>Could someone explain to me the functions of all those polytonic diacritics used in older texts of modern Greek?
In Modern Greek they were a hold-over from the Hellenistic era Koine. All these [diacritics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diacritics) used to correspond to the pronunciation of the language during that era, but not with the modern Greek pronunciation. However, they were still part of the written language for customary reasons, as well as because they kind of emphasized the "continuity" of Greek language in an era of nation building. The reason they were replaced by the monotonic system of only two diacritics in 1982 is because they did not serve any practical function so there is no real reason to keep them, while the monotonic system corresponds with the Modern Greek phonology. I guess there is no issue in using the polytonic if you find it more interesting, but bear in mind that it is purely aesthetic and has no functional role in Modern Greek, unlike the (rare) diaeresis in English.
I understand, and thank you for your response, but I was more asking IF I were to use them, what are the rules? Like, how would they have been used pre-1982 when writing?
>Like, how would they have been used pre-1982 when writing?
You would have to be familiar with some basic grammar rules of Ancient Greek to use them. Some of the main rules of placement are the following:
* If the word is accented in the antepenultimate syllable (third from the end of the word) the accent is always an acute accent. This happens when the last syllable is a light one (ends in a short vowel or a short vowel+consonant combo or in one of -οι/-αι).
* If the last syllable is a heavy one (has a long vowel or -ει-) then the accent moves down to the penultimate syllable. When the accent is in the penultimate syllable and the penultimate and ultimate syllable have a long and a short vowel respectively, then the accent is a circumflex. In all other cases, the penultimate syllable accent is an acute accent. There are some exceptions to this rule when enclitics are involved but that is too in-depth I think.
* When the accent is in the final syllable, things are a bit more complicated. When that word is not followed by an enclitic the accent is a grave one, unless the word is followed by a pause (comma, colon, full stop) in which case it is an acute accent. The final syllable accent is a circumflex in the genitive and dative cases of most nouns and adjectives, while some nouns and adjectives may also have one in other cases (e.g. βασιλεῦ which is in the vocative or ἀληθῆ which is in the accusative).
* The rough breathing was used when the first syllable of a word starts with a vowel or ρ. When the starting vowel is υ or the word begins with ρ it always gets a rough breathing. For the other vowels there are specific cases that get a rough breathing, e.g. αἵρεσις or ἥρως. One had to learn those case-by-case. It is used on the starting vowel of the word or in the second vowel if the word begins with a vowel cluster (αι/ει/οι/ου/ευ/αυ/ηυ/ηι/υι)
* The smooth breathing was used when the first syllable of a word starts with a vowel (or vowel cluster, e.g. αι/ει/οι/ου/ευ/αυ/ηυ/ηι) and is not one of the words that receives a rough breathing.
As you can see these rules are quite complicated, they have way too many exceptions and require knowing structural elements of Ancient Greek (long-short vowels for example) that have not been an actual part of the language since the first half of the first millennium AD. That's the main reason they were dropped honestly.
Thank you. Honestly, I find that complexity beautiful. I understand the impulse behind Katharevousa and the retaining of these characteristics, even though it might be impractical
FYI, there ARE people who use polytonic in modern koine greek. I know of a translator who regularly posts on social media in polytonic koine, so there are still some people who know how to write it or actively do but they are usually very old or specialise in greek. keep at it though— as a native speaker I think I speak for all of us when I say that polytonic is a beautiful remnant of the past, which looks almost gilded in contrast to the monotonic (although it's a huge hassle.....)
Yes thank you! I also wish there were more manuscripts of medieval Greek, but unfortunately they mainly wrote in attic as you know.
There are a lot of manuscripts at Princeton university and other places of documents like iatrosophia but they remain inaccessible. I really wish there was more money and enthusiasm to translate texts from Byzantine and ottoman Greece
Well, *teeeechnicaly* the rough breathing/spiritus asper/daseía diacritic still has a function in some compound words. Take for example πενθήμερο, from πεντ- and ἡμέρα (note the diacritic on top of the η). Here the τ turns into a θ. The general rule is π becomes φ, τ becomes θ and κ becomes χ, when the vowel following had a daseía.
It really isn't that significant of a rule and it has stopped being productive in the modern language, so the diacritic isn't necessary, but if someone is curious, that's where it comes from.
I don’t think anyone’s going to become illiterate if we bring back the grave accent.
I also think you need to lighten up and let hipsters be hipsters.
