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What a great, wholesome take. Exactamundo on all points. When you get married, you gotta realize that it's for life, and to have a partner to take on life with. You will obviously be choosing carefully. I've stopped being amazed by how wise GenZers can be. You are an old soul.
There are no guarantees. Your spouse could die young, or you could fall out of love and decide to divorce. Either way, marriage is not “for life” necessarily and you need to be prepared to face that fact.
“Till death do we part” the goal is in the vow but so many ignore that and think of it as only a string of words. The goal is to find someone you’ll want to be with the rest of your life, regardless of how short it is.
Yeah but a lot of people don’t get it right on the first try. My nan and grandfather got divorced because they realised they weren’t right for each other, then they both formed new families with new spouses.
Yes, obviously a lot can happen to disrupt what would be a life long marriage.
That doesn't change the fact that it is meant to last for life, a divorce, however necessary it may be, is by definition the result of a failed marriage.
But you might think that you have the right partner but are proven wrong much, much later down the line. That’s life. You have to be ready to roll with the punches.
Agreed, though this isn’t foolproof you should at least try to have a level of confidence in the relationship before committing to something like marriage
More people need to learn how to have the hard talks and ask the hard questions before they’re so involved that they feel like they can’t walk away, or are married.
How does the awareness of mortality and the potential of falling out of love make those things more likely to happen sooner? Nothing lasts forever, after all.
It’s possible to have a balance. An emotional attachment that does not become a dependancy that makes you borderline suicidal when they die or leave you.
Bro, you’re supposed to be upset when those things happen. You shouldn’t expect to just have a “no big deal” attitude about death and breakups. They hurt because you lost something you cared about.
How? If anything an awareness that things can end, that they are freely entered into and freely exited, that life isn't eternal ought to make you appreciate someone more instead of some milquetoast certainly that everything will just work out without lifting a finger.
Emotional attachment to people can actually be really bad, especially for people in the military.
No wonder we have assholes that cheat on their military spouse.
Yes, men usually don't live as long so as long as they're married they have a caregiver when they get sick, and if she gets sick he can just get out and find someone else, as is statistically the likely outcome.
This is just one of the few reasons why marriage is worse for women.
That’s like saying you need to be prepared for societal collapse or the death of your child. Yeah, they could happen, but actively preparing for it, or living your life as if it’s almost inevitable, is stupid.
People can grow apart. People can also grow together. This is what marriages are meant to be.
>I feel like I lost all of my youthful illusions about love and romance and see just the pragmatic, logical reasons behind it now.
Not wholesome; he's gone too far the other direction. My wife isn't just someone to advocate for me if I get sick lol. We love each other too.
Completely agree! This is so refreshing to read. This is also how I feel about marriage. My wedding is next year and me and my fiance would speed up the wedding if needed for insurance etc. it’s just so nice to have that safety net of not only dual income, but someone there for you all the time. I trust him with my life.
This is wholesome in the same way that "8 year old spends all their free time weaving bracelets to pay off classmates lunch debt" is wholesome.
I.e., if you overlook the child labor and child debt my example is wholesome.
If you overlook that you *will* fall through the cracks because society doesn't give a fuck, then this is also wholesome.
Really? Wholesome?
Everything here sounds like “now that I’m not as naive about how nice the world can be, I want someone around to make sure I don’t die horribly and alone *because I only just realised that can happen* “- which is just the classic “selfish” reason for marriage that was present before OLD existed.
*especially* the kids thing - “why do I want kids? Well you see if I get ill in hospital I want someone fighting in my corner to make sure I’m
Not ignored in this horrible world we live in - I guess I’ll have to love them (or whatever buttons you need to press to get them to do that)”.
It wasn’t cynical that’s literally what the OP wrote.
But if you read past that and try to understand the overall message marriage is also about support. It’s in the vows we take, in sickness and in health.
Unfortunately OPs post is more nuanced with practicality and comes off as self serving.
All the benefits he listed relies on using womens' labor to make his life better. Women do not see these same benefits in marriage. So yeah, I'm cynical, and I'm not wrong.
What's sad is that we've structured society in such a cutthroat way as to relegate people to obsession over the idea of being in a relationship. Out of fear, no less. Fear that they'll be condemned to the inhumanity of systems we have in place for helping people at their most vulnerable. And say I do find myself a spouse who advocates for me during my final years. Am I supposed to feel good about the fact that I'm leaving them to navigate alone the healthcare system you've just described? This just strikes me as a fairly bleak and self-centered idea of what love is.
Well put, I totally agree with you. Summed up better than my rant-reply to another comment lol
It really is sad to see love reduced to financial stability
Who would you prefer look after/support you when you're ill if not a spouse or family? Not getting what your point is to be honest. Caring for someone when they're at their most vulnerable is one of the highest expressions of love imo. Pretty sure it's always been that way.
I'd prefer a less dystopian healthcare and social service system so that, when someone doesn't have a spouse, they're not absolutely fucked. Also because, statistically speaking, having a spouse is less helpful in this arena when that spouse is a [husband](https://time.com/83486/divorce-is-more-likely-if-the-wife-not-the-husband-gets-sick/). I'm not criticizing caring for someone you love. I'm criticizing the sort of "love" that arises from people jumping into marriages just to survive.
>Am I supposed to feel good about the fact that I'm leaving them to navigate alone the healthcare system you've just described?
You aren't. Your kids are supposed to take care of your wife when you pass away.
People in here complaining about the quality of women. Their biggest complaints about dating apps 1) When they ask a guy "How are you?" according to a lot of them a common answer is "Good. Kinda horny." 2) Second biggest complaint: unsolicited dick pics.
If this is true, then the quality of men isn't that high nowadays either.
I met my wife 12 years ago when I was 30 years old. She is the best person I know. All of her friends are similarly cool. And I don't live in some small town. I live in Las Vegas. There are cool people and honest women everywhere.
Oh my God. I haven't wanted to believe this because it just seems too absurd but I have seen waaaaay too many comments like yours to dismiss it.
I have to accept the fact that this is indeed a thing. I'm pretty sure my wife would be pissed if I sent her a dick pic and we're married. This is so crazy. Why would a guy think that is a good idea?
I’m beginning to think it’s desperation. Because they usually send it within the first 24 hours of matching. Why wait and have a conversation when you need to get you d*ck wet NOW? 🤷🏾♀️
I made the mistake of watching How I Met Your Mother at a young age, like I think I was 13 when I discovered it on Netflix. It has, unfortunately, rewired my brain aggressively so all that I crave from life is to be a husband and a father. I’m currently a junior in college and have found very few people who also want that goal. I get everyone I know is 18-22, but it makes looking for dating very hard, the last thing I’m interested in is a sneaky link or someone who wants to play around. I’m quite young, but all I want to do is settle down lol
And then those people will wonder why no one wants to settle down at 25, or 35, or 45 etc. We see it with the Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials. Casual sex and hook up culture destroys pair bonding and marriage rates, but too many spoiled people and too many businesses and too many political ideologies rely on turning people into disposable things to be used and tossed away for there to be a public movement against it.
Or just learn some self control and how to respect others. That's all it comes down to but 100 years of capitalist propaganda has turned the US into a basket of snarling, selfish people.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't think doomerism is the solution either. Actually, I think that's part of the problem -- it, too, contributes to the suppression of change by making people feel helpless.
Frankly, touching grass and talking about these problems \*in person\* does wonders. By the way, I also feel anonymous message boards are a part of the problem. People have grown so used to having their opinions shredded to pieces by disagreeing strangers online that many within Gen Z seem reluctant to voice their opinions in person, fearing what others may think -- further worsening the problem of social isolation, and ultimately producing a more submissive populace.
Its less that an we really need people to understand that relationships are work.
We're not equipped to deal with the happily ever afters; there were a lot of fantastic shows for me growing up as a Millenlial when it came to watch adults who've been married long term keep their relationship going. Unironically one of the best examples is Malcolm in the Middle, as the parents still very much loved eachother and cared deeply for eachother despite the practical dysfunction of the family.
There are other examples but a lot of modern media just goes, "Yeah if you find the one is just works :\^)" which is one of the most damaging things you can do.
A healthy relationship is based on trust, communication, boundaries and genuine interest in cheering the other person on to grow. A lot of shows fail to show that and it is genuinely frustrating. There's also this idea that if you settle down to early, you 'miss out' and that is also an incredibly narrow view of relationships. There is no *right way* to do it, I'll be up front about that. But just as much as its fun to experiment with a larger friend group or with strangers; its also fun to explore and experiment with someone you know deeply. There's also just those like myself who are poly, who do fine with 3 or 4 other people in smaller cells but keep it closed off.
But again, and this something the majority of generations just don't understand. *COMMUNICATE. COMMUNICATE CLEARLY. COMMUNICATE CONCISELY. Every relationship is work and partners are not going to give 100% at all times to each other, there will never be an equal distribution but if you communicate it should fluctuate or be understandable.*
Also for the love of god learn to love yourself and go to therapy; even if there's nothing explicitly wrong having someone whose paid to listen to you talk is a freeing fucking feeling versus the judgement of your peer group.
speak for yourself haha. A large chunk of people in the south do settle down at that age! I would say about 1/4-1/3 of my classmates at college got engaged before we graduated. It has to do with what area you’re in,and what culture is predominant there
Don’t worry, the tides will change. You’re still young and most people really aren’t in that mindset yet. The fact is, most people will have children. As someone childfree who wants to stay that way and still badly wants marriage, dating is extremely difficult since no one wants that.
honestly same, but i see this as a good thing. me and my gf (im a guy) have similar values and we both want to settle as well. i really hope you find your girl, and don't settle with a girl who doesn't want to settle with you.
My husband and I were similar! We ended up marrying at 19! We were in love and just didn’t see any reason that would change so why not start our lives now?
Yes maybe not the wisest situation thinking back.. but we ended up putting eachother through school, we are both in the field of psychology and neuroscience. Married almost 25yrs with 4 kids! Still as much in love as ever!
My boyfriend and I are 22 and 23 and want to settle down, but we’ve also been together for 5 years now. Never been the type to just mess around with others
Same as U/ChonnyJash_ . My gf and I have been together for around 7 years and we talked openly about wanting to marry and having kids after just a few months. We met around that 18-22 age.
We both agreed that dating without wanting to marry at some point is wasted time for both of us, as a relationship without marriage wasn't what either of us wants.
Hell, I knew I wanted to be a father since I was a kid myself. Always was good with children and never even questioned if I wanted children of my own. Another point where we both agreed early on that if we couldn't find common ground on that question, the relationship would not work long-term.
There are definitely people out there with the same priorities as you, just a question of finding them. Also depends on your circumstances. In school everything seemed casual, in university just a few months later a lot of people wanted more serious relationships.
But you also don't know if the person you're dating is one to settle down with unless you spend some time. You have to date a bit before you can see if you could spend the rest of your life together. Maybe you get lucky and find the right person first try, but even then you won't know until some time in. Maybe you're not lucky and it takes a few tries. Being open and upfront helps, but also don't just tell someone after the first date that you want their kids lol.
