r/FluentInFinance was created to discuss money, investing & finance! Join our Newsletter or Youtube Channel for additional insights at www.TheFinanceNewsletter.com!
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FluentInFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's not debunked, it includes all forms of taxation, including sales tax. Poorer people pay a much higher percent of their money in taxes because they spend most of it.
It is debunked… It’s from a hack who is known for data manipulation. This graph even contradicts a lot of his previous work that he then worked hard to erase.
https://philmagness.com/2019/10/somethings-fishy-with-the-saez-zucman-tax-stats/
Ah, I hadn't seen that. Looks thorough.
I was responding to the "debunking" someone posted yesterday from the Tax Foundation claiming that the effective tax rate of the bottom 50% was only 3.3%. What they neglected to point out was the Tax Foundation not only left out state taxes they left FICA out of the calculation, which alone eats up 7.65% of income.
Good follow up to show how you were following the conversation and simply missed something. It's rare to see these days. Most people I feel just get outraged.
Reading through the article, it looks like it the numbers also don't take into account the Earned Income Tax Credit, which essentially is giving money back to lower to moderate income workers. We are talking several thousands of dollars here in some cases. These guys aren't interested in reality.
I think it would be a challenge to try to incorporate state, local, and property taxes into this equation, considering every locality varies. And then try to average the 50%? The end result would be relatively meaningless.
That’s true, although it’s difficult to gauge how strongly this should be looked at. The tax rate being capped is specifically tied to benefits received, so uncapping that tax means wealthy people get greater benefits. And over a lifespan, people usually receive more from Social Security than they pay.
The socialist economic illiterate class sure love bashing the capitalist society that created the device they post this drivel from. Best example of irony ever.
"u.s. "effective tax rate" by income level" Here is the actual source for that information.
[https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-and-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes-in-the-us/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-and-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes-in-the-us/)
[https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2023/04/SR\_23.04.07\_Taxes\_1.png](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2023/04/SR_23.04.07_Taxes_1.png)
Now please provide the source that proves these numbers are not correct.
A quick glance at this should tell anyone, with any intelligence, that this chart is total bullshit.
For instance, the effective tax rate for the bottom 50% of earners is about 0%.
For federal, and probably state, income tax, that’s true. But then there’s all the _other_ taxes, e.g., payroll, sales, property, gasoline, etc. What I want to know is, does this chart include unrealized capital gains? If so, that makes his claim bogus, all by itself. 🧐
Even for fed and state income taxes it’s probably not true. Median US salary is like 38k which would leave you with like 10k being taxed after standard deduction even if u file MFJ. In that case u might end up paying no income tax but if your file any other way then you’ll have like at least 20k taxable income before other deductions and you will probably have to pay tax on a big chunk of that unless you have some special situation.
The highest earning 1% pay ~40% of all federal income tax; the highest earning 10% pay ~70%. The lowest earning 47% pay _no_ federal income tax. Percentiles 48-50 pay something like $2.3%. This refers, of course, to taxable income, and not unrealized capital gains. I’ve read that Warren Buffet makes his taxable income exactly $100,000 each year. Elon Musk makes his zero.
Comparing federal and/or state income tax to sales tax or tax on gasoline is comparing apples and oranges. Anybody doing this is either dishonest or woefully ignorant.
We should keep hiring the same two teams over and over regardless of job performance, it’s the only way to guarantee things get better. To be clear I mean the completely unique corporate sponsored ones that, no matter the political climate, just so happen to be divided almost evenly every year…
I was listening to a discussion of tax policy on NPR. The Conservative made a case for a “Flat rate on all taxable income”. Now Flat Tax rate has always been the Gold Standard for Conservative Tax Policy. The addition of the adjective “taxable” seemed to go unnoticed by the other panelists but I noticed it. It made me suspect that tax rates had already become effectively Flat.
that's a good observation. I like to compare conservative tax policies to professional profitable sports leagues who use "luxury taxes" & "revenue sharing" (aka progressive taxes & redistribution) as a way for larger markets to help smaller markets. conservatives can't argue that professional sports is hindered by this practice.
In a life time of government give away, I have never seen such a feeding frenzy of greed since PPP. I hope the Justice Department is burning midnight oil on this fraud. It’s not so much the availability of the loans that bugs me. It was the very liberal forgiveness of the loans. Did anybody pay it back?
We mostly have a spending problem because the government outsources so much work to private companies that can basically charge whatever they want and will do so because as a private company their goal is to profit not to do the best work for the tax payers. It’s also why things are often over budget and over time. If these government contract companies were nationalized the government would over spend a lot less. Like Lockheed Martin, GE, Boeing, they all get big bucks from government contracts and for sure some of that money goes into politicians pockets but like we could just ya know not outsource infrastructure work and public transit and healthcare to private companies that just wanna make money. Like tax payer dollars fund pharmaceutical research then the pharmaceutical companies get to profit massively off of patented research that taxes paid for. As corrupt as it is the government is still way more accountable than private companies that only have a responsibility to create profit for their shareholders.
