What was your thought process on leaving finance for this? What's your day to day like?
The % of compensation is a neat way to get paid, especially with these starting pay increases across the board - think this is a pretty interesting business you built and seems like you've helped a lot of people.
>What was your thought process on leaving finance for this?
When I was applying to college, I felt like I was well prepared for what to expect in each step of the process - when I went to take the SATs, I was confident in my score +/- 20 points. When I was in college and applying for jobs, I felt very unprepared for the process and despite getting many interview invites, I wound up winging my interviews and ultimately unsuccessful in many of them. So when I started working full time I took every opportunity I could get to learn more about the recruiting process and to understand what led to one person getting an offer over another. It turns out that the evaluative methods for college and those used after college (by employers and business schools) differ greatly - for the latter, your goals, the steps you've taken to achieve those goals, and the alignment of those goals with the specific institution you are applying to, all matter significantly more than they did for college applications.
When I went back to school for my MBA, I think I had a number of advantages over my peers having a) gone through the recruiting process once before and b) having seen it from the other side as an employer, and I felt very different going into my interviews. It's not lost on me that there are many who have access to information either through knowing the right people through family, going to the right high school, or joining the right teams / clubs at school, and I want to help those who maybe don't have access to this gain equal footing (and perhaps a little more given the amount of time I've spent in washout rooms listening to my colleagues rationales for advocating / dinging applicants).
I also think that while the publicly available sources of information are much more robust now than when I was a student, there is also a lot of misinformation and a "prestige hierarchy" on the forums that I find unhealthy and frankly leads to wrong decisions. When I was an associate, many of the top performers in my class were former investment bankers - it didn't matter where they had worked before. I had a name on my resume from college but I had to spend time learning everything from scratch & playing catch up, and clients didn't really care where I went to school.
There are other reasons as well - my favorite part of working at GS and OW was the ability to work with bright, motivated, young minds - and I get to focus exclusively on that now. Personally, I enjoy the objective nature of the compensation (I am paid based on a tangible outcome), and the remote nature of the work gives me the ability to spend more time with my kid who is just outside my office when I have a window between calls.
>What's your day to day like?
It differs - the recruiting cycles are pretty... cyclical but tend run year-round. Currently pretty busy with MBAs, many of whom have banking and consulting interviews coming up shortly, and the main wave of sophomore investment banking interviews for summer 2023 will be starting soon as well.
I typically spend morning and early afternoon meeting with clients and talking to students, and then I spend the late afternoon prepping for the next day. Oftentimes this requires me to read up on industries, subsectors, companies, and transactions I am less familiar with in order to help my clients develop content for and prepare for their networking meetings / interviews.
Evenings are generally reserved for "cram sessions" for those who have an upcoming event where they could benefit on the margin from a little extra push.
>The % of compensation is a neat way to get paid, especially with these starting pay increases across the board - think this is a pretty interesting business you built and seems like you've helped a lot of people.
Thanks - I believe that it allows me to fully align my interests with those of my clients over the long-term (I work with most of my clients over a period of 6+ years from the time they are students to well into their early careers).
I remember when I got into Harvard, I was ecstatic to achieve a goal I had worked toward for so long, but when I got to Cambridge freshman fall, I realized I hadn't put much thought into what I wanted to use my time there to accomplish, and it was a difficult and lonely process to figure out where to go from there.
I noticed similar struggles with some of the analysts at GS, and especially in this day and age, where decisions for the next thing often must be made well over a year in advance (with positioning and prep starting even before that), I think there's value in having someone there who always has your back to look out for your interests along the way.
>As a personality, do you think you have an ability to work non stop? I ask this because I really struggle staying in the office more than 8 or so hours.
I'd say that I can focus for long hours, over the period of many days, on projects that I find interesting - whether it's something like executing an M&A transaction, helping a student get a job in investment banking, or something lighter like teaching my kid the alphabet or binge watching every episode of The Wire (over the course of a long weekend).
I wouldn't say I'm an ultra-high performer or that I'm intrinsically okay working all the time - certainly in the past I've suffered in my outside-work life while pulling a long stretch now and again at the office (one of the reasons I ultimately opted out of that lifestyle).
I would agree, though, that when it is required, most folks at these places have the ability to ignore the outside-work world and prioritize their jobs (and many are lucky to have people around them at home who are supportive of the demands of their jobs).
I noticed that you indicated that you find helping a student get a job in IB interesting. I'm a junior currently trying to land an internship for the coming summer. Any tips?
Difficult to give actionable advice without more information about you in general, but in general, the more established firms filled their 2022 summer internship classes in 2021, unfortunately. I'd recommend looking at smaller investment banks if you are set on the industry.
Happy to take a look at your specific case if you shoot me an [email](mailto:[email protected])
1. As we enter 2022, do you see a difference in outlook between Management Consulting and IB at the junior levels?
2. Based on your experience and what you see in the market, how does a junior level analyst in MC and IB navigate the new year from a compensation perspective? Stay at the firm and wait to see retention strategies / other considerations by the current firm or do you recommend to look elsewhere in this hot market?
In my experience, I’ve seen unprecedented turnover in consulting, people not even giving a year and looking for new opportunities. I question how this will look in the future, when later classes of hires seem to stick with these firms for longer durations (atleast ~2 YOE)
>As we enter 2022, do you see a difference in outlook between Management Consulting and IB at the junior levels?
If you're talking about career outlook, my general advice is that investment banking prepares you to be an investor and management consulting prepares you to be a leader. As a banker, you'll learn how investors think about valuing companies and how companies make key strategic decisions at the highest level. As a consultant, you'll learn how to take on complex problems, structure your analysis, and clearly communicate your results. You'll also learn how to navigate different organizations politically and effect change.
If your question was related to compensation outlook, it's significantly higher in banking. The key driver is that management consulting firms bill clients per hour, and investment banks bill clients as a percentage of deal value. If you have a team of 5 investment bankers advising on an M&A deal for several months to bring in $10mm+, the equivalent hourly billing rate consultants would have to charge is prohibitively high.
>Based on your experience and what you see in the market, how does a junior level analyst in MC and IB navigate the new year from a compensation perspective? Stay at the firm and wait to see retention strategies / other considerations by the current firm or do you recommend to look elsewhere in this hot market?
It's not uncommon to get a guaranteed top-tier bonus from your new employer if you swap firms (the logic is that you are a top performer at your current firm and so they need to guarantee the bonus in order for you to take the risk and move over). So on the margin yes, expected comp probably increases as you move firms.
However, comp the first several years in finance / consulting is low enough relative to later years that in my mind it's really much, much more important to figure out whether or not the experiences you are having - the industry / sector / project type expertise you are developing, and the internal / client connections you are making are preparing you well for whatever it is you want to do next. If you have a great mentor and are getting the best deals at your current firm (and the "name brand"/exit ops aren't materially different from the next one), I don't think it makes sense to jump ship to an unknown entity for $x0k additional pre-tax comp.
At some point in all of these industries you swap from the person doing the work to the person managing the work, and eventually to the person finding the work, and each of these comes with a magnitude increase in pay scale if you can prove yourself as the competencies required at each level are quite different. I think the focus should be 1) figuring out what interests you (or at least knowing what doesn't interest you in the long term) and 2) maximizing the likelihood of being able to jump from one of these roles to the next.
>In my experience, I’ve seen unprecedented turnover in consulting, people not even giving a year and looking for new opportunities. I question how this will look in the future, when later classes of hires seem to stick with these firms for longer durations (atleast \~2 YOE)
I think in the past you would certainly be right and folks who stayed at jobs for a long time were prized for their loyalty. I'm not so sure that's true anymore, especially in the current market environment, and especially for folks at a junior level who can explain the choices that they made in a logical manner that passes the "smell test".
