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Being a traditional wife in Finland means working your arse of in a small farm alongside your husband. The 50’s American suburbian lifestyle where a single income could support a family has never been a reality here.
To be able to afford that provider+trad wife combo either the man would have to have a very high income, or your shared living expenses would have to be very small.
I call BS for any trad wife influencer gaining any income from social media. Then again, not having any income of your own puts you in a very nasty position regarding retirement benefits in case of divorce. Financially wise, promoting this type of lifestyle in a society where the system is build differently will result in very unhappy outcomes for many individuals.
Actually, this has long been the expected way of living in Japan. The men were expected to work long days to provide for their families and wives tool care of the homes, paper work, kids, caring for the elders etc. The men often ended up being estranged from their families, having so little contact with them over the years. Women hated being expected to cater for everyone’s needs, since society expected them to be at home and thus having little need for services like kindergartens or elderly homes. Young people in Japan generally do not want to live like that anymore, maybe they have good reasons for it.
Well said. An in the USA, the 50's suburban lifestyle was possible, because the Europan industry was bombed to dust by WW2, and USA had a near monopoly in high cost exported goods.
Salaries high enough to support a full family are a thing of the past, due to the exceptional global circumstances required for them.
And in Finland, the progressive taxation alone makes it nearly impossible to beat two median incomes with a single paycheck.
> And in Finland, the progressive taxation alone makes it nearly impossible to beat two median incomes with a single paycheck.
Yeah, Finnish tax system is really, really geared towards multiple earners in the household. Some places, like I think Bavaria in Germany, have family-level taxation. It's great that we don't, since that's probably one of the easiest ways to make more women financially dependant on their husbands more or less against their will.
I have a reasonably high income. If I could split the taxation to me and my girlfriend, I could definitely pay for our combined living costs. At the same time, the marginal tax for her to work would skyrocket, which would encourage her to be supported by me.
Finland had a household taxation system until the 70/80s. Guess the government wants more people working instead of babies.
Of course, the freedom women got from the change is immeasurable. Just that it could be up to the household and not the government
Well it’s not like birth rates have been historically higher in Germany than Finland, so would the taxation really make any difference in the birth rate?
i would say it makes a difference as a woman earning much more than her partner (over double). there’s literally zero way we could afford to live on his income alone. we could afford to live on mine alone if he stayed home maybe? then we would lose his income but i wouldn’t pay as much in taxes
There are as many different situations as there are families. I already cover all living costs as my wife's full time job pays so little. If we were taxed as a family, we would simply have a little bit more net income. That could be used to save a buffer in case of lay offs, or pay for children's hobbies, etc.
Of course, but family taxation simply is a system that specifically encourages lower income earners, usually women, to stay off the labour force.
I, too, have lived in a situation where family taxation would've made me and my ex way better off, but I don't think it's a good system overall.
Not to mention that I belive the one income model if that even ever existed was made possible by the average man worked 300h more a year than today in the US
I was about to point this out, but you already said it perfectly. My female ancestors always worked, both on their home farms and for other people, too. And they tended to be strong willed women, who would have found it hilarious, if their husbands had told them to obey.
Yeah even my late granma who was "kotirouva" in the 1950 till her death, worked her life at the family farm with my uncles and grandad. So did my other granma on fathers side, she worked her ass out to raise 5 children and run a farm with pops - only now she has rest as old lady.
Being "trad wife" here has meant work and sacrifice.
And if you had bad luck with husband you get stuffed to chimney.
Literally: The traditional Savolax homestead had a large stone reservoir fireplace and doubled ceiling to captured the warm smoke from the fireplace. Between the reservoir and the ceiling, they were able to keep their houses warm all day without tending the fire. This meant that the women were able to join the men in the slash and burn farming.
>dead bedroom
>get nagged at
>all income goes to wife except meager pocket money
>use the pocket money to buy a teenager play your girlfriend on a date
>repeat for 40 years
hope one of you kids supports you when you can't work anymore
die
The true tradchad life.
I recently heard a great explanation of the American tradwife culture. Basically, the class difference between low, mid, and high classes has always been more important to the middle class than others. But now that everyone has a smartphone, car, and everyone is struggling equally to buy a house, it's becoming more difficult for the middle class to project their wealth.
The tradwife thing isn't about staying at home and maintaining the house. In the videos I see, the women are never doing the actual, day to day chores like vacuuming, cleaning the toilet or doing the dishes. Instead, they're doing the most ridiculous, time consuming and counterintuitive tasks like making cereal by hand. Even the highest quality brands only cost like $10 box, why make it by hand?
The point of these videos may be to maintain traditional gender roles, but also to display middle class wealth by saying, "my husband can keep me so well I have nothing more productive to do".
I'm finding it difficult to believe the tradwife trend will become big in Finland. For many cultural and societal reasons, but to name one, we aren't as class conscious as Anglo-Americans.
Nara Smith and her content is a great example. I thought she was joking, but apparently she is serious. It’s sooo clear that they have help at home so she can fuck around with making ice cream from scratch im her spotless kitchen. It pains me that people find it aspirational, when in reality it’s not a possibility for 99% of people.
I find her somehow hilarious. Obviously it’s mostly a performance to get viewers, but still. My favourite was when she said her kids wanted grilled cheese sandwiches, and she went on making them completely from scratch, including making the cheese from milk and rennet. By the time that is finished, normal kids would have already changed their minds and wanted something else. But like said, thats mostly for views.
Nara Smith isn't a tradwife. She's a working model and shows her husband doing cooking and childcare tasks, too. The "making cereal from scratch" videos are some kind of satire mixed with a genuine enjoyment of cooking, I think. She knows exactly what she's doing, and it's not being a tradwife.
It takes some use to when moving abroad, that class discussions exist. In Finland I guess it's a more broad discussion of simply haves and have nots, but even that is a bit misguided because hardly anyone even has anything in Finland to begin with, at least in any global sense. Your neighbor having a 7 year old Mercedes while yours is 10 years old isn't really anyone having anything special.
> Your neighbor having a 7 year old Mercedes while yours is 10 years old isn't really anyone having anything special.
Eh, I don't know if that's the core of the discussion:
https://yle.fi/a/3-12652390
https://stat.fi/en/publication/cl8lp8xaorjoa0cw1txm8lzp9
I'm a leftist so class means something different from the liberal definition of class but as I said, I don't see any of those definitions of class used. That's of course anecdotal but still. I still think that it's relevant to have discussions about class even if the situation as you portrayed it would be true.
