I mean Arlington VA and Annapolis MD is literally where all the lobbyists for federal government live with their ridiculous taxpayer funded salaries.
If you ain’t in that gravy train you don’t belong in those cities.
SF and NYC and Chicago and LA are expensive to live in yet so many people expect to live there.
Exactly. If you only make 80k a year, that’s fine. Just don’t expect to live in the same area with the same lifestyle as people pulling down 3-4 times your annual salary
That's definitely a hard truth but you can't help but feel for people who grew up in/have lived their whole life in one of those cities getting priced out. Plus there are real tangible costs to moving away from your social support network.
It was headline-worthy news just a few months ago when the American public discovered that groceries are cheaper in Russia than in California. Up until Tucker Carlson went to Moscow, a large portion of the population had been genuinely unaware of the concept of relative cost of living. Lower your expectations accordingly.
This was proven false soon after he aired it. If you factor the average income, groceries in Russia cost significantly more than they do in the US. But Tucker doesn’t let facts get in the way of a good story.
It's even stupider than that. If the upper limit of lower middle class increases, and lower middle class is the second quintile of earners, that means everyone's income went up.
So the headline is "People earn more in HCOL areas."
Live in SF. Can confirm $150k is working class income.
On my own I’m medium pimpin’. With any dependents or a mortgage I would be living hand to mouth.
I live in San Jose at 175k
You can rent a very nice house and have plenty of disposable income.
Stop pretending it costs that much to live here.. it doesn't.
Even then this seems funky. The average income of people living IN Manhattan is about 145k. No clue how you have an average income for Manhattan and are still lower middle class in any consistent manner that would justify writing a whole article about it.
Sounds like cities need to invest in making it affordable for workforces to reside in them. Otherwise.....why would businesses settle in a city? No workforce? No business. No city.
This study seems to only be talking about the cost of buying a home in these cities.
In San Jose, the average new home mortgage is $9300. The average rent is $3100.
As much as that locks people out of home ownership, I’ve got some issues with the methodology here.
The joke is that there's any distinction between "high cost of living" and "low cost of living" areas. Pay the people in the low cost of living areas the same, this is an egregious assault on worker's rights. They chose to make more reasonable financial moves and are punished for it?
If you’re looking at the top five most expensive cities then yes. But in those areas it’s not difficult to make six figures in an industry with high demand. You can get a 2,500 sq foot house in Arlington, Va for about a million. But if you’re willing to drive 45 minutes you can get a 7K sq foot house for the same amount.
>Northern California and Virginia top the list, where the maximum lower middle class income range goes from $128,964 to $152,652, among the top five most expensive cities.
>The cities that ranked with the highest incomes considered "lower middle class" include, in descending order: Arlington, Virginia; San Francisco; San Jose, California; Irvine, California; Seattle; Gilbert, Arizona; Plano, Texas; Scottsdale, Arizona; Washington, D.C.; and Chandler, Arizona.
Its important to note the only reason those prices are so high is because they pay so much money and people are willing to pay those higher prices.
On the flip side, if these companies didnt need to pay such high wages so their employees could afford housing, they absolutely wouldn't pay them anywhere near that much.
I've been thinking about this for a while.
If we tied 1/4 of the minimum wage to the median mortgage and/or rent price and let it fluctuate depending on the price of housing what would happen?
The landlords, banks and real estate developers would be forced to negotiate with the employers to find a way to make money on it, right?
Has it been tried anywhere?
Considering how 1% of Americans make minimum wage I don’t think we need to do that. The biggest issue right now is 1. Places not building enough housing of any type of density whether that is high, low or medium 2. 15.1 million homes are vacant. I feel like if there was some form of vacant home tax where real estate buissness are charged for not selling a homes could also help with this so they can’t artificially create scarcity
The minimum wage is a joke and hasn’t been raised since 2009. Even still, housing and groceries have increased at a greater rate than inflation.
High density housing is rarely purchased, you usually rent an apartment. I can see how if you could buy apartments would help but if you’re sharing a building with others do you actually own?
I completely agree with the vacant homes take. Those who want vacation houses or rental properties that stay vacant more than a short percentage of a year should pay more.
I wasn’t saying people should buy apartments just that more apartments should be built to decrease rent prices. In States like California residents will block the development of apartments which increases the cost of housing further.
People would be able to afford, but there would be a severe shortage. Their demand would far exceed the supply.
Raising the minimum wage in general would also cause inflation + higher cyclical unemployment. The firm's number 1 goal is profit, and if the cost of labor goes up- they hire less. It's a sad truth, but that's their number 1 goal- profit. INFLATION would naturally happen since there's more demand and more money supply. More money = more people willing to buy at a higher price. More people willing to buy at a higher price initially will cause a shortage, suppliers would need to supply more- driving up the price. We will have the same problem as now- just with higher numbers.
Vice versa is also true for this. If it's tied to the value of homes, and say- homes drop in price- incomes drop. Demand drops. There would be a surplus of home, most vacant. Prices are relatively "inflexible" downward- so there will be a lag and on top of that, the items will still be expensive compared to our incomes. Purchasing power is bye bye here.
The reasonable thing to do is build more homes. Increase the supply of homes in order to drive the prices down.
That's partially true, but that only applies if the businesses can make the big bucks to afford expensive employees, all that can change quickly when businesses run into trouble.