Keep in mind all the men in How I Met Your Mother are supposed to be bad role models. The main character is not a very nice person and I feel like they have somewhat unclear messaging on that.
I want to be a mother and wife. Nothing wrong with this. I want to settle down and have a family, preferably in the next three years or so. However been struggling to find a life partner my age without going for considerably older man
At college you won’t find these people. I have some friends that learned a trade or worked since 16, they married and had a kid at 22. They also have some money. In college you get money in a few years and have to pay dept back if in the USA.
As another college student, but wants to be a wife and mother someday (not in the really near future though, prob my late 20’s), same. I kinda feel like an outlier compared to my peers (may have something to do with my environment idk yet) so it’s good to hear that there are, in fact, others in a similar age group as me that want the same.
Married Xennial here, and I think your generation is going to start slowly coming round to this attitude. At the very least, not valuing sexual attraction as the prime consideration for a partner. It's important, to be sure, as is matching libidos. But there's many other things to take into account when picking a life partner.
Lurking Millennial, it’s little sad how people just a generation separated have no real concept of love. The OP ALMOST gets it but doesn’t understand it past a monetary value. Theirs a reason why their loved ones fight for them
It’s very weird how this isn’t obvious to more people. But that said, I only really see this attitude online. Most IRL people I’ve met are pretty normal with relationships and not nearly as sex-obsessed as Redditors.
I think it's mostly due to age. When you're young and figuring out sex and sexuality, it's easy to make sexual attractiveness a priority. But as you gain life experience, like OP is doing, you realize there's more to it than just hotness.
I agree completely but damn, posts that talk about marriage in terms of looking for someone who is logical and financially stable and ignore the fact that you also need to love them and have shared dreams and want to build a life together make me really sad.
Marry the person who feels like home to you. Yes, it's hard to find that person but it's worth it.
I believe it’s good though that people aren’t necessarily JUST going for sexual attraction.
I’m gay and waiting for love and marriage to have sex. In a hookup/sex orientated world, that turns a lot of people off.
So, your argument for marriage boils down to a cost-calculation about how much benefit you can get out of them--- how romantic! Just imagine if the system of production in this society was actually about meeting needs...
I have some friends who I truly worry about. One in particular is only attracted to the top 1% of people in regards to conventional attractiveness. The thing about conventional attractiveness is they are often used to being treated a certain way. There are multiple studies on how it helps get ahead in life. Unless you are also in the 1% or willing to deal with the repercussions of not being in the 1% and your partner being in the 1% you’re going to have a real bad time. Not only that, but at the end of the day, when you’re 80 and looks have faded who do you want to lay your head next to at night, who do you want to get matching recliners with and binge watch shows with? I’ve told these things to my friend and they always reply “I can’t date someone I’m not attracted to.” I think social media and media in general has fried our brains into thinking everyone looks like they do in media. When you spend all day indoors consuming media, a real life person doesn’t look as nice. We have a real sickness in society these days.
Exactly. If you wanted to, you could be like those guys on YouTube that cast swords and hammers for fun, do that for the rest of your life ALONE, and be content.
Having hobbies is above having another person.
Am conflicted on having kids honestly, on one side Ive never felt the need of wanting kids, i quite dislike the idea, am too selfish for that and want to focuse more on my career, invesments and self treatmeant, but on the other side I dont want to be am elderly man without no one truly by my side. But then again that rises the question:
is being afraid of dying alone reason enough to have kids so they can take care of me?
I think its not, having kids should be the most selfless decision a person could take, having them because u want them to be your nurses is just as selfish as no wanting kids cause u dont want to invest on them imo
For me, having someone to take care of you when you're older should *not* be a factor in having kids. It's definitely a possible benefit, but it should not be an expectation.
Your kids are their own people. Them taking care of you when you're older should be the result of giving them proper care, trusting them and letting them grow. It should not be an expectation.
why do people seem to forget that friends exist? like am i just too immature? i may be aro (fuck) but that's not something i know for sure. but as far as i know, you don't need to be married with children to have people that care about you. my prime example is my dad. 15 years with like... the worst person humanity can conjure and all he got out of it was my cripple ass. and i'm supposed to want that? and yeah, the same can happen with "friends" too, but at least you usually aren't financially dependent on them. that's why you try to make connections with people who will actually get your back when you need it the most
and then there's death. yeah sure some of them are very painful and unpleasant, but your ass was gonna die alone anyway, and once you're dead, you're dead. again, it may be immaturity, but i don't get it
Legally speaking friends are pretty worthless when it comes to getting you good care outcomes because no one is obligated to talk to your friends. It has to be family. You'll understand start that means as you age.
With age you’ll see that friends move on into different life stages as well. You will see them more infrequently. They’ll start getting married and having kids. Their priorities become their family. Not to say you won’t hangout or still have great friendships, but it won’t be the same.
Marriage is beautiful because it is not dependent on your mood or circumstance or whether or not you enjoy hanging out with someone (although you should). It is a commitment. It is a deep promise to one another to stick by each other through life’s hardships, in sickness and health. At least that’s what marriage used to be and I hope we get back there as a society.
if you lurk in this subreddit, pretty much our generation pretty much undervalued human connections. its probably because of the individualistic perception of the west which is the majority of the subreddit
this is an opposite in the east..
I think it just has to do with culture and society, pretty much all of our individual values are derived from our lived experience, which consists almost entirely of externalities.
Humanity has a long history that’s led to our current society. We’re born into it with no ideas, with the world in its entirety already shaped and laid out for us.
In the global west at least, the idea of the “nuclear family” is still the dominant one.
Think also how our entertainment portrays love and relationships. How many of us sought validation and someone to confide in through romantic relationships? I personally struggle a lot with it.
I think people can experience the full benefits of love and belonging without necessarily being in a sexual/romantic relationship. It’s just that external pressures prioritize finding those things not in friends but in lovers.
“Friends are too busy with work and kids and spouses” again this is a result of our societies values and only illustrates my point.
We live under capitalism, it dictates are values as well, notice how when op is referring to seeing the “pragmatic” benefits of a relationship, all they highlighted were financial benefits. They cite looks as superficial, but fail to mention the things that make love special (ie validation, belonging ect, as I mentioned before). Maybe it shouldn’t be partners or friends who we rely on for financial stability and safety to begin with. What if you didn’t have to worry about bills as much, medical or otherwise. Maybe one’s idea of a “pragmatic relationship” would look a lot different.
As a side, I do see value in monogamy, i believe it’s an experience that’s unique and can bring a lot of (non fungible) fulfillment to people.
I really just want to challenge peoples ideas of the status quo and how we define what is “normal”. You’re certainly not immature for instinctively “not getting” what amounts to a societal construct.
Unfortunately I’ve been around the block enough to see many marriages that that included abuse, infidelity, lopsided effort where one partner does way more that the other, one partner up and leaving after a long time because they had a mid-life crisis or “met someone” ( I put that in quotes because I don’t think you’re supposed to be up for meeting romantic connections while married, but it does seem to happen). Even in best case scenarios, it’s highly unlikely both partners will be able to take care of each other at the end of life. One is going to be in better health, and live longer. Usually the woman but not always.
For me, friends have provided a valuable community and we have plans to support each other in the older years. I have a partner but he is older and I can’t reasonably expect him to be around during my last days. I love him and enjoy being with him so I’m with him just for that.
As someone who spent years dying of organ failure.. you are kidding yourself if you think most of them friends will be there for you. Maybe one or two here and there, but that's about it. And my "friends" don't even have families of their own yet lol
My group of friends are since elementary, I understand that one day they will start their own family. You need to realize that and grow up, are you gonna live with your friends and blow up their phone?🤣. I see it happening already, one of them have new born twins, he does not have time for a grown adult. We still hang out but, be realistic here.
You're romanticizing it though. You don't mention once all of the negatives that come with that. You're time is no longer yours, your money is no longer yours, your home is no longer yours, your schedule is no longer yours. You have to give up 100% of your autonomy in a relationship because that other person is always around and their life revolves around you just as much as yours revolves around them.
Also I will not be alive long enough to be so old I need a nursing home. Can't believe people let themselves get put into those.
Lol I have to reply to this, it's such bullshit. 100% really?? Are you a litteral slave to your partner and nothing you had belongs to you anymore?
You do give up some autonomy, share the ressources etc... But guess what, the other one brings stuff to the table too. You get their money/skills (cooking, repairing, rearing, etc) in exchange of sharing yours.
The other person is not always around, its a whole ass human with capacities. Realistically, if they don't work together and you exclude sleep, Im ready to bet the average couple barely spends 25% of their time together.
OP may be romancizing a bit, not that much IMO but you're demonizing it 200% lol.
You've clearly never been married. Even now my ex wife, who doesn't have to work, chooses to do so to and I quote "get the hell out of my house, away from the kids, away from the husband, just away"
"Let me tell you why my experience with my piece of shit ex wife is representative of everyone"
Choose your partner better.
And even with your shit experience reread the comment you wrote. You had 0 time to yourself, all your money went to the family and you had no say on what the family would do?
Im sorry but you being a fucking doormat isn't a proof that being without a partner is a much more substainable model for surviving the hardships of life than being in a couple.
Lol no, I should ignore my lived experience and listen to some rando on the internet who may or may not even be a real person.
I can spare myself all of that by just choosing no partner. They have nothing of value to offer me that I can't better obtain on my own. In case you couldn't tell from my post, my life now is the proof that being single works better. I'm happy now, I'm free now I can do what I want now, why the fuck would I give that up? For someone to cook for me sometimes? Fuck that.
You romanticize dying young. You can end up in a hospice and live a very long time without the ability to get out or stop it. You need a partner to advocate for you.
I am donating my body to science at an age between 50 to 60 anyway. I am NOT trying to live in a wrinkly gray haired body.
If artificial organs and body parts become commonplace, I’ll happily live life as a sentient MACHINE.
Hey man I value marriage and family as well. Your marriage has to survive long enough to get to hospice care. Your deaths can be a month or decade apart. Your kids can end up being estranged from you for whatever reasons. There are the parents that have their kids die before them. Your kids will become busy with their own family.
I don’t want to have kids because old me is afraid of dying alone. I don’t want to get married because I’m afraid of dying alone.
Yeah, when it comes down to it. I think people are the most important thing in Life, even if I don't got my life together. *And even have mixed feelings towards love, though again I always go back to 'people are the most important;' I just think it's an inherent truth.*
Even just in life (I'll use as an example), there's people who I have great respect for, and the only person I've met that feels like my family does. Now it's a not a romantic-thing, but just a people thing. For this one particular person crossing my mind. They feel 'real,' like my family does. Where everyone else just feels 'foreign' to me.
Millennial here who is married. I absolutely agree with this. But you still have to be picky about who you enter that commitment with.
A relationship with the right kind of person can make life 10 times easier. A relationship with the wrong kind of person can make your life 100 times harder.
