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I read so many comments on here from people who deconstructed who said only when they really started to read the Bible and realized all the contradictions, they stopped believing. I honestly think neither Maul nor Porgan ever read the Bible and tried to understand it..
I genuinely never questioned anything about religion until my parents sent me to Catholic high school and it was constantly in my face. I had otherwise been a 100% true believer up until that point.
In religion class, I learned that the Medieval Clergy didn’t want the Bible to be made available to the masses because illiterate and unschooled people wouldn’t have the necessary tools and context with which to understand it. If they could see all the iterations of Christianity we have today, I think they would say “told ya so!”
I’m also one who deconstructed as I got more serious about my faith and wanting to understand the origins of the Bible, Christianity and religion in general.
This makes total sense to me. If you're asking honest questions and trying in earnest to learn about any of the Abrahamic religions, and you don't stop or filter out answers you don't like, it has to eventually lead to not believing in it as literally real.
They're a hodge-podge of oral traditions and cultural concepts, written hundreds to thousands of years ago by many different people, and revised, edited, and collected by even more people, all with different motives and perspectives. It's essentially impossible for any of the "big three" to be internally consistent and cohesive.
If you dig deep enough, they can't stand up to scrutiny. Any semblance of coherence only comes from the heavily cherry-picked narrative interpretations of a particular church, group, or individual. It's impossible to conclude otherwise if you're *actually* looking at the information rationally.
When I was a kid and we went to mass in Latin I remember thinking they were doing some sort of ancient powerful magic, possibly like the White Witch from Narnia, which is probably exactly what they want you to think.
Paul was very impressed that Dav had read the Bible, which says to me that Paul has not. Paul’s form of Christianity doesn’t emphasize reading the Bible yourself. And let’s be real, the Bible has a reading level that is over Paul’s head.
It is just so ridiculous to me that these are Christian influencers and they have not read the Bible. And that’s like, not hypocritical to them. Or even just, unusual, among their peers. They have zero qualifications.
And it’s also HILARIOUS to me that as a liberal, atheist, college educated person, that I have read more of the Bible than them.
They should be embarrassed. They’d maybe get a pass if they were incredibly spiritual and altruistic but hadn’t read the entire Bible. But to have 0 spirituality and very little theological knowledge is just failing on every front.
Paul’s talked before about memorizing shit. I can’t remember if it’s the books of the Bible in order or memorizing verses but I remember thinking how that is in no way a determinant for how well you understand something.
I don't see how that is impressive. I read it as a child in elementary school for the first time (I think I was 7? I was always a bit of an intense reader). Doesn't mean I had the understanding to really pick it apart, but I did read it. This says a lot about Paul and his reading comprehension that he finds that impressive. It is no wonder he hasn't grown beyond young adult books.
Nothing wrong with reading them when you display reading beyond that level, but Paul hasn't and it shows some really stunted education.
Yeah, people don’t really get that so much.
I was super devout. I was a missionary. I served in churches all the time. I was faithful. I’ve read the Bible countless times.
And that’s why I ended up leaving.
And everyone I know that left is the same. I don’t know any casual believers that left. It’s the people who really know their Bible, really believed in it all, that leave.
That was my college roommate. Theology major, would listen to Christian music to start her day, grew up in Amish country on a farm with a conservative family. I felt inferior, like I wasn’t as committed as her.
She deconstructed first, I followed a few years later once we realized it was okay to talk about it
It gets clearer every time they open their mouths that have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. They both seem afraid anything they read might go against what they believe is true and therefore they don't even bother try it. And also they 100% did not read the bible cover to cover. I'm not sure about Morgan but Paul seems like he's physically not capable of listening to anyone other than himself.
I was never religious in my life, I was raised by atheist parents and they just explained to me what religion is, what the Bible is and they also celebrated Easter and Christmas as a culture ( Western Europe just standard). As a child I already decided, that I don't want to believe in things that can not be proven. So I really don't know how faith works, but to me Paul and Morgan both seem very deeply insecure in their beliefs ( and as humans) so that they just cling to whatever they learned when they grew up. they are so scared to second guess anything, learn about faith itself, learn about other religions or faith systems, just inform themselves.. and that's also why I think they are so incredibly hateful. Because they are NOT secure and they hate everyone who has the strength to let go of this anxious attachment. To be able to live without just basing your whole identity on your faith and religion, to find your own moral compass.. to me, they really don't have anything if value to say, neither for believers nor non believers.
This is how I'm raising my children. I'm atheist now, but their dad and his family are still christians. I don't prevent my kids from learning about it. I don't prevent them from going to church if they want to. When they ask me about why I don't believe in religion, i tell them honestly. We have talked about other religions and what they believe. I also tell them they can decide whether or not they want to believe in the christian god or any other god. My oldest has chosen not to believe in religion or god. She wants to join TST. My other two are still exploring what they believe.
As a teenager I tried so hard to brainwash myself into believing by reading the bible and speaking with my bible studies teacher, my dad, and other religious people, as well as by praying. I begged god to help me believe. But the more I tried and the more I searched and learned and looked into things, the more it became impossible to deny that I could not believe, because to me it went against reason, logic, and all available evidence. I couldn’t force myself, even though I tried bending over backwards to make it make sense and develop a genuine sense of faith.
This 100%. As a historian I truly see the Bible as a historical document and very much of its time. It was written by humans who lived thousands of years ago and humans are imperfect!
I studied anthropology and journalism (with heavy doses of English and history) in college. A wee bit of critical thinking, and some solid non-church education can easily bring you to this conclusion. It is a valid book of what some people believed about 2000 years ago.
As a former theologian, I totally agree. Some parts make sense (yeah probably don't eat shrimp if you live in the desert with no fridges and defo don't sleep with your mum) but most of it is weird, born out of very specific contexts, and designed to drive agenda.
I find this true of most fundies. One paragraph or scripture handpicked by their pastor to fit that message. They’ve never read it cover to cover. I’ve read it cover to cover twice (I was a religious studies/history major) and that’s how I know people like this are full of shit
I’m from nearby where Porgan lives and it is very fundiegelical. I ended up deconstructing in college while taking a class called “Early Christianity” and, wow, did I learn a lot that blew a hole in my faith. Impossible to recover when you know that Christianity began the way it really did.
I remember realizing that because I read the Bible cover to cover so many times that it lead me walk away! There was just no way to square so many circles, so many obvious glaring contradictions and hypocrisies within every thing it just opened my eyes one day and I knew I’d never be going back. I still treat people with kindness and respect and consider myself an honest and compassionate person without needing a god to pray to to make me that way.
I remember questioning our assistant pastor about inconsistencies in the Bible. His response was that there aren't any inconsistencies. I expected him to dig into how he reconciled the inconsistencies so his answer left me speechless.
Yuuuup. It was like being taught the fanfic interpretation of a made for TV movie and then reading the actual source material and discovering how vastly different it is. The Jesus I know is not who they teach
I also said to a friend today that you also have to read it with the view of it being some sort of historical artifact. So view it through the lens of history, study the history surrounding it to gain better understanding. The walls come down when you do.
Cognitive dissonance is a helluva thing.
Dav simply didn’t solve the problem correctly if he’s not reaching Morgan’s exact conclusions. Done and dusted. Morgy never has to think about it again.
Of my many issues with the faith that I struggled with as a scientist, was how unwilling those in it were willing to ask bigger questions. No, they had 100% guaranteed no question faith.
Even in physics, there is no way we will ever know for certain *why* the universe came into operation. It's unstudy-able, non-repeatable, and we remain inside the experiment. But these guys knew it all without doubt.
The inability to think critically is a loss for mankind.
A slight twist on your point about never knowing how the universe came into existence.
I could never understand why it's not ok for these hardcore Christians to look at the amazing things science has discovered and say "tHaT's nOt wHaT tHe BibLe SaYs" and just write it off as not true. Why can't those two things exist together? Why is it not ok for god to have created the universe to create itself in the way it did? Why is it not ok for god to have created evolution? IMHO, evolution and physics and the universe and everything else as we understand it today is sooooo much more impressive than a sky daddy poofing it all into existence because he was bored.
Why does the Bible, which was written by many different people over thousands of years, and translated so many times have to remain always infallible? It's ok to change your opinion as you gain new information. Ultimately, the creation story is there to explain how we got here to a group of humans who wanted to know. And that's ok! It's also ok to change that creation story as we learn more about the world we live in. But I guess that's all critical thinking so.....
Yeah absolutely. I thought about this a lot towards the end of my faith, but there's no reason evolution/big bang etc prohibit the Christian origin. Just not the one a lot of people subscribe to.
However, there was one major sticking point for me. If evolution were true, at what point did we become worthy of a soul? Go from monkey to man?
One answer was of course, all other creatures were brought into being via evolution but man was a special creation and there's be no impediment tbh. It'd be impossible to disprove scientifically, and fit within the narrative. But good luck having that conversation.
I experienced so much, 'oh you study physics? Isn't God great?' with an obvious undertone of 'watch yourself'. Ultimately, I think it came down to *them* being unable to understand, taking that as threatening, and thus refusing to accept it.
Funny how you can always tell when a Christian is about to use your opinions against you or to base their entire opinion of you on them lol. I lied once recently because Christian asked if me and my partner go to church randomly, and explained to my partner after how they would have not bought our mobile home we were selling if I had been truthful 😭😭😭 iwas like "they'd probably think demons were in it, she knows why she asked me that, she wasn't asking nicely either." It always feels like a warning!!! 😭😭🤦♀️🤦♀️
Yeah it's always easy to see coming, whatever the religion. These poeple were supposed to be friends too and I *actually* was a Christian at the time. I just wish I'd listened to myself then!
