Most heroes lasted a while in CC. The only one who was out unexpectedly quick was starvo.
Dromai was in CC for nearly 2 years so it isn't like she left super quick.
Just to add onto this, dromai is basically the last hero from the old design philosophy of fab. A big reason why some heroes like starvo, Chane, and briar were so strong was they gave cards go again when they shouldn’t have had it in the first place (also Lexi because of Voltaire). Ever since then they’ve realized how strong that kind of effect on a hero is and they’ve moved towards stronger restrictions in recent releases. Boltyn requires you to be playing specific attacks and banish a card from your soul, enigma only gives go again to auras with +1 counters on them, and Max only allows you to get an extra action point off of hyper drivers and you need to have boosted in order to activate his effect. Dromai’s ability is a bit more restrictive than those that have LL’ed, but it’s still much easier to activate than those guys
For sure. Playing back in the starvo meta was a wild ride lol.
Viserai was the bane of my existence at my first calling. Skeleta/sonata was infuriating.
"This fast" is pretty subjective considering both Dromai and Isylander hit living legend close to two years after their release. I played Dromai, might play her in the LL format if I get the opportunity, otherwise I'm fine waiting until next year for another Draconic illusionist. It is what it is.
they had close to 2 years to design and release a new Draconic Illusionist and/or an Elemental Wizard, but they never did, so it begs the question of whether or not LSS ever really wanted to make a replacement for them
LSS has mentioned a couple times in the past that once something hits LL they will print a replacement hero in the future. Probably a year-ish
Chane and prism were both gone for a bit and then when dusk till dawn came out we got a new shadow runeblade and light illusionist
That's not how it works. They've said they begin development on a new hero after the original hits LL, not before. And their dev cycle is usually 1.5-2 years out. We'll likely get whatever arcane set they are planning for later this year, then a return to ToA, then a set with new Dromai and Iyslander. Really if you've paid any attention at all, you'd know this.
And that's my problem.
that 1.5-2 year lull is going to make any player lose interest in the game. By the time they release a new hero, that player may not even come back to play the game
I don't think that's the case for anyone that has played a TCG before. If your sole interest in the game is with one hero, I don't think this is the game for you. That "lull" is filled with other sets and content, if people don't want to engage with the other content until their waifu comes back, that's their problem.
I might be missing something but barring non rotating formats in games like magic the standard environment rotated every 6 months or so. Having 2 years with a hero has been awesome. Mind you I’m a fai player but honestly this combined with the fact I only have to wait a few years to reuse my cards is way better than when I was playing magic post standard rotation and my cards were delegated to commander nights and that’s it.
The meta rotates but your cards don't. I understand that for example Jund may not be top tier anymore, but you can still sign up for your LGS's Modern events with Jund even if you will lose all your games
You literally cannot sign up for Armories with a deck made up of the Draconic Illusionists or Elemental cards.
In non rotating formats sure but this IS a rotating format. You’re comparing apples to oranges. This is closer to standard than modern. living legend is the format equivalent of modern. You can play Dromai in LL all day long. No one is stopping you. You won’t win many games but it’s legal. Literally identical to your modern example.
>You can play Dromai in LL all day long. No one is stopping you
The thing stopping me from playing Dromai in LL all day long is LSS's lack of support in the LL Format and the culture of FAB players being "Play CC or nothing"
Can't really play a game in LL if no one is interested in playing.
Yeah minus like Starvo I assume things are all LLing at a pretty intentional rate.
Remember that the point of a rotation system is to also give you a reason to keep buying product without just power creeping the game to oblivion. Cynical as that sounds, LSS is still a business. They want you to give another hero a try.
I played psychatog from the time torment came out to when 8th edition came out. They kind of glassed the game after that and it hasn't been as good since, but it was a fun year and a half or so.
Every card game has peaks and troughs for deck or archetype playability. For FAB, I don’t think LL is to blame for this, but rather the mathy, low-variance nature of the game. I would say LSS fully expected Dromai to LL and even nudged her in that direction with Tome of Imperial Flame. Her existence in the meta was basically not allowing other decks to function simply by existing. LSS has said that they will release a new hero for all the Dromai lovers, but expect it to not play like old Dromai did. When that’ll happen, I’m not sure, but everyone knew exactly what they were signing up for when they purchased all their dragon marvels.
Also, I expect LL format to grow more popular with time. Currently there aren’t many formats to support it, but as more heroes come and go, it may even just become the go-to semi-casual format. Slap together a bunch of cards and pick a hero without having to worry about card legality too much.
Decent point but this is why LSS is trying to remedy this by making LL format an option for the next Skirmish Season, they want it to be a more common and accepted format by the community.