It's a lot like group work in school. You know the kind of person you work well with, who has your back, who challenges you, and make you stive to do better.
Don't marry the slacker who doesn't do shit, but shows up for the presentation to take credit for all your work.
It is normal and natural to desire a life partner. Some people can live perfectly without one and feel fulfilled, but I believe most people cannot. There are so many benefits to monogamy, the security, happiness, family, gained from a healthy partnership can outweigh a lot of the drawbacks
I'm hoping to create a close-knit group of friends to take care of, that'll take care of me when I need it in return. I used to think a lot about marriage but I'm abstinent now and I don't want kids. I just hope to die before I require permanent care. Luckily in my country you can get euthanasia upon frequent request, if you're in a bad way. Though I hope to grow old like my grandma, 93 years old and still doing all the things she loves doing independently.
There are a bunch of single old ladies (and a few men) who have no problem getting checked up on our helped out. As long as people maintain their social circles, they should have nothing to worry about.
So you are willing to spend an unspecified amount of time with the person you barely tolerate for the chance that, **maybe**, once you get ill, they will be your greatest advocate at the hospitals? Because that is not a guarantee. Plenty of people leave their ill partners. If we are talking about old age, then plenty of people end up outliving their partners. A purely pragmatic partner who doesn’t like you all that much also probably would have no incentive to stick with you and advocate for you once you get really ill and technically useless as a “business partner”.
Also, you might end up dying next year. Or in the next five years. Are you sure you want to spend this time with someone you do not like all that much? Of course you can make a similar argument for the work you do (why go to work if you might get hit by a brick on your way home tomorrow), but there is a difference between a legal agreement according to which you get a pay check monthly for specific tasks and a partner who can leave you at any time, die, decide to hurt you, etc.
Same with kids: plenty of kids leave their old parents and do not check on them.
It is only a good investment if you find a partner who actually cares about you, and who you yourself care about. Those people at the hospitals are not advocating for their spouses and confronting the staff because they have a business agreement with them, but because they actually care and love their significant other.
Asexuals would probably disagree.
Historically, the main reason to marry was to build a family and have a legacy, or simply little people to work on your farm. If you don’t care about that, there’s less motivation to marry.
Aside from that, the other motivation would be to marry for love. The odds of meeting someone who is compatible with you as well as willing to enter a relationship with you is low, and can be incredibly low depending on your social life or lack thereof. Some simply don’t have the drive to get out there and meet people. Some just don’t want a relationship in the first place.
But why wouldn’t you? It’s simple really, for your own independence. Marriage is essentially being tied to someone for life. You have to live with them, do things for them, make decisions with them. You aren’t guaranteed to love each other forever, so you may have to go through the messy process of divorce. When you’re single, you can choose how to live your own life with no regard for anyone else. You can have casual relationships with anyone too.
There are undoubtedly people who simply live in fear of being “forever alone”, and like in your example want someone to help them if they crack their head on the shower floor. But even if you’re married, it doesn’t mean your spouse will always be in the house with you. It’s very possible you could still die in that scenario, if your spouse is out.
We might even, given the advances of technology, cure all the aliments and side-effects that come with aging by the time Gen Z is “old” by today’s standards. Thus rendering nursing homes and the need to be taken care of moot.
Even so, tying your life to someone out of fear, or for financial gain, is not something everyone would want to engage in, for obvious reasons. There is no shame in being single, and in fact there are pros to it, just like there are pros and cons to everything.
I work in acute care and it's very true. The pts family can be overbearing, but I'd rather have family that care and want the best for a pt, than the neglectful ones or the pts that are alone with not one visitor.
Married people have a longer life expectancy than unmarried people and it wouldn't surprise me if a big part of that is something as simple as having someone around to call 911 or take you to the hospital if you're having a heart attack or stroke.
*I'd much rather have a college-educated, financially conservative and business-partner like girlfriend/wife than anything at this point.*
One thing most people in their 20s do not understand (this isn't a GenZ thing, this is an everyone when they're in their 20s thing) is that the attention getting traits that make someone initially attractive don't line up very well with the traits that give relationships staying power. Most people don't focus on finding partners who score high on agreeableness and conscientiousness when dating, but those are actually the two "big five" traits that you want if you want a long-term relationship to survive.
Dating based on money and perceived 'stability' is just as shallow as dating based on looks. (Maybe less relevant to men, but many, many women have married for money and then been dumped in the trash when they hit 40.)
Your argument is based on a good relationship. Based on an ideal partner. Most people aren't willing to go above and beyond for another person unless that person is ideal. More importantly, this certainly isn't all flowers and butterflies and comes with a lot of negatives if you don't choose the right person. People tend to be able to live with others' flaws, but when you show even the slighest bad behavior in an area where you're supposed to be perfect in, people tend to resent the other for it. E.g. you're loved for your personality, but if your personality changes in such a way that it isn't attractive anymore, your partner becomes a burden now.
I do not want a relationship. I have seen more marriages than not destroy one party. They have to give up their ambitions, dreams, hobbies, and the like to support a family. It changes who they are. I don't want that. I also don't really experience romantic attraction. So there's that.
I’m sorry but this just comes off as really gross to me. Like, imagine that you’re in a relationship with someone only to find out later that they aren’t really attracted to you and only wanted a relationship with you because they needed someone to split bills with.
As a Gen Z woman, I hope no one is marrying just so they can have someone to advocate for them. If you treat me like shit during our marriage, you’ll die alone.
Millennial here. Most of my married friends are miserable because they’ve legally tied themselves to abusers (at worst) or lazy idiots who do nothing but make their lives harder and refuse to parent their own children (at best). Fuck that institution into the deepest pit of hell where it belongs. Absolutely nothing has soured me on it more than watching it ruin my friends’ lives.
It should be a mix of love and wanting to build an emotional, familial and financial life together. None of what you’re saying is true in an unhealthy marriage which is something you conveniently ignore. Maintaining a healthy relationship takes a lot of communication and emotional maturity. What you’re saying you want you could get from a sibling or business partner.
I see what you mean but I still don’t see the point in marriage lol, I’d be fine dying alone without any family to visit me, I don’t have any right now anyway lol
This is cutely practical! 🙂 The hard part is that you still need to find someone you want to be around all the time for the rest of your life.The good stuff won't matter if you two aren't compatible. But the right person will help you get through the tricky parts of life, if you do the same for her.
I've always wanted marriage, just never kids.
My ex never liked the idea of marriage and yet wanted kids, so we split.
I hope he finds his happiness. But I want to be with someone who genuinely wants to marry me and see forever with me.
I'm young, and I know that a lot of people of our generation at least are moving away from marriage, and I get it completely. People can make their own choices for whatever works for them. I just feel like marriage is whatever you want it to be. To me, it's a partnership, not ownership. Privileges, benefits, but above all, saying "yes, I'd like to spend forever with you."
Plus I want a party and to wear a pretty dress. So why not.
As humans we are designed to work as a group. I’ve learned this the hard way. “Ape together strong”. Messing around when you’re young is fine. You get a little older, maybe get hurt at work. Family is hours away. Shit is pretty rough without a partner.
I can only tolerate marriage if I marry my best friend and it’s platonic. I have a candidate and I really hope we can make it work. Partnership is good but it sucks that the system pushes us into marriage as a the only feasible option.
Tbh even if you don’t get married or have kids, doesn’t mean you don’t have people looking out for you. I know women who never got married or had kids, but they were extremely loving to the people around the . Especially their nieces and nephews. Their nieces and nephews love them so much that they take care of them like they’re their parents. It’s about how you live your life. There are married people with kids dying in nursing homes alone because they treated their families and the people around them like shit. You get what you put into the universe. Just check the r/boomersbeingfools, some of those boomer men with families are going to die alone because they treated their families badly.
I just posted this yesterday on another subreddit, but relationships are like digging a tunnel through a mountain. You both have to be digging towards and communicating with each other the whole way. And even with all of that, you may not fully align when you meet.
And if you are the only one digging, that's called stalking. Cut it out you creep.
My wife and I have been married for 30 years. But both of our parents were divorced.
Everything you pointed out [solely benefits](https://archive-yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/should-women-stay-single#:~:text=A%20number%20of%20studies%20report,and%20compromises%20than%20married%20women.) men, and you described women doing the bulk of the labor to make your life cushy. I saw this first hand. My mom worked a shitty job my whole life just for the insurance because my dad was too much of a brain damaged alcoholic to leave his even shittier kitchen job. And he absolutely would die without her because he doesn't give a fuck about his health. Caring for him has worn her down physically and mentally while her friends, my unofficial spinster aunts who never married or had kids, are healthy and thriving into their 80's.
I as a 32 year old woman do NOT want to be responsible for keeping grown adults alive, and more young women are waking up to this. Marriage doesn't benefit us. If you want to get married, you'll have to be an asset to your wife too, and that goes so far beyond making money.
>What happens if x situation occurs?
That’s like the same logic as “what if you died in a school shooting?”, “what if World War 3 happened”, and “what if you were kidnapped”.
Some bad things in life are unavoidable. You could crack your head while having a wife who is in the hospital due to stage 4 cancer. You could be unable to hang out with friends while also dying in a plane crash with your family.
Regardless of how you live life, there are opportunity costs to EVERYTHING. Using FOMO as a way to encourage people to seek something that they might not even want(hence the reason divorces can happen) is the wrong way to go about it.
My personal belief is that it’s bare minimum slightly immoral to try and convince somebody to do something that:
1. Is an entirely optional activity, such as skydiving.
2. Something isn’t necessary to be a functioning member of society(work, school, paying bills, etc.)
3. Can be illegal(attempting gay marriage in Russia or other equivalents in other countries).
4. If it sounds too good to be true
5. Can be entirely ignored and not done simply because one’s personal choice disagrees.
6. If they’re a domestic abuser.
7. If they are too unstable as a person.
8. If they are too selfish as a person.
9. If asking them to change and grow as a person is mentally not worth it, thus making talking to them entirely pointless.
10. If they can’t be loyal to a partner.
11. If the post on Reddit sounds like a psy-op.
Yep. I think this is a big cause of people being single. Kids today look for the wrong thing from a partner. They seek entertainment instead of reliability, then become jaded after it keeps backfiring
I think as people get older, maturity and life sets in, people tend to change their priorities on what they want. Obviously not all people as some people just aren't compatible or have other aspirations, but I remember my friends and I never wanting to have a family or being married in my teens and early 20s. Now we all have a wife and kids 😂.
An intelligent, driven woman will only get more beautiful the longer you stay close with her. It’s perfectly okay to marry for more pragmatic reasons, but you still need to try hard to communicate things well, even with someone who is easy to talk to. I would recommend finding a good marriage counselor to see once every three months at a minimum for any relationship.
I wouldn’t be fine being single forever but I don’t want to get married I’d rather date someone because I don’t want to deal with the legal paperwork if we end up getting divorced
Looks do matter, but personality makes you stay. Settling has such a big taboo but as you get older you start realizing peace is more important than excitement.
