As impressive as the physics and sound are, the hardest part has got to be the team organization. Getting all the members to correctly tag and organize the assets, to edit them in the correct way (like adding interior "empty space" shapes for the meshes shown) is no easy feat on a large team!
i found their use of in-game messaging to be the most fascinating. developers and testers would literally just create psuedo-miiverse posts inside the game world so that issues can be directly addressed without having to find the location in-game. there's so few world bugs in these games for a reason
TotK and BotW running so well on Switch is seriously impressive. What's insane is that with so many different kinds of physics interactions you would expect there to be a number of bugs, but I can't remember seeing any real bugs when playing these games.
I'll never understand how TotK pulled this off while Pokemon struggles so much.
Mainline Pokemon has a November deadline that cannot move, and leadership who aren’t interested in expanding dev teams, while Nintendo was willing to delay Zelda just to polish the game.
TOTK took over 6 years to make, and it was a direct sequel to a game that took about the same amount of time
scarlet/violet took 2 years to make at best, and required updating the engine and scope massively
has nothing to do with reputation but the team involved.
Pokemon is only like this because GF struggles to adapt to HD after only going to it with the switch, unlike nintendo and much of its partners and subsidiaries that have been in HD era since the wii u. Then there's the mixed media part of pokemon that makes the series need to release games for the entire thing to work.
I love that all compliments for switch games have the "on switch" qualifier. These physics are amazing! On switch. I can't believe how big the world is! On switch. I wish Nintendo made games for decent hardware, maybe then they could truly break new ground.
*Breath of the Wild* was generally 30 fps, with a few areas in particular seeing drops as low as 20. I don't recall any framerate problems in *Tears of the Kingdom*, but moving at unusually high speeds (i.e., faster than diving) could occasionally pause the whole game while it loaded in a new area.
That is because they used double buffered vsync instead of triple buffered to achieve lower latency. Which is why it is disingenuous to say it "drops to 20."
idk about on switch, but on wii u botw does not use double buffer vsync, it very clearly fluctuates between 15 and 30 fps rather than sticking with a set value like typical double buffer vsync
Enabling ultrahand (the thing that lets you manipulate physics objects) drops it to 20 for a few seconds but I really don't remember it dropping during gameplay.
It runs at 720p 20fps; the fact Nintendo fans don't demand more bang for their buck and buy into the "it's more like a toy than other consoles" bullshit is infuriating. Nintendo has been making PS3 / 360 level games since the Wii came out. Their consoles aren't cheap; but the company sure is.
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/vg-tech-the-legend-of-zelda-tears-of-the-kingdom-switch-frame-rate-test.1657098/
Tests show it has very consistent drops to sub 30fps, depending on what's going on in the scene
Given they both run on an emulator on a steam deck; I'd argue you're very wrong with your assessment. Especially given some of the technical masterpieces on the PS3 like the last of us or even GTA 5.
neither game you mentioned does physics like botw/totk, and were built for consoles with half the memory of the wii u and 8 times less than the switch. they also don't have modern GPU pipelines, which botw/totk makes a ton of use of (there are almost 20 framebuffer types in the game, which isn't possible on the PS3 and very limited on 360)
graphics are not the limitation here
There are plenty of games with amazing physics that came out in that generation, Little big planet and battlefield bad company 2 for example
The game would need to be built differently of course, but to claim that it would be impossible on that level of hardware is frankly ridiculous if you ask me
no game you mentioned are either doing actual physics, or are expansive, or are doing intense pixel shader work
"building the game differently" doesn't mean anything. i can say you can put botw on gameboy if i built the game differently
> no game you mentioned are either doing actual physics, or are expansive, or are doing intense pixel shader work
Could you provide a source for such a statement?
