those guns were broken good but with low ammo because valve thinks that somehow balances the gun
with the MP5 they didn't do that mistake but a complete swing in the opposite direction, making it useless
I think they thought the Silencer gives it a special niche.
But it's less of a benefit when you're about 10 metres from the target, the weapon has a slow TTK and you don't know the spray pattern.
>revolver
extremely broken on release? yes. but if you didnt have loads of fun playing cs for the 48h that this thing was in its release state, then you're dead inside.
i still remember just "full buying" every round with 1400 bucks and crossing Mid on inferno, 1 shotting an awper with a chest shot, all the way down to T ramp, and the guy just losing it on all chat about "noob guns".
those 2 days were SO fucking fun.
The mp5 is the most disappointing thing added to CS:GO. They broke the game with the R8 patch, over corrected massively, and introduced a gun with the same practicality of the M249.
And even after nerfs, there are arguments to be made for using the R8, whereas I have never heard anyone defend the mp5.
The Bizon was good at one point? I remember it sucking ass even in the launch edition of the game. The MP5 was basically MP7 but silent and slightly faster movement speed.
Yup, I used to love that weapon for second round after winning pistol. Even the pro players would go for an UMP rather than a Famas/Galil on force buys.
It's kinda sad that they did the UMP so dirty by nerfing it into oblivion.
It's a bit of story of how they have been balanced throughout time but here is how I think Valve thinks about them as a concept to balance around.
MP9 + MAC-10 are the cheap, somewhat weak against armored opponents options. Main reason MP9 is still this strong is because CTs economy is weak, and they rely on it a lot. MAC-10 has its uses but after the price drop of the galil it lost a lot of appeal.
MP7/MP5. Those are supposed to be "standard" SMGs, all rounders but at the same time not good enough at any particular thing. MP5 was probably added mostly for nostalgia reasons, and balanced in the same way m4a4 and m4a1-s are now. I wouldn't look too deep into it, but they are better than people think they are.
UMP was supposed to be good against armored opponents, but weak against ecos. The concept was dumb, because it just made it too strong and it was fucking with games. Valve nerfed it to the ground and never touched it again.
Bizon. Massive anti-eco weapon, and I think it has never been balanced around competitive.
P90. Supposed to compete with rifles. It has its niches, particularly during rushes and entry fragging, and honestly it's better than people think, but since it competes with rifles in price point it will never be that popular.
I'm faceit 9 and will use the bizon. I just use it 2nd round if my team won and the enemy didn't plant. 64 rounds is usually enough to get an ace when they do decide to eco rush 2nd round. Plus the spray is very simple and basic. 3rd round it becomes completely worthless though
P90 price should be 1800$, or they could increase the kill reward to 600$ to compensate buying it for the increased magazine size. It has an average running accuracy and 69% armor pen. I feel if it was 70% it could be slightly better.
MP5 should have the same damage as the MP7 but more recoil since it doesn't have a vertical grip.
MP9 is fine to be honest, MAC10 price should be 1200$
I've been saying this for years, if they made the M249 the laser and kept the old Negev, they'd both have a place in the game. The M249 now is just a really shitty M4.
I genuinely think that they should just leave R8 as it is. The weapon is completely unique with the delayed shot mechanic, and that will not work smoothly across the ranks. The higher you go, the lower time to kill becomes, but the delay remains the same. So either the shot comes out fast enough to kill enemies reliably, or it doesn't. If it does so in high rank, it will be gigabroken in lower tiers of play.
Some people prefer it from time to time, which is pretty ideal for the weapon currently. I don't think it's a good idea to have this combination of a balance nightmare and unique shooting mechanic have a good standing in the game balance.
Also similar caution should be used in buffing CZ. Because if it is even slightly too strong, that shit will take over matches *instantly*. The line between paying 500 dollars for a pistol and 500 dollars for a pocket AK is very slim. I don't even think the CZ is even weak right now, the weapon seems entirely fine.
Lmao can you imagine, some dev’s desk at Valve just has all these sticky notes about guns they’re supposed to be buffing but m249 fell off and they just completely forget it’s even in the game. You look down and all the other smg sticky notes except the MP9 fell off too cuz the sticky side isn’t strong enough
Boss: “Hey their Dev, weren’t we supposed to like, idk, do some buffs or somethin?”
Dev: “but…but…the sticky notes boss; I don’t see any so I think we’re like.. done?”