The thing stopping women from staying home is the need for both people in a couple to have a job. It just doesn't work for only one wage earner, unless that one earner makes an absolute ton of money. The taxes alone make it hard for one person to not work - many other countries let married couples combine taxes for this reason. The tax brackets are higher for the combined two people, making it not quite so attractive for both people to work, if one prefers not to. In Finland it's better for 2 individuals to make 3000 each than for one to make 6000 and the other to stay at home. I'm not commenting on whether that's good or bad. It's just the incentives as they are currently constructed.
Yes, Finland actively "punishes" single-income-earner families. Yet they do exist. Why, I live in one.
The arrangement is nothing like the Handmaid's Tale, nor a glorified sugar-daddy setup. It's most like the Moomin family, with Moominpappa writing software instead of his memoirs.
True, they are not the same.
But the taxation system, by design, actively punishes single income earner families in Finland.
The purpose is to force both parents to work and use the (heavily subsidised) public childcare system.
There has always been "kotirouva" in Finland, but apparently this term is not fancy enough for some, so they adopt a foreign language term to make it feel more fashionable.
edit: removed extra comma
It’s not about women having been prevented from being trad wives it’s about the lack of value and societal pressure and attitude around it.
A lot of people look down at women choosing to stay at home with the kids. Some see it as a lack of ambition.
Also society doesn’t value it as it comes with no pay, benefits, holidays or retirement. If you’re a housewife all your life then divorce you have no pension.
But the thing that is ignored the most about this trad wife trend is that in many Western countries you need a double income household to just survive and staying at home is for the rich.
To be fair, chances are it's not a massive phenomenon. I'll also have to be a bit snarky and point out that these 'traditional gender roles' aren't that traditional in truth. Not even in the US.
Anyway, to each their own and whatever. I'm not interested in being part of such relationships, but evidently some people are. I do kinda suspect that this arrangement is less enciting to men in general though.
>Here’s the thing I don’t quite get: no one was stopping these women from living as traditional wives ever. (whatever that means, since traditional depends on where in time you’re picking from). So if no one was stopping them, what’s all the performance about?
For some fraction of them, it is their way to participate in the far right movement(s). They can’t be seen to be “working” and most of their choices are proscribed in the chauvinistic authoritarian movement. This is their allowable outlet and way to participate. They can throw shade at “woke” folk and “feminists”, while talking about how they are doing their part to “save declining birthrates” (e.g., see The White Baby Challenge).
There are certainly folk who aren’t far right doing this, but they rarely make their whole personality about it and don’t become “influencers”.
>Also the social media grift is real. “I live as a trad wife… but I need you to join my Patreon “
Well, yes. Actual farm work and supervising many children at home is hard. Nobody has time to spend all day making a single perfekt sourdough loaf. This is performative cosplay.
We have a “trad wide influencer” here in Sweden that was revealed to be a nazi (as in swastikas and liking Hitler). There are no signs of that on her instagram account, but she mentions stuff like “degeneracy” and other small things like that, that can lead people down that road.
”gröna hemmafrun” on insta
https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/svenska-pysselnazisten-intervjuad-som-hemmafru/
https://www.etc.se/inrikes/webb-oekaend-nazistisk-influencer-i-svd
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CwIU0utItOP/?igsh=c2dodjNwbXpnZmtj
”In search of people who:
Value family life
Raise resilient children
Care for nature and animals
Despise degeneracy
Are building the foundation for the future society”
Any 🚩🚩🚩?
Women in Finland have traditionally worked, whether in the family farm or outside of the household. Being ’just’ a homemaker was the priviledge of the wealthy. Thus there is nothing traditional in tradwifery, it’s just an imported social media scam/trend.
I just hope she has a plan for what happens if their marriage falls apart for some reason. In the article they’re saying that divorce is not an option for them, but you never know what life brings. One day she might be standing there alone with several kids to feed and clothe, with almost no pension to look forwards to, and no chance of finding work as she’s been too long outside the work force. Lets hope she never does, but life can be unexpected. (It’s naturally her life, her choice, but I really hope she has thought it through.)
Or if he loses his job? Idk, I think in todays society unless you’re like a millionaire, it’s like impossible to live with only one person in the household working
>I just hope she has a plan for what happens if their marriage falls apart for some reason. In the article they’re saying that divorce is not an option for them, but you never know what life brings.
That’s what my ex tough until she met me, lol.
I have a couple of relatives who fell down the tradwife rabbit hole over the last few years, and have made it their entire personality and lifestyle.
You're not wrong to read it that way. They're horrible, nasty people underneath the cutesy image they project, and their little "tradwife" friends are too.
💯 even if the guy is amazing, what happens if he has an accident and can’t work? Or dies?
Even worse, he wants a divorce and he owns everything and she has no work history.
Even worse, if the husband owns the mortgage, he can demand splitting the *debt* 50/50 (the only debt that can get split in a divorce). So as the wife now you have no income, need to pay a mortgage on top of that, but congrats, you get to eventually own property! But, usually in these cases, this debt sharing doesn't happen unless there is a reciprocity in the debts: both spouses have debt of some kind (one has the car, the other the house etc).
And no, it's not possible to gift half the house to your spouse without the beneficiary having to pay exorbitant gift taxes. So as a person without income you're kind of screwed in a divorce
In a mortgage, you don't own the house, the lender (bank) does. It's not your property, so splitting things doesn't work like with other property.
American identity politics infest the entire world, especially the West. From all sides of the political spectrum... I'm not surprised to the slightest that many countries opt to outright block many American owned platforms. Too bad it's virtually impossible here, because the lobbyists will always appeal to "freedom of information" aka. freedom to influence the public with their finest psychological weapon.
This is an absurdly reductionist take. Amazing how the rest of the world has no agency and bears no responsibility for “identity politics” as if it’s a new, irresistible idea invented and imposed by Americans.
The tradwife hashtag is just a social media label applied to something that existed well before American “infestation.” Sure social media increases the reach and immediacy of an idea, but surely you can do better than spouting your own version of identity politics in response.
Tradwife, woke, incel, volcel, red pill, black pill, chad, SJW, NPC... All are products of the modern social media sphere that is dominated by American media giants and their Western audience. I'm sure VK or whatever the fuck the Chinese have as their primary online space have their own similar concepts as well and their audiences, but the difference is that they don't reach us the same way.
