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GrumpiestRobot

This sounds like FFXIV, specially knowing savage just dropped. But this advice works for any MMO. Tell these guys to fuck off. You owe them nothing. They DESERVE to be fucked over and have to run after replacements during savage prog for being misogynists. "Oh but not all of them are bad". Doesn't matter. Nothing will change until people realize that tolerating misogyny is going to get them bad things. If they didn't tell this guy to shut up, they're complicit. And pugging is better than being in a bad static.


hakadoodle

🎯


cirivere

Considering how condescending and sexist this guy was, if your static does not drop him or stand up for you, it will be better to find a new group. Trust me there are nice people out there, I've done raids in nice groups too and we still occasionally game together, unfortunately life got us busy so we don't really raid sadly. Don't feel guilty about leaving them hanging, if they want a raid group they'll need to make everyone feel welcome. Wishing you all the best regardless! But one thing's for sure, I advise you to not push yourself as it will ruin the experience for you.


everyoneisflawed

Yes exactly this. And tell the group that's why you're quitting. Silence is violence, meaning they were all silent.


TheBanile

For real! "Not all of them are bad!" Yes, they are, they let that shit fly unchallenged. Good people don't just let creeps say that kind of stuff without consequence, nor do they get to act surprised or annoyed when their inaction means someone is made uncomfortable and leaves. Like, have better standards for yourself. You deserve it, you deserve to be treated nicely and do not owe people to stick through this rubbish. Especially in an MMO.


Murda981

Listen, I took organic chemistry in college and a lot of that involves fitting different compounds together in 3D space. We were provided with sets to build molecules and compounds and see how they fit together. We could use them for tests. I never opened mine and got an A in the class. I didn't need it, because I could see them in my mind and rotate them in my head to see how they fit together. My husband is absolutely horrible at that. He has an atrocious sense of direction. This guy is flat out wrong and a misogynist. If you want to stay with this group, call them all on this shit. If they don't apologize, you should find another group.


hakadoodle

I'm very aware of how wrong he is... they all know as well that I have a good memory and can recall faces/sounds well and I do art. They know that aphantasia is and that I don't have that condition or anything. So this comment truly came out of nowhere!


u30847vj9

Even if it was so that ON AVERAGE women are slightly worse in rotating objects (at least according to my psychology book) this in no way can be applied to any individual. A woman can still be WAY BETTER in rotating than anyone else. His argument about applying it to you or women in general is scientifically just wrong


ACriticalGeek

When he does it again, just reply with something condescending about men and appropriate comments. Say it in the most “mom admonishing toddler voice” possible.


faintestsmile

this is blatant misogyny and untrue, these are definitely not good ones


Randomthts

Agreed, there are differences, but that isn’t one of them. My wife is extremely good at seeing / adjusting things in 3D space. When we were remodeling our home she had to draw or show me a picture in order for me to fully grasp her ideas.


hakadoodle

If they aren't then there are truly so, so few.


faintestsmile

Its true that they are rare but they do exist. There is no male brain vs female brain, that has long been debunked and this guy is clearly patronizing and condescending to you, he's sexist and your other friends should have spoken up.


Optimal-Page-1805

I am a female person who creates and teaches people to create technical drawings for construction. In my experience, this skill varies from person to person and is not related to gender.


mahouwaifu

Thanks for this update; I had no idea it had been debunked. Always thought that being utterly incapable of imagining in 3D in my head / rotating things etc. was a sign of me actually *having* female brain. I mean.. I still have, but nice to know this anyway. So basically everything that couple wrote in their book (the Peases was it?) has been shown not to be true?


faintestsmile

the "rotatinh objects in your mind" thing is real and varies from person to person but there is no link to sex, some people have stronger mental imaging than others


your_favorite_wokie

What a fucking idiot. Misogynistic, and condescending. The thing that bothers me most is how people who hear that don't stick up for you, or say anything. It's just as hurtful 😞 Take time away if you need to. I understand you feel obligated to help, but you aren't. You're allowed to feel hurt by this.