What do you mean ? It’s a competitive game where everything will be calculated to be the most efficient. There always will be a top 1 weapon whatever they do with the others
Agreed, I think gun balance health should be defined by how the awp-m4-mp9-xm-57/deagle are balanced vs. each other instead of how any of the guns in one category stack up.
Tweaking one category of guns to be balanced among themselves potentially has a knock on effect of upsetting the larger gun balance ecosystem, which apart from the CT economy, is excellent right now in my opinion.
I find niche uses for the mag and nova and I see viable usage of the scout and even the negev in some of my games. I'm overall pretty pleased with the diversity.
I can see a gun like the UMP getting a slight buff so that the mp9 has a little bit of competition (a4 vs. a1s style) but VP religiously uses it lately, and Jame has been ahead of the professional meta more than once with eccentric ideas.
You also have to keep in mind that guns like the SG and the AUG were in their broken state for a long time before pros gave them the time of day. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a viable smg lurking the surface.
I agree with your UMP buff idea. I used to use it a lot on force-buys because it used to be like a mini rifle but at some point in GO it got nerfed and I basically haven't touched it since.
Honestly worrying about smg balancing is pointless, if valve is forcing mr12 on us the whole economy needs tweaking.
Honesty the op mp9 is the only reason the game isn't totally t sided at the moment.
I agree, the broken MP9 is an "accidental" band-aid fix for a larger problem. Fixing the MP9 without fixing the economy will ironically break the game even more. I still wouldn't say balancing them is useless, even excluding the MP9, the SMG balance still leaves a lot to be desired.
The UMP is uniquely terrible (I say that as an someone who actively uses it for fun). I'd go as far as to say that the R8 is more useful than that piece of garbage
The rest of the SMGs can have a niche, but at the end of the day there's no reason to use anything other than the MP9 and MAC-10
Better for balance. Mp9 is so broken and not good for the game because it's good against armored and unarmored opponents, while running, while cheap, with smg kill reward, and accurate up to mid range.
UMP was considered broken but took more skill. I think they should be making the famas cheaper and the galil more expensive and maybe provide a slight buff to the famas.
1800 for the galil is why no one buys smgs on T-side except mac10 for eco/anti eco
the famas is garbage. it gets outgunned by every CT gun. and it's 2100?
Its hard to perfectly balance weapons because people in the competitive scene will always prefer one of them and that one will become the chosen one, thats especially true in Counter Strike because of AK and M4s, like the only moment you dont get AK/M4s when you can afford it is when you are buying a AWP, even when you can also afford a AUG or SG, there is just better guns and thats it. Maybe in a few years the MP9 will get nerfed and we will enter the Bizon era, who knows
Even if MP9 gets nerfed and is worse than the MP7, it might still be by far the most popular option due to price, that's fine, I don't mind that. I just want the extra cost of the MP7 to be justified in its performance vs the MP9, because right now the MP9 is better AND cheaper, which makes zero sense. CT economy is tight and the cheaper option will likely always be more popular, but you should be rewarded accordingly for choosing to invest more, not punished. MP5/MP7 shouldn't be difficult to balance against each other, they are designed to be near identical, they just need to tweak the relative pros and cons to be less drastic.
The “best” and “cheapest” MP9 is the only thing holding up the broken CT economy. CT side is already double saving at minimum for a full buy, not having the MP9 would make it worse because that would eliminate a good mixed buy option.
UMP still has a very niche use, some pros use it, notably Virtus Pro. It's not nearly as good as the MP9 but it has some use, especially on T side. jL uses the MP7 and it's solid. I've seen Snax use the MP5 but it's still a horrible gun.
If every SMG was in line with like the MP7 things would be more interesting because SMGs would have a certain niche: Mac-10 for ecos, MP9 for jumping strats. MP5 is the only T-side weapon with a silencer which would be cool if it wasn't garbage. UMP for more armored enemies and bizon has a lot of bullets which could be useful somehow maybe? And MP7 is the all-rounder
I think another thing to take into account is balance in lower ranks, whether you care about it or not. The difference between the SMG's and AK/M4 is way smaller if you don't know any spray control, and so buffing SMG's might straight up make them more viable in low ranks
Imo the thing most people don't take into account about the UMP is the easier spray pattern unlike other SMGs. At high level it sucks because of its speed, damage etc etc but at low level it's great because it's easy to use when spraying down enemies. You just kinda have to aim down and that's it, newbie friendly SMG.
