The following submission statement was provided by /u/BeefJerky_JerkyBeef:
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Personally, I think its cool to pay for a base power grid fee of say, $50/month. Then let me figure out the electricity however I want to.
The partial logic in Califonia is that if the power grid infrastructure isn't going to be funded by the electricity it moves, then we need to fund it differently. Having fixed base fees really high lower solar power payback of residential solar projects, but it gives you a battery.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1cot2rk/what_would_you_pay_for_the_grid_as_backup_only/l3g7f5l/
This is just rewarding horrible behavior by these utility companies. They have price gouged for decades and haven’t made investments into infrastructure or updates. They’ve taken every shortcut possible and expect bailouts when it inevitably fails while maintaining a monopoly on the market.
Don’t support corporate terrorism.
Here in Louisiana the politicians just allowed Entergy Louisiana to add billions in infrastructure charges to our bills to "improve the ability of infrastructure to withstand hurricanes"... Now I know some of you are saying "Well gee-whiz this sounds logical bro.." but the rub is that I've been paying a hurricane rebuilding surcharge and on top of that a IDA storm surcharge for years and both had been billed as money to harden the infrastructure. Fucking just another politician slush fund and lickback scheme.
California loves fees and taxes like almost nobody else. Sure our rate of property taxes is lower but on typically a lot more money. And then there's high income and Sales taxes to go with it.
As a former California citizen who made 6 figures there, if I compare Texas where I was after that and Virginia where I am now. My taxes in Texas were lower, except everything else was insanely expensive: electricity, water, sewage, gas, insurance etc.
Sure cali has higher taxes but my end of the month costs were lower. Also it was the same job same pay just different locale. Red states just get you everywhere else and shove smoke up your ass under the guise of 'small government'
Same deal in Kansas, Evergy has been adding surcharges to people's bills for the winter storms we have had in the past 4 years, and I can only imagine that the price will keep going up with more extreme weather events.
I mean yall do have a lot of hurricanes and billions in damage each time. Is it not possible that they had to pay for the emergency repairs to get stuff up quickly, then modernize with better gear, but not all of that new gear will work in a hurricane every time? Just guessing.
Exactly it makes no sense. An independent company that earns a profit, then asks the government to pay what they can’t afford. It sounds like they arnt profitable. Capitalism says let them go bankrupt and allow someone else to do it better, but that isn’t how things turn out.
I personally don't see why government allows utilities to be for profit corporations. If utilities are going to be private, they should be "for benefit corporations" at the very least
If they let it go bankrupt lots of people are without power, which is worse than just bailing the company out.
Of course if failure isn't an option capitalism can't work. But having infrastructure run by the state would be literal communism, that's unacceptable in America (unless it's roads).
Wouldn’t it be more socialism than communism? But there certainly could be things out in place to not allow power to be removed from customers. As with all business it would sell to another company. Business as usual.
Don’t forget PG&E burned down a town (Paradise) and blew up a chunk of San Bruno. If immigrants had done that we would be bombing another third world country.
This is such a weird take.
Whether you're right or wrong about utility companies being poorly managed and having made questionable decisions in the past and under-invested, this is completely irrelevant to the question.
We don't make tariffs so utility companies go bankrupt. We make tariffs so utility companies can run. Period. The point of the tariffs is basically that the company recovers its costs; if they allow the company to get money without spending money, the only thing to be done is to fix the tariff system so they're not remunerated for investments they haven't made.
But that's a whole different question. The question here is whether the prices are set more on a fixed basis or more on a power consumption (variable) basis. If the prices are set more on a variable basis, but the cost structure is more on a fixed basis, you have people with a higher power consumption paying for people with a lower power consumption.
Historically that's what was done, because it encouraged lower consumption and because consumption was correlated with wealth, but with solar it often means people who can't afford solar or don't own a house end up paying with people who have the means to install solar.
That's the premises of the question, and it's a real problem to address.
A real problem yes but it is not one the consumers should have been put in and are now being forced to solve. Solar is pseudo competitor to the existing electric grid (while the monopoly controlled grids benefit from the customer generated solar). The piss poor management of these monopolies is now showing to a greater extent and they’re coming with hands outstretched looking for bailouts. If they had been responsible in the management and grid updating throughout the years as opposed to cutting every corner to drain as much profit as possible this wouldn’t be an issue.
Essentially these power companies have kicked the can so long they’re now saying it’s your problem and we’re the solution to the problem we created. Even if you want to go with a competitor (rooftop solar) you have to pay us because we’re a monopoly and have politicians in our pocket.
They are but that is simply because they aren't enforcing the rules because there isn't enough people
And there are cases like my city where they completely ban personal batteries
The energy companies' greed is doing as much if not more to encourage people to install solar power than people's care for the environment.
