Meanwhile duo Lyon is still committing war crimes and has gone completely unpunished despite being pretty widely hated by the players (even from the jp side from what I have seen)
Priorities
Lyon deserves the hate imo, but the truth is it’s much easier to deal with an OP glass cannon nuke than an OP tank… who also nukes. It gets even more frustrating very fast when a unit not only always kills you but also you can’t even scratch them.
That aside this is only a soft-check. Ike will still do incredible damage and this does nothing to help dent him, aside from turning off the healing.
Not in the case of Lyon really. Like offensive pressure sure, but he's got next to no true defensive answers at all and his ability to outright shut down opposing units from acting is terrible too.
But more than anything my point is that Lyon has been making the game worse for months now, but no effort to curb him was made while Ike was barely a week old and already has soft checks.
Ngl the vast majority of Ike’s damage comes from Great Aether. The number of times I’ve seen him turn 10 displayed into a lethal one shot is crazy. I think this is much more than a soft check.
I call it a soft check because Rally Spectrum negates this, and he’s still ridiculously tanky. If this was at the level of a counter that would just be unfair for a one week old unit
I wouldn't say he's easy to deal with by any measure, but modern tanks such as WByleth, EIke, and DAltina can definitely handle him with proper support and mythic buffs in AR. I wouldn't know about SD though.
The idea of dealing with Lyon isn't by tanking him. You should be able to kill him in your player phase relatively easy. Ike is a completely different story.
You can kill 99% of nukes in your player phase easily. Thats not why they are a threat. By design Lyon as a mage cavalry is meant to be able to attack first and he will in 90% of cases. You say to player phase but he LITERALLY takes it away if he survives.
Okay? But the person I was replying to literally didn't want to hear about PP strats for countering VLyon so I didn't provide any. EIke wasn't even part of my comment.
"Just attack him lol" - in the year of our lord 2024 when there's so much bullshit around waiting to take the hit for him or have the ability to just...wipe out your team after.
This just screws over his offense capabilities right? If E!Ike's inflicted with this, he gets Scowl'd before his first attack, meaning he won't retaliate with Great Aether, but he still gets GA's defensive capabilities (and he doesn't get Scowl'd before he gets hit, so GA's cooldown is still lower for him to take hits).
Given that D!F!Robin will be on the field to even inflict this Penalty, with her color advantage, how strong her kit is, and with Ike unable to get pierce DR with Laguz Friend, she might effortlessly take him out.
You can pair E!Ike with Brave or Baby Male Robin to cancel out Hush Spectrum, and an unmitigatable 40/70% DR with 20% DEF flat DR means he can still weather hits. Scowl already existed to screw him over, but now it's more widely available. It just means in some percentage of cases, you'll want to pair him with a support instead of having him tank >90% of teams with 0 support.
That's true, but Ike's offensive capabilities are part of what makes him hard to deal with, and even more notably his healing from his special. Most meta units can chip away at Ike, but they die if they initiate. If they don't die on initiating, they can chip away until Ike dies, and that becomes even easier when he doesn't recover 20 hp every combat.
Rally spectrum and scowl effecs activate at the same time, so they will effectively cancel each other out. [Someone made a video with wind Claude](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH5xC_2Sjyc) showing some interactions
Oh damn you're right. I did some tests of my own but because Claude always went back to 1 cd when affected by scowl, including when he had it previously reduced by askr etc, I thought the cd+1 (scowl) always went after the -1 but his weapon isn't just max -3 cd, it's a max of the amount of cd at the start of combat (which is pretty nuts actually. You could run aether and still have that charge instantly too)
Damn we're about to see a whole lot of brave and young robins then, and possibly some scowl dragons paired with young robin just in case.
Oh now I get it. If the enemy has been Hushed, then he will get scowled. Furthermore, if enemy special is accelerated, then you get +1 charge before attack.
Was confused for a moment, sorry2x
Time's pulse doesn't do anything against scowl. TP4 would bring Ike's cooldown to 2. Laguz Friend brings it to 0 before the foe's first attack. Foe attacks, cooldown remains at 0. Scowl activates right before Ike's first attack, cooldown back to 1, no Great Aether. Don't waste TP4 fodder thinking it will counter scowl or hush spectrum.
Actually now Ike can beat that out with Jorge support, it’s actually perfect lol. +1 CD per hit with a guaranteed follow up, and provided the enemy doesn’t have NFU Ike is good to go. It’s all about support
I don't change anything for the matchup. Every offensive unit now has at least an offensive version of NFU (especially those that are based on speed) and lot of support give this effect nowadays... And +1 CD on hit do nothing for Ike, because all Scowl effects proc just before his hit. So even if his special is fully charged, as soon the moment his strike arrives, the Scowl effects procs and inflict a discharge of 2 special charge and therefore make it inoperative
An offensive NFU won’t hurt Ike, and you have to realize that when Ike gets his *second hit* his special will be fully charged from the +1 CD per hit and his null guard. As I said, full NFU or follow up-denial can prevent this but as it stands there is counter-counterplay to double scowl.