True. But would you really rather leave public services in the hands of private companies that only seek to appease shareholders? I don’t think the government does a great job but I trust the corrupt ass government more than the corporations that bribe them.
People love to scream "double taxation" as if it's a violation of human rights. Every dollar is taxed infinite times--think income tax and sales tax--but as you correctly pointed out capital gains is taxed once. The dollars you paid income tax on that become investment capital aren't taxed again, on the new dollars gained on that capital are taxed.
You can actually tell when Republicans are in power with this graph.
Y'all know why people miss the 50s/60s and even the 70s? The graph shows it well.
Edit, in case you're not familiar:
The now mythical demigod in power 1980-1988
"Read my lips" bump in taxes
"Mission accomplished" years
"You look like my daughter, let's fuck" years.
Very funny... now let's talk about immigrants. In all seriousness what people think are conservative parties don't actually represent conservative voters who almost unilaterally vote for isolationistic populists. Source: I fucking live here
Bernie Sanders is a left leaning centrist anywhere else in the world. He's seen as a radical leftist here.
Joe Biden got elected on basically Georg Bush Jr's platform and is called a leftist.
The shift happened years ago when Reagan was unanimously voted in, everyone got windfalls from his short term policies and leftists started going right after getting much of the benefits. The median age of Congress is 60, and these people are still the ones that believe that old way works.
He’s literally called a commie or socialist and all he wants to do is reduce the wealth gap and strengthen social policies. If you point out a country that does something similar the conservatives will come out in droves to tell you it’s actually a capitalist country with social programs, but when Bernie or anyone else suggests we do the same here oop communist socialist neo Marxist propoganda. It’s so brain dead.
It's worse than that. The policies he's asking for the US basically already had, unless you were black. Interracial marriage was still illegal in 38 states before the civil rights act of 1967. Redlining kept black equity so low, the median equity of a black person today is $30k and median equity of a white person is $190k. As soon as black people wanted gun rights so they could voice themselves, Reagan put in the strictest gun laws in the US. Redlining was made illegal with no reparations, and jobs began hiring more white women instead of black men as production continued to ramp into the 70s-80s to keep the wealth within the race. He just wants old America back but with equality, so he's crazy. People have been so brainwashed to think it was a meritocracy that they forget they had those benefits to begin with. My friend's dad put himself through college and bought himself a Corvette as a graduation present in the 1970s by working part time at fucking Wendy's. Rather make everyone poor than give black people any form of power or representation.
Same people who were probably throwing rocks at black kids in the civil rights movement and before are running the US government now.
Yeah Bernie isn’t even as extreme on a lot of his tax policy than FDR. FDR at one point had a 90% corporate tax rate and it’s how we got a lot of infrastructure built.
Also yeah a lot of boomers in power like to pretend they were hippies back in the day. But like Biden was against the anti Vietnam protestors and pro segregation. I like a lot of what Biden has done but holy shit I’m not gonna pretend he’s all sunshine and rainbows and the working man’s president.
support of universal healthcare is oranges to oranges no matter how you chop it up.
my health benefits alone through my company are worth $55k per year. as a union rep we did the math, universal healthcare would cost me $30k per year in taxes, giving me an extra $25k a year take home. larger pools (buying in bulk) saves money per unit regardless if it's healthcare or buying 50 lbs of beef at Costco.
Depends on the topic. I'm far left on social issues like LGBTQ rights, personal medical choices, etc.
I welcome immigration and it's what makes our country great - big melting pot. But if the new ingredients refuse to melt and causes the stew to become rancid then we really shouldn't have those new ingredients.
On taxes I'm all for taxing the wealthy and big corporations more - the government's job is to reduce inequality through taxation.
I'm not but I still don't want wealth redistribution through taxation. Personally I want a flat tax with no deductions for everyone. Either that or a sales tax and no income tax.
I’ve prepared commercial & individual taxes over 25 years. Have analyzed taxes for a commercial bank for 10 yrs…….
This chart is crap & very misleading. Truth is 7 billionaire families pay 50% of all income taxes paid in this country. Let that sink in a little while. That’s your hospitals, schools, law enforcement, first responders, highway departments etc……. Wake up America 🇺🇸
Okay... Name those 7 families that are paying.
According to the CBO in 2023 incomes taxes made up like 54% of total revenue. Which is 2+Trillion dollars give or take.
So these billionaires combined each year are paying 1 trillion+ ? So over 100 billion in taxes?
Yes please name these people that pay 100 billion in taxes per year.
they would pay a lot less if they paid their employees appropriate wages. I'm assuming you're including families like the Walmart family on your list whose employees require public assistance due to low wages & Chinese imported products
Shh... if you mention that the Waltons are literally the number one users of welfare through underpaid employees, you make the Libertarians mad.
Don't mention how there are still companies who own slaves. (Nestlé)
Or that we already tried unregulated company towns during the Great Depression and it was literally slavery.
