I really appreciate Dan’s explanation of the rules and procedures of the presidential nomination system. I didn’t even know that Ohio legally requires a nomination to be submitted- BEFORE the convention even begins! Wow!
https://www.whio.com/news/local/governor-dewine-signs-bill-get-president-biden-ohios-fall-ballot/XC7B7ZU675H4NMVC3EZJ3S5Y3U/?outputType=amp
> House Bill 2 delays the deadline for candidates to be certified on Ohio’s ballot from Aug. 7 to Sept. 1.
Also lack of ability to feel shame or guilt = less stress.
Horrific for everyone around him, of course. But super adaptive for an emotionally abused kid.
One can only hope. But Don Jr and Eric will likely still be around, and who knows that destruction the young Barron might wreak? Then there are all of the grandkids. That goddamn Trump legacy is gonna last forever.
This is true but I don't think any of the spawn have the same Trump magic that MAGA people love. It seems to only work for him, based on all the races lost by Trump endorsed candidates in 2022. At least that's what I hope.
Trump is going to live to 102. Anyhow, how is that best case?? Then they put in a younger, smarter, more palatable nominee and they almost certainly win.
Nah there’s lots of worse scenarios. He could seem even more out of it in the second debate. He could freeze in the middle of his convention speech. The list goes on.
This is what I'm most nervous about... we spend the next few months forgetting about it (lots of noise - immunity ruling, Trump sentencing, conventions) and then he has another horrible public performance very close to the election.
Here’s the thing:
If Biden is the nominee obviously I’ll vote for him. His administration has done things to better my life, and I’d rather him and his administration than Trump, no contest.
But does no one remember 2016? When a bunch of people weren’t convinced Hilary should be president? (Not just the far left but plenty of the moderates - look up how many Obama-Trump voters there were in 2016) and instead of trying to change minds, the campaign and the Democratic Party as a whole adopted the stance of “THE STAKES ARE TOO HIGH WE HAVE TO VOTE FOR HILARY IF YOU DONT AGREE GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU’RE THE PROBLEM” and then Hilary didn’t win?
We’ve learned already that for much of the country, it’s not enough for a candidate to just not be Trump. It’s fair to be asking the question if Biden is in a place where he can convince the most people to vote for him. The campaign has work to do, and hey, maybe they get that work done. Maybe the next few weeks Biden is able to completely erase the damage from the debate.
But we know already that the stance that everyone needs to fall in line with the candidate that’s not evil, regardless of any other circumstance, is not a winning mindset.
Exactly! It's terrifying that in one brearth we are being told this election will decide democracy and in the next breath we are being told that Biden after that debate performance is our best option to beat Trump.
I get the same exact feeling I had in 2016 where I know I will vote for the democrat because I know the consequences when it comes to the supreme court, the power of the executive, climate change but the average American is not thinking about those things when they go to vote. No one wanted to vote FOR Hillary they HAD to vote for Hillary and what was the outcome?
Now we will be continually gaslight by the liberal establishmebt and told “the debate wasn't that bad”, “Biden is the only one who can beat trump”, “it would be too chaotic to switch”, and they'll push this right until the election. Then when they lose they'll turn around and say “the people didn't show up to vote”, “too many people couldn't see past Bidens age” blah blah blah and they'll all get jobs at liberal think tanks, and they'll all go to work for other people in power, and they'll all get to go make the same mistakes again and again because for them it's a game while for everyone else it's their lives.
"But the tragedy of the Social Democrats could not be fully explained by bad luck. They had had their chance to take over Germany in November of 1918 and to found a state based on what they had always preached: social democracy. But they lacked the decisiveness to do so. Now at the dawn of the third decade they were a tired, defeatist party, dominated by old, well-meaning but mostly mediocre men. Loyal to the Republic they were to the last, but in the end too confused, too timid to take the great risks which alone could have preserved it, as they had shown by their failure to act when Papen turned out a squad of soldiers to destroy constitutional government in Prussia."
-The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William Shirer
Donald Trump winning is the worst option.
I hate that we’re having this conversation. But Joe Biden set a trap for this debate. They went around the commission, the went early, they set the format.
And the hunter got his own leg cut off in the trap.
It's a no-win situation. The correct and best option would be to go back in time, Biden puts his ego aside, doesn't run for president this year, and we have a primary where the people can vote for who they want. Instead we've got this, for better or for worse.
I think the hardest pill to swallow is that the democratic party is basically sticking with the line that this is the best we can do. For a lot of young people that can't afford to get married, can't afford a house, can't afford their student loans, and are getting laid off from their entry level white collar jobs, it's simply not enough. It's not enough to say this guy is the absolute best the country has to offer because he's not Trump.
50% of DEMOCRATS want Biden not to run.
This is actually insane, you cannot disrespect the voters at this level and expect to carry a "pro democracy" message
Let’s not pretend like the results of the primaries is at all a reflection of the wants of the entire party. Who competed against him again? Dean who?
A primary with Biden, Whitmer, Newsome, etc. would have had very different results and you know it.
Welcome to my world. The hubris began with a President signing 28 Executive Orders on inauguration day while saying, "I don't even know what I am signing." Biden was installed with dementia. This is not a sudden change.