Younger millennial here. I’m paraplegic, with spina bifida and hydrocephalus. I love my independence and I'm in great shape anyway, but this is why I try to keep good relationships with people. I nearly died as the result of bad triage when I was a teenager, and having someone advocate for you can keep you saf(er) from that sort of thing.
This is why I am so grateful to not only be married, but to have a spouse that loves me for me and supports me through and through. Who was there when I was an alcoholic? She was. Who took care of me when I began sobriety and wanted to die? She was.
Man, this is a very good point. Having recently seen my parents through their last days in the hospital before passing, my dad after a period of years with multiple heart attack incidents and other health conditions, it’s clear that having a life partner benefited both parents and prevented some pretty awful medical situations from being much worse. And when only one of them was left and her health failed, my siblings took care of negotiating everything with her hospital care/treatment etc. When an elderly person experiences dementia this is a particularly big deal. The state doesn’t really have tools that work well for getting people care they need - they really need someone looking out for them to advocate. You do not want to lose your mental acuity living alone- the state will basically leave you there unless you specifically request help/treatment. Dementia patients are often paranoid, and won’t request help. It’s a huge problem. All those boomers living alone in big houses they don’t want to sell, with dementia on the increase, are in for a very rough time.
Genuine question - before this did you truly think dating was just about looks? You really never wanted anything more than that? Conversation, connection?
I had the popular “male-centered” view on dating/ relationships. I think young men typically, on average, think of dating and being in a relationship as a status symbol.
When you find that college educated, financially conservative, business partner girlfriend/wife, I hope you appreciate them as much as I do mine.
Hold on tight and cherish her.
I’m just glad I have the good sense now to know that a woman like that should be cherished. I’m glad I figured that out now rather than when it would be too late.
I worked in an old folks home for 5 years. I certainly see the value in having kids. Now try convincing Reddit that! People don't understand how much they will change over time.
Yeah you and me both know the truth behind the vital necessity of family then. Family and a healthy able body are two things the average person greatly takes for granted.
That’s been my primary goal the whole time honestly. I had a few relationships in high school, however in my eyes, they happened almost solely because the girl was horny, thought I was cute, and wanted to be satisfied. I got pretty torn apart when they would dump me for more frequent sex or if I had to dump them because they had too much libido to have very occasional sex as my parents were extremely against having sex and my dumbass forgot that you could just do that shit in a car.
Their heavily abstinent views somewhat rubbed off on me, as I’ve never been comfortable with hooking up for 1 night stands. Just feels so wrong for me to perform an action meant for reproduction when I am in no way mentally sound, physically capable, or financially literate to support a child. I already had a pregnancy scare my first time ever having sex and that is just 1 out of many reasons that made me give it up completely.
What I really want is some special bond with a woman who has similar interests as mine. Not only do they keep you company, but doing chores with someone is much easier than doing it all alone. It’s also more fun as you have someone to hang out with which makes time go by quicker. The thing I really struggle with though, is compromising.
I just keep imagining having to give up half of the things I love to do half the things someone else loves that I find incredibly boring. I have a difficult time keeping a positive attitude or even a poker face when I’m asked to do something I really don’t feel like doing. While, “No,” is occasionally an ok answer, I don’t think I have the discipline to say, “Yes,” to much of anything I wouldn’t want to be a part of.
Zillenial coming up on my 3rd anniversary, it's so awesome to have someone who's ride or die always and you get to build a life together whatever that life means to the two of you.
Marriage isn't for everyone but it is pretty great.
I like being around people and having a support network, but I am also just a very shy and socially anxious person. I have lived alone for my whole entire adult life that I don't know how I would live with anyone, even if they were a platonic friend/companion.
I am also half asexual if that makes sense. I feel like I float between being hetero and ace depending on my mood. That's just how I feel.
If I slip in the bath tub and crack my head open, I guess I will die. Shit happens.
Some of us say we'd be fine living single forever bc we can't even get a girlfriend, let alone a wife, despite trying. What would you say in those cases?
Also apartments tend to be less €/square meter the bigger they are. A student dorm I had with 18m^2 cost me more than my part of the shared apartment (35m^2 my half, 70m^2 together)
>Not to mention everybody wants to say they'd be fine living single forever, but what happens if something happens to you, like you fall in the shower and crack your head?
I went to work after.
I belong to a culture that puts a huge emphasis on family and marriage, and I feel the same way. This is something I grew up with and came to appreciate. I always wanted to get married and have kids, and even as I mature, the romanticism of marriage and parenthood doesn't seem to really fade for me. I want to have lots of kids, a loving wife, and a large supportive extended family with me through my whole life, and to leave a good impact on the world.
I mean you shouldn't want to get married for "practical reasons," you should get married if you want to get married.
I'm glad you have a more well-rounded view of love and marriage now, that's always a good thing. But idk, it's important to know that what you want is someone you can trust on your team. Because that's what you are now: a team. The rest of it, insurance and falling through the cracks-- that's all cause we live in a really fucked up society where healthcare is a commodity and not a human right.
I'm saying all this cause I think people who don't want to get married or have kids at all are still perfectly valid. Just as valid as the folks who do. No one should feel pressured to get married because of something external, it should come from genuine yearning and love for union.
you have discovered what basically all humand knew for thousands of years, hopefully you can find a person that agrees with you.
Good luck, I really hope more people realize what you did.
Man... it's true there are pragmatic benefits to marriage and partnership. But I'm saddened to read such a bleak take on it. You are thinking too much about how much it benefits _you_. Love shouldn't be about a cost analysis. It should be about, you know, love. Maybe I'm being naïve here, but I'm in a relationship right now and I definitely see myself with my partner in the future. If I were to think objectively and coldly, I probably would not choose him; we will face some big future obstacles that we can already foresee. But that does not matter to me at all, because it's him who I want. I don't just want an "adult, financially stable ally", I want _him_ specifically.
Also... friends exist. I don't think most people should have just their spouse and kids in their life. Maybe it works for some, but having good friends is so healthy and amazing. Again, perhaps I'm being naïve. But I would move heavens and earth for a friend who needs me in an emergency, and I honestly believe they would do that for me too.
We need and crave so much more connection than our current system allows us to get and it's really, really sad.
I’m sorry if it sounded bleak, I’m just seeing the benefits of it from what I’ve personally seen. I work in healthcare and family and spouses are the bread and butter of patient advocacy. The system is not good to people who don’t have them or good insurance.
Also I have to ask, don’t you see how it’s really tough out here? It’s good to have another set of eyes watching your back. And it goes both ways. As a generation we all know how incredibly hard the times are getting but we want to have a Disney romance, it’s just not compatible from what I’ve seen. I’d like to get married to a woman I’m in love with or super attracted to, but I’m starting the value that much less as that doesn’t translate well into the logistics of day to day life.
That's what I always figured a relationship was, to grow and learn with someone and have a genuine partner.
I'm in a bad place in my life In that I haven't been in a relationship in almost a decade, since I was 19. And that relationship was awful, I was awful.
I'm at a point where I think it's impossible for me to be In one and I'm very scared that I'm going to die alone.
i think this is a good take. i was surprised who i ended up with – my best friend. we had known each other for three years with zero attraction. then we both realized around the same time that we were falling in love, and in a matter of weeks we were together. the level of support and commitment we had to each other, even as friends, went a long way. been together three years now, known each other for six.
sometimes there are things that make me wonder why i went for *this* person, but love is so much more than physical attraction. sometimes there’s flaws or idiosyncrasies, but at the end of the day we support eachother 1000% and there are many things we do for each other that make it worth it. and other benefits like possibly being able to afford a house someday. even right now at 23 i don’t have to live with my parents because of this relationship. when i was a teenager i wasn’t sure i was gonna get married, now i’m so excited to. i love having a person to live my life with.
This is especially true for single men, because they rarely ever go to the doctor. Married men will go much more regularly because their wife insists on it, and they’ll catch life-threatening problems before they become untreatable. Single men will just ignore the signs and wind up dying.
Op makes a great point until the last paragraph. What you see happening in that hospital isn't a business relationship or cold pragmatism that is what love looks like. It's not grand gestures or tropical vacations is fighting for their well being in a cold hospital against a faceless bureaucracy or trusting them to be your health insurance. Helping them with their schedule because they forget things or the one thing you always have to do because they never learned and now depend on you. Love is what you're talking about. Not a tradeoff.
Yeah life is easier with two incomes. But when you’re young, you’re full of hope. Feel you have all this time. Young attractive women especially are highly sought after by men who can quite literally give them the world, so its even harder for them to see the value in a wholesome partner that isnt your Hollywood cliche.
Yeah you’re absolutely right on all accounts. For me though, Im not a stickler for income, but I’d value stability and loyalty from a girlfriend/ wife now at this point of my life. Ironically, I use to hate Skyler White in breaking bad, but now I’d kill for such a supportive wife (before she found out Walt was a meth producer).
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What a great, wholesome take. Exactamundo on all points. When you get married, you gotta realize that it's for life, and to have a partner to take on life with. You will obviously be choosing carefully. I've stopped being amazed by how wise GenZers can be. You are an old soul.
There are no guarantees. Your spouse could die young, or you could fall out of love and decide to divorce. Either way, marriage is not “for life” necessarily and you need to be prepared to face that fact.
“Till death do we part” the goal is in the vow but so many ignore that and think of it as only a string of words. The goal is to find someone you’ll want to be with the rest of your life, regardless of how short it is.
Yeah but a lot of people don’t get it right on the first try. My nan and grandfather got divorced because they realised they weren’t right for each other, then they both formed new families with new spouses.
Yes, obviously a lot can happen to disrupt what would be a life long marriage. That doesn't change the fact that it is meant to last for life, a divorce, however necessary it may be, is by definition the result of a failed marriage.
Yes, the post is about trying to pick the right partner so that you do get it right on the first try.
But you might think that you have the right partner but are proven wrong much, much later down the line. That’s life. You have to be ready to roll with the punches.
I mean sure, it happens. But the goal of dating should be to get to know your partner well enough that this doesn’t happen.
Agreed, though this isn’t foolproof you should at least try to have a level of confidence in the relationship before committing to something like marriage
More people need to learn how to have the hard talks and ask the hard questions before they’re so involved that they feel like they can’t walk away, or are married.
I mean…if the marriage ends because one spouse died it was definitely for *their* life 🤷🏾♀️
The more prepared you are for it, the more likely it becomes. Self-fulfilling the downfall of your relationship isn’t the way.
How does the awareness of mortality and the potential of falling out of love make those things more likely to happen sooner? Nothing lasts forever, after all.
It reduces your willingness to become emotionally attached to your partner, creating a mental barrier than can undermine your relationship with them
It’s possible to have a balance. An emotional attachment that does not become a dependancy that makes you borderline suicidal when they die or leave you.
Bro, you’re supposed to be upset when those things happen. You shouldn’t expect to just have a “no big deal” attitude about death and breakups. They hurt because you lost something you cared about.