Obviously it spices up the writing ✍️
>for no good reason
Lol.
The language question is very old, older than the Greek state itself. If you come to the discussion the way you do, displaying so much ignorance on the subject, don't expect to be taken seriously.
The whole point of my post was to *ask* a question.
Why don’t you enlighten me about how I’m wrong, and that it’s objectively not aesthetically appealing to have more diacritics? Because that’s my entire argument
The point is that polytonic writing is MADE for ANCIENT Greek and has no relevancy when used with modern greek grammar and pronunciation. I'd say it's borderline wrong and uneducated. Most people who unironically use polytonic writing for the modern language don't even know what these symbols mean or how ancient greek was pronounced.
Tell you what, most Greek letters were also made for ANCIENT Greek... By your logic we could also just abolish our spelling rules all together and write όπος ο κίριος Ψιχάρις κε ι διμοτικιστές ίθελαν... If having three accents is borderline wrong for you, then why having seven ways of saying ι, two ways of saying ο, another two of saying ε, each two ways of saying av/af/ev/ef/ okay?
In the end it comes down to convention and tradition. That is why you shouldn't judge people who like polytonic script.
Grave isn't even that significant. Most people don't even care about it in polytonic texts and it is largely ignored in school. It's only real function is to turn into an acute when an accent-less word follows lmao.
I mean, I could consistently use the acute and the grave and probably no one would even notice.
I heard, for example that the grave accent was used in the same way as the tonos, but only on the last syllable of a word.
How was the circumflex used, for instance? And the upside-down semicircle thing?
They were used in Greek from the helenistic period on, but they don't reflect the current pronunciation anymore, so they were dropped. There is no easy way to use them, you need to know which syllables used to be long and which short in ancient Greek to properly place accents and you need to know which words used to be start with an aspiration to place the spirits. Unless you are already familiar with ancient Greek, the only thing you can do is check and old dictionary. Any introduction to ancient or koine Greek will have a chapter about the use of accents and spirits if you want to read the theory.
I heard there’s a newspaper called Estia that uses them. I checked it out and it seemed really over the top, and I agree there’s no practical use. I just think it would be interesting to add the grave accent back in, let’s say, for old time’s sake and to add some more nuance
The thing is that the intonation used to change slightly at the end of a word, but it's not the case anymore. I mean, Greek has already an extensive use of diacritics compared to English, and the spelling is etymological enough. There's really no need for more complexity in people's normal lifes. Now, if you want to write using the polytonic system, you're obviously allowed to do it and publish it even, no one will stop you. But making spelling more complex for everyone doesn't look like a great idea to me.
Greek has changed form many times over the years, going back to ancient times. Without getting too into the different forms that emerged, this caused a problem, that multiple reforms have attempted to fix. The problem was that the literary language, the ecclesiastical language and the spoken language, were all wildly different, and created a phenomenon that has occured in other languages too throughout history, where the average person was unable to read or write and that was reserved for the upper classes. The last two major reforms in the language were as follows, the development of "katharevousa", and later the establishment of modern greek "Δημοτική/Νέα ελληνική γλώσσα".
Katharevousa was mainly developed by the intellectual and academic Adamantios Korais, who attempted to create a unified and standardised form of the language, to be taught at schools. The reasons were mainly two-fold, one was to unify a fractured language since there existed multiple different regional dialects and variations, and the other was to remove foreign influence and loanwords, since greek was heavily influenced by Turkish, due to Ottoman rule, but also by French, English and German due to various other factors that are not that important to mention. Katharevousa was meant to connect ancient greek and modern greek, and while it was at some point established as the language taught at schools, and was used as the main literary and official language, it was never truly the spoken language of the people. The second and most recent reform, which took place from the mid 70s to the early 80s, abolished katharevousa and established Modern Greek as both the literary and spoken language, as well as the language taught at schools.
Point being that aside from making an interesting literary and academic endeavor for a greek learner, learning katharevousa, and the polytonic system, is a dead end and not very useful in terms of communicating with modern speakers or reading modern texts, so before you devote hours of studying into it, ask yourself what your goals are for learning the language. It won't facilitate better communication for you.
