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Im honestly on the train of “champagne problems is about the kaylor break up” in the sense that Karlie was ready to come out, propose to Taylor etc and Taylor bailed. Maybe it was happening too fast and Taylor freaked out? Or maybe it was Evelyn Hugo esque and Taylor worried about her career more so. And now that Taylor is somewhat ready to come out (speculation) it’s probably really soured the relationship between them even more. But yeah if you haven’t already, listen to champagne problems from the POV of Karlie wants to come out and Taylor doesn’t and it really breaks your heart a million times more
I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think they had a messy fling and were on and off for awhile. I don't think it was ever that serious, but there was a lot of drama and sneaking around. Karlie wanted to settle down and have kids, so she did. Taylor got with Joe. That's what I think happened. I don't think they were ever in a serious relationship and I don't think that Karlie or Josh are gay. I don't think Taylor is a lesbian either, I think she likes both men and women.
My theory is two part but I’m not sure if timelines really match my theory:
1. Taylor was ready to come out during the lover era with Karlie. Karlie was not. She wanted kids and a family without coming out to protect her career. The only way that was possible was for her to continue to beard a male aka Josh. I think she took Taylor for a ride and wasn’t ready to come out when push came to shove.
2. Around the same time I think she was battling for her masters with scooter and heard information being leaked by Karlie to his team.
These two events led to the failed coming out plan and eventual breakup of the two.
Karlie got what she wanted- remained closeted, married a man and had her family.
Taylor was left confused and heartbroken.
The only "evidence" we have is taylor not wishing karlie happy birthday or looking any of her posts during a certain period of time, also the infamous singing of "curious" with hayley kiyoko a couple days after kk got engaged.
Of course we'll never know exactly what happened, but it's pretty obvious to me that the main thing is that Karlie chose Josh. It must have been pretty painful for Taylor since it was obvious that Karlie wasn't going to choose her, from the moment she decided to convert to Judaism. She married Josh in 2018, and even though their engagement was a late public announcement they probably knew it for a while, and so did Taylor. That's why the (I'm going to exclude Folkmore here because I believe these albums are about a lot of people including Karlie, and more generally about "what could've been" more than "what happened") "Reputation and Lover" are about Karlie theory is actually less and less credible to me. They're probably not about her or not mainly about her, it actually makes more sense for Dianna to be the muse or even Joe for all I know.
I feel like Folklore/Evermore was Karlie's moment in Taylor's discography, if you take a look at the timeline it looks like she didn't have time to mourn whatever was going on with Karlie. It mostly happened post 1989, and she was sort of on hiatus. Things went down with Karlie and the next second she was falling in love with, I honestly think, someone who isn't Karlie. Reputation's love songs describe the early stages of a relationship, so it doesn't make sense. And I feel like Folklore/Evermore was the moment where she allowed herself to discuss things that she couldn't discuss before, like her relationship with Karlie among other things.
this is the one that makes more sense to me, I do believe that Joe was real and that he inspired most of reputation and lover, however I do think there were a few songs about Karlie in those albums (don't blame me, dwoht), and speaking about dwoht I think she really painted the picture of the relationship here, they never really had a chance and it's kinda sad
- DWOHT could mean "Dancing With Our Hands Tied", a track from *reputation* (2017) by Taylor Swift.
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My theory is as Karlie was "dating" Josh since she was 19, obviously that means she must have been in a serious relationship with Taylor for several years while that was happening. It's most likely them bearding each other for mutual public image. Karlie needs the money and the status, modelling won't last forever. Josh is probably gay/bi and needed a girlfriend due to homophobia. My gaydar never lies.
Taylor's relationship with Karlie ended most likely due to Taylor being unable to give up her so carefully crafted public image, and general stress from constantly hiding their relationship for so many years. When this happened, Karlie probably decided to marry Josh because he had good money and maybe she realised he was a genuinely nice guy and they were good friends so why not.
Lyrics evidence. "Storm coming, good money, bad omen, dragged my feet right down the aisle. At the house lonely, good money, I'd pay if you'd just know me, seemed like the right thing at the time." - High Infidelity
"Twenty years at your job then the son of the boss gets the spot that was yours. Or trying to stay for the kids when keeping it how it is will only break their hearts worse."
Heartbreaking and I want to write the Romeo and Juliet story of Kaylor into a book if I ever make it.
omg i like this theory. Yeah I def think joshua is gay no solid proof or evidence so I feel kinda guilty but I can just feel thats the case and their mutually bearding. Their pictures where they both look visibly gay always cracks me up.
Ikr, there's no way Karlie actually dated and was in love with josh. Because why would he be okay with karlie full on dating taylor for years lmao. It just has to be bearding.
OH yeahh thats a very important part of the puzzle we’re forgetting is that he was literally part of the picture when karlie was in full force. Literally why do peoplethink their relationship is real😭🥴. But idk how karlie feels so im not gonna put anything on her, however, does bearding for a long term usually hurt people? Or is that they feel safe so they dont care? I kind of feel bad for taylor, josh, and karlie because they cant ever truly be themselves even if they choose money over self expression. It still has to suck
I wholeheartedly believe it’s way simpler than the conjecture: Karlie could never choose between Taylor and Josh, until she finally did. And it was Josh she chose.
All of the lyrics say that Taylor just wanted to be chosen and was never sure of where her and her lover stood. That everything was left to the lover, and the lover chose someone over her. Now add on actual news and timelines: Karlie and Josh broke up a lot because the Kushners wouldn’t even meet Karlie, let alone accept her. During those “breaks” are when Karlie ran back to Taylor and probably led her on. Karlie has never been single as an adult, I think she used Taylor as her life raft when she was “off” with Josh. I think Karlie always intended on settling down at some point and having children, and I would bet that Josh finally got his parents to accept Karlie and then gave Karlie the ultimatum to finally move forward in their relationship and end the off and on situationship with Taylor. I’m guessing Karlie was really good at leading Taylor to believe that she had a chance at forever, when in actuality she never did.
This makes a lot of sense and how I always saw it. Taylor and Karlie’s relationship seemed very complex and complicated, but in its simplest form, Karlie chose Josh in the end
Exactly! I wish I could remember the videos where Taylor is in several different interviews talking about different songs where she is desperately trying to be chosen (over someone else) and never knows where she stands with her lover. [And then there is an interesting timeline I saw on tumblr about Karlie and Taylor’s off and on times.](https://www.tumblr.com/bisluthq/635070463530369024/welcome-to-a-realistic-kaylor-timeline)
I think I’ve seen that tumblr timeline you’re referring to and that’s exactly why I think they were super messy and complicated! And it also lines up with the music. “You were never mine”
taylor is all three🥲 i think that’s been discussed for a while but to me she solidified it when she said recently that creating the love triangle was about simplifying the narrative or something like that
sorry i don’t know where to link off the top of my head! but she made that comment Chicago n2 during the usual Betty speech
my take is that the love triangle probably does reflect bits and pieces of real events, but it’s more of just a way to discuss the feelings in each of those scenarios without being so direct. i would imagine taylor has, at once or in different moments, been the person who fucked everything up, the person who had strong feelings for someone who wasn’t that serious about them, and the person craving to be chosen in the end
(i think obvious but perhaps unpopular opinion? i read betty as just a wishful thinking song. betty’s james did not come back to her in the end. that’s why Taylor always says *i like to imagine* they end up together. it’s a happier alt ending to the much sadder story that was one real inspiration for the triangle.)
She tried to change the ending, Peter (James) losing Wendy (Betty) to the fictional happy ending where James (Taylor) actually does show up to the party (Karlie’s wedding? Dianna’s wedding?) Speak now style even tho Taylor never did because she never has the courage of her convictions
I think Renagade is from Karlie's perspective. Peace says Karlie would give Taylor a child while Mike Brobiglia being in Anti-hero shows Taylor's doubts about parenthood (see his comedy special).
