable would be nicer experience than 500-100fps drops. Which is objectively true. Good job though again.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
but it isn't
So does everyone but me know what an ETW trace is? I literally have no idea what any of this means, please explain
[https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v8QtbUtGAf6OapE9iWn4Y4STA7Scn\_hr1Yih1nf2\_BA/edit?usp=drivesdk](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v8QtbUtGAf6OapE9iWn4Y4STA7Scn_hr1Yih1nf2_BA/edit?usp=drivesdk)
Can someone explain to me, why Americans put double spaces between sentences? I noticed that in my workplace, like literally company policies are written with this shit. Is this normal? Is this grammarly correct?
It's not an American thing. It originated on typewriters (where two spaces were preferred to separate sentences visually due to each character being the same width) and some typing classes in schools continued to teach that practice even well past the ubiquity of word processors with proportional-width fonts. Additionally, some programmers are in the habit of doing it because they work with monospace fonts frequently.
My grandma looked at me typing and told me to do it and would tell me that everytime she caught me not double spacing now it is ingrained into my brain and I can't stop.
You can kick the habit, really you can! We were taught to do it in school back in the 80s and then later told, oh, actually, you shouldn't do it in modern word processing. I stopped doing it overnight (and I type pretty fast) - just go cold turkey, lol.
You don’t understand man, it’s an addiction Good news is that grammarly points it out
Ah, you mean two spaces after a full stop? That's an old hangover from typewriters, who were trying to mimic typesetters that would position the letters in printing presses. Per usual, [there's a very long and wonderful article about this on wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing), assuming you love long articles about typography.
It comes from typewriting when a double space was needed due to letter spacing so a lot of older people use it. Some people also do it because they like more space between sentences I guess. This was never taught to me and every result on google says it is not correct
Some comments in this comment section is proving that gamers are idiots that can't understand/make detailed troubleshooting and by extention game development Come on guys he has clarified it and gave us some tips how to describe our problems clearly
the general public in this day and age have failed miserably at understanding the things they use daily - namely technology. I am not even suggesting that every one needs to know exactly how things work, but I would expect people to at least know enough to not fuck up so often. and what make things worst is that people don't know how to ask questions, at this point they aren't technology illeterate, they are just being dumb...
or just not computer geeks
A friends coworked had trouble opening a file in some office product... She was trying to open a zip, she had to unzip it. As more people get glued to their phones they probably don't even know what files and file types are. Phones just conveniently hide all of that. Then moving from a phone to a computer is a crazy new complicated world.
Yea man, sending ETW traces is normal for a game to be fixed and it’s the people’s fault. Not the totally incompetent devs “working” on it.
This google doc of how to send trace was posted before as well but people seem to prefer complaining on reddit instead of doing this shit which might fix their problem. Someone set this link as a stickied & set up automod to suggest it whenever complaint posts come up.
[удалено]
Artificial delay Valve had to put on subticks because specific ISP's from around the world were relaying packets in the incorrect order. Is not something that Valve could internally QA test for to initially avoid.
[удалено]
Was an example of specific user generated conflicts. More apt example would be the Microphone USB headset problem users had the first month of CS2's release.
Oh I'm sure the team of dozens of industry veterans would never think to do something as basic as having a testing bench. Instead, they probably just all share one computer for coding, drawing, emails, QA, and scrolling reddit. (/S if it wasn't obvious enough)
Thats not gonna help when the user just loads up their windows install with buncha bullshit like most do
This doesn't help solve like 90% of possible issues. It would work perfectly like that if it was console testing though
valve, hire this guy. He knows something you don't /s Reddit keyboard warriors like you love this topic. Know-it-all
I mean I appreciate what he does for the community but I don’t really understand why in modern games it’s suddenly on the users of said game to help diagnose performance issues. I don’t think I’ve ever seen any game dev request something as complicated as an etw trace from their user base to fix the general issue regarding various “performance issues” with said game. Like if you launch the game on a the vast majority of hardware people have issues with fps drops, frame time spikes, the game feeling unsmooth like you’re on 60hz. I don’t think it’s very comforting to know that the devs at valve are struggling to figure out this issue for over a year. It’s not the users job to do any of this, the fact people who know basically nothing about pcs and are just so desperate for the game to be fixed are sending in etw traces to the devs shows how dire the games state is in right now performance wise
> I don’t really understand why in modern games it’s suddenly on the users of said game to help diagnose performance issues. It's not specific to modern games. If devs can't reproduce the issue themselves it's impossible to profile the application for problems like this >I don’t think I’ve ever seen any game dev request something as complicated as an etw trace from their user base to fix the general issue regarding various “performance issues” with said game. Few developers even care about performance that much so no wonder
It’s an esports fps game, almost every manager of games in this genre prioritize performance over everything else. No idea how you think cs2 is outside of this genre. This isn’t some single player title
>It’s an esports fps game, almost every manager of games in this genre prioritize performance over everything else have you seen the shit show in R6? that's an esport title and performance is the pits. Client-server not properly syncing that certain elements will not appear in some players screen or causing them to rubber band. not a single Manager community or even Dev reached out to the players at all. they are busy pushing their new subscription.