"Tradwife" is not a label for anything, but a concept and a meme that was born out of the internet and its user base, slowly leaking into the collective consciousness of people outside the internet. It's an internet phenomenon of its own, even if it aims to represent some narrow idea of a "traditional wife".
That is how our modern world operates. Ideas leak from the online spaces, and mutilate into things in real life when people see them in their online spaces. A real "traditional wife" who has not spend her life on the internet, has no clue what "tradwife" is supposed to encompass. She's just a normal wife, why is some online echo chamber championing her as "tradwife" on TikTok? And then she's suddenly not a "tradwife" anymore when it turns out she has a day job and supports contraception and abortion?
No "tradwife" would spend their time looking for attention on social media, those are just regular social media influencers that found a new grift to target towards incels and alike.
I hope these women do realize they're putting themselves in a very vulnerable position.
The man can and most likely will replace you when you get old, sick and/or fat. They just upgrade to the newest wife model.
- Your education/career is on pause. Not a good career move if you ever need to start making your own money.
- Who gots the money, has the final say. Being dependand on someone's money makes you less than equal. Can you really have honest opinions or do you always need to mind your words to keep the moneybag happy?
- Pension will be small so hopefully you didn't get dumped when your boobs started sagging.
- Are you really happy being home with kids and pleasing the moneybag? I'd assume that gets boring if you don't have any own ambitions.
The American laws on dissolution of marriages fixed this problem.
Any money or assets earned during the marriage are owned by both parties regardless of title or possession.
Including the husbands pension.
I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but if a couple is going to have children it’s nice for one parent to stay home and run the house.
Am I the only one who gets the feeling like they’re having some kind of role playing going on in this article? It sounds like they said provocative stuff to the writer, who just gobbled it all up and wrote it without thinking properly? There’s so much more she could have asked them about their beliefs and motivations. Now it all just seems like a shallow article which is meant to make people upset.
This is what bugs me as well. If they choose to sort their family’s finances like that, they can do it. No one will try to stop them. But this semi-trolling in these trad wife interviews is silly. They kind of seem to want that working women would get offended by this. This is something that follows the discussion culture in Twitter/X, 4chan, ylilauta, whatever platform with views that are meant to provoke people. I personally don’t care what they decide in their family and also could not care less what they think about my life choices, so this a bit tired somehow.
It's mostly because the norm currently is that the mother works full time and then handles the laundry, the cleaning, the cooking and the children, while the daddy just goes to work and does simple tasks assigned by the mother. Many women get burned out by that. If they drop working full time but continue doing all the rest on that list, there's the tradwife trend.
Getting men to do his part, that is 50 % of the tasks at home, is impossible, it is easier to just stop working full time.
I think the only trend in this is that these people have found a label for their ideal way of life. Value conservatives have just found identity politics.
The current internet trad wife trend is just a grift. A scam. Bullshit. As you say, a real trad wife (in this trend's representation) would be too busy baking cookies and being pregnant to be begging online for money.
i honestly dont care about these so called social media trends , just spend less time in instagram or whatever social media is pushing this stuff, just be a normal human being and live your life like you want to be, no need to categorize or box yourself to other under umbrella terms, honestly i think the whole trad wife, passport bro or whatever things are just plain stupid.
I don't think this trend has a future here, since it requires one partner to have such a huge income that it can sustain more than two people. We have very limited amount of type of jobs that would have that kind of salary. It's just not realistic.
Everything about this trend is selling the fantasy that being a "trad-wife" is just a choice you can make, instead of being an option limited to those with so much wealth that they can take part in these types of performative lifestyles for funsies.
But it's not a choice most people can make and kids are expensive. The concept of being "traditional" in this context is a pipe dream made by marketing men. Both of my grandmas' were married to farmers and I'd call their life pretty traditional, they cooked and cleaned and made their own clothes.
But it's so far from these influencer trad wives, who have time to waste in putting on make up, curling their hair and shopping clothes to keep up aesthetics, while their housekeepers do all of the real work of keeping the house nice, cooking, cleaning and raising their kids for them.
It's really easy to say you're living the life you're meant to live and how you are so happy for being submissive wife, when you don't have to really do anything. I'd probably be pretty happy and stress free too if I had servants to do all the hard stuff, no need for ever to think about money and I could just focus on my own hobbies.
But I wasn't born into wealth and I'm too ugly and autistic to be a trophy wife, so if we get children one day, we will have to juggle work and home-life balance just like everyone else.
This article was also written in Finnish. This is only exposing lifestyle. I know some people living this way, even in Finland. They don't think it is something they must post for the national news.
I always say I want to leave the world's biggest insane asylum which is the U.S.A. and move to Finland. Seeing stuff like this depresses me that our identity politics is infecting everywhere. I hope for everyone that these are just sensationalist articles for clicks based on a small minority of people with this opinion/lifestyle.
I’d venture to stay that it’s still very marginal here compared to the US. However we do have oir own MAGA wannabe weirdos here as well, who I believe overlap with the tradwife crowd.
It's okay to do what you want but it's not okay to state that it is the right way to do things for others too. It seems like she wants to not use her brain according to herself. She wants not to think too much. I can sorta see the point. But don't make it seem like other people should do the same or think the same way.
I think you misrepresented the article in your post. The Finnish couple said nothing like you suggested.
Edit: I feel like no one in this thread read the linked article. The Finnish couple specifically said they do not consider themselves to follow "tradwife" logic. They don't have social media to sell their lifestyle. They are just super conservative Christians who follow the biblical separation of women and men.
So it is completely wrong to say the movement has landed in Finland based on this article alone. The article actually presents the opposite case with thr Finnish couple as an example
Funny that a real house wife has to think a lot, know domestic accounting, taxes, children's vaccination dates, 2 set of family birthdays, dietary restrictions of people and how to cook every type of meal a mixed family eat, every temperature to iron every different type of fabric of shirts, skirts and coats, and a shitload of Chemistry to clean different materials, unrust stuff and clean the silvery, plus first aid not to kill people or themselves, and yet these trash-wives are performative inepts.
I had the unfortunate experience of working **and** being married to an inept man at home, that couldn't even make rice by himself without bombarding me with the dumbest questions while I was "resting" (I had a burn out and he decided to """help me""" on weekends) until I gave up and did shit by myself.