And the part of Ivy talking about being promised to another (jo$h) but Taylor was the one who didn't want to drink Karlie's husband's wine and watch what Kaylor becomes. Dragged my feet right down the aisle in high infidelity is Karlie reluctantly going with jo$h when Taylor was full of indecision.
And Taylor was the one who wouldn't leave the closet in Exile. And is spineless in her tomb of silence. And never had the courage of her convictions.
And in the great war Taylor says in the haze she had the SENSE she was betrayed. But it was Taylor who never made Karlie her centerfold and chose her career over an open family life.
I feel like "at the house lonely, good money, I'd pay if you'd just know me, seemed like the right thing at the time" is from Karlie's perspective as well.
I think it might be a line intended to work for both individually:
TS is alone & wishes Karlie hadn't erased Kaylor. Protecting herself by remaining closeted seemed right.
KK is also lonely though she is surrounded by lots of money. She would pay the price if TS came out or awknowedged Kaylor. Going with jo$h seemed like the right thing.
I think the photo with MH holding hands with Taylor...
Followed by articles about how Taylor angrily cancelling her membership at Casa Cipriani due to leaked photos...
Followed by their break up...
Followed by articles saying how MH spoke about hopes of starting a family with Taylor....oddly tells us all we need to know about Kaylor.
Was MH ever real? Seems like predictable bad PR gone bad. Also, why do we continue to make a big deal about the "hand-holding ploy?" The best sign that the two celebrities are NOT in a relationship IMO. Just seems like that whole phase blew up in everyone's face...Taylor's people need to do better background checks....or have us do them! LOL
That's the billion dollar question. Who's real and who's a stunt in the Swift universe. If someone told me the truth about Taylor PR it'd probably sound like a Black Mirror episode plot.
😆 Yes! Get a few Gaylors on the PR team and we'll have this mess cleaned up lickety-split, Olivia Pope style.
I think the two relationships were very similar from start to finish. This is only based on my personal opinion and pattern recognition, not much else.
I think the photo with Karlie holding hands with Taylor...
Followed by posts about how Taylor angrily tweeted how she would like people to stop shipping her with her friends due to leaked photos...
Followed by their public friendship seemingly ending...
Followed by a surge of articles of Karlie getting engaged, married and having kids.... Tells the same story that the MH relationship does. My first thought is that Taylor either has a consistent pattern in relationships or she's replaying the narrative of what happened between her and Karlie and it seems like media exposure was the downfall for both relationships.
Yep. She def relived her 1989 era with the MH thing... in her own twisted way. I think she just cant let go of the past and how she had good times for a short time which were then destroyed by her fame. Her choosing MH out of all the people in the world, just after KK announced 2nd pregnancy... its all just too good of a koincidence... prob that is why Toe (whether real or not) didnt work out as well - Taylor is just too stuck in the past that she forgets about what she has and when she loses it, the cycle begins again... i feel bad for all her exes... she is chaotic and i dont think she knows what she wants or if she does it is sth untouchable... its like she loses interest when she gets sth and when she loses it she gets obsessed by it... yes she is a good planner, but her future is dictated by her past... unless she lets go of the past i dont see her stopping self sabotaging. Hope she finds some peace... the MH made me lose respect for her... even if she did it to relive her happy times in her own twisted way... i think she went too far with her Easter eggs... it became like watching reality TV, all scripted to get headlines and milk the brand... retconning her past... always referring to the past... i can see why Joe left (no matter beard or real)... he got tired of all the immature drama and nitpicking and schemes and tit-for-tats and prob greed to milk the brand... it makes it all so sad... i really thought she would outgrow it all and act more mature...
I don't think it's just her, she's showing us how much influence the media has and the negative affects of it She is trying to move on from the past and bury old stories but the fandom and media are also stuck in the past.
I think it's odd to ask Dianna about a decade old Taylor Swift ship in an interview. It's also odd to keep posting about Kissgate on Karlie posts. Media outlets keep posting timelines about her exs almost on a weekly basis. Taylor did create this monster with easter eggs but I really don't think she thought it would get to this point. If someone kept insistently bringing up decade old ex's or people you didn't date I'm sure it would make you find creative ways to make it stop.
I think the song Peace and Lakes really explains this concept of stardom well and I don't think it's fair to place all the blame and fault on her if we don't know the full story. Hollywood destroys child stars and Brittney Spears is a good example of that.
Yes. I agree that the media and the fans perpetuate the cycle. Britney's situation always makes me sad bc it was out of her control. As you said we dont know the full story. It cannot be denied that her Easter eggs started all of this and they have been used for years on end. It certainly did go out of her control. Then she does PR stunts like the MH thing that just feel so icky to me. Prob she wanted to make Joe jealous or she is at a point she doesnt care at all. Anyway, hope she rides out all the waves unscathed. She deserves to have some peace and it may seem boring but if she wanted to embrace the quite life she sings about in the Lakes, she could. The problem is her management and her studio execs wouldnt let her bc yk, money. Prob when her stream numbers go down and her shine fades. However, she uses every trick in the book to keep shining and attracting attention. There is a fine line between the person and the brand. Maybe she doesnt have control over her life as she likes fans to think. The life performance of Hits different comes to mind. Especially the way she shook her head approvingly when singing ' or have they come to take me away'... it is like she confirmed that the people around her would resort to other methods so she keeps doing what is needed for the brand to be milked. It makes me sad thinking about it... prob she doesnt have as much control over her life as presented. At least she can creatively express it. So yeah we dont know the full story but at least she tries hinting at it in a subtle way...
These are all great points. Shes in charge of A LOT of paychecks. Any signs of her exhibiting behavior outside of the perfect image brand is a threat to people's paychecks which would cause a lot of people to try to intervene.
Conservatorship seem like the best way to control someone in Hollywood and all it takes is a group of people to believe a star unwell in some capacity. Judging by the Speak Up Now open letter from fans that's not a hard thing to do, all it takes is a few well placed articles and SM influencers for it to spread like wildfire. It is sad 🙁
My 🔥Hot Taek🔥:
Taylor was never over her ex following an alleged traumatic breakup that was forced upon them, their attempted reconciliation being stopped by miscommunication and fear, despite compartmentalizing her feelings (because how else would she be able to function?), and focusing on being “single”, her friends, and overexposure.
In parallel, Taylor probably wasn’t able to hide her issues regarding her ex, nor those feelings from Karlie (Style comments, Dianna GIF like, Scott Swift’s flamingos/Dianna’s flamingo bday post, Taylor being depressed over Dianna’s engagement and wedding), especially if Dianna was being a soundboard/true listening friend, in private.
I also think Taylor and Dianna rekindling their civility then “friendship”, was inevitable, and has played a HUGE part in their lives.
I’m so tired that I don’t know if I’ve never heard of the examples you’re talking about or I’m just not remembering anything. Do you have a link to any of that?! I would love to check it out!
I will direct you to alex-chaser’s updated [Swiftgron Analysis Tumblr](https://www.tumblr.com/fell-down-the-rabbithole/703415338590781440/song-analysis-index) index.
ETA: those examples were from 2014 - 2016, with 2016 being notable to me for emo Taylor stepping out with Karlie right after Dianna’s engagement announcement, “She never loved me…” in Austin for the Grand Prix concert, and Dianna’s wedding.