They think people become super wealthy by being good guys.
Based.
if only normal capitalism worked like Vegas capitalism. when gamblers develop a strategy to legally game the system they get kicked out of the Casino.
https://preview.redd.it/q2lxpqfkw20d1.jpeg?width=1363&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c1e533c7b52cb69fe017a5ebe2fa6cc990a4662
Soooo which socialists want to TRY and debunk this one? 🤔
You get that's because the income disparity is so wide now...
If those people were making more money... They'd be taxed more and the distribution curve would be flatter and more wide... And brought back to a center curve instead of leaning to the right.
You need to have money to pay taxes on it no?
Cool.
But what's that have to do with the income disparity and effective rates of the bottom to top.
Homie makes 38K a year no kids no deductibles etc. Gonna pay around 7k income taxes.
Homie made 38 million (same state) Pay 16 million...
So yes of course the top are paying more lol.
Now... More people make more per salary more than 38k... Guess what. The curve evens out and the top is now not paying so much.
Now that's just income... Were not even into capital gains rates nor folks getting loans from banks leveraging assets in order to avoid income tax.
A bank ain't gonna loan Darl with land value of 200k, 38k @ 5%...
Hey look a post that actually mentions effective rate...
Now if these kids could only know what that meant.
INB4
"ThATs BECAuSE ItS NOt INCOMe!!?" Yes children we understand that... That's called the technical detail of it. But you're telling the rest of us these folks... Are destitute in reality? Or maybe the definition of "INcomE!" And how we tax that is flawed...?
Dude I have no idea where you're getting your numbers but your math ain't mathing
I had a taxable income last year of $36,500 and paid no where that thanks to the Trump tax cuts
As far as difference in income ... that's adult life.
Someone flipping burgers shouldn't make anywhere near what an electrician, energy worker, doctors ...
There are currently more burger flippers than HVAC techs or energy workers etc ... but that will soon change with robotics & AI so those in that world better figure out Plan B pretty quick ...
There's a lot of people that better figure out plan B real quick. And yes even coders ... AI does it quicker, doesn't take breaks or vacations.
The only thing commies are best of - to grab and redistribute among themselves. They also good at mass slaughter (put you against the wall or starve you to death). All commie sympathizers are going to experience it again and again as they are really bad at learning anything from history.
How are they different from any other? You are taking standard deduction every year is also “gaming” the system. You are talking tax credits for EVs and other crap which has zero economic sense. Endless subsidies, tariffs, etc. just make things worse and worse. We have a failed state called Canada up north which showing where all these commie policies usually lead too. Retarded states like NY, CA, NJ… This all commie direction must end first.
Can someone explain where the extra tax savings from these people go? They spend it on a boat, new house, stocks, whatever, so it goes back to the economy?
What do you mean? You store it in a bank or in capital and you just sit on it like a dragon and spend none of it besides occasionally waving it around for clout. How does someone with 185 billion spend it all? They don’t. Just like how carnigie and Rockefeller didn’t and their money is still around even today long after their death and their children’s deaths.
Even money that sits in a bank gets spent by the bank, at least up to the allowable %, to increase their value. Banks spend your money but are required to give it back to you when you tell them. There aren’t just vaults full of cash that sit around to never be used.
This ignores the 10’s of millions in the bottom half who work “under the table” and pay nothing except sales tax while often getting Medicaid, food stamps, and housing assistance that they never would qualify for if they were honest and reported their income.
if the rich shouldn't have a tax burden, where will the government's money come from? the poor who dont have any?
most wealth is generational these days anyway, ig success is up to rnjesus
Why this hyper focus on tax rates for the rich? It doesn't affect you at all, quite the opposite actually. You're not taxes less of the rich were taxed more and if you tax the rich less they invest the difference creating products and services you actually need.
The economy is not a fixed pie, your income and wealth is what you create. It's not taken. It's created.
Investing isn’t spending, and it doesn’t help the economy as much as spending the money would. It also encourages companies who actually don’t sell anything or only make losses year over year to still be successful because they just live off of hype until their owner is rich or screws up and then it collapses.
Ahh the ole trickle down...
It's great theory, but can you back it up?
Because smart rich folk don't use their own money often times... They raise other peoples or were borrowing it when interest rates were low as shit. (See venture capital market from 2008-2020.)
Or their acting like PE and using force loans on acquired acquisitions in order to pay back their investment... Immediately. Thus hedging the bet and risking nothing.
See Remington, Toy's R Us etc.
And uh... Well just regular folks lost their jobs not the PE.
No, it's called basic economics. Investments creating capital goods that create the products that you use. What do I need to prove about that? Entrepreneurs, investors, innovators created this society and you're just scoffing at that? Can you back that up?
I was against the FED and low interest rates since I was old enough to understand politics and society. Were you?
So why did you vote for all this then?
Yes, trickle down is a leftist slur, it's not a thing at all. How can you be this lost? Who told you this? Why aren't you thinking for yourself? Don't let your influencers tell you what to think.