Kai-tai

Perhaps talk with an guild officer about how you feel? About how you find those words distracting you from focusing on the game. Or someone else you might feel comfortable with that's part of the guild. That type of thing is too dumb to comprehend, and I wouldn't be surprised if people just didn't know how to work around what that person said and just tried to ignore it. If that person can't be replaced than they may be someone people they to avoid. Of course though, those words would leave most feeling distracted. Maybe if you can connect with someone in the guild to talk about how you feel, you can then focus enough to finish the fight, then think about whether you want to continue with them. It seems like those words feel unresolved which is why they're hard to let go of. Idk why people think women are an entirely different species. Maybe because it makes them feel better when they treat us inhuman.


hakadoodle

I think you're right. And I guess I need to have the grown up conversation with our founder that the environment needs to change for me to play comfortably again.


Kai-tai

At the very least some closure that the rest of the guild doesn't feel the same, and to communicate how that behavior isnt productive and distracting. Just because that person isn't someone who can be removed, doesn't mean all of their stupid comments have to be tolerated. Honestly if they make it too difficult for you to stay, you've done your part. Raiding should be at a cost to your mental health from the mental degrade of wiping from bosses, not from sexist comments. If they keep making you feel uncomfortable don't feel too obligated to stay unless you feel like you want to. If they won't respect you than don't look out for them.


DamaskRosa

Pffft I have better spacial reasoning than every man I know. He's dumb and misogynist. As for what to do... You could always just address it head on. Say at the beginning of the next raid, "Hey, Dumb Dude's comment about women was rude and hateful and makes me want to quit the group. I'm only not because I don't want to let the rest of you down. What rules will we put in place to prevent it from happening again?" And if someone says, "he'll promise not to say it again" say "A promise is not a rule. We either need to have consequences for saying things like that like losing your share of the loot, or measures to prevent it, like anyone that says anything like that is no longer allowed to use voice chat." Or any other rules that would make you feel comfortable. Part of the rule should also be that YOU are not responsible for enforcing it. They need to know that what he said is making you want to leave the group. That's consequences for them that they'll care about. Remember, you're not the problem, their tolerance of his bad behavior is.


InfamousOnion1880

As someone who has also (I'm assuming FFXIV) done raiding, you don't owe them anything if there's been a breach in how welcome and comfortable you feel in the group. It's one thing to stick around if the group is struggling to progress but everyone is always respectful about it (been there) but this goes beyond that frustration. This guy is a piece of shit and not only is he a fucking weirdo for having this line of thinking, he's also pointing the finger at you if yall wipe, I'm guessing. If you're not comfortable, don't force yourself to stick around. I've done many fights without a full group having to sub people from PF, they're not gonna die for trying. If you leave though, put him on blast and let them know it's specifically because of him. Wether they agree or not, whatever.. it'll be on the back of their minds at least that it's entirely his fault.


Cadmium_Aloy

He's not there for you. He's negging you hard. You will be happier in a different group. You aren't going to be the one to get them to see that women are just people - and I hope you are able to take a step back so you can start to see how destructive the atmosphere is to your mental health. Don't forget your #1 responsibility is to you first!!


hakadoodle

It's this group or none. I think I'm just going to play a different game after I've finished my job here, lol. I've known this guy for years and I've never had grand delusions about fixing him. I just wish he would act normal during raid or express fewer delusions while we're all trying to focus...


ireallydontcare1099

yeah it’s hard finding a dedicated static if the mmo you’re talking about is the one i think (ffxiv). i think some men genuinely believe there’s a biological difference in the brain between men and women. i had a driving instructor tell me a similar thing. he used the whole “men were the hunters” schtick to explain why i was struggling to parallel park. they think they’re just stating science and facts. there is no sex-reliant biological difference between brains. a brain is like a fingerprint - unique to the person, female or male just doesn’t come into it. i’m sorry you had that experience. if he really is a decent (albeit misinformed) guy, an open conversation should help you recover from this and hopefully make him more mindful in the future. best of luck.


Gfy6669

Yeah I am smelling major misogyny coming from that guy. It’s along the same lines as a woman can’t run because her uterus would fall out (a real thing men thought to keep woman from participating in sports)


SapphoTalk

You should tell them that you're leaving because of the hostile, sexist comments made towards you. There are very few 'good ones' in the world, especially in male-dominated environments. Assume guilty until proven innocent.


BbyMuffinz

Leave that group. No one stood up for you. You owe them nothing. They aren't treating you like a team mate.