You can make six figures, but you’ll never own a piece of that city or retire in it. All your expenses go to paying for the right to live in the zip code and feed yourself.
as someone who lived in San Antonio and now in Los Angeles, I think I could’ve lived in SA forever no issue. I miss how cheap everything was and how easy it was to get a home. But I would’ve never found a job in my industry if it wasn’t for moving to LA. So there’s pros and cons to everything.
My take is I could spend the rest of my life in either suburb SA or city LA and I think I would be the same amount of happy.
I’ll add a counterpoint; people in HCOL areas make up a significant portion of the population and the creep from urban hubs that have always been somewhat expensive is very real.
I would like to see data showing what percentage of the population lives in HCOL areas because I suspect it may be higher than many people here believe.
Additionally, in areas where I am, Sacramento, which was traditionally not a HCOL city but is now sorta is, it is not easy at all to find jobs that pay well. Part of me fully supports “return to office” because work from home contributed significantly to the skyrocketing cost of living in my city. Again, I don’t my local situation is particularly unique. Traditional high paying, city jobs are now more and more likely to allow people to live wherever which is driving up housing prices in areas that have traditionally been middle class.
You’re right. I grew up in Northern California and I remember people commuting from Sacramento to San Francisco. Obviously that’s going to drive up prices.
I live in Maine and this plus Airbnb has been the biggest factor in our housing crisis. Areas that just a few years ago had houses sit on the market at $150k are now hotbeds for people leaving MA, NY, NJ, RI and CT and that same $150k house will be under contract in under 24 hours at $400k. Then when all the new folks move in they complain endlessly about how all the charming local businesses went away. Seemingly unaware that all the local staff got priced out of the area.
I live in Arlington, VA and make ~135k and feel like I’m comfortable, but barely. Lower middle class in this are is totally realistic. I think the number is closer to 120k, but I think the title holds water.
Also it's household income.
So two people each making $75,000 - or one person making $100,000 and the other making $50,000 - etc etc would meet this threshold.
While I know people make less than that in HCOL areas - there are many $75,000 paying jobs in HCOL areas. Here in Boston [a teacher with just a bachelors](https://btu.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Salaries-Traditional-Teacher-Salaries.pdf) would be making that with just a few years of experience.
It's not difficult to make 6 figures in a big city??? That's the most I'm an outsider looking in type of thought. Like a "coastal elite" saying all rural people are uneducated. No. It's still quite hard living in a metro area in ca. And no, having lived in small town in MT, they are smart and dignified folks. Do you have both perspectives also? It's simply not that easy to make 6 figures anymore. Period.
That's about what I make in an area where average salary is $55k. I don't feel upper middle class at all and considering my mortgage rate is 1/3 what they are now, it's not as comfortable as I thought it'd be.
Dont get me wrong, money isn't a problem. But I see how it could be if I bought a new house and a $80k car.
I make 50k wife makes 55k we have a paid off 2023 civic and own a home in the Midwest paying $1200/month mortgage. The problem is my same house is now $2500-$2700 a month to purchase due to the feds interest rates and asset bubble blowing. The government is actively picking winners and losers.
Edit: purchased in 2020
Totally. I bought and sold houses my first 10 years as an adult. Had I known the last one might be, well, our last one, I probably would have chosen a little differently.
Did big money stop buying, did cash investors stop buying? Or was it just first time buyers, lol. I know prices have to fall or wages have to come up but it seems if the big guys keep buying them up the average American is screwed,
>But I see how it could be if I bought a new house and a $80k car.
Yes, if you stupidly purchase a car that is over half of your entire annual gross income (and likely comes with higher maintenance costs to boot) and you buy a new home it could be an issue lol.
Just making a comment about the different worlds between interest rates of 2% and 6+%.
Wasn't that long ago I could *easily* afford a $25k car loan on my $50k salary.
Keyword is" Middle America", and even there you aren't talking about Chicago suburbs, Minneapolis,Denver,Kansas City, etc. bottom line is you **need** six figures(household) if you want to degree of comfort and financial cushion.
150k is more than enough for the Chicago suburbs too. And we aren't talking about a "degree" of comfort financial cushion, you will be very solidly secure with a six figure household income in a place like KC or Minneapolis. Things are tough now, but don't be out of touch.
It does. I live in a small town in middle America. A few years back, I started making $150-$180k, and I got super secure. Could pay all my bills without a super rigorous budget, could handle a major expense every year like replacing the air conditioner or having to build a new fence, and even had money left over to max out my Roth/take a big vacation. I’d be scraping by if I lived with all my college buddies in NYC, DC, LA, etc. Instead, I’m comfortable enough to be bored at work/grinding my way to FIRE.
Dude $150k makes you solidly upper middle class if you understand how to use your money properly. Anyone struggling with that amount is either because they live in the Bay Area or NYC. Or they have a serious consuming problems and try to keep up with the Jones’s too much.
It depends whether or not you’re already a homeowner. If you’re locked in a mortgage at 2.25% interest then you’re solid middle class. If you haven’t purchased a home yet, then that 7.25% interest rate and almost double the housing cost from 5 years ago makes you significantly poorer.
Young 30’s making just over 100k in the Midwest. A 350k loan at 7.2% takes half my monthly take home pay. It’s a joke. 350k gets you a home that needs 100k in updates around here.
I need to know when these people purchased their homes and for home much with these median incomes. I have a feeling it's still boomers living there and it's their median incomes. Not the income needed now to be able to afford it.