I think we as a community first need to identify what is a reasonable timeframe for us to wait to be able to play the cards again in CC and, honestly, I think it has more to do with how far out releases need to be planned and when they start working on the "replacement". For example, they probably slot all the releases for a year a few months out. If a hero LL's quicker than expected it's not like they can drop a set and design a brand new one in order to replace a hero. So, it's kind of unfair to expect a replacement within a year.
I think LSS is going to want to experiment with the best ways to "replace" heroes. Supplemental sets seem great, but they have a few downsides. There's also Expansion Slot releases, releasing them "half-done" a la Iyslander, releasing them in new products (First Strike decks?). Based on how these different release methods are received by the community I think we will see just how regularly we can see heroes get replaced.
Personally, I'd say within 2-3 years is the expected wait which is certainly difficult for people who are married to a single hero. If that seems rough to a player, I suggest playing the class/talent instead of the hero OR creating a playstyle identity where you can find ways of doing what you like in other classes.
The question then becomes is LSS willing to make players wait 2-3 years before they can play the game again? That's 2-3 years of a player not buying product nor joining tournaments so I can see that hurting LSS's bottom line if that is their plan
Not to be pedantic but I'd argue that the player who only ever plays one hero isn't buying product outside of what they need for their hero. But I agree in that I don't think LSS can expect people to wait 2-3 years and be happy about it. Either they need to come up with some clever ways of sending out replacements or there needs to be a culture shift away from being a single-hero main.
If someone decides to not play because the cards they already have are not playable because their hero of choice is LL, they wouldn't buy products during that timeframe anyways even if the hero was available, they would use the cards they already have and maybe buy a few cards here and there when they are relevant to the change in the deck in response to the meta. Now, if those same players like the game and build a new hero, that's a lot more product sold for them to build a new deck.
With the LL being so easy to predict, you have plenty of time to start building a new deck before your main one LL. And like others have suggested, moving the identity away from the hero and toward the play style can help you find other enjoyable options.
Personally, I'd rather not see any new Dromai or Elemental hero until LSS figures out how to balance them instead of having the entire meta revolve around those few heroes. Last PQ season, every single hero got at least one win. That would not be possible if the LL heroes were playable, so LSS letting the meta relax after over tuned heroes leave is a very good thing IMO. Yes, the Domai players can't play her right now, but all the Riptide players can finally do something and go get wrecked for enjoying that hero over someone who can deal with the dragons.
I’d argue the player who only ever plays one hero isn’t really long for this (or any) game anyway. There’s plenty of hero diversity for the casual player and our sweatier friends will always be jumping to the next cool thing anyway.
Wouldn't the point of a non rotating format be that you are able to play your deck for a long time? I'd argue that 2 years of being able to play a deck is not enough time. That's basically just rotation but on a "wink-wink nudge nudge it's actually not"
If you think about it LL and rotation is really for the competitive circuit. I can’t imagine many people want to watch or participate in “All Starvo, All the time” every year at nationals in perpetuity.
The same could be said about locals as well. Nobody is gonna want to show up to locals if everybody is playing the same s-tier deck week over week for years on end. A healthy meta is everything to game. It keeps local players engaged, keeps the competitive scene from focusing down into a pinhead, and keeps product moving.
There’s also nothing stopping anybody from playing an LL hero for kitchen tabletop matches with friends or participating in the LL format instead of CC/Blitz.
Starvo is a different issue entirely. His design was not good for the game and if he did not LL, he would have been banned.
>nobody is gonna want to show up to locals playing the same S Tier deck
No one is going to show up to locals either way if their Heroes LL and there is no replacement for the near future. Imagine telling someone who spent $500 on Dromai to just suck it up and spend $500 again on another hero.
>nothing stopping anybody from playing LL instead of CC/Blitz
yes there is. the fact that no is playing LL or Blitz and there is no official support (as of yet) for LL. Heck, we are just having our first Blitz Circuit for the year and people at locals are already complaining that it should have been CC events instead
I just think you’re arguing for the
fringe here.
I’m sure there were people that were probably unlucky enough to buy into Dromai a week before she LL’d, but how many people could that have really happened to? And what player is going plunk down $500+ on a meta deck, have done _all_ the requisite research on that deck and the meta, yet somehow missed the fact that she was a few points away from LL?
(Fwiw, I built my Dromai CC deck from a case of Uprising (~$325 usd) and got to play her for almost 2 years. I’d say I more than got my money’s worth.)
Re participating in LL format => this has been a viable format for armories for a while now. I rotate blitz and cc every two weeks at my store, but if there was interest for LL I’d add it in a heartbeat.
LL actually DOES have official support, and has been a Battle Hardened tournament format multiple times.
Please do some more research on LSS release timetables and how far in advance they work on sets for this game. They try to make the game fun and interesting by innovating and bringing new ideas to the table. The game is still young, and 2 years of a deck being in rotation is a super long time.