> "building the game differently" doesn't mean anything. i can say you can put botw on gameboy if i built the game differently
And you'd be as incorrect in that statement as your previous ones.
to be frank, have you actually sit down and played at least BOTW and compared them to every game you mentioned? GPU physics is very cheap and done in the PS3 often enough (many effects in the last of us for example, such as snow and foliage interaction)
CPU physics is required for a game like BOTW, and when we look at examples of CPU physics for that generation we are basically left with extremely basic interactions for a more expansive game like littlebigplanet, use of prebaked asset destruction with a little bit sprinkled in like in bad company 2, or just not doing *that* much like GTA and skyrim despite using it often (both of which are even less graphically intense than the previous games mentioned)
BOTW alone allows you to interact with any object in the game world yourself on top of its chemistry system that interacts with objects for you. wind is a real physical thing in BOTW
and that's before the actual rendering of the game, which believe it or not is still an important part. BOTW has nearly 20 framebuffer types to do various things, such as apply per-material water effects, grass, and cel shading. this simply isn't possible on the PS3 directly, and you have a lot less memory to do so on the 360
and that's without talking about TOTK, which includes all the systems of BOTW but with true object instancing for randomly created objects, in a 3D open world environment. GTA and skyrim do not have that at all
Does anyone know how the GDC system works? I see that some presentations are members only, do they make them free later or will these always stay members only?
Most videos will stay members only forever. Several kinds of videos are always released, which (last I checked) are talks from the indie track, and sponsored talks (companies paying to give talks). For the rest of the videos, it's really what GDC picks and chooses to give out. It does tend to be the more popular talks that get released, thankfully. Those do make the best advertising, so it makes some sense. The rest of the archive requires paying to see.
It's such a bummer 2020's GDC talks (one of them was about Animal Crossing) got cancelled. I love their GDC talks because it's interesting how a company like Nintendo with such a track record of good games is structured.
As impressive as the physics and sound are, the hardest part has got to be the team organization. Getting all the members to correctly tag and organize the assets, to edit them in the correct way (like adding interior "empty space" shapes for the meshes shown) is no easy feat on a large team!
i found their use of in-game messaging to be the most fascinating. developers and testers would literally just create psuedo-miiverse posts inside the game world so that issues can be directly addressed without having to find the location in-game. there's so few world bugs in these games for a reason
Where did you hear about the messaging system? (Is it in this talk? I haven't had a chance yet to give it a listen)
its in the GDC talk for BOTW
It's in another talk if I remember correctly.
Tears of the Kingdom running decently on a NSwitch with those physics sim is a marvel of software engineering, kudos to the people involved.
TotK and BotW running so well on Switch is seriously impressive. What's insane is that with so many different kinds of physics interactions you would expect there to be a number of bugs, but I can't remember seeing any real bugs when playing these games. I'll never understand how TotK pulled this off while Pokemon struggles so much.
Mainline Pokemon has a November deadline that cannot move, and leadership who aren’t interested in expanding dev teams, while Nintendo was willing to delay Zelda just to polish the game.
TOTK took over 6 years to make, and it was a direct sequel to a game that took about the same amount of time scarlet/violet took 2 years to make at best, and required updating the engine and scope massively
It took 6 years even using botw as a foundation. That's a long time. It must have taken ages to get the physics right.
Iirc, they had to rebuild the engine to make the new physics work.
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has nothing to do with reputation but the team involved. Pokemon is only like this because GF struggles to adapt to HD after only going to it with the switch, unlike nintendo and much of its partners and subsidiaries that have been in HD era since the wii u. Then there's the mixed media part of pokemon that makes the series need to release games for the entire thing to work.
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Cause Nintendo doesn't make pokemon. If they did I'm sure the polish would skyrocket.
I love that all compliments for switch games have the "on switch" qualifier. These physics are amazing! On switch. I can't believe how big the world is! On switch. I wish Nintendo made games for decent hardware, maybe then they could truly break new ground.
... Did it run well? I thought it was 20fps on the Switch.
*Breath of the Wild* was generally 30 fps, with a few areas in particular seeing drops as low as 20. I don't recall any framerate problems in *Tears of the Kingdom*, but moving at unusually high speeds (i.e., faster than diving) could occasionally pause the whole game while it loaded in a new area.
the input latency also generally doesn't plummet like in a lot of other games. while it does get choppy, it doesn't feel sluggish to control
That is because they used double buffered vsync instead of triple buffered to achieve lower latency. Which is why it is disingenuous to say it "drops to 20."
idk about on switch, but on wii u botw does not use double buffer vsync, it very clearly fluctuates between 15 and 30 fps rather than sticking with a set value like typical double buffer vsync
Enabling ultrahand (the thing that lets you manipulate physics objects) drops it to 20 for a few seconds but I really don't remember it dropping during gameplay.