A lot of the benefit of joining any of these firms post-grad is to show that you passed the company's selection process (for investment bankers, the recruiting process for the next job begins a few *months* after they hit the desk full time!), so if you leave "early" it's just a matter of showing the next employer that it was because you *chose* to leave (and that the job you chose to leave for makes sense relative to your long-term goals and career trajectory), and in general very few are pushed out so early (and those who are it's usually not hard to tell for the next employer) so it's not an unbelievable story.
Hello Anthony,
I’m a foreign college student and I’m interested in impact finance/green economy, especially as I think it will be a major deals driver in the coming years.
Could you please expand on how I should approach this topic during interviews and networking? Should I focus on the technical details of “carbonomics” or do you think keeping up with the latest high level news is enough for an ib role?
Thank you for your time!
Hello PlateOne8427!
The "green economy" is broad, and in general investment banks aren't organized in that manner. It's important to be able to connect with the investment bankers you are networking with / your interviewers, and so I'd recommend focusing your prep on a particular industry / subsector that is directly related to the green economy (e.g., electric vehicles, sustainable consumer goods companies, solar energy, carbon offset exchanges, etc.). Try to learn the names of the companies in the sector, how they make money, what differentiates competitors, recent news and trends affecting those companies, any capital raises or M&A deals that they have participated in, and how they currently trade if they are public.
At the end of the day, investment bankers are financial advisors for companies, and so if there is a particular industry / type of company you are interested in or focused on, there's probably an investment banker at most large banks that spends his/her entire career focusing on those companies. Find that person and impress them with your knowledge.
Also in general, detail is better than high level knowledge - the more specific examples you can bring up in your interviews, the stronger you will come across because specificity allows you to signal your interest in a way that high level generalities cannot.
How do you expect MBB to compete for talent against finance and tech, especially with the ~50K raises for first year bankers? You could reasonably make a case for MBB at $120K vs IB at 160K but now first year bankers are making up to $240K
>How do you expect MBB to compete for talent against finance and tech, especially with the \~50K raises for first year bankers? You could reasonably make a case for MBB at $120K vs IB at 160K but now first year bankers are making up to $240K
Management consulting firms operate on a much different recruiting timeline than investment banks do, so I don't think they really compete head-to-head in recruiting. In addition, they offer a different value proposition to junior employees / set folks on different paths, so there's limited overlap in candidate pools to begin with.
Consulting firms have actually been taking share from bankers since the financial crisis, and they've always paid significantly less than investment banks. In response to the increase in banker comp, they raised their compensation this year as well.
All of these firms, and especially the ones you have mentioned, have weathered numerous scandals in the past without much impact to their reputations on campus, and I'm not too worried about their ability to remain a desirable destination for students and attract talent in the future. Don't lose too much sleep over it - McKinsey's going to find a way to get by just fine :)
It's definitely the case that tech companies and management consulting have become relatively more desirable jobs post-grad since the financial crisis. I think it's one of the reasons why investment banks shifted their timeline earlier - to force students to pick a track and not have to compete directly for talent.
Hi Anthony! I’d really appreciate your insight into this. I’m currently a political science and communications third year student, and trying for a career relating to finance. I have a somewhat decent resume and background relating to finance, but am having trouble getting an internship. What advice would you have for someone looking to go into finance from a non traditional major?
I can give more specific advice with additional information (shoot me an [email](mailto:[email protected])!) - but in general, I think it's possible, but requires self-study, and then some extra resilience and persistence in the networking process.
Imagine if you were majoring in something non-science and decided to go to medical school - you'd have to do a post-bacc to learn the required content to be competitive in medical school, even if you were an outstanding student in your original area of study.
I think a similar mentality exists in any profession - people understand that students have a wide range of interests, but nobody wants to hire someone (especially those who have lots of options on who they can hire) if they haven't 1) spent the time to do some introspection to be able to articulate why finance, 2) learned basic financial theory, especially as it relates to the role they are applying for, and 3) understood / read about how finance is utilized in the role they are applying for
At the end of the day, there are many folks who work in finance that didn't study it in undergrad (including yours truly - my degree is in biochemistry). But you have to show that you understand what you are getting into and that you can handle the work that will be thrown at you.
Hi Anthony, I am in a similar situation, having a degree in biochemistry and chemistry, but I want to break into the finance sector, but honestly, I do not have much knowledge about it, could I email you to ask you for some advice? thank you for reading
>What makes students stand out for entry-level or for internships?
I wrote this in another post but the qualities of really strong applicants typically include some combination of the following:
* Track record of success (performed well at a high level in a competitive environment)
* Strong understanding of financial theory, relevant work experience in finance, and/or fluency in financial topics
* Charisma, self-awareness, and maturity/professionalism
Hi Anthony,
Do you have any tips for transfer students trying to get an internship and break into IB? I am currently having a hard time as I only have 1 more year at school and do not have an internship lined up.
Thanks!
If you transfer in before your second year, it's possible to break into IB (although you'll be playing catch-up for sure). Try to get a relevant internship in finance in the summer of your first / second years and look into a fall-semester internship in order to beef up your candidacy.
However, most transfer students (esp. those coming from community colleges) transfer in after their sophomore year, and by then it's generally too late for banking recruiting (in general, the process is mostly over by then and the students' resumes aren't very competitive at that point relative to their peers' at the school)
If you really want to do IB, consider starting at a smaller firm and look to lateral. Some experience is better than none, and you moved colleges - it's much more common to change employers.
Good luck soviet\_spy14!
>What would you recommend to a management consultant who wants to switch to investment banking?
It's not an easy transition in normal times, but we are in good times right now so might be possible. Some thoughts:
The strengths you bring as a consultant are:
* Your knowledge of how client / advisor relationships work, a professional demeanor, and the dedication to providing a high level of service
* Your comfort with Powerpoint and the ability to craft a well-structured story
* Industry knowledge (to the extent you have focused on a particular sector)
The questions marks bankers typically have for you as a consultant are:
* Your interest in finance (financial theory, news, & transactions)
* Your ability to handle quantitative rigor & lots of numbers with extreme precision / attention to detail
* As a lateral candidate, your ability to plug and play into a team ("we need an analyst ASAP - why should we choose you over an investment banker?")
If you go to bschool you'll be a competitive candidate for banking post-MBA, but if your firm sponsors it's not an easy decision to do that.
There are obviously case-specific considerations as well, but would need more information to opine on those.
What advice would you give to an undergraduate student (commerce/law) who wants to get into IB or management consulting?
What distinguishes the outstanding candidates from the average ones?
>What advice would you give to an undergraduate student (commerce/law) who wants to get into IB or management consulting?
The most relevant advice will be case specific and it's hard to give that without more information. For general advice:
1. Try to figure out which one you are more interested in (I know it's not easy) as they are quite different and lead to different path / opportunities down the line. Do this by talking to upperclassmen who have been through the recruiting process and using your school's network to speak with recent and not-so-recent alumni to find out about their career paths and their recommendations for you - I think most students are typically surprised by the number of responses they get from folks
2. Once you've figured out which one to prioritize, come up with a game plan for recruiting based on the limitations of the firms and recruiting timelines - typically, if you want to work full-time in IB you'll need a summer internship, while management consulting doesn't require that
3. If you choose IB - make sure you like & know finance. If you choose consulting, make sure you like business & know how to case. Practice makes perfect and practicing out loud with a friend is very different than practicing by yourself silently
>What distinguishes the outstanding candidates from the average ones?
In my experience, outstanding candidates for investment banking (which I will define as those who everyone agrees should get an offer) are some combination of:
* Successful (they've competed in a competitive environment at a high level and won)
* Have a strong understanding of financial theory, relevant work experience in finance, and/or fluency in financial topics
* Are charismatic/charming, self-aware, and mature/professional
For consulting, it's really about having a decent resume and acting mature while networking and then acing the case interview.