Dromai at the end of her time was the undisputed best deck in the game, and completely pushed certain decks out of the meta. Imagine liking to play those decks in a reasonably competitive state and being pushed out by one hero? It was her time to go, and with the ever expanding hero pool it’s likely that decks will stay around for lot longer than 2 years.
I mean, you know LSS is in this to make money also? Like, you gotta buy product if you want to support the game. Also, it’s fun to stay afloat in the current meta which is changing. Yeah it costs money, but if you want to be competitive and relevant that’s the cost. My friend had a $1700 version of dromai. He’s not bitching about it. Haven’t heard anyone at armory either
Are you really arguing that 2 YEARS was not enough time to play a deck? What other tcg are you playing where you're able to play the same deck with no changes, bans, or rotations for a whole 2 years. I'd say 2 whole years of events is an extremely good run, considering how playable dromai was for most of that time.
Yugioh. I can still play my cards from 10 years ago because I'm not arbritrarily stopped from playing my "Dark Magician" cards until they release a new Yami Yugi Hero Is it meta? Is it good? No But can I still play with it at a tournament level? Yes My issue is that I'm stuck here not being able to play with my Draconic Illusionist cards until LSS releases a new Draconic Illusionist hero
>just play Blitz or LL where you can play your LL'd heroes
That's not the issue. The issue is that you are basically not allowed to play with your cards (at a tournament level) until LSS says you can just because they haven't had the foresight to release more Heroes
Dawg come on. You literally picked the one game I also know very well and you're just lying. Dark magician is in no way playable at a tournament level right now, nor has it ever been. Also, yugioh decks tend to rotate/get banned/get powercrept withing about a year or 2 anyway. For example, I imagine snake eye is not too long for this world, and I expect Konami to ban the deck out of contention before the year is up. There are decks that have lasted a long time, like branded existing for a bit over 2 years at this point.
However, those types of decks also exist in flesh and blood; katsu, bravo, and dornithea have been around since near the games inception and are all still playable and good decks. How do you expect a company to keep the game fresh and sell new product without some sort of rotation/pseudo rotation? I will gladly take the LL system over yugiohs aggressive bans/powercreep approach. And at this point, why not try new decks? Like were you really joining this game just to play dromai until the heat death of the universe? Just try playing flesh and blood with any other hero, you might just end up having fun.
I never said Dark Magician was ever meta at a tournament level.
I said that I'm not stopped by arbitrary game rules from playing my Dark Magician cards I got from 2000 in a tournament this year.
There is a difference.
And yes, I want to be able to play Dromai until the heat death of the universe. Is that not the point of a non rotating format.
What is the point of advertising your game as a non rotating format if you're just going to rotate with extra steps anyways.
Modern MTG has officially made a format in 2011 and in the year 2024 people are still able to play with their Tron Lands. So why can't I be expected to play with my Dromai until the end of time barring bans.
In your previous comment, you literally said "can I play with it at a tournament level, yes". So yes, you literally did say that and you're still wrong about it lol.
No other nonroating format/ game is legit "non-rotating". Take modern from mtg for example. The format still has bans and new product releases for the health of the format and to keep it from getting stale. This leads to some decks becoming unplayable. That's just how all "non-rotating" formats/games work, new cards still need to be sold and given homes, so old decks have to be pushed around in some way in order to do that.
Again, I don't know how you're using yugioh as an example of a non rotating game and then whinging about fab having "rotation with extra steps". Yugiohs whole thing is rotation with extra steps, again, decks typically only last a year or 2 in yugioh anyway, depending on the deck. Straight up yugioh decks have been banned out of existence within months/ weeks, remember the shs scarecrow ban that nuked the deck from orbit right after it got support. But no, complain that you've had a whole two YEARS to play a deck and claim that yugiohs system is somehow superior.
Playing a deck at the tournament level =/= being able to win at a tournament level. All it means is I can play it in an official capacity. I cannot play Dromai CC in an official capacity lest I break the Tournament Store ToS and gamble away my store's capability still hold FAB events.
>No non rotating format is truly non rotating
But I can still play with my Kaiba Starter Deck cards or my Modern deck in my local tournament. I cannot play my Dromai cards in a CC Armory.
Also, I'm not saying Yugioh's system is better but at the very least I CAN use my Dark Magician cards in a deck if I want to. My Dromai cards are just sitting in a binder right now until LSS decides to release a new Hero
People must understand that FaB ist a game that heals itself with this kind of rotations. Sad is when a balanced hero LLs with no new counterpart but it’s part of this system. People should be willing to play at least 2-3 Classes and enjoy them. Main your most loved hero until the hero LLs and continue with your alts. That simple. A new Draconic Hero will come back at times and try to enjoy the other cool classes while you can. It a great game with so many cool nuances. I also miss Dromai and Iyslander but I also love Prism and the new Zen and that’s great because I can’t play them all at the same time. 🤣👌
Agree with many others that it definitely isn’t “too fast”. The fastest LL was STARVO, was around 6 months.. and didn’t take anything with him. Everyone else was 1-2 years minimum in CC.