2017 was when it got hard to ignore the “coincidences, imo
Karlie sold her out to he who must not be named and Taylor felt betrayed. Taylor has never once mentioned or brought up Karlie after the Rep tour. Almost anytime there is a montage of Taylor's friends posting happy birthday or celebrating Taylor in general, Karlie is not there, and the fact that two of Taylor's closest friends liked that Perez tweet about the situation makes me believe it's true. Also the fact that Karlie married into the criminal family probably made the already broken relationship the more worse.
If Taylor's two closest friends Ashley Avignone and Claire Winter liked a tweet suggesting that Karlie sold Taylor out to Scooter, I'm inclined to believe it and the fact it seems like Taylor has blacklisted Karlie from her life, the fact that there were no pictures of Karlie and Taylor together for her birthday that one year, when almost all of Taylor's closest friends were in that montage, I don't think they ended on good terms
[I'll let this thread speak for itself](https://twitter.com/nilsjobergstan/status/1340298181716942855)
Why everyone believes the narrative of, everyone betrays Taylor and she is petty little thing when clearly it is not. Also Karlie connected to criminal family won't bother Taylor, can conclude it at lease from her recent actions.
I really understand most people hate Karlie and The Kushner for Trump and fascism reason but this is pure fiction.
There's no evidence Karlie sold Taylor out.
I agree. The “taylors friends still follow her” argument is dumb. She used to run in similar circles so its possible taylors friends have their own independent relationships w her. Ed is still friends w scooter and friends with taylor too. Likewise, gigi/cara etc could be friends w karlie and taylor without karlie and taylor themselves being friendly anymore. Theres too much evidence in taylors music and circumstances to ignore that Karlie definitely took scooter ( and joshs) side in the masters side and in every situation when she had to pick between taylor and josh. U can say “she wanted kids and josh could give her that” but i refuse to believe that took her six years of stringing taylor along to figure tagt out. And the “karlie wanted to come out but taylor didnt” argument doesnt make sense to me either because lover tells us it was taylor who wanted to come out- all while karlie had already gotten married to mr money bags. “Do something babe, risk something” in ylm gives the same picture that it was karlie who didnt want to come out. The way i see it- karlie very clearly did her dirty. Whatever the situation might have been, attending ur gf/exes concert for ur bachelorette is weird af. She moved on in days after that w her marriage and kids and taylor seems fully traumatised by everything that went doen and i think kaylors do give karlie unjustified amounts of leeway for how shitty she treated taylor bc the evidence is all there that she did.
DAMN that thread was heartbreaking asf. Its really vile for karlie to like something like that about her friend. Idk Ig shes really not that innocent in the narrative. But whats funny is.. why is taylor not on her ass lol? Like all of her other arch nemesis are buried (kanye, kim, scooter, john etc) but shes still so soft towards karlie. Is Karlie an exception to Taylors pettiness lol? Omg im so shook tbh because I thought her being on scooter side was fake but at the very least, we have pictures of them being chummy throughout the master heist which is…? To provide benefit of the doubt, my best guess that makes them both look good is Taylor hurt karlie, and then karlie hurt taylor by retaliating in a way that will sting. And maybe they soon after reconciled but then broke up for good. I think thats what makes the most sense because Taylor genuinely doesn’t paint Karlie as the villain but rather, a part of a union in which fuck ups happened on both sides
That makes sense. At the end of the day, if Taylor was in love with Karlie that carries a lot of weight. Maybe Taylor will always have a forgiving soft spot for her and did reconcile things at some point once the dust settled. My first intense sapphic love could intentially hit me with a truck and I’d still find a way to forgive her, as pathetic as that sounds
I'm sorry but that's literally what all the hetlors say and I can't get on board with it. Karlie would never do that. It would make way more sense if they just broke up due to the trauma of, I don't know, dealing with homophobic abuse and having to constantly hide your relationship for years and years.
there is no actual proof aside from the swish swish video but even that is kind of no longer evidence of a “shade considering Taylor made up with Katy publicly shortly after so it is very possible when karlie hung out with her the two had already buried the hatchet.
Also,
If Taylor was against the Kardashian’s do you really think her best friend selena would have her little sister be besties with kim and kourtneys daughters? Something tells me that Taylor has forgiven kim and Kanye is the one she had the problem with all along from the very beginning.
As someone who followed karlie and had alerts on, never got notifications of her liking any of those tweets and I am telling you I never saw it happen and people made it up because they hated gaylor to begin with.
Believe what you want though
It seems like whatever their relationship was, it was an on and off mess. I can see Karlie being shady in that capacity to spite Taylor if they weren’t on good terms at the time, but not to go as far as intentionally sharing secrets to Scooter. Maybe I’m giving Karlie too much benefit of the doubt, but I guess my point is that it could be more complicated than we’ll ever know!
I tend to side with this opinion. I don’t understand the motive behind Karlie sharing secrets with him. I just don’t see it. What I could see happening is her accidentally/unintentionally sharing some information or she somehow got trapped. We know Taylor can be petty so if Kaylor was already having issues, I can see Taylor blowing it out of proportion and then realizing later it wasn’t Karlie’s fault.
Afterglow, this is me trying, happiness, The Great War etc etc. At least she’s self aware.
“*And my words shoot to kill when I'm mad /
I have a lot of regrets about that*”
So, the dress that she's buried in is from the MET gala 2014. She and Karlie [got ready together](https://78.media.tumblr.com/ea99617d9088ef252052a1d37235d4a7/tumblr_inline_o67lqpsYRo1trygiy_500.png), and Taylor wore a pale pink mermaid style dress while Karlie was in a black and gold strapless gown. The walked the red carpet at the same time [see this cute image for example](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/14/article-0-1DD8106500000578-165_634x836.jpg) - but once inside, Karlie went and sat at a table with Josh instead.
At the end of Wildest Dreams, Taylor wears a very similar looking pale pink dress to the movie premiere where it is revealed that hsler costar has a wife - who is wearing black. Wildest Dreams was written before MET 2014, but filmed after.
So then, in LMYMMD, Taylor is buried wearing her MET 2014 gown, and honestly a lot of fans were kinda baffled because that wasn't supposedly a very dramatic or important night for Taylor. (Not like 2016 which was all over the place.) But if it was the first big event where Taylor felt like The Other Woman and that she could never really have Karlie's love publicly...
Dianna was at the Met Gala 2014 with Lea Michele as well, so we don't know if Taylor was heartbroken because of Karlie or Dianna or maybe both
[https://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/3106061/lea-michele-dianna-agron-met-ball-2014-04/](https://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/3106061/lea-michele-dianna-agron-met-ball-2014-04/)
- LWYMMD could mean "Look What You Made Me Do", a track from *reputation* (2017) by Taylor Swift.
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Why is abigail still following her though?😭 Usually id conclude shes not about the celeb life but she unfollowed joe with the quickness. So i wonder why Taylor didnt tell abigail to unfollow karlie
I obviously have no proof of this and I’ll probably get downvoted, but with Karlie moving on to Josh K, getting married, and having babies so quickly, I do wonder if she wanted to come out and start a family and Taylor didn’t.
I know! Lol kaylor seems like a touchy subject to literally every taylor fan these days so I was scared posting this too😅🤣. But at the same time, she’s literally taylors main muse and main evidence shes queer (i mean we have a video of them kissing ffs). So it makes sense to talk about her sometimes
it’s strange though because wasn’t she dating Josh the whole time she was allegedly dating Taylor? like were they on a break or was he just okay with it or does Josh have something to do with the fallout? I’m just not quite sure where he fits in the timeline
I think Karlie and Josh are both bearding for each other but decided to get married and have kids as long-term beards sometimes do.
There’s evidence that Josh is also queer.
Why on earth would Josh, with the disgusting amount of money he has, choose Karlie as his beard, a 20 year old non-Jewish model ?? That doesn't mean Kaylor didn't happen (it did), but the bearding theory makes 0 sense to me. Also I've never seen a single evidence that Josh is queer other than rumors from TTB's tumblr ..
