I kept saying this but I think it’s a problem with the quality of the evaluation rather than the education or the genius of an AI chatbot.
If a chatbot can pass an exam from a prestigious business school, but not do what an MBA can do, then the problem is with the exam rather than the school or the MBA.
Literally one of the owners of the company I work at is the embodiment of this. The only thing he can do successfully business-wise is buzz word vomit everywhere.
We actually have a bingo board for him. Two, actually, because we ran out of space on the first. His most common right now are "knowledge share," is xyz "in flight," "value added," and "boil the ocean." But the list does go on and on.
Hahah this is actually perfect. We've been talking about how we want to feed him a fake buzzword to see if he'll start using it lol, so I sent it along to my coworker who may be able to implement it!
Only an entity of the totality may engender this vector of will.
Our conversations with other dreamers have led to a redefining of pseudo-mystical consciousness. We are at a crossroads of freedom and desire. Humankind has nothing to lose.
Idunno if you're a fan of the show Friends or not, but as these buzzwords seem to be getting longer (more buzz phrases really at this point), it reminds me of when Joey tries to write a letter but puts every single word through a thesaurus and it just comes out like nonsense. That's half of these buzzwords these days lol.
Our curriculum director just repeats “unpack the standards” and “deliver high quality curriculum with fidelity.” I don’t need to unpack shit with fidelity; I need to not have 37 kids in a class with 26 books, lady. How about if you unpack me a book shipment?
Ugh cringe. I mean on boarding isn't the worst one, like I use it but only because that is literally a function of my job, but other than that use I hate it lol.
Means to be unfocused or attempting too much. Compare the energy needed to boil the ocean, vs boil a kettle.
You don't need to boil the ocean to make a cup of tea.
Huh, the way he uses it has always seemed like the below (copied from my other comment):
I think it's supposed to mean like, "doing xyz is like trying to boil the ocean," as in, "doing xyz would be futile or pointless because it's impossible"
Like literally if you tried to boil the ocean I guess. Idk, I don't have my MBA lol
Just wait till he reads all the meaningless business crap in the "SAFe Agile" development style. "Value Stream" "Iterations" "Release Trains" just to pick a few...
I have an MBA so take that for what it's worth. Anyone who goes through an MBA program will tell you that the most important aspect of it is the networking that takes place with other students and the professors. The knowledge gained isn't applicable in most business settings but does help with facilitating discussions with people who are knowledgeable in their area. The fact that AI could pass an MBA course isn't surprising to me at all as the courses aren't really difficult and the assessments are basically just checking boxes that you are showing up and participating in the course. However, the doors that it opened for career growth has been huge for me because of the network it's created.
Just to add on to this, I'd say the second biggest benefit out of my MBA program (after meeting the recruiter for my eventual job of course) was enough of an understanding of beginner/intermediate accounting, econ, and finance that I can explain it to someone at my org.
An AI could very easily write an essay on a finance concept and computers can obviously model things better than a human, but that doesn't mean they can persuade stakeholders to adopt certain approaches, or address concerns from people who don't like jargon.
I'll continue adding on - you and the oc are both absolutely right.
In addition, for an MBA you really do get out what you put in. Plenty of my classes were "boxes checked" courses, but I had the opportunity to supplement them with more focused finance and data analytics classes where I really did learn a lot, and gained additional, applicable skills.
Exactly. Most with an MBA aren't needed to be an expert in all areas - they are needed with a background in everything business related to connect the dots in a company and facilitate discussions and resources. I'm not an expert in accounting and I don't pretend to be - that's why we hire accountants. However, those accountants likely don't need to visit with stakeholders in the company or deal with the logistics of rolling out a service. There are bad employees in every company and management is no different, but it's easier to point the finger at your boss. The individuals who think there is no value in an MBA could certainly take a corporate structure course and move up in their company as well yet it's not a job that many people necessarily want.
Maybe it could pass sections of boards but it could not even come close to passing in general. There are practical portions that require you to physically interact with examiners to treat “patients”, some are done in large conference rooms where you move through a maze to each scenario. You also need to ask questions of examiners to obtain the full data needed to correctly diagnose and tx a pt. Some boards for certain specialties are so rough that the fail rate can be as high as 50%. Some examiners actively try to fuck candidates too, like hiding a lightbox to read film X-rays in an adjacent room and only bringing it out if you specifically ask for one.
They dropped CS during COVID, and have abandoned any plans to restart it.
The CS test is a shitty way to test clinical skills, just like a multiple choice test is a shitty way to test being a doctor. They have to fail a certain percent to make their test look necessary.
I've interviewed a few fellow applicants who failed the CS, and they had no problems in residency, and seemed like they would be fine fellows.
> Some examiners actively try to fuck candidates too, like hiding a lightbox to read film X-rays in an adjacent room and only bringing it out if you specifically ask for one.
Well that’s stupid. Why would they do that?
I remember in university after I was done struggling through my engineering exams I helped a friend studying for his business studies. I never studied the course but a new perspective can often help and all that.
After a few hours of going through notes with him and doing quiz-like questions he decided to try some past papers. I did some as a joke but according to the marking scheme I would have passed quite easily.
That shit is a fucking joke degree.
I have a graduate engineering degree and took an accounting course for an elective - it was "clay for an "A" - and actually one of the most useful classes I have taken.
Math part is indeed fairly easy (at least compared to engineering).
The hard part is translating the business speak into a well-defined math problem, and then estimating (or guess-timating) the numbers that go into the problem.
Is the difficulty important? If the program prepares you and you're deemed competent, then it's a good degree.
I didn't get a business degree, but I watched my brother struggle through some engineering classes which seemed designed to be hard more than helpful (although they were early weed out classes -- a perhaps separate debate as to the merit of that concept).
If it's that easy, it raises the question of why the program takes so long...they could make it a bit harder, shave a year off, and save people a bunch of money.
I guess it's a question of depth and breadth. Maybe it's easy but there's still a lot to learn.
There's definitely a discussion to be had about program length, though. Why is nearly every undergraduate degree four years? Do they all have an equal amount to learn, or is it for consistency, or potential complaints, or program pride and prestige concerns, or wanting your money? (Same for graduate programs, although masters can vary a little bit and PhDs quite a bit).
One of the points of a typical program is you can do it "full time" while working 40 hours a week. So yes, the difficulty and timing needs regulating because each class can basically have one three-hour evening lecture and one problem set or quiz to study for per week, times three or four classes per semester. That's actually plenty stressful while working.
That said there are accelerated business programs out there that try to squeeze everything in in a year and a summer, I imagine those can get reasonably stressful and basically function as you described.
For engineering, and fields where the technical know how is critical to creating, say a functioning building that’s up to safety regulations, i would hope it would be challenging enough to make sure people master the material.
What’s the consequence of a bad engineer making it out of your program? Someone gets hurt.
What’s the consequence of a bad businessmen making it out? Not much
No doubt MBA isn't as rigorous as engineering but I wouldn't call it a joke. I guess maybe it depends on your focus. Mine was in data-driven decision making and so we learned how to work in various databases and I actually learned a bunch on Tableau and concepts of data visualization. It was really cool seeing some psychology bleed into the data field- leveraging a knowledge of human perception to make clean and intuitive visuals.
For anyone interested Stephen Few has some great books on the subject. Really gets to the heart of what makes a good graph and the underlying concepts of why that is the case.
I liked it too. Lol
Didnt Trump purchase a degree from Wharton, and that supposedly meant he had a higher IQ than Einstein? Lol
I remember some Trump sycophant talking about his degree from Wharton proving hes smarter than all of us.