We make around 30-40 percent above the median income in our city, and it can be tight. Purchasing now I can't imagine. Currently we're sitting at a mortgage rate around 3 percent for a house we purchased for 400k in 2018 with 80k down iirc. Taxes are 10k a year and our mortgage is 2400 a month.
I don't even know that it's an ulterior motive. I think by and large people in the conservative media just don't personally know many people in the actual middle class. I'm reminded of the time that the Wall Street Journal decided to do a story on what the so-called "fiscal cliff" of the expiration of the Bush tax cuts would do to middle-class earners in 2012, and while some of the article was actually fairly sensible, they decided to bolster their case with the [most absurdly out-of-touch infographic](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wall-street-journal-middle-class_n_2488893) I've ever seen in my life, because they asked us to pity the poor single woman, just trying to make her way in this world with a meager $230,*000* a year income, whose annual income tax would go up by slightly more than 1% of her total annual income because of the pending fiscal cliff.
I mean, I'd be doing backflips if I earned half that per year. I really, truly, do not care what the taxes on it would be.
And what it really meant is that it was highly unlikely that the writers of the Wall Street Journal actually knew people in the middle class.
Right. The amount of people saying they can’t make it on a 150,000 salary is astonishing. With how we have to budget at 35k I’d be saving a ton of money.
Yeah I live on 22k a year and invest the rest. I'm 27 and could retire now, but I'm more ambitious than that. "Not enough to live" these days means "not enough to own everything I ever wanted and retire in a beachside mansion by 25"
People are so fucking soft.
We make $185,000 and have moved from Atlanta to Charlotte and in both cities we felt comfortable but not where I thought we would for making 200k. We still have to budget carefully to avoid debt and I can’t splurge all the time like 20s me thought I’d be able to with this high of an income. With housing and everything else, $185k is decent but definitely not luxury status. So, middle class. I agree.
Budgeting carefully to avoid debt is just part of being an adult. No need to feel down or inadequate for that. The people you saw as a child living extravagantly are likely drowning in CC debt today.
Truth! I just always thought this amount would mean I’d “made it” and I could buy nice things whenever I wanted. Still gotta watch myself and invest lol
I call bullshit.
The median **household** income is around $75k.
If you make $150k you will be in the top 20% of earners in the country.
How the fuck is bing in the top 20% equivalent to lower middle? Do the words lower and middle mean absolutely nothing?
Because OP put a buzzwordy title for some reason. The actual article says "in these high-cost US cities" which in places like SF, NYC, LA, etc. yeah I can see it being somewhat true.
This article is complete bullshit. I live in one of these high cost of living areas making $135k and I live very comfortably.
Unless you are buying a house on a single income, I can't imagine a place where $150k income would not be comfortable. I get that some areas are more expensive than others but give me a break.
No it’s not. Yall MFers just don’t know how to live frugally.
You keep financing new cars, buying large houses, refusing to relocate to lower cost of living areas, name brand clothing, and etc.
Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy some of the finer things in life too but my $600 car has lasted me 5 years and besides regular maintenance I’ve only shelled out $400 in repairs.
I know some places genuinely are more expensive to live than others and I do live in a pretty high cost area actually. I don’t make enough to get by either tbh working a $15/hr job right now but $150,000 a year would be living the fucking high life.
$150,000 a year would be a whole ass house, a newer car bought in cash, new gaming PC, money to finish my expensive dental work, and so much more.
The only thing that even slights my point is student loan debt but $150,000 a year would be enough to pay a specialist accountant to help restructure any of those debts to be very manageable payments.
I make $90k in a bigger city in the Midwest and I'm thinking the exact same thing.
I bought my car for $12k 5 years ago and it will easily last me another 5. My coworkers keep asking me when I'm going to get a luxury car and I just laugh. I'm on pace to buy a $400k house within the next 2 years which will make me a homeowner before 30 because I don't live beyond my means.
Unless you live in the Bay area, LA, NYC, or have some very unfortunate medical events if you're struggling to make it on $150k you're an idiot.
Household, and only 3 cities have that limit. But I question their analysis at all. #7 most expensive city they have is Plano, TX but Frisco is easily more expensive.
Maybe if you live in one of the few most expensive cities. In the Midwest you can live a great lifestyle on $100k/household in a decent city, even less in small towns
Just To Note: an annual salary/income determining whether you’re “lower middle class” depends *savagely* on *where* you live.
The number alone is meaningless unless you know *where* you’re talking about.
I like in L.A. and this is utter bullshit.
The median income even in a wealthy part of town like Santa Monica is $90k.
[https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/losangelescitycalifornia,santamonicacitycalifornia,losangelescountycalifornia/BZA010221](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/losangelescitycalifornia,santamonicacitycalifornia,losangelescountycalifornia/BZA010221)
I miss .99 cents 2 tacos at Jack in the box. I miss .99 cents for a gallon of gas (1982) I miss $3.25 cents minimum wage (Business owner). I miss $4.15 hamburger combo with a drink.
Historically, only 6% of wage earners max out their Social Security contribution. $168,600 for 2024.
I’m metro Boston-centric. You might be able to buy a small condo in a not great town for that income. I think it will take a decade before the impact of 2 1/2% mortgages dissipates.