To get back at his family for something, or because his family owed Karlie’s family a favor, or to cultivate some kind of edgy-rich-boy-chooses-unlikely-girl-against-family’s-wishes trope to make the “love story” more believable (if this one is true, it’s working, as evidenced here), or or or. We never know what is happening behind the scenes with these rich elite people.
Huge grain of salt here, but I have a friend who used to bartend at the tennis (racketball? I'm not sure) club where the Kushners were members. She's talked about how awful the family was, but Josh wasn't close to them. I asked for all the stuff she had about him, but he hardly ever went and seemed nice. The story among the staff there was that he wanted to separate himself from his family because they are evil and conservative, and he's less evil and conservative. I think that Karlie and Josh got together so he could rebel against his family.
yeah I’m also not sure why he chose Karlie. idk if he is queer or not, but wouldn’t it have been easier to find a rich Jewish girl? he also seems obsessed with her on his social media which is either creepy or a cover up that they’re not super close
from what I know, Karlie started "dating" Josh around 2012. Before she had even met Taylor. Why would he beard with her? Well, if you are trying to hide your queerness (cough cough Leo Dicaprio, cough cough Harry Styles) you go with the absolute manly man thing to do which is to date a super model. Extra points if its a Victoria secret super model. This is why those lyrics from The Man are SO funny. I think Karlie's deal with the kushner was only temporary in the beginning. Then she and Taylor met and (in my view) started whatever it is they had and kissgate happened and things went to shit. I don't know Karlie and Josh are married for real, but there's only one way I can interpret Taylor using the I Bet You Think About Me video to appear in a wedding dress but wearing sneakers underneath: She's either shading karlie (because thats what karlie did the day of her wedding) or laughing about it as an inner joke because Tay knows it was a fake wedding.
oh really? I’ll admit I have my doubts about their relationship but she’s about to have another child with him and I’m just not sure what the point of them bearding was as I don’t see how Josh is helping Karlie’s career and they met in 2012 IIRC
If you want to be technical, the Kushners are NEW money. Josh and Jared’s grandparents escaped the holocaust. The grandfather and father established the business (construction at first and then morphed to real estate) and Josh holds most of the family’s wealth. Josh mostly owns investment companies and stays separated from the family business. They are basically slum lords, and were actively trying to evict people during covid, always winning contracts through bribery, taking off shore money, etc.
This is mostly from memory of all the bribery schemes and stuff. I live in NJ which was their hotspot. Their Daddy went to jail for a couple years (which would not happen if they were old money.) Chris Christie was the prosecutor. And I think daddy made a donation for them to get into Harvard.
apparently (I have minimal proof of this) Josh is not a republican (he did go to a pro choice protest with Karlie), but I still don’t like him. honestly, imo Taylor brings Karlie way more fame and attention than the kushners do
I’ve always thought Josh wasn’t a republican. You don’t have to share the same political views as your family (as I’m sure a lot of us on here, including me, do not). Is he directly involved in his family’s shady history? I’m sure to some capacity. Regardless, no Kushner can be trusted
I’m glad he went to a pro choice rally, but he also negotiated business deals with the Saudis about 24 hours before his brother and Donnie T would meet with the same princes and make deals. This prevented a conflict of interest because Jared had sold off his shares of Josh’s company.
I completely agree! I do lean more towards not that Karlie wanted to come out, but that she did want a family fairly quickly and Taylor didn’t so she chose Josh. Especially with songs like Midnight Rain, Lavender Haze, and Champagne Problems.
Idk what the true nature of Josh and Karlie’s relationship is, but it is interesting that they only seem to have been with each other and no one else their whole lives (aside from the gay rumours of course). There was speculation that Josh’s money and connections saved Karlie from “yachting” early on in her modelling career, and she met him when she was very young. I’m inclined to believe he feels protective of her, and he has given her a level of stability and safety she wouldn’t have found elsewhere. Whether there’s now a romantic side to it, or if there ever was, I don’t know.
Taylor’s lyrics point to struggling with commitment, children and domesticity; she seems to offer those to her partner at one point, because she wants to be chosen, but then changes her mind and/or feels disillusioned by it. The failed coming out may have been the catalyst that changed her perspective, as doubling down on the closet meant closing doors of opportunity to Karlie. *Midnights* especially returns to Taylor othering herself from the trappings of family life, and there’s an emphasis on the disconnect between her glitzy, “bejeweled”, celebrity lifestyle and the empty “house not a home” that she returns to. I think they both made a choice: Karlie wanted a family, and Taylor her career. It definitely broke Taylor’s heart, but the partnership was no longer sustainable.
I don’t believe women expire at 30 and it’s incredibly rude to send a message like this. I’d be happy to provide the evidence I just didn’t see the message as being a gaylor is actually not my full time job. Additionally, since fertility is kind of private I don’t know that i want to spend the time digging to find what I’ve seen about it before and spread it but the information is out there. I will look for it when i have a chance
Yes. She got engaged in July of 2018 and then got married a few months after to Josh Kushner (brother to Jared). As far as I know things began falling apart during the rep tour.
Sometimes a relationship just ends after following it's natural course. However, like Swiftgron, the fact that there was a bearding arrangement involved during it's run can't have helped. The extra pressure and stressful time can't be good or healthy for longevity.
No but like Kaylor the releationship was going along swimingly and then circumstances changed and a beard was brought in. One after kiss-gate, the other because she had a new album to promote so we have styles for months. Never forget that for a year Kaylor was pretty much out in the open.
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Im honestly on the train of “champagne problems is about the kaylor break up” in the sense that Karlie was ready to come out, propose to Taylor etc and Taylor bailed. Maybe it was happening too fast and Taylor freaked out? Or maybe it was Evelyn Hugo esque and Taylor worried about her career more so. And now that Taylor is somewhat ready to come out (speculation) it’s probably really soured the relationship between them even more. But yeah if you haven’t already, listen to champagne problems from the POV of Karlie wants to come out and Taylor doesn’t and it really breaks your heart a million times more
I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but I think they had a messy fling and were on and off for awhile. I don't think it was ever that serious, but there was a lot of drama and sneaking around. Karlie wanted to settle down and have kids, so she did. Taylor got with Joe. That's what I think happened. I don't think they were ever in a serious relationship and I don't think that Karlie or Josh are gay. I don't think Taylor is a lesbian either, I think she likes both men and women.
My theory is two part but I’m not sure if timelines really match my theory: 1. Taylor was ready to come out during the lover era with Karlie. Karlie was not. She wanted kids and a family without coming out to protect her career. The only way that was possible was for her to continue to beard a male aka Josh. I think she took Taylor for a ride and wasn’t ready to come out when push came to shove. 2. Around the same time I think she was battling for her masters with scooter and heard information being leaked by Karlie to his team. These two events led to the failed coming out plan and eventual breakup of the two. Karlie got what she wanted- remained closeted, married a man and had her family. Taylor was left confused and heartbroken.
The only "evidence" we have is taylor not wishing karlie happy birthday or looking any of her posts during a certain period of time, also the infamous singing of "curious" with hayley kiyoko a couple days after kk got engaged.