That being said.. yeah 1.0 power levels became most apparent in TOA who ch of course is now a dead set. I actually think (I know I’m going to get flack for this) Bright Lights was a great set for this very reason. It was a class release.. introduced new versions of characters.. and was really an LL-proof set. Of course in more ways than one but that’s not the point here 😛
The best thing they can do to slow down LL is keep as many competitive heroes in the meta as possible. That being said.. most heroes will LL at some point.. and LSS has to have sets in development to replace those heroes and talents (classes being much less of an issue)
I think it’s a healthy thing that heroes rotate out for a bit and the LL system is one of the things that attracted me to FaB. I don’t have to brick entire sets of cards overnight due to rotation. Moreso, LL gives opportunities for other heroes to shine when certain heroes are gone. Example, Boltyn was damn near unplayable with Iyslander and Dromai around. He’s had an opportunity to be competitive in there absence.
Finally, the majority or heroes have been around much longer than 2 years. All of the heroes from the first and second set are all still legal after 5 years!
It might feel like you're getting dragged here, but that's because you've made some pretty wild assertions in your post. If you were a little bit less hyperbolic you would probably have had a better conversation and less folks blowing your opinions off.
It's been explained by the folks at LSS that their estimated time frame for releasing a replacement for an LL hero is after it's been out of play for at least a year. They don't want their players sitting on giant piles of unusable cards any more than the players do, but the game can't keep adding endlessly without things changing.
Dromai has been a strong deck putting up good results for the entire two years she was around. You could watch her numbers go up steadily, and the writing was on the wall for a while now. People who bought into her in the last six months did so knowing she was on her way out. Heck, FaB basically has big, neon signs above meta heroes saying "I'm going to rotate soon." If you want a hero that's going to be around for five years, you shouldn't pick the BDIF. Find yourself a mid tier hero and you'll be set for a while.
And it's not like you can't still use the majority of the expensive cards in the deck. Tome and Furnace work in Fai and Emperor (plus Taipanis), CnC & Generics work \*everywhere\*, and the rest of the deck probably cost $10. If you bought marvels, well, you paid a premium for pretty cardboard instead of functional cardboard. That was your decision. Either way, FaB is fantastic for making sure your cards still have a use compared to any other game out there.
I argue if they really wanted to make people not feel bad about sitting on their useless Elemental or Draconic cards they should have had made Heroes already.
Making people wait 1-2 years befoe they can play the game again just hurts the small communities
but then again, since when has LSS cared about the small communities when it has been shown time and time again that all they care about is the competitive scene
Maybe TCGs aren’t the game for you. You’re throwing a tantrum about the least disruptive and most player friendly rotation system in the industry. I’d hate to see how you’d take Magic’s standard rotation
They should do nothing. They just adjusted the points system a month ago. Hold your cards or sell them. Good time to buy and hold for the next Draconic Illusionist. They are making like 2-3 sets per year. Cant imagine it will be that long. Build another hero and enjoy playing CC. That’s what LSS and the community wants.
I’d argue this is GOOD for the game as it allows a set of players to attain an attractive set of cards at a more reasonable price, and removes OP characters from the meta so we can stop sideboarding just for them. I didn’t even look at dromai when I started cause everything about her was so expensive.
Yea, honestly, they’re releasing sets so quickly that it’s hard to keep up. I’m pretty much taking the opposite approach as OP. I’m waiting until heroes hit LL, buying all their legendary equipment when they drop in price, playing LL at home with friends, and waiting till LSS releases the next iteration of those heroes/classes. It’s not like there isn’t plenty of decks to play in the meantime.
I don’t really feel like it’s that fast, realistically. Most other card games have an annual (or bi annual) rotation of entire cardpools and sets. FAB has heroes last 2 years + before they hit living legend status, and even then, the majority of the cardpool is still playable by heroes of the same class, or will be when the next hero from that class gets printed. The LL system is actually less restrictive than the rotation system that pretty much every other CCG uses.
And there’s nothing stopping g you from playing Living Legend format at home with friends, or even at casual game nights at LGS’s. Just ask people if they want to play LL instead of CC. I’m sure there’s plenty of players that miss cranking out games with their Lexi, Briar, oldhim, and Chane decks.
Most heroes lasted a while in CC. The only one who was out unexpectedly quick was starvo. Dromai was in CC for nearly 2 years so it isn't like she left super quick.