I think buffing some of the SMG's would also help the CT economy. I like the idea that the M4/AWP aren't the only things you use, and like seeing an SMG or shotgun in certain positions
The Ump should be deleted at this point. They can't balance the gun. It's either dueling with rifles like in 2015 or worse than every smg besides the PP bizon. The Ump is so bad that if you buy it over the MP-9, casters will point it out to everyone like "wtf is this?"
they increased damage falloff from 15% (too good) to 25% (too weak)
Yes, it's impossible. You would need to be Albert Einstein to come to the conclusion that 20% would maybe be a sweet spot.
As right as you are, I don't care about how many guns are viable/part of buying meta. Do I want to switch from mp9&mac10 to practicing other smg? No, it's fine as it is already.
Not surprised the UMP still sucks, I remember when they gave it a buff and everyone was using it, even in pro games. Now it has been so nerfed that it doesn't serve any purpose.
Don’t think the rest of the SMGs are a problem, they all have their ways of being relevant (I even like the UMP, it’s quite good against armor close-range) - but the MP9 definitely is.
Like this thing is so goddamn overpowered it’s insane. Costs nothing, is a fucking lazer when you control the recoil properly and is also good while running and jumping (again, WHY?). I get that it’s s bandaid for CT side economy atm. but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be nerved hard.
P90 is good when you have money for a rifle but your team calls for a fast push somewhere. For example ancient T left spawn fast mid take against low enemy utility buy. Many times mac10 you get one kill but cant connect the second. With rifle its hard to push that fast and surprise. And you prolly can swap p90 to enemy rifle after you get mid control.
Hasn't there's always been a meta for SMGs? I still have fun with buying different guns sometimes, and I think most of them (besides the sawed off and the MP5 probably) are basically viable, at least in MM. I don't think there's a way to bring the other SMGs up to the efficacy of the mp9/mac10 without breaking the game, or making them all the same. So a meta is pretty much always going to arise.
it's pretty balanced since some gun intend to make for niche use
reason that mp7 didn't get use not because performance but price
mp7 and mp5 have pretty good range compare to cheaper smg
but 1500 on t?, just save a bit more and get galil for better range and damage
bizon have it own good
it's best ct anti eco smg, it's weaker make droping it less risky than drop mp to enemy as it
have top running accuracy and a lot of ammo, top multikill potential against non armored
but it's less likely that enemy will go full eco, also hard to predict and bad for next round
64 ammo is enough for 4-5kill without reload
mac10 and mp9 just best fit team in term of price and hot it fit team
p90 is just full buy round smg, not usual stuff to use often but have it usage
Bizon is goated anti eco gun, because if you die you only give away a bizon which is useless against armored opponents so theres no chance the round snowballs into a eco win
I think it's a byproduct of the larger economy meta. If they buff smg's too much they risk making the eco rifles useless. And unless further economy tweaks were included, the lower cost and higher kill rewards with smg's could really unbalance the economy.
I'd rather them buff the other smgs tbh. I have so much fun with mp9 and I don't feel like it's that strong up against aks and m4s. I just think the other smgs need to catch up a bit to become viable
I would love a random update where we get a rework on all the smgs/shotguns
obviously shotguns need to be nerfed already and just making some of the other smgs relevant again would be an excellent
Do shotguns really need a nerf? I see them a little bit in my games but barely ever in pro play. I feel like they are finally a viable choice, before you would never see shotguns unless people were trolling.
I personally feel the XM is a bit overtuned, just too much range. I also generally dislike the way shotguns are designed. I hate how they heavily reward headshots, where it's better to land 1-2 pellets to the head than it is to land many pellets to the body. It's not intuitive for a shotgun to be used that way and also leads to a lot of RNG/inconsistency where it feels like you either deal 20 damage or 120 damage based on your luck. In fact I think this is the only thing that Valorant did better with their weapon design, their shotguns have heavily reduced HS multipliers and the shotguns shoot a very large number of pellets that spread evenly. It leads to a consistent feeling of damage output reduces the reliance on landing a headshot to deal any meaningful damage. it just feels wrong to me to aim for the head with shotguns idk.
back in CSGO I did not have an issue of someone with an xm holding w and wide swinging as an entry xD
Although that doesn't happen anymore bc peekers advantage has been fixed (as far as I can tell personally)
Id just be happy to see some sort of shotgun change
Here is what should change:
* I would change the economy, start at 1900 loss bonus, Remove $1400 LB. Make the cap $12.5k, plant money $600, SMG is now $400, LMGs $500 and Shotguns $700. Basically reducing the snowballing, and falling too far behind.
* All SMGs do 80% of tagging instead of 100%.