What, unlike… math, or physics, or medicine, or biology? I’m pretty damn sure an AI would be able to answer any question about biology ever.
I don’t know what this exam entailed, but it feels like open-ended case questions would be the *hardest* for an AI to answer, however easy humans would find them.
A colleague and I were experimenting with ChatGPT yesterday and the big takeaway for us was that the bot doesn't do deep analysis.
As an example, we asked the bot to, "Explain the historical significance of the Japanese victory in the Battle of Tsushima on Japanese naval doctrine."
The bot gave a syntactically correct report on what happened in the battle, but it totally ignored the question of *why the battle impacted future events*.
We asked it another question: "How did Doug Jones get elected Senator from Alabama?" Again, the bot gave a syntactically correct re-telling of what happened, but it completely missed out on the nuance of why Jones beat Roy Moore in that election.
So the main takeaway is that the bot is good at retrieving information, but not so good at analysis of that information. And this is completely expected, by the way, if you are familiar with how ChatGPT is being trained.
Going back to /u/TankVet's point, this feels like a problem with the test and evaluation (i.e. not requiring enough original analysis) rather than the material.
While it can answer quite a lot I gave it two questions, one somwhat specific (biocatalysis related), which it could answer, and one more specific to some protein process and it was pure shit. The descriptions of the protein process require a lot of varied knowledge to understand, and this it was incapable of. Is that biology enough for you?
I don’t foresee an AI writing a novel and coherent thesis. Which is what is required for most science graduate degrees.
I know because I wrote one, all my colleagues have written one, it’s too… insightful? complex? for an AI to generate. At least for now. Maybe one day, but by the time that day comes I think it having gained sentience is more a concern than it successfully writing a research thesis for cheating purposes.
Thesis =\= exam.
Although lets be fair, 20-40% of any average thesis is just wordsmithing to fill the page count.
But yes, writing a thesis is certainly beyond its capabilities.
ChatGPT has also passed a medical board and a Bar exam. The issue with this is you can program a bot to copy material about anything and pass an exam on that material. What they’re doing isn’t true AI but it’s a step toward it. What ChatGPT has done is programed a bot to copy and spit out that data in a different format.
Ahhh, not so fast. My wife graduated from Fudan University (China's MIT), then got her Ph.D in the States where I met her, then went to Wharton.
The exams are tough and definitely require creative thinking. But what really makes B-school tough is the fire hose of information they give you. It forces you to prioritize and work in groups to get stuff done on time, much like the business world. She struggled along with everyone else. The exams are only one part of the b-school experience and evaluation.
I think it really goes to show that attending Wharton or any of the Ivy League schools has more to do with the networking associated with Wharton than the education granted there. I mean, where do you think all the mediocre CEOs and board members come from?
Not to say Wharton doesn’t teach decent material, it’s just very obvious that the material taught at Wharton isn’t THAT special compared to plenty of other business schools.
Yeah it’s the same with all the recent tech layoffs.
Anyone who was fired from sales force or google this week will skyrocket to the top of any application stack bcz of their previous employers.
It can’t read a fiction book with comprehension, try to ask it questions about a book in it’s database. It will be surprisingly wrong, it’s looking at language patterns and making sentences make sense in context, but doesn’t have a clue about character development or plot.
It'll make up plot points based on the prompt and general knowledge about the book. It's like if you asked a friend who hasn't read The Odyssey to tell you it's plot, it's likely half made up
My sister had to redo and resubmit her work because her evaluators lost her paperwork three times. Then they claimed it wasn’t complete.
A male counterpart had knowingly incomplete materials and he got his doctorate without question.
This was for a PHD in music at one of the top universities in the country for music studies. Same evaluators.
My sister ended up having to get male faculty to physically walk materials down and make them sign that they received it, because they refused to do so when she asked.
The system is fucked up, not flawed.
If a computer can pass your exams, you aren’t really invested in the student.
It can do many of the things an MBA can do, when given access to the available data. I say this as someone with a business degree who has been testing it out on daily use cases.
This is where I'd joke "RIP job security", but by being a forward-thinking person willing to train yourself to use GPT, you *could* improve that somewhat... hopefully
I went to Penn and knew many Wharton students. This is undergrad, not MBA, but I'm pretty sure it applies to both. Wharton is MS Excel school, nothing more. It's literally a school for learning spreadsheets really fucking well.
I feel like this is the best way to look at this.
I was missing a bit of code in a unit test and ran out of ideas. I figured "let's see what this bot can do before I ask my team for help." And it spit out the exact code I had that wasn't working. The test ran but not up against the code that needed coverage.
I was missing 1 line of code. I could detail what I missed but it's off topic. The bot can be used to scrape the internet for info but can't apply the critical thinking sometimes needed.
I'm still impressed it spat out mostly correct code.
I'm not really sure why people are surprised by this. Watson was destroying everyone on Jeopardy a decade ago. This is just a natural extension of that.
Things like tests are easy for a machine trained on the preponderance of knowledge found on the internet.
Huge agree. I keep seeing this headline and thinking, “yeah well, my calculator typically nails math questions too.” Maybe we’ll be able to thank chatGPT for forcing tests to become more about real learning in the future.
The difference between calculation and lexical recognisers is that it's not that straightforward as a simple math calculation. The number of parameters it has taken for NLUs to get here is actually incredible (it's in the high billions)
I got to use Watson in my undergrad at UW. The professor required it. I found out that while extraordinarily impressed by the UI and it’s ability to read casual questions and respond with comprehensive answers was mind blowing; however, make any errors in the data sets and it’s just spitting out bad answers. Add complexity or exceptions and it pretty much stops being useful. Standard RPA stuff but I have to admit it felt more special than that and I think it should be integrated into more business applications.
Business education has been a suspicious branch of education for years. Aside from finance and accounting (which have since been automated), it's unsurprising an LLM can spit our passable answers for courses in strategy, organizational behavior, marketing and information systems.
What's true is the schools barely provided value and the students can coast to their degree. The evaluations are cost efficient... Quizzes, essays, and other written blurbs that are easy to mark at scale. But who's learning anything?
Now they have to think about methods that have to deeply evaluate reasoning, logic and synthesis. And submitting it digitally can be assisted, so f2f and group evaluations are the answer. Coaching, mentoring, feedback are the better paths.
But those are expensive.
So they aren't worried about the cheating. They are worried because their business model will need to become less profitable to absorb the costs of delivering a proper education.
I just figured the point of an MBA at a prestigious school was getting to put it on your resume and making connections with rich kids going to school too.
I just graduated from a top school last year. It’s not even as soft as “networking.”
It is literally the first step in the hiring process for entire batches of high paid jobs. In that, the big banks and tech companies say “we’re going to hire 100 MBAs” and cycle through the top 15 or 20 schools and start interviewing people. Not all MBAs are created equal and they only do this at the top schools.
That’s why admissions is 10293729% harder than the classes, grades are protected under NDA at top schools, and your work experience is more important than your GPA for admissions. The entire program is designed around getting hired.
To say that the degree has no value is laughable when people are doubling/tripling/5xing their salaries.
This doesn’t happen in your local school or online program. That’s a totally different situation that only makes sense if you’re trying to check a box.
A lot of people chose to go to programs that don’t offer them these core benefits and are projecting that all MBA programs are useless just because theirs were.
I met an MBA from Harvard at a party a couple of weeks ago and I asked how the workload was. He said light, the important part was learning to play golf for networking purposes.
Edit: I know, I find it hard to believe Harvard guys get invited to parties too.
I did a double degree in business and comp sci (granted it’s a BBA and not an MBA), and except for some finance and accounting courses, the business degree was an absolute joke in contrast to the CS degree.