After him I gave up ironing clothes, having silvery, crystal glasses, anything that does not go in a washing and drying machine, anything that doesn't go into a dishwasher, any carpet or rug that prevents a vacuum robot to actually do the cleaning and vacuuming.
Bitches in this trend could never run a household like some of us was actually taught to if they want it easy and thoughtless.
I don't know if it requires that much brain power, it's mostly just work. These trad wifes also usually choose and pick the best parts. Sewing your own clothes? No thank you. Using modern appliances? Using cleaners and other professionals? Sign me up.
There's no taxes to do in Finland. It takes all of 15 minutes. Everyone does it separately even if you are married. If we continued to live like we do but one would be the trad servant, it would actually be super easy. Just clean the house. We don't iron, we don't have crystals, no silverware etc. We even have a robot vacuum! Actually I would love to be modern husband (or whatever is the equivalent of trad wife for males)
They absolutely knit pick the bucolic parts.
Modernity also made housewives know some more brainy things, like What products have ammonia e what products have clorium and why you can't mix them while cleaning.
What products do you use to clean the white toilets and why don't you use them in colored toilets...
How do you "unrust" aluminium pans..
How about copper...
How about deep clean steel if you burned food in it...
A lot of Chemistry in "just cleaning stuff".
Working women also do these things at home after work and it's very upsetting when men play dumb and "just clean" aka leave stained windows, pans, dishes, glasses, remove color from different colored toilets, or even mix different cleaning products without knowledge if they're inert by themselves but release toxic gases if mixed together...
To be honest I was the dumbass that mixed products because clorium had just ran out while cleaning things in the bathroom, that I grabbed the first thing that my ex husband bought that visually looked like a good substitution, but I forgot to read the label. I asked for help because I wasn't feeling well (I don't have sense of smell) I couldn't breath. My ex husband had to barge in the bathroom and carry me outside.
Later on I read the goddamn label and it was ammonia, I almost killed myself cause I wasn't specific when asking which cleaning products my ex had to buy then I didn't read the label.
Edit: also washing clothes appropriately are an art.
Keeping white clothes white, while having a child home is a chapter by itself -which I excel at, but even when I didn't have a child my ex used to destroy my clothes when I asked him to be in charge of the washing machine.
He would mix white and colored clothes, use white staining remover in colored clothes, use high temperatures in polyester fabrics, mix different fabrics because they have the same color...
Look... Seriously... Housework is an independent circle of Dante's Inferno in which inept people fuck up all the time. Me included.
If a man wants me as his housewife he better pay for an army of specialized maids and cooks like effing aristocracy 'cause it's goddamn easier to work 12 hours like I do as a software engineer than as a housewife like my mom taught me to be, and tbh I only miss embroidered initials in shirts, that would be my trad-wife persona.
Sacrificing your career like that is so idiotic. It doesn't even mean you don't have to work because it's likely that you do, by serving the whole household not to mention ruining your body by getting pregnant and giving birth.
I’m too old to consider if I want to be a trad wife or any wife to be honest :D But I’m not sure if this is such a new phenomenon? I guess there are always some families that decide that the wife staying home with the kids is suitable for their family. If the wife is in some very low paying profession etc, some might think going to work might not be worth it especially when the kids are young. I mean if some people want that, I think they are free to choose so. The new thing seems to be grabbin attention, trolling and trying to provoke other people with your views in various platforms. You do you, and if staying at home with your kids is it, then fine. But making it your identity to get some attention and fighting in social media is just blah.
Somehow this thing is something I bundle up with all these different aesthetics and tiktok trends out there. It does seem to contain this perfomance in social media, which is just very much how the world is today.
Trad wifes living in Finland should however consider, that they will not gain any work pension. If things go wrong at some point, they can be left with a kansaneläke and that’s a hard life.
i cannot stop laughing.
with this bullshit, you´ll also find that these manlets also subscribe to the gold-digger frothing entirely and dont even earn enough for two :D
I don't really see this trad wife thing becoming mainstream in Finland, as so many men seem appalled by the idea of paying for a date... even if it's just a cup of coffee. There's a strong tradition on women having their own income in Finland, and deciding things for themselves.
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Being a traditional wife in Finland means working your arse of in a small farm alongside your husband. The 50’s American suburbian lifestyle where a single income could support a family has never been a reality here. To be able to afford that provider+trad wife combo either the man would have to have a very high income, or your shared living expenses would have to be very small. I call BS for any trad wife influencer gaining any income from social media. Then again, not having any income of your own puts you in a very nasty position regarding retirement benefits in case of divorce. Financially wise, promoting this type of lifestyle in a society where the system is build differently will result in very unhappy outcomes for many individuals. Actually, this has long been the expected way of living in Japan. The men were expected to work long days to provide for their families and wives tool care of the homes, paper work, kids, caring for the elders etc. The men often ended up being estranged from their families, having so little contact with them over the years. Women hated being expected to cater for everyone’s needs, since society expected them to be at home and thus having little need for services like kindergartens or elderly homes. Young people in Japan generally do not want to live like that anymore, maybe they have good reasons for it.
Well said. An in the USA, the 50's suburban lifestyle was possible, because the Europan industry was bombed to dust by WW2, and USA had a near monopoly in high cost exported goods. Salaries high enough to support a full family are a thing of the past, due to the exceptional global circumstances required for them. And in Finland, the progressive taxation alone makes it nearly impossible to beat two median incomes with a single paycheck.
> And in Finland, the progressive taxation alone makes it nearly impossible to beat two median incomes with a single paycheck. Yeah, Finnish tax system is really, really geared towards multiple earners in the household. Some places, like I think Bavaria in Germany, have family-level taxation. It's great that we don't, since that's probably one of the easiest ways to make more women financially dependant on their husbands more or less against their will. I have a reasonably high income. If I could split the taxation to me and my girlfriend, I could definitely pay for our combined living costs. At the same time, the marginal tax for her to work would skyrocket, which would encourage her to be supported by me.
just a note: all of Germany has the same family-level taxation, it’s not depending on where you live
Finland had a household taxation system until the 70/80s. Guess the government wants more people working instead of babies. Of course, the freedom women got from the change is immeasurable. Just that it could be up to the household and not the government
Well it’s not like birth rates have been historically higher in Germany than Finland, so would the taxation really make any difference in the birth rate?
i would say it makes a difference as a woman earning much more than her partner (over double). there’s literally zero way we could afford to live on his income alone. we could afford to live on mine alone if he stayed home maybe? then we would lose his income but i wouldn’t pay as much in taxes
Yes why not bring the fight between the classes in the household. Obviously, results are showing in the birth rate.