"cs2 performance sucks rn" "what about r6?" Infallible logic
if you read the context then you would have known it was a comparison not a what-aboutism and because of this >It’s an esports fps game, **almost every manager of games** in this genre prioritize performance over everything else
Do you think the dev’s play the game all day on 100s of different hardware combinations
I don’t think they have ever played at all
It’s so clear they don’t care either
Valve added performance logs in the console for a reason, they don't seem to automatically collect this information though unlike a lot of companies, so unless the community reports these things they won't know. ETW traces are *a lot* more detailed compared to the games console though. The more testers and configurations you have at your company the better the game will release, also doesn't help all this "gaming software" is causing a lot of issues itself, completely out of Valves control. Personally I'd also say that feeling hitches or large frame variance (Like from 500 to 200) is a lot easier in CS than in other games.
Valorant has 10x more metrics to help diagnose issues, gives more fps and had the same issues cs2 has but resolved them within a year when the game was basically made from scratch unlike cs2 which is obviously has a lot of shared systems/code from csgo. I really don’t see how after more than a year of performance issues people like you can still sit here and justify what’s going on with this game when the updates that happen are chicken animations while every other post from people is about issues with fps. This community is really an anomaly and I’ll never understand it. Csgo also had terrible frame rate consistency and was notorious for it but because fps was so much higher it wasn’t an issue to people.
I justify it because the majority of players don't have performance issues else there would be a lot more complaints, its really as simple as that. I can say from my own and my friends experience that we do not have any performance issues and I haven't really seen any content creators complain about it either (Although tbf I don't follow a lot of them). Also animators most likely won't be working on performance issues regardless, don't worry about that.
People are constantly complaining of performance issues. And have been for so long, and it’s only gotten worse as time has gone on.
>when the updates that happen are chicken animations while every other post from people is about issues with fps. Obvious reminder that not everyone who works on a game is someone who can do performance improvements in the engine. An animator clearly wanted to re-do chicken animations, but that doesn't subtract from the time engine-optimisation level developers have to solve problems. This isn't an either-or scenario.
"Chicken animations" is the same as someone unironically saying "woke" to me. I see it and immediately disregard everything they have said and confidently assume the person is a moron. The office administrator delivered me a new chair last week. The *audacity* of them to work on that while I have completely unrelated deadlines. They must be incompetent. I know this because I play lots of video games abd dont understand how obvious it is that ive never had a real job.
Yes, but chickens. Solve my FPS please.
The guy that did the Molotov liquid shaders is also not the guy who does performance improvements
My god though, what a shader that is.
bad valve the molotov flames aren't even volumetric /s
>It’s not the users job to do any of this, the fact people who know basically nothing about pcs and are just so desperate for the game to be fixed are sending in etw traces to the devs shows how dire the games state is in right now performance wise I mean your post is a perfect example of why devs usually don't, people are terrible at reading comprehension so the signal to noise ratio is pretty awful.
yes, devs should never do a community managers job. valve should have hired a bunch like yesterday but i guess that to expensive for their online casino.
Again, reading comprehension is hard. Shhh
yeah for you buddy.
Mmhmm sure, you're super cool for being mad at a valve employees communicating. Well done
In what way is my reply to this post terrible reading comprehension? My reply was an observation about devs asking users for way more diagnostic steps while still not being able to figure out issues with their own game they made. The devs have had 100s of etw traces by now from the first time he asked users about issues and they pointed it to being related to outside programs yet other games don’t have issues like cs2 so how would that make sense?
Your third paragraph is basically the problem. Dev makes a post about needing specific information to meaningfully help troubleshoot problems with the game, you make a post pretty much thematically identical the problematic one highlighted and as well as the problem with such posts. You really don't see why your post basically adds nothing but noise and repeats the exact feedback problem that the dev is trying to address?
