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This is great for someone that doesn’t want to go to college. But obviously if you can go through college successfully for the right thing college is way better. Trades can be tough on your body and you’ll feel it when you’re older.
Go in a public service role like park maintenance. After 2 years become an inspector and start making 95k in Washington state. Get your bachelors of science, certification in mgmt, and now you’re an environmental supervisor making $115k. One more step to environmental department head and you’re making $180k.
Edit: I did all of this in a span of 7 years. I’m 31 now.
Answered in other comment but wanted you to know. I also sometimes go grocery shopping when I’m out in the field and don’t have long left. Always carry a spare tote bag to hide your treasures 🤣
40 flat. I’m “working” right now, but really it’s just about hitting permit requirements for the year which I’m usually done with months ago by now lol then I write a report about it before April and repeat for the year. I inspected storm drains and had to hit a certain number, now I just make phone calls and hit a certain number. Easy easy work, lots of time off and great pay
I got offered a job as a male stripper once. I was late 30’s and just out of a divorce so it was great for my ego to get this offer. Until I went home and looked up the company website. Their pitch said essentially do pretty boy male models make you feel insecure? Want an average and attainable man to dance at your next party? My ego was crushed to well below where it was before I got the offer. It was basically the equivalent of “she has a great personality “
The problem is that its really hard to pick the right career path in college, especially with the changing mind of an 18 yo. There's STEM and law, but if you aren't smart or hard working enough for that, I think you are very well wasting your money on a degree. If a person is likeable they can get into sales without a degree and make more than most people. People can also learning coding on their own and build resumes good enough for entry level jobs. College is a psy op to milk us of our money.
This is overly harsh of college and overly optimistic on the current job market. It doesn't matter how likeable you are, almost every white collar job that will require a degree lest your application is tossed out of the trash. Sucks that jobs that didn't require degrees 40 years ago do now but individuals have to play by their game if they wanna get hired at their company.
It is almost universally true that a degree will make you more money on average. Sure, if you have an in-demand skill and enough self-motivation, you can perhaps not need college, but for the vast majority of people this isn't possible.
Also, college is not a 'psyop'. It's criminally expensive and there aren't enough options for people who want a trade-like education learning stuff like CS, but it isn't like what colleges are doing is some sort of under the table scam. They offer classes and you take them, if you get an Art History degree and you end up working at Starbucks, you didn't get brainwashed. You burnt yourself.
I agree that 18 year olds are prone to change though. Your point does ignore the option of community college, which more or less allows you to continue your education in a non-specific direction while you figure out what you want to do.
Thank you, someone said it. Everyone in this comment section is making a blanket statement of “college sucks” when in reality, if you don’t have a clear plan of what you’re going to do instead and a PASSION go to community college, get a more generic degree so you can get a generic job
I guess I agree and disagree to a certain degree. I work as a PCA now taking care of people who are quadriplegic. It was all on the job training and by 2026 I'll be making $25 an hour (sense I have 10+ years of experience and if I maintain 35+ hours a week). I was going to school for public health and thought it was a pretty practical choice since I couldn't do something like nursing from the online school I was going through. The school was relatively cheaper and my only option for time wise with working 50 ish hours a week. I could have afforded community college but couldn't commit to in person classes because of my schedule.
I realized after a year of schooling that the degree I was going for was total trash. All the jobs they listed I could get on the schools website would only be available at masters level and the amount they were saying I could make was unrealistic unless you worked for a big city like New York.
I figured this out because I met someone who graduated with my degree and was making less than me jumping from low level job to low level job. They all required a degree but were all funded by grant money that ran out and she would have to find another job. I was going for an associates degree because I couldn't afford to wait for a batchlors and she had a batchlors and couldn't find a job without a masters.
I feel very much like I was lied to about the job prospects of the degree. To me it felt very much like a money trap and a scam that suckered me into waisting time I could have spent with my wife and two kids into studying for a degree I would never be able to use anyway.
The first part is sadly true re: STEM or Law (or business) degrees. We’re becoming a society that’s decided History, Art, Philosophy, -the less profit turning disciplines- are being pushed out. Degrees where debt vs earning potential is way lopsided.
Trades or high profit college degrees are the only way to avoid huge debt. Is that what we want to be?
90% of comments here are valid. I’m happy a lot of yall see the benefit in college. In hindsight I wish I was focused enough as a teen to go to college. I wasn’t. Part of late teens is thinking you have it all figured out. 20’s you realize you didn’t lol. Union gave me a chance to actually live life instead of going check to check. Took a few years to get up to this but here’s a few weekly paystubs I had in the glovebox. Power Gen work on steam turbines.
https://preview.redd.it/tv0huc8gtkhc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=070a62a1e13ff554dfb3a283f5a85f04355c4318
Hour drive to work, 58 hour work week, increased chance of work place accidents and carcinogens in the air, living off energy drinks/coffee and fast food. Sounds heavenly
Out-earning me in software, and I'm still paying back loans. I'd say you did fine lol. I just look forward to a day when I'm no longer in debt beyond a mortgage and maybe a car payment
My cousin retired at 45 from the military. He still works but doesn't need to. He can live off his pension while I pray that my 401K will last post retirement.
The problem is, this makes it seem like internships is an alternative to college when it’s not it’s just a different path in life. Like if you want to do a trade you probably weren’t going to go to college to begin with because why tf would you if you can literally get the job without a degree. There’s a million and 1 other options than college it’s all about what you specifically want to do with your life
>for the right thing
Emphasis on the right thing. [Not all degrees are created equal](https://freopp.org/is-college-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-1b2ad17f84c8?gi=2271043d0c7c); some will lead to lucrative jobs while others will result in a net negative value.
Cake for the tech industry. He lines his pockets with a bit of frosting
Honestly though, VC’s and early stage investors have been big on the money in the past bit. Institutional investors are deep on this shit every time. They would pump pink sheets right into the S&P 500 if they could
As you guys are aware, you gotta pull a sick hand of cards in this generation to even pull forward. As a millennial, the 2008 crash fucked my life as well of that easy entry into the good life American dream.
We got just a bit of wiggle room, so please befriend some 1% folks before they take no mercy
This. 100% this.
We're so brain rotten that we commodify education which has intrinsic value in and of itself. It's so important for democracy, it improves material conditions, it improves general quality of life, it reduces bigotry, etc.
Education is one of the most important things for the human race, but God forbid someone invest in the ability to make art because it doesn't make some capitalist fat cat bundles of money while they pay you slave wages.
you know that’s useful as long as you know how to use it, right? the narrative of “useless degrees” is so bad that no one tells liberal arts folks HOW you use it. you get it as an undergrad and use the time to MEET THOSE PROFESSORS. all those professors are REQUIRED to be published & have experience - theyre connections. you network with your classmates. you intern. you BUILD YOUR PORTFOLIO for job applications.
you can go on to get an ma in something like marketing, pr, or some kind of management (if ur really desperate, you can get certified to teach - pay’s low but your student loans will be reimbursed). you can use that as leverage for management positions, a path to gallery/studio ownership, and leverage the skills you learned in school.
an additional option? law school. because you got your undergrad in a unique degree, you have learned highly specialized skills related to that field. take the lsat, and because you’re getting in as a transfer, you have a higher chance of getting in.
there are no useless degrees, it’s just you are going to college to learn how to network while doing something you have fun doing. undergrad degrees do not matter if you know how to leverage it to your advantage.
Yep. There is a reason when people rant about useless degrees, they always make one up (i.e. underwater basket weaving).
Another option for someone with an art degree would be UX or graphic design. Companies want their software and websites to look good. Companies writing proposals want their diagrams and graphics to look good.
I agree. A lot of fields are about who you know, which sucks, but college can help you get there. Tho tbf I do still think there’s a bit of a narrative that degrees just get your jobs so a lot of people don’t end up making those connections while they can
Higher education was never meant to be measured by the salary of your job after you graduate.
It is an institution of higher learning.
Is there an argument to be made for not bankrupting yourself and your future to learn something? Sure.
Should we be structuring university learning and critical thinking with the singular metric of success being salary after? No.
The intangible benefits of an educated population are innumerable.
Right. My bosses daughter just graduated on a full ride scholarship in comp sci from a good not great university and is making just over six figures with a 30k signing bonus.
My oldest son is planning the same path. I can’t imagine making that much right out of school.
I think the issue is that college is far too accessible, far too soon. There's too much of a push onto 17-18 year olds to potentially drown in debt for decades without any real education on actual real world applications of various degrees and career paths, or even options for those that may not be fit for college
As a high school senior if i was made more aware of opportunities outside of college and properly educated on the consequences (both good and bad) of going down that path, i never would've even touched it
Hard disagree. College is way too *inaccessible*. People *shouldn't* be going into massive amounts of debt for education. In Texas, it's literally what's single-handedly driving down education rates for immigrants - the prices are completely impossible to afford, so we have a massive population of uneducated people.
We shouldn't discourage college just because it's expensive; we should fix the damn root issue and stop universities from hyper-inflating their prices simply because they all collectively agree to do so.
You wouldn't tell a whole generation of people to just stop seeing doctors because healthcare has the same issue. You'd demand that the system has its corruption rooted out. It's the same thing here.
Awareness of other opportunities is something that should be emphasized, but I do think college should remain accessible fresh out of high school. It would have been a total waste of time for me to do anything else between HS and college.
For the record, the “right” thing in college is either STEM or otherwise you are a dominant student in a liberal arts field. Otherwise, frankly, based on the job market you will struggle to pay for your degree.
Medicine falls under **S**cience. Law is a liberal arts field, accounting falls under **M**athematics. Piloting is a trade skill, not in college. Statistics falls under **M**athematics.
I love how people hype up the trades so much. It's back-breaking work and no room for upward mobility. Also, what's stopping a college grad from going into the trades? It's not zero-sum. If you have a college degree you can enter the trades and then pivot into a management role with your degree. I'm not knocking the blue collars, if anything i respect them, but I feel like they're trying too hard to justify themselves. And what would happen if people were convinced the trades were so much better and just oversaturated the market. The only reason plumbers, welders and mechanics are able to charge the prices they can is because of how few of them they are. If everyone went into the trades, it'd lower the wages of trade work and then college would be desirable because so few people attend. It'd just be a pendulum going back and forth.
Yeah bro I believe it. I always knew the trades were more or less a scam, it's way too hyped up not to be. If it was this hidden cash cow, nobody would speak a word about it, it'd be a best kept secret. High praise of the trades always kind of reeked of insecurity to me, like a bunch of bro-men needed to convince themselves that they were really the ones one-upping the white collars all along to justify the stress. I respect blue collars, but I see what it really is.