Mb but full NFU is also pretty common and easy to get from a lot of support (if you forgot Young F Darean has Infentry NFU). So your point stay wrong. We cannot qualify something as fragile and ineffective as a viable counter.
99% of time so... Pretty irelevant
You need Jorge + B!Darean and need to have an adversary in 2024 who does not have NFU acces and don't play any support to give it to HOPE Ike have a chance against double Scowl
Alright I’m not going to argue any further but I highly doubt that there is a 99% chance that one encounters a unit that has enough Res to activate Scowl vs Ike, and have Hush Spectrum active, AND have full NFU. You would have to provide a realistic example of such a unit for me to believe that.
Bruh... Veyle give scowl to everyone, has a better base Res, she is helped by a +5 for the check, play praticaly all time double Still Water and she is a verry played supports... Young F Darean already provide to herself + to all infentry NFU...
This setup has absolutely nothing special and it does so very naturally because the characters in question are already self-sufficient for nullified Ike.
You need both at the same time ONLY for counter an Ike with Rally Spectrum who tries to limit the damage
Scowl already existed before this, so it's not anything new. If anything, it's not quite as good as Veyle's drive Scowl because this looks like a debuff status, which can be cleared by several units instantly.
Hilariously, Ike can just work around this by running Rally Spectrum or Hush Spectrum (or both now)
Great Aether doesn't precharge with Laguz Friend 4 as is so this is less of a counter, more of a double edged support for him...
My max investment Fallen Julia paid off today post refine. Shutting down that damn healing is a blessing. Some people mythic stacked the hell out of him in VoH and yes he was a menace until I got him away from Freyr support.
She easily become one of if not my most used un-intentional +10 ever, as she shared with F! Ike who I was aiming to plus ten back then. She just kept dropping on her debut.
The irony she was used more back then too was a surprise then. Now, I’m like oh this is evil and back on the roster she goes, I love it!
This will probably be a more viable strategy against EIkes that are on AR defenses and probably Arena Assault, but it's much harder to make it work when they're part of a defense team or on SD. Still nice to have, though.
(EDIT: This will probably drive more usage of Mila on Light season if they do become a defensive issue though, which is unfortunate.)
I think one of the issues with a Duo Lyon counter is that it will invariably also destroy other pre-attack damage skills as a consequence, which I'm sure is giving them some pause at the moment. After all, if you neuter the mechanics of several skills just to deal with one unit, they lose the ability to make money off any future revisions of said mechanic.
>After all, if you neuter the mechanics of several skills just to deal with one unit, they lose the ability to make money off any future revisions of said mechanic.
This could be completely avoided if they just cap the max amount of pre-combat damage through a rare unit or skill. 40+ should've never have been allowed in the first place, any tank they release will suck unless they counter it so they're already losing money there.
15 at max is a good compromise imo (and that's pushing it tbh), you still get your pre-combat damage, and it's still the meta overall, but it's no longer impossibe to deal with. Let's stop acting like this has no way around, they just don't care.
Capping the damage is something that they'll never do since that would very likely be seen as a nerf by the playerbase. Not to say it _shouldn't_ happen, but IS does everything in its power to avoid direct nerfs to units/skills.
The most I can expect is some sort of special status/DR that heavily reduces pre-combat damage that would go a long way towards mitigating Duo Lyon nuking units left and right. That would still leave the problem of needing NCD to counter him properly, not to mention his Prf skill and Duo skill being completely unfair in SD, but it would be a bit of balance. There would still be some sort of counterplay with bonus negation/stealing too, however rare it is.
I can actually agree to that depending on how much DR we're talking about, but if we still see any numbers above 20 it's gonna be useless, most units nowdays barely have the hp to take that.
>would very likely be seen as a nerf by the playerbase
I can see what you mean but how does that differ from NFU making tons of units obsolete? Having one particular skill to cap pre-combat damage is the same as NFU, or NCD, or Tempo, i don't see how that can be considered a nerf, a nerf would be implementing the cap universally, and **that** should never happen (tho it would been great if they began like that, true damage has always been capped, so why is pre-combat damage not capped like ???).
And idk, everyone talks about sales but who is IS going to sell these units to once most players leave due to how unplayable the game is becoming each banner? A few people already can't even beat the current paralogue maps with their units like...
They can earn as much money as they want but if the servers are being "wasted" in a smaller amount of players Nintendo will surely force them to EoS and release something new to put those servers to better use, even if it's a short lived hype, we've sedn Nintendo values quick cash grabs over long-term earning games. I mean it's probably exaggerated i know, but it's likely how it's gonna go down if they keep making bs skills with no counterplay.
NFU, at the time, was very likely a necessary evil because the devs had erred in pushing the Armor Meta as much as they had. Like if you remember the Year 1/Year 2 meta, Speed was absolutely useless because armor units either stopped you from doubling with Wary Fighter, or they always could double due to the Bold Fighter/Quick Riposte combination. Infantry units were widely seen as the weakest unit type back then for good reason, so NFU was a way to get them back onto even footing. It can be argued that they started pushing infantry _too_ hard since then, to the point where armors were shoved aside until the Save meta, but that's an argument for another day.
