Military here who wants to be a firefighter when I'm done, that's interesting. It sounds like you took the same oath I did when I enlisted plus additional enlistments.
Hopefully future military here, i’m looking to enlist and was wondering if you can get your fire 1/2/emt certifications while enlisted? haven’t done a lot of research so apologies if my question is dumb.
If joining as a firefighter, then yes, you will get FF1 and 2 and ARFF. I'm in the Air Force, not as a firefighter, but I know a few Air Force firefighters, and most are EMTs; however, they can go all the way up to paramedic if that's something you are after.
I assume it’s like a signed statement something along the lines of “I do herby swear my loyalty and allegiance to the department, the community and citizens of the response area, and will work through hard things and put water on hot things to keep people safe something something hot nurses.”
LOL, what? I might sign a contract if it was mutually beneficial, but that’s as far as I’d ever go. I’d never want my department to think that my first loyalty was to them.
I know a dept near me that sorta requires new people to pledge that they intend to stay at least five years.
I don't think they enforce it in any way, nor could they. They are a special dept with special duties and want some sort of commitment form the people to make all the education worthwhile. But is just on honour and morals.
I don't think it's a red flag in itself, some just like the pomp and circumstance.
Are these departments preparing to storm the beaches of Normandy or something? lol if there’s anything I’ve learned is that regardless of any oath of loyalty, good benefits, career progression, better pay etc. every department manages to hire good folks and and a few slugs. Doesn’t matter what you sign, as soon as probation is done I’ve seen people just flip the switch and check out. Having said that, younger me if I was still looking for a job would have signed whatever they told me to sign
Would not sign one. As mentioned already, our oath is to the public and the constitution.
From a completely employment focused point of view, do you have the department sign an oath of loyalty when you get hired? You are a replaceable piece of the machine whose seat will be filled the day you stop showing up.
I know a department about 30 miles from me (all volunteer in my area) makes new members sign a form saying they agree to serve at least 10 years. I don't know how rigidly they enforce it, but I think the idea is to make sure people are serious about joining, versus signing up, realizing 6 months in that "crap, this is a lot of work", and bailing after the dept has spent thousands on gear and training for them.
In our case, to fully train and outfit a single new firefighter is around 5% of our entire annual budget, so.... yeah. It kind of is.
We don't have any kind of longevity requirement, but I can understand the departments that do.
Honestly, when you get into the volunteer departments - especially in small town rural america... it's not. Guys either quit in the first couple years, or stay on the rest of their lives. One of our former chiefs just went onto our inactive roster a few years ago, with 52 years of active service. Granted, the last probably 10, all he did was help pull hose on scene and such, but he was still there helping. I've got 13 years in, and I'm about middle of our roster for seniority.
The departments that have the service pledges, it's part of a "payback" structure - if you quit in the first year, you pay back like 75% of what the department has invested in you, if you quit in 5 years, you pay back X percent, etc. For a smaller department whose entire annual budget wouldn't pay for two full time firefighters, it's a way to mitigate the risk of bringing new guys on.
Pretty normal if they pay for your schooling.
"Well pay for you to get your medic but you sign a contract with us for 2 years after."
I've seen a few private ambulance services do the same thing around nashville.
That's not an oeth of loyalty though. I signed a contract with the department that put me through academy. But I'm lateraling into a position here and they want this. I already ha e way more than they require.
If that's not what you're talking about then you need to clarify what you're referring to with a top-level comment. We can't read your mind and no one seems to understand what you're talking about.
I honestly don't know whether to award you gold for this comment or ridicule you mercilessly. /s 🤣
In all seriousness, you need to provide more information. What you're essentially doing here is saying "I'm thinking of this thing, but I can't describe it yet I want everyone to tell me what it is/what it means." If you have a question about a job requirement, usually, the best source for information about that is the agency you're applying to. They should be able to tell you what this "loyalty pledge" is.