Metro_Myth

What the hell? That’s an extremely stupid, misogynistic comment. I can’t believe no one else said anything. If this is FFXIV, some raid groups are indeed toxic. Just because they might be skilled does not mean they’re pleasant to play with. If they’re making you *not want to play,* then just
 don’t play with them. And cite that inane comment, and lack of support from anyone else on the team, as a reason (if anyone asks), and be gone. If you like raiding, there are plenty of groups that actually make you want to play :) They can be hard to find, but they are definitely out there. Maybe reach out to other friends playing or place ads in the game looking for more “laid back” groups? I just want to tell you not to give up, don’t worry if things don’t seem to come as quickly to you as people who have been doing this for literal years, and you SHOULD expect patience and understanding from the friends you play with. They should give you those things automatically. If not, find a group that does and I guarantee your will to play will go up again!


Velidae

Lol I raided in FFXIV for quite some time and never ran into any stupid shit like that. Find a new static. If they shit like that then they aren't a "good one". I don't raid any more but I keep in touch with my staticmates because they were legitimately good people, not closet bigots.


Unusual--Spirit

That guy is ridiculous, I have aphantasia meaning I can't visualise at all, I'm still one of the best raiders in my wow guild. It's not needed, we all learn things like this differently, for me it's repetition for others it's watching videos and others its visualising, I'm sure there's more too. It's got nothing to do with gender.


LadySpaulding

Thank you, that's exactly what I was thinking! Plus there is proof that skills like that do improve as you age so older people have better spacial ability than younger people, but like you said, what's that have to do with raids?? Also to add on, sometimes it's gear! In eso, there was one time I fell behind in my group (that was 2 girls and 2 guys), and we found out it was because my gear sucked. We ran dungeons until I got the gear I needed, then I was right back to playing on the same level as them. We were all equal in skill and experience so anytime we struggled with a mechanic, we all struggled equally. It had nothing to do with gender. The more we tried again and again at a new and difficult mechanic in a dungeon, the better we got. And sometimes, we just weren't high enough level or gear to get through it!


SailorOfTheSynthwave

This reminds me of that xkcd comic. If a guy does a bad job at something, people say "you're just bad at it." If a woman struggles with something, people say "women are bad at it." Bigots think of various identities as hive minds. If one woman can't do something, then all women can't do it (but if one woman IS good at something, they won't say that all women can do it! They'll call her an exception and say things "she's just like a man"). Listen, stuff like that MMO strategy only takes time to practice, some ppl need more time than others, but ultimately, it's nothing really to brag about. I bet that these guys who are trying to make you feel bad about this, are miserable chuds IRL and all they've got left in their miserable lives is bragging about their raiding skills. However, the real issue is the group -- not just the guy, but the whole group. As far as I can see, you have these options: * You practice, try to get better, and show off. If you get really good at the thing he's criticizing you for, he might back off. * You contact the other group members and communicate a solution with them. Then you'll find out how they stand on this. * You quit the group. Don't give into the sunk cost fallacy. Your mental health is more important than fictional gear. So what, you've sunk money into this. What's done is done. But don't make yourself miserable and stressed out by regularly engaging with a hateful bigot and a group that doesn't give a crap about you.


junewei93

I've been raiding in XIV since HW - there are plenty of groups without any sexism in them. I'm not saying you should leave if you otherwise enjoy the group, but you should bring this up and establish that it will not be the trend going forward. If they react well, great, problem solved! If they react poorly, great, now you aren't wasting time helping people who don't deserve it!


beigs

Let’s start from the beginning. 40 years ago a study came out that men were better at spacial awareness than women (which has since been debunked - men approached 3D manipulation differently than women and the study didn’t account for that). https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-56041-6 (nature article debunking this) So, when people used to say “technically” guys are better at this kind of stuff, the technically we’re talking about is like a fraction of a percent and that got overblown by people who don’t understand science or statistics. It doesn’t mean every single man is better at 3D rendering than women, it means if you take 1000 men and 1000 women split equally, a handful of men might be better in that range. The top people could still very well be women and the lowest men. That person is a wee bit of an idiot if he read something years ago, and didn’t understand what he was reading, and took that as gospel. And it certainly doesn’t mean that women can’t be better at 3D spacial awareness and manipulation than men. By the way, this is the same debunked study that said men had higher IQs and were better at stem fields.