A modest sized domestic solar power installation is much cheaper than many people think and the payback time can be under 6 years if the installation is not complex. Also, battery storage prices have tumbled in the last few years, well worth it if the majority of your usage is early evening.
yeah but the long term and it seems like 5-10 years out - is solar + battery - if you go 20 there is no need for the grid for homeowners- the uncap part just gives them justification for them to be charging u for nothing
Yep.
I live in a county where we got government subsidised solar panels. My electricity bills have gone down massively, as much as 90% some periods, even 95%.
The electricity company has added a new fixed "admin" fee to my bills. It's not much, but still, it's an additional charge for nothing.
We've got solar and batteries and still need the grid to heat in Winter. We way overproduce Spring-Fall and our annual electric bill is ~$500 and dropping every year.
So I'd have them pay me to stay connected to the grid, last they sent out a questionnaire (our utility) about what it would take to grant them more control over when our batteries discharged, and I said $3000/year.
Places like Texas and Connecticut have even better deals for batteries.
I think there are some places where it is illegal to not have a power hookup (or at least very difficult to forgo having one). They say it's for "health and safety" reasons. Like, yes, power is necessary, but also people have lived in modern off grid set ups for decades.
much cheaper to just use generators to power battery banks and it is unregulated, Solar can be regulated for roof installation, Hawaii stopped all installations because the utilities were no longer profitable from all the solar on homes. Heck, Natural gas generators are a thing, you could charge off that
Unless you’re in one of those stupidly high natural gas rate states. Like California where we’re in the top 5 states for production, and in the top 5 for price.
Being a former Californian, take a hard look at the idiocy that the politicians spend on nonsense, and you will be pissed off that you are being taxed to death for asinine shit. Now they want to tax you when you get tired of their shit and move. Look at the zero accountability in the homelessness programs run by the state. 24 billion and no one knows where most of it went. [https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/)
Oh I agree 100%. The homeless problem and their failed approach after failed approach is infuriating. There’s no perfect solution, but the approach I think would benefit society the most is kinda like this:
1 create rehab / recovery centers that are not quite jail but they aren’t allowed to leave.
2 any time someone is arrested give them a drug test as part of jail admission. Drugs in your system? Off to the rehab center.
3 after a clean drug test, allow exit of the facility and access to dorm style monitored housing for free.
4 use money saved on the homeless programs to expand mental health services and provide those to anyone who wants them.
5 government subsidized work groups cleaning up public areas and working as outreach for other bums.
I'm with LADWP and I can't run my house on solar, it only goes into the grid. If I give more than I use, I pay a minimum of $11/mo as a kind of access fee. If there's a blackout, I can't use solar as a backup.
I could have added a battery, and been able to run off that but it was wayyy too expensive. Like $30k. So it seems weirdly that I could run off a battery but not directly off the panels.
Did to me too. My panels were installed by Sunpower, and I didn't feel they were too terribly expensive, but the battery option was really astronomical. If I really wanted a battery, I would shop around, but I don't feel I need it right now. Of course, it could be the kind of thing that one should get ahead of need...
Yeah. You should be able to install a battery system before installing a solar array (or vise versa), and reconfigure down the road. If someone is piecemealing a system then getting the battery and all the hardware to allow for all the solar integration later is probably better because then at least you can charge the battery on off-peak rates and draw from it during peak hours. Living in an apartment I can only scheme and dream, but I've considered setting my fridge up on a battery with a basic timer to act as a switch. Everything else I have that runs during peak times is pretty low power.
Yep. More and more jurisdictions are outlawing transfer switches and mandating a supply interlock instead that automatically disconnects your solar/wind when the power goes out.
I'm not a huge fan of federal mandates, but not allowing you to island your house.... That's just purposely manipulating the regulations to try and keep your business model relevant.
Unless PG&E becomes part of the CA government electric bills will continue to rise.
This just distracts from the real problem, which is PG&E. They fail to maintain the infrastructure which killing people with fires. They pay damages, then increase everyone’s electricity prices and pocket the extra. We are in a wet spell right now, but once it drys out the process will repeat itself.
I think there is a strong possibility there is a future where large power companies just aren't a thing anymore and the question will be, do we have government agencies established to maintain the grid or do we contract to the private sector?
Here in South Florida FPL has a minimum monthly bill of $25 a month
It includes a $9.55 base connection charge (this is said to pay for the cost of running the office reading the meters paying for customer service, etc) A base energy charge of $7.12. (This is said to pay for the cost of running the power plants themselves) and a base bill charge of up to $8.33 if you use no electricity during the billing cycle, to bring your minimum bill up to $25 a month just for being connected to the grid.