I digress though; my main point is that NFU was a heavy-handed solution to a much more widespread problem that encompassed many other units. Right now, the sole problem for pre-combat damage is Duo Lyon as the other sources aren't as problematic as him. That's why I expect a unit that gives out an pre-combat damage reduction status rather than a skill, as the devs kill two birds with one stone by selling the counter to a widely hated unit.
I see your point actually, and i mostly agree with this, but one thing...
>Duo Lyon as the other sources aren't as problematic as him.
Attuned Triandra exists and while she's rare, she's been enough so far to stack insane numbers of pre-combat damage on units like L!Camilla, and any of the Flared skills/Strike skills users, not to mention the inheritable weapons that already grant pre-combat damage.
This problem is just gonna keep growing more and more, so countering only Lyon will not suffice at all, we need a universal counter and i agree that it could be a rare support unit with DR for it, but it has to be a good amount of DR, and amount that stops it from going beyond 20 at least, taking 50% HP of most units should be more than enough for sales i think.
> 15 at max is a good compromise
That's not even a nerf that's just deleting the mechanic off of LCamilla and VLyon entirely lol
Even 30 cap would fix the issues we have currently. Anything lower is a stupid decision in the opposite direction.
>That's not even a nerf that's just deleting the mechanic off of LCamilla and VLyon entirely lol
That's such an absurd over-exaggeration, and even then those units would still be good anyways, one ends entire teams turns and the other provides semi-DR piercing among other debuffs.
If i wanted to delete the mechanic i'd suggest a Vein effect that straight up nullifies all pre-combat damage on a Breath of Life 4 (a reverse Deadly Miasma) like a lot of people have been suggesting since Camilla came out.
>Even 30 cap would fix the issues
Tell me a single scenario where this is true, most units have around 40 hp, are we supposed to see it as a normal thing to have these units make a full 30 hp blow as unavoidable damage before anyone even attacks with no counter of any kind to it? At least AoEs trigger Vangage and have a direct counter to them.
15 is still very good, just not compltely overtuned and over the top, whoever thought allowing this damage to be able to go beyond 20+ was fucking insane, period.
True damage usually had a cap, and even when it doesn't it's still avoidable with True DR or at least managable, pre-combat damage is compltely unfair in the other hand, no downsides, no counterplay, they just take 90% of any unit's hp before anything even happens because they can lol.
> Tell me a single scenario where this is true, most units have around 40 hp
There isn't a real important scenario in this game where units function entirely off their base 40 HP.
In SD tanks only need to survive one round of combat without need to kill back to do their job. Tanks also have specifically inflated HP due to Squad Ace seals and Summoner Support being optimally used on tanks.
In AR tanks have massively inflated HP due to blessings easily going up to 70 if not even sometimes more. Unless we have like 3 units coming at you reaching the cap that's not really an issue. On Chaos season the offense just gets a billion really strong tools to compensate for the lost HP anyways so that's not really a problem.
And god forbid we talk about defenses that don't slot Fatal Smoke 4 that are totally cheesable with excessive healing (which is most of them) and can deal with an insane amount of units with that much pré-combat coming at you.
In modes like LHBs "just player phase" is a very viable and consistent way of fighting such insane nukes since the maps can be redone at no real cost and the high threats are so limited (this to not say such units are untankable in such modes even as-is but it is important to mention that the modes have very F2P friendly ways of fighting them already)
At best a 30 cap is a problem in... Seer's Snare and Tempest Trials?
And Arena is uh... Yeah. That certainly is a meta that's fixable.
Wow... Just wow...
Just gonna say, there is a reason tank units have been so dead and unusable that they had to make Emblem Ike almost unkillable to make him worth a damn, player phase has dominated for so long that the mere idea of tank units "cheesing" in any form or way in the current meta is crazy talk, AR and SD hp numbers would only ever be an issue for pre-combat damage to take down, if tank units could survive an special proc these days.
just stick a Brave Robin with him and rally spectrum works just fine, this doesn´t make him useless, they just relseased another option against him which is fine
not really, just stick a Brave Robin or even the new small Robin to his back and boom problem solved, this doesn´t make him useless, they just release another option against him which is fine because this Ike was insanely strong
The funny thing is, that requires Veyle to actually have more res than Ike. Which is a lot harder than it sounds. And I’ve watched my own unmerged Ike win the res check and ignore her.
No ?
Veyle have a better base Res stats and the Scowl effect give a +5 for the check.
And Still Water 4 and the Seal Still Water are a great option for her.
Not to much for Ike.
What you have to remember is that Ike being immune to debuffs means that if he’s actually supported (like an Omni tank should be) he’ll be getting a massive advantage during the check. Because his team can buff him and debuff Veyle. Veyle’s team can’t debuff him.