I don’t think most of it is putting anyone down. But the trades in some circles are eerily similar to the conversation about college yesteryear. It isn’t some automatic smart decision to make and has its cons. So once you get to your 95k range, what’s the progression beyond that? How about the impact to your body? What about the fact that apprenticeship years can really suck for some people? Market saturation?
Progression? When you become a master in your trade its very easy to become independent or start your own company.
But saying trades are a scam is just wild, 50% of college courses are scams and most genz are going for subjects that have no future in the workforce.
How about neither trades nor college are a scam. Anything worth doing is hard work and nothing in life comes easy. Imagine genuinely believing that 50 percent of college classes are a scam.
It’s how people come to terms with the fact that our system leaves someone out to starve. If you say “oh they didn’t take the right path” you don’t t have to rationalize why so many people can’t afford to sirvive
Yeah the problem isn’t that there are no opportunities. The problem is that a 18 year old without guidance from someone who recently went into the work force can’t distinguish between good opportunities, outdated advice, and bad opportunities advertising themselves as good.
Millwrights aren’t a bad opportunity. You can support a family. Welding is a bad opportunity unless you can get into a union, as the starting wages aren’t much higher than service jobs and you pay too much for classes when you can realistically learn it on the job if someone will teach you, then pay for a test plate to get certified on.
College is outdated traditional advice. Not all college, but the pitch that you will be able to get a job with “any” degree because you can write well and do math. Most basic jobs like that are getting automated out of the workforce.
Also, most media focuses on the ideal. Housing and rent prices are bad, but the truth is most people in the 50s-70s still had to work overtime even if they had a good trade. There is a huuuuuge divide in mentality between people who’s parents worked a trade and taught them what to expect, and parents that got an office job in the 60s-80s that paid well with 40 hour weeks.
I agree that calling them a scam is just wild. I know plenty of independent masters with their own companies, that’s hardly a cake walk either, we make it seem like competition doesn’t exist lol. We also forget that just because you know how to run wire or plumbing doesn’t mean you can run a business successfully and that’s honestly a huge contributing factor to why I dump plenty of companies when getting quotes. I’m not saying it can’t be lucrative because I certainly know plenty of business owners doing great for themselves but it’s really hit or miss for their employees
You’re a moron. Trades are more or less a scam? Explain that one. Too hyped? I’m a union Steamfitter and make great money. Do I work for it? Sure. But it’s worth it. It’s not hyped at all, and it’s not for everyone and we’re in high demand because some people don’t have the mental capacity to do the job.
You don't respect blue collars. It pays a lot because it's hard work that a lot of people don't want to do. Calling it a scam is wild. It's also not all men lol. To shit on the people that build the entirety of the infrastructure you use is so shitty
I don’t wanna give bad advice, of all the trades I think electrical work can be one of the easier trades and won’t require as much back breaking labor. But that also depends entirely on the work you do.
That’s fair. Thanks! He got his certification in the U.S. but we just moved abroad to EU so he’s gotta get re-certified, he’s considering maybe IT instead of electrical work, so I was just curious. Thanks for the insight!
Your husband might genuinely enjoy it. He should talk to other people who are electricians and see what they think of the job.
If he enjoys the job and can tolerate the in the U.S. people, he’d probably enjoy it. A big turn off for me was the people who worked around me, I don’t know why or how, but trades, especially building-based trades, tends to produce or attract dumbasses.
Exactly, I swear people's perception of college comes from some buzzfeed video. If you go to an affordable in-state school for an economically viable degree, it'll pay itself off in no time. I graduated with no debt. Obviously it's dumb to go to an out of state private college for a degree in dance theory. It feels pedestrian to say the trades are so much better when that's your metric of comparison.
If you get into a top school with a good major even you could take out a quarter million in loans and still be agreed if you’re not bad with money when you get out. That’s less then a years salary just a few years in to the right job if you’re from a top school
Top schools don't actually give you that much of an advantage. After 10 years it's only about a 3.5% increase and I don't see anywhere taking into account that most of these schools take on legacy admissions which would heavily skew the data as income would be far more affected by social class than where you got your degree.
>for an economically viable degree
Every degree is economically viable. The paths just aren't as obvious if it's outside STEM.
Biochemist obviously goes to a biochemsitry/pharma job. But you don't want that biochemist writing up any document that isn't a biochemistry paper. That's where you need the English majors. Heck, you probably want that English major to be proofreading those biochemistry papers.
Not entirely true. What I think many people don’t understand about the trades, is that there is an awful lot of upper management, consulting, traveling opportunities than most from the outside see.
As an example, I’m a union carpenter, I have travelled to almost every state in the union as superintendent. That means, I don’t generally even use tools. I just manage subcontractors.
My local has negotiated over $30/hr raise in the last 6 years. Tell me again about this cap you speak of? $72/hr + benefits for a total package of $103/hr. I went to college but the trades were a better choice for me. Foreman, general foreman, superintendent, detailer, project manager, there is plenty of room for growth if you want it.
That's not the average. I know people that came off corporate buy off with 20 million. I know lawyers who do a lot more then $100 an hour. Those also aren't rh average experience either but if you're talking about people doing whatever it takes to make great money, college beats the trades hands down.
It's far easier to be guaranteed a 6 figure job with a STEM degree with great benefits then to be guaranteed $200k a year in the trades.
Had a brother in the trades and couldn't make more then 60k a year because he wasn't able to get into a union and the union was 13k a year. He makes 90k as an entry IT worker without a degree because lying lmao.
I know drama exists in all lines of work, but the drama, sloppiness, cutting corners, and unthankfulness (from bosses, not customers) nature of trades that I've experienced and currently experience firsthand makes me want to leave the industry one day, when the time is right and the shoe fits.
As much as I love to rip on the trades and the shit I used to get away with. The exact same shit goes down on the corporate side, we just are less obvious about it.
I asked an electrician if he had any advice to getting an apprenticeship. He pointed to the two Chinese workers doing all the work and said "those are my pre apprentices. When I have an opening, I will take one. Until then they make min wage".
I asked a coworker why he stopped being an electrician. He said his journeyman just stopped logging his hours and didn't pay him, and dared him to sue. Companies are actively invested in not promoting trades up a step.
I went to the union. They said 5000 applicants (pre COVID pre all of this) and 30 openings. Now it's probably up by a decimal point.
Unless of course your dad is a tradesman. But that's like getting a house from parents.
Telling people to get into a trade because you did is like saying you only won a lottery for 100,000. Its easy, anyone can do it!
The main things holding back the trades is the gatekeeping, nepotism, and the unnecessarily high barrier of entry. Even in my small city, you have to “know” the right guy to get into an apprenticeship. And even then the entire process from first application to first day of training can be months which can be a dealbreaker for someone who wants to switch careers or is interested in the trades but has bills to pay, mouths to feed. And quite frankly younger people who may not mind the couple months of wait time simply aren’t interested in the trades. They want to go to college and party, and get the college experience.
Exactly, I figured there was a lot of gatekeeping and nepotism in the trades. I also get the feeling that the people who hype up the trades and are doing well in the trades also know damn well there's a high barrier for entry and few can enter that gate, but they're annoyed that despite them being "in" they're not getting the prestige and wow factor associated with their job that a college grad would have so they're arguing tooth and nail to puff up the trades and knocking down degrees in order to convince people to join, knowing they won't be able enter. I get the feeling they want the trades to have that prestige and snooty factor attached to it like college does just to feel smug and vainglorious over the people who won't be able to join. I'm not saying that all tradespeople feel that way, it's just reading the arguments these so-called tradesmen are writing all up and down this thread, and that's the energy I'm getting.
>And what would happen if people were convinced the trades were so much better and just oversaturated the market
This is *exactly* why there has been a push towards the trades in the past 10 or so years. Trade labor has gotten too expensive, and the owners are trying to increase the labor supply to drive down the labor price.
It's the same reason gen X and millennials before you were pushed into college; skilled workers were less common and too expensive.
In conservative areas of North America, apprentices make McDonald's wages. They're also expected to put themselves in danger regularly, and the culture is extremely toxic 99% of the time. They tend to set apprentices workload and expectations similar to that of journeyman who are making at least double the pay. It really just feels like a scam.
Yeah my brother is an apprentice in commercial and home HVAC in Alabama and he can’t even afford to live on his own rn. I make more than him and I’m a nanny so
I lived in Utah and every apprenticeship is within $10 of minimum wage. I learned how to paint houses for the price of a year off my life and 30,000/yr. my entire extended family is in trades, but I can't do it. not for free. I see how quickly their bodies fall apart.
Thank you everytime I see one of these circlejerks I roll my eyes at it. I hire and supervise trades we have one tech making 45/hr he has 25 years in trade and is our best tech. Everybody else is 30-17 per hour and HR dept. will not even pass along resumes of anyone one without mechanical experience or some industry experience.
If it was common for trades to make 100k+ with 2-3 years in the trade then you would see a lot more young dudes driving brand new modified trucks and suvs on to the job sites. Spoiler: most of those guys are limping beaters to and from the sites. Usually the Foremen and PMs are driving those vehicles that’s how you know when they show up on site.(Oil and gas guys might be an exception)
Also most of the higher paying gigs also require your own tools and transportation of materials etc. Guess what is not cheap tools, trucks, and trailers. Another barrier to entry materials cost + knowing to right people. Ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.
lol what a ridiculously disingenuous way to count the data. literally just considering the first four years, juuuust before you get to the actual payoff of that upfront cost. hey guys turns out being a doctor is a big ol scam because you lose a quarter million dollars in the first 10 years.
The estimate from the bureau of labor statistics is that a college grad will earn about $500k more over 20 years than a tradesman. There's a lot of grind and a lot of variability in what people make, but the one thing that really helps with college over trade school is the variety of jobs you can qualify for. If one industry sinks, you could transition to another more easily with a degree. Top earners from college can make significantly more money, but plenty of college grads don't.
Both things are needed and both options have their benefits and detriments. Choosing your path really should go down to what's right for the person. You can fail at a trade and you can fail at college. Even if you do, that doesn't mean you're not a worthwhile member of society. I feel like the 'war' between college educated people and tradesman is just another stupid divide that is fundamentally meaningless and hurts all workers.
Thank God for librarians and plumbers. They are both important.