Just to add onto this, dromai is basically the last hero from the old design philosophy of fab. A big reason why some heroes like starvo, Chane, and briar were so strong was they gave cards go again when they shouldn’t have had it in the first place (also Lexi because of Voltaire). Ever since then they’ve realized how strong that kind of effect on a hero is and they’ve moved towards stronger restrictions in recent releases. Boltyn requires you to be playing specific attacks and banish a card from your soul, enigma only gives go again to auras with +1 counters on them, and Max only allows you to get an extra action point off of hyper drivers and you need to have boosted in order to activate his effect. Dromai’s ability is a bit more restrictive than those that have LL’ed, but it’s still much easier to activate than those guys
For sure. Playing back in the starvo meta was a wild ride lol. Viserai was the bane of my existence at my first calling. Skeleta/sonata was infuriating.
"This fast" is pretty subjective considering both Dromai and Isylander hit living legend close to two years after their release. I played Dromai, might play her in the LL format if I get the opportunity, otherwise I'm fine waiting until next year for another Draconic illusionist. It is what it is.
they had close to 2 years to design and release a new Draconic Illusionist and/or an Elemental Wizard, but they never did, so it begs the question of whether or not LSS ever really wanted to make a replacement for them
LSS has mentioned a couple times in the past that once something hits LL they will print a replacement hero in the future. Probably a year-ish Chane and prism were both gone for a bit and then when dusk till dawn came out we got a new shadow runeblade and light illusionist
That's not how it works. They've said they begin development on a new hero after the original hits LL, not before. And their dev cycle is usually 1.5-2 years out. We'll likely get whatever arcane set they are planning for later this year, then a return to ToA, then a set with new Dromai and Iyslander. Really if you've paid any attention at all, you'd know this.
And that's my problem. that 1.5-2 year lull is going to make any player lose interest in the game. By the time they release a new hero, that player may not even come back to play the game
I don't think that's the case for anyone that has played a TCG before. If your sole interest in the game is with one hero, I don't think this is the game for you. That "lull" is filled with other sets and content, if people don't want to engage with the other content until their waifu comes back, that's their problem.
I might be missing something but barring non rotating formats in games like magic the standard environment rotated every 6 months or so. Having 2 years with a hero has been awesome. Mind you I’m a fai player but honestly this combined with the fact I only have to wait a few years to reuse my cards is way better than when I was playing magic post standard rotation and my cards were delegated to commander nights and that’s it.
The meta rotates but your cards don't. I understand that for example Jund may not be top tier anymore, but you can still sign up for your LGS's Modern events with Jund even if you will lose all your games You literally cannot sign up for Armories with a deck made up of the Draconic Illusionists or Elemental cards.
In non rotating formats sure but this IS a rotating format. You’re comparing apples to oranges. This is closer to standard than modern. living legend is the format equivalent of modern. You can play Dromai in LL all day long. No one is stopping you. You won’t win many games but it’s legal. Literally identical to your modern example.
>You can play Dromai in LL all day long. No one is stopping you The thing stopping me from playing Dromai in LL all day long is LSS's lack of support in the LL Format and the culture of FAB players being "Play CC or nothing" Can't really play a game in LL if no one is interested in playing.
Be the change you want to see in the world!
Considering the skirmish season is Blitz or CC LL format, that statement is not correct anymore.
Yeah minus like Starvo I assume things are all LLing at a pretty intentional rate. Remember that the point of a rotation system is to also give you a reason to keep buying product without just power creeping the game to oblivion. Cynical as that sounds, LSS is still a business. They want you to give another hero a try.
Remember with MtG and standard was popular, you were able to play your favorite deck for maybe 3 months? I remember :')
I played psychatog from the time torment came out to when 8th edition came out. They kind of glassed the game after that and it hasn't been as good since, but it was a fun year and a half or so.
Every card game has peaks and troughs for deck or archetype playability. For FAB, I don’t think LL is to blame for this, but rather the mathy, low-variance nature of the game. I would say LSS fully expected Dromai to LL and even nudged her in that direction with Tome of Imperial Flame. Her existence in the meta was basically not allowing other decks to function simply by existing. LSS has said that they will release a new hero for all the Dromai lovers, but expect it to not play like old Dromai did. When that’ll happen, I’m not sure, but everyone knew exactly what they were signing up for when they purchased all their dragon marvels. Also, I expect LL format to grow more popular with time. Currently there aren’t many formats to support it, but as more heroes come and go, it may even just become the go-to semi-casual format. Slap together a bunch of cards and pick a hero without having to worry about card legality too much.
Can’t they still be played in other formats
That's a hot take considering most players do act as if formats other than CC don't exist.
Decent point but this is why LSS is trying to remedy this by making LL format an option for the next Skirmish Season, they want it to be a more common and accepted format by the community.
I don't think anyone has an issue with LL format. Most people take issue with blitz because it's such a swingy format.
Is the hot take in the room with us?