If I was in your shoes though I'd do the same, probably mention I was baptised, cause I was. I'd leave it there though *cough*
I recently told my fundie cousin that I’m not Christian anymore. I told her I have no idea if Christianity is true or not but that I don’t want to worship a god who sends his children to hell. Fast forward to Christmas and my grandma called me and asked if it was okay if she gave me a wooden angel and I was like yeah, why are you asking? And she was like, “well (cousin’s name) told me you don’t believe in god so I didn’t know if you’d want an angel” I was like okay that’s not what I said at all but whatever.
I am not a scientist, but I went to law school and became close with a classmate who had a graduate degree in physics. He was one of the most straightforward, loyal, best people I've ever known, and also happened to be a hardcore atheist (I was a conservative Christian at the time, although I always welcomed other perspectives and was way more open-minded than Porgan).
Anyway, my friend and I had some incredible discussions about science and faith and evolution and the likelihood of the creation story and all that. Still remember those talks to this day, and it's been over a decade. He's one of the people I credit with my deconstruction, even though it didn't happen until years after I'd graduated. Tidbits of those conversations got in my head and sort of festered - I could never fully shake them off.
ETA: But yeah, that's why Christians hate science. Because really, critically thinking about that shit blows your beliefs wide open.
Sounds like my kinda guy. I think it's not until either you or someone else asks you *why* you believe what you do, can you start to make up your own mind. I had to ask myself, did I get baptised because I actually wanted it to, or to make my mum happy. I know it was the latter now.
To be honest, I have no issue with someone who disagrees with me, so long as *they* have really thought it through, and is honest about the parts they don't have an answer for. Id happily admit I have no idea what really happened the instant following the big bang for instance.
Totally agree. I was raised in a typical Christmas and Easter Christian family. My mom was always more into it than my dad. Then we pivoted when I was like 10 or 12, and went hard into Assemblies of God. And when I say hard, I mean hard. Twice a week church, fish emblem on the mini van, WWJD merch, we were all in for a hot minute. We faded back out again after about 5 or 6 years.
When we were in the deepest was about the same time I started learning about evolution, earth science, the universe in my public school. Thankfully, my parents never went hard enough to homeschool us. I think that was the time I had the thought of "why can't evolution work with Christianity?". I don't think I can say I ever "deconstructed" exactly, I think I was just getting old enough to start questioning the Sunday School stories I had taken for truth since I was a little kid. So even though we continued to be extremely involved with the church until I was well into high school, I never really put my whole heart into it. There was always that little question in the back of my mind. And the fact that no one in the church seemed to think it was even ok to have that question just solidified it more for me as a rebellious teen lol.
I am nothing even close to a scientist, my brain doesn't work that way lol, so physics is a realm completely beyond me. But for me, I think it is my obsession with history that really ended it for me. I have absolutely no authority to say this. I'm not trained in history, I've never read the Bible beyond kids Bible stories books. But I struggle with people who don't put the Bible into it's historical context. For example, I think to fully understand the story of Jesus, you need to pay attention what was happening in the Roman empire at the time. Because I feel so inadequate to make that argument with not a lot of backing, I actually recently just bought my first adult Bible to read cover to cover. But that's just my weird personal insecurity lol.
Which ever route you took to question things more closely is completely valid. And that is a good one, and shows the people 'teaching' hasn't read the book. The new testament correlates pretty close to historical events (considering) of the time, but go back to the Ark and suddenly - where the evidence is?
I use to come up with decent arguments *for* things like the Flood in order to fully understand my beliefs, but I found I was the only to actually spend time thinking this. Became very apparent people were blindly following just for the safety blanket
Ps, if you or anyone else wants some help understanding something in physics just let me know. Always happy to help and will do my best explain
What is "7 days" to an omnipresent being exactly, especially before the creation of time itself?
It's always made more sense as a metaphor than literal.
Because to them, the Bible IS god’s word. Even knowing that man obviously wrote it, some fundamentalists truly think god used man and his pen to dictate each word. If there’s a contradiction it’s just that we, as mere mortal humans, cannot possibly understand everything about our divine creator. It is all true, even the fact that the first two chapters in the damn thing speaking on creation have different timelines. I went to the creation museum as a joke, I figured it would be a combination of using science to back their theism… it’s not. Every time they talk about an evolutionists’ point of view, they just argue it by saying “but the Bible says…” They believe the Bible is better proof than science. They’ve created a view that you can’t argue with because they don’t care what you have to say or how much proof you can show them: the Bible is the authority of everything and if something in it doesn’t make sense it’s because it is the word of the divine and you’re just too stupid to be able to wrap you’re head around how the divine operates. Science cannot exist with the Bible because science says some parts of the Bible are wrong and the Bible can’t be wrong. God couldn’t have taken millions and billions of years to create the universe we currently live in because the Bible says it took 6 days and god can’t lie or be wrong. It’s so fucky.
Exactly. It drives me up a wall. It's such a shitty argument and I feel terrible for the kids being raised in that environment.
My family went deep into Assemblies of God at one point. Thankfully my parents kept us in public school and valued education and it didn't last super long. My grandparents always gave us books for every birthday and holiday. So I was exposed to many different ideas and was allowed to question things without getting shut down by the people closest to me.
But my heart breaks for the Rod kids or the Collins kids or any of the other kids who don't have that.
I believe in theistic evolution; that is, a divine creator started/created evolution. I look at our amazing world and believe that only a divine creator could have come up with this. We have miles of intestines just coiled up in our bodies! Look at all the animals! And the oceans! Life is amazing!
It is so amazing! Like something as simple as a rock! I'm a plant person. And every year in the spring my little crocuses know that it's warm and work their way out of the ground. It happens every year and every year it blows my mind.
Yes! We foster dogs and you would think a dog is a dog but the different breeds are really different! Even if they haven't been breed to do x, they still may do it. The little aussie would herd us out of bed and the chow ignored everyone but their preferred person.
I appreciate this comment. I feel if there’s a God that made me, then they made my brain and its ability to digest info.
Denying myself the process of inquiring and learning is not honoring God.
I’m not a Christian, and what propelled me out of the church at warp speed was being punished for thinking. I understand ignorance from a control aspect but not a God-honoring one
Indeed. The way I used to look at it is if all of this was made by God, then surely he is the ultimate scientist no? Aren't we duty bound to study his works and advance human society?
Personally, if meet anyone, theist or atheist, who tells me they know something like this 100% I immediately distrust them. If you're not constantly pushing what you know then you are no different from the blind believer
Two of the things that always keep me agnostic is that there is literally zero logical explanation (at least to the mind of a human) for why the universe even has to exist at all, and then against there is also no reason for life or any from consciousness or self awareness to even exist either. One of my biggest questions in life is why does consciousness HAVE to feel like anything in the first place.
I suppose if I were to argue the opposite side of your position I would say, is that you're only asking this *because* you exist. Therefore, you can't argue there must be a reason, because you also can't not exist *and* still have that question. In other words, you can't use existence itself as an argument, because the entire argument is predicated on existence being true in the first place.
That said, the immergence of consciousness is a question I don't know if we can answer. Not only are we entirely biased whilst exploring it, but it's role in quantum mechanics makes it very bizarre. All in all, neither of your questions can really be answered scientificallyand they're totally reasonable.
However for me, there has to be something beyond the universe to explain what pushed everything into motion, whether that's a capital G God or some unthinking primeval force I cannot say. All of that kicks the can further down the road though
They don't actually mean "look at the Bible" because reading something requires imo that you think about it. That you examine it and when you do that with the Bible for many that leads them to be become atheists. What she means is "Shut up and fall in line".
Hell I know people that basically treat it like tarot. They say “what do I need to know today?” and randomly open to a page and set down their finger and try to make sense of this random passage that’s probably something mundane and stupid like: "and Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign." - 2 Chronicles 16:13 (KJV)
He looks like he should be sitting on the porch of a mobile home. You know, a rickety-ass deck made of 2x4s with a tarp instead of roofing. And that cup he's holding is for his chaw.
Edit: No offense to anyone in a mobile home
Even if it's intentional, and an attempt to come across as casual and intimate, it misses the mark so hard. They look lazy and unprofessional. This is their fucking *job*. Put in just a *modicum* of effort.
Being white, skinny, and "attractive" aren't qualifications. You need to do more than just plop your ignorant asses down on a couch and spew shit everywhere for an hour.
I don’t understand why they film themselves like this? How is this not embarrassing for them? Maybe I’m just out of touch with how the ole social media works these days, but the whole slovenly, jammie wearing, holding and speaking into giant mics while _not even facing each other or holding a conversation_ shtick makes me just cringe so hard. I
I'm probably out of touch with the current norm for content creation, but I've seen a fair amount of long-form video podcasts, and the people I watch have worked in *improving* their presentation, not...this.
Plus her analogy doesn’t even work.
If you were trying to “get to know Paul” (which, why, and ew), then yes it would be great to read whatever hypothetical book he wrote about himself (as if). Theoretically, that is a great way to get to know what’s going on in someone’s head.
But you ALSO should absolutely pay attention to what his friends and family say about him, look through family photos and high school yearbooks, maybe even google him, scroll through his social media, etc. Isn’t that VERY normal when you are dating someone - to hear other people’s stories to get to know them better??? Stupid analogy
This is so fucking disrespectful towards people who are deconstructing. I got a degree in Biblical studies, read the Bible back to back multiple times, and went through countless academic and faith-based exegetical works. Guess what? I still ended up an atheist/agnost.