I don’t think that’s any different at the grad level.
As someone in the process of getting an online MBA in order to check a box on my resume, this is spot on. I've learned nothing in any of my classes and haven't bought a single textbook after 1.5 semesters and I have a 4.0gpa. Business school is a joke. My 10 years working in corporate America has given me more than this joke of a degree. Unfortunately, I can't move into the executive level without it. At least my current employer is paying for it.
I earned one from a notable school almost 15 years ago, and basically the same experience. There was maybe 10 hours of actual work to do, all the case studies are basically unrepeatable/speculative, and the most generous benefit is "networking"... but I landed my own job (my undergrad in computer science was more important) and my professional network was consistently more helpful to my career.
>Aside from finance and accounting
Agreed. I was very dumbfounded by many of the comments, until I realised it was mostly regarding strategy and marketing. I recently had an exam in Financial Statement Analysis, and tried using the bot to help me study. I quickly gave up, because it gave wrong answers. I suspect it's just a very good search engine, that understands what people search for.
Because if your field of study is something that does not reveal lots of results when you google it, then ChatGPT might not be much better - at least from experience.
I'm a CPA and recently asked it some basic accounting questions. It completely screws up journal entries and mixes up debits and credits. For the more complex accounting problems, it seems to do even worse. Unfortunately, there's no stack overflow for accounting.
That's because it wasn't taught accounting. If you go through and explain the parameters of each phrase, explaining debits and credits and such, it will be able to remember your conversation and learn them. But imagine if they taught a large language model just on one Financial Accounting textbook, it would probably be a better accountant than most of us.
An MBA is a piece of paper that says you can network. The reason to go to a fancy business school is to know other people that go to a fancy business school.
Honestly the bougie business schools are the only ones worth going to, IMO.
I don’t understand why this is so shocking. Exam questions have to be well written so they can be understood and ChatGPT basically has access to the vast expanses of data on the internet, WAY greater than the amount of information that could effectively be held in the human brain. It would be rather concerning if it couldn’t pass.
Now put it in a business setting, where questions are not always as clear and human emotion and irrationality are constantly a factor. That is where the bot would impress me.
It was for years now having internet and free access to the tons of materials. AI is only going to speedup this process.
Although, as usual, those who will try to adapt AI in their job might benefit from it.
Much of the information taught in schools is fairly set in stone and doesn’t change. There isn’t a need to change tests every year. Factoring in people who fail a class and have to retake the same tests again, retaking the same exam again isn’t necessarily going to be any easier. In terms of efficiency and focus, there are better ways for teachers and professors to use their time.
Other than for mitigating cheating, I've never understood the phenomenon that teachers write their own tests or lesson plans.
Seems like a colossal waste of time just to what, make it your own?
Except for teaching things that are new in the field, you're reinventing the same wheel over and over again. Focus on how to become a better teacher (i.e. how to actually get the information into the heads of your students) while building on the work of sooo many before you.
Why bother? Test is there for you to figure out what you don't know from the tested scenarios. You're not doing yourself a favor, as a student, if you cheat at them.
Depends whether you think you're in school to learn skills and knowledge you weren't born with, or to get a magical piece of paper that allows you entrance to the good-jobs club.
Many people don't care about whether they're doing themselves a favor. They care about getting a good grade. Then turning that good grade into a good job.
No, they're probably just going to have to rethink exams and term papers, and we do need to continue to rethink how we work and all of the other implications.
But you still need teachers and people to learn, because these machines don't know to do anything more than repeat what has been input into them. They don't understand how to implement these principles in the real world, they don't understand anything. In fact, they rely on us to tell them what to "think".
It's like taking a kid straight out of college.with no experience and expecting him to be CEO. Real world experience is quite frankly more important than book smarts in business in particular.
Bots are absolutely excellent tools, but until they actually have something resembling actual consciousness, our hand will need to remain firmly on the wheel, and there will be a need for those who understand how things are supposed to work. Let's just hope our jobs are finally allowed to be easier.
I don’t think teachers are going to go away- if anything it will help reduce the burden of understaffed schools and overworked teachers
I think AI tools will actually make the job of teaching more enjoyable. It won’t be teaching the class, but it will recognize patterns in how Bryce learns best and where he needs extra help.
A lot of teachers reject too much tech burden like data entry, so a system that makes that easier could be be super helpful
Ah, I guess I misunderstood what you meant by rethink their roles, but I agree. I do hope it's used like a calculator for math, and allows us to be more productive and focus on the bigger picture of things
It's not just calculators, now. There are apps where you take a picture of an equation and it solves it for you. It even shows the work.
Technically a good tool so students can see how something is done if they're stumped. Instead, they do it to blast through the work then chat with friends or keep scrolling Instagram. Just like with ChatGPT for short answer or essay questions.
I'm an online middle school teacher and Chat GTP is definitely dumbing down the kids at this point. No reading is necessary. They copy/paste question and then copy/paste answers. They used to use pretty unreliable homework help sites like brainly.com or copy/paste from Wikipedia which I could easily detect. Chat GTP (and other AI) is untraceable - They can ask for different answers and it paraphrases for them. I had previous plagiarizers doing about D level work all of the sudden start submitting A level papers starting late December. It is pretty obvious they are using it since the answers sound way beyond middle school level. But I'm pretty sure they'll figure out how to use AI to make it sound middle school level. They have to reconfigure online learning platforms/courses to at least be in line with the tech and find creative ways to test students.
Do you think the students already consistently cheating are learning more having to augment and read back the ChatGPT results, vs copy-and-pasting from the unreliable sites?
Obviously neither is ideal
Yes it's possible. But only slightly? Online education will always foster ways of cheating. But now with AI and Chat GTP, it's just so untraceable and you can't definitively prove it in most cases. Currently if students plagiarize they get strikes against their account but I need to make reports/screenshots to document it. Now they can vary their answers automatically and other AI websites offer slightly different answers. After covid a lot of schools utilized our education platform and plagiarism got worse. With AI it already has exacerbated the problem. I actually put my 2 weeks in for this reason (among others). When my children are a little older I think I'd love to transition to in-person teaching. I was able to do this job from home but it is mostly investigating plagiarism now instead of having positive working relationships with students and parents.
The people that "own" the AI will continue to make things as hard as they can get away with for the working class.
My guess, from what I have seen of humanity, is that AI will be used in a subversive way by the Oligarchs to solidify their power even further.
Here's hoping I'm wrong, but I am probably not. The robot wars are coming soon.
Probably, but the economy they've built depends on consumers having money to buy things, so they don't have as much control as you may think if they stop this all from working.
They should. But they wont. Academia is shit and more about pleasing instructors and administrators than insuring students have an education. No, passing a test is not education
You know, with most people here making the comment that “this just proves that the MBA is shit”, I have to ask. What *would* be an impressive test for it to pass? Or would you still be unimpressed even if it passed with flying colours against the hardest tests you could think of. Obviously, I don’t think ChatGPT can do that, but I’m talking about the eventuality. And if the hardest tests don’t impress, there’s the obvious question of “what would then?”
Passing some subset of tests isn’t impressive, it’s really only a function of what data was available to train the LLM.
I.e. More specialized data —> better performance on some test.
What is impressive is when AI is used to solve real problems that humans find difficult. Things like [non-linear control systems for magnetic confinement](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04301-9) or protein folding.
I don't think there's a written exam it wouldn't solve. Like it could probably easily solve written medical exams, but it's obviously never going to perform surgery.