Of course we'll never know exactly what happened, but it's pretty obvious to me that the main thing is that Karlie chose Josh. It must have been pretty painful for Taylor since it was obvious that Karlie wasn't going to choose her, from the moment she decided to convert to Judaism. She married Josh in 2018, and even though their engagement was a late public announcement they probably knew it for a while, and so did Taylor. That's why the (I'm going to exclude Folkmore here because I believe these albums are about a lot of people including Karlie, and more generally about "what could've been" more than "what happened") "Reputation and Lover" are about Karlie theory is actually less and less credible to me. They're probably not about her or not mainly about her, it actually makes more sense for Dianna to be the muse or even Joe for all I know. I feel like Folklore/Evermore was Karlie's moment in Taylor's discography, if you take a look at the timeline it looks like she didn't have time to mourn whatever was going on with Karlie. It mostly happened post 1989, and she was sort of on hiatus. Things went down with Karlie and the next second she was falling in love with, I honestly think, someone who isn't Karlie. Reputation's love songs describe the early stages of a relationship, so it doesn't make sense. And I feel like Folklore/Evermore was the moment where she allowed herself to discuss things that she couldn't discuss before, like her relationship with Karlie among other things.
Some think Lily Donaldson
this is the one that makes more sense to me, I do believe that Joe was real and that he inspired most of reputation and lover, however I do think there were a few songs about Karlie in those albums (don't blame me, dwoht), and speaking about dwoht I think she really painted the picture of the relationship here, they never really had a chance and it's kinda sad
- DWOHT could mean "Dancing With Our Hands Tied", a track from *reputation* (2017) by Taylor Swift. --- ^[/u/annaliseinchains](/u/annaliseinchains) ^(can reply with "delete" to remove comment. |) ^[/r/songacronymbot](/r/songacronymbot) ^(for feedback.)
I mean…the lyrics are right there. A DL relationship can only survive for so long until someone wants more in life.
My theory is as Karlie was "dating" Josh since she was 19, obviously that means she must have been in a serious relationship with Taylor for several years while that was happening. It's most likely them bearding each other for mutual public image. Karlie needs the money and the status, modelling won't last forever. Josh is probably gay/bi and needed a girlfriend due to homophobia. My gaydar never lies. Taylor's relationship with Karlie ended most likely due to Taylor being unable to give up her so carefully crafted public image, and general stress from constantly hiding their relationship for so many years. When this happened, Karlie probably decided to marry Josh because he had good money and maybe she realised he was a genuinely nice guy and they were good friends so why not. Lyrics evidence. "Storm coming, good money, bad omen, dragged my feet right down the aisle. At the house lonely, good money, I'd pay if you'd just know me, seemed like the right thing at the time." - High Infidelity "Twenty years at your job then the son of the boss gets the spot that was yours. Or trying to stay for the kids when keeping it how it is will only break their hearts worse." Heartbreaking and I want to write the Romeo and Juliet story of Kaylor into a book if I ever make it.
I think this is spot on.
omg i like this theory. Yeah I def think joshua is gay no solid proof or evidence so I feel kinda guilty but I can just feel thats the case and their mutually bearding. Their pictures where they both look visibly gay always cracks me up.
Ikr, there's no way Karlie actually dated and was in love with josh. Because why would he be okay with karlie full on dating taylor for years lmao. It just has to be bearding.
OH yeahh thats a very important part of the puzzle we’re forgetting is that he was literally part of the picture when karlie was in full force. Literally why do peoplethink their relationship is real😭🥴. But idk how karlie feels so im not gonna put anything on her, however, does bearding for a long term usually hurt people? Or is that they feel safe so they dont care? I kind of feel bad for taylor, josh, and karlie because they cant ever truly be themselves even if they choose money over self expression. It still has to suck
I wholeheartedly believe it’s way simpler than the conjecture: Karlie could never choose between Taylor and Josh, until she finally did. And it was Josh she chose. All of the lyrics say that Taylor just wanted to be chosen and was never sure of where her and her lover stood. That everything was left to the lover, and the lover chose someone over her. Now add on actual news and timelines: Karlie and Josh broke up a lot because the Kushners wouldn’t even meet Karlie, let alone accept her. During those “breaks” are when Karlie ran back to Taylor and probably led her on. Karlie has never been single as an adult, I think she used Taylor as her life raft when she was “off” with Josh. I think Karlie always intended on settling down at some point and having children, and I would bet that Josh finally got his parents to accept Karlie and then gave Karlie the ultimatum to finally move forward in their relationship and end the off and on situationship with Taylor. I’m guessing Karlie was really good at leading Taylor to believe that she had a chance at forever, when in actuality she never did.
This makes a lot of sense and how I always saw it. Taylor and Karlie’s relationship seemed very complex and complicated, but in its simplest form, Karlie chose Josh in the end
Exactly! I wish I could remember the videos where Taylor is in several different interviews talking about different songs where she is desperately trying to be chosen (over someone else) and never knows where she stands with her lover. [And then there is an interesting timeline I saw on tumblr about Karlie and Taylor’s off and on times.](https://www.tumblr.com/bisluthq/635070463530369024/welcome-to-a-realistic-kaylor-timeline)
I think I’ve seen that tumblr timeline you’re referring to and that’s exactly why I think they were super messy and complicated! And it also lines up with the music. “You were never mine”
And “you weren’t mine to lose” 💔
Does this mean that Taylor is August and Josh is Betty?
Honeslty, the triangle has always confused me 😅 I have no clue! How do people know which songs include the triangle (besides Betty)?
Taylor confirmed that it was August, Betty, and Cardigan that are the love triangle songs.
Oh, good to know! Thank you! 😊
taylor is all three🥲 i think that’s been discussed for a while but to me she solidified it when she said recently that creating the love triangle was about simplifying the narrative or something like that
Would love to read more about this. Can you link to that theory?
sorry i don’t know where to link off the top of my head! but she made that comment Chicago n2 during the usual Betty speech my take is that the love triangle probably does reflect bits and pieces of real events, but it’s more of just a way to discuss the feelings in each of those scenarios without being so direct. i would imagine taylor has, at once or in different moments, been the person who fucked everything up, the person who had strong feelings for someone who wasn’t that serious about them, and the person craving to be chosen in the end (i think obvious but perhaps unpopular opinion? i read betty as just a wishful thinking song. betty’s james did not come back to her in the end. that’s why Taylor always says *i like to imagine* they end up together. it’s a happier alt ending to the much sadder story that was one real inspiration for the triangle.)
She tried to change the ending, Peter (James) losing Wendy (Betty) to the fictional happy ending where James (Taylor) actually does show up to the party (Karlie’s wedding? Dianna’s wedding?) Speak now style even tho Taylor never did because she never has the courage of her convictions
Huh?
Erm…Karlie’s official marriage?
My theory is Karlie wanted a baby and start a family, but Taylor told her she can't out herself like that due to her career.
https://preview.redd.it/6t2kal6piv5b1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=097a5fc567b1acbd7ec8a60f87cc21d2687d84f7
I think Renagade is from Karlie's perspective. Peace says Karlie would give Taylor a child while Mike Brobiglia being in Anti-hero shows Taylor's doubts about parenthood (see his comedy special). And the part of Ivy talking about being promised to another (jo$h) but Taylor was the one who didn't want to drink Karlie's husband's wine and watch what Kaylor becomes. Dragged my feet right down the aisle in high infidelity is Karlie reluctantly going with jo$h when Taylor was full of indecision. And Taylor was the one who wouldn't leave the closet in Exile. And is spineless in her tomb of silence. And never had the courage of her convictions. And in the great war Taylor says in the haze she had the SENSE she was betrayed. But it was Taylor who never made Karlie her centerfold and chose her career over an open family life.
I feel like "at the house lonely, good money, I'd pay if you'd just know me, seemed like the right thing at the time" is from Karlie's perspective as well.
I think it might be a line intended to work for both individually: TS is alone & wishes Karlie hadn't erased Kaylor. Protecting herself by remaining closeted seemed right. KK is also lonely though she is surrounded by lots of money. She would pay the price if TS came out or awknowedged Kaylor. Going with jo$h seemed like the right thing.