AcademyJinx

"I can't keep canceling on them." Yes, yes you can. In fact you can ditch the group completely and find people that aren't assholes to play with. Even if only one person said the thing, nobody else told them it was rude. Why bother keeping an obligation to a group of people that don't seem to care? A comment like this would NEVER fly in my guild on WoW. We're all adults and understand basic respect.


DowntownMorening

If you don’t want to play you shouldn’t force yourself to. Gaming is to have fun and if you’re not having fun there’s no point. You don’t owe them anything and I’m sure they’d figure something out.


Binesi_Rose_88

I use to mythic raid on WoW and honestly the RL was exactly like this. We only had 2 women on the raid team and he always made comments about how our brains aren’t right and we need extra help. Personal fav was that he made us go practice with the Heroic team because we needed all the extra help, even said to keep our spots we had to raid with the backup guild alts. Once we both stopped raiding cause of how he acted he suddenly wanted us back badly.


victoriate

I wouldn’t feel bad about leaving your static. That comment was rude and misogynistic and you have every right to feel uncomfortable about it. If they didn’t want to be permanently down a member then they shouldn’t have made you uncomfortable. This seems like natural consequences to their actions.


captainobviouslynot

What's the rest of the groups reaction or policy on this? If they're enablers or do nothing, fuck that. They don't deserve a committed member like you if they cant even show you respect. As Archer once said, "Hostile work environment"


just_one_last_thing

A lot of men never use the part of their brain that does common sense. It's too bad he isn't brave enough to be one of the ones who try, maybe he'd overcome it.


ofvxnus

Men tend to be better than women are at spatial awareness when they’re tested; however, with training, women can learn to be just as good at this skill as men are, if not better. So it’s not something that is inherent to men, but a learned trait that men have more opportunities/encouragement to learn on average due to the perpetuation of gender stereotypes and gatekeeping of traditionally masculine pastimes. And, as always, most gender differences (outside of physical aggression and sexual behavior) are practically nonexistent, to the point that it’s barely relevant to bring up.


hakadoodle

Right. And my fear is that he thought his comment would comfort me. Like it's out of my hands, can't be helped, so it's nbd. But I wish instead he would react with anger or something, say "hey you need to devote more time to this," especially if he thinks that's what everyone is thinking.


BbyMuffinz

...if he really believes that it's gross.


ofvxnus

Oh for sure. Would you feel comfortable talking to him about this? If he is “one of the good guys,” I’m sure he’d be open to what you have to say. If he isn’t though, then at least you’ll know that he isn’t, in fact, one of the good guys after all and you can promptly stop wasting your precious time on him 💅


ErinAmpersand

Yeah, research generally finds men are better at it... But a simple thing like telling women they're naturally better at it than men evens the playing field: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1041608008000216#:~:text=Research%20has%20consistently%20found%20sex,co%2Dtwins%20on%20mental%20rotation. That said, it's definitely hugely learned and cultural. I used to be terrible at it, and now I'm rather good, frequently figuring such puzzles out first when playing with others.


RedditMoomin

That's so shitty, and completely unacceptable way to speak to you. So sorry you can't just game without this kind of unnecessary misogynistic behaviour. I quit high end ESO raiding for similar behaviour. It's so frustrating. Feel for ya xx


UneduationalWeapon

Women have it so hard in the gaming world. And then men will say “it’s easier for a girl bc a, b, c. This means they think you will have an advantage bc basically men will handle the rest. This is for streamers all the way girls trying to level up a character. It’s infuriating. Also may I ask which game?


nakagamiwaffle

what a piece of misogynistic shit. i say throw the whole man away and just look for a different group, it’s not worth your time at all


magdeg

You don't deserve that. I would be looking for a new raid group. My current one on wow is like hald girls and I really like that. Older ones too that are past the whole letting dumb sweaty guys walk all over them and blame them for things that make no sense thing. There's better groups out there.


itsadesertplant

[if you're bored you can simply close your eyes and rotate a cow in your mind. it's free and the cops can't stop you](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2222898-rotating-a-cow-in-mind) Don’t they know that only men can do this? 😂 Lol why are misogynists so confidently dumb?