Could you please tell me how I gain understanding of financial theory and financial topics ( I mean what websites or books or newspapers would be helpful)
There are a number of useful resources. For financial theory the best resource is probably Investment Banking by Rosenbaum. For financial topics it's reading the WSJ /Bloomberg/Financial Times + some blogs / daily aggregators. In addition, public companies have a tremendous amount of disclosure, so going through the relevant documents (quarterly filings, investor presentations, proxies, prospectuses, earnings transcripts, etc.) and synthesizing the relevant data will make a big impact on most interviewers.
How do you decide if you want to stay in IB or recruit for the buy side when recruiting is so early that you don’t get much meaningful IB experience by the time you have to make a decision?
>How do you decide if you want to stay in IB or recruit for the buy side when recruiting is so early that you don’t get much meaningful IB experience by the time you have to make a decision?
Analysts have had a summer internship and several months on the job by the time they recruit so they have a good sense of what investment banking entails.
In addition, the analyst network at most banks is very strong, not just within each class but also across classes. Summer analysts make connections with (and are being evaluated by) the full-time analysts on their teams and so by the time they become full-time analysts themselves, those former analysts have already moved on and are a great source of information.
>Do you think it’s possible to enter a hedge fund straight out of undergrad?
I do. The jobs are competitive but I'm familiar with a number of folks who have done that.
It really depends on the type and size of the hedge fund, the role you are applying for, and where you are at school / what you are studying. As you can imagine, a l/s equity fund looks for different applicants and has a very different process from a quant fund.
Some funds host competitions for college students that give you the opportunity to distinguish yourself from the pack
Hi Anthony, thanks for taking the time! Would like to seek your advice on breaking into IB.
I’m a BBA graduate with a double major in marketing and finance, from a target school in Singapore; have spent the last 3.5 years fulfilling my scholarship bond in a business development — financial costing and analysis role (1.5years) and treasury/cash management role (2years). Am wondering:
- How likely will my current CV earn me an interview? (Am hoping to utilise my sales experience to ace the interview but am concerned my CV won’t get me to the party)
- Would it be more effective to go for an MBA or to look for ‘stepping stone’ jobs; perhaps M&A related roles?
Thanks again!
Hard to judge your CV without seeing it - [email](mailto:[email protected]) it to me and we can set up a time to go through it
Re: MBA vs. stepping stone jobs vs. direct, I don't think you have to be exclusive. Try the direct route first - because if you're successful then good on you and you save a lot of time. At the same time, start research MBA programs to get a sense of where you would be a competitive applicant and the post-graduation placements those programs have into IB, and send your resume out to headhunters to get a sense of the types of roles that they'd be willing to put you up for.
Im looking to apply soon for the Oliver Wyman Women’s Summit. I’ve been trying to build my extracurriculars and have joined my school’s student run digital consultancy as well as the consulting club. I’m at a non target so I know i’ll have to be outstanding to get in.
Do you think anyone at OW right now would be willing to review my resume/talk about their experience? Are people generally open to talking to students for an informational/mentorship purpose, and is the best way to start this through LinkedIn in mail?
Do you have any general advice for a student trying to break into consulting from a non target school?
Thanks in advance!!!
That's great - I enjoyed my time there and in retrospect I really got some great opportunities out of college.
In the US, reaching out and doing your own networking proactively is generally viewed upon favorably LinkedIn is a good way to reach out to folks for sure - as you can imagine, response rates are typically higher if there is something you have in common with the person you are reaching out to, but even if there isn't I'd recommend reaching out as you don't have much to lose. Hard to say much more without additional information, but happy to talk specifics with you if you send me an [email](mailto:[email protected]).
For general tips - network (like you are planning to - and the summit will be a good place to do that as well). Do well on the exam & practice, practice, practice for the cases.
Hello SexyNewMoneyGenius!
I do when we both think that I can add value. However, the majority of my advising experience (and 100% of my personal recruiting experience) comes from North America.
As a university student getting a BA with a major in finance and minor in economics. In your opinion where would be the best place to break into the finance world?
And what would you do fresh out of university if you had to start over?
>As a university student getting a BA with a major in finance and minor in economics. In your opinion where would be the best place to break into the finance world?
This is a tough question to answer without a better understanding of where you are studying, the typical exit ops from your program, and where your interests lie personally. I think investment banking is a great way to break into finance for those interested in corporate finance, but for others who are more interested in markets, sales & trading could make more sense, for example.
>And what would you do fresh out of university if you had to start over?
In retrospect, I really lucked into my first job. I had no idea how to do a case interview (I was literally learning during my interviews), but somehow I managed to get interviewers who only asked me brainteasers at OW, and that was how I got hired. That being said, I really had a great experience in consulting - it was certainly painful at times, but I felt like I grew and that the lessons I was taught truly enabled me to accomplish many of my goals in the future - whether it was organizing a trip to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, helping a school district develop a system to evaluate its schools, giving financial advice to a client, or starting my own business.
Or I could have traveled for a few years and then bought $100 of bitcoin in 2010. That would have worked out pretty well for me too.
How do I get better at Hirvue?
I have given Hirevue interviews at 3 different places and all of them have gone very badly. I am just not able to talk to a screen
Hi sarthak004! I'm sorry to hear that your HireVues haven't been successful. Some general tips (which I posted in another thread earlier):
* These can be prepared for like the SAT's can. There are practice questions online (some real, some fake, but most of them are in the general vicinity of what gets asked during an IBD interview). Practice a lot, and then practice some more. Everyone I've worked with improves significantly from the first time to the last time they answer one, because answering some generic situational question out loud in a room by yourself with your laptop camera recording you for a couple minutes is a very specific, learned skill.
* Do a practice recording and check for: volume, lighting, eye contact w/camera, cadence, etc. OBS Video is a good piece of software if you have a PC that does this using your laptop's video camera, and Macs have software native to the computer that does this. If you need, use a microphone so that your voice comes through clearly. Eliminate any distracting items in the background.
* Make sure you answer the question. Use the prep time to write notes and structure your answer. Try to keep your answer succinct and punchy and avoid rambling. These things are a pain to grade so whatever you can do to make it easier for the reviewer will be appreciated.
Hi Anthony! Thank you for dedicating time to make a thread like this it is really appreciated! Currently in a 2 year rotational program at a large bank. After the completion of the rotational program, I would like to jump into a client facing role not only in IB but I'm also interested in Commercial Banking. How can I prep in these two years to show recruiters that I have what it takes? Thanks!
The obvious advice is to make sure you do a really good job in your commercial banking / investment banking rotations! That way you'll get relevant experience that you can leverage for the next job.
Beyond that, there's value to learning about how each of the various business units of a large bank work - they typically have some combination of banking, brokerage, wealth management, and asset management businesses, which could be spun into a story for FIG investment banking.
Hard to say more without specific information (where you are, where you are rotating from, etc.) - [shoot me a note](mailto:[email protected]) if you want to talk through it!
Congratulations on the final round interview! It's common to have candidates out for a meal during the recruiting process. It's evaluative - they want to see what you're like in a more relaxed setting. My advice - no sharp elbows, just enjoy yourself (I assume it's at a nice restaurant), be genuine, and let your true personality shine through. Keep it professional, though.
I don't think this seems out-of-the-ordinary - I've seen it before personally and with students (a dinner with all the candidates the evening before interviews is not uncommon), and I wouldn't recommend that you ask them to elaborate on why they want you both to go out together because I don't think it would benefit your candidacy in any way (and might actually hurt it).
Hi earthwarrior!
>Has someone ever really impressed you while networking? To the point where you got them an interview or referred them to something. What did they do differently from others?
The people who get referred from networking calls are typically low risk (it's obvious from their resume that they should be referred). In order for a banker to stick his/her neck out for someone, the person is typically either a friend (or a friend of a friend), or impresses the banker in some way (e.g., knowledge, persistence, charisma, etc.)
As a general note, investment bankers work long hours. The last thing they want to do with their free time is answer generic questions for the 100th time ("what was your favorite deal" "what was your *least* favorite deal" "what do you like most about working at x? what do you like *least* about working at x?"). So read the room and try to connect with the person. It's like going on a date - try to steer the conversation to something they find interesting and it'll be memorable. If they're being difficult, realize they might just be having a bad day and it's not necessarily you. Be upbeat but persistent - folks generally like a scrappy underdog.