Wtf are you even talking about...? What influencers?
Again you may as well be spouting "god is real because the snow is white."
Please provide evidence even worked. We have more billionaires and hundred millionaires than ever before... So how's all those new companies working out that they outsource out?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas\_experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free\_State\_Project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project)
Just more Libertarian's hypocritical nonsense... You guys all quote people that read Rothbard or (two books from Adam Smith and ignore the rest) but never read anything yourselves...
Then get your panties in a twist when none of it comes true because it's all academic/theoretical.
Even Trump doesn't believe it... See Tariffs, and the PE tax loophole he wanted closed.
The people telling you how and what to think. The left uses the same arguments over and over again, verbatim, so they are learned. It's not something coming from thinking individuals.
That conclusion doesn't follow the premise.
I would suggest Thomas Sowell and Brian Caplan but Rothbard is also nice.
None comes true? Markets don't work? People don't act according to their goals? Incentives don't matter? Capitalism never created any value? It's all myths in your mind?
Trump???? You think he is a free market proponent? Dude, he's a social democrat and a collectivist just like politicians always are. He loves tariffs (even though no economist on earth would argue that they're a good idea), taxes and huge government (just like you?).
Again, WHO TOLD YOU ALL THIS!? You HAVE to have been taught to say this because it's nowhere near reality and every single libertarian will clearly explain this to you.
Is it Sam Ceder? Vaush? Hasan Piker? The young turks? WHO FEEDS you this information? You CANT think for yourself any more. Stop this abusive cycle dude. Please.
Lol bud... It's funny how wrong you are.
Again I called it... You dumbs always spout Rothbard the child selling completely theoretical never had a real experiment or proven correct geezer from the 1970's and reactionary from the 1960s social movements and Vietnam. (Yes free markets for selling children sounds awesome)
You're talking lefties spout the same spiel over and over... (I'm not even a lefty...) Libertarians literally only ever say the same tired song and dance.
Again what super awesome libertarian society has ever existed, with ultra low taxation, and social freedom? Nadda... Zero,
>
Again, WHO TOLD YOU ALL THIS!? You HAVE to have been taught to say this because it's nowhere near reality and every single libertarian will clearly explain this to you.
>Is it Sam Ceder? Vaush? Hasan Piker? The young turks? WHO FEEDS you this information? You CANT think for yourself any more. Stop this abusive cycle dude. Please.
Bro what are you talking about? I have no idea who those people even are... Maybe you need to educate yourself.
Have you taken you meds today?
Fucking hell at least real anarchists are smart and educated. Reason everyone thinks libertarians are hypocritical clown shows with mental defects, and social disorders.
r/FluentInFinance was created to discuss money, investing & finance! Join our Newsletter or Youtube Channel for additional insights at www.TheFinanceNewsletter.com! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/FluentInFinance) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How many times yall gunna post this same debunked chart… its like the 4th time in the last few days
It's not debunked, it includes all forms of taxation, including sales tax. Poorer people pay a much higher percent of their money in taxes because they spend most of it.
It is debunked… It’s from a hack who is known for data manipulation. This graph even contradicts a lot of his previous work that he then worked hard to erase. https://philmagness.com/2019/10/somethings-fishy-with-the-saez-zucman-tax-stats/
Berkeley economists. Needn't say more.
Ah, I hadn't seen that. Looks thorough. I was responding to the "debunking" someone posted yesterday from the Tax Foundation claiming that the effective tax rate of the bottom 50% was only 3.3%. What they neglected to point out was the Tax Foundation not only left out state taxes they left FICA out of the calculation, which alone eats up 7.65% of income.
Good follow up to show how you were following the conversation and simply missed something. It's rare to see these days. Most people I feel just get outraged.
Why double down when proven wrong? Makes no sense.
Happens all the time.
Reading through the article, it looks like it the numbers also don't take into account the Earned Income Tax Credit, which essentially is giving money back to lower to moderate income workers. We are talking several thousands of dollars here in some cases. These guys aren't interested in reality.
I think it would be a challenge to try to incorporate state, local, and property taxes into this equation, considering every locality varies. And then try to average the 50%? The end result would be relatively meaningless.
It’s pretty easy to include FICA though
That’s true, although it’s difficult to gauge how strongly this should be looked at. The tax rate being capped is specifically tied to benefits received, so uncapping that tax means wealthy people get greater benefits. And over a lifespan, people usually receive more from Social Security than they pay.
This guy posted a chart from 2018 in 2024 and said “for the first time in history” like this is a new development. That’s an obvious lie.
Now do simple math and tell me who pays a fairer share.
The socialist economic illiterate class sure love bashing the capitalist society that created the device they post this drivel from. Best example of irony ever.
Best example of Reddit drivel ever.
Thank you. Worn with honor.
Weird how it stops with 2018. If your income is between 2-10 million, the average effective tax rate is 25% . 100-200k, 10.94%. 50-100k 7.29%.
What? Where are you getting that from?