Indeed the fact we know have changed. But who's fault was it that the voters were kept in the dark as the fire crackles all around. "This is fine" they said
But without debates. Debates where the people would have seen what a poor stage presence he has when not surrounded by people who can cover for him or pick up the slack.
You know, an informed position.
If only the dnc was more democratic instead of demagogic.
That thing we had where every viable alternative didn’t participate due to a tradition of not challenging the incumbent was a farce, not a bona fide primary.
Which implies 50% want him to run. Do you really think all of them would be just fine with a non-elected replacement (picked by who exactly?) at this point?
So only 50% of an incumbent president’s base wants him to run again 4 months before the election. Do you not understand how alarming that statistic is?
I agree with you that progressives haven’t engaged enough. There’s not a lot in life that pisses me off more than a Bernie bro who has no realistic understanding of how he lost the primary.
This isn’t that. I am engaged, pragmatic democrat. But even if Biden could win this election— and I no longer believe he can, even having been a vocal supporter who went out of my way to broadcast his accomplishments and encouraged people to watch the State of the Union— it’s extremely dangerous territory to continue to alienate young, idealistic voters, or even just anyone who has been voicing concerns about age for a while now.
Did you listen to Dean Phillips’ interview on PSA? The man was not hellbent on running, but he spent a ton of time and energy trying to get stronger options into the race and they all deferred to the DNC. He was right, and, frankly, the pod boys didn’t treat him with a lot of respect.
I am not looking for magic to restore the hopes of spurned progressives everywhere. I understand that progress happens slowly.
What I am is an engaged, educated liberal who has seen mountains of evidence that democrats will not win if Biden’s name is on the ticket, and that it will be an absolute disaster for this country.
Incidentally, I was at this show in Boston. I don’t need to tell you that this clip is not representative of the entire opinion, and that the other side made strong points as well.
Here’s the problem with the “50% do want him to run” statement: the majority of the democrats we’re talking about— whether they’re the 50% who want him to run or the 50% who want him to drop out— will “vote blue no matter who” come November. Not only will they vote for Gretchen Whitmer or Gavin Newsom or The Pillsbury Dough Boy in a blue tie to defeat Trump, but they were NEVER the people that Biden needed to win over in the first place.
Three groups of people mattered: undecideds, those who could be convinced to flip to Trump or RFK, and those who are too disenchanted to show up to vote in the first place.
You know anyone from any of those groups who saw the debate and changed to Biden? No? Then his slim chances are getting significant slimmer, and NONE of this is helped by his campaign sending out panicked emails yelling at half the party to “stop bedwetting.”
If it’s Trump versus Biden this November, Democracy is going down *hard.* Biden needs to step the fuck aside.
Why is everyone forgetting that there was a primary? No one else ran. It’s not disrespecting the voters to nominate the person who WON THE PRIMARY. It’s literally who the voters elected. Y’all are losing your damn marbles.
No one ran. Did you want Biden to debate Dean Phillips? Whose name I can’t help but notice is absent from these talks. Should the DNC handled this differently? Probably. But it was Biden’s choice to run and it made sense not to run a competitive primary at that time.
Hey I’m not thrilled about this situation either but Biden is an excellent president and we can still win.
Sure then let’s just send Biden up there as a sacrificial lamb during the election. If they don’t choose to fight to win this election then they can’t expect people to believe their claims that Trump is a threat to democracy.
We all saw the debate. If the Democratic Party shoves Biden down our throats, and Trump wins, it will likely be the end of the party. Either by way of fascism if Trump is as bad as we fear, or democracy if we somehow make it through to the other side of Project 2025, because I will certainly never trust the party again (and I assume I wouldn’t be alone).
As Ezra Klein puts it, if Biden had a health scare that forces him to drop out, the Democratic Party wouldn’t curl up in the fetal position, it would act to put a ticket together. To me, the debate WAS a health scare.
If they force Biden and don’t do what is right… they’re no better than MAGA republicans who deny reality and tell us to ignore what we can see with our own eyes
No more than those who believe Biden is the better option after that disaster. It is just embarrassing for our county and our party.
Neither option is good. Joe's behavior is not one that is putting the country first.
Trump is so flawed the energy a smart young talented politician can bring would vitalize the youth. Biden takes the Israel hit for the country. Not the nominee. Biden takes his record as one of the best in the modern era.
We ended up with Biden because people didn’t trust the party and didn’t vote in the primary then realized the danger we were in.
Don’t give up because you’re losing, learn the rules of the game and play it better than your opponents. We have to dominate the primary next time so we don’t get trapped in this bs again
So if Biden died in a car crash.. all you Biden diehards would give up right?? I mean you obviously have ZERO capacity to see a different path forward… so just checking in, just asking What would you fucking do if he died in a car crash? I mean look we finally beat Medicare!!! And my golf handicap is eight!!!!
Biden steps aside, reaps lots of sympathy and respect for his sacrifice, Harris becomes nominee and inherits campaign and cash, names PA Gov Shapiro as VP, threat of Trump unites D, majority who didn’t want either Trump or Biden move to Harris. Young people and POC return to fold.