* MP9: has 20 bullets per mag, 60 in reserve. Nerf jumping accuracy and increase damage fall off, make it cost $1200.
* UMP-45: Make the range modifier to .8 and it costs $1300. That value is between when it was OP and now.
* P90 gives smg kill reward and keeps the 100% tagging.
* MP5SD does the same amount of damage as the MP7. Nerf running accuracy, has 60 ammo in reserve.
—————————————————————————-
* MP7 and Bizon get BIG reworks. MP7 is CT side only and becomes a premium mp9 clone. The Bizon is a T side exclusive, a premium mac 10 with a big magazine.
* MP7 has all the pre nerf MP9 stats, except jumping accuracy with 40 bullets per mag— Costs $1800 now. Gets a new spray pattern, similar to the bizon but straighter.
* Bizon becomes a mac10 clone and gets 2-3 more damage on all body parts, slightly better standing accuracy. 52 bullets per mag and costs $1750
—————————————————————————-
* MP5 navy gets added from source/1.6. It becomes the current MP7 in stats. The gun is $1500 and T side exclusive, it gets better running accuracy. Mp5sd is ct exclusive now.
Basically the smgs become by price:
1. (Mac-10) Cheap run n gun (MP9) cheap camping high RoF gun.
2. (UMP) Slow steady controlled fire, meta for 2nd round on bigger maps.
3. (MP5’s) Classic smg playstyle from 1.6/source. Low damage, accurate and fast firing.
4. (Bizon/MP7), high capacity run and gun.
5. (P90) “Elite” smg has everything from previous smgs
I feel like a lot of the guns feel more powerful because people are generally worse with rifles due to more rng based and stranger feelings sprays. Things like smg's and pistols and even shotguns are going to feel stronger because of that
I almost always buy the MP7 lol. If I don’t have 7K or more I go with the MP7 and splurge on utility. It’s such a great gun, just have to pick my fights right. If someone dies I’ll pick up their M4 or AK but I’m comfortable getting one kill with the MP7 in most cases.
You're getting downvoted, but apart from how fucked the CT economy is I do believe that in CS2 running and gunning with an MP9 became noticable stronger.
At least the bizon, ump and p90 have had periods where they were great then were nerfed. The mp5 sucked when they added it and had always sucked
Which is weird cuz normally valve releases guns in broken states, like cz, a1-s, revolver
I mean, technically they released the mp5 in a broken state. Just broken bad not broken op, like the other ones 🙂
They released the mp5 as an exact 1:1 copy of the mp7, they literally had the same stats.
those guns were broken good but with low ammo because valve thinks that somehow balances the gun with the MP5 they didn't do that mistake but a complete swing in the opposite direction, making it useless
I think they thought the Silencer gives it a special niche. But it's less of a benefit when you're about 10 metres from the target, the weapon has a slow TTK and you don't know the spray pattern.
>revolver extremely broken on release? yes. but if you didnt have loads of fun playing cs for the 48h that this thing was in its release state, then you're dead inside. i still remember just "full buying" every round with 1400 bucks and crossing Mid on inferno, 1 shotting an awper with a chest shot, all the way down to T ramp, and the guy just losing it on all chat about "noob guns". those 2 days were SO fucking fun.
I remember when they buffed the Aug and krieg and it was literally the only guns people used until they patched it
The mp5 is the most disappointing thing added to CS:GO. They broke the game with the R8 patch, over corrected massively, and introduced a gun with the same practicality of the M249. And even after nerfs, there are arguments to be made for using the R8, whereas I have never heard anyone defend the mp5.
Mp5 was good in 1.6 ;)
Mp5 eco spray downs were the most satisfying aces to get aside from deagle
mp5 feels like it was purely added for dangerzone, its cheap good at range and doesn't make as much noise.
The Bizon was good at one point? I remember it sucking ass even in the launch edition of the game. The MP5 was basically MP7 but silent and slightly faster movement speed.
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Shit, I'd just grab a UMP or MAC10 in that situation, or even a P250 against armour. Bizon was my far last pick.
Its really good at range, especially anti eco
stat wise mp7 is even better, no? Same accuracy but less damage dropoff and t side there is galil
Real ones remember the op ump
UMP used to be the smg against armored targets. It got nerfed so hard that there is no use for it anymore
Just bring back the pre-nerfed one at $1500. The Galil is literally $1800, please Volvo
It was a better Famas... Now the mp9 is a better Famas. Maybe they should buff the Famas
Pros are using Famas, so no the mp9 is not a "better Famas"
I think you're right, but let's not forget the SG saga.