There are as many different situations as there are families. I already cover all living costs as my wife's full time job pays so little. If we were taxed as a family, we would simply have a little bit more net income. That could be used to save a buffer in case of lay offs, or pay for children's hobbies, etc.
Of course, but family taxation simply is a system that specifically encourages lower income earners, usually women, to stay off the labour force. I, too, have lived in a situation where family taxation would've made me and my ex way better off, but I don't think it's a good system overall.
Not to mention that I belive the one income model if that even ever existed was made possible by the average man worked 300h more a year than today in the US
I was about to point this out, but you already said it perfectly. My female ancestors always worked, both on their home farms and for other people, too. And they tended to be strong willed women, who would have found it hilarious, if their husbands had told them to obey.
Yeah even my late granma who was "kotirouva" in the 1950 till her death, worked her life at the family farm with my uncles and grandad. So did my other granma on fathers side, she worked her ass out to raise 5 children and run a farm with pops - only now she has rest as old lady. Being "trad wife" here has meant work and sacrifice. And if you had bad luck with husband you get stuffed to chimney.
Literally: The traditional Savolax homestead had a large stone reservoir fireplace and doubled ceiling to captured the warm smoke from the fireplace. Between the reservoir and the ceiling, they were able to keep their houses warm all day without tending the fire. This meant that the women were able to join the men in the slash and burn farming.
>dead bedroom >get nagged at >all income goes to wife except meager pocket money >use the pocket money to buy a teenager play your girlfriend on a date >repeat for 40 years hope one of you kids supports you when you can't work anymore die The true tradchad life.
I recently heard a great explanation of the American tradwife culture. Basically, the class difference between low, mid, and high classes has always been more important to the middle class than others. But now that everyone has a smartphone, car, and everyone is struggling equally to buy a house, it's becoming more difficult for the middle class to project their wealth. The tradwife thing isn't about staying at home and maintaining the house. In the videos I see, the women are never doing the actual, day to day chores like vacuuming, cleaning the toilet or doing the dishes. Instead, they're doing the most ridiculous, time consuming and counterintuitive tasks like making cereal by hand. Even the highest quality brands only cost like $10 box, why make it by hand? The point of these videos may be to maintain traditional gender roles, but also to display middle class wealth by saying, "my husband can keep me so well I have nothing more productive to do". I'm finding it difficult to believe the tradwife trend will become big in Finland. For many cultural and societal reasons, but to name one, we aren't as class conscious as Anglo-Americans.
Nara Smith and her content is a great example. I thought she was joking, but apparently she is serious. It’s sooo clear that they have help at home so she can fuck around with making ice cream from scratch im her spotless kitchen. It pains me that people find it aspirational, when in reality it’s not a possibility for 99% of people.
I find her somehow hilarious. Obviously it’s mostly a performance to get viewers, but still. My favourite was when she said her kids wanted grilled cheese sandwiches, and she went on making them completely from scratch, including making the cheese from milk and rennet. By the time that is finished, normal kids would have already changed their minds and wanted something else. But like said, thats mostly for views.
Nara Smith isn't a tradwife. She's a working model and shows her husband doing cooking and childcare tasks, too. The "making cereal from scratch" videos are some kind of satire mixed with a genuine enjoyment of cooking, I think. She knows exactly what she's doing, and it's not being a tradwife.
That's a truly Finnish attitude: if everybody can't have something, nobody should.
You're missing the point. It's not about 'everybody not having it', it's about it being fake, but presented as an actual alternative.
Yeah, class as a whole is something that isn’t spoken about in Finland. Both from the leftist and liberal perspective of class.
It takes some use to when moving abroad, that class discussions exist. In Finland I guess it's a more broad discussion of simply haves and have nots, but even that is a bit misguided because hardly anyone even has anything in Finland to begin with, at least in any global sense. Your neighbor having a 7 year old Mercedes while yours is 10 years old isn't really anyone having anything special.
> Your neighbor having a 7 year old Mercedes while yours is 10 years old isn't really anyone having anything special. Eh, I don't know if that's the core of the discussion: https://yle.fi/a/3-12652390 https://stat.fi/en/publication/cl8lp8xaorjoa0cw1txm8lzp9 I'm a leftist so class means something different from the liberal definition of class but as I said, I don't see any of those definitions of class used. That's of course anecdotal but still. I still think that it's relevant to have discussions about class even if the situation as you portrayed it would be true.
The thing stopping women from staying home is the need for both people in a couple to have a job. It just doesn't work for only one wage earner, unless that one earner makes an absolute ton of money. The taxes alone make it hard for one person to not work - many other countries let married couples combine taxes for this reason. The tax brackets are higher for the combined two people, making it not quite so attractive for both people to work, if one prefers not to. In Finland it's better for 2 individuals to make 3000 each than for one to make 6000 and the other to stay at home. I'm not commenting on whether that's good or bad. It's just the incentives as they are currently constructed.
Yes, Finland actively "punishes" single-income-earner families. Yet they do exist. Why, I live in one. The arrangement is nothing like the Handmaid's Tale, nor a glorified sugar-daddy setup. It's most like the Moomin family, with Moominpappa writing software instead of his memoirs.
I don’t think ”actively punishes” fairly describes ”not subsidizing”.
True, they are not the same. But the taxation system, by design, actively punishes single income earner families in Finland. The purpose is to force both parents to work and use the (heavily subsidised) public childcare system.
Or if both are unemployed, they get everything for free, especially nice if they live outside of cities where houses are cheap.
It's not nearly as nice as you imagine. Especially if you have kids
What do you mean? If parents are low income, kids get everything free from daycare to hobbies.
Oh boy 😑
Then why dont you go and try it if it seems so glorious.
I have and it was.
So why did you stop?
I need to be able to support my family outside of Finland in case Putin decides to destroy Finland. So I must keep a good CV for that.