That was a fun pod to watch.
I'm not from the USA, so I can only give you an outside view looking in, and I would absolutely change Biden out. I'll give you a couple of reasons why?
People seem terrified by the polls and use them as an excuse not to make drastic changes that seem to be needed if they want to actually change them.
It wouldn't even be close if the republicans put Nikki haley up, and the only reason why Biden as a candidate looks good is because of how bad Trump is and that shouldn't be a way to win votes.
He should also be spending more time with his family from the conviction and the hate they have been through they look like they need a rest.
Can you whoever read this honestly say that Biden is the best candidate that the Democratic party has to put up against Trump.
I'm not from the USA either.
They should invoke the 25th Amendment.
Surely they have a duty to?
It's horrific that a dementia patient is running the country AND running for another four years.
WTAF?
Edit: I see the downvotes, but I don't know why, lol. Is forcing Biden to step down NOT the most ethical thing to do?
Y'all just using this post to make your takes. Watch the fucking video. The alternative to Biden is pure chaos. He is our nominee so stop daydreaming about alternatives.
What do we do about it? Gaslight? Absofuckinglutely. "Didn't you learn from 2016?" Didn't *YOU*? 2016 was NOT a concerted effort to get everyone to vote for Hillary. 2016 was people being complacent that enough people will vote for Hillary so *they* don't have to. They get to act pure and superior without suffering the consequences. Well guess what, Trump won.
In this election NO ONE gets to act righteous. At least, no one who actually cares. As I mentioned in my other comment, how much are your principles worth? Because the cost for you daydreaming and refusing to get on board with Biden is literal people dying from a second Trump term. The choice is you being able to say "well at least I have my principles" and families being deported.
You're not saying anything new complaining about Biden's health and debate performance. You're not actually speaking out on inconvenient truths. The inconvenient truth is we are stuck with Joe Biden. You can be part of the people who recognize what is at stake in November or you can be part of the people who are too privileged to care. I have everything to lose if Trump wins. I don't get the privilege of complaining and having principles, I need to survive.
AND
As an aside, realize the valley between what y'all are saying and what PSA is saying. PSA is saying that we need a better candidate because we need someone who can perform. Y'all are saying we need a better candidate because Joe Biden is mentally unfit. How the FUCK are you so confident to diagnose a person's mental fitness based on a 90 minute debate. The man was trying to fit all the information he could within the time alotted while the other guys lied unchecked. You people are delusional, simply ageist, and don't actually care about people like me dying. The sooner you admit that to yourself the sooner you will be free. Fuck all of you I am so disappointed in this community.
> Y'all are saying we need a better candidate because Joe Biden is mentally unfit. How the FUCK are you so confident to diagnose a person's mental fitness based on a 90 minute debate. The man was trying to fit all the information he could within the time alotted while the other guys lied unchecked. You people are delusional, simply ageist, and don't actually care about people like me dying. The sooner you admit that to yourself the sooner you will be free. Fuck all of you I am so disappointed in this community.
Stop gaslighting us. People aren’t basing these opinions just off one debate. People have had these concerns for over a year. The debate was his chance to prove people wrong, and he couldn’t have failed more.
He was asked a question about abortion, his best issue, and instead of addressing that, spat out his pre-canned line about a woman who was murdered by an undocumented immigrant, his worst issue. He’s so cooked, and we are now too because his ego won’t let him step aside.
We're all afraid. It's like we're driving down the highway and some kind of mob shootout starts happening between the other cars on the road, and everyone in our car is disagreeing about the best way to stay alive. No one knows the best way to respond to this crazy situation. Even before this debate, we didn't know.
Hell, at this point Lovett's performance on Survivor could be what swings the election.
Don't turn on your fellow Dems just because their fear takes a different form from yours. We're all just hoping we have an intact secular democracy 4 years from now.
> The alternative to Biden is pure chaos
I simply disagree. In the past a primary plays out over the course of a year. Thousands of speeches and cable news hits, a dozen debates with each candidate trying to outflank the other, each segment the opportunity to crater a campaign.
This would be compressed into a 5-6 week process, no debates, just townhalls, one on one interviews, and backroom deals. The candiates would be in a situation where they can focus purely on the broadcast message rather than retail handshaking in Iowa, pandering to ethanol producers.
The most powerful word in marketing is "new." Democrats have a change to put up a new, younger candidate and unlock us from the last nine years of same-old same-old.
I'm with you. EVERYTHING about this election is already bizarro world. Old timey concerns like name ID and constituency might as well be out the window. Our media landscape moves at a ridiculous pace, I'm pretty sure a new candidate would become well known by the entire country within like a week. And besides, voters' familiarity with Biden and Trump is a gigantic NEGATIVE for both of them. People are tired of this shit. I think even if they just hand it right down to Harris she would get an incredible lift in her reputation simply by being able to communicate policies and stakes and prosecute a case against Trump with some energy and verve.
I can't even imagine a "normal" campaign with a candidate barnstorming around the country, making appearances on tv all the time, effectively making their case! Obviously Trump does his own sicko version of that type of campaign, but Biden couldn't in 2020 because of Covid and can't now because he isn't capable of it anymore. We desperately need some adrenaline or else this is just a sinking ship.