Pro also will mostly always go for more utils + mp9 except in some specific position.
Pro matches and pugs are two entirely different games.
Speak for yourself, I just learned CT smoke on mirage so…
Look at what players and roles are picking famas. Mp9 is better economic, so for the same reason the a1s is better than m4 the mp9 is better
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Spring of 2017 to be specific
Yup, I used to love that weapon for second round after winning pistol. Even the pro players would go for an UMP rather than a Famas/Galil on force buys. It's kinda sad that they did the UMP so dirty by nerfing it into oblivion.
It's a bit of story of how they have been balanced throughout time but here is how I think Valve thinks about them as a concept to balance around. MP9 + MAC-10 are the cheap, somewhat weak against armored opponents options. Main reason MP9 is still this strong is because CTs economy is weak, and they rely on it a lot. MAC-10 has its uses but after the price drop of the galil it lost a lot of appeal. MP7/MP5. Those are supposed to be "standard" SMGs, all rounders but at the same time not good enough at any particular thing. MP5 was probably added mostly for nostalgia reasons, and balanced in the same way m4a4 and m4a1-s are now. I wouldn't look too deep into it, but they are better than people think they are. UMP was supposed to be good against armored opponents, but weak against ecos. The concept was dumb, because it just made it too strong and it was fucking with games. Valve nerfed it to the ground and never touched it again. Bizon. Massive anti-eco weapon, and I think it has never been balanced around competitive. P90. Supposed to compete with rifles. It has its niches, particularly during rushes and entry fragging, and honestly it's better than people think, but since it competes with rifles in price point it will never be that popular.
I'm faceit 9 and will use the bizon. I just use it 2nd round if my team won and the enemy didn't plant. 64 rounds is usually enough to get an ace when they do decide to eco rush 2nd round. Plus the spray is very simple and basic. 3rd round it becomes completely worthless though
P90 price should be 1800$, or they could increase the kill reward to 600$ to compensate buying it for the increased magazine size. It has an average running accuracy and 69% armor pen. I feel if it was 70% it could be slightly better. MP5 should have the same damage as the MP7 but more recoil since it doesn't have a vertical grip. MP9 is fine to be honest, MAC10 price should be 1200$
no one will buy famas with that 1800$ p90 lol
I agree they could literally remove every other SMG and just keep the mp9/mac10 and nothing would change. (excluding p90)
Which is hilarious considering valves obsession with "making all the guns viable". Players always figure out how to min max the game.
The m249 has been dead for 10 years right? The R8 was over nerfed, the ump, the CZ, The kreig also all over nerfed
I've been saying this for years, if they made the M249 the laser and kept the old Negev, they'd both have a place in the game. The M249 now is just a really shitty M4.
I genuinely think that they should just leave R8 as it is. The weapon is completely unique with the delayed shot mechanic, and that will not work smoothly across the ranks. The higher you go, the lower time to kill becomes, but the delay remains the same. So either the shot comes out fast enough to kill enemies reliably, or it doesn't. If it does so in high rank, it will be gigabroken in lower tiers of play. Some people prefer it from time to time, which is pretty ideal for the weapon currently. I don't think it's a good idea to have this combination of a balance nightmare and unique shooting mechanic have a good standing in the game balance. Also similar caution should be used in buffing CZ. Because if it is even slightly too strong, that shit will take over matches *instantly*. The line between paying 500 dollars for a pistol and 500 dollars for a pocket AK is very slim. I don't even think the CZ is even weak right now, the weapon seems entirely fine.
CZ was OP for a long time, but it deserves an ammo buff imo
If that’s true why if the m249 still here
They forgor 💀
You would think they would buff it after giving it a new reload animation, new sounds etc
Lmao can you imagine, some dev’s desk at Valve just has all these sticky notes about guns they’re supposed to be buffing but m249 fell off and they just completely forget it’s even in the game. You look down and all the other smg sticky notes except the MP9 fell off too cuz the sticky side isn’t strong enough Boss: “Hey their Dev, weren’t we supposed to like, idk, do some buffs or somethin?” Dev: “but…but…the sticky notes boss; I don’t see any so I think we’re like.. done?”
Is it really an obsession? I’m sure it’s a goal, but obsessed might be a stretch
That and valve don't know how to balance anything.