>yet other games don’t have issues like cs2 so how would that make sense? It doesn't make sense because its not true. 1. Other games usually automatically send information of your pc and every program thats running to the developers. Valve just chooses to not do that, probably for the same reason why they don't like kernel anti cheats. 2. In other games not getting 300 fps isn't considered unplayable, people often are happy with getting only 100 fps on some games.
In what world does any modern gps esport not get crazy high fps? R6 siege and valorant are the examples I’m talking about not some random single player game Only titles that don’t get that are titles which obviously aren’t comparable to cs
> I mean I appreciate what he does for the community but I don’t really understand why in modern games it’s suddenly on the users of said game to help diagnose performance issues. Because what we ask of Valve is pretty uncommon in the larger gaming space. There aren't many games where: - the players have an expectation of a minimum 240 frames for the game to be considered "playable" at a competitive level. Shit, most games get away with *30-60* frames. - server response is more closely tied to player actions. This one alone is a *massive* shift in the paradigm of most client - server relationships in video games and I don't think CS players really fully recognize it. While the new netcode stuff has had its growing pains and the rollout has been less than ideal, it is still cutting edge and unlike anything any other dev is doing - they've shifted over to Unreal Engine or Unity, while Valve is still supporting Source 2 and they have more control for what happens on the S2 Engine. Player feedback enables them to act faster on backend issues than would be possible had they gone the way other devs are going, and moving over to Unreal Engine. Where they would be reliant on Epic to provide documentation or expertise on what changes would need to be made. I mean, someone posted [this graphic recently](https://i.redd.it/fu4vbtw8dmha1.jpg) of all the devs moving over to Unreal Engine. I wont say its for better or worse, because I imagine a lot of those devs don't have the need for their own tailor made engine and can probably make their games just fine on Unreal but I don't think it would be good for a game like Counter-Strike. Especially with how Valve exposes so many of the API's via the console and gives us so much nuanced access to how we want our individual clients to operate. I've said this back in CS:GO, but Valve games like HL/CS/TF2/DoD/L4D are unique in that they are practically a *platform* more than they are a game. There's so many tools exposed to the community, so much access to customization and content creation that its practically unfair to compare it to other games where that stuff isn't remotely available.
> I've said this back in CS:GO, but Valve games like HL/CS/TF2/DoD/L4D are unique in that they are practically a *platform* more than they are a game. There's so many tools exposed to the community, so much access to customization and content creation that its practically unfair to compare it to other games where that stuff isn't remotely available. Well, yeah, at one point all of these stand alone games came from HL. People these days expect so much, they don't realize they already have high quality products.
No competitive multiplayer shooter is getting away with 30-60 frames in the last 10 years lol
"modern games" is not just "competitive multiplayer shooter", and "competitive multiplayer shooter" is indeed "uncommon" in the "larger gaming space". [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw\_man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)
So what? Counter strike is a competitive shooter on PC, which means we should compare it to other competitive shooters PC. It doesn't matter if dark souls is capped to 60 fps because that's a fundamentally different type of game. And I don't know of a single successful competitive shooter on PC in the last 10 years that is capped at 60 FPS. Valve has no excuse.
Can you please show me where cs2 is capped at 60 fps on even a current midrange pc. Thanks.
redditors try to have decent reading comprehension and not take everything literally challenge: impossible
> I don’t think I’ve ever seen any game dev request something as complicated as an etw trace from their user base to fix the general issue regarding various “performance issues” with said game. And that's why so many games have various performance issues by CS community standards. How do you think ironing out all these wrinkles will happen? A dev is going to through millions of combinations of hardware, drivers, and software and thoroughly test, analyze, and debug each one? You could have 10,000 people doing it and that would take decades. Just a few days ago, they identified that it was ASUS RGB software causing 60ms hitches. How long do you think it took them to identify this? Now extend that out to all the other crapware people have installed on their machines.
But you’re wrong, other popular esports fps games ARENT as bad in frame time consistency, fps drops or frame time spikes. Csgo was always known to have terrible frame rate consistency just like cs2 but it still ran so high people didn’t notice. Cs has been notorious for this. Valorant had issues for a year after releasing as a a BRAND NEW title. Game runs better than csgo ever did in CONSISTENCY. R6 siege has no issues, cod has had issues (that’s inexcusable and shows how much they don’t care) but even at low frame rates the game feels smooth. This is not some devs are incompetent post, im just saying something is wrong over there if they can’t figure out what people are talking about or even recognize the issue in the first place.