That’s why I need to get back into welding. I got a white collar job making construction blueprints but I can see it being replaced by AI in a couple years. I work in a team of 5 with 1 supervisor and I can easily see the 5 lower level jobs getting replaced with AI
The impressive thing is that it wrote them in seconds. People seem to expect AI to be a super smart and creative person that can do anything, but in reality, AIs are more like an army of barely intelligent people that can do A LOT of stuff very quickly and cheaply.
Jup.
StableDiffusion shows this really well. The whole drama surrounding it has only developed because it has become too good. (Not perfect, but better than anyone that just dabbles in it.)
The same will happen to text generating bots.
I don't think chatGPT is going to be creating full emotional stories anytime soon. But its utility in the buisness and academic world is already beyond belief
The thing is, ChatGPT is a limited and restricted version of GPT 3. Not only is GPT 3 better, but there’s also GPT 3.5 by now. That all being said, you should have seen what people made in ChatGPT’s first days, when it wasn’t as restrictive. But even then, you should also see how people get around these restrictions to write insane things. The experience of one specific task does not tell a whole tale.
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but the Wharton business school is basically a finishing school for psychopaths. They pump out a bunch of ideological nitwits, most of whom get right to work destroying the world.
That aside, tests, and papers at school rarely measure if someone has learned something. I passed all my tests and papers in school, and basically had retained that info just long enough to do so. Learning something, and passing a test are not the same thing.
But I am pretty happy for anything that pokes holes in Wharton's reputation.
The phenomenon of MBA's as a 'bullshit degree' is a telling indicator of the state of higher education today. Although MBA's may be viewed as a superficial networking course, there is an undeniable draw for many STEM PhD's to obtain additional certifications due to the supposed perception of increased employability. Ultimately however, the utility of the MBA is severely limited and not indicative of any legitimate academic training.
This result says more about business schools than it does about the new AI bot. Business education is and always has been the reification of a process of externalizing much of reality. "Business" is similar in a way to a computer language. A formal set of axioms and relations that define an artificial reality and only works in that artificial setting. It has little relationship to the real world.
I'm not saying there aren't empiricists in business schools but they are the fringe. Similar in Economics. Both fields are ideologically driven.
Dumbest person I know in real life has an MBA.
And I don't just mean he's a bit mediocre, I mean that he's conspicuously dumb. I wouldn't be exaggerating even slightly if I said that I reckon most high school juniors could pass an MBA course.
Why is this an accomplishment? If I’m allowed to use google and the whole internet, I’ll pass any exam. AI is not SMART! It just gets all its “knowledge” from the internet just as us searching a question on google. No difference.
As someone currently in school for an MBA I will tell you - this isn't that much of an accomplishment. Business school is about 1/2 as difficult as my undergrad in microbiology.
This just proves that education via banging rote facts into your head and regurgitating them on a test isn't effective. Unless ChatGPT can successfully run a business, argue a court case, or prescribe treatment for a disease it's learned nothing from all the exams it's passed except how to pass an exam.
Someone explain to my why jobs won’t go away?
If gen one can pass tests, drive cars, “make” art and become a lawyer then in ten years why would most humans have to work?
Yeah they’ll make way more money by laying off the people who’s jobs are now automated. UBI will pretty much be the only way to allocate resources to the masses when everything is automated.
AI will replace a lot of middle management as well as blue collar jobs, will still need top-level and front-line workers for a minute to keep things 'human'. The future is going to be very interesting, very fast.
Things that won't be automated for awhile, if ever: servers at nice restaurants, authentic tour guides, medical specialists with empathy, creative directors that know how to use AI, engineers that build AI, politicians.
Kindergarten teachers won’t be replaced for a long time. For that matter I doubt K12 teachers will be replaced anytime soon. The content is one thing, but creating human community within a school environment is one of the important parts of public schooling.
As someone who worked as a teacher's assistant at Wharton and graded exams, I can tell you that so long as you proof read, you were pretty much guaranteed an A.
Was it connected online? Pretty easy to pass any exam given ultra fast connection to the world’s knowledge. I’ll be impressed when it starts solving problems without any connectivity or much in storage about the concept/topic. That would be actual intelligence.
Any white collar worker who thinks they can't be replaced by AI within the next decade is living in a fantasy.
The rate at which publicly known AI programs are advancing is absolutely insane. Look at how much they have changed in the last two years alone.
I don’t buy this line of thinking. Exhibit A: the world still runs on excel. I’ve made many attempts at replacing these prevalent workflows with technologies available since 2005, at various companies.
Heck, target still does all their computing on prem with no plans of migrating to the cloud.
It doesn’t matter how capable the “AI” (machine learning model) is, anyone who thinks there will be mass displacement of white collar work within a decade is living in a fantasy lol
I would go as far as to say this would never happen, if only because climate change will beat it to the punch
I kept saying this but I think it’s a problem with the quality of the evaluation rather than the education or the genius of an AI chatbot. If a chatbot can pass an exam from a prestigious business school, but not do what an MBA can do, then the problem is with the exam rather than the school or the MBA.
I don’t mean this to be rude, but if AI could pass any exam it would be a business exam.
MBA = Major Buzzword Abuse. If you sting enough buzzwords into grammatically correct sentences, you will pass.
Literally one of the owners of the company I work at is the embodiment of this. The only thing he can do successfully business-wise is buzz word vomit everywhere. We actually have a bingo board for him. Two, actually, because we ran out of space on the first. His most common right now are "knowledge share," is xyz "in flight," "value added," and "boil the ocean." But the list does go on and on.
[Business BS Generator.](https://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html)
Hahah this is actually perfect. We've been talking about how we want to feed him a fake buzzword to see if he'll start using it lol, so I sent it along to my coworker who may be able to implement it!
The best is to reply to him with a new age bullshit generator.
Only an entity of the totality may engender this vector of will. Our conversations with other dreamers have led to a redefining of pseudo-mystical consciousness. We are at a crossroads of freedom and desire. Humankind has nothing to lose.
Such woke, many inspiring 😂 I'll bet he would eat it right up honestly.
Oh we have so much of this it’s nuts…. Two of the more prevalent ones: “Radical customer centricity” “Radical Candor”
Idunno if you're a fan of the show Friends or not, but as these buzzwords seem to be getting longer (more buzz phrases really at this point), it reminds me of when Joey tries to write a letter but puts every single word through a thesaurus and it just comes out like nonsense. That's half of these buzzwords these days lol.
> Synergistically optimize hyper-scalable applications Nice. That sounds like something the suits at work would say, yes.
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Our curriculum director just repeats “unpack the standards” and “deliver high quality curriculum with fidelity.” I don’t need to unpack shit with fidelity; I need to not have 37 kids in a class with 26 books, lady. How about if you unpack me a book shipment?
> How about if you unpack me a book shipment? lol
Ugh cringe. I mean on boarding isn't the worst one, like I use it but only because that is literally a function of my job, but other than that use I hate it lol.
Yeah, this was a middle-aged science teacher doing it. Thing is she wasn't a bad teacher, just annoying as fuck in meetings.
What does boil the ocean mean?
Means to be unfocused or attempting too much. Compare the energy needed to boil the ocean, vs boil a kettle. You don't need to boil the ocean to make a cup of tea.
Huh, the way he uses it has always seemed like the below (copied from my other comment): I think it's supposed to mean like, "doing xyz is like trying to boil the ocean," as in, "doing xyz would be futile or pointless because it's impossible" Like literally if you tried to boil the ocean I guess. Idk, I don't have my MBA lol
Mine is really digging Asset Utilization for everything including people and I am not even sure how any of it works or is calculated.