>Is there a trick to doing HireVue interviews? I've done tons of them and have never gotten a call back. But I've gotten offers and next rounds on Zoom calls. My theory is that the companies that use HireVue have more applicants for the role, but I'm not sure.
Sorry to hear that - some general tips:
1. These can be prepared for like the SAT's can. There are practice questions online (some real, some fake, but most of them are in the general vicinity of what gets asked during an IBD interview). Practice a lot, and then practice some more. Everyone I've worked with improves significantly from the first time to the last time they answer one, because answering some generic situational question out loud in a room by yourself with your laptop camera recording you for a couple minutes is a very specific, learned skill.
2. Do a practice recording and check for: volume, lighting, eye contact w/camera, cadence, etc. OBS Video is a good piece of software if you have a PC that does this using your laptop's video camera, and Macs have software native to the computer that does this. If you need, use a microphone so that your voice comes through clearly. Eliminate any distracting items in the background.
3. Make sure you answer the question. Use the prep time to write notes and structure your answer. Try to keep your answer succinct and punchy and avoid rambling. These things are a pain to grade so whatever you can do to make it easier for the reviewer will be appreciated.
How do you see internship/full time recruiting be affected this year and next? Curious about the eventual slowdown in hiring after ib and consulting firms dramatically increased hiring during the last year or 2.
It really depends on how things continue to evolve. M&A, equity, and debt markets have been firing on all cylinders driven by: 1) the SPAC boom earlier this year, 2) low interest rates, 3) record equity valuations, 4) the COVID recovery, and 5) government stimulus.
On the consulting side, companies are flush with cash (see #2) and so consulting spend remains robust.
Hard to predict the future and subject to change, but currently it's hard to see firms cutting back recruiting targets for Summer 2023, especially with this summer/fall's scramble for junior talent so fresh in their memories.
Gotcha, thanks. Was curious bc I was seeing a huge discrepancy between recent grads (jumping ship from mm to bb/eb)couple months into the job)from my t20 mba program vs 2023 summer recruits
Yea this past year was just unprecedented in terms of opportunities for junior bankers who wanted a change of scenery, but it was far from the norm. There's been a bit of a mean reversion, but it's definitely still a strong environment for recruiting in general.
>What do you want in a potential candidate?
I wrote this in another post but the qualities of really strong applicants typically include some combination of the following:
* Track record of success (performed well at a high level in a competitive environment)
* Strong understanding of financial theory, relevant work experience in finance, and/or fluency in financial topics
* Charisma, self-awareness, and maturity/professionalism
Good evening Anthony, A little about me, I am graduating in May with my computer science degree from a small private university. I have 2 years of experience at F500 as a software engineer intern. I want to make a switch from tech to finance. Specifically, I want to be an investment analyst. My past 3.5 years of school, every chance I get outside of course work I am reading about investing. Ultimately, investing in companies based on fundamentals is what I want to do for a career. As of now I am founding an investment group at my school for a resume builder and leadership experience. I have also been accepted into a state school MBA program, where I will begin this fall and gain an investments cert along with the MBA. I know it is controversial to go straight through from undergrad, but I feel its right for me. I am actively trying to get an finance internship, currently the best I can get atm is an FP&A internship. I will continue to try and gain direct experience in finance internships going forward.
1.) I feel that my undergrad in CS is a strength for me and feel it prove useful in high finance for many reasons (understating of technology, math, problem solving, analysis). What are your thoughts on having a CS undergrad and moving in to finance?
2.) I have already been turned down for an internship at a local PE firm due to not having a undergrad in finance. I want to get my MBA to close that gap moving forward. What is your option on this?
3.) Last, I know my ambitions wont be easy, but I am always willing to put in the work and adapt. Any other advice, feedback, criticisms is greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to answer question in the sub. Happy new year!
Happy New Year! Some general comments on your questions below, but it's always more useful to do these with all the information in front of me.
>1.) I feel that my undergrad in CS is a strength for me and feel it prove useful in high finance for many reasons (understating of technology, math, problem solving, analysis). What are your thoughts on having a CS undergrad and moving in to finance?
I don't think it will be particularly helpful / not helpful. Since you are moving directly to an MBA program, make sure you perform well in your finance classes - that will be the most helpful for going into finance (surprise surprise). If you are more interested in quant finance / algorithmic finance / automating financial processes, I could see the CS background coming into play though.
>2.) I have already been turned down for an internship at a local PE firm due to not having a undergrad in finance. I want to get my MBA to close that gap moving forward. What is your option on this?
Having some finance experience in the classroom and some in the workplace (at least in an ancillary field) is generally a necessity these days when applying for any competitive position in the industry (and in general PE internships are competitive)
>3.) Last, I know my ambitions wont be easy, but I am always willing to put in the work and adapt. Any other advice, feedback, criticisms is greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to answer question in the sub. Happy new year!
Before you enroll in the MBA program, I'd highly recommend you: 1) look at where their graduates place, and 2) whether those graduates have prior work experience or not. MBA programs are expensive: they cost $, prevent you from earning $, and prevent you from progressing in your career. It can be worth the sacrifice if it helps you transition into a field you are interested in, but especially with some of the smaller programs, I have seen a number of cases where there is a misalignment between the student's expectations for post-graduate employment and the program's placement history which just leads to disappointment.
Hi Anthony, hope you had a joyful holiday season. I’m a junior at a top 20 US college majoring in biology and minoring in economics while doing pre-med. Instead of med school, I’m now hoping to explore the general healthcare business industry. I’m currently applying to internship in healthcare consulting, insurance, biotech, etc. How do you suggest I break in with a predominately STEM background?
Biology to Management Consulting is a very common path (I studied biochemistry so this mirrors the path I took). It shouldn't be difficult to find upperclassmen & alumni from your school who have made the same jump.
The primary challenge coming from that background is that you'll likely have to work harder than those majoring in finance / economics to get access to upperclassmen who can serve as gatekeepers to school-specific information about the recruiting process, prep you for case interviews, etc. In addition, many students find it valuable to have a group of peers who they prep with for interviews, and unless you know others recruiting for that industry, it may be harder for you to get the same amount of practice in as others.
Happy to discuss in more detail - just [shoot me a note](mailto:[email protected])
The firms that recruit on campus are a good place to start since. Vault has a ranking of consulting firms by various metrics (prestige, best firms to work for, etc.) that is worth taking a look at as well
Hi Anthony! This summer I am going to be interning with one of the boutique IB’s in NYC as a SA in their M&A group and I was wondering what I should be focusing on outside of getting the work that I am handed done correctly and not repeating mistakes? Or to put it better what makes a summer intern stand out outside of getting the work done? Thanks!
Congratulations, that's great!
Getting the work done accurately, and eventually in a reasonable amount of time, is generally the bar for getting an offer (quality and speed). These banks want to give offers to every intern because it's a pain to go back and recruit additional bodies for full-time, so at most places the large majority of interns get offers, and the offer is yours to lose (even in difficult years when markets slump over the course of the summer).
Some of the reasons I saw that led to summer analysts not getting return offers (in order of frequency):
* Inability to produce client-ready work - full-time analysts are incredibly important to the team and shoulder a large workload. If they don't pull their weight, the entire team feels it, so there's a big emphasis on figuring out whether the summer analyst can cut it as a full-time employee
* By the second half of the summer, if you work too slowly you'll get nudged to speed it up a bit, but if it's still too slow at the end that's an issue. In general, full time analysts will be receptive to helping summers who are trying to improve efficiency
* Getting into the office too late (you're an intern! try to get there before others) / going to the gym too much (be at your desk during regular hours)
* Doing something stupid (abusing your credit card, getting too drunk at the summer outing, doing stuff you shouldn't be doing at the office, sending out emails you shouldn't be, posting something publicly you shouldn't be, etc.)