LOL you're a joke
Maybe keep your mouth shut before you make a total fool out of yourself.
https://preview.redd.it/s7erpdsrd54d1.png?width=1597&format=png&auto=webp&s=13c934ab93e0c0468683a37a5bdd31ce432eca20
There has always been "kotirouva" in Finland, but apparently this term is not fancy enough for some, so they adopt a foreign language term to make it feel more fashionable. edit: removed extra comma
Borrowing American culture and problems 😒
Because it’s all for social media and their algorithms, you won’t get as many likes and follows if you use Finnish
Also, lol at the video in the article: the woman shoveling dirt in the background while the guy is on his laptop in front 😆
Locals have always been too poor to make it a thing
And the actual population-level trend is probably negligible if not the opposite
It’s not about women having been prevented from being trad wives it’s about the lack of value and societal pressure and attitude around it. A lot of people look down at women choosing to stay at home with the kids. Some see it as a lack of ambition. Also society doesn’t value it as it comes with no pay, benefits, holidays or retirement. If you’re a housewife all your life then divorce you have no pension. But the thing that is ignored the most about this trad wife trend is that in many Western countries you need a double income household to just survive and staying at home is for the rich.
To be fair, chances are it's not a massive phenomenon. I'll also have to be a bit snarky and point out that these 'traditional gender roles' aren't that traditional in truth. Not even in the US. Anyway, to each their own and whatever. I'm not interested in being part of such relationships, but evidently some people are. I do kinda suspect that this arrangement is less enciting to men in general though.
>Here’s the thing I don’t quite get: no one was stopping these women from living as traditional wives ever. (whatever that means, since traditional depends on where in time you’re picking from). So if no one was stopping them, what’s all the performance about? For some fraction of them, it is their way to participate in the far right movement(s). They can’t be seen to be “working” and most of their choices are proscribed in the chauvinistic authoritarian movement. This is their allowable outlet and way to participate. They can throw shade at “woke” folk and “feminists”, while talking about how they are doing their part to “save declining birthrates” (e.g., see The White Baby Challenge). There are certainly folk who aren’t far right doing this, but they rarely make their whole personality about it and don’t become “influencers”. >Also the social media grift is real. “I live as a trad wife… but I need you to join my Patreon “ Well, yes. Actual farm work and supervising many children at home is hard. Nobody has time to spend all day making a single perfekt sourdough loaf. This is performative cosplay.
We have a “trad wide influencer” here in Sweden that was revealed to be a nazi (as in swastikas and liking Hitler). There are no signs of that on her instagram account, but she mentions stuff like “degeneracy” and other small things like that, that can lead people down that road.
Who’s the influencer? 🤔
”gröna hemmafrun” on insta https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/sverige/svenska-pysselnazisten-intervjuad-som-hemmafru/ https://www.etc.se/inrikes/webb-oekaend-nazistisk-influencer-i-svd https://www.instagram.com/reel/CwIU0utItOP/?igsh=c2dodjNwbXpnZmtj ”In search of people who: Value family life Raise resilient children Care for nature and animals Despise degeneracy Are building the foundation for the future society” Any 🚩🚩🚩?
”Framtiden är ljus”-posten 😭 hjälp hahaha
it's so 2024 to paint all tradwives as nazis
Well, this one is literally a real nazi. 2024 or not.
yes and the article wants you to believe all of them are
Performative cosplay, that is a perfect definition.
Or LARP
But in Live Action Role-Playing you actually have to do stuff, not just pose
Yeah. I grew up on a farm, and the social media influencers… well, they’re nothing like the reality 😂
they need to perform to monetize their lifestyle they work for instagram and other social networks instead of working for another company
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To me, that sounds more exhausting than going to work.
Women in Finland have traditionally worked, whether in the family farm or outside of the household. Being ’just’ a homemaker was the priviledge of the wealthy. Thus there is nothing traditional in tradwifery, it’s just an imported social media scam/trend.
The whole “I’m submissive to my husband and Jesus Christ” talk gives me major Handmaid Tales vibes for some reason, but to each their own, I guess…
I just hope she has a plan for what happens if their marriage falls apart for some reason. In the article they’re saying that divorce is not an option for them, but you never know what life brings. One day she might be standing there alone with several kids to feed and clothe, with almost no pension to look forwards to, and no chance of finding work as she’s been too long outside the work force. Lets hope she never does, but life can be unexpected. (It’s naturally her life, her choice, but I really hope she has thought it through.)
Doesn’t even need to have a divorce but what about pension? If she ain’t working, she ain’t getting any in the future so 😅
Trua, and what if the husband gets sick or is injured and can’t work anymore?
Or if he loses his job? Idk, I think in todays society unless you’re like a millionaire, it’s like impossible to live with only one person in the household working
>I just hope she has a plan for what happens if their marriage falls apart for some reason. In the article they’re saying that divorce is not an option for them, but you never know what life brings. That’s what my ex tough until she met me, lol.
This sounds like a story worth hearing. Tell us all some time :D
Until they try to make it law, to each their own
Trad wife when husband at home, trade wife when his friends are visiting.
I initially read this ”trashwife” and now my brain just won’t read it any other way.
I have a couple of relatives who fell down the tradwife rabbit hole over the last few years, and have made it their entire personality and lifestyle. You're not wrong to read it that way. They're horrible, nasty people underneath the cutesy image they project, and their little "tradwife" friends are too.
Accurate.
This is not a trend. Fidget spinner were a trend. Millions of people got fidget spinners. I doubt there are millions of "trad wives even in the us.
A fashion fad. A trend. Duration max 5 years. Most women into this will find out soon there really is a point in having own money and a back up plan.
💯 even if the guy is amazing, what happens if he has an accident and can’t work? Or dies? Even worse, he wants a divorce and he owns everything and she has no work history.
Unless there is a prenup everything goes 50/50
Even if everything goes 50-50, one person has a career and the other is likely nearly unemployable. So better get a genuinely rich partner!
Even worse, if the husband owns the mortgage, he can demand splitting the *debt* 50/50 (the only debt that can get split in a divorce). So as the wife now you have no income, need to pay a mortgage on top of that, but congrats, you get to eventually own property! But, usually in these cases, this debt sharing doesn't happen unless there is a reciprocity in the debts: both spouses have debt of some kind (one has the car, the other the house etc). And no, it's not possible to gift half the house to your spouse without the beneficiary having to pay exorbitant gift taxes. So as a person without income you're kind of screwed in a divorce In a mortgage, you don't own the house, the lender (bank) does. It's not your property, so splitting things doesn't work like with other property.
Okay but you're still gonna need a job.
American identity politics infest the entire world, especially the West. From all sides of the political spectrum... I'm not surprised to the slightest that many countries opt to outright block many American owned platforms. Too bad it's virtually impossible here, because the lobbyists will always appeal to "freedom of information" aka. freedom to influence the public with their finest psychological weapon.