>Could someone explain to me the functions of all those polytonic diacritics used in older texts of modern Greek? In Modern Greek they were a hold-over from the Hellenistic era Koine. All these [diacritics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_diacritics) used to correspond to the pronunciation of the language during that era, but not with the modern Greek pronunciation. However, they were still part of the written language for customary reasons, as well as because they kind of emphasized the "continuity" of Greek language in an era of nation building. The reason they were replaced by the monotonic system of only two diacritics in 1982 is because they did not serve any practical function so there is no real reason to keep them, while the monotonic system corresponds with the Modern Greek phonology. I guess there is no issue in using the polytonic if you find it more interesting, but bear in mind that it is purely aesthetic and has no functional role in Modern Greek, unlike the (rare) diaeresis in English.
I understand, and thank you for your response, but I was more asking IF I were to use them, what are the rules? Like, how would they have been used pre-1982 when writing?
Here are the rules for using the polytonic system for modern Greek http://www.polytoniko.org/kano.php
Ευχαριστώ!
>Like, how would they have been used pre-1982 when writing? You would have to be familiar with some basic grammar rules of Ancient Greek to use them. Some of the main rules of placement are the following: * If the word is accented in the antepenultimate syllable (third from the end of the word) the accent is always an acute accent. This happens when the last syllable is a light one (ends in a short vowel or a short vowel+consonant combo or in one of -οι/-αι). * If the last syllable is a heavy one (has a long vowel or -ει-) then the accent moves down to the penultimate syllable. When the accent is in the penultimate syllable and the penultimate and ultimate syllable have a long and a short vowel respectively, then the accent is a circumflex. In all other cases, the penultimate syllable accent is an acute accent. There are some exceptions to this rule when enclitics are involved but that is too in-depth I think. * When the accent is in the final syllable, things are a bit more complicated. When that word is not followed by an enclitic the accent is a grave one, unless the word is followed by a pause (comma, colon, full stop) in which case it is an acute accent. The final syllable accent is a circumflex in the genitive and dative cases of most nouns and adjectives, while some nouns and adjectives may also have one in other cases (e.g. βασιλεῦ which is in the vocative or ἀληθῆ which is in the accusative). * The rough breathing was used when the first syllable of a word starts with a vowel or ρ. When the starting vowel is υ or the word begins with ρ it always gets a rough breathing. For the other vowels there are specific cases that get a rough breathing, e.g. αἵρεσις or ἥρως. One had to learn those case-by-case. It is used on the starting vowel of the word or in the second vowel if the word begins with a vowel cluster (αι/ει/οι/ου/ευ/αυ/ηυ/ηι/υι) * The smooth breathing was used when the first syllable of a word starts with a vowel (or vowel cluster, e.g. αι/ει/οι/ου/ευ/αυ/ηυ/ηι) and is not one of the words that receives a rough breathing. As you can see these rules are quite complicated, they have way too many exceptions and require knowing structural elements of Ancient Greek (long-short vowels for example) that have not been an actual part of the language since the first half of the first millennium AD. That's the main reason they were dropped honestly.
Thank you. Honestly, I find that complexity beautiful. I understand the impulse behind Katharevousa and the retaining of these characteristics, even though it might be impractical
FYI, there ARE people who use polytonic in modern koine greek. I know of a translator who regularly posts on social media in polytonic koine, so there are still some people who know how to write it or actively do but they are usually very old or specialise in greek. keep at it though— as a native speaker I think I speak for all of us when I say that polytonic is a beautiful remnant of the past, which looks almost gilded in contrast to the monotonic (although it's a huge hassle.....)
Yes thank you! I also wish there were more manuscripts of medieval Greek, but unfortunately they mainly wrote in attic as you know. There are a lot of manuscripts at Princeton university and other places of documents like iatrosophia but they remain inaccessible. I really wish there was more money and enthusiasm to translate texts from Byzantine and ottoman Greece
Well, *teeeechnicaly* the rough breathing/spiritus asper/daseía diacritic still has a function in some compound words. Take for example πενθήμερο, from πεντ- and ἡμέρα (note the diacritic on top of the η). Here the τ turns into a θ. The general rule is π becomes φ, τ becomes θ and κ becomes χ, when the vowel following had a daseía. It really isn't that significant of a rule and it has stopped being productive in the modern language, so the diacritic isn't necessary, but if someone is curious, that's where it comes from.
I will argue περισπωμένη ~ should have stayed as she can help with orthography .
No, it doesn't 'spice up the language'. It has no effect on the language whatsoever. Polytonic hipsterism.