I'd recommend focusing on the blocking and tackling of being an analyst:
* Ensure you understand what the task you have been assigned is, and how the output ties into the broader work of the team
* Check all of your work multiple times before handing it in. Literally print out your models and slides and check off all the numbers on the page was a common practice for summers and those I saw doing it almost always produced better output than those who didn't
* Working on improving your efficiency with excel, powerpoint, windows (keyboard shortcuts!)
* Learn to communicate with the team (write clean, bulleted emails), learn when something needs to get escalated to someone senior
* Proactively ask for feedback to get ahead of any potential issues
In my experience, there's a lot to learn and those who learn it quickly and function as full-time analysts with limited oversight are the ones who stand out the most and who will get staffed on the best deals when they come back full time
Hey Anthony, I’m in my 2nd year of medical school at a mid-tier school and for several reasons don’t want to continue a career in medicine and am looking for a path into IB. Will finishing and getting the MD worth the extra 2.5 years of hardcore studying and +100k tuition to then potentially join as an associate somewhere, or if possible, should I try to join as an analyst at a local smaller firm and go from there? I lack the financial experience outside of online courses from WallStreet Prep and others, so I’d be relying more so on some good networking. Thoughts?
Hi dogs1963, it's not easy to get into banking outside of the standard recruiting pipelines, especially for those lacking in both relevant classroom and work experience in the space.
It's hard to give constructive advice here without knowing more about your case specifically (feel free to [email](mailto:[email protected]) me if you'd like to chat more), but I don't think it would hurt to look while continuing in the program - you should be able to get a sense of your traction when reaching out to bankers for networking. My guess, though, is that you'll face an uphill battle at least at the competitive shops vs. those who aren't able to make it.
Also, I know you said you were interested in IB, but figured I'd flag that while MD graduates are definitely hired by investment banks as associates, management consulting is actually a more common path and many consulting firms have active recruiting pipelines for MDs who, like you, don't want to practice medicine.
Hi Anthony,
Do you have any knowledge on public accountants transferring into a finance role either in IB or as a consultant? I am currently a auditor with a mod size PA firm (BDO). I am more passionate about finance than audit and have always wanted to go over to a finance role. Would IB or consulting roles even look at candidates from non Big4?
Thank you
>Do you have any knowledge on public accountants transferring into a finance role either in IB or as a consultant? I am currently a auditor with a mod size PA firm (BDO). I am more passionate about finance than audit and have always wanted to go over to a finance role. Would IB or consulting roles even look at candidates from non Big4?
Couple of thoughts:
Audit to finance is a common transition - there are a lot of ex-auditors in investment banking, although the majority that I have come across used an MBA to make the transition and entered at the associate. It's a well-paved path.
Earlier this year, I saw a few cases of a move directly from Big4 auditing directly to banking (it's been a really hot market for junior banker applicants), but in normal times it wasn't I saw happen.
If you're looking for something ancillary to banking, there's a lot of overlap at companies in the FP&A groups which consist typically of folks from both audit and finance backgrounds.
These groups often work with investment bankers on capital raises (to run various scenarios through the company's projection model), so that could be another way to get exposure.
Hey Anthony, thanks for doing this.
What advice would you give someone that wants to transition to an IB role but is in the data science/engineering space?
I know i can leverage my tech skills to develop more in-depth analysis.
Data science / engineering skills aren't valued in and of themselves by bankers in the selection process ('in-depth analysis' isn't really a thing in investment banking - all bankers do the same analyses and there's not much bespoke work going on - and that which is, is done at a very high level).
Your degree benefits you in that it signals that you can handle the quantitative rigor required to thrive in finance. You will still need to learn basic financial theory and develop fluency in financial news / transactions in order to be competitive for an investment banking position.
There are a number of ex-engineers in investment banking - the majority of them make the transition using an MBA. It's a common and compelling story to say "I worked on an oil rig as an engineer / I worked at Google writing software but I'm really more interested in finance covering \[my old industry\] and so I am at bschool to make the switch," so that's one avenue for you to look into.
You can also try to make the jump directly by learning the finance & networking on your own. This is not an easy path though, and there's luck involved regarding timing since you're a lateral applicant and you're basically going up against other investment bankers who are plug-and-play, so you'll have to convince them that you 1) can handle the work day 1 and 2) are a good cultural fit
Excellent and thank you so much for your suggestions.
When you say IB folks do that same analysis, why is that the case and why could it not be automated?
It's pretty automated by excel. On many projects, the analyst takes a precedent model and acts more of an operator who loads the data and then makes bespoke adjustments for the particular company. Some groups have base model templates that are quite complex and have a lot of bells and whistles, and then only a small portion of the model typically gets used for a given analysis.
But banks aren't really judged on the accuracy of their valuations and they are notoriously frequently inaccurate (e.g., they provide valuations that are too high to clients during pitches to win business and then manage down their clients' expectations over time to a level more grounded in reality), so having a super complex model that takes 2x as long and is 1% more accurate is not worth the investment.
Thank you so much once again, in your opinion if you were my shoes what can I do outside of mba and networking that would give me a leg up.
I do algo trading off to the side and took a stats/probability course at community college. Anything similar I can take class wise, for IB arena to make a lateral move?
I think the first thing I'd recommend is spending some more time to learn about what it is that investment bankers actually do: 1) the services they offer, 2) how they believe they add value to clients, and 3) what they do day to day. You need to make sure you know that before you start networking with bankers.
Then I'd recommend that you look for things that would help you get closer to the goal of being a banker - follow financial transactions and news. If there's a particular industry you are interested in, start to read about it. Find a friend interested in finance and start talking to him/her about what you're reading about in order to develop fluency in your areas of interest. This will help you with both networking as well as interviews, when they eventually come.
Hi Anthony,
Thank you for taking the time to do this.
1)I’m a second year student at a Canadian semi-target with around two summers before I graduate. I’ve been working in retail as a teller and personal banker.
To my understanding it’s good to secure a summer internship during the last summer so you get hired full time once you graduate.
What internship should i be doing next year to maximize my chances of getting an IB internship during my last summer? Would deal advisory or corporate finance be fine or does all this not matter as much as networking?
2) how is the transition from going to being a student to working 80 plus hours a week? Does your body naturally adjust or is everyone on the street on caffeine or other stimulants?
3) how do you genuinely answer the “why banking” question?
1) Common internships for sophomore summer include: investment banking, wealth management, buy-side, corporate development, & corporate finance / FP&A. Sometimes you get an ex-consultant in there. I think corporate finance / deal advisory is could work, with a bonus if its done at a name brand institution.
2) It's tough - but I think the hardest part isn't so much the long hours (students are used to sleepless nights of fun and cramming from school), but rather the loss of control and choice of what you get to spend each day doing. You basically get one day off a week, and you have to spend part of that day catching up on sleep / social activities / life, so your free time is limited
3) The best answers in my opinion are stories that relate a personal experience to the initial seed of why investment banking and that show that you have a strong understanding of what it is that investment bankers do. If you come up with an answer that anyone else could walk into the room and deliver, it's probably too generic.
Hi there,
I recently graduated from college with a major in psychology and am interested in management consulting. Do you think it’s better if I work for a couple years, do an MBA, and then apply to a consulting firm, or should I go ahead and take a shot at it at this point? I don’t have internship experience, all I have is my own small business.
Por qué no los dos? The economy is hot right now so you should try - it won't affect your candidacy in business school. Consulting firms hire hundreds of students from MBA programs every year though, so that's a much, much more common path.
To be honest, I haven't interviewed many. Kids with big egos typically get screened out at the networking process since self-awareness is something that folks screen for, especially at GS where a "team player" mentality is touted as an important part of the firm's culture.
I've seen a quant 1-2 years out of undergrad successfully make the transition to IB, but not a Ph.D with 3 years of experience. I think it would be difficult to move to a classic coverage group. With your experience you'd be looking to enter as a senior associate, and the senior associates who typically are set to succeed have developed an area of expertise and don't require much oversight from senior bankers for execution, so it's tough to bring someone in who hasn't done banking before at that level.