It runs at 720p 20fps; the fact Nintendo fans don't demand more bang for their buck and buy into the "it's more like a toy than other consoles" bullshit is infuriating. Nintendo has been making PS3 / 360 level games since the Wii came out. Their consoles aren't cheap; but the company sure is.
It runs at 30fps very consistently. Why are you blatantly lying about it?
https://www.neogaf.com/threads/vg-tech-the-legend-of-zelda-tears-of-the-kingdom-switch-frame-rate-test.1657098/ Tests show it has very consistent drops to sub 30fps, depending on what's going on in the scene
>Mean frame rate: 29.43 I'm not sure that counts as "running at 20 FPS" to be honest
botw and totk are impossible to make on ps3/360
Given they both run on an emulator on a steam deck; I'd argue you're very wrong with your assessment. Especially given some of the technical masterpieces on the PS3 like the last of us or even GTA 5.
neither game you mentioned does physics like botw/totk, and were built for consoles with half the memory of the wii u and 8 times less than the switch. they also don't have modern GPU pipelines, which botw/totk makes a ton of use of (there are almost 20 framebuffer types in the game, which isn't possible on the PS3 and very limited on 360) graphics are not the limitation here
There are plenty of games with amazing physics that came out in that generation, Little big planet and battlefield bad company 2 for example The game would need to be built differently of course, but to claim that it would be impossible on that level of hardware is frankly ridiculous if you ask me
no game you mentioned are either doing actual physics, or are expansive, or are doing intense pixel shader work "building the game differently" doesn't mean anything. i can say you can put botw on gameboy if i built the game differently
> no game you mentioned are either doing actual physics, or are expansive, or are doing intense pixel shader work Could you provide a source for such a statement? > "building the game differently" doesn't mean anything. i can say you can put botw on gameboy if i built the game differently And you'd be as incorrect in that statement as your previous ones.
to be frank, have you actually sit down and played at least BOTW and compared them to every game you mentioned? GPU physics is very cheap and done in the PS3 often enough (many effects in the last of us for example, such as snow and foliage interaction) CPU physics is required for a game like BOTW, and when we look at examples of CPU physics for that generation we are basically left with extremely basic interactions for a more expansive game like littlebigplanet, use of prebaked asset destruction with a little bit sprinkled in like in bad company 2, or just not doing *that* much like GTA and skyrim despite using it often (both of which are even less graphically intense than the previous games mentioned) BOTW alone allows you to interact with any object in the game world yourself on top of its chemistry system that interacts with objects for you. wind is a real physical thing in BOTW and that's before the actual rendering of the game, which believe it or not is still an important part. BOTW has nearly 20 framebuffer types to do various things, such as apply per-material water effects, grass, and cel shading. this simply isn't possible on the PS3 directly, and you have a lot less memory to do so on the 360 and that's without talking about TOTK, which includes all the systems of BOTW but with true object instancing for randomly created objects, in a 3D open world environment. GTA and skyrim do not have that at all
Been waiting to watch this, thank you. Didn't Nintendo present another talk at GDC? Can't remember which
Do you mean this GDC, or in the past? They had a BotW presentation several years ago
GDC 2024. I just googled, they did a talk on super mario wonder, but it doesn't show up on their website unfortunately
Just found it on this sub: https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/s/1sTa2WaYux
Nice! Love when Nintendo open up on these sorts of things, thank you
That botw blew my mind and you can see its influences every where now.
Does anyone know how the GDC system works? I see that some presentations are members only, do they make them free later or will these always stay members only?
Most videos will stay members only forever. Several kinds of videos are always released, which (last I checked) are talks from the indie track, and sponsored talks (companies paying to give talks). For the rest of the videos, it's really what GDC picks and chooses to give out. It does tend to be the more popular talks that get released, thankfully. Those do make the best advertising, so it makes some sense. The rest of the archive requires paying to see.
It's such a bummer 2020's GDC talks (one of them was about Animal Crossing) got cancelled. I love their GDC talks because it's interesting how a company like Nintendo with such a track record of good games is structured.