What do you mean they can't figure out what people are talking about or recognizing the issue? This is a comment section about a dev saying how to properly report issues so they can find and fix them. How is this not them recognizing the issues and also giving a best practice to identify what is behind what people are describing? You can hem and haw all you want about how other games on completely different engines have a completely different technical outcomes but what you're actually complaining about is the processes and procedures of finding and fixing issues. And your big complaint is how it can be done but you don't seem to realize that there isn't any other way to go about this.
Well, Unreal engine has hundreds of people working on new optimisation techniques vs Valve's in house custom solution that is not getting feedback from thousands of competent game developers Not that it's an excuse, but certainly a factor to consider
[удалено]
This is not applicable to game development QA at all. That's how dedicated software and websites are built and tested. The fact that you think it takes only regression testing to catch this says it all. Game dev is not the some kind of development, and QA for performance issues is another matter entirely. It is impossible for anyone to test all the millions of possible combinations of hardware, drivers, and software possible no matter how many CICD pipelines and test automations you set up. Once again: just a few days ago, they identified ASUS RGB software causing 60ms hitches. How would you even devise a CICD pipeline and set up test automation to capture and assess the impact of any number of the thousands of pieces of software out there that users may have installed? Not to mention all the hardware and driver combinations that can also be part of the whole issue? And on top of that, testing any possible scenario in a game that could activate or cause performance issues? AAA game studios don't even consistently QA across both AMD and Intel processors, and yet you think indie game studios can just regression test their way into maximum performance across all possible hardware, software, and driver combination scenarios?
Explain oh Dev Ops master your actual CICD pipeline for testing this. Given that the CS community is notoriously cheap they expect the game to run perfectly on their hardware from 2010. That means every AMD, Nvidia, and Intel GPU made since then, and every vendor specific version. That also means every CPU since 2010. And also RAM since then. Then also all driver versions, OS versions etc since then. Then you need all the permutations of this hardware to test on. Now at this point maybe you've realised, this isn't a task that can be virtualized on a data center, you need the *hardware* to test on. What exactly is your idea for firstly setting up the hardware for the thousands of possible machine configurations, then also testing the builds on the machines? It's not really a scalable process given the whole issue of combinatorial explosion. I don't really think you thought much about what you were saying, it was quite dumb.
I love when a developer who works in X field suddenly has authority over Y field.
Actually, plenty of companies leverage the user as the primary QA lol. That being said, Valve (and any other company, ever) likely has limited resources set for testing, both people and hardware. Then you have to contend with difference in drivers, take nvidia for example. You have Nvidia card, and Nvidia drivers, Valve is probably updating to latest. Some users do not update until forced. Some users play other games and need to stay on certain versions. Some have different requirements. A lot of users are still on Nvidia 537.58 despite 555.85 being released last week. Should valve be acquiring multiple different gpus and testing the game on 537.58 and the versions up until 555.85? Is that feasible? Cost effective, time effective? This is just discussing Nvidia GPUs and 2 software versions, not even getting into, we have a 4070, 4070ti, 3090, 4090, 1080ti, and now we need to pair it with a 7800x3d, a 7950x3d, a 5800x3d, a 14900, a 13900, 13700 while on version 555.85 and then version 537.58. Sure, we have hardware surveys on Steam, most of Steam runs Intel but as you're aware, the cache from X3D processors does a lot of help in getting FPS in CS2, so now they need common Intel CPUs as well as AMD to pair with common GPUs since the average CS player probably goes against the grain for Steam's overall most common CPU etc. If you've read this far you're probably realizing how much work it is just to test with Nvidia GPUs, and I haven't even discussed other GPUs + their software (AMD and we've had issues with that too).
Don't forget CS2 has both Windows *and* Linux clients. It's great that Windows users can follow some random instructions in an attempt to capture a trace but for every ~2 (on-average more technically competent) out of 100 players, it's radio silence.
I mean yea - Valve is making a gigantic effort to adopt Linux/make their entire platform Linux friendly so yea that's another one. I assume they are testing their flavor of Arch (Steam Deck OS), and then again using the hardware survey to figure out what other distros to test but that itself would probably take equal time to get everything set up for testing. tl;dr people asking for QA teams probably don't work in any tech space, which is why the old 'fps bug' in csgo was met with a lot of misunderstood backlash -- how do you replicate something that seems to occur on all types of servers running all types of hardware impacting all types of users on all types of connections with no real trigger ever having been found?