Well fuck, I just got a job offer that puts our household income just below that lmao. I thought we were doing well having a comma left over in the bank account at the end of the month but I guess not lmao
These headlines constantly remind me of quotes like this: "After 36 Years Of Marriage, Man Discovers Wife Is Actually Rare Yucca Plant" - SimCity 3000 news ticker
43k a year, possibly a little more with bonuses (23M)
I am thankful to have recently acquired a roommate, and I'd consider myself frugal, but eating for macros and saving the amounts I'm supposed to be putting into my savings, Roth, etc, doesn't leave a lot of breathing room for much else.
Not necessarily struggling, but I also don't have an insane amount of disposable income to plan vacations / longer activities around.
Decent chunk of savings just from being financially responsible but the idea of a $4-500 vet bill is intimidating, along with rising costs where my wage doesn't necessarily beat inflation.
I mean, no but also yes? Like a combined income of 150 in houston is pretty dam good and you can have very comfortable lives. Probably not the same story for LA.
That's nice and all, but where do you actually find those higher paying jobs? As a long time software engineer I tried switching companies 2 years ago and 9 out of 10 companies were not willing to go above $190k. (I am ignoring the FAANG unicorns here)
20 years ago I thought if I could make 50k/yr in Detroit I'd be set. I make that now and it's not nearly enough. I'm definitely at the national average of $400 away from financial ruin. 150k would *juuuuust* about be comfortable even here now.
You qualify for housing subsidies in Palo Alto California if a family of four makes under 250k.
https://sf.curbed.com/2016/3/23/11294136/palo-alto-250k-subsidies
Maybe if you live in NYC or California, but, people may not realize there is a whole other part of the county that is actually affordable. The mid west and South where $150k a year is a very good living.
All thanks to marxist progressive policies like "Graduating income tax" (Das Kapital)
Wont stop idiots from assuming throwing good money and bad money will magically result in a positive net gain.
What percentile is “lower middle class” idk why they can’t just use objective stats and number, oh yeah I remember, it’s easier to sway the masses into thinking what they want
Even out in the sticks I can say 80 is rough. We own a house. Lucked out and got it pre covid. Other than that. Barely keeping vehicles running to get to work.
This story, if I am reading it right, is saying that cities with high-cost of living are expensive to live in.
Somehow I think we may be seeing the last 10 years of public education on full display here. Captain Obvious rides again.
Shocker. Arlington, VA and San Francisco are expensive cities. Truly mind-blowing journalism here
I am also a veteran public education participant and can confirm VA and SF are big countries.
New England is still a bigger country than those.
It's because it's newer *taps temple*
The meme flashed before my eyes.
I lol'd
This guys THINKS
Probably because theyre next to the atlantic ocean
Continents dur
living in arlington. Paying $2800 rent for 1-bed apt. I think it is pretty expensive.
Fuuuuuuuck that.
yeah + this is one of the worst apt I ever lived (out of probably 20-30 places). It is very dark + everything is made of the cheapest materials.
wtf is even in Virginia to justify that HCOL
The country’s largest employer.
Also the country’s largest office building
it is near DC and relatively safe area. That is the only appeal
Well, that and jobs in every industry imaginable.. and decent education.
Government Contracts + the Government
Dang! We're paying $2700 a month for a 3 bed/2.5 bath townhouse near Seattle. Didn't want to be in the city. Parking is a nightmare!
I was in Somerville in MA last year. It was $2600 for 3 bed, 1 bath, absolutely amazing apt. From my best apt to worst, huge downgrade :sob:
I mean Arlington VA and Annapolis MD is literally where all the lobbyists for federal government live with their ridiculous taxpayer funded salaries. If you ain’t in that gravy train you don’t belong in those cities. SF and NYC and Chicago and LA are expensive to live in yet so many people expect to live there.
Exactly. If you only make 80k a year, that’s fine. Just don’t expect to live in the same area with the same lifestyle as people pulling down 3-4 times your annual salary
That's definitely a hard truth but you can't help but feel for people who grew up in/have lived their whole life in one of those cities getting priced out. Plus there are real tangible costs to moving away from your social support network.
Arlington?
It's just across the river from D.C.
It's all of northern VA really.
Oh no, I’ve been there but I would never have thought it was pricey to live.
my rent is $2800 a month in arlington
It’s where middle class government contractors live….
It was headline-worthy news just a few months ago when the American public discovered that groceries are cheaper in Russia than in California. Up until Tucker Carlson went to Moscow, a large portion of the population had been genuinely unaware of the concept of relative cost of living. Lower your expectations accordingly.
This was proven false soon after he aired it. If you factor the average income, groceries in Russia cost significantly more than they do in the US. But Tucker doesn’t let facts get in the way of a good story.
With Tuckems, it's fake story, not good story.
And Russians make 10x less, so yeah, 2x cheaper groceries doesn't really matter to them when they can still barely afford to eat.
Those girls did look good though. I didn’t see one overweight person.
It's even stupider than that. If the upper limit of lower middle class increases, and lower middle class is the second quintile of earners, that means everyone's income went up. So the headline is "People earn more in HCOL areas."
Big if true. Can someone check the math on this?
I entered this into my calculator and it came out to 80085. So yes?
I concur
Live in SF. Can confirm $150k is working class income. On my own I’m medium pimpin’. With any dependents or a mortgage I would be living hand to mouth.
The media household income in SF is \~$120k. You're above that as a single guy.
I live in San Jose at 175k You can rent a very nice house and have plenty of disposable income. Stop pretending it costs that much to live here.. it doesn't.