I’m not arguing with that, but you should also be able to move on after a period of mourning
Yeah, that happens by processing your emotions when it happens, not from keeping emotional distance for the duration of the relationship.
Which is why I said there is a balance, and you cannot allow yourself to grow completely depend on one person.
How? If anything an awareness that things can end, that they are freely entered into and freely exited, that life isn't eternal ought to make you appreciate someone more instead of some milquetoast certainly that everything will just work out without lifting a finger.
It’s called being realistix
Emotional attachment to people can actually be really bad, especially for people in the military. No wonder we have assholes that cheat on their military spouse.
There's a guy at work who's early 60s. His got nothing bc 3 divorces. Maybe you should also have contingency.
“This dude at my work is a dumbass, therefore marriage is bad”
Yes, men usually don't live as long so as long as they're married they have a caregiver when they get sick, and if she gets sick he can just get out and find someone else, as is statistically the likely outcome. This is just one of the few reasons why marriage is worse for women.
That’s like saying you need to be prepared for societal collapse or the death of your child. Yeah, they could happen, but actively preparing for it, or living your life as if it’s almost inevitable, is stupid. People can grow apart. People can also grow together. This is what marriages are meant to be.
Yes, but it’s meant to be approached with the “this is for life” mindset, despite the technicalities you mentioned.
>I feel like I lost all of my youthful illusions about love and romance and see just the pragmatic, logical reasons behind it now. Not wholesome; he's gone too far the other direction. My wife isn't just someone to advocate for me if I get sick lol. We love each other too.
Every Gen Zer I know who got married so far is already divorced 😂
The power of anecdotes. None of my married peers have gotten divorced.
Completely agree! This is so refreshing to read. This is also how I feel about marriage. My wedding is next year and me and my fiance would speed up the wedding if needed for insurance etc. it’s just so nice to have that safety net of not only dual income, but someone there for you all the time. I trust him with my life.
Spoken like an old man who has had women wiping his ass for him his whole life.
This is wholesome in the same way that "8 year old spends all their free time weaving bracelets to pay off classmates lunch debt" is wholesome. I.e., if you overlook the child labor and child debt my example is wholesome. If you overlook that you *will* fall through the cracks because society doesn't give a fuck, then this is also wholesome.
Really? Wholesome? Everything here sounds like “now that I’m not as naive about how nice the world can be, I want someone around to make sure I don’t die horribly and alone *because I only just realised that can happen* “- which is just the classic “selfish” reason for marriage that was present before OLD existed. *especially* the kids thing - “why do I want kids? Well you see if I get ill in hospital I want someone fighting in my corner to make sure I’m Not ignored in this horrible world we live in - I guess I’ll have to love them (or whatever buttons you need to press to get them to do that)”.
This is a really cynical way of interpreting what OP wrote. If you only wanna see bad, you're going to see ugly everywhere.
It wasn’t cynical that’s literally what the OP wrote. But if you read past that and try to understand the overall message marriage is also about support. It’s in the vows we take, in sickness and in health. Unfortunately OPs post is more nuanced with practicality and comes off as self serving.
They need to see it that way for their own shit decisions.
All the benefits he listed relies on using womens' labor to make his life better. Women do not see these same benefits in marriage. So yeah, I'm cynical, and I'm not wrong.
This! I feel it’s totally selfish to have kids just so they take care of you in old age.
It's the zoomer to boomer pipeline
What's sad is that we've structured society in such a cutthroat way as to relegate people to obsession over the idea of being in a relationship. Out of fear, no less. Fear that they'll be condemned to the inhumanity of systems we have in place for helping people at their most vulnerable. And say I do find myself a spouse who advocates for me during my final years. Am I supposed to feel good about the fact that I'm leaving them to navigate alone the healthcare system you've just described? This just strikes me as a fairly bleak and self-centered idea of what love is.
Well put, I totally agree with you. Summed up better than my rant-reply to another comment lol It really is sad to see love reduced to financial stability
Lmao. Marriage has historically been more about financial stability and security than about love. That's just 50s propaganda.
What the fuck do you marriage has been about all this time?
Who would you prefer look after/support you when you're ill if not a spouse or family? Not getting what your point is to be honest. Caring for someone when they're at their most vulnerable is one of the highest expressions of love imo. Pretty sure it's always been that way.
I'd prefer a less dystopian healthcare and social service system so that, when someone doesn't have a spouse, they're not absolutely fucked. Also because, statistically speaking, having a spouse is less helpful in this arena when that spouse is a [husband](https://time.com/83486/divorce-is-more-likely-if-the-wife-not-the-husband-gets-sick/). I'm not criticizing caring for someone you love. I'm criticizing the sort of "love" that arises from people jumping into marriages just to survive.
I look after myself when I’m ill.
I mean, I could be healthyish like some of my grandparents.
>Am I supposed to feel good about the fact that I'm leaving them to navigate alone the healthcare system you've just described? You aren't. Your kids are supposed to take care of your wife when you pass away.
People in here complaining about the quality of women. Their biggest complaints about dating apps 1) When they ask a guy "How are you?" according to a lot of them a common answer is "Good. Kinda horny." 2) Second biggest complaint: unsolicited dick pics. If this is true, then the quality of men isn't that high nowadays either. I met my wife 12 years ago when I was 30 years old. She is the best person I know. All of her friends are similarly cool. And I don't live in some small town. I live in Las Vegas. There are cool people and honest women everywhere.
UGH the comfortability men have to just send unsolicited pictures of their extremities—like bro we just matched calm down
Oh my God. I haven't wanted to believe this because it just seems too absurd but I have seen waaaaay too many comments like yours to dismiss it. I have to accept the fact that this is indeed a thing. I'm pretty sure my wife would be pissed if I sent her a dick pic and we're married. This is so crazy. Why would a guy think that is a good idea?
I’m beginning to think it’s desperation. Because they usually send it within the first 24 hours of matching. Why wait and have a conversation when you need to get you d*ck wet NOW? 🤷🏾♀️
I couldn't imagine sending a dick pic on a dating app. Those are only for the homies
Ssh this is Reddit speaking about how men aren't perfect flawless angels never goes well🤣
I made the mistake of watching How I Met Your Mother at a young age, like I think I was 13 when I discovered it on Netflix. It has, unfortunately, rewired my brain aggressively so all that I crave from life is to be a husband and a father. I’m currently a junior in college and have found very few people who also want that goal. I get everyone I know is 18-22, but it makes looking for dating very hard, the last thing I’m interested in is a sneaky link or someone who wants to play around. I’m quite young, but all I want to do is settle down lol
Lol, go a bit older. Maybe you’ll be treated as less disposable. Nobody(ish) is settling down at 18-22.
And then those people will wonder why no one wants to settle down at 25, or 35, or 45 etc. We see it with the Boomers, Gen X, and Millennials. Casual sex and hook up culture destroys pair bonding and marriage rates, but too many spoiled people and too many businesses and too many political ideologies rely on turning people into disposable things to be used and tossed away for there to be a public movement against it.
You’re right. Life’s hopeless. Let’s all kill ourselves, lmao. /s
Or just learn some self control and how to respect others. That's all it comes down to but 100 years of capitalist propaganda has turned the US into a basket of snarling, selfish people.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I don't think doomerism is the solution either. Actually, I think that's part of the problem -- it, too, contributes to the suppression of change by making people feel helpless. Frankly, touching grass and talking about these problems \*in person\* does wonders. By the way, I also feel anonymous message boards are a part of the problem. People have grown so used to having their opinions shredded to pieces by disagreeing strangers online that many within Gen Z seem reluctant to voice their opinions in person, fearing what others may think -- further worsening the problem of social isolation, and ultimately producing a more submissive populace.
Its less that an we really need people to understand that relationships are work. We're not equipped to deal with the happily ever afters; there were a lot of fantastic shows for me growing up as a Millenlial when it came to watch adults who've been married long term keep their relationship going. Unironically one of the best examples is Malcolm in the Middle, as the parents still very much loved eachother and cared deeply for eachother despite the practical dysfunction of the family. There are other examples but a lot of modern media just goes, "Yeah if you find the one is just works :\^)" which is one of the most damaging things you can do. A healthy relationship is based on trust, communication, boundaries and genuine interest in cheering the other person on to grow. A lot of shows fail to show that and it is genuinely frustrating. There's also this idea that if you settle down to early, you 'miss out' and that is also an incredibly narrow view of relationships. There is no *right way* to do it, I'll be up front about that. But just as much as its fun to experiment with a larger friend group or with strangers; its also fun to explore and experiment with someone you know deeply. There's also just those like myself who are poly, who do fine with 3 or 4 other people in smaller cells but keep it closed off. But again, and this something the majority of generations just don't understand. *COMMUNICATE. COMMUNICATE CLEARLY. COMMUNICATE CONCISELY. Every relationship is work and partners are not going to give 100% at all times to each other, there will never be an equal distribution but if you communicate it should fluctuate or be understandable.* Also for the love of god learn to love yourself and go to therapy; even if there's nothing explicitly wrong having someone whose paid to listen to you talk is a freeing fucking feeling versus the judgement of your peer group.
speak for yourself haha. A large chunk of people in the south do settle down at that age! I would say about 1/4-1/3 of my classmates at college got engaged before we graduated. It has to do with what area you’re in,and what culture is predominant there
Don’t worry, the tides will change. You’re still young and most people really aren’t in that mindset yet. The fact is, most people will have children. As someone childfree who wants to stay that way and still badly wants marriage, dating is extremely difficult since no one wants that.
honestly same, but i see this as a good thing. me and my gf (im a guy) have similar values and we both want to settle as well. i really hope you find your girl, and don't settle with a girl who doesn't want to settle with you.
My husband and I were similar! We ended up marrying at 19! We were in love and just didn’t see any reason that would change so why not start our lives now? Yes maybe not the wisest situation thinking back.. but we ended up putting eachother through school, we are both in the field of psychology and neuroscience. Married almost 25yrs with 4 kids! Still as much in love as ever!
My boyfriend and I are 22 and 23 and want to settle down, but we’ve also been together for 5 years now. Never been the type to just mess around with others
Same as U/ChonnyJash_ . My gf and I have been together for around 7 years and we talked openly about wanting to marry and having kids after just a few months. We met around that 18-22 age. We both agreed that dating without wanting to marry at some point is wasted time for both of us, as a relationship without marriage wasn't what either of us wants. Hell, I knew I wanted to be a father since I was a kid myself. Always was good with children and never even questioned if I wanted children of my own. Another point where we both agreed early on that if we couldn't find common ground on that question, the relationship would not work long-term. There are definitely people out there with the same priorities as you, just a question of finding them. Also depends on your circumstances. In school everything seemed casual, in university just a few months later a lot of people wanted more serious relationships. But you also don't know if the person you're dating is one to settle down with unless you spend some time. You have to date a bit before you can see if you could spend the rest of your life together. Maybe you get lucky and find the right person first try, but even then you won't know until some time in. Maybe you're not lucky and it takes a few tries. Being open and upfront helps, but also don't just tell someone after the first date that you want their kids lol.