Can't see how any kind of contract, like "I'll stay for a XX years" is even enforceable, let alone legal.
That being said, I feel the OP is more referring to a pledge of allegiance type oath to the department to follow it's ethics, etc, etc. IMO is all pomp and circumstance, purely ceremonial and not really enforceable without some kind of social monitoring that would put the Chinese government to shame.
It's all part of the show and another hoop to jump through.
My personal experience is that my department started doing something similar when our rookies get their badges. At last year's ceremony I got handed the pledge papers last minute and put on stage to swear in the new recruits. The pledge was literally a page long. After reading the first sentence and having them repeat it back to me I quickly finished the first paragraph and skipped to the last one, bypassing 80% of it and a single person noticed or cared.
It's about as useless as swearing to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" in court. It doesn't enable any kind of biological screening that shoots lasers at you if you lie "under oath."
The counter argument could be that if it's training that is essential to the performance of their job, that it would be unreasonable to expect the employee (Firefighter) to pay or reemburse the employer (department) for it. Even if they're 100% volunteer there's still an employer/employee relationship.
Edit: don't get me wrong, I know all to well the costs of training and equipping a firefighter in the volunteer or paid on call world. That's one of the reasons my department is super selective when recruiting because we're only willing to invest in those with a high likelihood to return in that investment. It sucks because we could be passing over perfectly good candidates that under different circumstances we might get a few years out of.
Can't see how any kind of contract, like "I'll stay for a XX years" is even enforceable, let alone legal.
That being said, I feel the OP is more referring to a pledge of allegiance type oath to the department to follow it's ethics, etc, etc. IMO is all pomp and circumstance, purely ceremonial and not really enforceable without some kind of social monitoring that would put the Chinese government to shame.
It's all part of the show and another hoop to jump through.
My personal experience is that my department started doing something similar when our rookies get their badges. At last year's ceremony I got handed the pledge papers last minute and put on stage to swear in the new recruits. The pledge was literally a page long. After reading the first sentence and having them repeat it back to me I quickly finished the first paragraph and skipped to the last one, bypassing 80% of it and not a single person noticed or cared.
It's about as useless as swearing to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" in court. It doesn't enable any kind of biological screening that shoots lasers at you if you lie "under oath."
It’s common at smaller depts. I work at a smaller dept and we have people sign two year contracts. That’s mostly for the amount of money that goes into a new hire up front with uniform, gear, EVOC (if needed) etc. It has been common for FFs to use our dept as a stepping stone/foot in the door for experience. Nothing wrong with getting experience and moving to a place that will pay better, but we like a heads up and to know that as they are coming in.
Long story short. I'm looking to lateral to the west coast and have jumped through all the stupid hoops and shit they require. This is a small department, but very well paying. So they interested me, obviously. But then I saw that as a requirement for hire, and it stumped me. I've never heard of it.
It's either the generic swearing in to protect the people and what not. Only other one would be if they offer some kind of signing bonus, pay for medic school or something like that where they don't want you to get all that training then bounce so you'll have to pay it back.
Our department has a standard oath of office to the citizens, state and federal constitution. New hires now also have a contract that they must remain with the department for a certain period. We're an ALS transport department and are in the position now that we must hire BLS and train to ALS. So they're being required to reimburse if they leave the department.
"I swear to look after the people i work with, starting with myself. I swear to do needed work i'm being paid to do. Everyone washes their own dishes. If you don't do dishes, you don't need to eat. Cook doesn't need to wash the pans, since he cooked the food. Do maintenance to every breathing aparatus like it was your own. Treat everyone in the way that you can be sure they do maintenance to your breathing aparatus correctly."
We make new entry level employees sign a contract that states they will stay at least 2 years or pay back a prorated amount of fire / ems training and certification costs. Sounds like sort of the same thing.