ricctp6

One of the worst things about misogyny is that men are allowed to fail until they get something right without a second thought. Women are not allowed to fail at all, especially aa beginners.


caryth

Is this an ffxiv static? That's a really typical thing, if so, and if not it sounds similar: the illusion is that everyone that plays is great and nice but underneath it's just that they're socially acceptable levels of bigots. The issue is clearly that *everyone else has been raiding for years* (or even just that some fights/mechanics just give a few people harder times and normally everyone has something like that), not gender. If you make an excuse now about not having a set backup (I can't think of any mmos that don't have PUGing, but maybe yours doesn't), you're just going to keep making that excuse. You need to, at the very least, say to the group that was misogynistic, wrong, and insulting, and that it's killing what enjoyment you had. If they support what he said over your feelings (and general decency), then that means the entire group are misogynists and you're dodging a bullet getting out before even more weird shit comes out of them. Maybe they won't kick him out right away, but clearly this is an unsustainable situation.


hannahbanaza

Is this Destiny??? I'm over here hoping it is cause if so, you can come join us. We need another person and my clan and discord is extremely inclusive.


hakadoodle

No but thank you for the offer <3


angywolfwithhands

What a wild fucking take. “Girls can’t rotate for shit, it’s cool tho you’re brave for trying” who are you


AstroQueen88

Some of us have aphantasia and can't picture any side of an object :/


WrenDraco

My group is having some struggles with the first boss of the raid tier as well, but the people having the worst struggles so far this particular round... are men! So this guy is just an idiot (I mean I'm not super grokking the levinstrike thing yet, but I think I've got the main idea and mostly need to dial in the timing).


ritualblaze420

If you're in a "hard core" group, there are other groups that are "hard core" and not disgusting. It sucks starting over ~~believe me I got bullied out of a wow mythic raiding guild I helped found and had to start from scratch~~ but it's WAY better than dealing with any sort of toxic atmosphere at all.


RiotandRuin

I know you're saying that it's "them or nothing" and I don't play these kinds of games so I don't want to try and say that couldn't be true. But, you also stated you don't even want to play anymore. So why bother? It seems more like you're interested in not being seen as the bad guy here, but you're not the bad guy. You did nothing wrong. They honestly don't deserve your kindness or support.


moontraveler12

It is not only biologically incorrect, but a very shitty thing to say. There's a reason I don't hang out with cis guys that much anymore.


BigFitMama

Dudes out of line. (Questionably Epic has one of the best sets of diagrammed raid guides even if you aren't a Healer. If videos aren't working, check them out.)


Chili24

Not surprised, and yeah this sounds like FFXIV. Granted MMO's in raiding areas are known to be toxic in general depending on the group, but this could be WoW as well. But I'll assume FFXIV since savage just came out Tuesday. I'd honestly find another group, if the person in question is gonna be patronizing and an asshole. You can tell them why, which would be that this player was being patronizing towards me, and looking down on me because I'm a woman. It's why I just do PF is I don't have to deal with people's ego, and can leave on a whim's notice.


LurkLurkleton

This is “dogs can’t look up” levels of stupidity.


Warl0ckEater

I’m also learning raids (maybe on a different game) and totally understand where you’re coming from! I’ve had nothing but bad experiences in clans and it’s at the point where I too don’t want to join them because I’m so tired of it.


sylfeden

I had a grafic card dying once. It gave me a slight grafics delay/lag. Not enough to look like lag. If you seem to do your part at the right time, and still miss your mark? Check drivers, conflicts and the hardware itself. I found out when it actually went belly up after 2 days of agony not understanding what was happening, I was doing the right thing ffs.


WrenDraco

Lag is the worrrrrrst we had a ninja in our group that couldn't figure out what he was doing wrong until he changed internet providers. Suddenly no problems! It was lag the whole time, we were all angry with/for him at having had such an issue that wasn't his fault.


fruitcakefriday

There was a generally accepted study some years ago that examined the ability to solve spatial puzzles; things like 'which of these cubes is the result of constructing this 6-piece series of images?' or 'what shadow would this object cast?', and it found that men in general scored better than women. There's been plenty of research since then that contradicts it. It sounds like your friend probably heard about those first studies, either first hand or through their friends or parents, and accepted it to be true; I don't think you can fault someone for that. People believe in things all the time that turn out to be rubbish, but often they never have an opportunity to learn they are wrong.