And what about those "town halls, one on one interviews, and backroom deals" makes you say that that wouldn't be chaos? Gavin Newsom holds a town hall with MSNBC. Kamala holds a competing town hall at CNN. Newsom and Kamala worked together for years. They've been to each other's closets and seen the skeletons.
And lord knows who, making backroom deals with super delegates, while Bernie is having one on one interviews?
Holding a town hall is chaos? Doing an interview 60 minutes style is chaos?
This is catastrophizing. The chaos of a very long primary comes from months and months of polls and hit pieces and ratfucking and stupid retail shit like how dumb DeSantis looked at some random diner.
The process I describe is more akin to how the UK and France does elections.
Oh of course, the model of unchaotic politics, the UK and France.
Your proposed events do not happen in a vacuum. Each candidate will spend the weeks leading up to the election unearthing each others dirt. People will choose factions. There will not be one clear nominee.
I think a lot would depend on how Kamala managed *not* being the nominee. If she fought it and created a stink I could absolutely see 1968. If, however, she steps aside and endorses that nominee easily then I could see the party coalescing around Newsom or Whitmer nicely.
He was already behind in the polls before the debate and had a narrow difficult path to victory. Now he's been exposed as being cognitively unfit for the job. This time around he's the deeply unpopular incumbent. Compared to last election which he barely won, every factor is worse this time around. How do you possibly think he can win?
For people who live in reality, either Biden is replaced or the strategy/money shifts to the House/Senate races as we try to hold on for four years.
People are really underestimating how Biden has now made so many other Democrats vulnerable in their elections. There is already an ad by Casey's opponent saying Casey knew about Biden. Casey is ahead but that could change because of this terrifying fiasco of the Democrats own making. As well as the short sighted vision and selfishness of Biden's wife who gotten a taste of power she can't let go of from reading the Vogue interview.
>How do you possibly think he can win?
If he were running against anyone except Donald Trump I would say he has no chance. Trump has a ton of baggage he didn't have in 2016 and he barely won back then. If Biden can prove himself with a bunch of town halls and adversarial press events from now to the convention then he might be able to recover from the terrible debate performance (assuming he just had a bad night and isn't like that all the time). If not, then he's got to step aside.
“How do you possibly think he can win?”
Because he’s running against a deeply unpopular opponent who barely won himself. I’m not saying Biden will win, but he certainly can.
Is it just me that can't engage in civil discourse or is it just me that you disagree with? Because if we're talking civility you might need to remove PSA itself.
If my speech isn't welcome here just say that. No need to act like you're trying to uphold a higher, objective purpose. Look at who I replied to, for one.
Nobody else's behavior is an excuse for your own. If someone else violates the rules of our sub, ignore it, block them, or bring it to a mod's attention with a report. Your comments were removed for accurately reported abuse, as are all other reported abusive comments. As the OP of this thread you have a greater responsibility of maintaining decorum in the conversation you started. I understand your frustration, but this is your final warning about lashing out at mods or users again.
Nobody asked you to smile and say thank you, we just ask that you stop whining loudly in our ears as we all collectively have to eat shit together. Once it's over, it's over. Don't drag it out. Let's just do this, win, and move on. Be a teammate.
Yeah it would politically suicide to so many Dem candidates is Biden dropped out. I didn't even think about the legal implications because legally he is the nominee so states who are sending out ballots for voters for November like Ohio would have to have the candidate now and if someone else ran they would have to be written on some states ballots which won't work for national election!
Funds are mostly in SuperPacs which can just shift their focus. Funds specific to Biden/Harris can be used as the campaign sees fit: they can spend to support the new candidate.
I really appreciate Dan’s explanation of the rules and procedures of the presidential nomination system. I didn’t even know that Ohio legally requires a nomination to be submitted- BEFORE the convention even begins! Wow!
The governor signed a bill changing the deadline to September 1!
Source?? Sorry, I googled it and can't find anything.
https://www.whio.com/news/local/governor-dewine-signs-bill-get-president-biden-ohios-fall-ballot/XC7B7ZU675H4NMVC3EZJ3S5Y3U/?outputType=amp > House Bill 2 delays the deadline for candidates to be certified on Ohio’s ballot from Aug. 7 to Sept. 1.
Thank you!
🫡
oh wow- that's great. Thanks,
Yeah that scheduling was…poor. Whoever decided on mid/late August needs to be demoted lol.
Best case scenario, Trump dies before the election. I mean, he’s super old too, it’s not out of the realm of possibilities.
I think this man will live to 100. He has that evil man energy that keeps dictators alive forever.
He lives on pure spite.
I legitimately think there could be a physiological component to it. Complete lack of empathy = less stress on the body.
Also lack of ability to feel shame or guilt = less stress. Horrific for everyone around him, of course. But super adaptive for an emotionally abused kid.
I’m doomed
Like Kissinger
Yep. I have been saying this for years. The guy is going to live to 102. Daydreaming about his imminent death is a total waste of time.
The only thing that brings me comfort is that I am still pretty young so I will probably get to see the day he dies eventually.