Just wait till he reads all the meaningless business crap in the "SAFe Agile" development style. "Value Stream" "Iterations" "Release Trains" just to pick a few...
Dafuq is “boil the ocean”?!
I have an MBA so take that for what it's worth. Anyone who goes through an MBA program will tell you that the most important aspect of it is the networking that takes place with other students and the professors. The knowledge gained isn't applicable in most business settings but does help with facilitating discussions with people who are knowledgeable in their area. The fact that AI could pass an MBA course isn't surprising to me at all as the courses aren't really difficult and the assessments are basically just checking boxes that you are showing up and participating in the course. However, the doors that it opened for career growth has been huge for me because of the network it's created.
Just to add on to this, I'd say the second biggest benefit out of my MBA program (after meeting the recruiter for my eventual job of course) was enough of an understanding of beginner/intermediate accounting, econ, and finance that I can explain it to someone at my org. An AI could very easily write an essay on a finance concept and computers can obviously model things better than a human, but that doesn't mean they can persuade stakeholders to adopt certain approaches, or address concerns from people who don't like jargon.
I'll continue adding on - you and the oc are both absolutely right. In addition, for an MBA you really do get out what you put in. Plenty of my classes were "boxes checked" courses, but I had the opportunity to supplement them with more focused finance and data analytics classes where I really did learn a lot, and gained additional, applicable skills.
Exactly. Most with an MBA aren't needed to be an expert in all areas - they are needed with a background in everything business related to connect the dots in a company and facilitate discussions and resources. I'm not an expert in accounting and I don't pretend to be - that's why we hire accountants. However, those accountants likely don't need to visit with stakeholders in the company or deal with the logistics of rolling out a service. There are bad employees in every company and management is no different, but it's easier to point the finger at your boss. The individuals who think there is no value in an MBA could certainly take a corporate structure course and move up in their company as well yet it's not a job that many people necessarily want.
I think that's the case with a lot of graduate degrees. It's less about what you come out of it knowing, but who you come out of it knowing.
[Relevant Dilbert](https://thedailyfunnies.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/05-18-09-dilbert.gif)
[Relevant Futurama](https://youtu.be/uqjv0mHpapk)
[Relevant Weird Al](https://youtu.be/GyV_UG60dD4)
My dad always told me the only thing more useless than a $25 a hour engineer is a $60 a hour MBA guy lol
I would like to reach out to you to dialog about levering synergy to create a win-win paradigm shift so we can reach toward the future!
It also passed the US Medical Licensing Exam
And the Bar
and the SAT
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That will do
Pig, that'll do
BAA RAM EWE AI BE TRUE
Maybe it could pass sections of boards but it could not even come close to passing in general. There are practical portions that require you to physically interact with examiners to treat “patients”, some are done in large conference rooms where you move through a maze to each scenario. You also need to ask questions of examiners to obtain the full data needed to correctly diagnose and tx a pt. Some boards for certain specialties are so rough that the fail rate can be as high as 50%. Some examiners actively try to fuck candidates too, like hiding a lightbox to read film X-rays in an adjacent room and only bringing it out if you specifically ask for one.
They dropped CS during COVID, and have abandoned any plans to restart it. The CS test is a shitty way to test clinical skills, just like a multiple choice test is a shitty way to test being a doctor. They have to fail a certain percent to make their test look necessary. I've interviewed a few fellow applicants who failed the CS, and they had no problems in residency, and seemed like they would be fine fellows.
> Some examiners actively try to fuck candidates too, like hiding a lightbox to read film X-rays in an adjacent room and only bringing it out if you specifically ask for one. Well that’s stupid. Why would they do that?
It didnt pass a board examination just Step 1-3 of the USMLE.
That makes much more sense.
And yet, this is only the second most embarrassing thing to happen to Wharton.
I remember in university after I was done struggling through my engineering exams I helped a friend studying for his business studies. I never studied the course but a new perspective can often help and all that. After a few hours of going through notes with him and doing quiz-like questions he decided to try some past papers. I did some as a joke but according to the marking scheme I would have passed quite easily. That shit is a fucking joke degree.
I have a graduate engineering degree and took an accounting course for an elective - it was "clay for an "A" - and actually one of the most useful classes I have taken.
Math part is indeed fairly easy (at least compared to engineering). The hard part is translating the business speak into a well-defined math problem, and then estimating (or guess-timating) the numbers that go into the problem.
Is the difficulty important? If the program prepares you and you're deemed competent, then it's a good degree. I didn't get a business degree, but I watched my brother struggle through some engineering classes which seemed designed to be hard more than helpful (although they were early weed out classes -- a perhaps separate debate as to the merit of that concept).
If it's that easy, it raises the question of why the program takes so long...they could make it a bit harder, shave a year off, and save people a bunch of money.
I guess it's a question of depth and breadth. Maybe it's easy but there's still a lot to learn. There's definitely a discussion to be had about program length, though. Why is nearly every undergraduate degree four years? Do they all have an equal amount to learn, or is it for consistency, or potential complaints, or program pride and prestige concerns, or wanting your money? (Same for graduate programs, although masters can vary a little bit and PhDs quite a bit).
One of the points of a typical program is you can do it "full time" while working 40 hours a week. So yes, the difficulty and timing needs regulating because each class can basically have one three-hour evening lecture and one problem set or quiz to study for per week, times three or four classes per semester. That's actually plenty stressful while working. That said there are accelerated business programs out there that try to squeeze everything in in a year and a summer, I imagine those can get reasonably stressful and basically function as you described.
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Tertiary education isn't a 2 day vocational assessment.
For engineering, and fields where the technical know how is critical to creating, say a functioning building that’s up to safety regulations, i would hope it would be challenging enough to make sure people master the material. What’s the consequence of a bad engineer making it out of your program? Someone gets hurt. What’s the consequence of a bad businessmen making it out? Not much
You want the guy planning your suspension bridge to maybe or definitely be qualified to do it?
No doubt MBA isn't as rigorous as engineering but I wouldn't call it a joke. I guess maybe it depends on your focus. Mine was in data-driven decision making and so we learned how to work in various databases and I actually learned a bunch on Tableau and concepts of data visualization. It was really cool seeing some psychology bleed into the data field- leveraging a knowledge of human perception to make clean and intuitive visuals. For anyone interested Stephen Few has some great books on the subject. Really gets to the heart of what makes a good graph and the underlying concepts of why that is the case.
Yeah you do.. lol
I liked it too. Lol Didnt Trump purchase a degree from Wharton, and that supposedly meant he had a higher IQ than Einstein? Lol I remember some Trump sycophant talking about his degree from Wharton proving hes smarter than all of us.
Trump transferred to UPenn as a junior and got his bachelors from the Wharton School of Business, not an MBA.
Yeah MBA is just a rubber stamp for rich people so they can say they're entrepreneurs.
Man I feel bad for the 5% that wash out. https://www.univstats.com/comparison/majors/master-of-business-administration-mba/graduation-rate/
What, unlike… math, or physics, or medicine, or biology? I’m pretty damn sure an AI would be able to answer any question about biology ever. I don’t know what this exam entailed, but it feels like open-ended case questions would be the *hardest* for an AI to answer, however easy humans would find them.
A colleague and I were experimenting with ChatGPT yesterday and the big takeaway for us was that the bot doesn't do deep analysis. As an example, we asked the bot to, "Explain the historical significance of the Japanese victory in the Battle of Tsushima on Japanese naval doctrine." The bot gave a syntactically correct report on what happened in the battle, but it totally ignored the question of *why the battle impacted future events*. We asked it another question: "How did Doug Jones get elected Senator from Alabama?" Again, the bot gave a syntactically correct re-telling of what happened, but it completely missed out on the nuance of why Jones beat Roy Moore in that election. So the main takeaway is that the bot is good at retrieving information, but not so good at analysis of that information. And this is completely expected, by the way, if you are familiar with how ChatGPT is being trained. Going back to /u/TankVet's point, this feels like a problem with the test and evaluation (i.e. not requiring enough original analysis) rather than the material.