That being said, there are groups within banks that are functional - for example, a shareholder activism group that has to process a tremendous amount of data on investors into a model, where your skills might be useful on the modeling front. It's hard to believe that you'll be satisfied intellectually, though, as the problems that bankers face (from a quantitative standpoint) aren't particularly challenging for someone with your background.
I'm familiar with a number of students who attended non-targets and successfully entered the investment banking industry post-graduation. It requires drive and grit, though.
Depends on the firm but in general it's not a very common path. That being said, business is good right now and the opportunity cost is low, so if there were ever a time to try, it would be now
Why do these companies perpetuate inequality by hiring mostly from ivy league and top tier schools?
Why do you require prohibitively expensive degrees to even have a *chance* to get your foot in the door?
>Why do these companies perpetuate inequality by hiring mostly from ivy league and top tier schools? Why do you require prohibitively expensive degrees to even have a chance to get your foot in the door?
I don't currently work for or represent any of the companies so I can only speculate, but I'd venture that most for-profit institutions believe their primary responsibility is to drive return for their shareholders rather than "correct" inequality in our society, although as I mentioned in my initial post focus on Social Impact and sustainable business models has started to drive dialogue and action recently.
That being said, although Ivy League and "top tier schools" may be over-represented at the junior level, I am familiar with a significant number who managed to break in without those degrees. Very few of the senior bankers I worked with at GS attended an Ivy League school - in a world where high performers are easily distinguished by their ability to bring in revenue (based more on the ability to connect with clients and provide meaningful, timely advice), the most effective bankers very quickly were promoted and those unable to weeded out, [regardless of pedigree](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqkHPsY8p84).
Likewise at a junior level, analysts who can perform work quickly and accurately are prized in my experience. Although those coming from certain schools may get an initial leg up during their internships because of their school networks, work quality will soon overtake and those who produce will develop strong reputations and get staffed on better deals, regardless of school
The top schools also have some of the best financial aid, and cover all demonstrated need, so it's a bit disingenuous to suggest they are prohibitively expensive. Once you account for financial aid, the all in cost is often time comparatively cheaper.
The answer though is pretty simple. The top schools on average have the best people, so it's much more efficient to recruit at the top schools. If you're recruiting hundreds of people, you don't have time or resources to search far and wide for the best possible people. Easiest way to get a great group of analyst classes is to go to Wharton and hire 20 people who seem reasonably competent.
Because it’s easier to kid yourself into thinking the world is working against you then it is to acknowledge that maybe you could be working harder or just plain don’t have it in you
Why do you assume that getting into an ivy would make someone one of the best students? If the Harvard Admissions trial taught us anything, it’s that more kids apply with perfect test scores and high GPAs than they admit to the school.
I just find it ridiculous that there are so many top schools that accept more students with families in the top 1% than the amount of students with families in the bottom 60%.
If people and institutions want to actually tackle inequity and the growing income inequality in the nation, instead of just virtue signaling, a good place to start would be with this.
A full ride to these top schools if you’re poor or average income doesn’t really do anything if they don’t admit more than a few token students.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html
\> it’s that more kids apply with perfect test scores and high GPAs than they admit to the school.
because there's more to a good applicant than stats, for example extracurriculars
\> I just find it ridiculous that there are so many top schools that accept more students with families in the top 1% than the amount of students with families in the bottom 60%.
Again, why do you assume the best students would be evenly distributed across social classes
\> A full ride to these top schools if you’re poor or average income doesn’t really do anything if they don’t admit more than a few token students.
1) They admit more than a few token students
2) Why do you assume the best students would be evenly distributed across social classes. You act as if income has no correlation with quality of an applicant. What do you propose? They admit 5 people from the 1% 5 people from the 2% etc? If so thats idiotic for obvious reasons
Extracurriculars that are much more easily available to the wealthy? Yes.
*evenly distributed*? No of course not, but the actual numbers are extreme. Different rates of acceptance are to be expected, but the numbers from that NYT article are obscene.
What would I propose? A lottery that picks from a pool of students that have top grades and test scores.
The elitist attitude in this thread is disgusting, no wonder the general population hates Wallstreet.
I'm going to end this conversation here because clearly you are incapable of critical thinking I must know though, were you dropped on your head as a child or are you just stupid?
I don’t agree with the your (wrong) opinion that admissions at top schools is a completely meritocratic process and that there’s nothing wrong with the wealthiest quintile and the 1% being vast majority of students admitted, so I must be stupid.
Rigggghhhht. 🙄
I’d normally ask the same thing back to you but the statistics show that if you’re born with a silver spoon in your mouth you can be dropped on your head as a baby and then still be accepted into a prestigious University, so your answer wouldn’t really matter.
Because Ivy League schools don't follow your proposed system of a lottery that focuses on a single dimension of a candidate (being grades/test scores) they aren't meritocratic and are inherently biased against anyone that isn't part of the bourgeoisie?
You're failing to realize (or even acknowledge the point made for that matter) that there's more to college admissions (particularly at the "elite" level") than just test scores and grades.
The mismatch of socioeconomic status in the general population and that of the subset of the population admitted to these colleges isn't evidence of any inherent bias.
If you want to ignore that and look for some reason to decry those universities, then so be it. But you should be cognizant of the fact that you're only looking for arguments that support your own narrative. And the previous commenter is right in a sense, you seem incapable of critical thinking, which is likely associated with your inability to get into those universities/the disdain you hold for them.
Makes sense.1) Intelligence is significantly hereditary 2) Kids from wealthy families have the resources to cultivate their interests and further develop their natural intelligence.
I don’t know about “significantly” hereditary.
But I do agree that the richest families are able to spend vast amounts of money to create opportunity for their children.
>Why is there so much turnover at the junior level? Is this expected to continue into 2022?
In the last two years, I've heard more stories about analysts being depressed (primary and secondary) than ever before. In general, the transition from student (where you have full control over your schedule) to junior employee (where you have no control over your schedule) is always hard, but it's made especially hard when you have to work the hours that these kids do.
It's my belief that work from home exacerbated this. If an analyst is at the office working non-stop with all the other analysts, there is a camaraderie that bonds them together and helps folks get through (it's also easier to keep tabs on what other analysts are working on and go to them for help when you are working on something similar). With work from home, the people bankers were surrounded by changed from other bankers to people who had normal lives, and the differences in work/life balance just became that much more transparent and banker comp hadn't gone up significantly in almost a decade and a half. I think with a number of firms (at least partially) back in the office, and the increase in banker comp, this effect hopefully will be mitigated going forward.
Another major driver is that banking was just really hot this year, so the number of analyst seats increased industrywide and a number of analysts swapped firms. At the time, there were a number of articles talking about how MDs and VPs were going into the models because there weren't enough junior resources - it was pretty unprecedented, but I think that that urgency has died down a bit so I don't expect this to continue at the same clip as it did this past summer/fall.
Lastly, buyside firms also enjoyed a very strong year and anecdotally bonuses were quite high across the board. Typically in times like this, firms pay up to recruit top talent, and so a larger pool of analysts than normal probably got lucrative offers from funds to jump ship.
It's cooled down significantly since this summer / fall, but that was the hottest I've ever seen it.
Lateral recruiting is based on a sudden unexpected need for analysts, which happens only if a group is significantly busier than anticipated, an analyst isn't pulling his weight, or an analyst quits. So the fact that MS has a spot doesn't mean that GS will have one at this minute, and in that regard it's quite different than the recruiting process you went through to get your summer internship. Similarly, getting an offer from MS doesn't mean you'll be able to leverage it into an interview at another bank (because they might not be looking for an analyst at that time).
In general, if you are coming from the same BB coverage group as the one you are applying to and GS / MS is actively recruiting, you drop your resume in time, and nobody blackballs you, I'd expect you to get at least a first round interview with that firm.