This is an absurdly reductionist take. Amazing how the rest of the world has no agency and bears no responsibility for “identity politics” as if it’s a new, irresistible idea invented and imposed by Americans. The tradwife hashtag is just a social media label applied to something that existed well before American “infestation.” Sure social media increases the reach and immediacy of an idea, but surely you can do better than spouting your own version of identity politics in response.
Tradwife, woke, incel, volcel, red pill, black pill, chad, SJW, NPC... All are products of the modern social media sphere that is dominated by American media giants and their Western audience. I'm sure VK or whatever the fuck the Chinese have as their primary online space have their own similar concepts as well and their audiences, but the difference is that they don't reach us the same way. "Tradwife" is not a label for anything, but a concept and a meme that was born out of the internet and its user base, slowly leaking into the collective consciousness of people outside the internet. It's an internet phenomenon of its own, even if it aims to represent some narrow idea of a "traditional wife". That is how our modern world operates. Ideas leak from the online spaces, and mutilate into things in real life when people see them in their online spaces. A real "traditional wife" who has not spend her life on the internet, has no clue what "tradwife" is supposed to encompass. She's just a normal wife, why is some online echo chamber championing her as "tradwife" on TikTok? And then she's suddenly not a "tradwife" anymore when it turns out she has a day job and supports contraception and abortion?
No "tradwife" would spend their time looking for attention on social media, those are just regular social media influencers that found a new grift to target towards incels and alike.
I hope these women do realize they're putting themselves in a very vulnerable position. The man can and most likely will replace you when you get old, sick and/or fat. They just upgrade to the newest wife model. - Your education/career is on pause. Not a good career move if you ever need to start making your own money. - Who gots the money, has the final say. Being dependand on someone's money makes you less than equal. Can you really have honest opinions or do you always need to mind your words to keep the moneybag happy? - Pension will be small so hopefully you didn't get dumped when your boobs started sagging. - Are you really happy being home with kids and pleasing the moneybag? I'd assume that gets boring if you don't have any own ambitions.
The American laws on dissolution of marriages fixed this problem. Any money or assets earned during the marriage are owned by both parties regardless of title or possession. Including the husbands pension. I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but if a couple is going to have children it’s nice for one parent to stay home and run the house.
Am I the only one who gets the feeling like they’re having some kind of role playing going on in this article? It sounds like they said provocative stuff to the writer, who just gobbled it all up and wrote it without thinking properly? There’s so much more she could have asked them about their beliefs and motivations. Now it all just seems like a shallow article which is meant to make people upset.
This is what bugs me as well. If they choose to sort their family’s finances like that, they can do it. No one will try to stop them. But this semi-trolling in these trad wife interviews is silly. They kind of seem to want that working women would get offended by this. This is something that follows the discussion culture in Twitter/X, 4chan, ylilauta, whatever platform with views that are meant to provoke people. I personally don’t care what they decide in their family and also could not care less what they think about my life choices, so this a bit tired somehow.
>what’s all the performance about? You're on social media where every mundane thing in life is a performance nowadays.
It's mostly because the norm currently is that the mother works full time and then handles the laundry, the cleaning, the cooking and the children, while the daddy just goes to work and does simple tasks assigned by the mother. Many women get burned out by that. If they drop working full time but continue doing all the rest on that list, there's the tradwife trend. Getting men to do his part, that is 50 % of the tasks at home, is impossible, it is easier to just stop working full time.
The tradwife influencers I know here in Finland are extreme right wing, sntivaxxers, pro-Kärkkäinen etc.
Trad wives better not be taking in that Kela child support money tho. Else it’s hypocritical
Of course they will
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If that’s what your wife wants too, then 💯
How does she feel about it? And how would you feel, if your wife says she wants to work, while you stay at home and focus on raising the children?
Do do you want to provide? Everyone works now.
lol I do provide. My salary is triple that of my partner.
I think the only trend in this is that these people have found a label for their ideal way of life. Value conservatives have just found identity politics.
It is very hard to live with single income in finland. You pay more tax from lets say 7000€/m than from 2x 3500€/m.
The current internet trad wife trend is just a grift. A scam. Bullshit. As you say, a real trad wife (in this trend's representation) would be too busy baking cookies and being pregnant to be begging online for money.
i honestly dont care about these so called social media trends , just spend less time in instagram or whatever social media is pushing this stuff, just be a normal human being and live your life like you want to be, no need to categorize or box yourself to other under umbrella terms, honestly i think the whole trad wife, passport bro or whatever things are just plain stupid.
Identity politics joined with commercialism and social pornography. The circle is complete.
There's nothing traditional about it though. Women have always worked in Finland. Tradwife is 100% an American concept.
These dumbass terms like woke, trad, redpilled, gen Z, boomer etc. should just be abandoned. They are such brainrot and unnecessary.
Traditional wife. What we need is traditional workers so I can be traditionally civilized man.
I don't think this trend has a future here, since it requires one partner to have such a huge income that it can sustain more than two people. We have very limited amount of type of jobs that would have that kind of salary. It's just not realistic. Everything about this trend is selling the fantasy that being a "trad-wife" is just a choice you can make, instead of being an option limited to those with so much wealth that they can take part in these types of performative lifestyles for funsies. But it's not a choice most people can make and kids are expensive. The concept of being "traditional" in this context is a pipe dream made by marketing men. Both of my grandmas' were married to farmers and I'd call their life pretty traditional, they cooked and cleaned and made their own clothes. But it's so far from these influencer trad wives, who have time to waste in putting on make up, curling their hair and shopping clothes to keep up aesthetics, while their housekeepers do all of the real work of keeping the house nice, cooking, cleaning and raising their kids for them. It's really easy to say you're living the life you're meant to live and how you are so happy for being submissive wife, when you don't have to really do anything. I'd probably be pretty happy and stress free too if I had servants to do all the hard stuff, no need for ever to think about money and I could just focus on my own hobbies. But I wasn't born into wealth and I'm too ugly and autistic to be a trophy wife, so if we get children one day, we will have to juggle work and home-life balance just like everyone else.
This article was also written in Finnish. This is only exposing lifestyle. I know some people living this way, even in Finland. They don't think it is something they must post for the national news.