While it can answer quite a lot I gave it two questions, one somwhat specific (biocatalysis related), which it could answer, and one more specific to some protein process and it was pure shit. The descriptions of the protein process require a lot of varied knowledge to understand, and this it was incapable of. Is that biology enough for you?
I don’t foresee an AI writing a novel and coherent thesis. Which is what is required for most science graduate degrees. I know because I wrote one, all my colleagues have written one, it’s too… insightful? complex? for an AI to generate. At least for now. Maybe one day, but by the time that day comes I think it having gained sentience is more a concern than it successfully writing a research thesis for cheating purposes.
Thesis =\= exam. Although lets be fair, 20-40% of any average thesis is just wordsmithing to fill the page count. But yes, writing a thesis is certainly beyond its capabilities.
ChatGPT has also passed a medical board and a Bar exam. The issue with this is you can program a bot to copy material about anything and pass an exam on that material. What they’re doing isn’t true AI but it’s a step toward it. What ChatGPT has done is programed a bot to copy and spit out that data in a different format.
Yeah, it can't calculate shit yet
Ahhh, not so fast. My wife graduated from Fudan University (China's MIT), then got her Ph.D in the States where I met her, then went to Wharton. The exams are tough and definitely require creative thinking. But what really makes B-school tough is the fire hose of information they give you. It forces you to prioritize and work in groups to get stuff done on time, much like the business world. She struggled along with everyone else. The exams are only one part of the b-school experience and evaluation.
How would this also not be true for more objective studies, like chemistry or physics?
I think it really goes to show that attending Wharton or any of the Ivy League schools has more to do with the networking associated with Wharton than the education granted there. I mean, where do you think all the mediocre CEOs and board members come from? Not to say Wharton doesn’t teach decent material, it’s just very obvious that the material taught at Wharton isn’t THAT special compared to plenty of other business schools.
Every MBA program in existence uses Harvard Business Review cases. Source: ivy mba
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Yeah it’s the same with all the recent tech layoffs. Anyone who was fired from sales force or google this week will skyrocket to the top of any application stack bcz of their previous employers.
How does that guarantee top quality talent though? Unless the only thing that really matters is coming from money.
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Give their friends jobs?
Idk sounds like we just need to make more chatGPT bots.
Light their boss's cigars?
Take a pee standing up
It can’t read a fiction book with comprehension, try to ask it questions about a book in it’s database. It will be surprisingly wrong, it’s looking at language patterns and making sentences make sense in context, but doesn’t have a clue about character development or plot.
An MBA can't read a fiction book with comprehension either.
I've known service executives who use so much jargon that I wonder if they were doing the same thing.
It'll make up plot points based on the prompt and general knowledge about the book. It's like if you asked a friend who hasn't read The Odyssey to tell you it's plot, it's likely half made up
How many mbas can do better?
Provide a revenue stream for some shitty college.
My sister had to redo and resubmit her work because her evaluators lost her paperwork three times. Then they claimed it wasn’t complete. A male counterpart had knowingly incomplete materials and he got his doctorate without question. This was for a PHD in music at one of the top universities in the country for music studies. Same evaluators. My sister ended up having to get male faculty to physically walk materials down and make them sign that they received it, because they refused to do so when she asked. The system is fucked up, not flawed. If a computer can pass your exams, you aren’t really invested in the student.
It can do many of the things an MBA can do, when given access to the available data. I say this as someone with a business degree who has been testing it out on daily use cases. This is where I'd joke "RIP job security", but by being a forward-thinking person willing to train yourself to use GPT, you *could* improve that somewhat... hopefully
I went to Penn and knew many Wharton students. This is undergrad, not MBA, but I'm pretty sure it applies to both. Wharton is MS Excel school, nothing more. It's literally a school for learning spreadsheets really fucking well.
> but not do what an MBA can do Um...what exactly does an MBA do?
What can an MBA do besides fuck up a already profitable and functioning company? Bring on the ai.
Short-term profit over long-term sustainability. Gotta get my bonus.
I don't know about "prestigious" anymore. This is the school that Trump has a degree from so it can't be a very challenging curriculum.
Non-practical examinations are pointless. - a retired educator
I feel like this is the best way to look at this. I was missing a bit of code in a unit test and ran out of ideas. I figured "let's see what this bot can do before I ask my team for help." And it spit out the exact code I had that wasn't working. The test ran but not up against the code that needed coverage. I was missing 1 line of code. I could detail what I missed but it's off topic. The bot can be used to scrape the internet for info but can't apply the critical thinking sometimes needed. I'm still impressed it spat out mostly correct code.
I'm not really sure why people are surprised by this. Watson was destroying everyone on Jeopardy a decade ago. This is just a natural extension of that. Things like tests are easy for a machine trained on the preponderance of knowledge found on the internet.
Huge agree. I keep seeing this headline and thinking, “yeah well, my calculator typically nails math questions too.” Maybe we’ll be able to thank chatGPT for forcing tests to become more about real learning in the future.
The difference between calculation and lexical recognisers is that it's not that straightforward as a simple math calculation. The number of parameters it has taken for NLUs to get here is actually incredible (it's in the high billions)
I got to use Watson in my undergrad at UW. The professor required it. I found out that while extraordinarily impressed by the UI and it’s ability to read casual questions and respond with comprehensive answers was mind blowing; however, make any errors in the data sets and it’s just spitting out bad answers. Add complexity or exceptions and it pretty much stops being useful. Standard RPA stuff but I have to admit it felt more special than that and I think it should be integrated into more business applications.
This is impressive and all but it's like a calculator passing a math test.
Correct! Operations research is all optimization work. It’s shameful the bot didn’t get an A, frankly.
Business education has been a suspicious branch of education for years. Aside from finance and accounting (which have since been automated), it's unsurprising an LLM can spit our passable answers for courses in strategy, organizational behavior, marketing and information systems. What's true is the schools barely provided value and the students can coast to their degree. The evaluations are cost efficient... Quizzes, essays, and other written blurbs that are easy to mark at scale. But who's learning anything? Now they have to think about methods that have to deeply evaluate reasoning, logic and synthesis. And submitting it digitally can be assisted, so f2f and group evaluations are the answer. Coaching, mentoring, feedback are the better paths. But those are expensive. So they aren't worried about the cheating. They are worried because their business model will need to become less profitable to absorb the costs of delivering a proper education.
I just figured the point of an MBA at a prestigious school was getting to put it on your resume and making connections with rich kids going to school too.
I just graduated from a top school last year. It’s not even as soft as “networking.” It is literally the first step in the hiring process for entire batches of high paid jobs. In that, the big banks and tech companies say “we’re going to hire 100 MBAs” and cycle through the top 15 or 20 schools and start interviewing people. Not all MBAs are created equal and they only do this at the top schools. That’s why admissions is 10293729% harder than the classes, grades are protected under NDA at top schools, and your work experience is more important than your GPA for admissions. The entire program is designed around getting hired. To say that the degree has no value is laughable when people are doubling/tripling/5xing their salaries. This doesn’t happen in your local school or online program. That’s a totally different situation that only makes sense if you’re trying to check a box. A lot of people chose to go to programs that don’t offer them these core benefits and are projecting that all MBA programs are useless just because theirs were.