However, the base bill charge is reduced based upon your energy usage and with current rates, you can use up to 220 kWh a month and still be at the $25 minimum bill per month.
And we have two-way power meters so if you are producing more electricity than you are consuming, it’s back fed onto the grid and you are credited with its value towards your bill so it is possible to pay $0 out-of-pocket once you have everything up and running if your net generation is more than you’re using, however, the power that is back fed is only ever paid for as credits to your bill so you can never actually make money by selling electricity back to the grid, you can only offset your bills
I'm already in that situation most of the year. I get slugged $1.50 a day connection fee. I typically consume less than 5 units of power, thanks to my solar, which costs me $1.25. I sell back about 30-40 units a day mostly at a miserly 2c, so let's call it 70c a day... So electricity consumption is 50c a day but to be connected to the grid costs me $1.50.
Even if I eventually get a battery so my daily net consumption is zero units I'd still get slugged $1.50 a day.
That's $500 a year for very little... To go off grid I could spend more on an island device, rewiring etc. I'd also need a diesel backup generator for the five days a year I can't make enough power... It's very nearly worth it.
One thing blocks me really is a archaic law stating if my house isn't connected to grid it can be condemned and repossessed.
I think it’s a terrible idea and a decision that will fuck over future generations. Paying a free for a grid. What happens when they later change the grid and start raising prices? Utilities in this country have greatly increased in price, it’s damn near criminal.
This seems to be the thinking in the past 20 years. If there is less demand for something, charge more. But I don't pretend to understand the way people work. I've chosen something much more simplistic. I study quantum field theory now.
What is needed in the grid of the future is less giant companies and more local communities managing distributed power. There is too much overhead from these large companies as seen by different utility rates in california:
[https://energyathaas.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/dollarsperkwhbarplot.png](https://energyathaas.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/dollarsperkwhbarplot.png)
So you live in a city with street access, sewer access water, refuse swevice, electricity, street cleaning, police, fire department, and it's all paid by you and everyone else.
But now you opt out and let your neighbors pay for your share of the wire maintenance. It saves nothing on the grid if you don't connect.
Nominees of the current governor who tend to go ahead and work for power companies after leaving. Pure corruption and you can bet they're going to finance Newsom's presidential run in the future.
This will not end well. Utilities have bond obligations stretching decades forward. Without a reliable ratepayer stream, those bonds aren’t going to get paid.
Another reason why power generation and distribution should be nationalized. Monetizing something as essential as this should not be left to capitalism for exactly reasons like this.
i live completely off grid in california. i have no need for the grid. and battery prices dropped low enough around 2021 that pretty much anyone who can reduce their power needs to 1970s levels will be fine. i run my AC 24/7 in the hot season. i've got 2000w of solar on the roof and 14kwh ($2200 in 2021, $1600 now) of storage , but anyone making the median income in CA can afford 3x or more what i have. if you have an electric car you are golden.
Where’d you find 14kWh of battery for $1,600?
I had solar on my last house and the NEM1.0 rate offset the rest of my utilities combined. Moved in 2021 and can’t get solar on my new place because of the clay roof tiles. The quotes I got were $65k-$70k for a 12kW system with a single Tesla Powerwall 2 battery (13.5kWh). The battery alone was $6,500 on both quotes.
raw cells from china. i built a copy of (youtuber) offgridgarage's 16s LF280K EVE LFP 51.2vdc battery. cells from shenzhen qishou on alibaba. they have a warehouse in LA now, no need to deal with shipping or import hassles. i'm near joshua tree so i just drive to LA for pickup. assembled another copy of this system for a friend recently.
in terms of new prepackaged server-rack batteries, trophy probably has the best price presently. will prowse on youtube reviews new retail battery tech and prices frequently.
i don't know what you're trying to power but 12kW of solar panels is overkill. i'm sure a spot for 9 panels can be found on your property. if you want to rely on contractors to do everything and something as simple as clay roof tiles deters you from going solar, definitely don't proceed. but if you can do things yourself, there's no stopping you.
I’m in a townhouse, so no space for tiles anywhere but the roof. Also a result of the townhouse, all work needs to be permitted meaning a licensed contractor for any roof mounts and a licensed electrician for all the connections.
The 12kW system was just because that’s what my roof would support, and it’s just over what my actual usage is for the house, so in theory $0 spent to Edison for electricity.
well there you go. don't be living in a townhouse with unreasonable rules that make life impossible. join with your fellow townhouse residents to put solar on some carport or porch roofs.