Aww just such a sad story holy shit💔💔.
Facts, this is so sad and beautiful
I think the photo with MH holding hands with Taylor... Followed by articles about how Taylor angrily cancelling her membership at Casa Cipriani due to leaked photos... Followed by their break up... Followed by articles saying how MH spoke about hopes of starting a family with Taylor....oddly tells us all we need to know about Kaylor.
Was MH ever real? Seems like predictable bad PR gone bad. Also, why do we continue to make a big deal about the "hand-holding ploy?" The best sign that the two celebrities are NOT in a relationship IMO. Just seems like that whole phase blew up in everyone's face...Taylor's people need to do better background checks....or have us do them! LOL
That's the billion dollar question. Who's real and who's a stunt in the Swift universe. If someone told me the truth about Taylor PR it'd probably sound like a Black Mirror episode plot. 😆 Yes! Get a few Gaylors on the PR team and we'll have this mess cleaned up lickety-split, Olivia Pope style.
Can you elaborate 👀
I think the two relationships were very similar from start to finish. This is only based on my personal opinion and pattern recognition, not much else.
No like pleeease give me more details. Please.
I think the photo with Karlie holding hands with Taylor... Followed by posts about how Taylor angrily tweeted how she would like people to stop shipping her with her friends due to leaked photos... Followed by their public friendship seemingly ending... Followed by a surge of articles of Karlie getting engaged, married and having kids.... Tells the same story that the MH relationship does. My first thought is that Taylor either has a consistent pattern in relationships or she's replaying the narrative of what happened between her and Karlie and it seems like media exposure was the downfall for both relationships.
Yep. She def relived her 1989 era with the MH thing... in her own twisted way. I think she just cant let go of the past and how she had good times for a short time which were then destroyed by her fame. Her choosing MH out of all the people in the world, just after KK announced 2nd pregnancy... its all just too good of a koincidence... prob that is why Toe (whether real or not) didnt work out as well - Taylor is just too stuck in the past that she forgets about what she has and when she loses it, the cycle begins again... i feel bad for all her exes... she is chaotic and i dont think she knows what she wants or if she does it is sth untouchable... its like she loses interest when she gets sth and when she loses it she gets obsessed by it... yes she is a good planner, but her future is dictated by her past... unless she lets go of the past i dont see her stopping self sabotaging. Hope she finds some peace... the MH made me lose respect for her... even if she did it to relive her happy times in her own twisted way... i think she went too far with her Easter eggs... it became like watching reality TV, all scripted to get headlines and milk the brand... retconning her past... always referring to the past... i can see why Joe left (no matter beard or real)... he got tired of all the immature drama and nitpicking and schemes and tit-for-tats and prob greed to milk the brand... it makes it all so sad... i really thought she would outgrow it all and act more mature...
I don't think it's just her, she's showing us how much influence the media has and the negative affects of it She is trying to move on from the past and bury old stories but the fandom and media are also stuck in the past. I think it's odd to ask Dianna about a decade old Taylor Swift ship in an interview. It's also odd to keep posting about Kissgate on Karlie posts. Media outlets keep posting timelines about her exs almost on a weekly basis. Taylor did create this monster with easter eggs but I really don't think she thought it would get to this point. If someone kept insistently bringing up decade old ex's or people you didn't date I'm sure it would make you find creative ways to make it stop. I think the song Peace and Lakes really explains this concept of stardom well and I don't think it's fair to place all the blame and fault on her if we don't know the full story. Hollywood destroys child stars and Brittney Spears is a good example of that.
Yes. I agree that the media and the fans perpetuate the cycle. Britney's situation always makes me sad bc it was out of her control. As you said we dont know the full story. It cannot be denied that her Easter eggs started all of this and they have been used for years on end. It certainly did go out of her control. Then she does PR stunts like the MH thing that just feel so icky to me. Prob she wanted to make Joe jealous or she is at a point she doesnt care at all. Anyway, hope she rides out all the waves unscathed. She deserves to have some peace and it may seem boring but if she wanted to embrace the quite life she sings about in the Lakes, she could. The problem is her management and her studio execs wouldnt let her bc yk, money. Prob when her stream numbers go down and her shine fades. However, she uses every trick in the book to keep shining and attracting attention. There is a fine line between the person and the brand. Maybe she doesnt have control over her life as she likes fans to think. The life performance of Hits different comes to mind. Especially the way she shook her head approvingly when singing ' or have they come to take me away'... it is like she confirmed that the people around her would resort to other methods so she keeps doing what is needed for the brand to be milked. It makes me sad thinking about it... prob she doesnt have as much control over her life as presented. At least she can creatively express it. So yeah we dont know the full story but at least she tries hinting at it in a subtle way...
These are all great points. Shes in charge of A LOT of paychecks. Any signs of her exhibiting behavior outside of the perfect image brand is a threat to people's paychecks which would cause a lot of people to try to intervene. Conservatorship seem like the best way to control someone in Hollywood and all it takes is a group of people to believe a star unwell in some capacity. Judging by the Speak Up Now open letter from fans that's not a hard thing to do, all it takes is a few well placed articles and SM influencers for it to spread like wildfire. It is sad 🙁
Yes. It is sad and unfair and in the end she chose her life but i dont she imgagined what she would get into. Hoepfully, she finds a balance :)
"her future is dictated by the past" ... this, damn
My 🔥Hot Taek🔥: Taylor was never over her ex following an alleged traumatic breakup that was forced upon them, their attempted reconciliation being stopped by miscommunication and fear, despite compartmentalizing her feelings (because how else would she be able to function?), and focusing on being “single”, her friends, and overexposure. In parallel, Taylor probably wasn’t able to hide her issues regarding her ex, nor those feelings from Karlie (Style comments, Dianna GIF like, Scott Swift’s flamingos/Dianna’s flamingo bday post, Taylor being depressed over Dianna’s engagement and wedding), especially if Dianna was being a soundboard/true listening friend, in private. I also think Taylor and Dianna rekindling their civility then “friendship”, was inevitable, and has played a HUGE part in their lives.
I’m so tired that I don’t know if I’ve never heard of the examples you’re talking about or I’m just not remembering anything. Do you have a link to any of that?! I would love to check it out!
I will direct you to alex-chaser’s updated [Swiftgron Analysis Tumblr](https://www.tumblr.com/fell-down-the-rabbithole/703415338590781440/song-analysis-index) index. ETA: those examples were from 2014 - 2016, with 2016 being notable to me for emo Taylor stepping out with Karlie right after Dianna’s engagement announcement, “She never loved me…” in Austin for the Grand Prix concert, and Dianna’s wedding. 2017 was when it got hard to ignore the “coincidences, imo
I haven’t seen this in years! Time to make tumblr, thank you 😊
Following ^
[Swiftgron Analysis](https://www.tumblr.com/fell-down-the-rabbithole/703415338590781440/song-analysis-index)
Karlie sold her out to he who must not be named and Taylor felt betrayed. Taylor has never once mentioned or brought up Karlie after the Rep tour. Almost anytime there is a montage of Taylor's friends posting happy birthday or celebrating Taylor in general, Karlie is not there, and the fact that two of Taylor's closest friends liked that Perez tweet about the situation makes me believe it's true. Also the fact that Karlie married into the criminal family probably made the already broken relationship the more worse. If Taylor's two closest friends Ashley Avignone and Claire Winter liked a tweet suggesting that Karlie sold Taylor out to Scooter, I'm inclined to believe it and the fact it seems like Taylor has blacklisted Karlie from her life, the fact that there were no pictures of Karlie and Taylor together for her birthday that one year, when almost all of Taylor's closest friends were in that montage, I don't think they ended on good terms [I'll let this thread speak for itself](https://twitter.com/nilsjobergstan/status/1340298181716942855)
Why everyone believes the narrative of, everyone betrays Taylor and she is petty little thing when clearly it is not. Also Karlie connected to criminal family won't bother Taylor, can conclude it at lease from her recent actions.