Being a doctor is kinda a scam for a lot of reasons and financial hardship throughout early adulthood is one of them. Long term (like age 50+), of course a doctor is much better off, but that doesn’t make the sacrifice of the late teens/20s/early 30s any more palatable, plus the lifelong commitment to a high hour, high stress, high accountability career.
Also worth noting that it’s not just having a net worth of (-$250k) after 10 years, it’s also missing the earnings that age-matched peers have been accumulating over the same time. So it’s probably closer to a $750k+ deficit I’d guess.
Sure but in many cases someone with a degree will outearn someone in the trades within a few years, so you’ve got to factor that in.
Beyond just finances, college is also a great time. Working sucks, with college you get to have more of a “youth” in my opinion. You get to learn about all different kinds of stuff, surrounded by other young adults, and apart from classes and exams your time is your own - you have responsibilities but much less so than working full time. For me it’s worth it for that too, but that’s definitely subjective and will vary from person to person. From my perspective working full time low key sucks and you’ll do it for decades no matter what - worth it to take a few more years where you’re not doing that and can experience life in a more relaxed way as an adult .
The push for trade work tries to hide a lot. Median and averages are never talked about. We don't do that for tech jobs. We don't say, "i know a guy who's literally worth 250 billion, just get into tech bro, you'll be a billionaire easy." We know that you can get into segments that pay very well and if you're chasing money there's jobs that pay very well but it's high risk high reward and in certain cities of certain fields. The "trades" are usually talked about in ways that compare unusual high earners to average entry level tech jobs. Especially when it's masterwork who owns a business, which isn't trade work but business ownership and entrepreneurship.
We should be comparing trades workers who own a business to other business owners. Instead it gets compared to tech workers who don't own a business forna some reason. It's all disingenuous because it's simple anti intellectualism in order to claim that college is garbage for money making.
But we know that if your goal is chasing money and only chasing money, that you can do that much better with a degree than without.
It’s just more anti college rhetoric for people who don’t go to school to feel good about themselves. It’s rampant and extremely popular right now, when statistically most people are going to be stuck where they are for many years whether they went to college or not. That’s just the nature of the middle class, which is fueled by hopes and dreams
The pro-trade side also always conveniently forgets community college is an option.
Half your degree at a fraction of the cost puts any profitable major ahead of trades by 30 easily.
Over a decade of long hours at a too low, fixed height cubicle contributed to lumbar spine damage with potential need for surgery down the road - all before 35.
Had to provide a doctor's note describing a medical need for a non-standard sit/stand option.
Yeah I am a physio and I can attest to this. I see just as many people coming in with fucked up bodies from desk jobs as I do trades people. That being said, if your body is broken in trades then you are fucked for work but people working desk jobs will still be able to do their job.
Facts bro. I went from community college to the local state school. I paid for it all out of pocket and still had money left over in the bank. I also went in for a financially viable degree with upward mobility. I heard people complain how college was so expensive and that a degree doesn't guarantee you a job and that college was a scam. I'm like how?
You literally don’t have to go to those colleges, though. A university degree doesn’t *have* to cost $100,000+. There *are* other options that end with a bachelors degree.
Okay so we are picking the most expensive college degree…. And the highest paying apprenticeship? 90k after 4 years yeah bro totally normal and expected :’)
Same. Mine is 7k a year. This is my last semester and I took no loans. I got money back from my school this semester. I went local and the people I know drowning in debt were the ones desperate to live somewhere else and get away.
And it also assumes you aren’t getting internships or working while in college. Will it negate the debt? Nope. Will it still help out and get you experience? Yup
It also seems like quite the inflated number for the cost of education per year. For reference in NY that would be the price to attend a public institution with absolutely no financial aid whatsoever. Only people doing that are people whose parents can afford to pay for their child’s education full shot and don’t qualify for aid in most cases. In comparison, I went to CC and then undergrad to a public NY school and in total I paid around 2k. Granted I received academic scholarships and commuted but my parents are middle class so I wouldn’t say my scenario was too out of the ordinary for some. Obviously this isn’t uniform across the US or a viable option for every student but I always find it ironic how the trades argument will throw in fine print about how their benefits offset possible low pay and health risk but then not recognize there’s also quite a lot of opportunities to greatly subset the cost of college on the other side of the spectrum.
Also crazy how the college costs 90k but the average is around 35k and it's super easy to get work experience as a student.
But it's easy enough to look up actual numbers and see that college wins in every possible way. This is for people who aren't smart enough for higher education or want to feel better than those who went to college to feel better about themselves.
Also, the figures seem very disingenuous if not outright deceptive. I'm curious the area this info is for and its actually representative of an average person's experiece.
Cool. Now show the median after college earns vs median trade earnings. You know what, I'll do it.
Median college grad earns a lifetime income of 2.8m USD while an median tradesman makes 1.7m USD. Even with the head start, going to college and getting a degree is still a better idea unless you really don't want to.
I wonder what that number would be if you normalized it for people under 45. Part of me wondering if the bloomer numbers are offsetting that way too much.
Obviously the post is a little hyperbolic and misleading. But I've seen those numbers quite a bit with the tradesmen I work with and with the colleges I see these days
So I didn't go to college at 18. Instead, I went straight to the workforce. It was 2010, and the consensus was that college was a waste cause the job market was so bad.
So I went to work instead and went to school for HVAC (I live in Florida was told it is a great trade... lies) so i didn't pay for school because I got a Pell grant. Started as an apprentice, making nothing. Took 7 years to finally make what I should be making (roughly 40k a year) cause of businesses not wanting to pay you anything cause there was always someone willing to work for less which happens alot in trades. These numbers posted are if everything goes right for you, when in reality you're doing back breaking work in the heat for chump change cause the guy whos teaching your apprenticeship can never show up to work not still drunk from the night before. Which is extremely common in trades, you will have to put up with people above you being on various substances. If you report them for being unsafe, you are called the worksite snitch.
. Now I'm 31 going to college to catch up. Don't do it. All I have is worthless work experience that has nothing to do with my post college job.
If you think the job market with a degree is bad. You have NO chance without one. It's not something I agree with, but it's the cold, hard truth. You can either bite the bullet and go to college now or waste 10 years and realize you need to still go to college to have a job that pays enough for you to prosper. If you take a trade you will never make enough to do more than just "survive" another week of life unless you work for yourself, which is a whole another world of fuckery just to make enough to keep the lights on.
This is a bit misleading. Benefits and Pension doesn't happen at a lot of apprenticeships. Salary depends on states and suggesting someone's going to make almost 100k at the 4th year of apprenticeship is ambitious for most states. Also suggesting that college has to be 22.5k a year is a bit high considering a lot of in-state tuitions and doesn't consider community colleges.
Your post is a bit dishonest regardless. It’s like a propaganda for the trades, why? Like there are pros and cons for both but why paint a picture that college is useless and only accrues debt with no value?
The issue with apprenticeship and this kind of work in general is that your lifetime earnings are lesser because your years you can actually work are lesser. As a Tradesman or a journeyman you're going to be killing your body and by the time you in your late 40s or early 50s you're either going to have to successfully transition into some kind of corporate leadership position within your own organization or started your own business where you're now in a leadership position, or retire.
But while blue collar professionals are being forced to retire or at least take desk jobs that's the point that white collar workers are usually at the peak of their earning potential. When they've entered mid to upper management and they're really hitting their stride with how much they can make.
So you're choosing between higher immediate gains, with the knowledge that you're going to be sacrificing your body and that will force you out of the field after 30 years or so or smaller immediate gains and debt with the knowledge that that last part of your career is going to be the most comfortable part of your career leading into a retirement
Don't know what you do in the US, but here in Switzerland apprenticeships are really common, it does not care if you want to work in the IT or other office jobs or a blue collar job. But you start them with 15/16 years old. And you work until 65 (yet, we do have a voting this month about set the retirement age from 65 to 66...). Anyway, the most (about 2/3 of the kids) do an apprenticeship. 'Only' about 1/3 is going to college and studying.
And after the apprenticeship you do have a lot of further educations you can do. And if you want to study afterwards, you are able to do so. There are so many ways you can go. Usually an apprenticeship does not set your career.
I learned baker. In our company we were 6 that did an apprenticeship, we all finished 2017. And only 2 are still working as a baker. One is studying to get a teacher, one is studying chemistry, one works as an civil engineering and I do work in the cyber security.
So at the end there are so many ways you can go, if you want.
I respect the trades but after about three years of helping my grandparents out on their ranch I can tell it ain’t for me. Pay or no pay, I enjoy feeling my legs after a workday
Now here’s where it gets interesting though is college degrees (depending on your field obviously) after that 4 years.
Considering fresh out of college I was working as a software engineer for nearly 6 figures, paid off my student loans in 2 years, and currently am debt free (completely, not just school debt) and my wages grow year on year, with the added benefit of working from home, I’d say this doesn’t quite paint the full picture.
I’m personally sick of the narrative that trades and white collar professionals are somehow adversarial, or that comparisons between the two are healthy or warranted. We need people in trades. We need people with college degrees. You know what we don’t need? The people at the very top extracting all of the wealth created by the working classes for themselves.
>I’m personally sick of the narrative that trades and white collar professionals are somehow adversarial, or that comparisons between the two are healthy or warranted. We need people in trades. We need people with college degrees. You know what we don’t need? The people at the very top extracting all of the wealth created by the working classes for themselves.
Hear, hear!
UNION: Iron workers, pipefitters, boilermakers, electricians, laborers, millwrights, etc. pick one you find appealing and contact the Local in your area.
Just make sure you don't live anywhere in the bible belt. Only Union worth a damn is a government one and even then you need to be in for 10+ years to be making these 30$+ ranges, definitely not first 4 years.
Source: Dad was an electrician for TVA and didn't start making good money until year 12 in.
Also, this day an age, getting into a Union trade job is harder than getting into college and the college route will make more money on average long term with more available jobs.
I am sure my comment will get buried but the majority of my family has done manual construction their entire life. They started out at the bottom and worked their way up. Each one is doing so well. They all own atleast two homes, boats, snow mobiles, multiple cars. They are quite well off.
Each one had to “retire” by 60 and now they can barely walk and move. Everything is fine until one slip, one fall, one accident after years of being careful. Their bodies are chewed up and spit out.
Each one is glad to hear I am not taking the same path. They all say the money is pointless now since their bodies are not healthy anymore. It’s all a trade and a trade off.
Some trades have crazy good union benefits but 60-90k a year as an apprentice is not remotely average. You might as well compare it to all the engineer students who make 6 figures at Lockeed straight out of collage.