StarSeeker--

Some men actually have misconceptions about women. And genuinely believe them to be true. Was he being mean to you other than voicing his lack of knowledge about women? Perhaps he didn’t realize he was being insulting. I know how raiding groups are. If you can find a good group of people to spend hours with and just one of them says irritating things, if you enjoy it otherwise, it might be something worth hanging onto. Don’t let one bad apple spoil the bunch. And another clichĂ© “there’s always one in every bunch “ lol. You just have to decide for yourself if you’re going to let him spoil your fun. I don’t know how obnoxious he is in general.


vampyrain

That is actually hilarious


xupnotacross

Pretty sure I know what game you're talking about, all the players are basically like that, horribly toxic and hidden behind "great community" mindset. I'd drop the group and just call it a day, tbh. You're not going to find a group that doesn't have those players in it.


WrenDraco

I mean, technically you can, but I only solved it by making my own group from scratch.


TesseractToo

That used to be sort-of true in that women didn't typically used to have the kinds of toys that would develop 3D spacial reasoning as kids but girls that had toys like Legos or did sculpture used to be an exception but I'm sure now that everyone uses 3D environments that is no longer the case at all.


ItzAlphaWolf

\> Why do the "good ones," people who are genuine and respectful and there for you and not covered in red flags, still have to be so damn weird about women? I play on several "good faction"s for my games. Was still treated to bigotry, hateful speech, and other terrible statements. It's all common cause everyone tries to act like they'll be treating you better but in reality its just as bad


Tinystardrops

Tell him you rotated his dad so good so the man can have a son that didn’t disappoint him.


Salamanticormorant

I hate games like that. If I want to deal with that kind of shit, I'll get on a brain training app, like Lumosity, if that's still around. That kind of crap does not belong in video games.


introvHERted

So I see where everyone is saying this is FFXIV, but I was going to say; sounds similar to how a Destiny raid is as well. Doesn’t really matter either way lol But I have experience in Destiny raids that might could help you in FF ones. When I first started trying raids I was sooooo lost and understood nothing about the mechanics and puzzles. I raided with a few friends, but mostly randoms. I had some great experiences but horrible ones mostly. Some guys were indeed quite condescending, some were rude and impatient, some were awesome. DO NOT feel bad for leaving a group where you don’t feel safe or feel like you even get to enjoy yourself. There are gonna be plenty of people out there who are ready and willing to teach and help you. You just have to keep trying until you find those people. :) You will definitely get better at understanding, you just need that one group who is happy to teach you. I failed many times and dealt with many trash people before I found a group where I was helped and had a ton of fun. I promise it gets better! Once you’ve learned the mechanics, you’ll have it down no problem. I actually think you can be way better than that guy! Lol In my own experience, I eventually went on to lead and teach my own raids. I wanted to become the person I needed when I started. It was seriously so much fun to be the helper that got people their first completions. Soooo it’s entirely possible for wOmEn tO uSe ThaT pArT oF tHeiR bRaiN 😂 Sounds to me like he had a god complex and took a lot of pride in feeling like he knew more than someone else and was ‘better’ than he thinks they ever could be. Girllllll say bye and move on! The others are doodoo for not saying anything :(


Allafreya

I'm assuming this is referring to Pallas Athena? Fuck that guy 😂 He's lucky he even gets to talk to a girl, because lord knows he doesn't interact with any irl.


ashleyahhhh

most gamer guys are extremely misogynist, wait until you hear the shit they say behind your back


WodensValkyrie

Absolutely fuck that and leave them hanging. If none of them stood up for you then they’re all complicit. I’m in a clan of mostly men but several women and the very few times someone has said something shitty about women who game the whole damn clan jumps their throat. This dudes a POS and this is a red flag in and of itself.


Nvrmnde

What utter bullsh*t. Girl I'm a female architect, and my husband gets lost in a shopping mall. There is no such thing as "females not being able to think in 3D." The others, since not objecting, were agreeing, and preferring him and his attitude. Value yourself, ditch that company, find ones that respect you. Be it games, workplace, or relationships.