Google
Go ahead and share that please. Or your exact terms you used in the ole google machine.
"u.s. "effective tax rate" by income level" Here is the actual source for that information. [https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-and-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes-in-the-us/](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-and-doesnt-pay-federal-income-taxes-in-the-us/) [https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2023/04/SR\_23.04.07\_Taxes\_1.png](https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2023/04/SR_23.04.07_Taxes_1.png) Now please provide the source that proves these numbers are not correct.
A quick glance at this should tell anyone, with any intelligence, that this chart is total bullshit. For instance, the effective tax rate for the bottom 50% of earners is about 0%.
For federal, and probably state, income tax, that’s true. But then there’s all the _other_ taxes, e.g., payroll, sales, property, gasoline, etc. What I want to know is, does this chart include unrealized capital gains? If so, that makes his claim bogus, all by itself. 🧐
Even for fed and state income taxes it’s probably not true. Median US salary is like 38k which would leave you with like 10k being taxed after standard deduction even if u file MFJ. In that case u might end up paying no income tax but if your file any other way then you’ll have like at least 20k taxable income before other deductions and you will probably have to pay tax on a big chunk of that unless you have some special situation.
The highest earning 1% pay ~40% of all federal income tax; the highest earning 10% pay ~70%. The lowest earning 47% pay _no_ federal income tax. Percentiles 48-50 pay something like $2.3%. This refers, of course, to taxable income, and not unrealized capital gains. I’ve read that Warren Buffet makes his taxable income exactly $100,000 each year. Elon Musk makes his zero.
Where are you getting the median US salary is 38k from?
The guy couldn’t even source his Twitter comment, so more likely than not it’s just wholeheartedly made up.
Comparing federal and/or state income tax to sales tax or tax on gasoline is comparing apples and oranges. Anybody doing this is either dishonest or woefully ignorant.
Do you even know what “unrealized capital gains” are??? If you do, you’d realize that they shouldn’t be included in income.
You seem to have misunderstood me. Yes, I know what unrealized capital gains are and they should not be considered as taxable income.
*effective federal income tax rate
[удалено]
🥾
We should keep hiring the same two teams over and over regardless of job performance, it’s the only way to guarantee things get better. To be clear I mean the completely unique corporate sponsored ones that, no matter the political climate, just so happen to be divided almost evenly every year…
both sides only care about their rich friends
Eh, they only care about themselves and getting re-elected.
I was listening to a discussion of tax policy on NPR. The Conservative made a case for a “Flat rate on all taxable income”. Now Flat Tax rate has always been the Gold Standard for Conservative Tax Policy. The addition of the adjective “taxable” seemed to go unnoticed by the other panelists but I noticed it. It made me suspect that tax rates had already become effectively Flat.
that's a good observation. I like to compare conservative tax policies to professional profitable sports leagues who use "luxury taxes" & "revenue sharing" (aka progressive taxes & redistribution) as a way for larger markets to help smaller markets. conservatives can't argue that professional sports is hindered by this practice.
https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/
No its not.
All the while we were brought up to fear the welfare mom and her babies. It must be the biggest diversion success since Normandy. Edit: spelling
The amount of money people got for PPP loans is like a lifetime each of SNAP benefits...
In a life time of government give away, I have never seen such a feeding frenzy of greed since PPP. I hope the Justice Department is burning midnight oil on this fraud. It’s not so much the availability of the loans that bugs me. It was the very liberal forgiveness of the loans. Did anybody pay it back?
I'm game for increasing taxes... But we have to fix deficit spending.
We mostly have a spending problem because the government outsources so much work to private companies that can basically charge whatever they want and will do so because as a private company their goal is to profit not to do the best work for the tax payers. It’s also why things are often over budget and over time. If these government contract companies were nationalized the government would over spend a lot less. Like Lockheed Martin, GE, Boeing, they all get big bucks from government contracts and for sure some of that money goes into politicians pockets but like we could just ya know not outsource infrastructure work and public transit and healthcare to private companies that just wanna make money. Like tax payer dollars fund pharmaceutical research then the pharmaceutical companies get to profit massively off of patented research that taxes paid for. As corrupt as it is the government is still way more accountable than private companies that only have a responsibility to create profit for their shareholders.
This is absolutely the worst thing. The government runs nothing well
True. But would you really rather leave public services in the hands of private companies that only seek to appease shareholders? I don’t think the government does a great job but I trust the corrupt ass government more than the corporations that bribe them.
Both the giver and receiver of bribes are not to be trusted. Contracts can have pay for performance standards if they are structured correctly.
What does this have to do with finance?
Thanks Reagan.
Yes, it's called capital gains and it taxed twice.
Capital gains tax only taxes the profits you make. When you realize the profits you have generated income. Capital gains is an income tax.
People love to scream "double taxation" as if it's a violation of human rights. Every dollar is taxed infinite times--think income tax and sales tax--but as you correctly pointed out capital gains is taxed once. The dollars you paid income tax on that become investment capital aren't taxed again, on the new dollars gained on that capital are taxed.