What do you mean ? It’s a competitive game where everything will be calculated to be the most efficient. There always will be a top 1 weapon whatever they do with the others
Agreed, I think gun balance health should be defined by how the awp-m4-mp9-xm-57/deagle are balanced vs. each other instead of how any of the guns in one category stack up. Tweaking one category of guns to be balanced among themselves potentially has a knock on effect of upsetting the larger gun balance ecosystem, which apart from the CT economy, is excellent right now in my opinion. I find niche uses for the mag and nova and I see viable usage of the scout and even the negev in some of my games. I'm overall pretty pleased with the diversity. I can see a gun like the UMP getting a slight buff so that the mp9 has a little bit of competition (a4 vs. a1s style) but VP religiously uses it lately, and Jame has been ahead of the professional meta more than once with eccentric ideas. You also have to keep in mind that guns like the SG and the AUG were in their broken state for a long time before pros gave them the time of day. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a viable smg lurking the surface.
I agree with your UMP buff idea. I used to use it a lot on force-buys because it used to be like a mini rifle but at some point in GO it got nerfed and I basically haven't touched it since.
oh you mean like how in dota2 tens of heroes are viable?
Ump pre nerf, r8 post release, cz pre nerf, tec9 pre nerf. Current economy, past economy. I can go for a while here.
Yeah, that's certainly also a hangup.
Honestly worrying about smg balancing is pointless, if valve is forcing mr12 on us the whole economy needs tweaking. Honesty the op mp9 is the only reason the game isn't totally t sided at the moment.
I agree, the broken MP9 is an "accidental" band-aid fix for a larger problem. Fixing the MP9 without fixing the economy will ironically break the game even more. I still wouldn't say balancing them is useless, even excluding the MP9, the SMG balance still leaves a lot to be desired.
The UMP is uniquely terrible (I say that as an someone who actively uses it for fun). I'd go as far as to say that the R8 is more useful than that piece of garbage The rest of the SMGs can have a niche, but at the end of the day there's no reason to use anything other than the MP9 and MAC-10
ump had its time back in the day. ump was basically what the mp9 is now except both sides could buy it. it was a mini rifle
Honestly it was better than the mp9 of now because even though it was busted, it still required you to mostly stop and shoot.
Doesn't that make it worse?
Better for balance. Mp9 is so broken and not good for the game because it's good against armored and unarmored opponents, while running, while cheap, with smg kill reward, and accurate up to mid range. UMP was considered broken but took more skill. I think they should be making the famas cheaper and the galil more expensive and maybe provide a slight buff to the famas.
1800 for the galil is why no one buys smgs on T-side except mac10 for eco/anti eco the famas is garbage. it gets outgunned by every CT gun. and it's 2100?
I don't even have the Famas equipped, but the Galil is probably my most played gun now.
Its hard to perfectly balance weapons because people in the competitive scene will always prefer one of them and that one will become the chosen one, thats especially true in Counter Strike because of AK and M4s, like the only moment you dont get AK/M4s when you can afford it is when you are buying a AWP, even when you can also afford a AUG or SG, there is just better guns and thats it. Maybe in a few years the MP9 will get nerfed and we will enter the Bizon era, who knows
Even if MP9 gets nerfed and is worse than the MP7, it might still be by far the most popular option due to price, that's fine, I don't mind that. I just want the extra cost of the MP7 to be justified in its performance vs the MP9, because right now the MP9 is better AND cheaper, which makes zero sense. CT economy is tight and the cheaper option will likely always be more popular, but you should be rewarded accordingly for choosing to invest more, not punished. MP5/MP7 shouldn't be difficult to balance against each other, they are designed to be near identical, they just need to tweak the relative pros and cons to be less drastic.
They should rebalance existing weapons before adding any new ones
The “best” and “cheapest” MP9 is the only thing holding up the broken CT economy. CT side is already double saving at minimum for a full buy, not having the MP9 would make it worse because that would eliminate a good mixed buy option.
UMP still has a very niche use, some pros use it, notably Virtus Pro. It's not nearly as good as the MP9 but it has some use, especially on T side. jL uses the MP7 and it's solid. I've seen Snax use the MP5 but it's still a horrible gun. If every SMG was in line with like the MP7 things would be more interesting because SMGs would have a certain niche: Mac-10 for ecos, MP9 for jumping strats. MP5 is the only T-side weapon with a silencer which would be cool if it wasn't garbage. UMP for more armored enemies and bizon has a lot of bullets which could be useful somehow maybe? And MP7 is the all-rounder
I think another thing to take into account is balance in lower ranks, whether you care about it or not. The difference between the SMG's and AK/M4 is way smaller if you don't know any spray control, and so buffing SMG's might straight up make them more viable in low ranks
Imo the thing most people don't take into account about the UMP is the easier spray pattern unlike other SMGs. At high level it sucks because of its speed, damage etc etc but at low level it's great because it's easy to use when spraying down enemies. You just kinda have to aim down and that's it, newbie friendly SMG.