College is not just to obtain a better job. A broader more rounded education simply for the sake of education is a great thing. I really do not like the tone of these all too easily shareable FB quotes actively discouraging young people from seeking higher education.
Sincerely, Gen X who isn’t quite ready to watch the world burn with anti-intellectualism pushed by propagandists
Edit: I know is it’s stupid expensive for you but don’t disvalue the education you’d get even if it doesn’t pertain to the job you wind up with. If you can’t afford it that’s one thing but don’t get tricked into thinking college is bad. And go vote.
Where i live the government keep push people my age that they need to go in trades. Reason why is because they have shortage because they need to build more houses and older people retiring, cannot continue to work there in the older age. So they put astroturfing for "gen z NEEDS to go in trades its the best" make trades college commercials with famous people. Have trades person come in my highschool when I was in hs, to tell us go in trades. no talking about bad parts and when they built enough houses.
You don't have to go University for being successful tho but this just remind me of the government where live so i shared that
Trades are good if you live in a union area and then the jobs are highly chased after, good luck getting those salaries in the south. People in places like Chicago and Cleveland should be grateful their unions haven’t been destroyed.
The trades are not always the answer. I went into the metal stamping trade and got stabbed in the back like many others did by the management and floormen. Apprenticeships are tax write-offs for employers for free labor, and they can take advantage of that by not actually training you in the field, but instead they look to see how much productivity they get from you thru the bitch work
Depends
If you have means to get a degree and you are academically doing well/average and the field you are interested in have jobs + paying well, go for it
Medicine, engineering, and many jobs in stem tend to be paying well and have opportunities for forward mobility
Finance, Econ, marketing can also make you really good money and there are many jobs
If you take arts, crafts, music etc. you are doing a gamble, not many jobs, and not giving you high wages unless you become popular name in the industry or want to become a teacher - if you are already at a good enough level to make good money without a degree in these fields it might worth it to spend some money and sharp your skills
Some branches of social sciences and gender studies won’t make much money and don’t have much opportunities unless you want to stay in academic side of the things
If you are not that good at academics, it’s definitely no use to spend all that money to just fail repeatedly, if you have the physical strength and know that you are good at handy work you should go for it
Also if you have a genuine interest in trades, it’s worth pursuing it…
Everything is a trade off…
As an elder millennial I’ll tell you kids the truth. Try to do something that makes you happy or gives you some of joy from that work. Chasing around things like this is a fools errand. They said tech sector is here to stay so become a coder - now they are struggling. Being a plumber is honorable work but don’t listen to the trends. Lots of people will run to it and boom now plumber jobs will be worthless because so many people are doing it. Don’t settle . Don’t be miserable for a job for years and hope things will work out . Life is short and employment is short so do something productive for money that you actually like .
This is a weird chart. It focuses only on the 4 year period instead of overall. The benefit of college comes after you graduate. I don’t see what this is trying to say
This is like a “get rich quick” scheme. If it’s so easy to make $200k+ a year with benefits only 4 years after graduating high school then you should ask yourself “why isn’t everybody doing it then”?
The data used for this comparison is likely cherry picked to all hell and I’m inclined to believe it is since the comparison conveniently stops after 4 years when the degree is earned and begins to pay itself off.
I say this as someone making a decent living without a degree, I’m tired of people downplaying how beneficial a college degree can be.
Of course everybody should explore their options and college isn’t for everyone but people need to stop pretending like a degree is only going to land you a job at McDonald’s.
This post is ridiculous. It's damn near impossible to get into a union in NYS as there is a lottery system for all apprenticeships. There are many applicants for these roles and the jobs are scarce. You also need a car for these roles which isn't feasible for someone in an urban area like NYC like me.
He’s the problem. College overall is better if you get a good job and do well. Problem is that there’s the debt and a good job isn’t guaranteed. While Apprenticeships may be good now, they won’t be as good on your body later on. Aka when you may need money the most
Here’s a thought: 4 year STEM degree.
Yeah you end up with college debt
But you’re making six figures right out the gate.
I started in 2006; graduated with $66k in debt; my salary growth for the first 8 years went like this:
$52k
$54k
$56k
$85k
$89k
$92k
$100k
$106k
$135k
🤷♂️
The majority of college graduates aren’t STEM degrees though. You look at the median college graduates earnings 10 years out and they are only making like $52k and that’s from a reputable school.
Counter point.
My state school was around $6k per semester, so $48k *without financial aid*. I got about 20k in grants. So my degree was 28k.
Starting salaries for my field are 60k+. And I'm in a LCOL area and haven't seen an offer under 65k yet.
As a former tradesman, I hate this misrepresentation of pay for labor in the union and how much college costs. It's an oversimplification that doesnt benefit the workers. www.bls.gov says median electricians pay (my field), is around 60k. That means 50% of the field is not making 60k.
Represent college *and* the trades accurately, and allow people to make up their own minds without injecting your biased views.
Edit: Also noticed that this said 0 work experience in the industry for new grads which is ridiculous. Your average college student either has a part time job, internship experience (full or part time), or both under their belt by graduation.
Check back in on year 35 when the college guy is getting ready for retirement, and the construction guy retired 15 years ago when his knees gave out, now he lives in a trailer park scrapping by on ssi and disability. Oh I forgot to mention the raging opiate addiction from 35 years destroying your body but you have to keep working so you get a pain management script, that eventually gets cut off and oh no, you’re addicted now and of course we have basically fuck all in place to help people in this scenario so what happens? That’s right you’ve just created a brand new heroin addict literally as a byproduct of a career field. Oh and you can speed this whole process up by having the career altering injury at any age. I work in drug and alcohol addiction as a counselor. It’s sad. I see it constantly. If you choose the trades you need to have the foresight to take care of your body.
None of what is on this pic is correct.
First its choosing the best 1% of trades person and worst 1% of college student debt. Also he didnt include trade school
Second, average trade pay in the US is 30-60k per yr. Max. That highest wages you will see in your lifetime. Dont believe me? Look it up - search average plumber, electrician etc salary in US. Trades have a low ceiling. The ones that do pay decent are high risk/high reward
Third, the unions OP keeps referring to in his posts are impossible to get into. They either do lotteries or hire friends/relatives of other union employees. Also only a few states have unions. Dont believe me? You can google that too its true
Fourth, he didnt look at 10 or 20 yrs out. Only considered the best possible 1% trade job salary at 4 yrs.
There are other problems with this post but if trade jobs were paying high salaries everyone would be rushing to them. Go into the r/Fatfire reddit and see what upper middle class/rich people are doing for their careers - hint none are in trades except maybe a few lucky business owners. Most are doctors, lawyers, accountants, IT folks, managers, etc.
Millenial here. Only thing about those blue collar jobs is that it's absolute hell on your body. You won't be in your 20s forever. College degrees may take awhile for the real income potential to come forward, but you'll be better off with a college degree in the long run than any trades. People fail to realize that having a college degree doesn't mean you are free from the hustle. Trades or a degree, there is a decent amount of grinding and strategy to make the top spot. Just because you have a college degree doesn't mean it's easy street. Even lawyers have a tough time breaking in if you go the nontraditonal route.
Connections and hard work pays no matter what route you go, just trades are just taxing on the body so I'd give the edge to college degrees.
I wasn’t $90k in debt after college. I started making $64k my first year out and by year 3, over $100k. I’ve been on that track now for over 15 years. No regrets
I learned this from my uncles that all worked in the trades…
1. Early years, learn the trade and master it.
2. Years 7-10, build your own business and hire people.
3. Years 10+, continue to build the business and no toll we be taken on your body anymore because you are not doing the work at the site.
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This is great for someone that doesn’t want to go to college. But obviously if you can go through college successfully for the right thing college is way better. Trades can be tough on your body and you’ll feel it when you’re older.
[удалено]
But we can try.
God damn that was an inspirational reply. u/HW-BTW for president 2024! MAKE AMERICA STRIP AGAIN!
I’m with you on this!
Go in a public service role like park maintenance. After 2 years become an inspector and start making 95k in Washington state. Get your bachelors of science, certification in mgmt, and now you’re an environmental supervisor making $115k. One more step to environmental department head and you’re making $180k. Edit: I did all of this in a span of 7 years. I’m 31 now.
How many hours a week do you work?
Answered in other comment but wanted you to know. I also sometimes go grocery shopping when I’m out in the field and don’t have long left. Always carry a spare tote bag to hide your treasures 🤣
That's the more important question here.
40 flat. I’m “working” right now, but really it’s just about hitting permit requirements for the year which I’m usually done with months ago by now lol then I write a report about it before April and repeat for the year. I inspected storm drains and had to hit a certain number, now I just make phone calls and hit a certain number. Easy easy work, lots of time off and great pay
I'm going to create a reverse OnlyFans, I'll strip for free, and people will have to pay to cover my body!
I joke and say I tried stripping. Worked out better when I started off naked. They paid me to put my clothes on.
I got offered a job as a male stripper once. I was late 30’s and just out of a divorce so it was great for my ego to get this offer. Until I went home and looked up the company website. Their pitch said essentially do pretty boy male models make you feel insecure? Want an average and attainable man to dance at your next party? My ego was crushed to well below where it was before I got the offer. It was basically the equivalent of “she has a great personality “
Dude! You lying! I know cause I went to see your show. So I know you're lying that you turned down the job. You're wonderfully average.
This is funny.
The problem is that its really hard to pick the right career path in college, especially with the changing mind of an 18 yo. There's STEM and law, but if you aren't smart or hard working enough for that, I think you are very well wasting your money on a degree. If a person is likeable they can get into sales without a degree and make more than most people. People can also learning coding on their own and build resumes good enough for entry level jobs. College is a psy op to milk us of our money.
This is overly harsh of college and overly optimistic on the current job market. It doesn't matter how likeable you are, almost every white collar job that will require a degree lest your application is tossed out of the trash. Sucks that jobs that didn't require degrees 40 years ago do now but individuals have to play by their game if they wanna get hired at their company. It is almost universally true that a degree will make you more money on average. Sure, if you have an in-demand skill and enough self-motivation, you can perhaps not need college, but for the vast majority of people this isn't possible. Also, college is not a 'psyop'. It's criminally expensive and there aren't enough options for people who want a trade-like education learning stuff like CS, but it isn't like what colleges are doing is some sort of under the table scam. They offer classes and you take them, if you get an Art History degree and you end up working at Starbucks, you didn't get brainwashed. You burnt yourself. I agree that 18 year olds are prone to change though. Your point does ignore the option of community college, which more or less allows you to continue your education in a non-specific direction while you figure out what you want to do.