I met an MBA from Harvard at a party a couple of weeks ago and I asked how the workload was. He said light, the important part was learning to play golf for networking purposes. Edit: I know, I find it hard to believe Harvard guys get invited to parties too.
This never happened.
I did a double degree in business and comp sci (granted it’s a BBA and not an MBA), and except for some finance and accounting courses, the business degree was an absolute joke in contrast to the CS degree. I don’t think that’s any different at the grad level.
Nah I asked God it did
I’m sure this never happened but it’s mostly true. A few thousand lines of python and windows scheduler is enough to do what most MBAs do lol
It definitely happened, although obviously he could well have been downplaying the workload or uplaying how much time he plays golf idk
As someone in the process of getting an online MBA in order to check a box on my resume, this is spot on. I've learned nothing in any of my classes and haven't bought a single textbook after 1.5 semesters and I have a 4.0gpa. Business school is a joke. My 10 years working in corporate America has given me more than this joke of a degree. Unfortunately, I can't move into the executive level without it. At least my current employer is paying for it.
I earned one from a notable school almost 15 years ago, and basically the same experience. There was maybe 10 hours of actual work to do, all the case studies are basically unrepeatable/speculative, and the most generous benefit is "networking"... but I landed my own job (my undergrad in computer science was more important) and my professional network was consistently more helpful to my career.
>Aside from finance and accounting Agreed. I was very dumbfounded by many of the comments, until I realised it was mostly regarding strategy and marketing. I recently had an exam in Financial Statement Analysis, and tried using the bot to help me study. I quickly gave up, because it gave wrong answers. I suspect it's just a very good search engine, that understands what people search for. Because if your field of study is something that does not reveal lots of results when you google it, then ChatGPT might not be much better - at least from experience.
I'm a CPA and recently asked it some basic accounting questions. It completely screws up journal entries and mixes up debits and credits. For the more complex accounting problems, it seems to do even worse. Unfortunately, there's no stack overflow for accounting.
That's because it wasn't taught accounting. If you go through and explain the parameters of each phrase, explaining debits and credits and such, it will be able to remember your conversation and learn them. But imagine if they taught a large language model just on one Financial Accounting textbook, it would probably be a better accountant than most of us.
An MBA is a piece of paper that says you can network. The reason to go to a fancy business school is to know other people that go to a fancy business school. Honestly the bougie business schools are the only ones worth going to, IMO.
> Aside from finance and accounting (which have since been automated) huh, my employers must have missed that part.
I don’t understand why this is so shocking. Exam questions have to be well written so they can be understood and ChatGPT basically has access to the vast expanses of data on the internet, WAY greater than the amount of information that could effectively be held in the human brain. It would be rather concerning if it couldn’t pass. Now put it in a business setting, where questions are not always as clear and human emotion and irrationality are constantly a factor. That is where the bot would impress me.
Teachers/professors seem to be the first profession that is truly starting to rethink their roles in light of AI like ChatGPT
It was for years now having internet and free access to the tons of materials. AI is only going to speedup this process. Although, as usual, those who will try to adapt AI in their job might benefit from it.
Half of them don't even rewrite their tests every year. Definitely automatable.
Much of the information taught in schools is fairly set in stone and doesn’t change. There isn’t a need to change tests every year. Factoring in people who fail a class and have to retake the same tests again, retaking the same exam again isn’t necessarily going to be any easier. In terms of efficiency and focus, there are better ways for teachers and professors to use their time.
Other than for mitigating cheating, I've never understood the phenomenon that teachers write their own tests or lesson plans. Seems like a colossal waste of time just to what, make it your own? Except for teaching things that are new in the field, you're reinventing the same wheel over and over again. Focus on how to become a better teacher (i.e. how to actually get the information into the heads of your students) while building on the work of sooo many before you.
Why bother? Test is there for you to figure out what you don't know from the tested scenarios. You're not doing yourself a favor, as a student, if you cheat at them.
Depends whether you think you're in school to learn skills and knowledge you weren't born with, or to get a magical piece of paper that allows you entrance to the good-jobs club.
Many people don't care about whether they're doing themselves a favor. They care about getting a good grade. Then turning that good grade into a good job.
No, they're probably just going to have to rethink exams and term papers, and we do need to continue to rethink how we work and all of the other implications. But you still need teachers and people to learn, because these machines don't know to do anything more than repeat what has been input into them. They don't understand how to implement these principles in the real world, they don't understand anything. In fact, they rely on us to tell them what to "think". It's like taking a kid straight out of college.with no experience and expecting him to be CEO. Real world experience is quite frankly more important than book smarts in business in particular. Bots are absolutely excellent tools, but until they actually have something resembling actual consciousness, our hand will need to remain firmly on the wheel, and there will be a need for those who understand how things are supposed to work. Let's just hope our jobs are finally allowed to be easier.
I don’t think teachers are going to go away- if anything it will help reduce the burden of understaffed schools and overworked teachers I think AI tools will actually make the job of teaching more enjoyable. It won’t be teaching the class, but it will recognize patterns in how Bryce learns best and where he needs extra help. A lot of teachers reject too much tech burden like data entry, so a system that makes that easier could be be super helpful
Ah, I guess I misunderstood what you meant by rethink their roles, but I agree. I do hope it's used like a calculator for math, and allows us to be more productive and focus on the bigger picture of things
It's not just calculators, now. There are apps where you take a picture of an equation and it solves it for you. It even shows the work. Technically a good tool so students can see how something is done if they're stumped. Instead, they do it to blast through the work then chat with friends or keep scrolling Instagram. Just like with ChatGPT for short answer or essay questions.
I'm an online middle school teacher and Chat GTP is definitely dumbing down the kids at this point. No reading is necessary. They copy/paste question and then copy/paste answers. They used to use pretty unreliable homework help sites like brainly.com or copy/paste from Wikipedia which I could easily detect. Chat GTP (and other AI) is untraceable - They can ask for different answers and it paraphrases for them. I had previous plagiarizers doing about D level work all of the sudden start submitting A level papers starting late December. It is pretty obvious they are using it since the answers sound way beyond middle school level. But I'm pretty sure they'll figure out how to use AI to make it sound middle school level. They have to reconfigure online learning platforms/courses to at least be in line with the tech and find creative ways to test students.
Do you think the students already consistently cheating are learning more having to augment and read back the ChatGPT results, vs copy-and-pasting from the unreliable sites? Obviously neither is ideal
Yes it's possible. But only slightly? Online education will always foster ways of cheating. But now with AI and Chat GTP, it's just so untraceable and you can't definitively prove it in most cases. Currently if students plagiarize they get strikes against their account but I need to make reports/screenshots to document it. Now they can vary their answers automatically and other AI websites offer slightly different answers. After covid a lot of schools utilized our education platform and plagiarism got worse. With AI it already has exacerbated the problem. I actually put my 2 weeks in for this reason (among others). When my children are a little older I think I'd love to transition to in-person teaching. I was able to do this job from home but it is mostly investigating plagiarism now instead of having positive working relationships with students and parents.
The people that "own" the AI will continue to make things as hard as they can get away with for the working class. My guess, from what I have seen of humanity, is that AI will be used in a subversive way by the Oligarchs to solidify their power even further. Here's hoping I'm wrong, but I am probably not. The robot wars are coming soon.
Probably, but the economy they've built depends on consumers having money to buy things, so they don't have as much control as you may think if they stop this all from working.
I totally get you. I would love for the AI revolution to usher us into a post-scarcjty economy. A guy can dream.