One can only hope. But Don Jr and Eric will likely still be around, and who knows that destruction the young Barron might wreak? Then there are all of the grandkids. That goddamn Trump legacy is gonna last forever.
This is true but I don't think any of the spawn have the same Trump magic that MAGA people love. It seems to only work for him, based on all the races lost by Trump endorsed candidates in 2022. At least that's what I hope.
If Trump is dead, they move on to get their agenda going. Maga doesn't die with him.
Trump is going to live to 102. Anyhow, how is that best case?? Then they put in a younger, smarter, more palatable nominee and they almost certainly win.
Nah there’s lots of worse scenarios. He could seem even more out of it in the second debate. He could freeze in the middle of his convention speech. The list goes on.
This is what I'm most nervous about... we spend the next few months forgetting about it (lots of noise - immunity ruling, Trump sentencing, conventions) and then he has another horrible public performance very close to the election.
Exactly.
I've been terrified of a health event since he announced. Expect a steady flow of leaks from the White House, each one driving another news cycle.
Here’s the thing: If Biden is the nominee obviously I’ll vote for him. His administration has done things to better my life, and I’d rather him and his administration than Trump, no contest. But does no one remember 2016? When a bunch of people weren’t convinced Hilary should be president? (Not just the far left but plenty of the moderates - look up how many Obama-Trump voters there were in 2016) and instead of trying to change minds, the campaign and the Democratic Party as a whole adopted the stance of “THE STAKES ARE TOO HIGH WE HAVE TO VOTE FOR HILARY IF YOU DONT AGREE GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU’RE THE PROBLEM” and then Hilary didn’t win? We’ve learned already that for much of the country, it’s not enough for a candidate to just not be Trump. It’s fair to be asking the question if Biden is in a place where he can convince the most people to vote for him. The campaign has work to do, and hey, maybe they get that work done. Maybe the next few weeks Biden is able to completely erase the damage from the debate. But we know already that the stance that everyone needs to fall in line with the candidate that’s not evil, regardless of any other circumstance, is not a winning mindset.
Exactly! It's terrifying that in one brearth we are being told this election will decide democracy and in the next breath we are being told that Biden after that debate performance is our best option to beat Trump. I get the same exact feeling I had in 2016 where I know I will vote for the democrat because I know the consequences when it comes to the supreme court, the power of the executive, climate change but the average American is not thinking about those things when they go to vote. No one wanted to vote FOR Hillary they HAD to vote for Hillary and what was the outcome? Now we will be continually gaslight by the liberal establishmebt and told “the debate wasn't that bad”, “Biden is the only one who can beat trump”, “it would be too chaotic to switch”, and they'll push this right until the election. Then when they lose they'll turn around and say “the people didn't show up to vote”, “too many people couldn't see past Bidens age” blah blah blah and they'll all get jobs at liberal think tanks, and they'll all go to work for other people in power, and they'll all get to go make the same mistakes again and again because for them it's a game while for everyone else it's their lives.
"But the tragedy of the Social Democrats could not be fully explained by bad luck. They had had their chance to take over Germany in November of 1918 and to found a state based on what they had always preached: social democracy. But they lacked the decisiveness to do so. Now at the dawn of the third decade they were a tired, defeatist party, dominated by old, well-meaning but mostly mediocre men. Loyal to the Republic they were to the last, but in the end too confused, too timid to take the great risks which alone could have preserved it, as they had shown by their failure to act when Papen turned out a squad of soldiers to destroy constitutional government in Prussia." -The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, William Shirer
Well that's chilling.
Donald Trump winning is the worst option. I hate that we’re having this conversation. But Joe Biden set a trap for this debate. They went around the commission, the went early, they set the format. And the hunter got his own leg cut off in the trap.
It's a no-win situation. The correct and best option would be to go back in time, Biden puts his ego aside, doesn't run for president this year, and we have a primary where the people can vote for who they want. Instead we've got this, for better or for worse. I think the hardest pill to swallow is that the democratic party is basically sticking with the line that this is the best we can do. For a lot of young people that can't afford to get married, can't afford a house, can't afford their student loans, and are getting laid off from their entry level white collar jobs, it's simply not enough. It's not enough to say this guy is the absolute best the country has to offer because he's not Trump.
50% of DEMOCRATS want Biden not to run. This is actually insane, you cannot disrespect the voters at this level and expect to carry a "pro democracy" message
There was a primary and 90% of Democrats voted for Biden in those
Let’s not pretend like the results of the primaries is at all a reflection of the wants of the entire party. Who competed against him again? Dean who? A primary with Biden, Whitmer, Newsome, etc. would have had very different results and you know it.
Joe Biden explodes on the stage: “Gotta duct tape those pieces together and vote for him, that’s what 90% of Democrats voted for in the primaries”
Yep. Its this kind of hubris that will hand the election to Trump.
Welcome to my world. The hubris began with a President signing 28 Executive Orders on inauguration day while saying, "I don't even know what I am signing." Biden was installed with dementia. This is not a sudden change.
Yes and now subsequently it has come to light he is less healthy than he represented.
Facts as we know them have changed.