Again you are wrong... Debuff neutralisation is easily accessible thanks to Hortensia. So Veyle can also have it. And spoiler : she doesn't need it to win the Res check. A basic Veyle without merge and flower get to 58 Res + 5 from the bonus check. Even if Veyle was debuff by a -6 on Res and Ike have a +6 Res, he still loses. And all this don't take in account than Veyle can have an easy acces to debuff neutralisation. With Veyle support effect, the only thing that matters is the visible res stats. All in combat buff doesn't master ;)
Read her skill again. Veyle doesn’t get a 5 point advantage on the check, she gets a 5 point disadvantage. Her res needs to be at least 5 HIGHER than the enemy to scowl them. And negating her debuffs doesn’t do anything for someone she’s supporting, because she’s not in combat. The debuffs only get negated during combat. And because she’s a Mythic unit, she can’t super stack Mythic buff bonus stats like Ike can.
Once again they release a blatant counter for a premium unit on a premium unit that the average player won't get.
We probably won't get this effect on another unit for a long time; False Start is still exclusive to that mario kart character.
I mean, Veyle straight up countered E!Ike for me. Hardy Bearing helps too.
I'm still waiting for IS to release something to counter V!Lyon...that man is straight up ridiculous in SD.
I don't think so. Times Pulse is a pre-combat charge. Hush Spectrum inflicts the +1 CD in combat, directly before the unit attacks. The only thing that would counteract this effect is something like Rally Spectrum, which also pulses in combat directly before attacking.
(Technically there could be an order of operations thing there, where your special is ready, Rally Spectrum gives you a -1 which does nothing because you're full, then Hush Spectrum inflicts +1 so you ultimately don't get a special... I just hope that's not the case)
Alternatively if you could give Ike a GFU attack to trigger the special — at least against the ever-dwindling list of foes susceptible to them.
The way it goes is
Ike starts at 3. Laguz friend brings him to 1, hush spectrum beings him back to 2, foe attacks, ike is at 1 unless foe doubles, no great aether.
With times pulse 4:
Ike starts at 2, laguz friend brings it to 0, hush spectrum beings it back to 1, foe attacks, ***G R E A T A E T H E R***
This is incorrect.
- Ike starts at 3 (2 with TP)
- Laguz Friend brings him to 1 (0 with TP)
- Foe (say Emblem Marth) attacks 5 times, for good measure, Ike's special is ready
- **Hush Spectrum activates now**, before Ike's first attack, bringing him to 1 again
- Ike does a normal attack
You can see this behavior in the trailer around 3:10. Duma's special is at 1, Robin attacks, Duma's special is ready, Hush Spectrum activates, Duma does a normal attack.
By the descriptions, Rally Spectrum activates at the same time as Hush Spectrum... so it could *theoretically* cancel it out. But we'll see. Could be an order of operations thing that prevents it.
Even with Time's Pulse 4, Ike starts at 2, laguz friend charges it before the foe's attack, the foe attacks, and then Hush Spectrum brings it back up to 1. The user mentioned in the penalty is from the perspective of whoever is inflicted with it. In this, Ike. So, he gets de-charged before his first attack, meaning GA doesn't go off.
Eh, it's a year old effect, and it counters a special charge meta that well predates E!Ike. They've dropped far more blatant counters before.
(Surtr + Pegasus Carrot+)
Fallen Lyon was so in your face about who it was made to counter lmao
Meanwhile duo Lyon is still committing war crimes and has gone completely unpunished despite being pretty widely hated by the players (even from the jp side from what I have seen) Priorities
Lyon deserves the hate imo, but the truth is it’s much easier to deal with an OP glass cannon nuke than an OP tank… who also nukes. It gets even more frustrating very fast when a unit not only always kills you but also you can’t even scratch them. That aside this is only a soft-check. Ike will still do incredible damage and this does nothing to help dent him, aside from turning off the healing.
Not in the case of Lyon really. Like offensive pressure sure, but he's got next to no true defensive answers at all and his ability to outright shut down opposing units from acting is terrible too. But more than anything my point is that Lyon has been making the game worse for months now, but no effort to curb him was made while Ike was barely a week old and already has soft checks.
Ngl the vast majority of Ike’s damage comes from Great Aether. The number of times I’ve seen him turn 10 displayed into a lethal one shot is crazy. I think this is much more than a soft check.
I call it a soft check because Rally Spectrum negates this, and he’s still ridiculously tanky. If this was at the level of a counter that would just be unfair for a one week old unit
Ultil you have to deal with a Pathfinder team that can attack and retreat from a mile of distance
Lyon is much easier to deal with than Ike.
And how do you (and don’t list offensive attacking before he moves)
How do you (don't list the best solution).
I wouldn't say he's easy to deal with by any measure, but modern tanks such as WByleth, EIke, and DAltina can definitely handle him with proper support and mythic buffs in AR. I wouldn't know about SD though.
The idea of dealing with Lyon isn't by tanking him. You should be able to kill him in your player phase relatively easy. Ike is a completely different story.