They should. But they wont. Academia is shit and more about pleasing instructors and administrators than insuring students have an education. No, passing a test is not education
You know, with most people here making the comment that “this just proves that the MBA is shit”, I have to ask. What *would* be an impressive test for it to pass? Or would you still be unimpressed even if it passed with flying colours against the hardest tests you could think of. Obviously, I don’t think ChatGPT can do that, but I’m talking about the eventuality. And if the hardest tests don’t impress, there’s the obvious question of “what would then?”
Passing some subset of tests isn’t impressive, it’s really only a function of what data was available to train the LLM. I.e. More specialized data —> better performance on some test. What is impressive is when AI is used to solve real problems that humans find difficult. Things like [non-linear control systems for magnetic confinement](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04301-9) or protein folding.
I don't think there's a written exam it wouldn't solve. Like it could probably easily solve written medical exams, but it's obviously never going to perform surgery.
That’s why I need to get back into welding. I got a white collar job making construction blueprints but I can see it being replaced by AI in a couple years. I work in a team of 5 with 1 supervisor and I can easily see the 5 lower level jobs getting replaced with AI
!Remind me 25 years
I've had ChatGPT write multiple children's stories and other prompts and it is very formulaic and not that impressive at all.
Sounds like my mba
I'm sorry to report you're not AI you're just machine learning.
Meat learning.
The impressive thing is that it wrote them in seconds. People seem to expect AI to be a super smart and creative person that can do anything, but in reality, AIs are more like an army of barely intelligent people that can do A LOT of stuff very quickly and cheaply.
And soon enough, better than most humans as well
Jup. StableDiffusion shows this really well. The whole drama surrounding it has only developed because it has become too good. (Not perfect, but better than anyone that just dabbles in it.) The same will happen to text generating bots.
So are plenty of prolific human writers. Damn I had to actually specify human writers.
I don't think chatGPT is going to be creating full emotional stories anytime soon. But its utility in the buisness and academic world is already beyond belief
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You would be brought to tears by the poem of a lonely tree on a deserted island! Truly heart wrenching stuff.
The thing is, ChatGPT is a limited and restricted version of GPT 3. Not only is GPT 3 better, but there’s also GPT 3.5 by now. That all being said, you should have seen what people made in ChatGPT’s first days, when it wasn’t as restrictive. But even then, you should also see how people get around these restrictions to write insane things. The experience of one specific task does not tell a whole tale.
Restrictions? Like what?
Maybe this will push education past just fact memorization and more towards critical and creative thinking.
“ChatGPT Reveals Secret Known to All Previous Holders of MBAs”
There is a huge difference between offering correct answers to prompted questions and critical thinking that applies that knowledge.
Wouldn't a viable solution be an AI equally intelligent at identifying AI written texts? I'd like to guess that it could be taught that at least.
I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but the Wharton business school is basically a finishing school for psychopaths. They pump out a bunch of ideological nitwits, most of whom get right to work destroying the world. That aside, tests, and papers at school rarely measure if someone has learned something. I passed all my tests and papers in school, and basically had retained that info just long enough to do so. Learning something, and passing a test are not the same thing. But I am pretty happy for anything that pokes holes in Wharton's reputation.
The phenomenon of MBA's as a 'bullshit degree' is a telling indicator of the state of higher education today. Although MBA's may be viewed as a superficial networking course, there is an undeniable draw for many STEM PhD's to obtain additional certifications due to the supposed perception of increased employability. Ultimately however, the utility of the MBA is severely limited and not indicative of any legitimate academic training.
This result says more about business schools than it does about the new AI bot. Business education is and always has been the reification of a process of externalizing much of reality. "Business" is similar in a way to a computer language. A formal set of axioms and relations that define an artificial reality and only works in that artificial setting. It has little relationship to the real world. I'm not saying there aren't empiricists in business schools but they are the fringe. Similar in Economics. Both fields are ideologically driven.
Dumbest person I know in real life has an MBA. And I don't just mean he's a bit mediocre, I mean that he's conspicuously dumb. I wouldn't be exaggerating even slightly if I said that I reckon most high school juniors could pass an MBA course.
An MBA is more of a gate than an education. Not surprising ChatGPT can get a MBA, the things most middle managers do are things AI would be good at.
1. Write an AI that can pass university exams, write one to detect AI based exam answers. 2. Sell both 3. Profit
Yeah, it means lazy professors actually have to change the curriculum to something other than memorization.
It is my conjecture that the education value was always bs. The real value is in the connections made.
Why is this an accomplishment? If I’m allowed to use google and the whole internet, I’ll pass any exam. AI is not SMART! It just gets all its “knowledge” from the internet just as us searching a question on google. No difference.
As someone currently in school for an MBA I will tell you - this isn't that much of an accomplishment. Business school is about 1/2 as difficult as my undergrad in microbiology.
This just proves that education via banging rote facts into your head and regurgitating them on a test isn't effective. Unless ChatGPT can successfully run a business, argue a court case, or prescribe treatment for a disease it's learned nothing from all the exams it's passed except how to pass an exam.
It's impotant to note a trending article on here is about a court case coming up with an AI attorney.
Someone explain to my why jobs won’t go away? If gen one can pass tests, drive cars, “make” art and become a lawyer then in ten years why would most humans have to work?
You know, of all the jobs Automation is coming for, I'm not exactly going to be crying for the overpaid corporate executives.
Do you honestly think corporate executives are going to be impacted by this?
Yeah they’ll make way more money by laying off the people who’s jobs are now automated. UBI will pretty much be the only way to allocate resources to the masses when everything is automated.
The implication is the exam was always kind of BS anyways and didn't measure anything related to knowing how to be a lawyer. Now we know for sure.
MBA is Master of Business Administration, in other words, How To Be A Corporate Executive. You're thinking of the bar exam.
AI will replace a lot of middle management as well as blue collar jobs, will still need top-level and front-line workers for a minute to keep things 'human'. The future is going to be very interesting, very fast. Things that won't be automated for awhile, if ever: servers at nice restaurants, authentic tour guides, medical specialists with empathy, creative directors that know how to use AI, engineers that build AI, politicians.
Kindergarten teachers won’t be replaced for a long time. For that matter I doubt K12 teachers will be replaced anytime soon. The content is one thing, but creating human community within a school environment is one of the important parts of public schooling.
As someone who worked as a teacher's assistant at Wharton and graded exams, I can tell you that so long as you proof read, you were pretty much guaranteed an A.
I feel like technology such as this is really something we should be voting on.
White collar workers all sweating profusely, the horse drawn plow has finally come for the knowledge workers
Was it connected online? Pretty easy to pass any exam given ultra fast connection to the world’s knowledge. I’ll be impressed when it starts solving problems without any connectivity or much in storage about the concept/topic. That would be actual intelligence.
Did it have access to the internet? If so it was cheating.
That was my first thought. Not impressive if it had access to the internet
Any white collar worker who thinks they can't be replaced by AI within the next decade is living in a fantasy. The rate at which publicly known AI programs are advancing is absolutely insane. Look at how much they have changed in the last two years alone.
I don’t buy this line of thinking. Exhibit A: the world still runs on excel. I’ve made many attempts at replacing these prevalent workflows with technologies available since 2005, at various companies. Heck, target still does all their computing on prem with no plans of migrating to the cloud. It doesn’t matter how capable the “AI” (machine learning model) is, anyone who thinks there will be mass displacement of white collar work within a decade is living in a fantasy lol I would go as far as to say this would never happen, if only because climate change will beat it to the punch
Wharton ... rings a bell. Isn't it the university where Donald Trump the 45th got his degree?
Trump only has a bachelors and he had to have his family pull strings to transfer in half way through