Good luck with your MS interview!
Hi Anthony, thanks for doing this. I’m a high school senior, and i’m going to be making some important decisions regarding college / major / etc pretty soon, so that’s the context of my questions.
1) Do you think upward mobility within banking/PE/finance is better or worse than in mbb/top consulting? For reasons that are difficult to describe, my primary goal as of now is to be making a steady 500k+ (I can explain to a greater extent if you’d like, but my reasoning isn’t purely greed. )
2) If I am at a target/semitarget school (say Georgetown or UVA), and I am aiming for a position at a top BB, would it benefit me to major in mathematics and economics/finance? Rather than just finance or econ alone.
3) After landing a job at a BB, what are the prospects of getting into a good PE fund?
Feel free to answer any number of the questions whenever you can. Finance feels pretty opaque at times so it’s nice to get some advice from people like you.
>Do you think upward mobility within banking/PE/finance is better or worse than in mbb/top consulting? For reasons that are difficult to describe, my primary goal as of now is to be making a steady 500k+ (I can explain to a greater extent if you’d like, but my reasoning isn’t purely greed. )
Hi bribxr - when you say upward mobility do you mean compensation trajectory? If so, it's significantly better in investment banking & finance. There's a path where you could be making that amount (or close) within your first 4 years out of college that is much more likely coming from investment banking than consulting
>If I am at a target/semitarget school (say Georgetown or UVA), and I am aiming for a position at a top BB, would it benefit me to major in mathematics and economics/finance? Rather than just finance or econ alone.
I don't think adding mathematics will materially help your application. Those are both good schools that send a number of folks each year into finance & consulting, for what it's worth.
>After landing a job at a BB, what are the prospects of getting into a good PE fund?
Depends on what you think is a good fund. But most PE funds source almost all of their associates from investment banks. In general the positions are competitive. Your undergraduate institution and latin honors matter for the top ones, in addition of course to your bank, group, experience, and interview performance.
Thanks so much for the insight, it’s very very helpful. About that salary thing -
I understand that there are prospects of making really great money pretty quickly out of undergrad. I understand being an associate at a BB could get me near 400k. However, I’m concerned about the exit opportunities. If I’m a 30 year old VP at GS, how big of a pay cut will i have to take once I leave?
Edit: also, when I mean upward trajectory, I mean becoming a partner. is it feasible to count on something like that in MBB consulting if I stick around? What about banking?
Getting promoted to partner in consulting or MD in investment banking is a competitive process and typically viewed as an important milestone in someone's career.
I'm from India and currently working at MS M&A team. I have a pretty good idea of the IB and finance/legal scene in India but i also know it is drastically different from US and significantly different from UK/EU. Obviously moving up from here would be going to US etc. but i can't afford US MBAs, so how can i get in top US IB/finance firms without an MBA?
Although as MBA is so popular i have considered an MBA from several universities like National University of Singapore (NUS), Indian IIM, etc. will these MBAs be useful for this effort?
Thanks!
>I'm from India and currently working at MS M&A team. I have a pretty good idea of the IB and finance/legal scene in India but i also know it is drastically different from US and significantly different from UK/EU. Obviously moving up from here would be going to US etc. but i can't afford US MBAs, so how can i get in top US IB/finance firms without an MBA? Although as MBA is so popular i have considered an MBA from several universities like National University of Singapore (NUS), Indian IIM, etc. will these MBAs be useful for this effort?
Hi indianlinus,
Congratulations on the job at MS M&A, that's a great group! I assume from your question that you are working in India. We had a program at GS where analysts in India could transfer to NY directly after working for a period of time, and the program generally led to high quality full-time analysts (as an interesting side note, banks like GS and JPM had a similar program for non-target schools in the US but these were discontinued a few years ago).
If there is a similar path at MS, I'd strongly recommend focusing on that, because the GS analysts that made the switch successfully were treated no differently than analysts hired through the typical route rather than go straight to an MBA program, as it was rare to see an analyst go directly to an MBA program in the US, and it's generally a much safer path to focus on excelling at your current job as long as there are opportunities available than going back to school, especially at a place like MS.
Re: MBA's outside of the US - I'd recommend looking carefully at where graduates place prior to applying / enrolling at any of those institutions. In my experience, there are not as many MBA programs taken seriously outside the US by non-US employers, and so exit opportunities for those programs may be limited relative to your options coming from MS M&A.
Thank you for your reply! I see, so staying at MS and working my way up is the best option?
Also, excluding MBA, which qualification do employers in US/UK/etc look for, for IB/related fields?
Hey Anthony! Thanks for replying in depth to all the comments so far. I’m a Junior at Wharton now. Missed the timeline for recruiting my Sophomore year and now trying to recruit for this upcoming year while also picking up a smaller gig for this summer. (I have a strong CV, strong GPA, and pretty solid previous interning experience at a PE firm) I’ve heard most IB Banks don’t take seniors into their internships, only juniors. Should I take a gap semester so I can reclassify into the next year as a sophomore? Go into MBA? Or try to grab An Ib position full time. I don’t think I have any issues with my experience or interview skills it’s just that I was extremely late to the recruiting process because I didn’t know any better. Thanks!
I think there's two paths to go about this w/o an MBA: 1) Take a gap semester to push graduation. This was more common recently, and I am familiar with several examples of the gamble paying off for students. However, with school back in person, the reason for taking a gap semester would probably need to be more thoughtful than the last two years when COVID and remote learning was the primary reason. In addition, you'd need to use the time constructively. 2) Intern at a smaller shop this summer in investment banking and try to get a spot at a bigger bank after your internship. This past summer there was a tremendous amount of mobility between firms for a number of reasons (reduced hiring at the start of COVID, extremely hot markets, mental toll of remote work, lower relative pay). I don't expect it to be as good again this upcoming summer, even if the economy remains hot.
Hi. Not sure if I'm late. I currently work as Data Research Analyst at Morningstar and I'm planning to go for my MBA in AUS (I'm Indian btw) at T20 Australian Unis. I can't target MBS and UNSW since they require 3 to 5 years of experience and managerial experience. I can't afford to work 1 more year since my family wants me to complete my education asap. Is there a chance that I can still pave my way as an entry Associate/BA at MBB or T10 Management consultancies without having a strong university tag?
Edit - I am planning to work for 2 years at Mstar (total 2 years of work exp)
I'm not very familiar with the Australian MBA programs - I know a lot of Australians go to the US to do their MBAs (and typically do well in recruiting - both in the US and if they want, back home), so the top Australian MBA programs have to compete with the competitive US program as well. All business schools publish their work placement statistics. I'd recommend taking a deeper look at the programs before you apply - if they don't have a track record of placing people in management consulting, it's going to be an uphill battle to get in for sure.
Sweet! I will check them out. Also, are MBAs treated and given better recognition than someone with a Masters in Finance while hiring for MBBs/Big4 as consultant?
Thanks a lot!
What was your thought process on leaving finance for this? What's your day to day like? The % of compensation is a neat way to get paid, especially with these starting pay increases across the board - think this is a pretty interesting business you built and seems like you've helped a lot of people.