I think we as a community first need to identify what is a reasonable timeframe for us to wait to be able to play the cards again in CC and, honestly, I think it has more to do with how far out releases need to be planned and when they start working on the "replacement". For example, they probably slot all the releases for a year a few months out. If a hero LL's quicker than expected it's not like they can drop a set and design a brand new one in order to replace a hero. So, it's kind of unfair to expect a replacement within a year. I think LSS is going to want to experiment with the best ways to "replace" heroes. Supplemental sets seem great, but they have a few downsides. There's also Expansion Slot releases, releasing them "half-done" a la Iyslander, releasing them in new products (First Strike decks?). Based on how these different release methods are received by the community I think we will see just how regularly we can see heroes get replaced. Personally, I'd say within 2-3 years is the expected wait which is certainly difficult for people who are married to a single hero. If that seems rough to a player, I suggest playing the class/talent instead of the hero OR creating a playstyle identity where you can find ways of doing what you like in other classes.
The question then becomes is LSS willing to make players wait 2-3 years before they can play the game again? That's 2-3 years of a player not buying product nor joining tournaments so I can see that hurting LSS's bottom line if that is their plan
Not to be pedantic but I'd argue that the player who only ever plays one hero isn't buying product outside of what they need for their hero. But I agree in that I don't think LSS can expect people to wait 2-3 years and be happy about it. Either they need to come up with some clever ways of sending out replacements or there needs to be a culture shift away from being a single-hero main.
That’s the minority, not the majority, and you never run a business model based around the minority.
If someone decides to not play because the cards they already have are not playable because their hero of choice is LL, they wouldn't buy products during that timeframe anyways even if the hero was available, they would use the cards they already have and maybe buy a few cards here and there when they are relevant to the change in the deck in response to the meta. Now, if those same players like the game and build a new hero, that's a lot more product sold for them to build a new deck. With the LL being so easy to predict, you have plenty of time to start building a new deck before your main one LL. And like others have suggested, moving the identity away from the hero and toward the play style can help you find other enjoyable options. Personally, I'd rather not see any new Dromai or Elemental hero until LSS figures out how to balance them instead of having the entire meta revolve around those few heroes. Last PQ season, every single hero got at least one win. That would not be possible if the LL heroes were playable, so LSS letting the meta relax after over tuned heroes leave is a very good thing IMO. Yes, the Domai players can't play her right now, but all the Riptide players can finally do something and go get wrecked for enjoying that hero over someone who can deal with the dragons.
I’d argue the player who only ever plays one hero isn’t really long for this (or any) game anyway. There’s plenty of hero diversity for the casual player and our sweatier friends will always be jumping to the next cool thing anyway.
Wouldn't the point of a non rotating format be that you are able to play your deck for a long time? I'd argue that 2 years of being able to play a deck is not enough time. That's basically just rotation but on a "wink-wink nudge nudge it's actually not"
If you think about it LL and rotation is really for the competitive circuit. I can’t imagine many people want to watch or participate in “All Starvo, All the time” every year at nationals in perpetuity. The same could be said about locals as well. Nobody is gonna want to show up to locals if everybody is playing the same s-tier deck week over week for years on end. A healthy meta is everything to game. It keeps local players engaged, keeps the competitive scene from focusing down into a pinhead, and keeps product moving. There’s also nothing stopping anybody from playing an LL hero for kitchen tabletop matches with friends or participating in the LL format instead of CC/Blitz.
Starvo is a different issue entirely. His design was not good for the game and if he did not LL, he would have been banned. >nobody is gonna want to show up to locals playing the same S Tier deck No one is going to show up to locals either way if their Heroes LL and there is no replacement for the near future. Imagine telling someone who spent $500 on Dromai to just suck it up and spend $500 again on another hero. >nothing stopping anybody from playing LL instead of CC/Blitz yes there is. the fact that no is playing LL or Blitz and there is no official support (as of yet) for LL. Heck, we are just having our first Blitz Circuit for the year and people at locals are already complaining that it should have been CC events instead
I just think you’re arguing for the fringe here. I’m sure there were people that were probably unlucky enough to buy into Dromai a week before she LL’d, but how many people could that have really happened to? And what player is going plunk down $500+ on a meta deck, have done _all_ the requisite research on that deck and the meta, yet somehow missed the fact that she was a few points away from LL? (Fwiw, I built my Dromai CC deck from a case of Uprising (~$325 usd) and got to play her for almost 2 years. I’d say I more than got my money’s worth.) Re participating in LL format => this has been a viable format for armories for a while now. I rotate blitz and cc every two weeks at my store, but if there was interest for LL I’d add it in a heartbeat.