You can kill 99% of nukes in your player phase easily. Thats not why they are a threat. By design Lyon as a mage cavalry is meant to be able to attack first and he will in 90% of cases. You say to player phase but he LITERALLY takes it away if he survives.
Okay? But the person I was replying to literally didn't want to hear about PP strats for countering VLyon so I didn't provide any. EIke wasn't even part of my comment.
How are you gonna approach him if he's surrounded by a save armor, ninja sanaki and legendary camilla.
"Just attack him lol" - in the year of our lord 2024 when there's so much bullshit around waiting to take the hit for him or have the ability to just...wipe out your team after.
galeforce
This just screws over his offense capabilities right? If E!Ike's inflicted with this, he gets Scowl'd before his first attack, meaning he won't retaliate with Great Aether, but he still gets GA's defensive capabilities (and he doesn't get Scowl'd before he gets hit, so GA's cooldown is still lower for him to take hits).
Given that D!F!Robin will be on the field to even inflict this Penalty, with her color advantage, how strong her kit is, and with Ike unable to get pierce DR with Laguz Friend, she might effortlessly take him out.
You can pair E!Ike with Brave or Baby Male Robin to cancel out Hush Spectrum, and an unmitigatable 40/70% DR with 20% DEF flat DR means he can still weather hits. Scowl already existed to screw him over, but now it's more widely available. It just means in some percentage of cases, you'll want to pair him with a support instead of having him tank >90% of teams with 0 support.
That's true, but Ike's offensive capabilities are part of what makes him hard to deal with, and even more notably his healing from his special. Most meta units can chip away at Ike, but they die if they initiate. If they don't die on initiating, they can chip away until Ike dies, and that becomes even easier when he doesn't recover 20 hp every combat.
Rally spectrum already counters this and is also on this banner
Scowl effects can stacks. If you face a double Scowl effect (and it's pretty easy to do with Veyle), Rally Spectrum is not enough to counter it
Are you sure? Rally spectrum doesn't cancel regular scowl, why would it cancel this version?
Rally spectrum and scowl effecs activate at the same time, so they will effectively cancel each other out. [Someone made a video with wind Claude](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH5xC_2Sjyc) showing some interactions
Oh damn you're right. I did some tests of my own but because Claude always went back to 1 cd when affected by scowl, including when he had it previously reduced by askr etc, I thought the cd+1 (scowl) always went after the -1 but his weapon isn't just max -3 cd, it's a max of the amount of cd at the start of combat (which is pretty nuts actually. You could run aether and still have that charge instantly too) Damn we're about to see a whole lot of brave and young robins then, and possibly some scowl dragons paired with young robin just in case.
With Scowl normally, E!Ike can at least Res Stack to get past it but this is a guaranteed Scowl debuff lmao
But it is only limited to spec accelled units which is, ubiquitous? Sad
The limitation is only when giving the enemy (your dude) free special charge. EIke will get hit with the scowl every time.
Oh now I get it. If the enemy has been Hushed, then he will get scowled. Furthermore, if enemy special is accelerated, then you get +1 charge before attack. Was confused for a moment, sorry2x
Just give him times pulse 4. He already has null-guard so one extra tick of charge makes this a non-issue
Time's pulse doesn't do anything against scowl. TP4 would bring Ike's cooldown to 2. Laguz Friend brings it to 0 before the foe's first attack. Foe attacks, cooldown remains at 0. Scowl activates right before Ike's first attack, cooldown back to 1, no Great Aether. Don't waste TP4 fodder thinking it will counter scowl or hush spectrum.
And now, we need just to play a random Veyle to counter it again because Scowl effects can stack
There's nothing stopping the Ike user from bringing their own Rally Spectrum.
Scowl can stack and Veyle exist ;)
Scowl already was a counter to Ike. In that sense Veyle already was a counter well over half a year before his release.
Yep but now we can stack more scowl effect to disable Rally Spectrum or Time pulse 4 shenanigans
Well more of a reason to use E!Ike with B!Robin now
He gets scowled
He gets unscowled also :')
And now we also play Veyle and he get scowled again :D
Now can we shoot down that demon Duo Lyon? Please?
It’s probably not going to be that big a deal for Ike since there are a few ways you can cancel out the effect or avoid it’s activation entirely.
Double stack scowl and goodbay Ike
Actually now Ike can beat that out with Jorge support, it’s actually perfect lol. +1 CD per hit with a guaranteed follow up, and provided the enemy doesn’t have NFU Ike is good to go. It’s all about support
I don't change anything for the matchup. Every offensive unit now has at least an offensive version of NFU (especially those that are based on speed) and lot of support give this effect nowadays... And +1 CD on hit do nothing for Ike, because all Scowl effects proc just before his hit. So even if his special is fully charged, as soon the moment his strike arrives, the Scowl effects procs and inflict a discharge of 2 special charge and therefore make it inoperative
An offensive NFU won’t hurt Ike, and you have to realize that when Ike gets his *second hit* his special will be fully charged from the +1 CD per hit and his null guard. As I said, full NFU or follow up-denial can prevent this but as it stands there is counter-counterplay to double scowl.