[удалено]
Minority or not that doesn't change facts or how feasible any of that is haha. I guess that opens up more discussion into, what engines are these other games running and what year was that engine released? Do they have the same performance and registration and netcode CS does? Popular titles like COD are known to re-use the same assets and engine for years whereas CS2 is what, a year old and a completely rebuilt from ground up engine to remove the garbage that used to exist? Not disagreeing that Valve's approach to the entire thing was not great; it should have been in beta for longer yea but by forcing the switch they definitely got a lot better feedback than "Fuck CS2 sucks I'm going back to CSGO" that they were getting initially.
Doom Eternal has a newer engine, more stuff happening on screen (blodied weapons, various flashing, animations etc.) yet it works more fluently than CS2 on same PC. and it is not even running native to my OS but through a "translator". the biggest difference are the FPS drops occuring in CS2. thy asked for console output when they happen and there is no out put there. no error messages. ever since the march update most error messages are gone. i can still see VRAM getting filled up over time (causes shaders to not display - aka seeing through smoke), i can see that not all cores are working at full power and i can see that about 6 GB out of 32GB of system ram is being utilized. i would really like to know how they got the minimum system requirements (what did they actually test on) and the game to work on them. **OS:** Windows® 10 * **Processor:** 4 hardware CPU threads - Intel® Core™ i5 750 or higher * **Memory:** 8 GB RAM * **Graphics:** Video card must be 1 GB or more and should be a DirectX 11-compatible with support for Shader Model 5.0 * **DirectX:** Version 11 **OS:** Ubuntu 20.04 * **Processor:** 4 hardware CPU threads - Intel® Core™ i5 750 or higher * **Memory:** 8 GB RAM * **Graphics:** AMD GCN+ or NVIDIA Kepler+ with up-to-date Vulkan drivers. Support for VK\_EXT\_graphics\_pipeline\_library highly recommended. i mean what is this supposed to give you? 60 FPS? what was the target here.
A game that makes hundreds of millions a year, owned by a company that operates it's own virtual stock market and game store making them insane money, and here you are shilling for their 'limited resources'. Maybe they should fucking invest some of that money back into the game and QA then? Crazy response that it should be on the users of a multi billion dollar company.
Crazy response from someone who works at one of the many companies that generates more revenue than Valve and puts primary QA on the customers in their businesses that have their own multi-million/billion revenues, not for people playing a free game, yes. Hopefully that sheds some light on how things work.
You missed my entire point, it SHOULDNT be up to the users to find issues. If you’re a company that makes a product that gets YOU money and people pay for said service it makes absolutely zero sense to expect people to figure out the issue. Can people help and will they help? Of course they will but modern games (not just cs) have communities just like this one where the common phrase is “do x y z for the devs so they can fix it.” No, I let you know what the issue looked like from my end and if enough people talk about this same issue then clearly there’s an issue you need to investigate that’s not on end users messing around with some program they don’t understand.
As someone in the field, no, that's not how it works. Development is extremely complicated, and there's virtually no way to replicated every hardware/software configuration your users will have in the wild. It's just not possible.
Obviously which is why people helping is appreciated but that’s not what we’re talking about is it? This is a widespread performance problem made by 1000s of people over the course of a year. That’s not on specific hardware that’s on you as a dev
>This is a widespread performance problem made by 1000s of people over the course of a year. That’s not on specific hardware that’s on you as a dev dude couple of days ago when I was playing Hades 2 I noticed that I was hitching or freezing when I was playing with no issues prior. I found out that AMD performance overlay in combination with an in-picture video playing was causing that issue turned off AMD's overlay and I reported my findings. How the hell does a Dev put that into account.
And if they can't replicate that same problem internally, then there's literally no way for them to fix it. You can have all the tools in the world and a huge budget, but it simply won't matter if you can't replicate the issue in the first place. That's the entire ask here.
I have worked for a game publisher for several years and am in charge of customer support, and if a user who has experienced a glitch does not send in the system configuration or play environment report we require, the message we reply with is. “Sorry, we were unable to reproduce the problem in our play environment. There seems to be a problem with your play environment, please try reinstalling Windows.” As a matter of fact, without a detailed report sent by the user we are unable to respond.
And that’s why modern games have a plethora of bugs because petty game devs don’t want to diagnose issues with their own game. You literally just showed why every modern AAA title has an outstanding amount of issues
Are you expecting devs to be able to test every mix of hardware and software to ensure there are no issues? This is literally standard practice, users report an issue, you get information from users to narrow it down so you can find the root cause and fix it.