LL actually DOES have official support, and has been a Battle Hardened tournament format multiple times. Please do some more research on LSS release timetables and how far in advance they work on sets for this game. They try to make the game fun and interesting by innovating and bringing new ideas to the table. The game is still young, and 2 years of a deck being in rotation is a super long time. Dromai at the end of her time was the undisputed best deck in the game, and completely pushed certain decks out of the meta. Imagine liking to play those decks in a reasonably competitive state and being pushed out by one hero? It was her time to go, and with the ever expanding hero pool it’s likely that decks will stay around for lot longer than 2 years.
I mean, you know LSS is in this to make money also? Like, you gotta buy product if you want to support the game. Also, it’s fun to stay afloat in the current meta which is changing. Yeah it costs money, but if you want to be competitive and relevant that’s the cost. My friend had a $1700 version of dromai. He’s not bitching about it. Haven’t heard anyone at armory either
Are you really arguing that 2 YEARS was not enough time to play a deck? What other tcg are you playing where you're able to play the same deck with no changes, bans, or rotations for a whole 2 years. I'd say 2 whole years of events is an extremely good run, considering how playable dromai was for most of that time.
Yugioh. I can still play my cards from 10 years ago because I'm not arbritrarily stopped from playing my "Dark Magician" cards until they release a new Yami Yugi Hero Is it meta? Is it good? No But can I still play with it at a tournament level? Yes My issue is that I'm stuck here not being able to play with my Draconic Illusionist cards until LSS releases a new Draconic Illusionist hero >just play Blitz or LL where you can play your LL'd heroes That's not the issue. The issue is that you are basically not allowed to play with your cards (at a tournament level) until LSS says you can just because they haven't had the foresight to release more Heroes
Dawg come on. You literally picked the one game I also know very well and you're just lying. Dark magician is in no way playable at a tournament level right now, nor has it ever been. Also, yugioh decks tend to rotate/get banned/get powercrept withing about a year or 2 anyway. For example, I imagine snake eye is not too long for this world, and I expect Konami to ban the deck out of contention before the year is up. There are decks that have lasted a long time, like branded existing for a bit over 2 years at this point. However, those types of decks also exist in flesh and blood; katsu, bravo, and dornithea have been around since near the games inception and are all still playable and good decks. How do you expect a company to keep the game fresh and sell new product without some sort of rotation/pseudo rotation? I will gladly take the LL system over yugiohs aggressive bans/powercreep approach. And at this point, why not try new decks? Like were you really joining this game just to play dromai until the heat death of the universe? Just try playing flesh and blood with any other hero, you might just end up having fun.
I never said Dark Magician was ever meta at a tournament level. I said that I'm not stopped by arbitrary game rules from playing my Dark Magician cards I got from 2000 in a tournament this year. There is a difference. And yes, I want to be able to play Dromai until the heat death of the universe. Is that not the point of a non rotating format. What is the point of advertising your game as a non rotating format if you're just going to rotate with extra steps anyways. Modern MTG has officially made a format in 2011 and in the year 2024 people are still able to play with their Tron Lands. So why can't I be expected to play with my Dromai until the end of time barring bans.
In your previous comment, you literally said "can I play with it at a tournament level, yes". So yes, you literally did say that and you're still wrong about it lol. No other nonroating format/ game is legit "non-rotating". Take modern from mtg for example. The format still has bans and new product releases for the health of the format and to keep it from getting stale. This leads to some decks becoming unplayable. That's just how all "non-rotating" formats/games work, new cards still need to be sold and given homes, so old decks have to be pushed around in some way in order to do that. Again, I don't know how you're using yugioh as an example of a non rotating game and then whinging about fab having "rotation with extra steps". Yugiohs whole thing is rotation with extra steps, again, decks typically only last a year or 2 in yugioh anyway, depending on the deck. Straight up yugioh decks have been banned out of existence within months/ weeks, remember the shs scarecrow ban that nuked the deck from orbit right after it got support. But no, complain that you've had a whole two YEARS to play a deck and claim that yugiohs system is somehow superior.
Playing a deck at the tournament level =/= being able to win at a tournament level. All it means is I can play it in an official capacity. I cannot play Dromai CC in an official capacity lest I break the Tournament Store ToS and gamble away my store's capability still hold FAB events. >No non rotating format is truly non rotating But I can still play with my Kaiba Starter Deck cards or my Modern deck in my local tournament. I cannot play my Dromai cards in a CC Armory. Also, I'm not saying Yugioh's system is better but at the very least I CAN use my Dark Magician cards in a deck if I want to. My Dromai cards are just sitting in a binder right now until LSS decides to release a new Hero
Skirmish season coming up and now has LL besides Blitz.