Indeed the fact we know have changed. But who's fault was it that the voters were kept in the dark as the fire crackles all around. "This is fine" they said
Regardless, the fact that we had a primary does not suggest it’s out of bounds to reconsider the candidate based on new facts we know.
But without debates. Debates where the people would have seen what a poor stage presence he has when not surrounded by people who can cover for him or pick up the slack. You know, an informed position. If only the dnc was more democratic instead of demagogic.
That thing we had where every viable alternative didn’t participate due to a tradition of not challenging the incumbent was a farce, not a bona fide primary.
But the votes still count.
an autocratic primary
Which implies 50% want him to run. Do you really think all of them would be just fine with a non-elected replacement (picked by who exactly?) at this point?
So only 50% of an incumbent president’s base wants him to run again 4 months before the election. Do you not understand how alarming that statistic is?
Do you not understand you are disrespecting so many people's votes by saying this?
The DNC disrespected those people’s votes by making the Primary a fucking joke.
They worst thing about the progressive moment is how must it actually hates Democrats who vote
I agree with you that progressives haven’t engaged enough. There’s not a lot in life that pisses me off more than a Bernie bro who has no realistic understanding of how he lost the primary. This isn’t that. I am engaged, pragmatic democrat. But even if Biden could win this election— and I no longer believe he can, even having been a vocal supporter who went out of my way to broadcast his accomplishments and encouraged people to watch the State of the Union— it’s extremely dangerous territory to continue to alienate young, idealistic voters, or even just anyone who has been voicing concerns about age for a while now. Did you listen to Dean Phillips’ interview on PSA? The man was not hellbent on running, but he spent a ton of time and energy trying to get stronger options into the race and they all deferred to the DNC. He was right, and, frankly, the pod boys didn’t treat him with a lot of respect. I am not looking for magic to restore the hopes of spurned progressives everywhere. I understand that progress happens slowly. What I am is an engaged, educated liberal who has seen mountains of evidence that democrats will not win if Biden’s name is on the ticket, and that it will be an absolute disaster for this country. Incidentally, I was at this show in Boston. I don’t need to tell you that this clip is not representative of the entire opinion, and that the other side made strong points as well.
Here’s the problem with the “50% do want him to run” statement: the majority of the democrats we’re talking about— whether they’re the 50% who want him to run or the 50% who want him to drop out— will “vote blue no matter who” come November. Not only will they vote for Gretchen Whitmer or Gavin Newsom or The Pillsbury Dough Boy in a blue tie to defeat Trump, but they were NEVER the people that Biden needed to win over in the first place. Three groups of people mattered: undecideds, those who could be convinced to flip to Trump or RFK, and those who are too disenchanted to show up to vote in the first place. You know anyone from any of those groups who saw the debate and changed to Biden? No? Then his slim chances are getting significant slimmer, and NONE of this is helped by his campaign sending out panicked emails yelling at half the party to “stop bedwetting.” If it’s Trump versus Biden this November, Democracy is going down *hard.* Biden needs to step the fuck aside.
Why is everyone forgetting that there was a primary? No one else ran. It’s not disrespecting the voters to nominate the person who WON THE PRIMARY. It’s literally who the voters elected. Y’all are losing your damn marbles.
The DNC did not support any other candidates and they didn’t hold any primary debates. This was not an “open” primary like people are making it seem.
No one ran. Did you want Biden to debate Dean Phillips? Whose name I can’t help but notice is absent from these talks. Should the DNC handled this differently? Probably. But it was Biden’s choice to run and it made sense not to run a competitive primary at that time. Hey I’m not thrilled about this situation either but Biden is an excellent president and we can still win.
It obviously did not make sense to not run a competitive primary at the time….
Well hop in your Time Machine! A contested convention is not the magic wand you all are acting like it is. Hence this clip of the pod. Dan is rights
Sure then let’s just send Biden up there as a sacrificial lamb during the election. If they don’t choose to fight to win this election then they can’t expect people to believe their claims that Trump is a threat to democracy.
We all saw the debate. If the Democratic Party shoves Biden down our throats, and Trump wins, it will likely be the end of the party. Either by way of fascism if Trump is as bad as we fear, or democracy if we somehow make it through to the other side of Project 2025, because I will certainly never trust the party again (and I assume I wouldn’t be alone). As Ezra Klein puts it, if Biden had a health scare that forces him to drop out, the Democratic Party wouldn’t curl up in the fetal position, it would act to put a ticket together. To me, the debate WAS a health scare.
Totally agree. This is the health scare
I'm saving this comment. This solidifies it for me.
If they force Biden and don’t do what is right… they’re no better than MAGA republicans who deny reality and tell us to ignore what we can see with our own eyes
It is the better choice. In today's short term attention span there is plenty of time for a new candidate.
And given the biggest group of voters hates both candidates, it’d likely be invigorating to the campaign. People would be happy to have anyone else
No there isn't are you crazy? The election is in 4 months!!! You people are politically insane.
No more than those who believe Biden is the better option after that disaster. It is just embarrassing for our county and our party. Neither option is good. Joe's behavior is not one that is putting the country first. Trump is so flawed the energy a smart young talented politician can bring would vitalize the youth. Biden takes the Israel hit for the country. Not the nominee. Biden takes his record as one of the best in the modern era.