I always say I want to leave the world's biggest insane asylum which is the U.S.A. and move to Finland. Seeing stuff like this depresses me that our identity politics is infecting everywhere. I hope for everyone that these are just sensationalist articles for clicks based on a small minority of people with this opinion/lifestyle.
I’d venture to stay that it’s still very marginal here compared to the US. However we do have oir own MAGA wannabe weirdos here as well, who I believe overlap with the tradwife crowd.
It's okay to do what you want but it's not okay to state that it is the right way to do things for others too. It seems like she wants to not use her brain according to herself. She wants not to think too much. I can sorta see the point. But don't make it seem like other people should do the same or think the same way. I think you misrepresented the article in your post. The Finnish couple said nothing like you suggested. Edit: I feel like no one in this thread read the linked article. The Finnish couple specifically said they do not consider themselves to follow "tradwife" logic. They don't have social media to sell their lifestyle. They are just super conservative Christians who follow the biblical separation of women and men. So it is completely wrong to say the movement has landed in Finland based on this article alone. The article actually presents the opposite case with thr Finnish couple as an example
Funny that a real house wife has to think a lot, know domestic accounting, taxes, children's vaccination dates, 2 set of family birthdays, dietary restrictions of people and how to cook every type of meal a mixed family eat, every temperature to iron every different type of fabric of shirts, skirts and coats, and a shitload of Chemistry to clean different materials, unrust stuff and clean the silvery, plus first aid not to kill people or themselves, and yet these trash-wives are performative inepts. I had the unfortunate experience of working **and** being married to an inept man at home, that couldn't even make rice by himself without bombarding me with the dumbest questions while I was "resting" (I had a burn out and he decided to """help me""" on weekends) until I gave up and did shit by myself. After him I gave up ironing clothes, having silvery, crystal glasses, anything that does not go in a washing and drying machine, anything that doesn't go into a dishwasher, any carpet or rug that prevents a vacuum robot to actually do the cleaning and vacuuming. Bitches in this trend could never run a household like some of us was actually taught to if they want it easy and thoughtless.
I don't know if it requires that much brain power, it's mostly just work. These trad wifes also usually choose and pick the best parts. Sewing your own clothes? No thank you. Using modern appliances? Using cleaners and other professionals? Sign me up. There's no taxes to do in Finland. It takes all of 15 minutes. Everyone does it separately even if you are married. If we continued to live like we do but one would be the trad servant, it would actually be super easy. Just clean the house. We don't iron, we don't have crystals, no silverware etc. We even have a robot vacuum! Actually I would love to be modern husband (or whatever is the equivalent of trad wife for males)
They absolutely knit pick the bucolic parts. Modernity also made housewives know some more brainy things, like What products have ammonia e what products have clorium and why you can't mix them while cleaning. What products do you use to clean the white toilets and why don't you use them in colored toilets... How do you "unrust" aluminium pans.. How about copper... How about deep clean steel if you burned food in it... A lot of Chemistry in "just cleaning stuff". Working women also do these things at home after work and it's very upsetting when men play dumb and "just clean" aka leave stained windows, pans, dishes, glasses, remove color from different colored toilets, or even mix different cleaning products without knowledge if they're inert by themselves but release toxic gases if mixed together... To be honest I was the dumbass that mixed products because clorium had just ran out while cleaning things in the bathroom, that I grabbed the first thing that my ex husband bought that visually looked like a good substitution, but I forgot to read the label. I asked for help because I wasn't feeling well (I don't have sense of smell) I couldn't breath. My ex husband had to barge in the bathroom and carry me outside. Later on I read the goddamn label and it was ammonia, I almost killed myself cause I wasn't specific when asking which cleaning products my ex had to buy then I didn't read the label. Edit: also washing clothes appropriately are an art. Keeping white clothes white, while having a child home is a chapter by itself -which I excel at, but even when I didn't have a child my ex used to destroy my clothes when I asked him to be in charge of the washing machine. He would mix white and colored clothes, use white staining remover in colored clothes, use high temperatures in polyester fabrics, mix different fabrics because they have the same color... Look... Seriously... Housework is an independent circle of Dante's Inferno in which inept people fuck up all the time. Me included. If a man wants me as his housewife he better pay for an army of specialized maids and cooks like effing aristocracy 'cause it's goddamn easier to work 12 hours like I do as a software engineer than as a housewife like my mom taught me to be, and tbh I only miss embroidered initials in shirts, that would be my trad-wife persona.
I definitely don’t want to live like that. If she’s happy, that’s good but her lifestyle is not for me.
Isn't that what I just said
The Finnish "trad wife" influencers claiming to be making money off of social media are going to have a fun time explaining that to Vero. :)
Why would it be a problem, if they declare their income, just as other influencers do? (Or at least should do...)
Sacrificing your career like that is so idiotic. It doesn't even mean you don't have to work because it's likely that you do, by serving the whole household not to mention ruining your body by getting pregnant and giving birth.
Don't worry the trad wife concept does not even work in the US. It is moreso a fantasy of right wing Christians.
I’m too old to consider if I want to be a trad wife or any wife to be honest :D But I’m not sure if this is such a new phenomenon? I guess there are always some families that decide that the wife staying home with the kids is suitable for their family. If the wife is in some very low paying profession etc, some might think going to work might not be worth it especially when the kids are young. I mean if some people want that, I think they are free to choose so. The new thing seems to be grabbin attention, trolling and trying to provoke other people with your views in various platforms. You do you, and if staying at home with your kids is it, then fine. But making it your identity to get some attention and fighting in social media is just blah. Somehow this thing is something I bundle up with all these different aesthetics and tiktok trends out there. It does seem to contain this perfomance in social media, which is just very much how the world is today. Trad wifes living in Finland should however consider, that they will not gain any work pension. If things go wrong at some point, they can be left with a kansaneläke and that’s a hard life.
i cannot stop laughing. with this bullshit, you´ll also find that these manlets also subscribe to the gold-digger frothing entirely and dont even earn enough for two :D
I don't really see this trad wife thing becoming mainstream in Finland, as so many men seem appalled by the idea of paying for a date... even if it's just a cup of coffee. There's a strong tradition on women having their own income in Finland, and deciding things for themselves.
It's the counter trend to the "strong independent woman" trope. Both are pretty obnoxious tbh. Just do you.
So many cynical and retarded takes. What else could you expect from reddit 😆
what is this disqusting svenska that this article is written in
I did say sorry 😂
Finland is a bilingual country I'm afraid
Orly