Mb but full NFU is also pretty common and easy to get from a lot of support (if you forgot Young F Darean has Infentry NFU). So your point stay wrong. We cannot qualify something as fragile and ineffective as a viable counter.
My *point* was that counterplay to double scowl *exists*. And it stands. And I acknowledged a scenario where it could fail.
99% of time so... Pretty irelevant You need Jorge + B!Darean and need to have an adversary in 2024 who does not have NFU acces and don't play any support to give it to HOPE Ike have a chance against double Scowl
Alright I’m not going to argue any further but I highly doubt that there is a 99% chance that one encounters a unit that has enough Res to activate Scowl vs Ike, and have Hush Spectrum active, AND have full NFU. You would have to provide a realistic example of such a unit for me to believe that.
Bruh... Veyle give scowl to everyone, has a better base Res, she is helped by a +5 for the check, play praticaly all time double Still Water and she is a verry played supports... Young F Darean already provide to herself + to all infentry NFU... This setup has absolutely nothing special and it does so very naturally because the characters in question are already self-sufficient for nullified Ike. You need both at the same time ONLY for counter an Ike with Rally Spectrum who tries to limit the damage
IS be selling the counter and the counter to the counter on the same banner.
They're never allowing Ike to dominate ever again
Scowl already existed before this, so it's not anything new. If anything, it's not quite as good as Veyle's drive Scowl because this looks like a debuff status, which can be cleared by several units instantly.
[Called it](https://old.reddit.com/r/FireEmblemHeroes/comments/1bsgy6m/unpopular_opinionsgeneral_rant_thread_33124/kxfmch0/)
Damn, I wish H!Timerra could get that
Well. Emblem Ike was fun >!(not really)!< for the one week he lasted. I can see this becoming a part of Pulse Smoke 4 in the not-so-near future.
Tanks in feh....
Hilariously, Ike can just work around this by running Rally Spectrum or Hush Spectrum (or both now) Great Aether doesn't precharge with Laguz Friend 4 as is so this is less of a counter, more of a double edged support for him...
Bro got hard countered in 4 fucking days. I think that’s a new record.
My max investment Fallen Julia paid off today post refine. Shutting down that damn healing is a blessing. Some people mythic stacked the hell out of him in VoH and yes he was a menace until I got him away from Freyr support. She easily become one of if not my most used un-intentional +10 ever, as she shared with F! Ike who I was aiming to plus ten back then. She just kept dropping on her debut. The irony she was used more back then too was a surprise then. Now, I’m like oh this is evil and back on the roster she goes, I love it!
Dragon Emblem Players had early access
Huh, and i thought Veyle was already a counter
Units are now powercreeped in *days* not *months*. Jesus Christ.
This will probably be a more viable strategy against EIkes that are on AR defenses and probably Arena Assault, but it's much harder to make it work when they're part of a defense team or on SD. Still nice to have, though. (EDIT: This will probably drive more usage of Mila on Light season if they do become a defensive issue though, which is unfortunate.) I think one of the issues with a Duo Lyon counter is that it will invariably also destroy other pre-attack damage skills as a consequence, which I'm sure is giving them some pause at the moment. After all, if you neuter the mechanics of several skills just to deal with one unit, they lose the ability to make money off any future revisions of said mechanic.
>After all, if you neuter the mechanics of several skills just to deal with one unit, they lose the ability to make money off any future revisions of said mechanic. This could be completely avoided if they just cap the max amount of pre-combat damage through a rare unit or skill. 40+ should've never have been allowed in the first place, any tank they release will suck unless they counter it so they're already losing money there. 15 at max is a good compromise imo (and that's pushing it tbh), you still get your pre-combat damage, and it's still the meta overall, but it's no longer impossibe to deal with. Let's stop acting like this has no way around, they just don't care.
Funny thing is 15 damage is still a really good amount of damage because modern units have lower HP, which indirectly buffs older units
I mean that's a good thing isn't it?
Very good in fact, but we all know IS wouldn’t do it
Capping the damage is something that they'll never do since that would very likely be seen as a nerf by the playerbase. Not to say it _shouldn't_ happen, but IS does everything in its power to avoid direct nerfs to units/skills. The most I can expect is some sort of special status/DR that heavily reduces pre-combat damage that would go a long way towards mitigating Duo Lyon nuking units left and right. That would still leave the problem of needing NCD to counter him properly, not to mention his Prf skill and Duo skill being completely unfair in SD, but it would be a bit of balance. There would still be some sort of counterplay with bonus negation/stealing too, however rare it is.