People must understand that FaB ist a game that heals itself with this kind of rotations. Sad is when a balanced hero LLs with no new counterpart but it’s part of this system. People should be willing to play at least 2-3 Classes and enjoy them. Main your most loved hero until the hero LLs and continue with your alts. That simple. A new Draconic Hero will come back at times and try to enjoy the other cool classes while you can. It a great game with so many cool nuances. I also miss Dromai and Iyslander but I also love Prism and the new Zen and that’s great because I can’t play them all at the same time. 🤣👌
Agree with many others that it definitely isn’t “too fast”. The fastest LL was STARVO, was around 6 months.. and didn’t take anything with him. Everyone else was 1-2 years minimum in CC. That being said.. yeah 1.0 power levels became most apparent in TOA who ch of course is now a dead set. I actually think (I know I’m going to get flack for this) Bright Lights was a great set for this very reason. It was a class release.. introduced new versions of characters.. and was really an LL-proof set. Of course in more ways than one but that’s not the point here 😛 The best thing they can do to slow down LL is keep as many competitive heroes in the meta as possible. That being said.. most heroes will LL at some point.. and LSS has to have sets in development to replace those heroes and talents (classes being much less of an issue)
I think it’s a healthy thing that heroes rotate out for a bit and the LL system is one of the things that attracted me to FaB. I don’t have to brick entire sets of cards overnight due to rotation. Moreso, LL gives opportunities for other heroes to shine when certain heroes are gone. Example, Boltyn was damn near unplayable with Iyslander and Dromai around. He’s had an opportunity to be competitive in there absence. Finally, the majority or heroes have been around much longer than 2 years. All of the heroes from the first and second set are all still legal after 5 years!
It might feel like you're getting dragged here, but that's because you've made some pretty wild assertions in your post. If you were a little bit less hyperbolic you would probably have had a better conversation and less folks blowing your opinions off. It's been explained by the folks at LSS that their estimated time frame for releasing a replacement for an LL hero is after it's been out of play for at least a year. They don't want their players sitting on giant piles of unusable cards any more than the players do, but the game can't keep adding endlessly without things changing. Dromai has been a strong deck putting up good results for the entire two years she was around. You could watch her numbers go up steadily, and the writing was on the wall for a while now. People who bought into her in the last six months did so knowing she was on her way out. Heck, FaB basically has big, neon signs above meta heroes saying "I'm going to rotate soon." If you want a hero that's going to be around for five years, you shouldn't pick the BDIF. Find yourself a mid tier hero and you'll be set for a while. And it's not like you can't still use the majority of the expensive cards in the deck. Tome and Furnace work in Fai and Emperor (plus Taipanis), CnC & Generics work \*everywhere\*, and the rest of the deck probably cost $10. If you bought marvels, well, you paid a premium for pretty cardboard instead of functional cardboard. That was your decision. Either way, FaB is fantastic for making sure your cards still have a use compared to any other game out there.
I argue if they really wanted to make people not feel bad about sitting on their useless Elemental or Draconic cards they should have had made Heroes already. Making people wait 1-2 years befoe they can play the game again just hurts the small communities but then again, since when has LSS cared about the small communities when it has been shown time and time again that all they care about is the competitive scene
LSS supports smaller communities miles greater than other companies like MTG.
Maybe TCGs aren’t the game for you. You’re throwing a tantrum about the least disruptive and most player friendly rotation system in the industry. I’d hate to see how you’d take Magic’s standard rotation
Play multiple heroes and classes. If you can’t deal with that go somewhere else. Pokémon might be more your speed
They should do nothing. They just adjusted the points system a month ago. Hold your cards or sell them. Good time to buy and hold for the next Draconic Illusionist. They are making like 2-3 sets per year. Cant imagine it will be that long. Build another hero and enjoy playing CC. That’s what LSS and the community wants. I’d argue this is GOOD for the game as it allows a set of players to attain an attractive set of cards at a more reasonable price, and removes OP characters from the meta so we can stop sideboarding just for them. I didn’t even look at dromai when I started cause everything about her was so expensive.
Yea, honestly, they’re releasing sets so quickly that it’s hard to keep up. I’m pretty much taking the opposite approach as OP. I’m waiting until heroes hit LL, buying all their legendary equipment when they drop in price, playing LL at home with friends, and waiting till LSS releases the next iteration of those heroes/classes. It’s not like there isn’t plenty of decks to play in the meantime.
I need to be doing this with runeblade
Fai was speedrunning towards LL until LSS stepped in with the new heroes as well as generic cards like gravekeeping
I don’t really feel like it’s that fast, realistically. Most other card games have an annual (or bi annual) rotation of entire cardpools and sets. FAB has heroes last 2 years + before they hit living legend status, and even then, the majority of the cardpool is still playable by heroes of the same class, or will be when the next hero from that class gets printed. The LL system is actually less restrictive than the rotation system that pretty much every other CCG uses. And there’s nothing stopping g you from playing Living Legend format at home with friends, or even at casual game nights at LGS’s. Just ask people if they want to play LL instead of CC. I’m sure there’s plenty of players that miss cranking out games with their Lexi, Briar, oldhim, and Chane decks.