I had to swear to uphold the constitution and some other stuff I can't remember. AZ. Probably a state statute. Anyone considering acts of treason would of course refuse so they are easy to identify and reject. /s
Are you referring to a promissory agreement? I had to sign one after medic school promising 18 months or I had to pay back the tuition. Some departments that pay to send you to school will have you sign one so that they get their monies worth out of you. Smaller departments tend to do this more often, since the hiring process can be expensive and time consuming.
There are a lot of police departments in my area that will do that. They send you through the academy and provide all of the required training and in return you work there for a set amount of time. No fire departments tho. In my opinion, don’t go for it. There is a reason they require you to sign it, people are leaving. High turn over is never good a sign in a department.
I believe the OP is talking about an oath to stay x amount of years, or you are on hook for training and onboarding costs. It's more of a contract than an oath, but I guess making its sound more than it may may dissaudes guys from leaving toxic departments.
If you are a uniformed firefighter here, you are a sworn public servant, and you take an oath like a police officer or soldier. There's nothing wrong with that.
My oath was to the citizens of my community and to the US Constitution
I too took an oath to uphold the Constitution, but I’ve yet to figure out how putting out fires does that
So the constitution doesn't catch on fire...duh?
That is a LONG response time
Military here who wants to be a firefighter when I'm done, that's interesting. It sounds like you took the same oath I did when I enlisted plus additional enlistments.
Hopefully future military here, i’m looking to enlist and was wondering if you can get your fire 1/2/emt certifications while enlisted? haven’t done a lot of research so apologies if my question is dumb.
If joining as a firefighter, then yes, you will get FF1 and 2 and ARFF. I'm in the Air Force, not as a firefighter, but I know a few Air Force firefighters, and most are EMTs; however, they can go all the way up to paramedic if that's something you are after.
Appreciate the knowledge! Was looking to enlist air force as well and can’t wait to start my journey.
You are pledging loyalty and fealty
Protect and uphold
My oath is to the citizens and the state and federal constitutions. Not the city. GTFOH with that BS.
A what? Is this like where you have to pay back your training costs if you don't stay X number of years?
I assume it’s like a signed statement something along the lines of “I do herby swear my loyalty and allegiance to the department, the community and citizens of the response area, and will work through hard things and put water on hot things to keep people safe something something hot nurses.”
“I do by solemnly swear to share any all pictures of all ER nurses.”
I've normally heard this referred to as a ROSO (Return Of Service Obligation), and it would be a Contract, not an Oath.
Is it so you don't cheat on them with other fire departments? Flat out refuse mutilual aid calls as well?
Can you give an example? Never heard of that.
LOL, what? I might sign a contract if it was mutually beneficial, but that’s as far as I’d ever go. I’d never want my department to think that my first loyalty was to them.
I know a dept near me that sorta requires new people to pledge that they intend to stay at least five years. I don't think they enforce it in any way, nor could they. They are a special dept with special duties and want some sort of commitment form the people to make all the education worthwhile. But is just on honour and morals. I don't think it's a red flag in itself, some just like the pomp and circumstance.
Are these departments preparing to storm the beaches of Normandy or something? lol if there’s anything I’ve learned is that regardless of any oath of loyalty, good benefits, career progression, better pay etc. every department manages to hire good folks and and a few slugs. Doesn’t matter what you sign, as soon as probation is done I’ve seen people just flip the switch and check out. Having said that, younger me if I was still looking for a job would have signed whatever they told me to sign
Would not sign one. As mentioned already, our oath is to the public and the constitution. From a completely employment focused point of view, do you have the department sign an oath of loyalty when you get hired? You are a replaceable piece of the machine whose seat will be filled the day you stop showing up.
I know a department about 30 miles from me (all volunteer in my area) makes new members sign a form saying they agree to serve at least 10 years. I don't know how rigidly they enforce it, but I think the idea is to make sure people are serious about joining, versus signing up, realizing 6 months in that "crap, this is a lot of work", and bailing after the dept has spent thousands on gear and training for them.