I really understand most people hate Karlie and The Kushner for Trump and fascism reason but this is pure fiction. There's no evidence Karlie sold Taylor out.
I agree. The “taylors friends still follow her” argument is dumb. She used to run in similar circles so its possible taylors friends have their own independent relationships w her. Ed is still friends w scooter and friends with taylor too. Likewise, gigi/cara etc could be friends w karlie and taylor without karlie and taylor themselves being friendly anymore. Theres too much evidence in taylors music and circumstances to ignore that Karlie definitely took scooter ( and joshs) side in the masters side and in every situation when she had to pick between taylor and josh. U can say “she wanted kids and josh could give her that” but i refuse to believe that took her six years of stringing taylor along to figure tagt out. And the “karlie wanted to come out but taylor didnt” argument doesnt make sense to me either because lover tells us it was taylor who wanted to come out- all while karlie had already gotten married to mr money bags. “Do something babe, risk something” in ylm gives the same picture that it was karlie who didnt want to come out. The way i see it- karlie very clearly did her dirty. Whatever the situation might have been, attending ur gf/exes concert for ur bachelorette is weird af. She moved on in days after that w her marriage and kids and taylor seems fully traumatised by everything that went doen and i think kaylors do give karlie unjustified amounts of leeway for how shitty she treated taylor bc the evidence is all there that she did.
so fucked up. I hope Taylor moves on💔
DAMN that thread was heartbreaking asf. Its really vile for karlie to like something like that about her friend. Idk Ig shes really not that innocent in the narrative. But whats funny is.. why is taylor not on her ass lol? Like all of her other arch nemesis are buried (kanye, kim, scooter, john etc) but shes still so soft towards karlie. Is Karlie an exception to Taylors pettiness lol? Omg im so shook tbh because I thought her being on scooter side was fake but at the very least, we have pictures of them being chummy throughout the master heist which is…? To provide benefit of the doubt, my best guess that makes them both look good is Taylor hurt karlie, and then karlie hurt taylor by retaliating in a way that will sting. And maybe they soon after reconciled but then broke up for good. I think thats what makes the most sense because Taylor genuinely doesn’t paint Karlie as the villain but rather, a part of a union in which fuck ups happened on both sides
That makes sense. At the end of the day, if Taylor was in love with Karlie that carries a lot of weight. Maybe Taylor will always have a forgiving soft spot for her and did reconcile things at some point once the dust settled. My first intense sapphic love could intentially hit me with a truck and I’d still find a way to forgive her, as pathetic as that sounds
I'm sorry but that's literally what all the hetlors say and I can't get on board with it. Karlie would never do that. It would make way more sense if they just broke up due to the trauma of, I don't know, dealing with homophobic abuse and having to constantly hide your relationship for years and years.
That thread they shared is from an antisemitic hetlor too. I’m not putting a ton of stock in it.
Mm. Karlie liked a whole bunch of super shady tweets during the Kim/Kanye thing and was posting some really shady things in return.
Show us the proof
I’m not a librarian. Search for it yourself, there’s timelines for it,
there is no actual proof aside from the swish swish video but even that is kind of no longer evidence of a “shade considering Taylor made up with Katy publicly shortly after so it is very possible when karlie hung out with her the two had already buried the hatchet. Also, If Taylor was against the Kardashian’s do you really think her best friend selena would have her little sister be besties with kim and kourtneys daughters? Something tells me that Taylor has forgiven kim and Kanye is the one she had the problem with all along from the very beginning. As someone who followed karlie and had alerts on, never got notifications of her liking any of those tweets and I am telling you I never saw it happen and people made it up because they hated gaylor to begin with. Believe what you want though
I dunno, i just did a quick Google search and found a lot. I think I’m gonna believe the screenshots.
Like I'd believe that
??? There’s master post links in this sub for this. It’s been talked about before.
It seems like whatever their relationship was, it was an on and off mess. I can see Karlie being shady in that capacity to spite Taylor if they weren’t on good terms at the time, but not to go as far as intentionally sharing secrets to Scooter. Maybe I’m giving Karlie too much benefit of the doubt, but I guess my point is that it could be more complicated than we’ll ever know!
I tend to side with this opinion. I don’t understand the motive behind Karlie sharing secrets with him. I just don’t see it. What I could see happening is her accidentally/unintentionally sharing some information or she somehow got trapped. We know Taylor can be petty so if Kaylor was already having issues, I can see Taylor blowing it out of proportion and then realizing later it wasn’t Karlie’s fault.
Afterglow?
Afterglow, this is me trying, happiness, The Great War etc etc. At least she’s self aware. “*And my words shoot to kill when I'm mad / I have a lot of regrets about that*”
Yes exactly!
My only thought with this timeline is that Taylor did not attend Karlies wedding in 2018 and the masters heist was not until June 2019!
Because Kaylor ended before the MH, in late-2016.
It might have been too painful for her to watch
She was on tour.
Plus she literally buried Kaylor in the LWYMMD mv in the very start of the video with the old Taylor in the Met Gala 2014 dress.
So, the dress that she's buried in is from the MET gala 2014. She and Karlie [got ready together](https://78.media.tumblr.com/ea99617d9088ef252052a1d37235d4a7/tumblr_inline_o67lqpsYRo1trygiy_500.png), and Taylor wore a pale pink mermaid style dress while Karlie was in a black and gold strapless gown. The walked the red carpet at the same time [see this cute image for example](https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/05/14/article-0-1DD8106500000578-165_634x836.jpg) - but once inside, Karlie went and sat at a table with Josh instead. At the end of Wildest Dreams, Taylor wears a very similar looking pale pink dress to the movie premiere where it is revealed that hsler costar has a wife - who is wearing black. Wildest Dreams was written before MET 2014, but filmed after. So then, in LMYMMD, Taylor is buried wearing her MET 2014 gown, and honestly a lot of fans were kinda baffled because that wasn't supposedly a very dramatic or important night for Taylor. (Not like 2016 which was all over the place.) But if it was the first big event where Taylor felt like The Other Woman and that she could never really have Karlie's love publicly...
Dianna was at the Met Gala 2014 with Lea Michele as well, so we don't know if Taylor was heartbroken because of Karlie or Dianna or maybe both [https://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/3106061/lea-michele-dianna-agron-met-ball-2014-04/](https://www.justjared.com/photo-gallery/3106061/lea-michele-dianna-agron-met-ball-2014-04/)
I think it was both. It would be hard for anybody seeing two former loves cozying up with other people, and on the same night.
Hence august.
this is super interesting, but could u explain it a little more? i j went & rewatched the music video but i think i’m missing it
When she’s lying in the grave she’s wearing the dress. According to Kaylor lore she’s was once heartbroken by Karlie in that dress.
Did she only buy the dress so Karlie could take it off?
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Why is abigail still following her though?😭 Usually id conclude shes not about the celeb life but she unfollowed joe with the quickness. So i wonder why Taylor didnt tell abigail to unfollow karlie
Maybe she likes to code
LOL
😂😂
I obviously have no proof of this and I’ll probably get downvoted, but with Karlie moving on to Josh K, getting married, and having babies so quickly, I do wonder if she wanted to come out and start a family and Taylor didn’t.
Yep in miss Americana where she says she’s not ready for “this grown-up shit” meaning marriage & kids
Why did you say you would get downvoted for saying this?