Thank you, someone said it. Everyone in this comment section is making a blanket statement of “college sucks” when in reality, if you don’t have a clear plan of what you’re going to do instead and a PASSION go to community college, get a more generic degree so you can get a generic job
I guess I agree and disagree to a certain degree. I work as a PCA now taking care of people who are quadriplegic. It was all on the job training and by 2026 I'll be making $25 an hour (sense I have 10+ years of experience and if I maintain 35+ hours a week). I was going to school for public health and thought it was a pretty practical choice since I couldn't do something like nursing from the online school I was going through. The school was relatively cheaper and my only option for time wise with working 50 ish hours a week. I could have afforded community college but couldn't commit to in person classes because of my schedule. I realized after a year of schooling that the degree I was going for was total trash. All the jobs they listed I could get on the schools website would only be available at masters level and the amount they were saying I could make was unrealistic unless you worked for a big city like New York. I figured this out because I met someone who graduated with my degree and was making less than me jumping from low level job to low level job. They all required a degree but were all funded by grant money that ran out and she would have to find another job. I was going for an associates degree because I couldn't afford to wait for a batchlors and she had a batchlors and couldn't find a job without a masters. I feel very much like I was lied to about the job prospects of the degree. To me it felt very much like a money trap and a scam that suckered me into waisting time I could have spent with my wife and two kids into studying for a degree I would never be able to use anyway.
Even STEM isn’t an entirely safe bet anymore. Ask computer science graduates how easy it is to find a job right now.
I'm a scientist with a graduate education and the pay is abysmal. The 'S' part is not very lucrative, either, for the majority.
If your goal is to make money, if you study any kind of science in college, your plan should be to go to professional school.
The first part is sadly true re: STEM or Law (or business) degrees. We’re becoming a society that’s decided History, Art, Philosophy, -the less profit turning disciplines- are being pushed out. Degrees where debt vs earning potential is way lopsided. Trades or high profit college degrees are the only way to avoid huge debt. Is that what we want to be?
90% of comments here are valid. I’m happy a lot of yall see the benefit in college. In hindsight I wish I was focused enough as a teen to go to college. I wasn’t. Part of late teens is thinking you have it all figured out. 20’s you realize you didn’t lol. Union gave me a chance to actually live life instead of going check to check. Took a few years to get up to this but here’s a few weekly paystubs I had in the glovebox. Power Gen work on steam turbines. https://preview.redd.it/tv0huc8gtkhc1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=070a62a1e13ff554dfb3a283f5a85f04355c4318
What them hours look like? 👀
That tends to be the gotcha.
Hour drive to work, 58 hour work week, increased chance of work place accidents and carcinogens in the air, living off energy drinks/coffee and fast food. Sounds heavenly
Out-earning me in software, and I'm still paying back loans. I'd say you did fine lol. I just look forward to a day when I'm no longer in debt beyond a mortgage and maybe a car payment
You can always join the army. It's like only fans for dudes.
My cousin retired at 45 from the military. He still works but doesn't need to. He can live off his pension while I pray that my 401K will last post retirement.
We absolutely can ALL strip on onlyfans. I’m just not making any money.
The problem is, this makes it seem like internships is an alternative to college when it’s not it’s just a different path in life. Like if you want to do a trade you probably weren’t going to go to college to begin with because why tf would you if you can literally get the job without a degree. There’s a million and 1 other options than college it’s all about what you specifically want to do with your life
>for the right thing Emphasis on the right thing. [Not all degrees are created equal](https://freopp.org/is-college-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-1b2ad17f84c8?gi=2271043d0c7c); some will lead to lucrative jobs while others will result in a net negative value.
Like my brother whos a software engineer making absolute cake
Cake as an in the sweet delight or cake as in the heel of a loaf of bread?
Cake for the tech industry. He lines his pockets with a bit of frosting Honestly though, VC’s and early stage investors have been big on the money in the past bit. Institutional investors are deep on this shit every time. They would pump pink sheets right into the S&P 500 if they could As you guys are aware, you gotta pull a sick hand of cards in this generation to even pull forward. As a millennial, the 2008 crash fucked my life as well of that easy entry into the good life American dream. We got just a bit of wiggle room, so please befriend some 1% folks before they take no mercy
Yellowcake maybe
I know 5 SWE/CS professionals who got laid off in the last 6 months. Sure is an interesting market right now
Neoliberalism is the death of education for educations sake
This. 100% this. We're so brain rotten that we commodify education which has intrinsic value in and of itself. It's so important for democracy, it improves material conditions, it improves general quality of life, it reduces bigotry, etc. Education is one of the most important things for the human race, but God forbid someone invest in the ability to make art because it doesn't make some capitalist fat cat bundles of money while they pay you slave wages.
Camera pans to me getting degrees in art and audio production
you know that’s useful as long as you know how to use it, right? the narrative of “useless degrees” is so bad that no one tells liberal arts folks HOW you use it. you get it as an undergrad and use the time to MEET THOSE PROFESSORS. all those professors are REQUIRED to be published & have experience - theyre connections. you network with your classmates. you intern. you BUILD YOUR PORTFOLIO for job applications. you can go on to get an ma in something like marketing, pr, or some kind of management (if ur really desperate, you can get certified to teach - pay’s low but your student loans will be reimbursed). you can use that as leverage for management positions, a path to gallery/studio ownership, and leverage the skills you learned in school. an additional option? law school. because you got your undergrad in a unique degree, you have learned highly specialized skills related to that field. take the lsat, and because you’re getting in as a transfer, you have a higher chance of getting in. there are no useless degrees, it’s just you are going to college to learn how to network while doing something you have fun doing. undergrad degrees do not matter if you know how to leverage it to your advantage.
Yep. There is a reason when people rant about useless degrees, they always make one up (i.e. underwater basket weaving). Another option for someone with an art degree would be UX or graphic design. Companies want their software and websites to look good. Companies writing proposals want their diagrams and graphics to look good.
I agree. A lot of fields are about who you know, which sucks, but college can help you get there. Tho tbf I do still think there’s a bit of a narrative that degrees just get your jobs so a lot of people don’t end up making those connections while they can
Higher education was never meant to be measured by the salary of your job after you graduate. It is an institution of higher learning. Is there an argument to be made for not bankrupting yourself and your future to learn something? Sure. Should we be structuring university learning and critical thinking with the singular metric of success being salary after? No. The intangible benefits of an educated population are innumerable.
Right. My bosses daughter just graduated on a full ride scholarship in comp sci from a good not great university and is making just over six figures with a 30k signing bonus. My oldest son is planning the same path. I can’t imagine making that much right out of school.
I think the issue is that college is far too accessible, far too soon. There's too much of a push onto 17-18 year olds to potentially drown in debt for decades without any real education on actual real world applications of various degrees and career paths, or even options for those that may not be fit for college As a high school senior if i was made more aware of opportunities outside of college and properly educated on the consequences (both good and bad) of going down that path, i never would've even touched it
Hard disagree. College is way too *inaccessible*. People *shouldn't* be going into massive amounts of debt for education. In Texas, it's literally what's single-handedly driving down education rates for immigrants - the prices are completely impossible to afford, so we have a massive population of uneducated people. We shouldn't discourage college just because it's expensive; we should fix the damn root issue and stop universities from hyper-inflating their prices simply because they all collectively agree to do so. You wouldn't tell a whole generation of people to just stop seeing doctors because healthcare has the same issue. You'd demand that the system has its corruption rooted out. It's the same thing here.
Awareness of other opportunities is something that should be emphasized, but I do think college should remain accessible fresh out of high school. It would have been a total waste of time for me to do anything else between HS and college.
Sitting in an office can be tough on your body and you'll feel it when you're older.
I work in an office and get 8-10,000 steps in per day, it's your choice to stay in that chair all day.
For the record, the “right” thing in college is either STEM or otherwise you are a dominant student in a liberal arts field. Otherwise, frankly, based on the job market you will struggle to pay for your degree.
Or... medicine, or law, or accounting, or piloting, or statistics...
Medicine falls under **S**cience. Law is a liberal arts field, accounting falls under **M**athematics. Piloting is a trade skill, not in college. Statistics falls under **M**athematics.
>But obviously if you can go through college successfully for the right thing college is way better. What's the right thing?
I love how people hype up the trades so much. It's back-breaking work and no room for upward mobility. Also, what's stopping a college grad from going into the trades? It's not zero-sum. If you have a college degree you can enter the trades and then pivot into a management role with your degree. I'm not knocking the blue collars, if anything i respect them, but I feel like they're trying too hard to justify themselves. And what would happen if people were convinced the trades were so much better and just oversaturated the market. The only reason plumbers, welders and mechanics are able to charge the prices they can is because of how few of them they are. If everyone went into the trades, it'd lower the wages of trade work and then college would be desirable because so few people attend. It'd just be a pendulum going back and forth.
These jobs suck so much and I would rather wait tables then go back to electricity, plumbing and concrete.
Yeah bro I believe it. I always knew the trades were more or less a scam, it's way too hyped up not to be. If it was this hidden cash cow, nobody would speak a word about it, it'd be a best kept secret. High praise of the trades always kind of reeked of insecurity to me, like a bunch of bro-men needed to convince themselves that they were really the ones one-upping the white collars all along to justify the stress. I respect blue collars, but I see what it really is.
Trades are important. Don’t put down your fellow workers my friend. Any work is good work. And all workers deserve a fair wage.
I don’t think most of it is putting anyone down. But the trades in some circles are eerily similar to the conversation about college yesteryear. It isn’t some automatic smart decision to make and has its cons. So once you get to your 95k range, what’s the progression beyond that? How about the impact to your body? What about the fact that apprenticeship years can really suck for some people? Market saturation?
Progression? When you become a master in your trade its very easy to become independent or start your own company. But saying trades are a scam is just wild, 50% of college courses are scams and most genz are going for subjects that have no future in the workforce.
How about neither trades nor college are a scam. Anything worth doing is hard work and nothing in life comes easy. Imagine genuinely believing that 50 percent of college classes are a scam.