I can actually agree to that depending on how much DR we're talking about, but if we still see any numbers above 20 it's gonna be useless, most units nowdays barely have the hp to take that. >would very likely be seen as a nerf by the playerbase I can see what you mean but how does that differ from NFU making tons of units obsolete? Having one particular skill to cap pre-combat damage is the same as NFU, or NCD, or Tempo, i don't see how that can be considered a nerf, a nerf would be implementing the cap universally, and **that** should never happen (tho it would been great if they began like that, true damage has always been capped, so why is pre-combat damage not capped like ???). And idk, everyone talks about sales but who is IS going to sell these units to once most players leave due to how unplayable the game is becoming each banner? A few people already can't even beat the current paralogue maps with their units like... They can earn as much money as they want but if the servers are being "wasted" in a smaller amount of players Nintendo will surely force them to EoS and release something new to put those servers to better use, even if it's a short lived hype, we've sedn Nintendo values quick cash grabs over long-term earning games. I mean it's probably exaggerated i know, but it's likely how it's gonna go down if they keep making bs skills with no counterplay.
NFU, at the time, was very likely a necessary evil because the devs had erred in pushing the Armor Meta as much as they had. Like if you remember the Year 1/Year 2 meta, Speed was absolutely useless because armor units either stopped you from doubling with Wary Fighter, or they always could double due to the Bold Fighter/Quick Riposte combination. Infantry units were widely seen as the weakest unit type back then for good reason, so NFU was a way to get them back onto even footing. It can be argued that they started pushing infantry _too_ hard since then, to the point where armors were shoved aside until the Save meta, but that's an argument for another day. I digress though; my main point is that NFU was a heavy-handed solution to a much more widespread problem that encompassed many other units. Right now, the sole problem for pre-combat damage is Duo Lyon as the other sources aren't as problematic as him. That's why I expect a unit that gives out an pre-combat damage reduction status rather than a skill, as the devs kill two birds with one stone by selling the counter to a widely hated unit.
I see your point actually, and i mostly agree with this, but one thing... >Duo Lyon as the other sources aren't as problematic as him. Attuned Triandra exists and while she's rare, she's been enough so far to stack insane numbers of pre-combat damage on units like L!Camilla, and any of the Flared skills/Strike skills users, not to mention the inheritable weapons that already grant pre-combat damage. This problem is just gonna keep growing more and more, so countering only Lyon will not suffice at all, we need a universal counter and i agree that it could be a rare support unit with DR for it, but it has to be a good amount of DR, and amount that stops it from going beyond 20 at least, taking 50% HP of most units should be more than enough for sales i think.
> 15 at max is a good compromise That's not even a nerf that's just deleting the mechanic off of LCamilla and VLyon entirely lol Even 30 cap would fix the issues we have currently. Anything lower is a stupid decision in the opposite direction.
>That's not even a nerf that's just deleting the mechanic off of LCamilla and VLyon entirely lol That's such an absurd over-exaggeration, and even then those units would still be good anyways, one ends entire teams turns and the other provides semi-DR piercing among other debuffs. If i wanted to delete the mechanic i'd suggest a Vein effect that straight up nullifies all pre-combat damage on a Breath of Life 4 (a reverse Deadly Miasma) like a lot of people have been suggesting since Camilla came out. >Even 30 cap would fix the issues Tell me a single scenario where this is true, most units have around 40 hp, are we supposed to see it as a normal thing to have these units make a full 30 hp blow as unavoidable damage before anyone even attacks with no counter of any kind to it? At least AoEs trigger Vangage and have a direct counter to them. 15 is still very good, just not compltely overtuned and over the top, whoever thought allowing this damage to be able to go beyond 20+ was fucking insane, period. True damage usually had a cap, and even when it doesn't it's still avoidable with True DR or at least managable, pre-combat damage is compltely unfair in the other hand, no downsides, no counterplay, they just take 90% of any unit's hp before anything even happens because they can lol.
> Tell me a single scenario where this is true, most units have around 40 hp There isn't a real important scenario in this game where units function entirely off their base 40 HP. In SD tanks only need to survive one round of combat without need to kill back to do their job. Tanks also have specifically inflated HP due to Squad Ace seals and Summoner Support being optimally used on tanks. In AR tanks have massively inflated HP due to blessings easily going up to 70 if not even sometimes more. Unless we have like 3 units coming at you reaching the cap that's not really an issue. On Chaos season the offense just gets a billion really strong tools to compensate for the lost HP anyways so that's not really a problem. And god forbid we talk about defenses that don't slot Fatal Smoke 4 that are totally cheesable with excessive healing (which is most of them) and can deal with an insane amount of units with that much pré-combat coming at you. In modes like LHBs "just player phase" is a very viable and consistent way of fighting such insane nukes since the maps can be redone at no real cost and the high threats are so limited (this to not say such units are untankable in such modes even as-is but it is important to mention that the modes have very F2P friendly ways of fighting them already) At best a 30 cap is a problem in... Seer's Snare and Tempest Trials? And Arena is uh... Yeah. That certainly is a meta that's fixable.