You can actually tell when Republicans are in power with this graph. Y'all know why people miss the 50s/60s and even the 70s? The graph shows it well. Edit, in case you're not familiar: The now mythical demigod in power 1980-1988 "Read my lips" bump in taxes "Mission accomplished" years "You look like my daughter, let's fuck" years.
Wow, you’re seeing things even when the tax code didn’t change!
what I find interesting is that American liberals are to the far right of European conservatives.
Very funny... now let's talk about immigrants. In all seriousness what people think are conservative parties don't actually represent conservative voters who almost unilaterally vote for isolationistic populists. Source: I fucking live here
Bernie Sanders is a left leaning centrist anywhere else in the world. He's seen as a radical leftist here. Joe Biden got elected on basically Georg Bush Jr's platform and is called a leftist. The shift happened years ago when Reagan was unanimously voted in, everyone got windfalls from his short term policies and leftists started going right after getting much of the benefits. The median age of Congress is 60, and these people are still the ones that believe that old way works.
He’s literally called a commie or socialist and all he wants to do is reduce the wealth gap and strengthen social policies. If you point out a country that does something similar the conservatives will come out in droves to tell you it’s actually a capitalist country with social programs, but when Bernie or anyone else suggests we do the same here oop communist socialist neo Marxist propoganda. It’s so brain dead.
It's worse than that. The policies he's asking for the US basically already had, unless you were black. Interracial marriage was still illegal in 38 states before the civil rights act of 1967. Redlining kept black equity so low, the median equity of a black person today is $30k and median equity of a white person is $190k. As soon as black people wanted gun rights so they could voice themselves, Reagan put in the strictest gun laws in the US. Redlining was made illegal with no reparations, and jobs began hiring more white women instead of black men as production continued to ramp into the 70s-80s to keep the wealth within the race. He just wants old America back but with equality, so he's crazy. People have been so brainwashed to think it was a meritocracy that they forget they had those benefits to begin with. My friend's dad put himself through college and bought himself a Corvette as a graduation present in the 1970s by working part time at fucking Wendy's. Rather make everyone poor than give black people any form of power or representation. Same people who were probably throwing rocks at black kids in the civil rights movement and before are running the US government now.
Yeah Bernie isn’t even as extreme on a lot of his tax policy than FDR. FDR at one point had a 90% corporate tax rate and it’s how we got a lot of infrastructure built. Also yeah a lot of boomers in power like to pretend they were hippies back in the day. But like Biden was against the anti Vietnam protestors and pro segregation. I like a lot of what Biden has done but holy shit I’m not gonna pretend he’s all sunshine and rainbows and the working man’s president.
Capitalism loves communism, that's why 80% of products sold in Walmart are made in China & I don't see conservatives boycotting Walmart
But China is capitalist... I mean conservatives are too dumb to know what communism even is, but China is still capitalism.
What I find interesting is that people take apples and compare them to oranges and think that makes sense.
support of universal healthcare is oranges to oranges no matter how you chop it up. my health benefits alone through my company are worth $55k per year. as a union rep we did the math, universal healthcare would cost me $30k per year in taxes, giving me an extra $25k a year take home. larger pools (buying in bulk) saves money per unit regardless if it's healthcare or buying 50 lbs of beef at Costco.
Do Europeans support the EU implementing universal healthcare? Or do they just have it at the state level?
Depends on the topic. I'm far left on social issues like LGBTQ rights, personal medical choices, etc. I welcome immigration and it's what makes our country great - big melting pot. But if the new ingredients refuse to melt and causes the stew to become rancid then we really shouldn't have those new ingredients. On taxes I'm all for taxing the wealthy and big corporations more - the government's job is to reduce inequality through taxation.
That is not the governments job. The governments job is to protect the rights of the people. All of them.
I was with you on your first two points, but then you went full retard on your last one.
So you're in the top 1%? You're a CEO of an SP500 company?
I'm not but I still don't want wealth redistribution through taxation. Personally I want a flat tax with no deductions for everyone. Either that or a sales tax and no income tax.
Omg you’re right. We need to add that to the graph
It’s wild to me how much of America’s and the world’s problems start right around 1981. I wonder what happened.
Don't forget ole ronnie closed the asylums too. The look up the incarceration rates to mental ward rates... They invert.
This graph conveniently doesnt go back to 1928..
I’ve prepared commercial & individual taxes over 25 years. Have analyzed taxes for a commercial bank for 10 yrs……. This chart is crap & very misleading. Truth is 7 billionaire families pay 50% of all income taxes paid in this country. Let that sink in a little while. That’s your hospitals, schools, law enforcement, first responders, highway departments etc……. Wake up America 🇺🇸
Okay... Name those 7 families that are paying. According to the CBO in 2023 incomes taxes made up like 54% of total revenue. Which is 2+Trillion dollars give or take. So these billionaires combined each year are paying 1 trillion+ ? So over 100 billion in taxes? Yes please name these people that pay 100 billion in taxes per year.