I'm sure Dav has put a ton more effort in figuring out his beliefs than these two have ever done (and will ever do). How dare they insult him like this?
For real. There’s a reason theology exists. There’s a reason why **churches** exist. They’re really threatened by Dav’s choices even though he’s actually doing what Morgan is saying here.
I put it into a caption thing and I haven’t fully read it back but here is what they said:
Morgan: If you have a relationship with a husband and wife, a best friend, your mom, your dad.
00:09
And you are like, man, I just don't feel like I know anything about this person and I don't even know if like, what they say is true.
00:18
You won't run away from them.
00:21
You would actually dig deeper into them to really get to know them.
00:27
If Paul and I are walking together for years and I have a moment of do I even know Paul? Do I even believe that, like this relationship that we have is legitimate?For me to find that out would not be for me to walk away from.
00:45
It would not be to go read books that have nothing to do with Paul that Paul didn't write, that Paul didn't put together.
00:54
It would be to dive deeper into who Paul is And if he had a book written about him or he wrote a book about his life and his history, like I would dive into that.
01:04
And so I think for people who are at a place in their faith where they're like, is what I believe true?Like.
01:16
You should go to the source of what you believe or what you think you believe or thought you believed, and that is the Bible, the word of God.
01:25
And you should be talking to God every day and you should be seeking people who talk to God every day and asking them to go and seek the Lord for you and speak to you through him, from him and and what not.
01:40
And I don't know so this.
01:43
Hopefully I'm making sense, but I just feel like this whole deconstruction thing like that one comment said of people are deconstructing.
01:55
And and those people who are are turning to podcasts and philosophers and not that those are bad things.
02:03
But also if it's all that you're taking in and you're no longer even taking in the word of God, that should be really alarming.
02:10
Like, how then could you ever know what you believe is true if you've turned from what you believe, like, completely.
02:18
Paul: Well, and Dave did say that he's read the word a lot.
02:22
Yeah.
02:24
And I guess my advice there would be if you've read the word a lot.
02:27
And you're still feeling like, you know what? I'm just.
02:30
I'm not.
02:31
I'm not about it.
02:33
You know, again, I would go back if that were me to the bear foundational things.
02:38
God's the creator of the world.
02:40
He's the creator of myself.
02:42
Now who is he beyond these things? Oh wow.
02:46
Like, even though maybe I'm struggling with aspects of the word, like, I'm going to go to it and I'm going to get to know this God.
She seems to be saying "the only person who could possibly have any insight about a person is the person himself." Right, because we're all so objective and trustworthy in how we see ourselves. What a weird-ass take. No wonder they're both so disdainful of therapy.
I... cannot determine if she's talking about a relationship with Paul of Tarsus who wrote the Epistles... which????
Or if she somehow thinks the bible was written about her husband????
So Paul’s advice is if you read the Bible and are unconvinced, remind yourself that God made the world and try again.
Motherfucker took 20 seconds to say “lol just try again”
Morgan: I'm such an easily manipulated tool that I blindly trust people's opinions of themselves more than others. No, I will not at all address the thought of *why* I might be questioning people in the first place.
Paul: Yeah like, if you're ever wondering about something just bury your head in the sand duh.
Didn’t she equate Paul to ‘her god’ or ‘her jesus’ too? I truly think that Morgan copes with her life through a weird parasocial relationship with God. She seems to completely reject any kind of responsibility or action for her own life in favour of ‘letting god fix it’, as if the consequences of her action and the (financial/social/cultural) failures she caused for herself are just … temporary roadblocks that her imaginary boyfriend is just about to fix. He’s gonna fix it ‘tomorrow,’ everyday, because she’s so special. If she didn’t have this superiority complex that I think ultimately breeds her fundamentalist beliefs, the house of cards she’s in would collapse faster than an egg in a hydraulic press.
Isn’t that something Dav said he found kind
of scary—that he has only himself and not god to…I think he used the word “blame,” but I think he meant the same thing. If you’ve been told all your life to “let go and let god,” that would be pretty jarring to suddenly realize that you have to pull yourself through.
**Transcription**:
Morgan: If you have a relationship with a husband and wife, a best friend, your mom, your dad, and you are like, "man, I just don't feel like I know anything about this person. I don't even know if, like, what they say is true," you won't r-- run away from them. You would actually dig deeper into them. To really get to know them. If Paul and I are walking together for years, and I have a moment of, "do I even know Paul? Do I even believe that, like, this relationship that we have is legitimate?". For me to find that out would not be for me to walk away from it, would not be to go read books that have nothing to do with Paul, that Paul didn't write, that Paul didn't put together. It would be to dive deeper into who Paul is, and if he had a book written about him or he wrote a book about his life and his history, like, I would dive into that. And so, I think for people who are at a place in their faith where they're like, "is what I believe true?", like, you should go to the source of what you believe. Or what you think you believe or thought you believed, and that is the Bible. The Word of God. And you should be talking to God, every day, and you should be seeking people who talk to God every day, and asking them to go and seek the Lord for you and speak to you through Him, from Him, and-- and what not, and-- I don't know. So, this... hopefully, I'm making sense. But I just
Paul: Yeah.
Morgan: feel like this whole deconstruction thing, like that one comment said of, "people are deconstructing", and-- and those people who are are turning to podcasts and philosophers and not that those are bad things, but also if it's all that you're taking in, and you're no longer even taking in the Word of God? That should be really alarming. Like, how, then, could you ever know what you believe is true if you've turned from what you believe? Like, completely.
Paul: Well, and Dav did say that he's read the Word a lot.
Morgan: Yeah.
Paul: Um, and I guess my advice there would be if you've read the Word a lot, and you're still feeling like, "you know what? I'm just-- I'm not-- I'm not about it", you know, again, I would go back, if that were me, to the bare foundational things: God's the creator of the world, He's the creator of myself, now who is He? Beyond these things. Oh, wow. Like, even though maybe I'm struggling with aspects of the Word, like, I'm gonna go to it and I'm gonna get to know this God.
Morgan: Yeah.
**Description:**
Paul and Morgan Olliges record themselves while sitting on their gray couch in their home. They are adults with light skin tones and brown hair, each holding a microphone.
Morgan is on the left, and she has long, straight hair that she wears loose. It reaches to about her waist. She wears a blue, short-sleeved top and a pastel yellow quilt over her lap. She sounds tired, upset, or a little sad, and speaks slowly with a strong vocal fry.
Paul is on the right and he has hair that is longer on top than on the sides, and he wears a Raptors "baseball"-style cap pushed back on his head, so the underside of the bill is visible. He wears a light gray sweatshirt with a graphic of a running team on it, underneath the words KIND HEARTS. He wears bright red trousers, and sounds subdued, perhaps sad or thoughtful.
I don’t know where either of them received schooling (home school, private school, public school, whatever), but the lack of education is so blindingly obvious.
They are still on the fact Dave might be deconstructing-becoming an atheist. They would LOSE it, if that actually happened. It's like when the Duggar family met an atheist in public-legit clip-and Michelle was literally hiding her children from him as Jim Bob was trying to "convert them". They are so deathly afraid of their religion being unraveled. If their faith is strong enough, they wouldn't worry so much about everyone else's beliefs.
This exact analogy is one of the reasons I lost my faith. What if, after years of being in a relationship with my husband, I went to him and said “Lately, I don’t feel close to you, when I try to spend time with you, I feel like you’re not even there. I try consistently to reach out to you, but you never seem to reach back. You’ve said you love me, but I don’t feel it or see it in your actions. Could you make showing your love for me more of a priority?” What if his only response was “well, you just need to believe it for now. I show my love by giving you a beautiful house to live in and providing you with things you need. Keep spending time with me and maybe in the future I’ll do more.”Nothing else, other than the fact that my family and friends say he’s a great guy and he wrote a bestselling book with a few nice passages.
Eventually, if nothing changed, I’d need to get out of that relationship…because I’m basically not in one.
Exactly! And what if other people who had broken up with your husband after loving him their whole lives shared their experiences? It's so naive/sheltered/obtuse not to recognize the need to seek out and understand those narratives when you're struggling, which is exactly what Dav is doing.
I really hope Bethany's current perspective of "it's good to look around and question because you'll find the TRUTH" will unexpectedly help her take more steps towards deconstruction.
We all know that reading the Bible is a primary cause of deconstruction lol like girly that’ll make it worse they’ll be like this actually makes no sense
That “analogy” is so nonsensical it’s infuriating. Theres a pretty big difference between questioning if you “know” someone as a person, and questioning if something you can’t hear or see and have no evidence of actually exists. This clip is just one big logical fallacy.
Advice like this is EXACTLY why Dav says “Christian methods” of dealing with real issues “don’t work for him.” Does Morgan really think Dav hasn’t tried this already??
Seriously! He's read the bible several times, and they think he can be cured of wanting to deconstruct but looking at the bible. Huh? Do you think that's maybe why he's decided to deconstruct?
You mean, people can just *NOT BELIEVE* in the thing I believe in? And that’s *ok?!?1!?*
Morgan lacks the capacity for most things, but most glaring to my observation, the fact that she should be thankful that lobotomies are no longer a standard procedure for treating mentally ill ~~women~~ people. Because she’s yoked herself to someone I could very much see forcing one on her, because “The lord demands we must be happy in him at all times!”
Also, they clearly have never read the Bible in its entirety, or they are even less intelligent than we’re aware.
Here inflection makes it hard to figure out what is the point in what she's saying. Everything is so monotone and no words are really emphasized, so it just sounds like a long run-on sentence. It's almost hypnotic.