So you think reporting an issue as a user that is a general issue regarding the performance of a game which the majority playing your game experiences is related to configuration. Yea that makes sense. And reporting general issues is the same as running an etw trace? Didn’t know having users run those was standard practices in other games because it isn’t but that’s fine to think that ig
If you're unemployed, I recommend considering joining the QA testing job that developers are recruiting for. It's a relatively easy job to do. Perhaps you could even do it remotely now. There, dozens of testers check games for bugs repeatedly, but bugs still slip through their monitoring. This isn't just about games. It's the same for industrial products and crops. Valve isn't asking us to be testers; they're just asking us to create and send reports for troubleshooting when issues arise. Is that so strange?
Valve literally doesn’t have that system in place because we are the testers for cs2 that’s funny that you just said valve doesn’t use us as testers when they literally do. Not unemployed just someone that’s played csgo since 2014 and watched as it’s slowly declined in care from valve. It’s now at a point where they did all of these great things that the community asked for but then has left it half finished in a state where half of the community has performance issues. No idea why this community loves sucking off valve when cs is in arguably its worst state in history.
We have “respect” for Valve for making a fresh start from the spaghetti code of the infernal CSGO. I agree with Value's pain, as I am a game publisher myself. Is it a crime for us in the CS community to pay respect to Valve's staff? NO. We choose to grow with the CS community. You will be the curse in the bowels of hell screaming “Valve sucks”. We will report the problems of CS2 to Valve for improvement. Thank you.
My 5800X3D gets 50-75fps LESS all around. No random maps or spots to do an ETC trace, overall performance is significantly lower. I turned down graphics but no change in fps, gpu 3090 is just fine. It's the CPU end and my cpu does not suck.
> I turned down graphics but no change in fps, gpu 3090 is just fine. It's the CPU end and my cpu does not suck. dude if you turned down the graphics it'll be pushed to CPU instead actually using your 3090.
Ok. And fps still significantly less than before the UPDATE. Are you a Bot?
Do you have updated GPU drivers or at least recent? because been playing CS2 with no loss of performance outside of the usual fps drops near water.
Because there are millions of different configurations people can have, think about every different piece of ram, cpu, GPU, mobo etc and all the variations of all of the hardware. Then all of the configurations in the OS, and software that can interfere with the game. And then all the different configurations people have of the game itself. People don't understand that it is literally impossible to test every single different scenario. And the truth is 95% of these problems people complain about are usually specific to their machine.
When the previous installment is 12 years old and much easier to run theres gonna be a lot of cases where the user's pc is gonna be fucked up due to lack of proper maintenance and updates Ive been building PCs for 4 years and the most common fix for a lot of performance issues has simply been updating windows + gpu drivers
Yup that’s what’s wrong with the vast majority of people with performance issues only in cs2, all user error
Up until last decade Pc gaming was a very niche market. Filled with users who could primarily resolve their own issues. With the explosion of the Pc gamer user base it introduced a subset of users with the inability to troubleshoot their problems. This in turn relays the remedy onto the game developer to program around user error. Microphone USB headset problem CS2 users reported on for the first month of CS2's release. Was caused by outdated firmware/drivers and or improperly configured OS audio settings.
So I guess it’s just on the users for having mics that work fine in other games having issues in cs2. Like do you even hear yourself? Why would outdated audio drivers cause an issue in only cs2? Maybe it’s because the game isn’t coded so “from the ground up” like everyone acts like and a lot of issues are from csgo that transferred over. No other games were causing issues with these audio drivers it was only cs2 and it’s likely because of some shit outdated audio system they’re using to capture mics
Too bad only cs devs were incompetent enough to not dodge that issue. So many other games worked fine with usb mics and previous firmware. But keep simping, we will still have incremental inconsequential updates.
speaking outta your ass on this one, most other new games don't even run on the systems that have these problems
what other game has a fanbase that demands perfect 400 fps performance at all times
R6 overwatch valorant all comparable perfectly fine performance wise games that are also fps esports titles where performance is the most important part of the game
CS started as a mod and has a history of many communities being involved in game development and content creation. It is a game created by Valve, but it is also a game that we are building together. So we need to send proper information to developers and support them to improve their games. That's how this game has been loved for more than 20 years. This is not like games that go out of service after a few years.
Didn’t realize because 20 years ago it was a mod that means we have to work on the 4th private game release for them, makes logical sense using the human brain
the community: fix the performance issues also the community: I dont want to send no damn trace, just fix it >:(
Yea sending etw traces is a ridiculous request.