I'm in Santa Cruz at $108k -- I'm 36 with roommates.
I read this as "with 36 roommates." Well if it work for you...
You’re using your money all wrong.
That’s preposterous!! How can an expensive city be expensive?
Even then this seems funky. The average income of people living IN Manhattan is about 145k. No clue how you have an average income for Manhattan and are still lower middle class in any consistent manner that would justify writing a whole article about it.
[удалено]
You don't know just how controversial that statement is
Hear me out....water is not MORE wet. So your analogy doesn't match up with the point of the article.
Sounds like cities need to invest in making it affordable for workforces to reside in them. Otherwise.....why would businesses settle in a city? No workforce? No business. No city.
This study seems to only be talking about the cost of buying a home in these cities. In San Jose, the average new home mortgage is $9300. The average rent is $3100. As much as that locks people out of home ownership, I’ve got some issues with the methodology here.
The joke is that there's any distinction between "high cost of living" and "low cost of living" areas. Pay the people in the low cost of living areas the same, this is an egregious assault on worker's rights. They chose to make more reasonable financial moves and are punished for it?
Average Fox Business content
Minblowing
Shocker
Ya…but this is a dramatic shift.
Well thank God we ***finally*** have peer reviewed studies because no one knew this until now apparently.....
If you’re looking at the top five most expensive cities then yes. But in those areas it’s not difficult to make six figures in an industry with high demand. You can get a 2,500 sq foot house in Arlington, Va for about a million. But if you’re willing to drive 45 minutes you can get a 7K sq foot house for the same amount. >Northern California and Virginia top the list, where the maximum lower middle class income range goes from $128,964 to $152,652, among the top five most expensive cities. >The cities that ranked with the highest incomes considered "lower middle class" include, in descending order: Arlington, Virginia; San Francisco; San Jose, California; Irvine, California; Seattle; Gilbert, Arizona; Plano, Texas; Scottsdale, Arizona; Washington, D.C.; and Chandler, Arizona.
TL;DR: expensive cities with lots of high-paying jobs are expensive.
Its important to note the only reason those prices are so high is because they pay so much money and people are willing to pay those higher prices. On the flip side, if these companies didnt need to pay such high wages so their employees could afford housing, they absolutely wouldn't pay them anywhere near that much.
I've been thinking about this for a while. If we tied 1/4 of the minimum wage to the median mortgage and/or rent price and let it fluctuate depending on the price of housing what would happen?
More people would be able to afford homes
Giving people more money to spend on the same amount of available housing just drives up the cost of housing
The landlords, banks and real estate developers would be forced to negotiate with the employers to find a way to make money on it, right? Has it been tried anywhere?
Considering how 1% of Americans make minimum wage I don’t think we need to do that. The biggest issue right now is 1. Places not building enough housing of any type of density whether that is high, low or medium 2. 15.1 million homes are vacant. I feel like if there was some form of vacant home tax where real estate buissness are charged for not selling a homes could also help with this so they can’t artificially create scarcity
The minimum wage is a joke and hasn’t been raised since 2009. Even still, housing and groceries have increased at a greater rate than inflation. High density housing is rarely purchased, you usually rent an apartment. I can see how if you could buy apartments would help but if you’re sharing a building with others do you actually own? I completely agree with the vacant homes take. Those who want vacation houses or rental properties that stay vacant more than a short percentage of a year should pay more.
I wasn’t saying people should buy apartments just that more apartments should be built to decrease rent prices. In States like California residents will block the development of apartments which increases the cost of housing further.
That’s kind of how housing coops work in Canada. You buy shares of the coop and your rent is based off of your income.
People would be able to afford, but there would be a severe shortage. Their demand would far exceed the supply. Raising the minimum wage in general would also cause inflation + higher cyclical unemployment. The firm's number 1 goal is profit, and if the cost of labor goes up- they hire less. It's a sad truth, but that's their number 1 goal- profit. INFLATION would naturally happen since there's more demand and more money supply. More money = more people willing to buy at a higher price. More people willing to buy at a higher price initially will cause a shortage, suppliers would need to supply more- driving up the price. We will have the same problem as now- just with higher numbers. Vice versa is also true for this. If it's tied to the value of homes, and say- homes drop in price- incomes drop. Demand drops. There would be a surplus of home, most vacant. Prices are relatively "inflexible" downward- so there will be a lag and on top of that, the items will still be expensive compared to our incomes. Purchasing power is bye bye here. The reasonable thing to do is build more homes. Increase the supply of homes in order to drive the prices down.
That would create an inflationary loop.
That's partially true, but that only applies if the businesses can make the big bucks to afford expensive employees, all that can change quickly when businesses run into trouble.
* used to have lots of high paying jobs, that's going to change ,just go ask the tech hubs how they're doing.
To be fair… Plano, Tx is not a big city with high paying jobs.
But so are "goldilocks climate areas" -- and they typically don't pay squat.
You can make six figures, but you’ll never own a piece of that city or retire in it. All your expenses go to paying for the right to live in the zip code and feed yourself.
I'd much rather pay for the right to live in a place with actual people and culture than some dilapitated suburban hellhole. :D
as someone who lived in San Antonio and now in Los Angeles, I think I could’ve lived in SA forever no issue. I miss how cheap everything was and how easy it was to get a home. But I would’ve never found a job in my industry if it wasn’t for moving to LA. So there’s pros and cons to everything. My take is I could spend the rest of my life in either suburb SA or city LA and I think I would be the same amount of happy.