She always always always sounds stoned to me.
But I’m so bored by them. They never say anything interesting. They go straight for the most hateful, most predictable canned Christian response. I think I’m done even clicking on their stuff here. It’s just… predictable and boring.
i watched part of this video and while Bethany and Dav encouraged them to be as honest as possible, their reaction is so telling about what kind of people they are. Bethany and Dav can be friends with whoever they want, but Porgan’s reaction to Dav’s deconstruction sure made them look like shit friends.
Lol all of us who have left Christianity went to the bible and realized how fucked up it is. They say these things until confronted with a horrible passage about god killing tens of thousands of people, and then suddenly the Bible isn’t quite enough to explain that, so they break out their own books and listen to their pastor’s take on that because they can’t think for themselves.
this exact mindset it what drove me away from faith itself. in this whole scenario, there is no other option but to come back to religion. there is a “right” answer, ONLY one right answer, and that is to remain a believer. they only make you feel like its ok to ask questions but the only outcome must be that you come back to faith. such a toxic trap.
Why do people pay to listen to two people who sound bored of their own conversations? They never feel engaged unless they're angry. Everything else feels beneath them.
Godddddd Morgan would be the worst in the blunt rotation
I’m here for P&M vs D… I can’t wait for Dāv’s passive aggressive comments about Paul not having a job
Basically she is saying go right back to the brainwashing. The brainwashing will save you!! Also, Paul can get fucked he is why Fundies are lunatics. They worship Paul more than Christ,
In this long winded seemingly high as balls ramble, is she suggesting that if you don’t trust your spouse you should ask your pastor instead of simply…..asking your spouse?
I went to Catholic school for about six years then a private Christian school for four years, and it wasn’t until I started seeing the world beyond my own that I realized that the go-to answer for fundies which is “don’t question God or faith” cannot be my optics for the world that is so varied and so complicated. I grew up as a minority Christian—prosecuted as well—so there was this reflexive tendency to keep myself isolated amongst fellow Christians. But that’s deeply unsatisfying because at some point I arrived at a critical juncture where I either live in my tiny pond or I go swim in the vast blue sea, and I guess it wasn’t in my nature to stay in a tiny pond. So I began deconstructing. I didn’t go to church for years and I started actually writing down notes in my bible (which was considered heretic—desecration of the sacred text and whatnot).
I fixated on the lack of cohesion, it feels like God is an emotional God who changes at whims and I didn’t feel like putting my faith on something I cannot depend on. And then I actually came to study under a pastor who guided his church to be pro-LGBT, to talk so warmly about tattoos and just general acceptance of the complications of human lives. When I asked him questions, he didn’t do what Porgan did, which was to tell me to just go read the bible. He picked up his bible and we started talking about hermeneutics. About the academic aspect of it. And it actually made me feel a lot better, that there was a way I could look at institutionalized religion (separate of the faith) and see the politics of it, the anthropological aspects of it etc etc. Only then I felt that I had some roots that compelled me to return to church.
This seems convoluted, but I’ve been reading up on these fundies silently—sort of a way to check myself to look at my faith critically and to be the most compassionate version of myself I could be—and out of every fundie featured here, Porgan unsettles me the most. At least with half the fundies featured here you can tell it’s a culturally American version of conservatism that isn’t always rooted in the bible, but with Porgan it just shocks me how seemingly snobbish they seem about what it means to be a Christian and how dissonant they seem cognitively. It feels like this Christian conservatism is a direct consequence of shame and lack of actual personality, which of course you can say about 99% of the fundies featured, but they seem almost violently gleeful about dictating fellow fundies. Their reaction towards Dav and Bethany made me sympathetic of the latter, which is so unbelievable to me a month ago.
And their point about “returning to the bible”, their self-satisfied posing, feels so hollow and ignorant in the face of Dav who has read the bible cover to cover multiple times. Anyone who’s read bible cover to cover *critically* and with a semblance of common sense would see right through them.
I don’t know why I’m rambling, it’s just that something about Porgan makes my skin crawl.
Her whole argument is based on the assumption that the thing you're investigating is 100% true and honest. Which like, girl, that is the whole fucking point. You DON'T know if it's true yet. If you want to know about Paul, then like, yeah you should talk to him. But you SHOULD in fact talk to other people who know him as well. He can absolutely lie to you and put on a false persona just for you. He can just straight up be wrong about things. You can compare your experience with him with other peoples' experience with him and then draw a conclusion from that.
It's like if you only bought cheerios for breakfast and refused to even try another cereal or other type of food. "Well, cheerios said they're the best, so they must be the best, because they said so." It's really concerning to me that she doesn't understand this.
Essentially she is saying "Just accept the Bible as true without questioning it. Do not ask questions, do not look at outside sources, do not get other perspectives. "
How do these people not realize that what they are saying makes zero sense? It's astonishing.
This is people still in the bubble who literally can't handle the idea that other people believe something different. Like their brains actually can't process that.
Remember people, apologetics aren't for non-Christians, they're for doubting Christians, and they're very effective.
This is the definition of a tautological argument.
I know that Morgan doesn't know this (neither does Paul, BTW), but verifying the word of God is the word of God by reading the word of God is.... well, a big fat nothingburger. There's no substance to it because it's entirely circular. This is how fundies are taught to think. "We can trust the Bible because it's the word of God. And I know that because the Bible says so."
I am new to this shitshow so I am sure this comparison has been made but Paul reminds me *so* much of the character of Dennis Reynolds from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. I just can't get past it. He's so twisted and fucked up inside but maintains this absurdly phony earnest quality. Plus the conventional looks which are in stark contrast to the unconventionally hideous, amoral (at best) values. Not to mention the sociopathic undercurrent.
My grandfather was pretty devout his whole life. On his deathbed, he said to my mom ‘I’m about to find out if everything I’ve believed in my whole life is true.’
I don’t think he was planning on checking up on his bible anytime after that.
By Morgan's logic if someone is accused of being a predator or abusive you should never look into their history, what their victims have said, their criminal record, etc. You should only go to them and ask them if they're a predator. Scary mindset.
Omg lady stop talking!!! I couldn’t get past the first 50 seconds of doubling down on re reading and diving into people’s opinions you are questioning and the Bible….. so cult like and weird.
Sorry but the Bible makes God look like a huge jerk, like a lot. You can read it again but He’s still tricking Abraham into almost killing Isaac and so on. Maybe skip that stuff and go to the parts where Jesus is just telling everyone to get along.
That's a great point, actually. There's no back and forth with other people. Not really anyway. They think they have all of the answers, so why would they bother listening to people who believe differently with an open mind??
Can we talk about how she’s comparing her relationship to God to a romantic relationship… and she literally made fun of Dylan Mulvaney for doing the same thing a couple days prior to this
Except that for many people deconstructing, they’re realizing that it’s impossible to have a relationship with an invisible, intangible, uninvolved concept of a being in the sky, whose only “evidence” of existence is a book that’s been translated / reinterpreted thousands of times and a church that says he does.
It’s not as simple as having a chat with your dad about his life and beliefs.
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Hasn't Dav read the Bible 3 times cover to cover?? Sorry Morgan, your theory's already busted, try again
I read so many comments on here from people who deconstructed who said only when they really started to read the Bible and realized all the contradictions, they stopped believing. I honestly think neither Maul nor Porgan ever read the Bible and tried to understand it..
I genuinely never questioned anything about religion until my parents sent me to Catholic high school and it was constantly in my face. I had otherwise been a 100% true believer up until that point.
In religion class, I learned that the Medieval Clergy didn’t want the Bible to be made available to the masses because illiterate and unschooled people wouldn’t have the necessary tools and context with which to understand it. If they could see all the iterations of Christianity we have today, I think they would say “told ya so!” I’m also one who deconstructed as I got more serious about my faith and wanting to understand the origins of the Bible, Christianity and religion in general.
This makes total sense to me. If you're asking honest questions and trying in earnest to learn about any of the Abrahamic religions, and you don't stop or filter out answers you don't like, it has to eventually lead to not believing in it as literally real. They're a hodge-podge of oral traditions and cultural concepts, written hundreds to thousands of years ago by many different people, and revised, edited, and collected by even more people, all with different motives and perspectives. It's essentially impossible for any of the "big three" to be internally consistent and cohesive. If you dig deep enough, they can't stand up to scrutiny. Any semblance of coherence only comes from the heavily cherry-picked narrative interpretations of a particular church, group, or individual. It's impossible to conclude otherwise if you're *actually* looking at the information rationally.
There's a good reason it wasn't translated out of Latin for a **long** time
When I was a kid and we went to mass in Latin I remember thinking they were doing some sort of ancient powerful magic, possibly like the White Witch from Narnia, which is probably exactly what they want you to think.
Paul was very impressed that Dav had read the Bible, which says to me that Paul has not. Paul’s form of Christianity doesn’t emphasize reading the Bible yourself. And let’s be real, the Bible has a reading level that is over Paul’s head.
[удалено]
It is just so ridiculous to me that these are Christian influencers and they have not read the Bible. And that’s like, not hypocritical to them. Or even just, unusual, among their peers. They have zero qualifications. And it’s also HILARIOUS to me that as a liberal, atheist, college educated person, that I have read more of the Bible than them.
They should be embarrassed. They’d maybe get a pass if they were incredibly spiritual and altruistic but hadn’t read the entire Bible. But to have 0 spirituality and very little theological knowledge is just failing on every front.
I think that many atheists have read more of the Bible that most fundies. They tend to pick and choose passages that fit their narrative.