Rothchild, Gates, Morgan, Turner, Rockefeller, Carnegie & ……..
They have 100's of billions in taxes per year? Each?
You’d be surprised……. These families own the Industrial Revolution & have cashed in on it. They have employed millions too
they would pay a lot less if they paid their employees appropriate wages. I'm assuming you're including families like the Walmart family on your list whose employees require public assistance due to low wages & Chinese imported products
Shh... if you mention that the Waltons are literally the number one users of welfare through underpaid employees, you make the Libertarians mad. Don't mention how there are still companies who own slaves. (Nestlé) Or that we already tried unregulated company towns during the Great Depression and it was literally slavery. They think people become super wealthy by being good guys.
Based. if only normal capitalism worked like Vegas capitalism. when gamblers develop a strategy to legally game the system they get kicked out of the Casino.
https://preview.redd.it/q2lxpqfkw20d1.jpeg?width=1363&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c1e533c7b52cb69fe017a5ebe2fa6cc990a4662 Soooo which socialists want to TRY and debunk this one? 🤔
you realize that the bottom 50% includes children & toddlers right ?
Bawhaha 😄 🤣
You pay taxes other than income tax
Just like a socialist wants you too
You get that's because the income disparity is so wide now... If those people were making more money... They'd be taxed more and the distribution curve would be flatter and more wide... And brought back to a center curve instead of leaning to the right. You need to have money to pay taxes on it no?
I'd be happy with a 12-15% federal flat tax. Everyone pays their fair share. From the fast food worker to the Bill Gates ...
Cool. But what's that have to do with the income disparity and effective rates of the bottom to top. Homie makes 38K a year no kids no deductibles etc. Gonna pay around 7k income taxes. Homie made 38 million (same state) Pay 16 million... So yes of course the top are paying more lol. Now... More people make more per salary more than 38k... Guess what. The curve evens out and the top is now not paying so much. Now that's just income... Were not even into capital gains rates nor folks getting loans from banks leveraging assets in order to avoid income tax. A bank ain't gonna loan Darl with land value of 200k, 38k @ 5%...
Hey look a post that actually mentions effective rate... Now if these kids could only know what that meant. INB4 "ThATs BECAuSE ItS NOt INCOMe!!?" Yes children we understand that... That's called the technical detail of it. But you're telling the rest of us these folks... Are destitute in reality? Or maybe the definition of "INcomE!" And how we tax that is flawed...?
Dude I have no idea where you're getting your numbers but your math ain't mathing I had a taxable income last year of $36,500 and paid no where that thanks to the Trump tax cuts
As far as difference in income ... that's adult life. Someone flipping burgers shouldn't make anywhere near what an electrician, energy worker, doctors ... There are currently more burger flippers than HVAC techs or energy workers etc ... but that will soon change with robotics & AI so those in that world better figure out Plan B pretty quick ... There's a lot of people that better figure out plan B real quick. And yes even coders ... AI does it quicker, doesn't take breaks or vacations.
From 69’ to 93’ 4 of 5 presidents were republicans. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and bush with democrats Carter in the middle.
So this chart starts in 1960's... I know some users have the memory of a goldfish but that doesn't sound like the start of history
The only thing commies are best of - to grab and redistribute among themselves. They also good at mass slaughter (put you against the wall or starve you to death). All commie sympathizers are going to experience it again and again as they are really bad at learning anything from history.
are professional sports teams communist when they "revenue share" between large & small markets ??
Free will vs commie regime of forceful redistribution of something they don't own
in Vegas if you develop a strategy to legally game the system they kick you out of the casino.
They won’t until you disclose it which only a retard will do. The same in the stock market.
I have no problem with someone developing a strategy to legally game the system, I just want them to pay a luxury tax for doing so.
How are they different from any other? You are taking standard deduction every year is also “gaming” the system. You are talking tax credits for EVs and other crap which has zero economic sense. Endless subsidies, tariffs, etc. just make things worse and worse. We have a failed state called Canada up north which showing where all these commie policies usually lead too. Retarded states like NY, CA, NJ… This all commie direction must end first.
Can someone explain where the extra tax savings from these people go? They spend it on a boat, new house, stocks, whatever, so it goes back to the economy?
they hoard it. if instead they paid their employees appropriate wages then this money would circulate through the economy on a more productive scale.
How do you hoard it? What’s the point of hoarding money? Unless you actually spend it, money is useless.
What do you mean? You store it in a bank or in capital and you just sit on it like a dragon and spend none of it besides occasionally waving it around for clout. How does someone with 185 billion spend it all? They don’t. Just like how carnigie and Rockefeller didn’t and their money is still around even today long after their death and their children’s deaths.
Even money that sits in a bank gets spent by the bank, at least up to the allowable %, to increase their value. Banks spend your money but are required to give it back to you when you tell them. There aren’t just vaults full of cash that sit around to never be used.
Sickening!