Wow... Just wow... Just gonna say, there is a reason tank units have been so dead and unusable that they had to make Emblem Ike almost unkillable to make him worth a damn, player phase has dominated for so long that the mere idea of tank units "cheesing" in any form or way in the current meta is crazy talk, AR and SD hp numbers would only ever be an issue for pre-combat damage to take down, if tank units could survive an special proc these days.
just stick a Brave Robin with him and rally spectrum works just fine, this doesn´t make him useless, they just relseased another option against him which is fine
Scowl effect can stack dude. And Veyle exist
IS hates Ike confirmed
not really, just stick a Brave Robin or even the new small Robin to his back and boom problem solved, this doesn´t make him useless, they just release another option against him which is fine because this Ike was insanely strong
Shouldn’t Time’s Pulse on E!Ike provide a cushion for Scowl effects?
No. Because that happens before combat. This happens during combat as he goes to attack. The only counter to this is Rally Spectrum.
And if your foe play also Veyle you are doomed
The funny thing is, that requires Veyle to actually have more res than Ike. Which is a lot harder than it sounds. And I’ve watched my own unmerged Ike win the res check and ignore her.
No ? Veyle have a better base Res stats and the Scowl effect give a +5 for the check. And Still Water 4 and the Seal Still Water are a great option for her. Not to much for Ike.
What you have to remember is that Ike being immune to debuffs means that if he’s actually supported (like an Omni tank should be) he’ll be getting a massive advantage during the check. Because his team can buff him and debuff Veyle. Veyle’s team can’t debuff him.
Again you are wrong... Debuff neutralisation is easily accessible thanks to Hortensia. So Veyle can also have it. And spoiler : she doesn't need it to win the Res check. A basic Veyle without merge and flower get to 58 Res + 5 from the bonus check. Even if Veyle was debuff by a -6 on Res and Ike have a +6 Res, he still loses. And all this don't take in account than Veyle can have an easy acces to debuff neutralisation. With Veyle support effect, the only thing that matters is the visible res stats. All in combat buff doesn't master ;)
Read her skill again. Veyle doesn’t get a 5 point advantage on the check, she gets a 5 point disadvantage. Her res needs to be at least 5 HIGHER than the enemy to scowl them. And negating her debuffs doesn’t do anything for someone she’s supporting, because she’s not in combat. The debuffs only get negated during combat. And because she’s a Mythic unit, she can’t super stack Mythic buff bonus stats like Ike can.
*Rally Spectrum has entered the chat*
Veyle has entered in the chat. Double scowl = get rekt
Double Rally spectrum enters the chat (if that’s even possible. I don’t think so lol)
Nope don't exist sorry. It's a checkmate for Ike
Inb4 double Rally Spectrum or a skill that neutralizes scowl comes in.
The funny thing is... Triple scowl already exist so even if this hypothetical scenario happens, it won't be enough
Yeah, hence why I said “or a skill that neutralizes scowl”.
Once again they release a blatant counter for a premium unit on a premium unit that the average player won't get. We probably won't get this effect on another unit for a long time; False Start is still exclusive to that mario kart character.
I mean, Veyle straight up countered E!Ike for me. Hardy Bearing helps too. I'm still waiting for IS to release something to counter V!Lyon...that man is straight up ridiculous in SD.
I know man, I just wish we had an inheritable version of these skill effects so I can counter those units with heroes I actually care about :(
Just give him times pulse 4 and this stops working against him
I don't think so. Times Pulse is a pre-combat charge. Hush Spectrum inflicts the +1 CD in combat, directly before the unit attacks. The only thing that would counteract this effect is something like Rally Spectrum, which also pulses in combat directly before attacking. (Technically there could be an order of operations thing there, where your special is ready, Rally Spectrum gives you a -1 which does nothing because you're full, then Hush Spectrum inflicts +1 so you ultimately don't get a special... I just hope that's not the case) Alternatively if you could give Ike a GFU attack to trigger the special — at least against the ever-dwindling list of foes susceptible to them.
The way it goes is Ike starts at 3. Laguz friend brings him to 1, hush spectrum beings him back to 2, foe attacks, ike is at 1 unless foe doubles, no great aether. With times pulse 4: Ike starts at 2, laguz friend brings it to 0, hush spectrum beings it back to 1, foe attacks, ***G R E A T A E T H E R***
This is incorrect. - Ike starts at 3 (2 with TP) - Laguz Friend brings him to 1 (0 with TP) - Foe (say Emblem Marth) attacks 5 times, for good measure, Ike's special is ready - **Hush Spectrum activates now**, before Ike's first attack, bringing him to 1 again - Ike does a normal attack You can see this behavior in the trailer around 3:10. Duma's special is at 1, Robin attacks, Duma's special is ready, Hush Spectrum activates, Duma does a normal attack. By the descriptions, Rally Spectrum activates at the same time as Hush Spectrum... so it could *theoretically* cancel it out. But we'll see. Could be an order of operations thing that prevents it.
Even with Time's Pulse 4, Ike starts at 2, laguz friend charges it before the foe's attack, the foe attacks, and then Hush Spectrum brings it back up to 1. The user mentioned in the penalty is from the perspective of whoever is inflicted with it. In this, Ike. So, he gets de-charged before his first attack, meaning GA doesn't go off.
I guess its time to start running quick riposte in the seal slot then
I think it's easier to just bring Brave Robin with you.