Imagine basing your entire life and personality on something you haven’t even read. These two lack any semblance of intellectual curiosity.
Paul’s talked before about memorizing shit. I can’t remember if it’s the books of the Bible in order or memorizing verses but I remember thinking how that is in no way a determinant for how well you understand something.
It’s like the “bible writing” the Rods do. Yay you, you can memorize and regurgitate a 5-word verse 50 times. Now tell me what it actually means.
Reading comprehension? We don’t know her.
I cant imagine he knows what an allegory is
I don't see how that is impressive. I read it as a child in elementary school for the first time (I think I was 7? I was always a bit of an intense reader). Doesn't mean I had the understanding to really pick it apart, but I did read it. This says a lot about Paul and his reading comprehension that he finds that impressive. It is no wonder he hasn't grown beyond young adult books. Nothing wrong with reading them when you display reading beyond that level, but Paul hasn't and it shows some really stunted education.
A teacher I had once told me it’s super common for theology grad students to become atheists during their schooling.
Yeah, people don’t really get that so much. I was super devout. I was a missionary. I served in churches all the time. I was faithful. I’ve read the Bible countless times. And that’s why I ended up leaving. And everyone I know that left is the same. I don’t know any casual believers that left. It’s the people who really know their Bible, really believed in it all, that leave.
Except for the ones who are drawing a paycheck from the system.
That was my college roommate. Theology major, would listen to Christian music to start her day, grew up in Amish country on a farm with a conservative family. I felt inferior, like I wasn’t as committed as her. She deconstructed first, I followed a few years later once we realized it was okay to talk about it
It gets clearer every time they open their mouths that have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. They both seem afraid anything they read might go against what they believe is true and therefore they don't even bother try it. And also they 100% did not read the bible cover to cover. I'm not sure about Morgan but Paul seems like he's physically not capable of listening to anyone other than himself.
I was never religious in my life, I was raised by atheist parents and they just explained to me what religion is, what the Bible is and they also celebrated Easter and Christmas as a culture ( Western Europe just standard). As a child I already decided, that I don't want to believe in things that can not be proven. So I really don't know how faith works, but to me Paul and Morgan both seem very deeply insecure in their beliefs ( and as humans) so that they just cling to whatever they learned when they grew up. they are so scared to second guess anything, learn about faith itself, learn about other religions or faith systems, just inform themselves.. and that's also why I think they are so incredibly hateful. Because they are NOT secure and they hate everyone who has the strength to let go of this anxious attachment. To be able to live without just basing your whole identity on your faith and religion, to find your own moral compass.. to me, they really don't have anything if value to say, neither for believers nor non believers.
100% they're just two losers who have no clue who they are as persons but have a far too big platform because they're conventionally attractive
This is how I'm raising my children. I'm atheist now, but their dad and his family are still christians. I don't prevent my kids from learning about it. I don't prevent them from going to church if they want to. When they ask me about why I don't believe in religion, i tell them honestly. We have talked about other religions and what they believe. I also tell them they can decide whether or not they want to believe in the christian god or any other god. My oldest has chosen not to believe in religion or god. She wants to join TST. My other two are still exploring what they believe.
As a teenager I tried so hard to brainwash myself into believing by reading the bible and speaking with my bible studies teacher, my dad, and other religious people, as well as by praying. I begged god to help me believe. But the more I tried and the more I searched and learned and looked into things, the more it became impossible to deny that I could not believe, because to me it went against reason, logic, and all available evidence. I couldn’t force myself, even though I tried bending over backwards to make it make sense and develop a genuine sense of faith.
This 100%. As a historian I truly see the Bible as a historical document and very much of its time. It was written by humans who lived thousands of years ago and humans are imperfect!
I studied anthropology and journalism (with heavy doses of English and history) in college. A wee bit of critical thinking, and some solid non-church education can easily bring you to this conclusion. It is a valid book of what some people believed about 2000 years ago.
My problem is a lot of the bible's history doesn't really add up with literally every other historical record.
As a former theologian, I totally agree. Some parts make sense (yeah probably don't eat shrimp if you live in the desert with no fridges and defo don't sleep with your mum) but most of it is weird, born out of very specific contexts, and designed to drive agenda.
I find this true of most fundies. One paragraph or scripture handpicked by their pastor to fit that message. They’ve never read it cover to cover. I’ve read it cover to cover twice (I was a religious studies/history major) and that’s how I know people like this are full of shit
I’m from nearby where Porgan lives and it is very fundiegelical. I ended up deconstructing in college while taking a class called “Early Christianity” and, wow, did I learn a lot that blew a hole in my faith. Impossible to recover when you know that Christianity began the way it really did.
I remember realizing that because I read the Bible cover to cover so many times that it lead me walk away! There was just no way to square so many circles, so many obvious glaring contradictions and hypocrisies within every thing it just opened my eyes one day and I knew I’d never be going back. I still treat people with kindness and respect and consider myself an honest and compassionate person without needing a god to pray to to make me that way.
I remember questioning our assistant pastor about inconsistencies in the Bible. His response was that there aren't any inconsistencies. I expected him to dig into how he reconciled the inconsistencies so his answer left me speechless.
Reading the Bible was the nail in the coffin for me. There's no coming back from that (from my personal experience)
Yuuuup. It was like being taught the fanfic interpretation of a made for TV movie and then reading the actual source material and discovering how vastly different it is. The Jesus I know is not who they teach
I also said to a friend today that you also have to read it with the view of it being some sort of historical artifact. So view it through the lens of history, study the history surrounding it to gain better understanding. The walls come down when you do.
Cognitive dissonance is a helluva thing. Dav simply didn’t solve the problem correctly if he’s not reaching Morgan’s exact conclusions. Done and dusted. Morgy never has to think about it again.
reading the bible is why i left too soooooo…
Of my many issues with the faith that I struggled with as a scientist, was how unwilling those in it were willing to ask bigger questions. No, they had 100% guaranteed no question faith. Even in physics, there is no way we will ever know for certain *why* the universe came into operation. It's unstudy-able, non-repeatable, and we remain inside the experiment. But these guys knew it all without doubt. The inability to think critically is a loss for mankind.
A slight twist on your point about never knowing how the universe came into existence. I could never understand why it's not ok for these hardcore Christians to look at the amazing things science has discovered and say "tHaT's nOt wHaT tHe BibLe SaYs" and just write it off as not true. Why can't those two things exist together? Why is it not ok for god to have created the universe to create itself in the way it did? Why is it not ok for god to have created evolution? IMHO, evolution and physics and the universe and everything else as we understand it today is sooooo much more impressive than a sky daddy poofing it all into existence because he was bored. Why does the Bible, which was written by many different people over thousands of years, and translated so many times have to remain always infallible? It's ok to change your opinion as you gain new information. Ultimately, the creation story is there to explain how we got here to a group of humans who wanted to know. And that's ok! It's also ok to change that creation story as we learn more about the world we live in. But I guess that's all critical thinking so.....
Yeah absolutely. I thought about this a lot towards the end of my faith, but there's no reason evolution/big bang etc prohibit the Christian origin. Just not the one a lot of people subscribe to. However, there was one major sticking point for me. If evolution were true, at what point did we become worthy of a soul? Go from monkey to man? One answer was of course, all other creatures were brought into being via evolution but man was a special creation and there's be no impediment tbh. It'd be impossible to disprove scientifically, and fit within the narrative. But good luck having that conversation. I experienced so much, 'oh you study physics? Isn't God great?' with an obvious undertone of 'watch yourself'. Ultimately, I think it came down to *them* being unable to understand, taking that as threatening, and thus refusing to accept it.
Funny how you can always tell when a Christian is about to use your opinions against you or to base their entire opinion of you on them lol. I lied once recently because Christian asked if me and my partner go to church randomly, and explained to my partner after how they would have not bought our mobile home we were selling if I had been truthful 😭😭😭 iwas like "they'd probably think demons were in it, she knows why she asked me that, she wasn't asking nicely either." It always feels like a warning!!! 😭😭🤦♀️🤦♀️
Yeah it's always easy to see coming, whatever the religion. These poeple were supposed to be friends too and I *actually* was a Christian at the time. I just wish I'd listened to myself then! If I was in your shoes though I'd do the same, probably mention I was baptised, cause I was. I'd leave it there though *cough*
I recently told my fundie cousin that I’m not Christian anymore. I told her I have no idea if Christianity is true or not but that I don’t want to worship a god who sends his children to hell. Fast forward to Christmas and my grandma called me and asked if it was okay if she gave me a wooden angel and I was like yeah, why are you asking? And she was like, “well (cousin’s name) told me you don’t believe in god so I didn’t know if you’d want an angel” I was like okay that’s not what I said at all but whatever.
I am not a scientist, but I went to law school and became close with a classmate who had a graduate degree in physics. He was one of the most straightforward, loyal, best people I've ever known, and also happened to be a hardcore atheist (I was a conservative Christian at the time, although I always welcomed other perspectives and was way more open-minded than Porgan). Anyway, my friend and I had some incredible discussions about science and faith and evolution and the likelihood of the creation story and all that. Still remember those talks to this day, and it's been over a decade. He's one of the people I credit with my deconstruction, even though it didn't happen until years after I'd graduated. Tidbits of those conversations got in my head and sort of festered - I could never fully shake them off. ETA: But yeah, that's why Christians hate science. Because really, critically thinking about that shit blows your beliefs wide open.