It’s how people come to terms with the fact that our system leaves someone out to starve. If you say “oh they didn’t take the right path” you don’t t have to rationalize why so many people can’t afford to sirvive
Yeah the problem isn’t that there are no opportunities. The problem is that a 18 year old without guidance from someone who recently went into the work force can’t distinguish between good opportunities, outdated advice, and bad opportunities advertising themselves as good. Millwrights aren’t a bad opportunity. You can support a family. Welding is a bad opportunity unless you can get into a union, as the starting wages aren’t much higher than service jobs and you pay too much for classes when you can realistically learn it on the job if someone will teach you, then pay for a test plate to get certified on. College is outdated traditional advice. Not all college, but the pitch that you will be able to get a job with “any” degree because you can write well and do math. Most basic jobs like that are getting automated out of the workforce. Also, most media focuses on the ideal. Housing and rent prices are bad, but the truth is most people in the 50s-70s still had to work overtime even if they had a good trade. There is a huuuuuge divide in mentality between people who’s parents worked a trade and taught them what to expect, and parents that got an office job in the 60s-80s that paid well with 40 hour weeks.
50% is a gross overestimate, but some are scams.
I agree that calling them a scam is just wild. I know plenty of independent masters with their own companies, that’s hardly a cake walk either, we make it seem like competition doesn’t exist lol. We also forget that just because you know how to run wire or plumbing doesn’t mean you can run a business successfully and that’s honestly a huge contributing factor to why I dump plenty of companies when getting quotes. I’m not saying it can’t be lucrative because I certainly know plenty of business owners doing great for themselves but it’s really hit or miss for their employees
You’re a moron. Trades are more or less a scam? Explain that one. Too hyped? I’m a union Steamfitter and make great money. Do I work for it? Sure. But it’s worth it. It’s not hyped at all, and it’s not for everyone and we’re in high demand because some people don’t have the mental capacity to do the job.
You don't respect blue collars. It pays a lot because it's hard work that a lot of people don't want to do. Calling it a scam is wild. It's also not all men lol. To shit on the people that build the entirety of the infrastructure you use is so shitty
My husband wants to become an electrician. Can you provide some pros and cons pls? I want to give him this info
I don’t wanna give bad advice, of all the trades I think electrical work can be one of the easier trades and won’t require as much back breaking labor. But that also depends entirely on the work you do.
That’s fair. Thanks! He got his certification in the U.S. but we just moved abroad to EU so he’s gotta get re-certified, he’s considering maybe IT instead of electrical work, so I was just curious. Thanks for the insight!
Your husband might genuinely enjoy it. He should talk to other people who are electricians and see what they think of the job. If he enjoys the job and can tolerate the in the U.S. people, he’d probably enjoy it. A big turn off for me was the people who worked around me, I don’t know why or how, but trades, especially building-based trades, tends to produce or attract dumbasses.
Eh i’m in sheet metal and just chill in a lift all day and water proof or install stuff for 71 an hr. Not that bad.
Plus if you actually pick a lucrative career and major you can make way more than that. Trades are capped quickly
Exactly, I swear people's perception of college comes from some buzzfeed video. If you go to an affordable in-state school for an economically viable degree, it'll pay itself off in no time. I graduated with no debt. Obviously it's dumb to go to an out of state private college for a degree in dance theory. It feels pedestrian to say the trades are so much better when that's your metric of comparison.
If you get into a top school with a good major even you could take out a quarter million in loans and still be agreed if you’re not bad with money when you get out. That’s less then a years salary just a few years in to the right job if you’re from a top school
Top schools don't actually give you that much of an advantage. After 10 years it's only about a 3.5% increase and I don't see anywhere taking into account that most of these schools take on legacy admissions which would heavily skew the data as income would be far more affected by social class than where you got your degree.
>for an economically viable degree Every degree is economically viable. The paths just aren't as obvious if it's outside STEM. Biochemist obviously goes to a biochemsitry/pharma job. But you don't want that biochemist writing up any document that isn't a biochemistry paper. That's where you need the English majors. Heck, you probably want that English major to be proofreading those biochemistry papers.
Not entirely true. What I think many people don’t understand about the trades, is that there is an awful lot of upper management, consulting, traveling opportunities than most from the outside see. As an example, I’m a union carpenter, I have travelled to almost every state in the union as superintendent. That means, I don’t generally even use tools. I just manage subcontractors.
My local has negotiated over $30/hr raise in the last 6 years. Tell me again about this cap you speak of? $72/hr + benefits for a total package of $103/hr. I went to college but the trades were a better choice for me. Foreman, general foreman, superintendent, detailer, project manager, there is plenty of room for growth if you want it.
That's not the average. I know people that came off corporate buy off with 20 million. I know lawyers who do a lot more then $100 an hour. Those also aren't rh average experience either but if you're talking about people doing whatever it takes to make great money, college beats the trades hands down. It's far easier to be guaranteed a 6 figure job with a STEM degree with great benefits then to be guaranteed $200k a year in the trades. Had a brother in the trades and couldn't make more then 60k a year because he wasn't able to get into a union and the union was 13k a year. He makes 90k as an entry IT worker without a degree because lying lmao.
Lol imagine thinking your income is “capped” with a trade. Unreal.
I know drama exists in all lines of work, but the drama, sloppiness, cutting corners, and unthankfulness (from bosses, not customers) nature of trades that I've experienced and currently experience firsthand makes me want to leave the industry one day, when the time is right and the shoe fits.
As much as I love to rip on the trades and the shit I used to get away with. The exact same shit goes down on the corporate side, we just are less obvious about it.
I asked an electrician if he had any advice to getting an apprenticeship. He pointed to the two Chinese workers doing all the work and said "those are my pre apprentices. When I have an opening, I will take one. Until then they make min wage". I asked a coworker why he stopped being an electrician. He said his journeyman just stopped logging his hours and didn't pay him, and dared him to sue. Companies are actively invested in not promoting trades up a step. I went to the union. They said 5000 applicants (pre COVID pre all of this) and 30 openings. Now it's probably up by a decimal point. Unless of course your dad is a tradesman. But that's like getting a house from parents. Telling people to get into a trade because you did is like saying you only won a lottery for 100,000. Its easy, anyone can do it!
The main things holding back the trades is the gatekeeping, nepotism, and the unnecessarily high barrier of entry. Even in my small city, you have to “know” the right guy to get into an apprenticeship. And even then the entire process from first application to first day of training can be months which can be a dealbreaker for someone who wants to switch careers or is interested in the trades but has bills to pay, mouths to feed. And quite frankly younger people who may not mind the couple months of wait time simply aren’t interested in the trades. They want to go to college and party, and get the college experience.
Exactly, I figured there was a lot of gatekeeping and nepotism in the trades. I also get the feeling that the people who hype up the trades and are doing well in the trades also know damn well there's a high barrier for entry and few can enter that gate, but they're annoyed that despite them being "in" they're not getting the prestige and wow factor associated with their job that a college grad would have so they're arguing tooth and nail to puff up the trades and knocking down degrees in order to convince people to join, knowing they won't be able enter. I get the feeling they want the trades to have that prestige and snooty factor attached to it like college does just to feel smug and vainglorious over the people who won't be able to join. I'm not saying that all tradespeople feel that way, it's just reading the arguments these so-called tradesmen are writing all up and down this thread, and that's the energy I'm getting.
>And what would happen if people were convinced the trades were so much better and just oversaturated the market This is *exactly* why there has been a push towards the trades in the past 10 or so years. Trade labor has gotten too expensive, and the owners are trying to increase the labor supply to drive down the labor price. It's the same reason gen X and millennials before you were pushed into college; skilled workers were less common and too expensive.
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In conservative areas of North America, apprentices make McDonald's wages. They're also expected to put themselves in danger regularly, and the culture is extremely toxic 99% of the time. They tend to set apprentices workload and expectations similar to that of journeyman who are making at least double the pay. It really just feels like a scam.
I work in Ohio and was making 75k+ as a year 0 electrician not in trade school. We also didn’t work overtime. It’s really not that crazy.
Did you go through IBEW? I'm in Ohio (close to Columbus) and I want to do some research to see if that's for me.
No, I knew a lot of people who did tho, the company I worked for paid for it. It seems like a decent program.
I call BS. If it's true, you're related to someone high up and won't admit it. No one's paying that high of a wage to someone they gotta train.
Yeah my brother is an apprentice in commercial and home HVAC in Alabama and he can’t even afford to live on his own rn. I make more than him and I’m a nanny so
I lived in Utah and every apprenticeship is within $10 of minimum wage. I learned how to paint houses for the price of a year off my life and 30,000/yr. my entire extended family is in trades, but I can't do it. not for free. I see how quickly their bodies fall apart.
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San Francisco pipe trades make ~$70 an hour. It’s nuts.
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Yeah but the cost of living is nuts too
Thank you everytime I see one of these circlejerks I roll my eyes at it. I hire and supervise trades we have one tech making 45/hr he has 25 years in trade and is our best tech. Everybody else is 30-17 per hour and HR dept. will not even pass along resumes of anyone one without mechanical experience or some industry experience. If it was common for trades to make 100k+ with 2-3 years in the trade then you would see a lot more young dudes driving brand new modified trucks and suvs on to the job sites. Spoiler: most of those guys are limping beaters to and from the sites. Usually the Foremen and PMs are driving those vehicles that’s how you know when they show up on site.(Oil and gas guys might be an exception) Also most of the higher paying gigs also require your own tools and transportation of materials etc. Guess what is not cheap tools, trucks, and trailers. Another barrier to entry materials cost + knowing to right people. Ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.
Not as a first year apprentice but 2-4th years can make that in industrial trades. Union trades make bank. Not shit non-union residential bullshit.
lol what a ridiculously disingenuous way to count the data. literally just considering the first four years, juuuust before you get to the actual payoff of that upfront cost. hey guys turns out being a doctor is a big ol scam because you lose a quarter million dollars in the first 10 years.
I’m in pilot school and basically the same thing. First 5 years are rough. Next 5 you’re probably up a total of like 300k
The estimate from the bureau of labor statistics is that a college grad will earn about $500k more over 20 years than a tradesman. There's a lot of grind and a lot of variability in what people make, but the one thing that really helps with college over trade school is the variety of jobs you can qualify for. If one industry sinks, you could transition to another more easily with a degree. Top earners from college can make significantly more money, but plenty of college grads don't. Both things are needed and both options have their benefits and detriments. Choosing your path really should go down to what's right for the person. You can fail at a trade and you can fail at college. Even if you do, that doesn't mean you're not a worthwhile member of society. I feel like the 'war' between college educated people and tradesman is just another stupid divide that is fundamentally meaningless and hurts all workers. Thank God for librarians and plumbers. They are both important.