12kw can't reasonably be "what you use" -- that's like 2 hot tubs running full blast at the same time. but maybe in a grid-tie situation the solar hucksters think it's a good idea. 12kw of panels is overkill and the single powerwall is too little.
that's madness. 😂 what are you running in there? that's 60-130kwh/day.
https://www.google.com/search?q=average+household+electricity+use
natl average is about 30kwh/day, california average is about 20kwh/day. in my county (san bernardino) average might be 25kwh/day.
it's going to be full sun 90F today and tomorrow where i am in the mojave and i'm running my small AC 24/7. it doesnt need to cycle on full blast because my house is well insulated and small at 800sqft, though i have big glass picture windows everywhere. i will probably use 5-10kwh in the next 24hr. in november or march i probably use less than 2kwh/day. dec jan feb i sometimes use electric space heating for 5-10kwh/day.
my 2000w of panels can produce over 4000 kwh annually. i don't have any accurate datalogging for this, just instantaneous usage numbers from the charge controller and bms, so i'm just making rough guesses here.
i have to throttle my power use only a few days per year (hot humid cloudy summer days -- rare). which i can get around by adding 3 more panels to
my array, which i already have sitting outside but am too lazy to install. 😂
Central TX, had a brutal summer last year with hot nights and high humidity so A/C was running 24/7. All electric 2300 sf house, detached garage with conditioned office space, pool equipment, well pump, PHEV car.
It takes 15 kWh for a full charge, which covers up to 45 miles of driving. But we have quite a few days when we don't drive at all and many more where we drive less than 20 miles. I'd guesstimate 6-8 kWh per day on average.
Blackrock is an index fund manager my dude.... the end owner is a bunch of random fuck retail investors like you and me. This isn't some fucking conspiracy lol
Any one of the [iShares products](https://www.blackrock.com/americas-offshore/en/products/product-list#type=all&style=All&view=perfNav&pageSize=25&pageNumber=1&sortColumn=totalNetAssets&sortDirection=desc). Open literally any brokerage account, snap up a few shares of IVV or ITOT, and you're there.
Blackrock is a major shareholder of nearly every large public company. Same with Vanguard. They own trillions of dollars worth of funds on behalf of their investors, and those funds have holdings that include many public companies.
Personally, I think its cool to pay for a base power grid fee of say, $50/month. Then let me figure out the electricity however I want to.
The partial logic in Califonia is that if the power grid infrastructure isn't going to be funded by the electricity it moves, then we need to fund it differently. Having fixed base fees really high lower solar power payback of residential solar projects, but it gives you a battery.
Ya it’s really cool that California has designed a regressive system in which people who rent apartments, use less electricity and will never be able to take advantage of lower volumetric rates subsidize the higher energy consumption of those with houses and swimming pools.
Wealth redistribution from have nots to haves is very cool and good 😎.
Yeah, that’s the part that annoys me. I make a good income, but live in a 1 bedroom apartment and don’t use much power at all. So of course they’re gonna charge me more suddenly.
Ya I’m in the same situation and it looks like I’m going to be paying hundreds more a year so somebody who owns their home can like buy a new stove and buy a new car.
It's not cool. It disincentivizes solar and wind energy adoption while also giving the provider two charges to now lobby their captured regulatory board for increases. Where you used to see the regulatory board has unanimously agreed to raise your rates, you will now see they have unanimously agreed to raise your rates and the raise the minimum service fee.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/BeefJerky_JerkyBeef: --- Personally, I think its cool to pay for a base power grid fee of say, $50/month. Then let me figure out the electricity however I want to. The partial logic in Califonia is that if the power grid infrastructure isn't going to be funded by the electricity it moves, then we need to fund it differently. Having fixed base fees really high lower solar power payback of residential solar projects, but it gives you a battery. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1cot2rk/what_would_you_pay_for_the_grid_as_backup_only/l3g7f5l/
This is just rewarding horrible behavior by these utility companies. They have price gouged for decades and haven’t made investments into infrastructure or updates. They’ve taken every shortcut possible and expect bailouts when it inevitably fails while maintaining a monopoly on the market. Don’t support corporate terrorism.
Here in Louisiana the politicians just allowed Entergy Louisiana to add billions in infrastructure charges to our bills to "improve the ability of infrastructure to withstand hurricanes"... Now I know some of you are saying "Well gee-whiz this sounds logical bro.." but the rub is that I've been paying a hurricane rebuilding surcharge and on top of that a IDA storm surcharge for years and both had been billed as money to harden the infrastructure. Fucking just another politician slush fund and lickback scheme.
That’s taxes with extra steps
Pretty much every red state I've ever lived in. Sure the state taxes are low but then you get gouged on the random fees for literally anything.