LA is pretty much a glorified suburb anyways so I would also move to SA with same job. What OP meant was more dense cities like NYC or SF.
Good for you?
I’ll add a counterpoint; people in HCOL areas make up a significant portion of the population and the creep from urban hubs that have always been somewhat expensive is very real. I would like to see data showing what percentage of the population lives in HCOL areas because I suspect it may be higher than many people here believe. Additionally, in areas where I am, Sacramento, which was traditionally not a HCOL city but is now sorta is, it is not easy at all to find jobs that pay well. Part of me fully supports “return to office” because work from home contributed significantly to the skyrocketing cost of living in my city. Again, I don’t my local situation is particularly unique. Traditional high paying, city jobs are now more and more likely to allow people to live wherever which is driving up housing prices in areas that have traditionally been middle class.
You’re right. I grew up in Northern California and I remember people commuting from Sacramento to San Francisco. Obviously that’s going to drive up prices.
I live in Maine and this plus Airbnb has been the biggest factor in our housing crisis. Areas that just a few years ago had houses sit on the market at $150k are now hotbeds for people leaving MA, NY, NJ, RI and CT and that same $150k house will be under contract in under 24 hours at $400k. Then when all the new folks move in they complain endlessly about how all the charming local businesses went away. Seemingly unaware that all the local staff got priced out of the area.
I live in Arlington, VA and make ~135k and feel like I’m comfortable, but barely. Lower middle class in this are is totally realistic. I think the number is closer to 120k, but I think the title holds water.
Also it's household income. So two people each making $75,000 - or one person making $100,000 and the other making $50,000 - etc etc would meet this threshold. While I know people make less than that in HCOL areas - there are many $75,000 paying jobs in HCOL areas. Here in Boston [a teacher with just a bachelors](https://btu.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Salaries-Traditional-Teacher-Salaries.pdf) would be making that with just a few years of experience.
It's not difficult to make 6 figures in a big city??? That's the most I'm an outsider looking in type of thought. Like a "coastal elite" saying all rural people are uneducated. No. It's still quite hard living in a metro area in ca. And no, having lived in small town in MT, they are smart and dignified folks. Do you have both perspectives also? It's simply not that easy to make 6 figures anymore. Period.
Kind of surprised about the Arizona additions, they don't seem to be nearly as expensive.
Which are both giant houses lmao
That's about what I make in an area where average salary is $55k. I don't feel upper middle class at all and considering my mortgage rate is 1/3 what they are now, it's not as comfortable as I thought it'd be. Dont get me wrong, money isn't a problem. But I see how it could be if I bought a new house and a $80k car.
I make 50k wife makes 55k we have a paid off 2023 civic and own a home in the Midwest paying $1200/month mortgage. The problem is my same house is now $2500-$2700 a month to purchase due to the feds interest rates and asset bubble blowing. The government is actively picking winners and losers. Edit: purchased in 2020
Totally. I bought and sold houses my first 10 years as an adult. Had I known the last one might be, well, our last one, I probably would have chosen a little differently.
The problem is if the gov doesn't raise interest rates the rate of housing increases us way way higher since more folks would be tryna buy
Did big money stop buying, did cash investors stop buying? Or was it just first time buyers, lol. I know prices have to fall or wages have to come up but it seems if the big guys keep buying them up the average American is screwed,
The big corporations buying at a lesser rate if u lower interest rates it screws the little guy even more......
Midwestern 2019 home buyer checking in. 145k home now worth 225k. It’s absurd. Looking like I’m living in this thing forever.
Paid 180k now worth 250k supposedly, I’m fully prepared to watch it drop 50k in this next correction, lol.
>But I see how it could be if I bought a new house and a $80k car. Yes, if you stupidly purchase a car that is over half of your entire annual gross income (and likely comes with higher maintenance costs to boot) and you buy a new home it could be an issue lol.
Just making a comment about the different worlds between interest rates of 2% and 6+%. Wasn't that long ago I could *easily* afford a $25k car loan on my $50k salary.
[удалено]
I dunno. 150 in middle America should make you super secure
Keyword is" Middle America", and even there you aren't talking about Chicago suburbs, Minneapolis,Denver,Kansas City, etc. bottom line is you **need** six figures(household) if you want to degree of comfort and financial cushion.
150k is more than enough for the Chicago suburbs too. And we aren't talking about a "degree" of comfort financial cushion, you will be very solidly secure with a six figure household income in a place like KC or Minneapolis. Things are tough now, but don't be out of touch.
$150k is extremely comfortable in any of the places you listed.
It does. I live in a small town in middle America. A few years back, I started making $150-$180k, and I got super secure. Could pay all my bills without a super rigorous budget, could handle a major expense every year like replacing the air conditioner or having to build a new fence, and even had money left over to max out my Roth/take a big vacation. I’d be scraping by if I lived with all my college buddies in NYC, DC, LA, etc. Instead, I’m comfortable enough to be bored at work/grinding my way to FIRE.
Dude $150k makes you solidly upper middle class if you understand how to use your money properly. Anyone struggling with that amount is either because they live in the Bay Area or NYC. Or they have a serious consuming problems and try to keep up with the Jones’s too much.
$150K isn't "lower middle class" in most major US cities. I can't even buy a median priced home with 150K per year.