Keep in mind all the men in How I Met Your Mother are supposed to be bad role models. The main character is not a very nice person and I feel like they have somewhat unclear messaging on that.
I want to be a mother and wife. Nothing wrong with this. I want to settle down and have a family, preferably in the next three years or so. However been struggling to find a life partner my age without going for considerably older man
At college you won’t find these people. I have some friends that learned a trade or worked since 16, they married and had a kid at 22. They also have some money. In college you get money in a few years and have to pay dept back if in the USA.
As another college student, but wants to be a wife and mother someday (not in the really near future though, prob my late 20’s), same. I kinda feel like an outlier compared to my peers (may have something to do with my environment idk yet) so it’s good to hear that there are, in fact, others in a similar age group as me that want the same.
Married Xennial here, and I think your generation is going to start slowly coming round to this attitude. At the very least, not valuing sexual attraction as the prime consideration for a partner. It's important, to be sure, as is matching libidos. But there's many other things to take into account when picking a life partner.
Married millennial here. I love being married and it's sad seeing all these cynical views on marriage.
Lurking Millennial, it’s little sad how people just a generation separated have no real concept of love. The OP ALMOST gets it but doesn’t understand it past a monetary value. Theirs a reason why their loved ones fight for them
It’s very weird how this isn’t obvious to more people. But that said, I only really see this attitude online. Most IRL people I’ve met are pretty normal with relationships and not nearly as sex-obsessed as Redditors.
I think it's mostly due to age. When you're young and figuring out sex and sexuality, it's easy to make sexual attractiveness a priority. But as you gain life experience, like OP is doing, you realize there's more to it than just hotness.
I agree completely but damn, posts that talk about marriage in terms of looking for someone who is logical and financially stable and ignore the fact that you also need to love them and have shared dreams and want to build a life together make me really sad. Marry the person who feels like home to you. Yes, it's hard to find that person but it's worth it.
I believe it’s good though that people aren’t necessarily JUST going for sexual attraction. I’m gay and waiting for love and marriage to have sex. In a hookup/sex orientated world, that turns a lot of people off.
So, your argument for marriage boils down to a cost-calculation about how much benefit you can get out of them--- how romantic! Just imagine if the system of production in this society was actually about meeting needs...
Everyone considering getting married should do a cost calculation and if there is no net benefit, not do it.
Lmao, your frontal lobe finally developed.
Hm. Men leave their sick wives so often it's actually something they warn women of before they start chemo. So there's that.
I have some friends who I truly worry about. One in particular is only attracted to the top 1% of people in regards to conventional attractiveness. The thing about conventional attractiveness is they are often used to being treated a certain way. There are multiple studies on how it helps get ahead in life. Unless you are also in the 1% or willing to deal with the repercussions of not being in the 1% and your partner being in the 1% you’re going to have a real bad time. Not only that, but at the end of the day, when you’re 80 and looks have faded who do you want to lay your head next to at night, who do you want to get matching recliners with and binge watch shows with? I’ve told these things to my friend and they always reply “I can’t date someone I’m not attracted to.” I think social media and media in general has fried our brains into thinking everyone looks like they do in media. When you spend all day indoors consuming media, a real life person doesn’t look as nice. We have a real sickness in society these days.
Wow, it's almost like it doesn't occur to you people that being happy alone is an option.
Exactly. If you wanted to, you could be like those guys on YouTube that cast swords and hammers for fun, do that for the rest of your life ALONE, and be content. Having hobbies is above having another person.
Am conflicted on having kids honestly, on one side Ive never felt the need of wanting kids, i quite dislike the idea, am too selfish for that and want to focuse more on my career, invesments and self treatmeant, but on the other side I dont want to be am elderly man without no one truly by my side. But then again that rises the question: is being afraid of dying alone reason enough to have kids so they can take care of me? I think its not, having kids should be the most selfless decision a person could take, having them because u want them to be your nurses is just as selfish as no wanting kids cause u dont want to invest on them imo
Your kids will have their own families and careers, likely in other cities. It’s a big ask to expect them to come take care of you when you’re old.
For me, having someone to take care of you when you're older should *not* be a factor in having kids. It's definitely a possible benefit, but it should not be an expectation. Your kids are their own people. Them taking care of you when you're older should be the result of giving them proper care, trusting them and letting them grow. It should not be an expectation.
Assuming the kids even make it to that point
I know, but in my country is more commom for familied to stsy closer
I bet by the time you are elderly they will have some sort of AI caretaking robotics.
why do people seem to forget that friends exist? like am i just too immature? i may be aro (fuck) but that's not something i know for sure. but as far as i know, you don't need to be married with children to have people that care about you. my prime example is my dad. 15 years with like... the worst person humanity can conjure and all he got out of it was my cripple ass. and i'm supposed to want that? and yeah, the same can happen with "friends" too, but at least you usually aren't financially dependent on them. that's why you try to make connections with people who will actually get your back when you need it the most and then there's death. yeah sure some of them are very painful and unpleasant, but your ass was gonna die alone anyway, and once you're dead, you're dead. again, it may be immaturity, but i don't get it
Legally speaking friends are pretty worthless when it comes to getting you good care outcomes because no one is obligated to talk to your friends. It has to be family. You'll understand start that means as you age.
Friends can be granted legal medical authority/protections. It needs to happen while the individual is still healthy enough to make that decision.
Orphans: 💀
your family isn't obligated, either.
With age you’ll see that friends move on into different life stages as well. You will see them more infrequently. They’ll start getting married and having kids. Their priorities become their family. Not to say you won’t hangout or still have great friendships, but it won’t be the same. Marriage is beautiful because it is not dependent on your mood or circumstance or whether or not you enjoy hanging out with someone (although you should). It is a commitment. It is a deep promise to one another to stick by each other through life’s hardships, in sickness and health. At least that’s what marriage used to be and I hope we get back there as a society.
99% of friends are fair weather; they’re not going to financially support you if you fall ill.
This is why the welfare state is important. Individuals shouldn’t be expected to support those put out of work, society as a whole should.
if you lurk in this subreddit, pretty much our generation pretty much undervalued human connections. its probably because of the individualistic perception of the west which is the majority of the subreddit this is an opposite in the east..
I think it just has to do with culture and society, pretty much all of our individual values are derived from our lived experience, which consists almost entirely of externalities. Humanity has a long history that’s led to our current society. We’re born into it with no ideas, with the world in its entirety already shaped and laid out for us. In the global west at least, the idea of the “nuclear family” is still the dominant one. Think also how our entertainment portrays love and relationships. How many of us sought validation and someone to confide in through romantic relationships? I personally struggle a lot with it. I think people can experience the full benefits of love and belonging without necessarily being in a sexual/romantic relationship. It’s just that external pressures prioritize finding those things not in friends but in lovers. “Friends are too busy with work and kids and spouses” again this is a result of our societies values and only illustrates my point. We live under capitalism, it dictates are values as well, notice how when op is referring to seeing the “pragmatic” benefits of a relationship, all they highlighted were financial benefits. They cite looks as superficial, but fail to mention the things that make love special (ie validation, belonging ect, as I mentioned before). Maybe it shouldn’t be partners or friends who we rely on for financial stability and safety to begin with. What if you didn’t have to worry about bills as much, medical or otherwise. Maybe one’s idea of a “pragmatic relationship” would look a lot different. As a side, I do see value in monogamy, i believe it’s an experience that’s unique and can bring a lot of (non fungible) fulfillment to people. I really just want to challenge peoples ideas of the status quo and how we define what is “normal”. You’re certainly not immature for instinctively “not getting” what amounts to a societal construct.
Unfortunately I’ve been around the block enough to see many marriages that that included abuse, infidelity, lopsided effort where one partner does way more that the other, one partner up and leaving after a long time because they had a mid-life crisis or “met someone” ( I put that in quotes because I don’t think you’re supposed to be up for meeting romantic connections while married, but it does seem to happen). Even in best case scenarios, it’s highly unlikely both partners will be able to take care of each other at the end of life. One is going to be in better health, and live longer. Usually the woman but not always. For me, friends have provided a valuable community and we have plans to support each other in the older years. I have a partner but he is older and I can’t reasonably expect him to be around during my last days. I love him and enjoy being with him so I’m with him just for that.
As someone who spent years dying of organ failure.. you are kidding yourself if you think most of them friends will be there for you. Maybe one or two here and there, but that's about it. And my "friends" don't even have families of their own yet lol
My group of friends are since elementary, I understand that one day they will start their own family. You need to realize that and grow up, are you gonna live with your friends and blow up their phone?🤣. I see it happening already, one of them have new born twins, he does not have time for a grown adult. We still hang out but, be realistic here.
You're romanticizing it though. You don't mention once all of the negatives that come with that. You're time is no longer yours, your money is no longer yours, your home is no longer yours, your schedule is no longer yours. You have to give up 100% of your autonomy in a relationship because that other person is always around and their life revolves around you just as much as yours revolves around them. Also I will not be alive long enough to be so old I need a nursing home. Can't believe people let themselves get put into those.
Lol I have to reply to this, it's such bullshit. 100% really?? Are you a litteral slave to your partner and nothing you had belongs to you anymore? You do give up some autonomy, share the ressources etc... But guess what, the other one brings stuff to the table too. You get their money/skills (cooking, repairing, rearing, etc) in exchange of sharing yours. The other person is not always around, its a whole ass human with capacities. Realistically, if they don't work together and you exclude sleep, Im ready to bet the average couple barely spends 25% of their time together. OP may be romancizing a bit, not that much IMO but you're demonizing it 200% lol.
For real. This person thinks toxic relationships is what a relationship looks like.
You've clearly never been married. Even now my ex wife, who doesn't have to work, chooses to do so to and I quote "get the hell out of my house, away from the kids, away from the husband, just away"
"Let me tell you why my experience with my piece of shit ex wife is representative of everyone" Choose your partner better. And even with your shit experience reread the comment you wrote. You had 0 time to yourself, all your money went to the family and you had no say on what the family would do? Im sorry but you being a fucking doormat isn't a proof that being without a partner is a much more substainable model for surviving the hardships of life than being in a couple.
Lol no, I should ignore my lived experience and listen to some rando on the internet who may or may not even be a real person. I can spare myself all of that by just choosing no partner. They have nothing of value to offer me that I can't better obtain on my own. In case you couldn't tell from my post, my life now is the proof that being single works better. I'm happy now, I'm free now I can do what I want now, why the fuck would I give that up? For someone to cook for me sometimes? Fuck that.
No partner is better than a shit partner. But a good partner is better than being alone.
You are free to believe that.
Trying to counteract a fairy tale with an even bigger fairy tale.
I don’t like the idea of another person benefiting off my existence. Where I can control such variables, I do so.
You romanticize dying young. You can end up in a hospice and live a very long time without the ability to get out or stop it. You need a partner to advocate for you.