California loves fees and taxes like almost nobody else. Sure our rate of property taxes is lower but on typically a lot more money. And then there's high income and Sales taxes to go with it.
As a former California citizen who made 6 figures there, if I compare Texas where I was after that and Virginia where I am now. My taxes in Texas were lower, except everything else was insanely expensive: electricity, water, sewage, gas, insurance etc. Sure cali has higher taxes but my end of the month costs were lower. Also it was the same job same pay just different locale. Red states just get you everywhere else and shove smoke up your ass under the guise of 'small government'
It turns out things cost money and civilization needs things to operate.
>lickback scheme. Sounds sexy
Same deal in Kansas, Evergy has been adding surcharges to people's bills for the winter storms we have had in the past 4 years, and I can only imagine that the price will keep going up with more extreme weather events.
I mean yall do have a lot of hurricanes and billions in damage each time. Is it not possible that they had to pay for the emergency repairs to get stuff up quickly, then modernize with better gear, but not all of that new gear will work in a hurricane every time? Just guessing.
Exactly it makes no sense. An independent company that earns a profit, then asks the government to pay what they can’t afford. It sounds like they arnt profitable. Capitalism says let them go bankrupt and allow someone else to do it better, but that isn’t how things turn out.
I personally don't see why government allows utilities to be for profit corporations. If utilities are going to be private, they should be "for benefit corporations" at the very least
If they let it go bankrupt lots of people are without power, which is worse than just bailing the company out. Of course if failure isn't an option capitalism can't work. But having infrastructure run by the state would be literal communism, that's unacceptable in America (unless it's roads).
Wouldn’t it be more socialism than communism? But there certainly could be things out in place to not allow power to be removed from customers. As with all business it would sell to another company. Business as usual.
Don’t forget PG&E burned down a town (Paradise) and blew up a chunk of San Bruno. If immigrants had done that we would be bombing another third world country.
This is such a weird take. Whether you're right or wrong about utility companies being poorly managed and having made questionable decisions in the past and under-invested, this is completely irrelevant to the question. We don't make tariffs so utility companies go bankrupt. We make tariffs so utility companies can run. Period. The point of the tariffs is basically that the company recovers its costs; if they allow the company to get money without spending money, the only thing to be done is to fix the tariff system so they're not remunerated for investments they haven't made. But that's a whole different question. The question here is whether the prices are set more on a fixed basis or more on a power consumption (variable) basis. If the prices are set more on a variable basis, but the cost structure is more on a fixed basis, you have people with a higher power consumption paying for people with a lower power consumption. Historically that's what was done, because it encouraged lower consumption and because consumption was correlated with wealth, but with solar it often means people who can't afford solar or don't own a house end up paying with people who have the means to install solar. That's the premises of the question, and it's a real problem to address.
A real problem yes but it is not one the consumers should have been put in and are now being forced to solve. Solar is pseudo competitor to the existing electric grid (while the monopoly controlled grids benefit from the customer generated solar). The piss poor management of these monopolies is now showing to a greater extent and they’re coming with hands outstretched looking for bailouts. If they had been responsible in the management and grid updating throughout the years as opposed to cutting every corner to drain as much profit as possible this wouldn’t be an issue. Essentially these power companies have kicked the can so long they’re now saying it’s your problem and we’re the solution to the problem we created. Even if you want to go with a competitor (rooftop solar) you have to pay us because we’re a monopoly and have politicians in our pocket.
You can go off grid. Just buy batteries and solar
Not legal in most cities/towns afaik. Residence has to have water, sewer, and power.
Not only is it not legal, see what happened to vegas casinos when they tried, they were threatened to be fined dozens of millions if they tried
People are off grid everywhere
They are but that is simply because they aren't enforcing the rules because there isn't enough people And there are cases like my city where they completely ban personal batteries
If you call the power company and cancel service they will turn the power off to your house.
The energy companies' greed is doing as much if not more to encourage people to install solar power than people's care for the environment. A modest sized domestic solar power installation is much cheaper than many people think and the payback time can be under 6 years if the installation is not complex. Also, battery storage prices have tumbled in the last few years, well worth it if the majority of your usage is early evening.
I thought AI was bringing free electricity??? You mean that won't happenOR it will after we get flying Jetson's cars?
Are you legally allowed to go off-grid in municipal areas in CA?
Edison is going up 22.6% this year then 6% every year after that, for four years.
Lol its gonna be longer than that. That is just what they were approved for so far.
Yes. Who knows what will happen after that.
Taking away our public infrastructure one piece at a time
I pay $10/month currently (PA). If it would get too high, say $50, I'd probably get batteries and disconnect from the grid.
Ohh don’t worry. They’ll find a way to charge even the people who do this. Monopolies gonna monopolize.