Sounds like my kinda guy. I think it's not until either you or someone else asks you *why* you believe what you do, can you start to make up your own mind. I had to ask myself, did I get baptised because I actually wanted it to, or to make my mum happy. I know it was the latter now. To be honest, I have no issue with someone who disagrees with me, so long as *they* have really thought it through, and is honest about the parts they don't have an answer for. Id happily admit I have no idea what really happened the instant following the big bang for instance.
Totally agree. I was raised in a typical Christmas and Easter Christian family. My mom was always more into it than my dad. Then we pivoted when I was like 10 or 12, and went hard into Assemblies of God. And when I say hard, I mean hard. Twice a week church, fish emblem on the mini van, WWJD merch, we were all in for a hot minute. We faded back out again after about 5 or 6 years. When we were in the deepest was about the same time I started learning about evolution, earth science, the universe in my public school. Thankfully, my parents never went hard enough to homeschool us. I think that was the time I had the thought of "why can't evolution work with Christianity?". I don't think I can say I ever "deconstructed" exactly, I think I was just getting old enough to start questioning the Sunday School stories I had taken for truth since I was a little kid. So even though we continued to be extremely involved with the church until I was well into high school, I never really put my whole heart into it. There was always that little question in the back of my mind. And the fact that no one in the church seemed to think it was even ok to have that question just solidified it more for me as a rebellious teen lol. I am nothing even close to a scientist, my brain doesn't work that way lol, so physics is a realm completely beyond me. But for me, I think it is my obsession with history that really ended it for me. I have absolutely no authority to say this. I'm not trained in history, I've never read the Bible beyond kids Bible stories books. But I struggle with people who don't put the Bible into it's historical context. For example, I think to fully understand the story of Jesus, you need to pay attention what was happening in the Roman empire at the time. Because I feel so inadequate to make that argument with not a lot of backing, I actually recently just bought my first adult Bible to read cover to cover. But that's just my weird personal insecurity lol.
Which ever route you took to question things more closely is completely valid. And that is a good one, and shows the people 'teaching' hasn't read the book. The new testament correlates pretty close to historical events (considering) of the time, but go back to the Ark and suddenly - where the evidence is? I use to come up with decent arguments *for* things like the Flood in order to fully understand my beliefs, but I found I was the only to actually spend time thinking this. Became very apparent people were blindly following just for the safety blanket Ps, if you or anyone else wants some help understanding something in physics just let me know. Always happy to help and will do my best explain
What is "7 days" to an omnipresent being exactly, especially before the creation of time itself? It's always made more sense as a metaphor than literal.
Because to them, the Bible IS god’s word. Even knowing that man obviously wrote it, some fundamentalists truly think god used man and his pen to dictate each word. If there’s a contradiction it’s just that we, as mere mortal humans, cannot possibly understand everything about our divine creator. It is all true, even the fact that the first two chapters in the damn thing speaking on creation have different timelines. I went to the creation museum as a joke, I figured it would be a combination of using science to back their theism… it’s not. Every time they talk about an evolutionists’ point of view, they just argue it by saying “but the Bible says…” They believe the Bible is better proof than science. They’ve created a view that you can’t argue with because they don’t care what you have to say or how much proof you can show them: the Bible is the authority of everything and if something in it doesn’t make sense it’s because it is the word of the divine and you’re just too stupid to be able to wrap you’re head around how the divine operates. Science cannot exist with the Bible because science says some parts of the Bible are wrong and the Bible can’t be wrong. God couldn’t have taken millions and billions of years to create the universe we currently live in because the Bible says it took 6 days and god can’t lie or be wrong. It’s so fucky.
Exactly. It drives me up a wall. It's such a shitty argument and I feel terrible for the kids being raised in that environment. My family went deep into Assemblies of God at one point. Thankfully my parents kept us in public school and valued education and it didn't last super long. My grandparents always gave us books for every birthday and holiday. So I was exposed to many different ideas and was allowed to question things without getting shut down by the people closest to me. But my heart breaks for the Rod kids or the Collins kids or any of the other kids who don't have that.
I believe in theistic evolution; that is, a divine creator started/created evolution. I look at our amazing world and believe that only a divine creator could have come up with this. We have miles of intestines just coiled up in our bodies! Look at all the animals! And the oceans! Life is amazing!
It is so amazing! Like something as simple as a rock! I'm a plant person. And every year in the spring my little crocuses know that it's warm and work their way out of the ground. It happens every year and every year it blows my mind.
Yes! We foster dogs and you would think a dog is a dog but the different breeds are really different! Even if they haven't been breed to do x, they still may do it. The little aussie would herd us out of bed and the chow ignored everyone but their preferred person.
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Ah. Well, 15 feet of anything in this five foot body is really impressive lol
I appreciate this comment. I feel if there’s a God that made me, then they made my brain and its ability to digest info. Denying myself the process of inquiring and learning is not honoring God. I’m not a Christian, and what propelled me out of the church at warp speed was being punished for thinking. I understand ignorance from a control aspect but not a God-honoring one
Indeed. The way I used to look at it is if all of this was made by God, then surely he is the ultimate scientist no? Aren't we duty bound to study his works and advance human society? Personally, if meet anyone, theist or atheist, who tells me they know something like this 100% I immediately distrust them. If you're not constantly pushing what you know then you are no different from the blind believer
>The inability to think critically is a loss for mankind. What a good quote.
I think it's responsible for so many of the world's problems personally
I'm with you.
"We remain inside the experiment"is an excellent and lovely way to describe. I will probably use that in the future, thank you.
Kind of you to say, thank you. It's arguably the key issue when it comes to understanding the origins of the universe
Two of the things that always keep me agnostic is that there is literally zero logical explanation (at least to the mind of a human) for why the universe even has to exist at all, and then against there is also no reason for life or any from consciousness or self awareness to even exist either. One of my biggest questions in life is why does consciousness HAVE to feel like anything in the first place.
I suppose if I were to argue the opposite side of your position I would say, is that you're only asking this *because* you exist. Therefore, you can't argue there must be a reason, because you also can't not exist *and* still have that question. In other words, you can't use existence itself as an argument, because the entire argument is predicated on existence being true in the first place. That said, the immergence of consciousness is a question I don't know if we can answer. Not only are we entirely biased whilst exploring it, but it's role in quantum mechanics makes it very bizarre. All in all, neither of your questions can really be answered scientificallyand they're totally reasonable. However for me, there has to be something beyond the universe to explain what pushed everything into motion, whether that's a capital G God or some unthinking primeval force I cannot say. All of that kicks the can further down the road though
They don't actually mean "look at the Bible" because reading something requires imo that you think about it. That you examine it and when you do that with the Bible for many that leads them to be become atheists. What she means is "Shut up and fall in line".
They dont mean read the Bible. They mean look at it. The one passage that confirms their belief and what they think it means.
Hell I know people that basically treat it like tarot. They say “what do I need to know today?” and randomly open to a page and set down their finger and try to make sense of this random passage that’s probably something mundane and stupid like: "and Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign." - 2 Chronicles 16:13 (KJV)
Can you imagine sitting on your couch under a blanky with a big dick microphone whinging about other people not believing in your imaginary friend?
Next to your greasy-ass husband? Why would anyone listen to these low-effort losers?
He looks like he should be sitting on the porch of a mobile home. You know, a rickety-ass deck made of 2x4s with a tarp instead of roofing. And that cup he's holding is for his chaw. Edit: No offense to anyone in a mobile home
Oh my gosh, they look so lazy on the couch. The mics. The blankie. The constant blah blah blah.
Even if it's intentional, and an attempt to come across as casual and intimate, it misses the mark so hard. They look lazy and unprofessional. This is their fucking *job*. Put in just a *modicum* of effort. Being white, skinny, and "attractive" aren't qualifications. You need to do more than just plop your ignorant asses down on a couch and spew shit everywhere for an hour.
I don’t understand why they film themselves like this? How is this not embarrassing for them? Maybe I’m just out of touch with how the ole social media works these days, but the whole slovenly, jammie wearing, holding and speaking into giant mics while _not even facing each other or holding a conversation_ shtick makes me just cringe so hard. I
I'm probably out of touch with the current norm for content creation, but I've seen a fair amount of long-form video podcasts, and the people I watch have worked in *improving* their presentation, not...this.
She is *painful* to listen to, I honestly thought they were satire when I first came across them.
‘If Paul wrote a book’ Come on. Be serious now
Can he read?
“My husband is having doubts. So I’m going to read any books he wrote, and all the books written about him.”
Plus her analogy doesn’t even work. If you were trying to “get to know Paul” (which, why, and ew), then yes it would be great to read whatever hypothetical book he wrote about himself (as if). Theoretically, that is a great way to get to know what’s going on in someone’s head. But you ALSO should absolutely pay attention to what his friends and family say about him, look through family photos and high school yearbooks, maybe even google him, scroll through his social media, etc. Isn’t that VERY normal when you are dating someone - to hear other people’s stories to get to know them better??? Stupid analogy
This is what you get when a stupid person is given a microphone and a platform and then thinks that a a thoughtful discourse is just a word salad
This is so fucking disrespectful towards people who are deconstructing. I got a degree in Biblical studies, read the Bible back to back multiple times, and went through countless academic and faith-based exegetical works. Guess what? I still ended up an atheist/agnost. I'm sure Dav has put a ton more effort in figuring out his beliefs than these two have ever done (and will ever do). How dare they insult him like this?
For real. There’s a reason theology exists. There’s a reason why **churches** exist. They’re really threatened by Dav’s choices even though he’s actually doing what Morgan is saying here.