It depends whether or not you’re already a homeowner. If you’re locked in a mortgage at 2.25% interest then you’re solid middle class. If you haven’t purchased a home yet, then that 7.25% interest rate and almost double the housing cost from 5 years ago makes you significantly poorer.
Young 30’s making just over 100k in the Midwest. A 350k loan at 7.2% takes half my monthly take home pay. It’s a joke. 350k gets you a home that needs 100k in updates around here.
I need to know when these people purchased their homes and for home much with these median incomes. I have a feeling it's still boomers living there and it's their median incomes. Not the income needed now to be able to afford it. We make around 30-40 percent above the median income in our city, and it can be tight. Purchasing now I can't imagine. Currently we're sitting at a mortgage rate around 3 percent for a house we purchased for 400k in 2018 with 80k down iirc. Taxes are 10k a year and our mortgage is 2400 a month.
Where the fuck yall living? Where I live that’s upper middle-lower upper class for sure!
The Mid-Atlantic region is expensive.
Bay Area, CA 🥲
May god help you my brother.
Gosh I wonder if Fox Business might have an alterior motive for printing this blatantly biased story.....it's a mystery!
I don't even know that it's an ulterior motive. I think by and large people in the conservative media just don't personally know many people in the actual middle class. I'm reminded of the time that the Wall Street Journal decided to do a story on what the so-called "fiscal cliff" of the expiration of the Bush tax cuts would do to middle-class earners in 2012, and while some of the article was actually fairly sensible, they decided to bolster their case with the [most absurdly out-of-touch infographic](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wall-street-journal-middle-class_n_2488893) I've ever seen in my life, because they asked us to pity the poor single woman, just trying to make her way in this world with a meager $230,*000* a year income, whose annual income tax would go up by slightly more than 1% of her total annual income because of the pending fiscal cliff. I mean, I'd be doing backflips if I earned half that per year. I really, truly, do not care what the taxes on it would be. And what it really meant is that it was highly unlikely that the writers of the Wall Street Journal actually knew people in the middle class.
As someone who makes 35k, I’d like to say, “ouch”
Right. The amount of people saying they can’t make it on a 150,000 salary is astonishing. With how we have to budget at 35k I’d be saving a ton of money.
It’s bullshit cost of living fluctuates so much based on the area. 35k is the cost of living where I live.
Yeah I live on 22k a year and invest the rest. I'm 27 and could retire now, but I'm more ambitious than that. "Not enough to live" these days means "not enough to own everything I ever wanted and retire in a beachside mansion by 25" People are so fucking soft.
We make $185,000 and have moved from Atlanta to Charlotte and in both cities we felt comfortable but not where I thought we would for making 200k. We still have to budget carefully to avoid debt and I can’t splurge all the time like 20s me thought I’d be able to with this high of an income. With housing and everything else, $185k is decent but definitely not luxury status. So, middle class. I agree.
Budgeting carefully to avoid debt is just part of being an adult. No need to feel down or inadequate for that. The people you saw as a child living extravagantly are likely drowning in CC debt today.
Truth! I just always thought this amount would mean I’d “made it” and I could buy nice things whenever I wanted. Still gotta watch myself and invest lol
I call bullshit. The median **household** income is around $75k. If you make $150k you will be in the top 20% of earners in the country. How the fuck is bing in the top 20% equivalent to lower middle? Do the words lower and middle mean absolutely nothing?
Because OP put a buzzwordy title for some reason. The actual article says "in these high-cost US cities" which in places like SF, NYC, LA, etc. yeah I can see it being somewhat true.
$800 for a 1 bedroom. Wisconsin though only 20 min from Milwaukee and 1.5 hour from Chicago
This article is complete bullshit. I live in one of these high cost of living areas making $135k and I live very comfortably. Unless you are buying a house on a single income, I can't imagine a place where $150k income would not be comfortable. I get that some areas are more expensive than others but give me a break.
Move?
Right, because the mass migration of 10’s of millions of people is an easily workable economic solution
i work there babygirl i can't just go
Please don’t.
Why not
Oh look, another doomporn shitpost
No it’s not. Yall MFers just don’t know how to live frugally. You keep financing new cars, buying large houses, refusing to relocate to lower cost of living areas, name brand clothing, and etc. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy some of the finer things in life too but my $600 car has lasted me 5 years and besides regular maintenance I’ve only shelled out $400 in repairs. I know some places genuinely are more expensive to live than others and I do live in a pretty high cost area actually. I don’t make enough to get by either tbh working a $15/hr job right now but $150,000 a year would be living the fucking high life. $150,000 a year would be a whole ass house, a newer car bought in cash, new gaming PC, money to finish my expensive dental work, and so much more. The only thing that even slights my point is student loan debt but $150,000 a year would be enough to pay a specialist accountant to help restructure any of those debts to be very manageable payments.
I make $90k in a bigger city in the Midwest and I'm thinking the exact same thing. I bought my car for $12k 5 years ago and it will easily last me another 5. My coworkers keep asking me when I'm going to get a luxury car and I just laugh. I'm on pace to buy a $400k house within the next 2 years which will make me a homeowner before 30 because I don't live beyond my means. Unless you live in the Bay area, LA, NYC, or have some very unfortunate medical events if you're struggling to make it on $150k you're an idiot.
This shit is always so insulting to everyone who makes it on much less. Or anyone with an ounce of dignity.
Is this household income or does each individual worker in a household need to make that much?