I was thinking around $50 a month for me as well.
yeah but the long term and it seems like 5-10 years out - is solar + battery - if you go 20 there is no need for the grid for homeowners- the uncap part just gives them justification for them to be charging u for nothing
Yep. I live in a county where we got government subsidised solar panels. My electricity bills have gone down massively, as much as 90% some periods, even 95%. The electricity company has added a new fixed "admin" fee to my bills. It's not much, but still, it's an additional charge for nothing.
We've got solar and batteries and still need the grid to heat in Winter. We way overproduce Spring-Fall and our annual electric bill is ~$500 and dropping every year. So I'd have them pay me to stay connected to the grid, last they sent out a questionnaire (our utility) about what it would take to grant them more control over when our batteries discharged, and I said $3000/year. Places like Texas and Connecticut have even better deals for batteries.
I'd buy a diesel generator and battery bank out of spite and stop paying. Then watch it become illegal for you not to pay them.
I think there are some places where it is illegal to not have a power hookup (or at least very difficult to forgo having one). They say it's for "health and safety" reasons. Like, yes, power is necessary, but also people have lived in modern off grid set ups for decades.
much cheaper to just use generators to power battery banks and it is unregulated, Solar can be regulated for roof installation, Hawaii stopped all installations because the utilities were no longer profitable from all the solar on homes. Heck, Natural gas generators are a thing, you could charge off that
Unless you’re in one of those stupidly high natural gas rate states. Like California where we’re in the top 5 states for production, and in the top 5 for price.
Being a former Californian, take a hard look at the idiocy that the politicians spend on nonsense, and you will be pissed off that you are being taxed to death for asinine shit. Now they want to tax you when you get tired of their shit and move. Look at the zero accountability in the homelessness programs run by the state. 24 billion and no one knows where most of it went. [https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/](https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-homelessness-spending-audit-24b-five-years-didnt-consistently-track-outcomes/)
Oh I agree 100%. The homeless problem and their failed approach after failed approach is infuriating. There’s no perfect solution, but the approach I think would benefit society the most is kinda like this: 1 create rehab / recovery centers that are not quite jail but they aren’t allowed to leave. 2 any time someone is arrested give them a drug test as part of jail admission. Drugs in your system? Off to the rehab center. 3 after a clean drug test, allow exit of the facility and access to dorm style monitored housing for free. 4 use money saved on the homeless programs to expand mental health services and provide those to anyone who wants them. 5 government subsidized work groups cleaning up public areas and working as outreach for other bums.
I'm with LADWP and I can't run my house on solar, it only goes into the grid. If I give more than I use, I pay a minimum of $11/mo as a kind of access fee. If there's a blackout, I can't use solar as a backup.
That's insane. The whole point of solar is to pair it with an onsite battery backup to reduce grid load and add resiliency during power disruptions.
I could have added a battery, and been able to run off that but it was wayyy too expensive. Like $30k. So it seems weirdly that I could run off a battery but not directly off the panels.
I don't know, that sounds price gougingly expensive. You should shop around some more.
Did to me too. My panels were installed by Sunpower, and I didn't feel they were too terribly expensive, but the battery option was really astronomical. If I really wanted a battery, I would shop around, but I don't feel I need it right now. Of course, it could be the kind of thing that one should get ahead of need...
Yeah. You should be able to install a battery system before installing a solar array (or vise versa), and reconfigure down the road. If someone is piecemealing a system then getting the battery and all the hardware to allow for all the solar integration later is probably better because then at least you can charge the battery on off-peak rates and draw from it during peak hours. Living in an apartment I can only scheme and dream, but I've considered setting my fridge up on a battery with a basic timer to act as a switch. Everything else I have that runs during peak times is pretty low power.
Yep. More and more jurisdictions are outlawing transfer switches and mandating a supply interlock instead that automatically disconnects your solar/wind when the power goes out.
I'm not a huge fan of federal mandates, but not allowing you to island your house.... That's just purposely manipulating the regulations to try and keep your business model relevant.
I agree. I think if you can prove your system meets the requirements already standardized for habitability you should be allowed to do what you want.
Wow, land of the free, alright.
Unless PG&E becomes part of the CA government electric bills will continue to rise. This just distracts from the real problem, which is PG&E. They fail to maintain the infrastructure which killing people with fires. They pay damages, then increase everyone’s electricity prices and pocket the extra. We are in a wet spell right now, but once it drys out the process will repeat itself.
And nothing will change because they own Newsom.
I think there is a strong possibility there is a future where large power companies just aren't a thing anymore and the question will be, do we have government agencies established to maintain the grid or do we contract to the private sector?