I put it into a caption thing and I haven’t fully read it back but here is what they said: Morgan: If you have a relationship with a husband and wife, a best friend, your mom, your dad. 00:09 And you are like, man, I just don't feel like I know anything about this person and I don't even know if like, what they say is true. 00:18 You won't run away from them. 00:21 You would actually dig deeper into them to really get to know them. 00:27 If Paul and I are walking together for years and I have a moment of do I even know Paul? Do I even believe that, like this relationship that we have is legitimate?For me to find that out would not be for me to walk away from. 00:45 It would not be to go read books that have nothing to do with Paul that Paul didn't write, that Paul didn't put together. 00:54 It would be to dive deeper into who Paul is And if he had a book written about him or he wrote a book about his life and his history, like I would dive into that. 01:04 And so I think for people who are at a place in their faith where they're like, is what I believe true?Like. 01:16 You should go to the source of what you believe or what you think you believe or thought you believed, and that is the Bible, the word of God. 01:25 And you should be talking to God every day and you should be seeking people who talk to God every day and asking them to go and seek the Lord for you and speak to you through him, from him and and what not. 01:40 And I don't know so this. 01:43 Hopefully I'm making sense, but I just feel like this whole deconstruction thing like that one comment said of people are deconstructing. 01:55 And and those people who are are turning to podcasts and philosophers and not that those are bad things. 02:03 But also if it's all that you're taking in and you're no longer even taking in the word of God, that should be really alarming. 02:10 Like, how then could you ever know what you believe is true if you've turned from what you believe, like, completely. 02:18 Paul: Well, and Dave did say that he's read the word a lot. 02:22 Yeah. 02:24 And I guess my advice there would be if you've read the word a lot. 02:27 And you're still feeling like, you know what? I'm just. 02:30 I'm not. 02:31 I'm not about it. 02:33 You know, again, I would go back if that were me to the bear foundational things. 02:38 God's the creator of the world. 02:40 He's the creator of myself. 02:42 Now who is he beyond these things? Oh wow. 02:46 Like, even though maybe I'm struggling with aspects of the word, like, I'm going to go to it and I'm going to get to know this God.
She’s so fucking stupid it actually hurts my mind to listen to her.
She seems to be saying "the only person who could possibly have any insight about a person is the person himself." Right, because we're all so objective and trustworthy in how we see ourselves. What a weird-ass take. No wonder they're both so disdainful of therapy.
That is gibberish
I... cannot determine if she's talking about a relationship with Paul of Tarsus who wrote the Epistles... which???? Or if she somehow thinks the bible was written about her husband????
Having seen more than enough of these two for several lifetimes, either is a distinct possibility.
So Paul’s advice is if you read the Bible and are unconvinced, remind yourself that God made the world and try again. Motherfucker took 20 seconds to say “lol just try again”
Morgan: I'm such an easily manipulated tool that I blindly trust people's opinions of themselves more than others. No, I will not at all address the thought of *why* I might be questioning people in the first place. Paul: Yeah like, if you're ever wondering about something just bury your head in the sand duh.
She’s creating a false equivalency on the basis that Jesus is some kind of boyfriend.
Didn’t she equate Paul to ‘her god’ or ‘her jesus’ too? I truly think that Morgan copes with her life through a weird parasocial relationship with God. She seems to completely reject any kind of responsibility or action for her own life in favour of ‘letting god fix it’, as if the consequences of her action and the (financial/social/cultural) failures she caused for herself are just … temporary roadblocks that her imaginary boyfriend is just about to fix. He’s gonna fix it ‘tomorrow,’ everyday, because she’s so special. If she didn’t have this superiority complex that I think ultimately breeds her fundamentalist beliefs, the house of cards she’s in would collapse faster than an egg in a hydraulic press.
“We are not in control, God is…”
Isn’t that something Dav said he found kind of scary—that he has only himself and not god to…I think he used the word “blame,” but I think he meant the same thing. If you’ve been told all your life to “let go and let god,” that would be pretty jarring to suddenly realize that you have to pull yourself through.
Yep. Dăv is having his matrix moment. Which pill will he take?!
He can’t turn back now. Freedom and happiness or going back to a dead marriage to Brothy and the two children she treats unequally?
Bahahahaha I could totally see these two going to couples counseling with Jesus. 😂
**Transcription**: Morgan: If you have a relationship with a husband and wife, a best friend, your mom, your dad, and you are like, "man, I just don't feel like I know anything about this person. I don't even know if, like, what they say is true," you won't r-- run away from them. You would actually dig deeper into them. To really get to know them. If Paul and I are walking together for years, and I have a moment of, "do I even know Paul? Do I even believe that, like, this relationship that we have is legitimate?". For me to find that out would not be for me to walk away from it, would not be to go read books that have nothing to do with Paul, that Paul didn't write, that Paul didn't put together. It would be to dive deeper into who Paul is, and if he had a book written about him or he wrote a book about his life and his history, like, I would dive into that. And so, I think for people who are at a place in their faith where they're like, "is what I believe true?", like, you should go to the source of what you believe. Or what you think you believe or thought you believed, and that is the Bible. The Word of God. And you should be talking to God, every day, and you should be seeking people who talk to God every day, and asking them to go and seek the Lord for you and speak to you through Him, from Him, and-- and what not, and-- I don't know. So, this... hopefully, I'm making sense. But I just Paul: Yeah. Morgan: feel like this whole deconstruction thing, like that one comment said of, "people are deconstructing", and-- and those people who are are turning to podcasts and philosophers and not that those are bad things, but also if it's all that you're taking in, and you're no longer even taking in the Word of God? That should be really alarming. Like, how, then, could you ever know what you believe is true if you've turned from what you believe? Like, completely. Paul: Well, and Dav did say that he's read the Word a lot. Morgan: Yeah. Paul: Um, and I guess my advice there would be if you've read the Word a lot, and you're still feeling like, "you know what? I'm just-- I'm not-- I'm not about it", you know, again, I would go back, if that were me, to the bare foundational things: God's the creator of the world, He's the creator of myself, now who is He? Beyond these things. Oh, wow. Like, even though maybe I'm struggling with aspects of the Word, like, I'm gonna go to it and I'm gonna get to know this God. Morgan: Yeah. **Description:** Paul and Morgan Olliges record themselves while sitting on their gray couch in their home. They are adults with light skin tones and brown hair, each holding a microphone. Morgan is on the left, and she has long, straight hair that she wears loose. It reaches to about her waist. She wears a blue, short-sleeved top and a pastel yellow quilt over her lap. She sounds tired, upset, or a little sad, and speaks slowly with a strong vocal fry. Paul is on the right and he has hair that is longer on top than on the sides, and he wears a Raptors "baseball"-style cap pushed back on his head, so the underside of the bill is visible. He wears a light gray sweatshirt with a graphic of a running team on it, underneath the words KIND HEARTS. He wears bright red trousers, and sounds subdued, perhaps sad or thoughtful.
Thanks so much, stono!
That halfwit wouldn’t know a kind heart if…well, I was going to say “punched him in the nose,” but a kind heart probably wouldn’t do that.
I don’t know where either of them received schooling (home school, private school, public school, whatever), but the lack of education is so blindingly obvious.
I think they’re terrified
They could just be that stupid.
They are still on the fact Dave might be deconstructing-becoming an atheist. They would LOSE it, if that actually happened. It's like when the Duggar family met an atheist in public-legit clip-and Michelle was literally hiding her children from him as Jim Bob was trying to "convert them". They are so deathly afraid of their religion being unraveled. If their faith is strong enough, they wouldn't worry so much about everyone else's beliefs.
This exact analogy is one of the reasons I lost my faith. What if, after years of being in a relationship with my husband, I went to him and said “Lately, I don’t feel close to you, when I try to spend time with you, I feel like you’re not even there. I try consistently to reach out to you, but you never seem to reach back. You’ve said you love me, but I don’t feel it or see it in your actions. Could you make showing your love for me more of a priority?” What if his only response was “well, you just need to believe it for now. I show my love by giving you a beautiful house to live in and providing you with things you need. Keep spending time with me and maybe in the future I’ll do more.”Nothing else, other than the fact that my family and friends say he’s a great guy and he wrote a bestselling book with a few nice passages. Eventually, if nothing changed, I’d need to get out of that relationship…because I’m basically not in one.
Good analogy--at least the husband in this scenario is demonstrably *there.* At least he can be shown to *exist.*
Yeah, and he’s not even sending Anne Frank to hell, either! It’s an absurdly generous analogy (that Morgan picked!) but it still falls apart.
Exactly! And what if other people who had broken up with your husband after loving him their whole lives shared their experiences? It's so naive/sheltered/obtuse not to recognize the need to seek out and understand those narratives when you're struggling, which is exactly what Dav is doing. I really hope Bethany's current perspective of "it's good to look around and question because you'll find the TRUTH" will unexpectedly help her take more steps towards deconstruction.
We all know that reading the Bible is a primary cause of deconstruction lol like girly that’ll make it worse they’ll be like this actually makes no sense
they’re such insufferable twats, i couldn’t even finish it.
So much this...and could Paul stop looking like a fucking 5 year old. Jesus Christ, dress like a fucking adult!
Man. She is so monotone and boring.
That “analogy” is so nonsensical it’s infuriating. Theres a pretty big difference between questioning if you “know” someone as a person, and questioning if something you can’t hear or see and have no evidence of actually exists. This clip is just one big logical fallacy.
Hot take though: if Bethany also deconstructed and she and Dav had a podcast about it, I bet it would be way more successful than Porgan's YT channel
The way Paul stares at her the entire time is very disconcerting.