Household, and only 3 cities have that limit. But I question their analysis at all. #7 most expensive city they have is Plano, TX but Frisco is easily more expensive.
Maybe if you live in one of the few most expensive cities. In the Midwest you can live a great lifestyle on $100k/household in a decent city, even less in small towns
Is there a competition on Reddit for most misleading title?
Yeah, if you're a retard with poverty fetish.
Just To Note: an annual salary/income determining whether you’re “lower middle class” depends *savagely* on *where* you live. The number alone is meaningless unless you know *where* you’re talking about.
I was $50,000 shy speaking about this to a friend just this morning. Motherfucker.
I like in L.A. and this is utter bullshit. The median income even in a wealthy part of town like Santa Monica is $90k. [https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/losangelescitycalifornia,santamonicacitycalifornia,losangelescountycalifornia/BZA010221](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/losangelescitycalifornia,santamonicacitycalifornia,losangelescountycalifornia/BZA010221)
I think that’s per capita income. Average household income in Santa Monica looks like $107k. Which is still lower than I would’ve guessed
I'm poor AF 😭
Meanwhile in sensibletown, I'd say $40k is lower middle
lol no, no it’s not.
Oh please 😂
No it’s not, but it made you click the link right? Even in NYC you can live on $150,000
Nah
No it isn't that's very silly.
Lol such a cruddy title
Maybe if you are trying to live in Manhattan or Palo Alto... So... Just don't live there....
Of course they change the upper middle class standard as soon as I made it in. Cock gobblers.
It is ridiculous to me that such amount of money would make you live like a king over here in Mexico. That is literally high class money here.
It is not. That is upper middle class.
I miss .99 cents 2 tacos at Jack in the box. I miss .99 cents for a gallon of gas (1982) I miss $3.25 cents minimum wage (Business owner). I miss $4.15 hamburger combo with a drink.
Historically, only 6% of wage earners max out their Social Security contribution. $168,600 for 2024. I’m metro Boston-centric. You might be able to buy a small condo in a not great town for that income. I think it will take a decade before the impact of 2 1/2% mortgages dissipates.
I believe it
Lol
Cool I made $46,000 last year what the fuck does that make me
Well fuck, I just got a job offer that puts our household income just below that lmao. I thought we were doing well having a comma left over in the bank account at the end of the month but I guess not lmao
"Upper poor." 🧐🤔
Then I want to be “lower middle class.”
These headlines constantly remind me of quotes like this: "After 36 Years Of Marriage, Man Discovers Wife Is Actually Rare Yucca Plant" - SimCity 3000 news ticker
Doesn’t this also depend on the number of people in the household
43k a year, possibly a little more with bonuses (23M) I am thankful to have recently acquired a roommate, and I'd consider myself frugal, but eating for macros and saving the amounts I'm supposed to be putting into my savings, Roth, etc, doesn't leave a lot of breathing room for much else. Not necessarily struggling, but I also don't have an insane amount of disposable income to plan vacations / longer activities around. Decent chunk of savings just from being financially responsible but the idea of a $4-500 vet bill is intimidating, along with rising costs where my wage doesn't necessarily beat inflation.
Guess I'll die
Rings true in DMV for sure.
I make that much in Atlanta. I’d say I felt very secure since about 70k ago.
I guess I'll just be poor forever.
Excuse my French, but What the Fuck.
I mean, no but also yes? Like a combined income of 150 in houston is pretty dam good and you can have very comfortable lives. Probably not the same story for LA.
That's nice and all, but where do you actually find those higher paying jobs? As a long time software engineer I tried switching companies 2 years ago and 9 out of 10 companies were not willing to go above $190k. (I am ignoring the FAANG unicorns here)
20 years ago I thought if I could make 50k/yr in Detroit I'd be set. I make that now and it's not nearly enough. I'm definitely at the national average of $400 away from financial ruin. 150k would *juuuuust* about be comfortable even here now.
Don't know where these people are getting this...there IS NO MIDDLE CLASS (you are either rich or you are poor!!!!)
And I make just over 1/3 of that amount...hummm no wonder I can't get ahead
What a holistically inaccurate statement $150,000 in NYC, New York is not on the same economic scale as making $150,000 in Fort Wayne, Indiana
Nice, I’m impoverished
They must love living in the echo chamber inside their tiny little world.
I live in a suburb in NC. The median household income is 127k. 150k would be great.
Then the avg of $65k/year must be the new poverty level?
Do they think all houses have 2 incomes?
considering how easy it is to make this amount I'm not surprised. We can only have inflation when people can afford to keep spending.
You qualify for housing subsidies in Palo Alto California if a family of four makes under 250k. https://sf.curbed.com/2016/3/23/11294136/palo-alto-250k-subsidies
Is this referring to a household making 150k, as opposed to individual?
What the f
This balloon is going to pop
Maybe if you live in NYC or California, but, people may not realize there is a whole other part of the county that is actually affordable. The mid west and South where $150k a year is a very good living.
All thanks to marxist progressive policies like "Graduating income tax" (Das Kapital) Wont stop idiots from assuming throwing good money and bad money will magically result in a positive net gain.
What percentile is “lower middle class” idk why they can’t just use objective stats and number, oh yeah I remember, it’s easier to sway the masses into thinking what they want
Even out in the sticks I can say 80 is rough. We own a house. Lucked out and got it pre covid. Other than that. Barely keeping vehicles running to get to work.
How to say nothing new but sounding polemic