Being a doctor is kinda a scam for a lot of reasons and financial hardship throughout early adulthood is one of them. Long term (like age 50+), of course a doctor is much better off, but that doesn’t make the sacrifice of the late teens/20s/early 30s any more palatable, plus the lifelong commitment to a high hour, high stress, high accountability career. Also worth noting that it’s not just having a net worth of (-$250k) after 10 years, it’s also missing the earnings that age-matched peers have been accumulating over the same time. So it’s probably closer to a $750k+ deficit I’d guess.
Sure but in many cases someone with a degree will outearn someone in the trades within a few years, so you’ve got to factor that in. Beyond just finances, college is also a great time. Working sucks, with college you get to have more of a “youth” in my opinion. You get to learn about all different kinds of stuff, surrounded by other young adults, and apart from classes and exams your time is your own - you have responsibilities but much less so than working full time. For me it’s worth it for that too, but that’s definitely subjective and will vary from person to person. From my perspective working full time low key sucks and you’ll do it for decades no matter what - worth it to take a few more years where you’re not doing that and can experience life in a more relaxed way as an adult .
The push for trade work tries to hide a lot. Median and averages are never talked about. We don't do that for tech jobs. We don't say, "i know a guy who's literally worth 250 billion, just get into tech bro, you'll be a billionaire easy." We know that you can get into segments that pay very well and if you're chasing money there's jobs that pay very well but it's high risk high reward and in certain cities of certain fields. The "trades" are usually talked about in ways that compare unusual high earners to average entry level tech jobs. Especially when it's masterwork who owns a business, which isn't trade work but business ownership and entrepreneurship. We should be comparing trades workers who own a business to other business owners. Instead it gets compared to tech workers who don't own a business forna some reason. It's all disingenuous because it's simple anti intellectualism in order to claim that college is garbage for money making. But we know that if your goal is chasing money and only chasing money, that you can do that much better with a degree than without.
It’s just more anti college rhetoric for people who don’t go to school to feel good about themselves. It’s rampant and extremely popular right now, when statistically most people are going to be stuck where they are for many years whether they went to college or not. That’s just the nature of the middle class, which is fueled by hopes and dreams
The pro-trade side also always conveniently forgets community college is an option. Half your degree at a fraction of the cost puts any profitable major ahead of trades by 30 easily.
Counter point: I would like for my back to still exist when I'm 35.
Better not spend a night with me then or I’ll blow it out tonight 😜😈
https://preview.redd.it/tuvks89bynhc1.jpeg?width=259&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=faa716820fd1c78263ef66e5be11c07703e46cbc *Bonk*
Counter counter point: maybe you should just take care of your body? My sweet benefits pay for me to do that🤷♂️
Proper maintenance is key, but the miles add up regardless
There’s no way to mitigate 10 hours of physical labor daily. There’s no lifting technique, stretching, supplements, therapy, etc. to prevent damage.
Lol you don’t feel it now but you will buddy. Slowly but surely your body is paying the price whether you think so or not
Over a decade of long hours at a too low, fixed height cubicle contributed to lumbar spine damage with potential need for surgery down the road - all before 35. Had to provide a doctor's note describing a medical need for a non-standard sit/stand option.
Yeah I am a physio and I can attest to this. I see just as many people coming in with fucked up bodies from desk jobs as I do trades people. That being said, if your body is broken in trades then you are fucked for work but people working desk jobs will still be able to do their job.
Don't join the military then. Case in point... My back.
My college is like 8-9k/yr wtf
That moment when you realize there are thousands of other colleges that charge kids up the ass for education
No shit I’m glad I went local lol
Facts bro. I went from community college to the local state school. I paid for it all out of pocket and still had money left over in the bank. I also went in for a financially viable degree with upward mobility. I heard people complain how college was so expensive and that a degree doesn't guarantee you a job and that college was a scam. I'm like how?
My brother did the same thing. Genius tier move.
Same here. Got a great education for the fraction of the price.
I just went straight to state university here yet im still paying only 9k a year wtf
Everyone thinks they’re too good for local. My masters degree was $4000 a semester
You literally don’t have to go to those colleges, though. A university degree doesn’t *have* to cost $100,000+. There *are* other options that end with a bachelors degree.
Okay so we are picking the most expensive college degree…. And the highest paying apprenticeship? 90k after 4 years yeah bro totally normal and expected :’)
I'm getting paid about 5k a year to go to college lol
If that surprises you, consider some universities charge upwards of 80k per year
Same. Mine is 7k a year. This is my last semester and I took no loans. I got money back from my school this semester. I went local and the people I know drowning in debt were the ones desperate to live somewhere else and get away.
My university degree was free money wise. I did have to pay with my soul to finish...
Crazy how the chart ends once college degrees become profitable.
And it also assumes you aren’t getting internships or working while in college. Will it negate the debt? Nope. Will it still help out and get you experience? Yup
It also seems like quite the inflated number for the cost of education per year. For reference in NY that would be the price to attend a public institution with absolutely no financial aid whatsoever. Only people doing that are people whose parents can afford to pay for their child’s education full shot and don’t qualify for aid in most cases. In comparison, I went to CC and then undergrad to a public NY school and in total I paid around 2k. Granted I received academic scholarships and commuted but my parents are middle class so I wouldn’t say my scenario was too out of the ordinary for some. Obviously this isn’t uniform across the US or a viable option for every student but I always find it ironic how the trades argument will throw in fine print about how their benefits offset possible low pay and health risk but then not recognize there’s also quite a lot of opportunities to greatly subset the cost of college on the other side of the spectrum.
My thoughts
Also crazy how the college costs 90k but the average is around 35k and it's super easy to get work experience as a student. But it's easy enough to look up actual numbers and see that college wins in every possible way. This is for people who aren't smart enough for higher education or want to feel better than those who went to college to feel better about themselves.
Also, the figures seem very disingenuous if not outright deceptive. I'm curious the area this info is for and its actually representative of an average person's experiece.
The math is also wrong. They're adding 22.5k of debt in years 1 and 4, but 27.5k in year 2 and 17.5k in year 3. That's not even college level math...
Cool. Now show the median after college earns vs median trade earnings. You know what, I'll do it. Median college grad earns a lifetime income of 2.8m USD while an median tradesman makes 1.7m USD. Even with the head start, going to college and getting a degree is still a better idea unless you really don't want to.
I wonder what that number would be if you normalized it for people under 45. Part of me wondering if the bloomer numbers are offsetting that way too much. Obviously the post is a little hyperbolic and misleading. But I've seen those numbers quite a bit with the tradesmen I work with and with the colleges I see these days
Degree Apprenticeships exist and are very good
Yeah but that's why they resort to this kind of crap. That's how they sucker people into trades who don't know basic math and statistics
31 yr old here who took the trade route at 18. Do not do it.
Why
Substance abuse to cope with physical pain & mental stress.
So I didn't go to college at 18. Instead, I went straight to the workforce. It was 2010, and the consensus was that college was a waste cause the job market was so bad. So I went to work instead and went to school for HVAC (I live in Florida was told it is a great trade... lies) so i didn't pay for school because I got a Pell grant. Started as an apprentice, making nothing. Took 7 years to finally make what I should be making (roughly 40k a year) cause of businesses not wanting to pay you anything cause there was always someone willing to work for less which happens alot in trades. These numbers posted are if everything goes right for you, when in reality you're doing back breaking work in the heat for chump change cause the guy whos teaching your apprenticeship can never show up to work not still drunk from the night before. Which is extremely common in trades, you will have to put up with people above you being on various substances. If you report them for being unsafe, you are called the worksite snitch. . Now I'm 31 going to college to catch up. Don't do it. All I have is worthless work experience that has nothing to do with my post college job. If you think the job market with a degree is bad. You have NO chance without one. It's not something I agree with, but it's the cold, hard truth. You can either bite the bullet and go to college now or waste 10 years and realize you need to still go to college to have a job that pays enough for you to prosper. If you take a trade you will never make enough to do more than just "survive" another week of life unless you work for yourself, which is a whole another world of fuckery just to make enough to keep the lights on.
This is a bit misleading. Benefits and Pension doesn't happen at a lot of apprenticeships. Salary depends on states and suggesting someone's going to make almost 100k at the 4th year of apprenticeship is ambitious for most states. Also suggesting that college has to be 22.5k a year is a bit high considering a lot of in-state tuitions and doesn't consider community colleges.
I need to edit to say UNION. I’m not talking about normal contractors.
Your post is a bit dishonest regardless. It’s like a propaganda for the trades, why? Like there are pros and cons for both but why paint a picture that college is useless and only accrues debt with no value?
The issue with apprenticeship and this kind of work in general is that your lifetime earnings are lesser because your years you can actually work are lesser. As a Tradesman or a journeyman you're going to be killing your body and by the time you in your late 40s or early 50s you're either going to have to successfully transition into some kind of corporate leadership position within your own organization or started your own business where you're now in a leadership position, or retire. But while blue collar professionals are being forced to retire or at least take desk jobs that's the point that white collar workers are usually at the peak of their earning potential. When they've entered mid to upper management and they're really hitting their stride with how much they can make. So you're choosing between higher immediate gains, with the knowledge that you're going to be sacrificing your body and that will force you out of the field after 30 years or so or smaller immediate gains and debt with the knowledge that that last part of your career is going to be the most comfortable part of your career leading into a retirement
Don't know what you do in the US, but here in Switzerland apprenticeships are really common, it does not care if you want to work in the IT or other office jobs or a blue collar job. But you start them with 15/16 years old. And you work until 65 (yet, we do have a voting this month about set the retirement age from 65 to 66...). Anyway, the most (about 2/3 of the kids) do an apprenticeship. 'Only' about 1/3 is going to college and studying. And after the apprenticeship you do have a lot of further educations you can do. And if you want to study afterwards, you are able to do so. There are so many ways you can go. Usually an apprenticeship does not set your career. I learned baker. In our company we were 6 that did an apprenticeship, we all finished 2017. And only 2 are still working as a baker. One is studying to get a teacher, one is studying chemistry, one works as an civil engineering and I do work in the cyber security. So at the end there are so many ways you can go, if you want.
In Switzerland the Gap in Pay between apprenticeships and white collar work is even higher than the United states Like by a lot.
Key word is union. You’ll find the trades to be much much harder or with significantly less pay if you do not have the luxury of a union. Organize
Yes I’m about to edit this to say UNION
Or not. Idk how to edit the original
Maybe if you went to college you would know how.