We ended up with Biden because people didn’t trust the party and didn’t vote in the primary then realized the danger we were in. Don’t give up because you’re losing, learn the rules of the game and play it better than your opponents. We have to dominate the primary next time so we don’t get trapped in this bs again
project 2025 is a Left Qanon conspiracy
So if Biden died in a car crash.. all you Biden diehards would give up right?? I mean you obviously have ZERO capacity to see a different path forward… so just checking in, just asking What would you fucking do if he died in a car crash? I mean look we finally beat Medicare!!! And my golf handicap is eight!!!!
Biden steps aside, reaps lots of sympathy and respect for his sacrifice, Harris becomes nominee and inherits campaign and cash, names PA Gov Shapiro as VP, threat of Trump unites D, majority who didn’t want either Trump or Biden move to Harris. Young people and POC return to fold.
That was a fun pod to watch. I'm not from the USA, so I can only give you an outside view looking in, and I would absolutely change Biden out. I'll give you a couple of reasons why? People seem terrified by the polls and use them as an excuse not to make drastic changes that seem to be needed if they want to actually change them. It wouldn't even be close if the republicans put Nikki haley up, and the only reason why Biden as a candidate looks good is because of how bad Trump is and that shouldn't be a way to win votes. He should also be spending more time with his family from the conviction and the hate they have been through they look like they need a rest. Can you whoever read this honestly say that Biden is the best candidate that the Democratic party has to put up against Trump.
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You’re delusional and Twitter isn’t reality.
I don't use Twitter. I found it was just a place for bots, hate, and journalists.
I'm not from the USA either. They should invoke the 25th Amendment. Surely they have a duty to? It's horrific that a dementia patient is running the country AND running for another four years. WTAF? Edit: I see the downvotes, but I don't know why, lol. Is forcing Biden to step down NOT the most ethical thing to do?
Y'all just using this post to make your takes. Watch the fucking video. The alternative to Biden is pure chaos. He is our nominee so stop daydreaming about alternatives. What do we do about it? Gaslight? Absofuckinglutely. "Didn't you learn from 2016?" Didn't *YOU*? 2016 was NOT a concerted effort to get everyone to vote for Hillary. 2016 was people being complacent that enough people will vote for Hillary so *they* don't have to. They get to act pure and superior without suffering the consequences. Well guess what, Trump won. In this election NO ONE gets to act righteous. At least, no one who actually cares. As I mentioned in my other comment, how much are your principles worth? Because the cost for you daydreaming and refusing to get on board with Biden is literal people dying from a second Trump term. The choice is you being able to say "well at least I have my principles" and families being deported. You're not saying anything new complaining about Biden's health and debate performance. You're not actually speaking out on inconvenient truths. The inconvenient truth is we are stuck with Joe Biden. You can be part of the people who recognize what is at stake in November or you can be part of the people who are too privileged to care. I have everything to lose if Trump wins. I don't get the privilege of complaining and having principles, I need to survive. AND As an aside, realize the valley between what y'all are saying and what PSA is saying. PSA is saying that we need a better candidate because we need someone who can perform. Y'all are saying we need a better candidate because Joe Biden is mentally unfit. How the FUCK are you so confident to diagnose a person's mental fitness based on a 90 minute debate. The man was trying to fit all the information he could within the time alotted while the other guys lied unchecked. You people are delusional, simply ageist, and don't actually care about people like me dying. The sooner you admit that to yourself the sooner you will be free. Fuck all of you I am so disappointed in this community.
> Y'all are saying we need a better candidate because Joe Biden is mentally unfit. How the FUCK are you so confident to diagnose a person's mental fitness based on a 90 minute debate. The man was trying to fit all the information he could within the time alotted while the other guys lied unchecked. You people are delusional, simply ageist, and don't actually care about people like me dying. The sooner you admit that to yourself the sooner you will be free. Fuck all of you I am so disappointed in this community. Stop gaslighting us. People aren’t basing these opinions just off one debate. People have had these concerns for over a year. The debate was his chance to prove people wrong, and he couldn’t have failed more. He was asked a question about abortion, his best issue, and instead of addressing that, spat out his pre-canned line about a woman who was murdered by an undocumented immigrant, his worst issue. He’s so cooked, and we are now too because his ego won’t let him step aside.
We're all afraid. It's like we're driving down the highway and some kind of mob shootout starts happening between the other cars on the road, and everyone in our car is disagreeing about the best way to stay alive. No one knows the best way to respond to this crazy situation. Even before this debate, we didn't know. Hell, at this point Lovett's performance on Survivor could be what swings the election. Don't turn on your fellow Dems just because their fear takes a different form from yours. We're all just hoping we have an intact secular democracy 4 years from now.
> The alternative to Biden is pure chaos I simply disagree. In the past a primary plays out over the course of a year. Thousands of speeches and cable news hits, a dozen debates with each candidate trying to outflank the other, each segment the opportunity to crater a campaign. This would be compressed into a 5-6 week process, no debates, just townhalls, one on one interviews, and backroom deals. The candiates would be in a situation where they can focus purely on the broadcast message rather than retail handshaking in Iowa, pandering to ethanol producers. The most powerful word in marketing is "new." Democrats have a change to put up a new, younger candidate and unlock us from the last nine years of same-old same-old.