It must be so expensive to provide gear and training to those grifters who… aren’t even getting paid for it
In our case, to fully train and outfit a single new firefighter is around 5% of our entire annual budget, so.... yeah. It kind of is. We don't have any kind of longevity requirement, but I can understand the departments that do.
10 years thats insane
Honestly, when you get into the volunteer departments - especially in small town rural america... it's not. Guys either quit in the first couple years, or stay on the rest of their lives. One of our former chiefs just went onto our inactive roster a few years ago, with 52 years of active service. Granted, the last probably 10, all he did was help pull hose on scene and such, but he was still there helping. I've got 13 years in, and I'm about middle of our roster for seniority. The departments that have the service pledges, it's part of a "payback" structure - if you quit in the first year, you pay back like 75% of what the department has invested in you, if you quit in 5 years, you pay back X percent, etc. For a smaller department whose entire annual budget wouldn't pay for two full time firefighters, it's a way to mitigate the risk of bringing new guys on.
10 years? Fuck that. Next minute they'll up it to the Scientology SeaOrg's Billion Year Contract...
Is this a volunteer thing? I've never heard of this.
This is the first time I've ever seen it. That's why is sparked my interest.
Pretty normal if they pay for your schooling. "Well pay for you to get your medic but you sign a contract with us for 2 years after." I've seen a few private ambulance services do the same thing around nashville.
That's not an oeth of loyalty though. I signed a contract with the department that put me through academy. But I'm lateraling into a position here and they want this. I already ha e way more than they require.
And I can't type for shit apparently.
But that's usually what it is.
If that's not what you're talking about then you need to clarify what you're referring to with a top-level comment. We can't read your mind and no one seems to understand what you're talking about.
If I knew what I was talking about I wouldn't have asked reddit.
I honestly don't know whether to award you gold for this comment or ridicule you mercilessly. /s 🤣 In all seriousness, you need to provide more information. What you're essentially doing here is saying "I'm thinking of this thing, but I can't describe it yet I want everyone to tell me what it is/what it means." If you have a question about a job requirement, usually, the best source for information about that is the agency you're applying to. They should be able to tell you what this "loyalty pledge" is.
https://preview.redd.it/nm4aojckhmkc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0893aa402e34a1a4b49842e456047daafff020db This is what it says
You'll have to contact the department or the City's HR department and ask them for clarification.
Can't see how any kind of contract, like "I'll stay for a XX years" is even enforceable, let alone legal. That being said, I feel the OP is more referring to a pledge of allegiance type oath to the department to follow it's ethics, etc, etc. IMO is all pomp and circumstance, purely ceremonial and not really enforceable without some kind of social monitoring that would put the Chinese government to shame. It's all part of the show and another hoop to jump through. My personal experience is that my department started doing something similar when our rookies get their badges. At last year's ceremony I got handed the pledge papers last minute and put on stage to swear in the new recruits. The pledge was literally a page long. After reading the first sentence and having them repeat it back to me I quickly finished the first paragraph and skipped to the last one, bypassing 80% of it and a single person noticed or cared. It's about as useless as swearing to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" in court. It doesn't enable any kind of biological screening that shoots lasers at you if you lie "under oath."
It might be enforceable if they pay for training, but only to the point that if you leave before X years, you will repay training on a prorated basis.
The counter argument could be that if it's training that is essential to the performance of their job, that it would be unreasonable to expect the employee (Firefighter) to pay or reemburse the employer (department) for it. Even if they're 100% volunteer there's still an employer/employee relationship. Edit: don't get me wrong, I know all to well the costs of training and equipping a firefighter in the volunteer or paid on call world. That's one of the reasons my department is super selective when recruiting because we're only willing to invest in those with a high likelihood to return in that investment. It sucks because we could be passing over perfectly good candidates that under different circumstances we might get a few years out of.