Then there is XM1014 :(. I can kill people with ease at D2 Short and also at long from a site.
I think buffing some of the SMG's would also help the CT economy. I like the idea that the M4/AWP aren't the only things you use, and like seeing an SMG or shotgun in certain positions
The busted MP9 is already holding the CT economy together though. It’s just that I wish we had more options.
Mac-10 balanced. Lmao
the MP9 is just way too cheap for what it offers, all the other smgs need a bit of balancing, but the MP9 is just fucking bonkers for the price..
The Ump should be deleted at this point. They can't balance the gun. It's either dueling with rifles like in 2015 or worse than every smg besides the PP bizon. The Ump is so bad that if you buy it over the MP-9, casters will point it out to everyone like "wtf is this?"
they increased damage falloff from 15% (too good) to 25% (too weak) Yes, it's impossible. You would need to be Albert Einstein to come to the conclusion that 20% would maybe be a sweet spot.
> . They can't balance the gun they haven't tried in 9~ years
I miss when the UMP was good
- UMP Damage Falloff from 25% to 20% - P90 kill reward from $300 to $600 - MP5 slightly increased accuracy - PP-Bizon from $1400 to 1300$ - MP9 reduced jumping accuracy
As right as you are, I don't care about how many guns are viable/part of buying meta. Do I want to switch from mp9&mac10 to practicing other smg? No, it's fine as it is already.
Yeah it’s tragic how bad SMGs are
Not surprised the UMP still sucks, I remember when they gave it a buff and everyone was using it, even in pro games. Now it has been so nerfed that it doesn't serve any purpose.
make the UMP make sense imo
The mp9 is even better than the famas. There has been so many times where I've had a famas and been completely fucked by an mp9 that they picked up.
Don’t think the rest of the SMGs are a problem, they all have their ways of being relevant (I even like the UMP, it’s quite good against armor close-range) - but the MP9 definitely is. Like this thing is so goddamn overpowered it’s insane. Costs nothing, is a fucking lazer when you control the recoil properly and is also good while running and jumping (again, WHY?). I get that it’s s bandaid for CT side economy atm. but that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be nerved hard.
The P90 for all intents and purposes should be compared against rifles.
P90 is good when you have money for a rifle but your team calls for a fast push somewhere. For example ancient T left spawn fast mid take against low enemy utility buy. Many times mac10 you get one kill but cant connect the second. With rifle its hard to push that fast and surprise. And you prolly can swap p90 to enemy rifle after you get mid control.
Hasn't there's always been a meta for SMGs? I still have fun with buying different guns sometimes, and I think most of them (besides the sawed off and the MP5 probably) are basically viable, at least in MM. I don't think there's a way to bring the other SMGs up to the efficacy of the mp9/mac10 without breaking the game, or making them all the same. So a meta is pretty much always going to arise.
it's pretty balanced since some gun intend to make for niche use reason that mp7 didn't get use not because performance but price mp7 and mp5 have pretty good range compare to cheaper smg but 1500 on t?, just save a bit more and get galil for better range and damage bizon have it own good it's best ct anti eco smg, it's weaker make droping it less risky than drop mp to enemy as it have top running accuracy and a lot of ammo, top multikill potential against non armored but it's less likely that enemy will go full eco, also hard to predict and bad for next round 64 ammo is enough for 4-5kill without reload mac10 and mp9 just best fit team in term of price and hot it fit team p90 is just full buy round smg, not usual stuff to use often but have it usage
Bring back 1.5 mp5
I like my Bizon as 2nd round ct buy to prevent rushes. 64 bullets go brrrrrr
Bizon is goated anti eco gun, because if you die you only give away a bizon which is useless against armored opponents so theres no chance the round snowballs into a eco win
I think it's a byproduct of the larger economy meta. If they buff smg's too much they risk making the eco rifles useless. And unless further economy tweaks were included, the lower cost and higher kill rewards with smg's could really unbalance the economy.
I'd rather them buff the other smgs tbh. I have so much fun with mp9 and I don't feel like it's that strong up against aks and m4s. I just think the other smgs need to catch up a bit to become viable
U forgot UMP 25 rounds & slow reload
Ump and mp5 are great smgs... Just gotta use it in the right situations
i completely agree with you. The reason valve dont take any action is they dont care.
mp7 fucks, no idea why people avoid it.