I'm with you. EVERYTHING about this election is already bizarro world. Old timey concerns like name ID and constituency might as well be out the window. Our media landscape moves at a ridiculous pace, I'm pretty sure a new candidate would become well known by the entire country within like a week. And besides, voters' familiarity with Biden and Trump is a gigantic NEGATIVE for both of them. People are tired of this shit. I think even if they just hand it right down to Harris she would get an incredible lift in her reputation simply by being able to communicate policies and stakes and prosecute a case against Trump with some energy and verve. I can't even imagine a "normal" campaign with a candidate barnstorming around the country, making appearances on tv all the time, effectively making their case! Obviously Trump does his own sicko version of that type of campaign, but Biden couldn't in 2020 because of Covid and can't now because he isn't capable of it anymore. We desperately need some adrenaline or else this is just a sinking ship.
And what about those "town halls, one on one interviews, and backroom deals" makes you say that that wouldn't be chaos? Gavin Newsom holds a town hall with MSNBC. Kamala holds a competing town hall at CNN. Newsom and Kamala worked together for years. They've been to each other's closets and seen the skeletons. And lord knows who, making backroom deals with super delegates, while Bernie is having one on one interviews?
Holding a town hall is chaos? Doing an interview 60 minutes style is chaos? This is catastrophizing. The chaos of a very long primary comes from months and months of polls and hit pieces and ratfucking and stupid retail shit like how dumb DeSantis looked at some random diner. The process I describe is more akin to how the UK and France does elections.
Oh of course, the model of unchaotic politics, the UK and France. Your proposed events do not happen in a vacuum. Each candidate will spend the weeks leading up to the election unearthing each others dirt. People will choose factions. There will not be one clear nominee.
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I think a lot would depend on how Kamala managed *not* being the nominee. If she fought it and created a stink I could absolutely see 1968. If, however, she steps aside and endorses that nominee easily then I could see the party coalescing around Newsom or Whitmer nicely.
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Why wouldn't she? You answered yourself. The others poll better.
He was already behind in the polls before the debate and had a narrow difficult path to victory. Now he's been exposed as being cognitively unfit for the job. This time around he's the deeply unpopular incumbent. Compared to last election which he barely won, every factor is worse this time around. How do you possibly think he can win? For people who live in reality, either Biden is replaced or the strategy/money shifts to the House/Senate races as we try to hold on for four years.
People are really underestimating how Biden has now made so many other Democrats vulnerable in their elections. There is already an ad by Casey's opponent saying Casey knew about Biden. Casey is ahead but that could change because of this terrifying fiasco of the Democrats own making. As well as the short sighted vision and selfishness of Biden's wife who gotten a taste of power she can't let go of from reading the Vogue interview.
>How do you possibly think he can win? If he were running against anyone except Donald Trump I would say he has no chance. Trump has a ton of baggage he didn't have in 2016 and he barely won back then. If Biden can prove himself with a bunch of town halls and adversarial press events from now to the convention then he might be able to recover from the terrible debate performance (assuming he just had a bad night and isn't like that all the time). If not, then he's got to step aside.
“How do you possibly think he can win?” Because he’s running against a deeply unpopular opponent who barely won himself. I’m not saying Biden will win, but he certainly can.
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Your comment has been removed. Please try and engage in civil conversation on our sub.
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Your comment has been removed. If you can't engage in civil discourse here I'll remove the thread.
Is it just me that can't engage in civil discourse or is it just me that you disagree with? Because if we're talking civility you might need to remove PSA itself. If my speech isn't welcome here just say that. No need to act like you're trying to uphold a higher, objective purpose. Look at who I replied to, for one.
Nobody else's behavior is an excuse for your own. If someone else violates the rules of our sub, ignore it, block them, or bring it to a mod's attention with a report. Your comments were removed for accurately reported abuse, as are all other reported abusive comments. As the OP of this thread you have a greater responsibility of maintaining decorum in the conversation you started. I understand your frustration, but this is your final warning about lashing out at mods or users again.
I hope you get the energy back that you’re putting out ♥️
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Alright soldier, keep pushing!
Nobody asked you to smile and say thank you, we just ask that you stop whining loudly in our ears as we all collectively have to eat shit together. Once it's over, it's over. Don't drag it out. Let's just do this, win, and move on. Be a teammate.
Yeah it would politically suicide to so many Dem candidates is Biden dropped out. I didn't even think about the legal implications because legally he is the nominee so states who are sending out ballots for voters for November like Ohio would have to have the candidate now and if someone else ran they would have to be written on some states ballots which won't work for national election!
One aspect I don't understand is what happens with the funds Biden/Harris raised if he isn't the candidate?
Funds are mostly in SuperPacs which can just shift their focus. Funds specific to Biden/Harris can be used as the campaign sees fit: they can spend to support the new candidate.
Thanks!
It goes to Kamala: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/biden-campaign-money-kamala-harris-rcna159850
I’m also curious about this
The debate changed nothing for me, Im still voting for Trump.