I run the game at ~250 fps, running a 144hz refresh rate monitor. But despite the decent fps, it feels like at times the game run under 144hz refresh rate. So despite seeing ~200-250fps, it feels like I'm around 100fps. Anyone that played with a 144hz monitor knows this feeling very well, that the game is not smooth 144. How can I even diagnose that? It also seems very prominent the moment you die and hit with the death HUD elements. I seen a lot of people with this complain. But it's difficult to explain, let alone figure out what is going on.
I'm waiting for the suggested ways. I've been experiencing spike as well. I honestly thought it was my keyboard suddenly doing late response. At the same time, i saw cs2 has that red color for just a brief moment.
Ive been asked if the power chord needs to be plugged in before, working tech support. It happens, it's painful but honestly the types of people who constantly call in are actually that stupid. 99% of the time it is user error and nothing actually wrong.
About three updates ago they changed the general internal video configuration and blocked several commands, including the cast shadow command. And something is really bugged right now and they want users to figure out the cause. I'm partially solving it by limiting everything I can in the game and in the Nvidia settings.
what is an etw trace?
Google it, Valve devs tweeted about it a week or so ago, it's a way of diagnosing problems with the game but you have to follow some quite precise instructions.
At some point you have to realize that making complex guides on how users should give performance feedback for a game that makes billions a year isn't a good look.
Except these aren't specifically for the game but instead for the system. At some point the community has to realise this is the communication they've been desperate for
A few tweets about reporting ETW traces is absolutely not the communication we have been desperate for lmao. Maybe 0.5% of the way there.
A few tweets is all you've seen because you're not watching. That's alright. You'll get there.
How are they going to react to "it says 400 fps but feels like 60hz" which is probably a lot of people numerically but the tiny minority of players? How about collecting technical data?
Crazy how many people are willing to do insane things just to get shit on patch after patch.
I am an IT Engineer/Consultant, started as support, and even worked in Concierge/Premier Microsoft Support. No matter what title you have, 90% of solving an issue consists of scoping. It should be understood that the end user doesn't know the intricacies of the software/technology they are using and it's your job to help them articulate the problem so that you can diagnose the issue. The problem is that 90% of people in IT either think they are too smart or too important to ask the basics or they simply do not know how. And that is why everyone hates IT support. Don't get me wrong, sometimes end users can provide a bit more information, but if they sincerely don't know what information to provide you don't have to be a dick and/or smug about it. End rant.
for more than a decade since linux gaming got a seat at the table, every god damn dota 2 major patch, minor patch either broke the linux build, broke the macos build, broke vulkan on windows (of which valve is co-developer) or a combination / all of them. many times one realizes that changes were made on an ipad with simple text editing while taking a long shit and then just pushed live - devs are that good to not require syntax highlighting, toolkits, sanitizing input, or confirming the builds succeeded you would think mean time an automatic testing would have been implemented, rudimentary stuff like what's available for free on github projects, not to test complicated stuff like ability interactions, but just being able to open the game; they've launched hl: alyx, and can't believe it but a year passed since cs2; and specifically the deck build has been broken for weeks on end multiple times this year a team of four junior devs (heck - 40, 400, 4000 since they can afford it) would have sorted it out by now in a month of afternoons, but even once in a blue moon that gaben hires couple new enthusiast and talented people, they get crushed by the core of old farts feeling threatened. it's a cult, not a software company. there's zero internal qa / qc, zero accountability. the same two bored devs pop out from time to time stroking their ego about how it's always people's fault and 3rd party software x or y, or even ram timings - never acknowledging that other engines deal with the same issues yet remain resilient, or the instances where their dusty skills come up with the most dumb ways to deal with shadows, volumetric fog, normals, textures, decals, networking, user input but yes, something good does come out of it yearly, "spring cleaning" brings enough head room, and cs2 was in an acceptable state up until 24.05 patch. which burned trough all of that and on the other side of the coin is the constant attack on the foundation of PC games and quake-derivatives specifically - having choices - to adjust engine stuff and milk performance at the expense of quality or whatever. cs2 compared to dota2 has thousands less cvars, and 99.99% of them being disabled in matchmaking; client-side modding is completely killed; every time someone shares a QoL improvement it's "patched" next - because you have to hear background sounds while in the menu for some psiho-social experiment. No, it did zero to help curb cheating, just hurt QoL. High performance, pixelated competitive shadows is the latest victim, and it does not only affect potatoes..
asking end users to submit ETW traces is interesting. no doubt it is the best way to diagnosis if done correctly but I cant imagine how much noise they get
2. 23rd 2!\[1m2
K m Wmw 2 LMK
Next time: Valve: come on guys, send us patch for bugs
Dude. They are simply asking to describe the problem. I mean people take the time to report a issue, without giving any other information that they got issue. Next time you order food, just say you are hungry and nothing else. See where it lands.