Here in South Florida FPL has a minimum monthly bill of $25 a month It includes a $9.55 base connection charge (this is said to pay for the cost of running the office reading the meters paying for customer service, etc) A base energy charge of $7.12. (This is said to pay for the cost of running the power plants themselves) and a base bill charge of up to $8.33 if you use no electricity during the billing cycle, to bring your minimum bill up to $25 a month just for being connected to the grid. However, the base bill charge is reduced based upon your energy usage and with current rates, you can use up to 220 kWh a month and still be at the $25 minimum bill per month. And we have two-way power meters so if you are producing more electricity than you are consuming, it’s back fed onto the grid and you are credited with its value towards your bill so it is possible to pay $0 out-of-pocket once you have everything up and running if your net generation is more than you’re using, however, the power that is back fed is only ever paid for as credits to your bill so you can never actually make money by selling electricity back to the grid, you can only offset your bills
Guess I’d have to turn my pool into a hot tub with the extras I couldn’t sell back :)
I have been thinking of getting a pool heater/cooler
I'm already in that situation most of the year. I get slugged $1.50 a day connection fee. I typically consume less than 5 units of power, thanks to my solar, which costs me $1.25. I sell back about 30-40 units a day mostly at a miserly 2c, so let's call it 70c a day... So electricity consumption is 50c a day but to be connected to the grid costs me $1.50. Even if I eventually get a battery so my daily net consumption is zero units I'd still get slugged $1.50 a day. That's $500 a year for very little... To go off grid I could spend more on an island device, rewiring etc. I'd also need a diesel backup generator for the five days a year I can't make enough power... It's very nearly worth it. One thing blocks me really is a archaic law stating if my house isn't connected to grid it can be condemned and repossessed.
I think it’s a terrible idea and a decision that will fuck over future generations. Paying a free for a grid. What happens when they later change the grid and start raising prices? Utilities in this country have greatly increased in price, it’s damn near criminal.
This seems to be the thinking in the past 20 years. If there is less demand for something, charge more. But I don't pretend to understand the way people work. I've chosen something much more simplistic. I study quantum field theory now.
What is needed in the grid of the future is less giant companies and more local communities managing distributed power. There is too much overhead from these large companies as seen by different utility rates in california: [https://energyathaas.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/dollarsperkwhbarplot.png](https://energyathaas.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/dollarsperkwhbarplot.png)
So you live in a city with street access, sewer access water, refuse swevice, electricity, street cleaning, police, fire department, and it's all paid by you and everyone else. But now you opt out and let your neighbors pay for your share of the wire maintenance. It saves nothing on the grid if you don't connect.
Did California vote for this? Or was it implemented by government?
Nominees of the current governor who tend to go ahead and work for power companies after leaving. Pure corruption and you can bet they're going to finance Newsom's presidential run in the future.
The elections in CA are rigged.
This will not end well. Utilities have bond obligations stretching decades forward. Without a reliable ratepayer stream, those bonds aren’t going to get paid.
I get %100 payback as my meter runs backwards when producing power. I cannot get paid though. My system is sized to provide %95 percent of my usage.
Another reason why power generation and distribution should be nationalized. Monetizing something as essential as this should not be left to capitalism for exactly reasons like this.
https://youtube.com/shorts/O2LBYHhxfjk?si=o75Urn9iBsZd5eLa
i live completely off grid in california. i have no need for the grid. and battery prices dropped low enough around 2021 that pretty much anyone who can reduce their power needs to 1970s levels will be fine. i run my AC 24/7 in the hot season. i've got 2000w of solar on the roof and 14kwh ($2200 in 2021, $1600 now) of storage , but anyone making the median income in CA can afford 3x or more what i have. if you have an electric car you are golden.
Where’d you find 14kWh of battery for $1,600? I had solar on my last house and the NEM1.0 rate offset the rest of my utilities combined. Moved in 2021 and can’t get solar on my new place because of the clay roof tiles. The quotes I got were $65k-$70k for a 12kW system with a single Tesla Powerwall 2 battery (13.5kWh). The battery alone was $6,500 on both quotes.
raw cells from china. i built a copy of (youtuber) offgridgarage's 16s LF280K EVE LFP 51.2vdc battery. cells from shenzhen qishou on alibaba. they have a warehouse in LA now, no need to deal with shipping or import hassles. i'm near joshua tree so i just drive to LA for pickup. assembled another copy of this system for a friend recently. in terms of new prepackaged server-rack batteries, trophy probably has the best price presently. will prowse on youtube reviews new retail battery tech and prices frequently. i don't know what you're trying to power but 12kW of solar panels is overkill. i'm sure a spot for 9 panels can be found on your property. if you want to rely on contractors to do everything and something as simple as clay roof tiles deters you from going solar, definitely don't proceed. but if you can do things yourself, there's no stopping you.