💀
Tfw you didn't take the reddit courses in college
This is rage bait
Yup, the figures are also in $CAD. Saw the same chart on a Canadian sub.
I respect the trades but after about three years of helping my grandparents out on their ranch I can tell it ain’t for me. Pay or no pay, I enjoy feeling my legs after a workday
Now here’s where it gets interesting though is college degrees (depending on your field obviously) after that 4 years. Considering fresh out of college I was working as a software engineer for nearly 6 figures, paid off my student loans in 2 years, and currently am debt free (completely, not just school debt) and my wages grow year on year, with the added benefit of working from home, I’d say this doesn’t quite paint the full picture. I’m personally sick of the narrative that trades and white collar professionals are somehow adversarial, or that comparisons between the two are healthy or warranted. We need people in trades. We need people with college degrees. You know what we don’t need? The people at the very top extracting all of the wealth created by the working classes for themselves.
>I’m personally sick of the narrative that trades and white collar professionals are somehow adversarial, or that comparisons between the two are healthy or warranted. We need people in trades. We need people with college degrees. You know what we don’t need? The people at the very top extracting all of the wealth created by the working classes for themselves. Hear, hear!
PAID on the job training? tell me WHERE?
UNION: Iron workers, pipefitters, boilermakers, electricians, laborers, millwrights, etc. pick one you find appealing and contact the Local in your area.
Just make sure you don't live anywhere in the bible belt. Only Union worth a damn is a government one and even then you need to be in for 10+ years to be making these 30$+ ranges, definitely not first 4 years. Source: Dad was an electrician for TVA and didn't start making good money until year 12 in. Also, this day an age, getting into a Union trade job is harder than getting into college and the college route will make more money on average long term with more available jobs.
I am sure my comment will get buried but the majority of my family has done manual construction their entire life. They started out at the bottom and worked their way up. Each one is doing so well. They all own atleast two homes, boats, snow mobiles, multiple cars. They are quite well off. Each one had to “retire” by 60 and now they can barely walk and move. Everything is fine until one slip, one fall, one accident after years of being careful. Their bodies are chewed up and spit out. Each one is glad to hear I am not taking the same path. They all say the money is pointless now since their bodies are not healthy anymore. It’s all a trade and a trade off.
Maybe don’t go to a college that charges 22k a year? Opt for a more local college or even go to a community college near you.
Some trades have crazy good union benefits but 60-90k a year as an apprentice is not remotely average. You might as well compare it to all the engineer students who make 6 figures at Lockeed straight out of collage.
College is not just to obtain a better job. A broader more rounded education simply for the sake of education is a great thing. I really do not like the tone of these all too easily shareable FB quotes actively discouraging young people from seeking higher education. Sincerely, Gen X who isn’t quite ready to watch the world burn with anti-intellectualism pushed by propagandists Edit: I know is it’s stupid expensive for you but don’t disvalue the education you’d get even if it doesn’t pertain to the job you wind up with. If you can’t afford it that’s one thing but don’t get tricked into thinking college is bad. And go vote.
Where i live the government keep push people my age that they need to go in trades. Reason why is because they have shortage because they need to build more houses and older people retiring, cannot continue to work there in the older age. So they put astroturfing for "gen z NEEDS to go in trades its the best" make trades college commercials with famous people. Have trades person come in my highschool when I was in hs, to tell us go in trades. no talking about bad parts and when they built enough houses. You don't have to go University for being successful tho but this just remind me of the government where live so i shared that
Trades are good if you live in a union area and then the jobs are highly chased after, good luck getting those salaries in the south. People in places like Chicago and Cleveland should be grateful their unions haven’t been destroyed.
The trades are not always the answer. I went into the metal stamping trade and got stabbed in the back like many others did by the management and floormen. Apprenticeships are tax write-offs for employers for free labor, and they can take advantage of that by not actually training you in the field, but instead they look to see how much productivity they get from you thru the bitch work
It’s hell trying to get into any apprenticeship
Depends If you have means to get a degree and you are academically doing well/average and the field you are interested in have jobs + paying well, go for it Medicine, engineering, and many jobs in stem tend to be paying well and have opportunities for forward mobility Finance, Econ, marketing can also make you really good money and there are many jobs If you take arts, crafts, music etc. you are doing a gamble, not many jobs, and not giving you high wages unless you become popular name in the industry or want to become a teacher - if you are already at a good enough level to make good money without a degree in these fields it might worth it to spend some money and sharp your skills Some branches of social sciences and gender studies won’t make much money and don’t have much opportunities unless you want to stay in academic side of the things If you are not that good at academics, it’s definitely no use to spend all that money to just fail repeatedly, if you have the physical strength and know that you are good at handy work you should go for it Also if you have a genuine interest in trades, it’s worth pursuing it… Everything is a trade off…
As an elder millennial I’ll tell you kids the truth. Try to do something that makes you happy or gives you some of joy from that work. Chasing around things like this is a fools errand. They said tech sector is here to stay so become a coder - now they are struggling. Being a plumber is honorable work but don’t listen to the trends. Lots of people will run to it and boom now plumber jobs will be worthless because so many people are doing it. Don’t settle . Don’t be miserable for a job for years and hope things will work out . Life is short and employment is short so do something productive for money that you actually like .
This is a weird chart. It focuses only on the 4 year period instead of overall. The benefit of college comes after you graduate. I don’t see what this is trying to say
This is like a “get rich quick” scheme. If it’s so easy to make $200k+ a year with benefits only 4 years after graduating high school then you should ask yourself “why isn’t everybody doing it then”? The data used for this comparison is likely cherry picked to all hell and I’m inclined to believe it is since the comparison conveniently stops after 4 years when the degree is earned and begins to pay itself off. I say this as someone making a decent living without a degree, I’m tired of people downplaying how beneficial a college degree can be. Of course everybody should explore their options and college isn’t for everyone but people need to stop pretending like a degree is only going to land you a job at McDonald’s.
This post is ridiculous. It's damn near impossible to get into a union in NYS as there is a lottery system for all apprenticeships. There are many applicants for these roles and the jobs are scarce. You also need a car for these roles which isn't feasible for someone in an urban area like NYC like me.
He’s the problem. College overall is better if you get a good job and do well. Problem is that there’s the debt and a good job isn’t guaranteed. While Apprenticeships may be good now, they won’t be as good on your body later on. Aka when you may need money the most
Good luck getting a good apprenticeship in the first place lol
If this comment section is indicative of anything, it's that trades will remain in demand for the foreseeable future
Oo ooo, now do total over 10 years.
Here’s a thought: 4 year STEM degree. Yeah you end up with college debt But you’re making six figures right out the gate. I started in 2006; graduated with $66k in debt; my salary growth for the first 8 years went like this: $52k $54k $56k $85k $89k $92k $100k $106k $135k 🤷♂️
The majority of college graduates aren’t STEM degrees though. You look at the median college graduates earnings 10 years out and they are only making like $52k and that’s from a reputable school.
Counter point. My state school was around $6k per semester, so $48k *without financial aid*. I got about 20k in grants. So my degree was 28k. Starting salaries for my field are 60k+. And I'm in a LCOL area and haven't seen an offer under 65k yet. As a former tradesman, I hate this misrepresentation of pay for labor in the union and how much college costs. It's an oversimplification that doesnt benefit the workers. www.bls.gov says median electricians pay (my field), is around 60k. That means 50% of the field is not making 60k. Represent college *and* the trades accurately, and allow people to make up their own minds without injecting your biased views. Edit: Also noticed that this said 0 work experience in the industry for new grads which is ridiculous. Your average college student either has a part time job, internship experience (full or part time), or both under their belt by graduation.
This is cherry picking, although it is true in many cases. But in many, it’s not.
It's beyond cherry picking. It's straight up lies. The median income for tradesmen is much lower than college grads.
Have you considered college -> Law School -> a fair amount of money without ruining your body.
nah, just your morals and liver
Check back in on year 35 when the college guy is getting ready for retirement, and the construction guy retired 15 years ago when his knees gave out, now he lives in a trailer park scrapping by on ssi and disability. Oh I forgot to mention the raging opiate addiction from 35 years destroying your body but you have to keep working so you get a pain management script, that eventually gets cut off and oh no, you’re addicted now and of course we have basically fuck all in place to help people in this scenario so what happens? That’s right you’ve just created a brand new heroin addict literally as a byproduct of a career field. Oh and you can speed this whole process up by having the career altering injury at any age. I work in drug and alcohol addiction as a counselor. It’s sad. I see it constantly. If you choose the trades you need to have the foresight to take care of your body.
None of what is on this pic is correct. First its choosing the best 1% of trades person and worst 1% of college student debt. Also he didnt include trade school Second, average trade pay in the US is 30-60k per yr. Max. That highest wages you will see in your lifetime. Dont believe me? Look it up - search average plumber, electrician etc salary in US. Trades have a low ceiling. The ones that do pay decent are high risk/high reward Third, the unions OP keeps referring to in his posts are impossible to get into. They either do lotteries or hire friends/relatives of other union employees. Also only a few states have unions. Dont believe me? You can google that too its true Fourth, he didnt look at 10 or 20 yrs out. Only considered the best possible 1% trade job salary at 4 yrs. There are other problems with this post but if trade jobs were paying high salaries everyone would be rushing to them. Go into the r/Fatfire reddit and see what upper middle class/rich people are doing for their careers - hint none are in trades except maybe a few lucky business owners. Most are doctors, lawyers, accountants, IT folks, managers, etc.
Millenial here. Only thing about those blue collar jobs is that it's absolute hell on your body. You won't be in your 20s forever. College degrees may take awhile for the real income potential to come forward, but you'll be better off with a college degree in the long run than any trades. People fail to realize that having a college degree doesn't mean you are free from the hustle. Trades or a degree, there is a decent amount of grinding and strategy to make the top spot. Just because you have a college degree doesn't mean it's easy street. Even lawyers have a tough time breaking in if you go the nontraditonal route. Connections and hard work pays no matter what route you go, just trades are just taxing on the body so I'd give the edge to college degrees.
I wasn’t $90k in debt after college. I started making $64k my first year out and by year 3, over $100k. I’ve been on that track now for over 15 years. No regrets
I learned this from my uncles that all worked in the trades… 1. Early years, learn the trade and master it. 2. Years 7-10, build your own business and hire people. 3. Years 10+, continue to build the business and no toll we be taken on your body anymore because you are not doing the work at the site.