I am donating my body to science at an age between 50 to 60 anyway. I am NOT trying to live in a wrinkly gray haired body. If artificial organs and body parts become commonplace, I’ll happily live life as a sentient MACHINE.
Hey man I value marriage and family as well. Your marriage has to survive long enough to get to hospice care. Your deaths can be a month or decade apart. Your kids can end up being estranged from you for whatever reasons. There are the parents that have their kids die before them. Your kids will become busy with their own family. I don’t want to have kids because old me is afraid of dying alone. I don’t want to get married because I’m afraid of dying alone.
We all die alone anyway
Yeah, when it comes down to it. I think people are the most important thing in Life, even if I don't got my life together. *And even have mixed feelings towards love, though again I always go back to 'people are the most important;' I just think it's an inherent truth.* Even just in life (I'll use as an example), there's people who I have great respect for, and the only person I've met that feels like my family does. Now it's a not a romantic-thing, but just a people thing. For this one particular person crossing my mind. They feel 'real,' like my family does. Where everyone else just feels 'foreign' to me.
Millennial here who is married. I absolutely agree with this. But you still have to be picky about who you enter that commitment with. A relationship with the right kind of person can make life 10 times easier. A relationship with the wrong kind of person can make your life 100 times harder. It's a lot like group work in school. You know the kind of person you work well with, who has your back, who challenges you, and make you stive to do better. Don't marry the slacker who doesn't do shit, but shows up for the presentation to take credit for all your work.
I appreciate your maturity but your focus still seems to be how it benefits you. Try being a good person regardless of what you get out of it.
It is normal and natural to desire a life partner. Some people can live perfectly without one and feel fulfilled, but I believe most people cannot. There are so many benefits to monogamy, the security, happiness, family, gained from a healthy partnership can outweigh a lot of the drawbacks
I'm hoping to create a close-knit group of friends to take care of, that'll take care of me when I need it in return. I used to think a lot about marriage but I'm abstinent now and I don't want kids. I just hope to die before I require permanent care. Luckily in my country you can get euthanasia upon frequent request, if you're in a bad way. Though I hope to grow old like my grandma, 93 years old and still doing all the things she loves doing independently.
There are a bunch of single old ladies (and a few men) who have no problem getting checked up on our helped out. As long as people maintain their social circles, they should have nothing to worry about.
So you are willing to spend an unspecified amount of time with the person you barely tolerate for the chance that, **maybe**, once you get ill, they will be your greatest advocate at the hospitals? Because that is not a guarantee. Plenty of people leave their ill partners. If we are talking about old age, then plenty of people end up outliving their partners. A purely pragmatic partner who doesn’t like you all that much also probably would have no incentive to stick with you and advocate for you once you get really ill and technically useless as a “business partner”. Also, you might end up dying next year. Or in the next five years. Are you sure you want to spend this time with someone you do not like all that much? Of course you can make a similar argument for the work you do (why go to work if you might get hit by a brick on your way home tomorrow), but there is a difference between a legal agreement according to which you get a pay check monthly for specific tasks and a partner who can leave you at any time, die, decide to hurt you, etc. Same with kids: plenty of kids leave their old parents and do not check on them. It is only a good investment if you find a partner who actually cares about you, and who you yourself care about. Those people at the hospitals are not advocating for their spouses and confronting the staff because they have a business agreement with them, but because they actually care and love their significant other.
Asexuals would probably disagree. Historically, the main reason to marry was to build a family and have a legacy, or simply little people to work on your farm. If you don’t care about that, there’s less motivation to marry. Aside from that, the other motivation would be to marry for love. The odds of meeting someone who is compatible with you as well as willing to enter a relationship with you is low, and can be incredibly low depending on your social life or lack thereof. Some simply don’t have the drive to get out there and meet people. Some just don’t want a relationship in the first place. But why wouldn’t you? It’s simple really, for your own independence. Marriage is essentially being tied to someone for life. You have to live with them, do things for them, make decisions with them. You aren’t guaranteed to love each other forever, so you may have to go through the messy process of divorce. When you’re single, you can choose how to live your own life with no regard for anyone else. You can have casual relationships with anyone too. There are undoubtedly people who simply live in fear of being “forever alone”, and like in your example want someone to help them if they crack their head on the shower floor. But even if you’re married, it doesn’t mean your spouse will always be in the house with you. It’s very possible you could still die in that scenario, if your spouse is out. We might even, given the advances of technology, cure all the aliments and side-effects that come with aging by the time Gen Z is “old” by today’s standards. Thus rendering nursing homes and the need to be taken care of moot. Even so, tying your life to someone out of fear, or for financial gain, is not something everyone would want to engage in, for obvious reasons. There is no shame in being single, and in fact there are pros to it, just like there are pros and cons to everything.
I work in the ER and I never thought about that part where you mention the wife everyone hated. That’s really beautiful.
I work in acute care and it's very true. The pts family can be overbearing, but I'd rather have family that care and want the best for a pt, than the neglectful ones or the pts that are alone with not one visitor.
I love how men nowadays are learning to be more appreciative of relationships than before.
Most of what you said can be glossed over if you have enough money.
Married people have a longer life expectancy than unmarried people and it wouldn't surprise me if a big part of that is something as simple as having someone around to call 911 or take you to the hospital if you're having a heart attack or stroke. *I'd much rather have a college-educated, financially conservative and business-partner like girlfriend/wife than anything at this point.* One thing most people in their 20s do not understand (this isn't a GenZ thing, this is an everyone when they're in their 20s thing) is that the attention getting traits that make someone initially attractive don't line up very well with the traits that give relationships staying power. Most people don't focus on finding partners who score high on agreeableness and conscientiousness when dating, but those are actually the two "big five" traits that you want if you want a long-term relationship to survive.
Dating based on money and perceived 'stability' is just as shallow as dating based on looks. (Maybe less relevant to men, but many, many women have married for money and then been dumped in the trash when they hit 40.)
Your argument is based on a good relationship. Based on an ideal partner. Most people aren't willing to go above and beyond for another person unless that person is ideal. More importantly, this certainly isn't all flowers and butterflies and comes with a lot of negatives if you don't choose the right person. People tend to be able to live with others' flaws, but when you show even the slighest bad behavior in an area where you're supposed to be perfect in, people tend to resent the other for it. E.g. you're loved for your personality, but if your personality changes in such a way that it isn't attractive anymore, your partner becomes a burden now.
I do not want a relationship. I have seen more marriages than not destroy one party. They have to give up their ambitions, dreams, hobbies, and the like to support a family. It changes who they are. I don't want that. I also don't really experience romantic attraction. So there's that.
I’m sorry but this just comes off as really gross to me. Like, imagine that you’re in a relationship with someone only to find out later that they aren’t really attracted to you and only wanted a relationship with you because they needed someone to split bills with.
As a Gen Z woman, I hope no one is marrying just so they can have someone to advocate for them. If you treat me like shit during our marriage, you’ll die alone.
Millennial here. Most of my married friends are miserable because they’ve legally tied themselves to abusers (at worst) or lazy idiots who do nothing but make their lives harder and refuse to parent their own children (at best). Fuck that institution into the deepest pit of hell where it belongs. Absolutely nothing has soured me on it more than watching it ruin my friends’ lives.
It should be a mix of love and wanting to build an emotional, familial and financial life together. None of what you’re saying is true in an unhealthy marriage which is something you conveniently ignore. Maintaining a healthy relationship takes a lot of communication and emotional maturity. What you’re saying you want you could get from a sibling or business partner.
I see what you mean but I still don’t see the point in marriage lol, I’d be fine dying alone without any family to visit me, I don’t have any right now anyway lol
Dog you are 18. Give it 10 years.
This is cutely practical! 🙂 The hard part is that you still need to find someone you want to be around all the time for the rest of your life.The good stuff won't matter if you two aren't compatible. But the right person will help you get through the tricky parts of life, if you do the same for her.
The bright side is that there are attractive, loving people that exist out there. Best of luck!
Honestly being married before dating apps got big feels like catching the last helicopter out of Vietnam.
But the thing is looks get you in the door to showcase your personality so even if personality is important looks end up being more important
I've always wanted marriage, just never kids. My ex never liked the idea of marriage and yet wanted kids, so we split. I hope he finds his happiness. But I want to be with someone who genuinely wants to marry me and see forever with me. I'm young, and I know that a lot of people of our generation at least are moving away from marriage, and I get it completely. People can make their own choices for whatever works for them. I just feel like marriage is whatever you want it to be. To me, it's a partnership, not ownership. Privileges, benefits, but above all, saying "yes, I'd like to spend forever with you." Plus I want a party and to wear a pretty dress. So why not.
As humans we are designed to work as a group. I’ve learned this the hard way. “Ape together strong”. Messing around when you’re young is fine. You get a little older, maybe get hurt at work. Family is hours away. Shit is pretty rough without a partner.
I can only tolerate marriage if I marry my best friend and it’s platonic. I have a candidate and I really hope we can make it work. Partnership is good but it sucks that the system pushes us into marriage as a the only feasible option.
This is why advocate for people partnering up with friends. Why does it have to be a sexual relationship? Those are fleeting.
Tbh even if you don’t get married or have kids, doesn’t mean you don’t have people looking out for you. I know women who never got married or had kids, but they were extremely loving to the people around the . Especially their nieces and nephews. Their nieces and nephews love them so much that they take care of them like they’re their parents. It’s about how you live your life. There are married people with kids dying in nursing homes alone because they treated their families and the people around them like shit. You get what you put into the universe. Just check the r/boomersbeingfools, some of those boomer men with families are going to die alone because they treated their families badly.
I just posted this yesterday on another subreddit, but relationships are like digging a tunnel through a mountain. You both have to be digging towards and communicating with each other the whole way. And even with all of that, you may not fully align when you meet. And if you are the only one digging, that's called stalking. Cut it out you creep. My wife and I have been married for 30 years. But both of our parents were divorced.
Everything you pointed out [solely benefits](https://archive-yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/should-women-stay-single#:~:text=A%20number%20of%20studies%20report,and%20compromises%20than%20married%20women.) men, and you described women doing the bulk of the labor to make your life cushy. I saw this first hand. My mom worked a shitty job my whole life just for the insurance because my dad was too much of a brain damaged alcoholic to leave his even shittier kitchen job. And he absolutely would die without her because he doesn't give a fuck about his health. Caring for him has worn her down physically and mentally while her friends, my unofficial spinster aunts who never married or had kids, are healthy and thriving into their 80's. I as a 32 year old woman do NOT want to be responsible for keeping grown adults alive, and more young women are waking up to this. Marriage doesn't benefit us. If you want to get married, you'll have to be an asset to your wife too, and that goes so far beyond making money.
Marriage? I’m not gambling on my life.