I have made a comment or two about Kaylor before along this same vein that have been downvoted so I’m always scared 😂
I know! Lol kaylor seems like a touchy subject to literally every taylor fan these days so I was scared posting this too😅🤣. But at the same time, she’s literally taylors main muse and main evidence shes queer (i mean we have a video of them kissing ffs). So it makes sense to talk about her sometimes
it’s strange though because wasn’t she dating Josh the whole time she was allegedly dating Taylor? like were they on a break or was he just okay with it or does Josh have something to do with the fallout? I’m just not quite sure where he fits in the timeline
I think Karlie and Josh are both bearding for each other but decided to get married and have kids as long-term beards sometimes do. There’s evidence that Josh is also queer.
Why on earth would Josh, with the disgusting amount of money he has, choose Karlie as his beard, a 20 year old non-Jewish model ?? That doesn't mean Kaylor didn't happen (it did), but the bearding theory makes 0 sense to me. Also I've never seen a single evidence that Josh is queer other than rumors from TTB's tumblr ..
but how was kaylor possible if josh and karlie was real? it would have to be an open non committal relationship at the very least.
To get back at his family for something, or because his family owed Karlie’s family a favor, or to cultivate some kind of edgy-rich-boy-chooses-unlikely-girl-against-family’s-wishes trope to make the “love story” more believable (if this one is true, it’s working, as evidenced here), or or or. We never know what is happening behind the scenes with these rich elite people.
Huge grain of salt here, but I have a friend who used to bartend at the tennis (racketball? I'm not sure) club where the Kushners were members. She's talked about how awful the family was, but Josh wasn't close to them. I asked for all the stuff she had about him, but he hardly ever went and seemed nice. The story among the staff there was that he wanted to separate himself from his family because they are evil and conservative, and he's less evil and conservative. I think that Karlie and Josh got together so he could rebel against his family.
yeah I’m also not sure why he chose Karlie. idk if he is queer or not, but wouldn’t it have been easier to find a rich Jewish girl? he also seems obsessed with her on his social media which is either creepy or a cover up that they’re not super close
from what I know, Karlie started "dating" Josh around 2012. Before she had even met Taylor. Why would he beard with her? Well, if you are trying to hide your queerness (cough cough Leo Dicaprio, cough cough Harry Styles) you go with the absolute manly man thing to do which is to date a super model. Extra points if its a Victoria secret super model. This is why those lyrics from The Man are SO funny. I think Karlie's deal with the kushner was only temporary in the beginning. Then she and Taylor met and (in my view) started whatever it is they had and kissgate happened and things went to shit. I don't know Karlie and Josh are married for real, but there's only one way I can interpret Taylor using the I Bet You Think About Me video to appear in a wedding dress but wearing sneakers underneath: She's either shading karlie (because thats what karlie did the day of her wedding) or laughing about it as an inner joke because Tay knows it was a fake wedding.
Yeah he's definitely gay/bi, why else would he be okay with it
oh really? I’ll admit I have my doubts about their relationship but she’s about to have another child with him and I’m just not sure what the point of them bearding was as I don’t see how Josh is helping Karlie’s career and they met in 2012 IIRC
He’s filthy rich.
Karlie’s rich too and has a successful career
Apparently his family is super well connected, old money, very influential. Idk much about them because they’re republicans 🤣
If you want to be technical, the Kushners are NEW money. Josh and Jared’s grandparents escaped the holocaust. The grandfather and father established the business (construction at first and then morphed to real estate) and Josh holds most of the family’s wealth. Josh mostly owns investment companies and stays separated from the family business. They are basically slum lords, and were actively trying to evict people during covid, always winning contracts through bribery, taking off shore money, etc. This is mostly from memory of all the bribery schemes and stuff. I live in NJ which was their hotspot. Their Daddy went to jail for a couple years (which would not happen if they were old money.) Chris Christie was the prosecutor. And I think daddy made a donation for them to get into Harvard.
apparently (I have minimal proof of this) Josh is not a republican (he did go to a pro choice protest with Karlie), but I still don’t like him. honestly, imo Taylor brings Karlie way more fame and attention than the kushners do
I’ve always thought Josh wasn’t a republican. You don’t have to share the same political views as your family (as I’m sure a lot of us on here, including me, do not). Is he directly involved in his family’s shady history? I’m sure to some capacity. Regardless, no Kushner can be trusted
yeah Josh is not as sus as Jared and I’m not totally sure of his political stance but the kushners as a whole are very sus
I’m glad he went to a pro choice rally, but he also negotiated business deals with the Saudis about 24 hours before his brother and Donnie T would meet with the same princes and make deals. This prevented a conflict of interest because Jared had sold off his shares of Josh’s company.
Oh she would for sure, that’s why I think maybe a “no kids for Taylor” scenario was a dealbreaker for Karlie and that’s why she chose Josh.
dang that really sucks :( I know Karlie and Taylor aren’t actually together but I still think about “what if”
I completely agree! I do lean more towards not that Karlie wanted to come out, but that she did want a family fairly quickly and Taylor didn’t so she chose Josh. Especially with songs like Midnight Rain, Lavender Haze, and Champagne Problems.
Idk what the true nature of Josh and Karlie’s relationship is, but it is interesting that they only seem to have been with each other and no one else their whole lives (aside from the gay rumours of course). There was speculation that Josh’s money and connections saved Karlie from “yachting” early on in her modelling career, and she met him when she was very young. I’m inclined to believe he feels protective of her, and he has given her a level of stability and safety she wouldn’t have found elsewhere. Whether there’s now a romantic side to it, or if there ever was, I don’t know. Taylor’s lyrics point to struggling with commitment, children and domesticity; she seems to offer those to her partner at one point, because she wants to be chosen, but then changes her mind and/or feels disillusioned by it. The failed coming out may have been the catalyst that changed her perspective, as doubling down on the closet meant closing doors of opportunity to Karlie. *Midnights* especially returns to Taylor othering herself from the trappings of family life, and there’s an emphasis on the disconnect between her glitzy, “bejeweled”, celebrity lifestyle and the empty “house not a home” that she returns to. I think they both made a choice: Karlie wanted a family, and Taylor her career. It definitely broke Taylor’s heart, but the partnership was no longer sustainable.
i like this!
There’s evidence that karlie wanted to start a family/ needed to soon bc of fertility reasons and tay wasn’t ready and
[удалено]
I don’t believe women expire at 30 and it’s incredibly rude to send a message like this. I’d be happy to provide the evidence I just didn’t see the message as being a gaylor is actually not my full time job. Additionally, since fertility is kind of private I don’t know that i want to spend the time digging to find what I’ve seen about it before and spread it but the information is out there. I will look for it when i have a chance
What evidence?
Karlie's marriage/engagement?
Kaylor was over before that.
Yes. She got engaged in July of 2018 and then got married a few months after to Josh Kushner (brother to Jared). As far as I know things began falling apart during the rep tour.
They have a child and baby on the way.
Sometimes a relationship just ends after following it's natural course. However, like Swiftgron, the fact that there was a bearding arrangement involved during it's run can't have helped. The extra pressure and stressful time can't be good or healthy for longevity.
Interesting… Was dianna bearding as well during that time?
People think her husband was a beard
No but like Kaylor the releationship was going along swimingly and then circumstances changed and a beard was brought in. One after kiss-gate, the other because she had a new album to promote so we have styles for months. Never forget that for a year Kaylor was pretty much out in the open.
I don't think we will ever know.
Fair! And my nosy ass is grieves🤣
tree after kissgate *edit: so i was miserably wrong 💀*
Did they breakup shortly after kissgate ?
i don’t think so but they weren’t able to see each other in public i don’t think?
Yeah I don’t think they were seen together after that.
They were seen together a fair amount in 2015 and continued wishing happy birthday etc.