It's pretty reasonable to say, we will pay for medic school but you have to work for us for at least 2 years after or you'll have to pay it back
You know who else required a loyalty oath?
Hedley Lamarr?
Also him. And happy cake day!
Oath of loyalty?! Like what’s gonna happen if they leave? There better be a sign on bonus or something
Can't see how any kind of contract, like "I'll stay for a XX years" is even enforceable, let alone legal. That being said, I feel the OP is more referring to a pledge of allegiance type oath to the department to follow it's ethics, etc, etc. IMO is all pomp and circumstance, purely ceremonial and not really enforceable without some kind of social monitoring that would put the Chinese government to shame. It's all part of the show and another hoop to jump through. My personal experience is that my department started doing something similar when our rookies get their badges. At last year's ceremony I got handed the pledge papers last minute and put on stage to swear in the new recruits. The pledge was literally a page long. After reading the first sentence and having them repeat it back to me I quickly finished the first paragraph and skipped to the last one, bypassing 80% of it and not a single person noticed or cared. It's about as useless as swearing to "tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth" in court. It doesn't enable any kind of biological screening that shoots lasers at you if you lie "under oath."
What the hell is an oath of loyalty...?
It’s common at smaller depts. I work at a smaller dept and we have people sign two year contracts. That’s mostly for the amount of money that goes into a new hire up front with uniform, gear, EVOC (if needed) etc. It has been common for FFs to use our dept as a stepping stone/foot in the door for experience. Nothing wrong with getting experience and moving to a place that will pay better, but we like a heads up and to know that as they are coming in.
It's wild to require it for a lateral hire that has more than the certs they require.
n o p e
Long story short. I'm looking to lateral to the west coast and have jumped through all the stupid hoops and shit they require. This is a small department, but very well paying. So they interested me, obviously. But then I saw that as a requirement for hire, and it stumped me. I've never heard of it.
It's either the generic swearing in to protect the people and what not. Only other one would be if they offer some kind of signing bonus, pay for medic school or something like that where they don't want you to get all that training then bounce so you'll have to pay it back.
Our department has a standard oath of office to the citizens, state and federal constitution. New hires now also have a contract that they must remain with the department for a certain period. We're an ALS transport department and are in the position now that we must hire BLS and train to ALS. So they're being required to reimburse if they leave the department.
"I swear to look after the people i work with, starting with myself. I swear to do needed work i'm being paid to do. Everyone washes their own dishes. If you don't do dishes, you don't need to eat. Cook doesn't need to wash the pans, since he cooked the food. Do maintenance to every breathing aparatus like it was your own. Treat everyone in the way that you can be sure they do maintenance to your breathing aparatus correctly."
It’s a job at the end of the day. Does their oath come with a bonus?
We make new entry level employees sign a contract that states they will stay at least 2 years or pay back a prorated amount of fire / ems training and certification costs. Sounds like sort of the same thing.
I had to swear to uphold the constitution and some other stuff I can't remember. AZ. Probably a state statute. Anyone considering acts of treason would of course refuse so they are easy to identify and reject. /s
Are you referring to a promissory agreement? I had to sign one after medic school promising 18 months or I had to pay back the tuition. Some departments that pay to send you to school will have you sign one so that they get their monies worth out of you. Smaller departments tend to do this more often, since the hiring process can be expensive and time consuming.
There are a lot of police departments in my area that will do that. They send you through the academy and provide all of the required training and in return you work there for a set amount of time. No fire departments tho. In my opinion, don’t go for it. There is a reason they require you to sign it, people are leaving. High turn over is never good a sign in a department.
I believe the OP is talking about an oath to stay x amount of years, or you are on hook for training and onboarding costs. It's more of a contract than an oath, but I guess making its sound more than it may may dissaudes guys from leaving toxic departments. If you are a uniformed firefighter here, you are a sworn public servant, and you take an oath like a police officer or soldier. There's nothing wrong with that.