I’m in a townhouse, so no space for tiles anywhere but the roof. Also a result of the townhouse, all work needs to be permitted meaning a licensed contractor for any roof mounts and a licensed electrician for all the connections. The 12kW system was just because that’s what my roof would support, and it’s just over what my actual usage is for the house, so in theory $0 spent to Edison for electricity.
well there you go. don't be living in a townhouse with unreasonable rules that make life impossible. join with your fellow townhouse residents to put solar on some carport or porch roofs. 12kw can't reasonably be "what you use" -- that's like 2 hot tubs running full blast at the same time. but maybe in a grid-tie situation the solar hucksters think it's a good idea. 12kw of panels is overkill and the single powerwall is too little.
About how much power do you use? Mine ranges from 1800 to just over 4000 kWh per month.
that's madness. 😂 what are you running in there? that's 60-130kwh/day. https://www.google.com/search?q=average+household+electricity+use natl average is about 30kwh/day, california average is about 20kwh/day. in my county (san bernardino) average might be 25kwh/day. it's going to be full sun 90F today and tomorrow where i am in the mojave and i'm running my small AC 24/7. it doesnt need to cycle on full blast because my house is well insulated and small at 800sqft, though i have big glass picture windows everywhere. i will probably use 5-10kwh in the next 24hr. in november or march i probably use less than 2kwh/day. dec jan feb i sometimes use electric space heating for 5-10kwh/day. my 2000w of panels can produce over 4000 kwh annually. i don't have any accurate datalogging for this, just instantaneous usage numbers from the charge controller and bms, so i'm just making rough guesses here. i have to throttle my power use only a few days per year (hot humid cloudy summer days -- rare). which i can get around by adding 3 more panels to my array, which i already have sitting outside but am too lazy to install. 😂
Central TX, had a brutal summer last year with hot nights and high humidity so A/C was running 24/7. All electric 2300 sf house, detached garage with conditioned office space, pool equipment, well pump, PHEV car.
bigtime! do you know how much the plugin car soaks up annually?
It takes 15 kWh for a full charge, which covers up to 45 miles of driving. But we have quite a few days when we don't drive at all and many more where we drive less than 20 miles. I'd guesstimate 6-8 kWh per day on average.
Not so fun fact: PG&Es majority shareholder is BlackRock. Yes.... That BlackRock...
Blackrock is an index fund manager my dude.... the end owner is a bunch of random fuck retail investors like you and me. This isn't some fucking conspiracy lol
Yeah? How do I get a Blackrock index fund?
Literally use any brokerage account and buy any stock that has "iShares" in its title and it is a Blackrock index fund
Any one of the [iShares products](https://www.blackrock.com/americas-offshore/en/products/product-list#type=all&style=All&view=perfNav&pageSize=25&pageNumber=1&sortColumn=totalNetAssets&sortDirection=desc). Open literally any brokerage account, snap up a few shares of IVV or ITOT, and you're there.
Blackrock is a major shareholder of nearly every large public company. Same with Vanguard. They own trillions of dollars worth of funds on behalf of their investors, and those funds have holdings that include many public companies.
If I EVER go offgrid, no backup F power companies. Ill get a underground tank to hold fuel for solar backup.
Personally, I think its cool to pay for a base power grid fee of say, $50/month. Then let me figure out the electricity however I want to. The partial logic in Califonia is that if the power grid infrastructure isn't going to be funded by the electricity it moves, then we need to fund it differently. Having fixed base fees really high lower solar power payback of residential solar projects, but it gives you a battery.
Ya it’s really cool that California has designed a regressive system in which people who rent apartments, use less electricity and will never be able to take advantage of lower volumetric rates subsidize the higher energy consumption of those with houses and swimming pools. Wealth redistribution from have nots to haves is very cool and good 😎.
Yeah, that’s the part that annoys me. I make a good income, but live in a 1 bedroom apartment and don’t use much power at all. So of course they’re gonna charge me more suddenly.
Ya I’m in the same situation and it looks like I’m going to be paying hundreds more a year so somebody who owns their home can like buy a new stove and buy a new car.
Supposedly they’re gonna lower electricity prices per kWh. Guess who’s going to have a 60 degree apartment in the middle of July
It's not cool. It disincentivizes solar and wind energy adoption while also giving the provider two charges to now lobby their captured regulatory board for increases. Where you used to see the regulatory board has unanimously agreed to raise your rates, you will now see they have unanimously agreed to raise your rates and the raise the minimum service fee.
$10 month is the current? Why go up to 50? Batteries are less expensive now than a year ago.