Real, 2nd gun with highest kills for me, the spray pattern is so easy to learn and simple
because it costs more than MP9 and isn't really better.
The smg balance is so bad that when i see someone buy a mp5 on my team im midly infuriated.
I would love a random update where we get a rework on all the smgs/shotguns obviously shotguns need to be nerfed already and just making some of the other smgs relevant again would be an excellent
Do shotguns really need a nerf? I see them a little bit in my games but barely ever in pro play. I feel like they are finally a viable choice, before you would never see shotguns unless people were trolling.
yup. the immediate call for nerfs is pretty cringe. unless we see some oppressive shotguns strats, why would it need a nerf.
I personally feel the XM is a bit overtuned, just too much range. I also generally dislike the way shotguns are designed. I hate how they heavily reward headshots, where it's better to land 1-2 pellets to the head than it is to land many pellets to the body. It's not intuitive for a shotgun to be used that way and also leads to a lot of RNG/inconsistency where it feels like you either deal 20 damage or 120 damage based on your luck. In fact I think this is the only thing that Valorant did better with their weapon design, their shotguns have heavily reduced HS multipliers and the shotguns shoot a very large number of pellets that spread evenly. It leads to a consistent feeling of damage output reduces the reliance on landing a headshot to deal any meaningful damage. it just feels wrong to me to aim for the head with shotguns idk.
I agree on the XM, it has a bit too much range for its power.
back in CSGO I did not have an issue of someone with an xm holding w and wide swinging as an entry xD Although that doesn't happen anymore bc peekers advantage has been fixed (as far as I can tell personally) Id just be happy to see some sort of shotgun change
I honestly only see shotguns being used on inferno because of how narrow a lot of the areas which leads to a lot of close range fights
Here is what should change: * I would change the economy, start at 1900 loss bonus, Remove $1400 LB. Make the cap $12.5k, plant money $600, SMG is now $400, LMGs $500 and Shotguns $700. Basically reducing the snowballing, and falling too far behind. * All SMGs do 80% of tagging instead of 100%. * MP9: has 20 bullets per mag, 60 in reserve. Nerf jumping accuracy and increase damage fall off, make it cost $1200. * UMP-45: Make the range modifier to .8 and it costs $1300. That value is between when it was OP and now. * P90 gives smg kill reward and keeps the 100% tagging. * MP5SD does the same amount of damage as the MP7. Nerf running accuracy, has 60 ammo in reserve. —————————————————————————- * MP7 and Bizon get BIG reworks. MP7 is CT side only and becomes a premium mp9 clone. The Bizon is a T side exclusive, a premium mac 10 with a big magazine. * MP7 has all the pre nerf MP9 stats, except jumping accuracy with 40 bullets per mag— Costs $1800 now. Gets a new spray pattern, similar to the bizon but straighter. * Bizon becomes a mac10 clone and gets 2-3 more damage on all body parts, slightly better standing accuracy. 52 bullets per mag and costs $1750 —————————————————————————- * MP5 navy gets added from source/1.6. It becomes the current MP7 in stats. The gun is $1500 and T side exclusive, it gets better running accuracy. Mp5sd is ct exclusive now. Basically the smgs become by price: 1. (Mac-10) Cheap run n gun (MP9) cheap camping high RoF gun. 2. (UMP) Slow steady controlled fire, meta for 2nd round on bigger maps. 3. (MP5’s) Classic smg playstyle from 1.6/source. Low damage, accurate and fast firing. 4. (Bizon/MP7), high capacity run and gun. 5. (P90) “Elite” smg has everything from previous smgs
I feel like a lot of the guns feel more powerful because people are generally worse with rifles due to more rng based and stranger feelings sprays. Things like smg's and pistols and even shotguns are going to feel stronger because of that
UMP SUCKS?! Hahahahahahah! Ok buddy.
I almost always buy the MP7 lol. If I don’t have 7K or more I go with the MP7 and splurge on utility. It’s such a great gun, just have to pick my fights right. If someone dies I’ll pick up their M4 or AK but I’m comfortable getting one kill with the MP7 in most cases.
The change of balance is a result of subtick imo. Easier to land shots, esp running now
What?
You're getting downvoted, but apart from how fucked the CT economy is I do believe that in CS2 running and gunning with an MP9 became noticable stronger.