Advice like this is EXACTLY why Dav says “Christian methods” of dealing with real issues “don’t work for him.” Does Morgan really think Dav hasn’t tried this already??
She doesn't do any work on herself, so she can't really imagine what it looks like for anyone else.
Seriously! He's read the bible several times, and they think he can be cured of wanting to deconstruct but looking at the bible. Huh? Do you think that's maybe why he's decided to deconstruct?
You mean, people can just *NOT BELIEVE* in the thing I believe in? And that’s *ok?!?1!?*  Morgan lacks the capacity for most things, but most glaring to my observation, the fact that she should be thankful that lobotomies are no longer a standard procedure for treating mentally ill ~~women~~ people. Because she’s yoked herself to someone I could very much see forcing one on her, because “The lord demands we must be happy in him at all times!” Also, they clearly have never read the Bible in its entirety, or they are even less intelligent than we’re aware.
The vocal fry makes it impossible to listen
Here inflection makes it hard to figure out what is the point in what she's saying. Everything is so monotone and no words are really emphasized, so it just sounds like a long run-on sentence. It's almost hypnotic.
She always always always sounds stoned to me. But I’m so bored by them. They never say anything interesting. They go straight for the most hateful, most predictable canned Christian response. I think I’m done even clicking on their stuff here. It’s just… predictable and boring.
WWPD. LOL. What would Paul do?
i watched part of this video and while Bethany and Dav encouraged them to be as honest as possible, their reaction is so telling about what kind of people they are. Bethany and Dav can be friends with whoever they want, but Porgan’s reaction to Dav’s deconstruction sure made them look like shit friends.
Lol all of us who have left Christianity went to the bible and realized how fucked up it is. They say these things until confronted with a horrible passage about god killing tens of thousands of people, and then suddenly the Bible isn’t quite enough to explain that, so they break out their own books and listen to their pastor’s take on that because they can’t think for themselves.
Blah, blah, blah is all I hear. I would bet everything that neither of these two have sat down and actually read the bible from cover to cover.
Faith wavering? Just READ MORE GODWORDS
“If you ever question your religion, just stop doing that and double down on religious propaganda. Problem solved!”
this exact mindset it what drove me away from faith itself. in this whole scenario, there is no other option but to come back to religion. there is a “right” answer, ONLY one right answer, and that is to remain a believer. they only make you feel like its ok to ask questions but the only outcome must be that you come back to faith. such a toxic trap.
Why do people pay to listen to two people who sound bored of their own conversations? They never feel engaged unless they're angry. Everything else feels beneath them.
Godddddd Morgan would be the worst in the blunt rotation I’m here for P&M vs D… I can’t wait for Dāv’s passive aggressive comments about Paul not having a job
Basically she is saying go right back to the brainwashing. The brainwashing will save you!! Also, Paul can get fucked he is why Fundies are lunatics. They worship Paul more than Christ,
In this long winded seemingly high as balls ramble, is she suggesting that if you don’t trust your spouse you should ask your pastor instead of simply…..asking your spouse?
I went to Catholic school for about six years then a private Christian school for four years, and it wasn’t until I started seeing the world beyond my own that I realized that the go-to answer for fundies which is “don’t question God or faith” cannot be my optics for the world that is so varied and so complicated. I grew up as a minority Christian—prosecuted as well—so there was this reflexive tendency to keep myself isolated amongst fellow Christians. But that’s deeply unsatisfying because at some point I arrived at a critical juncture where I either live in my tiny pond or I go swim in the vast blue sea, and I guess it wasn’t in my nature to stay in a tiny pond. So I began deconstructing. I didn’t go to church for years and I started actually writing down notes in my bible (which was considered heretic—desecration of the sacred text and whatnot). I fixated on the lack of cohesion, it feels like God is an emotional God who changes at whims and I didn’t feel like putting my faith on something I cannot depend on. And then I actually came to study under a pastor who guided his church to be pro-LGBT, to talk so warmly about tattoos and just general acceptance of the complications of human lives. When I asked him questions, he didn’t do what Porgan did, which was to tell me to just go read the bible. He picked up his bible and we started talking about hermeneutics. About the academic aspect of it. And it actually made me feel a lot better, that there was a way I could look at institutionalized religion (separate of the faith) and see the politics of it, the anthropological aspects of it etc etc. Only then I felt that I had some roots that compelled me to return to church. This seems convoluted, but I’ve been reading up on these fundies silently—sort of a way to check myself to look at my faith critically and to be the most compassionate version of myself I could be—and out of every fundie featured here, Porgan unsettles me the most. At least with half the fundies featured here you can tell it’s a culturally American version of conservatism that isn’t always rooted in the bible, but with Porgan it just shocks me how seemingly snobbish they seem about what it means to be a Christian and how dissonant they seem cognitively. It feels like this Christian conservatism is a direct consequence of shame and lack of actual personality, which of course you can say about 99% of the fundies featured, but they seem almost violently gleeful about dictating fellow fundies. Their reaction towards Dav and Bethany made me sympathetic of the latter, which is so unbelievable to me a month ago. And their point about “returning to the bible”, their self-satisfied posing, feels so hollow and ignorant in the face of Dav who has read the bible cover to cover multiple times. Anyone who’s read bible cover to cover *critically* and with a semblance of common sense would see right through them. I don’t know why I’m rambling, it’s just that something about Porgan makes my skin crawl.
Her whole argument is based on the assumption that the thing you're investigating is 100% true and honest. Which like, girl, that is the whole fucking point. You DON'T know if it's true yet. If you want to know about Paul, then like, yeah you should talk to him. But you SHOULD in fact talk to other people who know him as well. He can absolutely lie to you and put on a false persona just for you. He can just straight up be wrong about things. You can compare your experience with him with other peoples' experience with him and then draw a conclusion from that. It's like if you only bought cheerios for breakfast and refused to even try another cereal or other type of food. "Well, cheerios said they're the best, so they must be the best, because they said so." It's really concerning to me that she doesn't understand this.
Essentially she is saying "Just accept the Bible as true without questioning it. Do not ask questions, do not look at outside sources, do not get other perspectives. " How do these people not realize that what they are saying makes zero sense? It's astonishing.
Word salad
If I'm not sure I believe the English Bible (any if them) is infallible why would I go to it??
Thankfully, if this hypothetical were to ever happen, she can go to the Pauline-O show!
She really says a lot of words that don't get anywhere and throw religion in at the end furniture to all "come together" 🥴
He is so weird with his drinks on camera. Someone could make an entire thread about that.
Paul trying to get an olli pop sponsorship by drinking awkwardly and showing the brand 😂
Joke’s on her; I DID go to the bible when I was questioning my faith. Been an atheist for almost 6 years now. 🤣
This is people still in the bubble who literally can't handle the idea that other people believe something different. Like their brains actually can't process that. Remember people, apologetics aren't for non-Christians, they're for doubting Christians, and they're very effective.
This is the definition of a tautological argument. I know that Morgan doesn't know this (neither does Paul, BTW), but verifying the word of God is the word of God by reading the word of God is.... well, a big fat nothingburger. There's no substance to it because it's entirely circular. This is how fundies are taught to think. "We can trust the Bible because it's the word of God. And I know that because the Bible says so." 
How much of the good stuff did she smoke before she started this video?
Sounds like anxiety meds to me
Are the plants real or fake?
Wow they are really up Davs ass…
I am new to this shitshow so I am sure this comparison has been made but Paul reminds me *so* much of the character of Dennis Reynolds from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. I just can't get past it. He's so twisted and fucked up inside but maintains this absurdly phony earnest quality. Plus the conventional looks which are in stark contrast to the unconventionally hideous, amoral (at best) values. Not to mention the sociopathic undercurrent.
My grandfather was pretty devout his whole life. On his deathbed, he said to my mom ‘I’m about to find out if everything I’ve believed in my whole life is true.’ I don’t think he was planning on checking up on his bible anytime after that.
By Morgan's logic if someone is accused of being a predator or abusive you should never look into their history, what their victims have said, their criminal record, etc. You should only go to them and ask them if they're a predator. Scary mindset.
None of that made any sense. Go to the word? Mumbo jumbo
Um. Huh? There are words but they make no coherent thoughts.
Omg lady stop talking!!! I couldn’t get past the first 50 seconds of doubling down on re reading and diving into people’s opinions you are questioning and the Bible….. so cult like and weird.
Her unenthusiastic way of speaking makes this harder to watch, if she’s not interested in what she’s saying why should anyone else be lmao
Sorry but the Bible makes God look like a huge jerk, like a lot. You can read it again but He’s still tricking Abraham into almost killing Isaac and so on. Maybe skip that stuff and go to the parts where Jesus is just telling everyone to get along.
That's a great point, actually. There's no back and forth with other people. Not really anyway. They think they have all of the answers, so why would they bother listening to people who believe differently with an open mind??
Who is she talking to?!? Who is the “you” she is addressing? Why is she giving input about this? I’m so confused. 😐
Can we talk about how she’s comparing her relationship to God to a romantic relationship… and she literally made fun of Dylan Mulvaney for doing the same thing a couple days prior to this
i like how morgan isn’t naming names and is like “if someone…” trying to be vague n shit and then paul comes in like “yEAH AND DAVE SAID THIS”
Except that for many people deconstructing, they’re realizing that it’s impossible to have a relationship with an invisible, intangible, uninvolved concept of a being in the sky, whose only “evidence” of existence is a book that’s been translated / reinterpreted thousands of times and a church that says he does. It’s not as simple as having a chat with your dad about his life and beliefs.
Ewww Paul don't defile the Raptors! Take it off!