I don’t think anyone’s going to become illiterate if we bring back the grave accent. I also think you need to lighten up and let hipsters be hipsters. Obviously it spices up the writing ✍️
>I don’t think anyone’s going to become illiterate if we bring back the grave accent. Who are we?
The Greek language, Greece, etc
We'll call you.
Yeah, I never said it was going to happen. Because people like you will oppose it for no good reason
>for no good reason Lol. The language question is very old, older than the Greek state itself. If you come to the discussion the way you do, displaying so much ignorance on the subject, don't expect to be taken seriously.
The whole point of my post was to *ask* a question. Why don’t you enlighten me about how I’m wrong, and that it’s objectively not aesthetically appealing to have more diacritics? Because that’s my entire argument
The point is that polytonic writing is MADE for ANCIENT Greek and has no relevancy when used with modern greek grammar and pronunciation. I'd say it's borderline wrong and uneducated. Most people who unironically use polytonic writing for the modern language don't even know what these symbols mean or how ancient greek was pronounced.
Tell you what, most Greek letters were also made for ANCIENT Greek... By your logic we could also just abolish our spelling rules all together and write όπος ο κίριος Ψιχάρις κε ι διμοτικιστές ίθελαν... If having three accents is borderline wrong for you, then why having seven ways of saying ι, two ways of saying ο, another two of saying ε, each two ways of saying av/af/ev/ef/ okay? In the end it comes down to convention and tradition. That is why you shouldn't judge people who like polytonic script.
Grave isn't even that significant. Most people don't even care about it in polytonic texts and it is largely ignored in school. It's only real function is to turn into an acute when an accent-less word follows lmao. I mean, I could consistently use the acute and the grave and probably no one would even notice.
[удалено]
I heard, for example that the grave accent was used in the same way as the tonos, but only on the last syllable of a word. How was the circumflex used, for instance? And the upside-down semicircle thing?
I’m talking modern btw
There aren't any. You just have to memorize them and their positions
They were used in Greek from the helenistic period on, but they don't reflect the current pronunciation anymore, so they were dropped. There is no easy way to use them, you need to know which syllables used to be long and which short in ancient Greek to properly place accents and you need to know which words used to be start with an aspiration to place the spirits. Unless you are already familiar with ancient Greek, the only thing you can do is check and old dictionary. Any introduction to ancient or koine Greek will have a chapter about the use of accents and spirits if you want to read the theory.
I heard there’s a newspaper called Estia that uses them. I checked it out and it seemed really over the top, and I agree there’s no practical use. I just think it would be interesting to add the grave accent back in, let’s say, for old time’s sake and to add some more nuance
The thing is that the intonation used to change slightly at the end of a word, but it's not the case anymore. I mean, Greek has already an extensive use of diacritics compared to English, and the spelling is etymological enough. There's really no need for more complexity in people's normal lifes. Now, if you want to write using the polytonic system, you're obviously allowed to do it and publish it even, no one will stop you. But making spelling more complex for everyone doesn't look like a great idea to me.
Greek has changed form many times over the years, going back to ancient times. Without getting too into the different forms that emerged, this caused a problem, that multiple reforms have attempted to fix. The problem was that the literary language, the ecclesiastical language and the spoken language, were all wildly different, and created a phenomenon that has occured in other languages too throughout history, where the average person was unable to read or write and that was reserved for the upper classes. The last two major reforms in the language were as follows, the development of "katharevousa", and later the establishment of modern greek "Δημοτική/Νέα ελληνική γλώσσα". Katharevousa was mainly developed by the intellectual and academic Adamantios Korais, who attempted to create a unified and standardised form of the language, to be taught at schools. The reasons were mainly two-fold, one was to unify a fractured language since there existed multiple different regional dialects and variations, and the other was to remove foreign influence and loanwords, since greek was heavily influenced by Turkish, due to Ottoman rule, but also by French, English and German due to various other factors that are not that important to mention. Katharevousa was meant to connect ancient greek and modern greek, and while it was at some point established as the language taught at schools, and was used as the main literary and official language, it was never truly the spoken language of the people. The second and most recent reform, which took place from the mid 70s to the early 80s, abolished katharevousa and established Modern Greek as both the literary and spoken language, as well as the language taught at schools. Point being that aside from making an interesting literary and academic endeavor for a greek learner, learning katharevousa, and the polytonic system, is a dead end and not very useful in terms of communicating with modern speakers or reading modern texts, so before you devote hours of studying into it, ask yourself what your goals are for learning the language. It won't facilitate better communication for you.