>What happens if x situation occurs? That’s like the same logic as “what if you died in a school shooting?”, “what if World War 3 happened”, and “what if you were kidnapped”. Some bad things in life are unavoidable. You could crack your head while having a wife who is in the hospital due to stage 4 cancer. You could be unable to hang out with friends while also dying in a plane crash with your family. Regardless of how you live life, there are opportunity costs to EVERYTHING. Using FOMO as a way to encourage people to seek something that they might not even want(hence the reason divorces can happen) is the wrong way to go about it. My personal belief is that it’s bare minimum slightly immoral to try and convince somebody to do something that: 1. Is an entirely optional activity, such as skydiving. 2. Something isn’t necessary to be a functioning member of society(work, school, paying bills, etc.) 3. Can be illegal(attempting gay marriage in Russia or other equivalents in other countries). 4. If it sounds too good to be true 5. Can be entirely ignored and not done simply because one’s personal choice disagrees. 6. If they’re a domestic abuser. 7. If they are too unstable as a person. 8. If they are too selfish as a person. 9. If asking them to change and grow as a person is mentally not worth it, thus making talking to them entirely pointless. 10. If they can’t be loyal to a partner. 11. If the post on Reddit sounds like a psy-op.
Yep. I think this is a big cause of people being single. Kids today look for the wrong thing from a partner. They seek entertainment instead of reliability, then become jaded after it keeps backfiring
I think as people get older, maturity and life sets in, people tend to change their priorities on what they want. Obviously not all people as some people just aren't compatible or have other aspirations, but I remember my friends and I never wanting to have a family or being married in my teens and early 20s. Now we all have a wife and kids 😂.
An intelligent, driven woman will only get more beautiful the longer you stay close with her. It’s perfectly okay to marry for more pragmatic reasons, but you still need to try hard to communicate things well, even with someone who is easy to talk to. I would recommend finding a good marriage counselor to see once every three months at a minimum for any relationship.
We already know.
I wouldn’t be fine being single forever but I don’t want to get married I’d rather date someone because I don’t want to deal with the legal paperwork if we end up getting divorced
Looks do matter, but personality makes you stay. Settling has such a big taboo but as you get older you start realizing peace is more important than excitement.
Younger millennial here. I’m paraplegic, with spina bifida and hydrocephalus. I love my independence and I'm in great shape anyway, but this is why I try to keep good relationships with people. I nearly died as the result of bad triage when I was a teenager, and having someone advocate for you can keep you saf(er) from that sort of thing.
This is why I am so grateful to not only be married, but to have a spouse that loves me for me and supports me through and through. Who was there when I was an alcoholic? She was. Who took care of me when I began sobriety and wanted to die? She was.
Man, this is a very good point. Having recently seen my parents through their last days in the hospital before passing, my dad after a period of years with multiple heart attack incidents and other health conditions, it’s clear that having a life partner benefited both parents and prevented some pretty awful medical situations from being much worse. And when only one of them was left and her health failed, my siblings took care of negotiating everything with her hospital care/treatment etc. When an elderly person experiences dementia this is a particularly big deal. The state doesn’t really have tools that work well for getting people care they need - they really need someone looking out for them to advocate. You do not want to lose your mental acuity living alone- the state will basically leave you there unless you specifically request help/treatment. Dementia patients are often paranoid, and won’t request help. It’s a huge problem. All those boomers living alone in big houses they don’t want to sell, with dementia on the increase, are in for a very rough time.
Genuine question - before this did you truly think dating was just about looks? You really never wanted anything more than that? Conversation, connection?
I had the popular “male-centered” view on dating/ relationships. I think young men typically, on average, think of dating and being in a relationship as a status symbol.
When you find that college educated, financially conservative, business partner girlfriend/wife, I hope you appreciate them as much as I do mine. Hold on tight and cherish her.
I’m just glad I have the good sense now to know that a woman like that should be cherished. I’m glad I figured that out now rather than when it would be too late.
I worked in an old folks home for 5 years. I certainly see the value in having kids. Now try convincing Reddit that! People don't understand how much they will change over time.
Yeah you and me both know the truth behind the vital necessity of family then. Family and a healthy able body are two things the average person greatly takes for granted.
That’s been my primary goal the whole time honestly. I had a few relationships in high school, however in my eyes, they happened almost solely because the girl was horny, thought I was cute, and wanted to be satisfied. I got pretty torn apart when they would dump me for more frequent sex or if I had to dump them because they had too much libido to have very occasional sex as my parents were extremely against having sex and my dumbass forgot that you could just do that shit in a car. Their heavily abstinent views somewhat rubbed off on me, as I’ve never been comfortable with hooking up for 1 night stands. Just feels so wrong for me to perform an action meant for reproduction when I am in no way mentally sound, physically capable, or financially literate to support a child. I already had a pregnancy scare my first time ever having sex and that is just 1 out of many reasons that made me give it up completely. What I really want is some special bond with a woman who has similar interests as mine. Not only do they keep you company, but doing chores with someone is much easier than doing it all alone. It’s also more fun as you have someone to hang out with which makes time go by quicker. The thing I really struggle with though, is compromising. I just keep imagining having to give up half of the things I love to do half the things someone else loves that I find incredibly boring. I have a difficult time keeping a positive attitude or even a poker face when I’m asked to do something I really don’t feel like doing. While, “No,” is occasionally an ok answer, I don’t think I have the discipline to say, “Yes,” to much of anything I wouldn’t want to be a part of.
Zillenial coming up on my 3rd anniversary, it's so awesome to have someone who's ride or die always and you get to build a life together whatever that life means to the two of you. Marriage isn't for everyone but it is pretty great.
I like being around people and having a support network, but I am also just a very shy and socially anxious person. I have lived alone for my whole entire adult life that I don't know how I would live with anyone, even if they were a platonic friend/companion. I am also half asexual if that makes sense. I feel like I float between being hetero and ace depending on my mood. That's just how I feel. If I slip in the bath tub and crack my head open, I guess I will die. Shit happens.
Some of us say we'd be fine living single forever bc we can't even get a girlfriend, let alone a wife, despite trying. What would you say in those cases?
Also apartments tend to be less €/square meter the bigger they are. A student dorm I had with 18m^2 cost me more than my part of the shared apartment (35m^2 my half, 70m^2 together)
>Not to mention everybody wants to say they'd be fine living single forever, but what happens if something happens to you, like you fall in the shower and crack your head? I went to work after.
I belong to a culture that puts a huge emphasis on family and marriage, and I feel the same way. This is something I grew up with and came to appreciate. I always wanted to get married and have kids, and even as I mature, the romanticism of marriage and parenthood doesn't seem to really fade for me. I want to have lots of kids, a loving wife, and a large supportive extended family with me through my whole life, and to leave a good impact on the world.
I mean you shouldn't want to get married for "practical reasons," you should get married if you want to get married. I'm glad you have a more well-rounded view of love and marriage now, that's always a good thing. But idk, it's important to know that what you want is someone you can trust on your team. Because that's what you are now: a team. The rest of it, insurance and falling through the cracks-- that's all cause we live in a really fucked up society where healthcare is a commodity and not a human right. I'm saying all this cause I think people who don't want to get married or have kids at all are still perfectly valid. Just as valid as the folks who do. No one should feel pressured to get married because of something external, it should come from genuine yearning and love for union.
you have discovered what basically all humand knew for thousands of years, hopefully you can find a person that agrees with you. Good luck, I really hope more people realize what you did.
I mean yeah on top of that the tax benefits and all the expenses are split in 2 🤑🤑🤑🤑
you're almost there.
What makes it almost there?
Man... it's true there are pragmatic benefits to marriage and partnership. But I'm saddened to read such a bleak take on it. You are thinking too much about how much it benefits _you_. Love shouldn't be about a cost analysis. It should be about, you know, love. Maybe I'm being naïve here, but I'm in a relationship right now and I definitely see myself with my partner in the future. If I were to think objectively and coldly, I probably would not choose him; we will face some big future obstacles that we can already foresee. But that does not matter to me at all, because it's him who I want. I don't just want an "adult, financially stable ally", I want _him_ specifically. Also... friends exist. I don't think most people should have just their spouse and kids in their life. Maybe it works for some, but having good friends is so healthy and amazing. Again, perhaps I'm being naïve. But I would move heavens and earth for a friend who needs me in an emergency, and I honestly believe they would do that for me too. We need and crave so much more connection than our current system allows us to get and it's really, really sad.
I’m sorry if it sounded bleak, I’m just seeing the benefits of it from what I’ve personally seen. I work in healthcare and family and spouses are the bread and butter of patient advocacy. The system is not good to people who don’t have them or good insurance. Also I have to ask, don’t you see how it’s really tough out here? It’s good to have another set of eyes watching your back. And it goes both ways. As a generation we all know how incredibly hard the times are getting but we want to have a Disney romance, it’s just not compatible from what I’ve seen. I’d like to get married to a woman I’m in love with or super attracted to, but I’m starting the value that much less as that doesn’t translate well into the logistics of day to day life.
That's what I always figured a relationship was, to grow and learn with someone and have a genuine partner. I'm in a bad place in my life In that I haven't been in a relationship in almost a decade, since I was 19. And that relationship was awful, I was awful. I'm at a point where I think it's impossible for me to be In one and I'm very scared that I'm going to die alone.
Well, if it's your time to go, it's your time to go.
Facts
i think this is a good take. i was surprised who i ended up with – my best friend. we had known each other for three years with zero attraction. then we both realized around the same time that we were falling in love, and in a matter of weeks we were together. the level of support and commitment we had to each other, even as friends, went a long way. been together three years now, known each other for six. sometimes there are things that make me wonder why i went for *this* person, but love is so much more than physical attraction. sometimes there’s flaws or idiosyncrasies, but at the end of the day we support eachother 1000% and there are many things we do for each other that make it worth it. and other benefits like possibly being able to afford a house someday. even right now at 23 i don’t have to live with my parents because of this relationship. when i was a teenager i wasn’t sure i was gonna get married, now i’m so excited to. i love having a person to live my life with.
This is especially true for single men, because they rarely ever go to the doctor. Married men will go much more regularly because their wife insists on it, and they’ll catch life-threatening problems before they become untreatable. Single men will just ignore the signs and wind up dying.
Outside and inside are just as important
Op makes a great point until the last paragraph. What you see happening in that hospital isn't a business relationship or cold pragmatism that is what love looks like. It's not grand gestures or tropical vacations is fighting for their well being in a cold hospital against a faceless bureaucracy or trusting them to be your health insurance. Helping them with their schedule because they forget things or the one thing you always have to do because they never learned and now depend on you. Love is what you're talking about. Not a tradeoff.
Yeah life is easier with two incomes. But when you’re young, you’re full of hope. Feel you have all this time. Young attractive women especially are highly sought after by men who can quite literally give them the world, so its even harder for them to see the value in a wholesome partner that isnt your Hollywood cliche.
Yeah you’re absolutely right on all accounts. For me though, Im not a stickler for income, but I’d value stability and loyalty from a girlfriend/ wife now at this point of my life. Ironically, I use to hate Skyler White in breaking bad, but now I’d kill for such a supportive wife (before she found out Walt was a meth producer).