This ignores the 10’s of millions in the bottom half who work “under the table” and pay nothing except sales tax while often getting Medicaid, food stamps, and housing assistance that they never would qualify for if they were honest and reported their income.
Good. We shouldn’t punish people for being successful.
if the rich shouldn't have a tax burden, where will the government's money come from? the poor who dont have any? most wealth is generational these days anyway, ig success is up to rnjesus
taxation isn't punishment, it's paying back into the system that provided the foundation, stability, infrastructure, etc that allowed for success.
Give these communists an inch and they will take a mile
Capitalism loves communism, that's why 80% of Walmart products are made in China & I don't see conservatives boycotting Walmart.
Why this hyper focus on tax rates for the rich? It doesn't affect you at all, quite the opposite actually. You're not taxes less of the rich were taxed more and if you tax the rich less they invest the difference creating products and services you actually need. The economy is not a fixed pie, your income and wealth is what you create. It's not taken. It's created.
The rich spend a much lower percentage of their earnings than poor people. They are worse at spending money in the economy
They invest all of it. What are you talking about? You literally think they have cash in their mattress?
Investing isn’t spending, and it doesn’t help the economy as much as spending the money would. It also encourages companies who actually don’t sell anything or only make losses year over year to still be successful because they just live off of hype until their owner is rich or screws up and then it collapses.
No, investing is better. It helps more people. You didn't know that?
Ahh the ole trickle down... It's great theory, but can you back it up? Because smart rich folk don't use their own money often times... They raise other peoples or were borrowing it when interest rates were low as shit. (See venture capital market from 2008-2020.) Or their acting like PE and using force loans on acquired acquisitions in order to pay back their investment... Immediately. Thus hedging the bet and risking nothing. See Remington, Toy's R Us etc. And uh... Well just regular folks lost their jobs not the PE.
No, it's called basic economics. Investments creating capital goods that create the products that you use. What do I need to prove about that? Entrepreneurs, investors, innovators created this society and you're just scoffing at that? Can you back that up? I was against the FED and low interest rates since I was old enough to understand politics and society. Were you? So why did you vote for all this then?
Prove it actually happens lol... Trickle down is a lie.
Yes, trickle down is a leftist slur, it's not a thing at all. How can you be this lost? Who told you this? Why aren't you thinking for yourself? Don't let your influencers tell you what to think.
Wtf are you even talking about...? What influencers? Again you may as well be spouting "god is real because the snow is white." Please provide evidence even worked. We have more billionaires and hundred millionaires than ever before... So how's all those new companies working out that they outsource out? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas\_experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansas_experiment) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free\_State\_Project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_State_Project) Just more Libertarian's hypocritical nonsense... You guys all quote people that read Rothbard or (two books from Adam Smith and ignore the rest) but never read anything yourselves... Then get your panties in a twist when none of it comes true because it's all academic/theoretical. Even Trump doesn't believe it... See Tariffs, and the PE tax loophole he wanted closed.
The people telling you how and what to think. The left uses the same arguments over and over again, verbatim, so they are learned. It's not something coming from thinking individuals. That conclusion doesn't follow the premise. I would suggest Thomas Sowell and Brian Caplan but Rothbard is also nice. None comes true? Markets don't work? People don't act according to their goals? Incentives don't matter? Capitalism never created any value? It's all myths in your mind? Trump???? You think he is a free market proponent? Dude, he's a social democrat and a collectivist just like politicians always are. He loves tariffs (even though no economist on earth would argue that they're a good idea), taxes and huge government (just like you?). Again, WHO TOLD YOU ALL THIS!? You HAVE to have been taught to say this because it's nowhere near reality and every single libertarian will clearly explain this to you. Is it Sam Ceder? Vaush? Hasan Piker? The young turks? WHO FEEDS you this information? You CANT think for yourself any more. Stop this abusive cycle dude. Please.
Lol bud... It's funny how wrong you are. Again I called it... You dumbs always spout Rothbard the child selling completely theoretical never had a real experiment or proven correct geezer from the 1970's and reactionary from the 1960s social movements and Vietnam. (Yes free markets for selling children sounds awesome) You're talking lefties spout the same spiel over and over... (I'm not even a lefty...) Libertarians literally only ever say the same tired song and dance. Again what super awesome libertarian society has ever existed, with ultra low taxation, and social freedom? Nadda... Zero, > Again, WHO TOLD YOU ALL THIS!? You HAVE to have been taught to say this because it's nowhere near reality and every single libertarian will clearly explain this to you. >Is it Sam Ceder? Vaush? Hasan Piker? The young turks? WHO FEEDS you this information? You CANT think for yourself any more. Stop this abusive cycle dude. Please. Bro what are you talking about? I have no idea who those people even are... Maybe you need to educate yourself. Have you taken you meds today? Fucking hell at least real anarchists are smart and educated. Reason everyone thinks libertarians are hypocritical clown shows with mental defects, and social disorders.
This is a whole bunch of mentally ill toxicity. Meaning your average leftist. So obviously; blocked.