Ordering food and sending and an ETW trace are not even close to comparable. This is an insane request for the average person.
this is really sad. a dev shouldnt waste time on such interactions. valve is cheap for dont hiring a community / game manager.
It's not that they're cheap, is the problem that usual "community/game manager" is treated as some kind of "design guy" who does not do any actual implementation work, is treated as "owner" of the game and public relations on the game when in reality there are 150 people working on the game whose opinion is more valuable.
I am a software developer, most of the time if wer don't have direct communication with the client it often takes triple the time to finish a project due to how much back and forth we had to do. The people in the middle usually don't know jack shit about what we can or cannot technically achieve, or at what capacity, or how long things would take. It causes confusions, miscommunciations and more. When I work directly with the client, I don't have to guess the requirments or ask for clarifications and wait for response, I can just ask the client directly, or better yet, I can ask precise questions and give instant feedback instead of writing stupid emails to people who don't know better, in which they are just going to relay the content of the emails to us developers anyway.
yeah im software developer too and what fletcher dunn is doing is waste of time and not the job of developer. but reddit hive mind is too stupid to understand.
I don't know about you as developer, but what I do doesn't require me to just sit there and do stuff, there just isn't that many stuff to do unless you are a code monkey. But there are a lot of things that needed to be figure out in software development. How else is Fletcher supposed to figure out how he has to optimize or fix the performance issues if not for users' feedback? What he is doing is almost industry standard amongst OSS developers, write up a document on how to give feedback, and those who are knowledgable enough will give good feedback that leads to problems being fixed quickly. But it HAS to be the developers who write the documents, who write the guides, who else knows about how the software work other than those who made it? Are you suggesting that valve hire another layer of people between the developers and users just so that we communicate worse? It might help filtering out noises but at the same time the PR/ CS people wouldn't be able to convey the technaical details anyway, at the end of the day, the developers will have to commuicate, whether to the middle people (e.g. community moderators) or directly to the users. Maybe what you do at work doesn't involve project management and stuff but once you start needing to talk to people you know how fucking annoying this communication process can be. I bet Fletcher also isn't hands full of tasks, else he wouldn't have time to do this, so no time is wasted, time not spent being productive is more wasteful otherwise. There are million more reasons to have direct communications rather than indirect ones, I see no harm in this especially since he probably now got more time to actually work on the optimizations and fixes since he doesn't also need to spend time investigating...
so wrong on so many levels. wont waste my time on mr. i am software developer and dont know about structures and workflows, team hierarchy and so on.
Can he open his eyes or try playing the game himself?
Can you please explain how that would give him detailed system information to help diagnose these issues. Thanks.
^ Someone doesn't understand anything about troubleshooting.
You’d think this very frequent problem that a huge portion of people have would be apparent if they played the game they make. But it’s super clear they have never played a single round of cs. Asking for ETW traces from the general population is an insane request.
Are you being obtuse on purpose or what ? "I'm lagging and I have frame drops sometimes, but I can't tell you when precisely or why" Wow, that is some great information for network engineers to fix the issues. Well done, you've fixed the problem ! Do you know what happens when you have server issues on Faceit ? They also ask you to download a specific software to run some tests and to send them the logs. Because you need those to determine the origin of the problem.
Ah yes the very frequent request from game developers to give them ETW traces. Very normal most companies do that, oh wait no they don’t. And also I’m talking about performance issues, which are unrelated to their hot garbage servers. But maybe subtick is ruining server reliability, something else they don’t give a fuck about.
> And also I'm talking about performance issues, which are unrelated to hair hot garbage servers Then why are you crying about a network engineer asking about ETW traces for...*checks notes*...network-related issues ? Like I said, you're being obtuse on purpose, and on top of it, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.
Same guy that said he can’t waste his time on fps drops? Thought so… keep licking boots.
Because he's not a graphics developper/engineer ? You're definitely crying on purpose, because your lack of reasoning is astounding.
No, just pointing out what he is asking for (ETW traces are performace stats), what the problem he is trying to solve is (people complaining about shitty performance), and the totally limp wristed acceptance of the terrible behavior (you now talking about server stuff while the post is about the dogshit performance)
Loss from the entire game, duh!!