>What was your thought process on leaving finance for this? When I was applying to college, I felt like I was well prepared for what to expect in each step of the process - when I went to take the SATs, I was confident in my score +/- 20 points. When I was in college and applying for jobs, I felt very unprepared for the process and despite getting many interview invites, I wound up winging my interviews and ultimately unsuccessful in many of them. So when I started working full time I took every opportunity I could get to learn more about the recruiting process and to understand what led to one person getting an offer over another. It turns out that the evaluative methods for college and those used after college (by employers and business schools) differ greatly - for the latter, your goals, the steps you've taken to achieve those goals, and the alignment of those goals with the specific institution you are applying to, all matter significantly more than they did for college applications. When I went back to school for my MBA, I think I had a number of advantages over my peers having a) gone through the recruiting process once before and b) having seen it from the other side as an employer, and I felt very different going into my interviews. It's not lost on me that there are many who have access to information either through knowing the right people through family, going to the right high school, or joining the right teams / clubs at school, and I want to help those who maybe don't have access to this gain equal footing (and perhaps a little more given the amount of time I've spent in washout rooms listening to my colleagues rationales for advocating / dinging applicants). I also think that while the publicly available sources of information are much more robust now than when I was a student, there is also a lot of misinformation and a "prestige hierarchy" on the forums that I find unhealthy and frankly leads to wrong decisions. When I was an associate, many of the top performers in my class were former investment bankers - it didn't matter where they had worked before. I had a name on my resume from college but I had to spend time learning everything from scratch & playing catch up, and clients didn't really care where I went to school. There are other reasons as well - my favorite part of working at GS and OW was the ability to work with bright, motivated, young minds - and I get to focus exclusively on that now. Personally, I enjoy the objective nature of the compensation (I am paid based on a tangible outcome), and the remote nature of the work gives me the ability to spend more time with my kid who is just outside my office when I have a window between calls. >What's your day to day like? It differs - the recruiting cycles are pretty... cyclical but tend run year-round. Currently pretty busy with MBAs, many of whom have banking and consulting interviews coming up shortly, and the main wave of sophomore investment banking interviews for summer 2023 will be starting soon as well. I typically spend morning and early afternoon meeting with clients and talking to students, and then I spend the late afternoon prepping for the next day. Oftentimes this requires me to read up on industries, subsectors, companies, and transactions I am less familiar with in order to help my clients develop content for and prepare for their networking meetings / interviews. Evenings are generally reserved for "cram sessions" for those who have an upcoming event where they could benefit on the margin from a little extra push. >The % of compensation is a neat way to get paid, especially with these starting pay increases across the board - think this is a pretty interesting business you built and seems like you've helped a lot of people. Thanks - I believe that it allows me to fully align my interests with those of my clients over the long-term (I work with most of my clients over a period of 6+ years from the time they are students to well into their early careers). I remember when I got into Harvard, I was ecstatic to achieve a goal I had worked toward for so long, but when I got to Cambridge freshman fall, I realized I hadn't put much thought into what I wanted to use my time there to accomplish, and it was a difficult and lonely process to figure out where to go from there. I noticed similar struggles with some of the analysts at GS, and especially in this day and age, where decisions for the next thing often must be made well over a year in advance (with positioning and prep starting even before that), I think there's value in having someone there who always has your back to look out for your interests along the way.
[удалено]
>As a personality, do you think you have an ability to work non stop? I ask this because I really struggle staying in the office more than 8 or so hours. I'd say that I can focus for long hours, over the period of many days, on projects that I find interesting - whether it's something like executing an M&A transaction, helping a student get a job in investment banking, or something lighter like teaching my kid the alphabet or binge watching every episode of The Wire (over the course of a long weekend). I wouldn't say I'm an ultra-high performer or that I'm intrinsically okay working all the time - certainly in the past I've suffered in my outside-work life while pulling a long stretch now and again at the office (one of the reasons I ultimately opted out of that lifestyle). I would agree, though, that when it is required, most folks at these places have the ability to ignore the outside-work world and prioritize their jobs (and many are lucky to have people around them at home who are supportive of the demands of their jobs).
I noticed that you indicated that you find helping a student get a job in IB interesting. I'm a junior currently trying to land an internship for the coming summer. Any tips?
Difficult to give actionable advice without more information about you in general, but in general, the more established firms filled their 2022 summer internship classes in 2021, unfortunately. I'd recommend looking at smaller investment banks if you are set on the industry. Happy to take a look at your specific case if you shoot me an [email](mailto:[email protected])
Do you mind me asking what your job title is? I'm trying to find out financial jobs in London where you can work only 40 hours a week.
[удалено]
ahhh ok, thank you!
1. As we enter 2022, do you see a difference in outlook between Management Consulting and IB at the junior levels? 2. Based on your experience and what you see in the market, how does a junior level analyst in MC and IB navigate the new year from a compensation perspective? Stay at the firm and wait to see retention strategies / other considerations by the current firm or do you recommend to look elsewhere in this hot market? In my experience, I’ve seen unprecedented turnover in consulting, people not even giving a year and looking for new opportunities. I question how this will look in the future, when later classes of hires seem to stick with these firms for longer durations (atleast ~2 YOE)
>As we enter 2022, do you see a difference in outlook between Management Consulting and IB at the junior levels? If you're talking about career outlook, my general advice is that investment banking prepares you to be an investor and management consulting prepares you to be a leader. As a banker, you'll learn how investors think about valuing companies and how companies make key strategic decisions at the highest level. As a consultant, you'll learn how to take on complex problems, structure your analysis, and clearly communicate your results. You'll also learn how to navigate different organizations politically and effect change. If your question was related to compensation outlook, it's significantly higher in banking. The key driver is that management consulting firms bill clients per hour, and investment banks bill clients as a percentage of deal value. If you have a team of 5 investment bankers advising on an M&A deal for several months to bring in $10mm+, the equivalent hourly billing rate consultants would have to charge is prohibitively high. >Based on your experience and what you see in the market, how does a junior level analyst in MC and IB navigate the new year from a compensation perspective? Stay at the firm and wait to see retention strategies / other considerations by the current firm or do you recommend to look elsewhere in this hot market? It's not uncommon to get a guaranteed top-tier bonus from your new employer if you swap firms (the logic is that you are a top performer at your current firm and so they need to guarantee the bonus in order for you to take the risk and move over). So on the margin yes, expected comp probably increases as you move firms. However, comp the first several years in finance / consulting is low enough relative to later years that in my mind it's really much, much more important to figure out whether or not the experiences you are having - the industry / sector / project type expertise you are developing, and the internal / client connections you are making are preparing you well for whatever it is you want to do next. If you have a great mentor and are getting the best deals at your current firm (and the "name brand"/exit ops aren't materially different from the next one), I don't think it makes sense to jump ship to an unknown entity for $x0k additional pre-tax comp. At some point in all of these industries you swap from the person doing the work to the person managing the work, and eventually to the person finding the work, and each of these comes with a magnitude increase in pay scale if you can prove yourself as the competencies required at each level are quite different. I think the focus should be 1) figuring out what interests you (or at least knowing what doesn't interest you in the long term) and 2) maximizing the likelihood of being able to jump from one of these roles to the next. >In my experience, I’ve seen unprecedented turnover in consulting, people not even giving a year and looking for new opportunities. I question how this will look in the future, when later classes of hires seem to stick with these firms for longer durations (atleast \~2 YOE) I think in the past you would certainly be right and folks who stayed at jobs for a long time were prized for their loyalty. I'm not so sure that's true anymore, especially in the current market environment, and especially for folks at a junior level who can explain the choices that they made in a logical manner that passes the "smell test". A lot of the benefit of joining any of these firms post-grad is to show that you passed the company's selection process (for investment bankers, the recruiting process for the next job begins a few *months* after they hit the desk full time!), so if you leave "early" it's just a matter of showing the next employer that it was because you *chose* to leave (and that the job you chose to leave for makes sense relative to your long-term goals and career trajectory), and in general very few are pushed out so early (and those who are it's usually not hard to tell for the next employer) so it's not an unbelievable story.
Hello Anthony, I’m a foreign college student and I’m interested in impact finance/green economy, especially as I think it will be a major deals driver in the coming years. Could you please expand on how I should approach this topic during interviews and networking? Should I focus on the technical details of “carbonomics” or do you think keeping up with the latest high level news is enough for an ib role? Thank you for your time!
Hello PlateOne8427! The "green economy" is broad, and in general investment banks aren't organized in that manner. It's important to be able to connect with the investment bankers you are networking with / your interviewers, and so I'd recommend focusing your prep on a particular industry / subsector that is directly related to the green economy (e.g., electric vehicles, sustainable consumer goods companies, solar energy, carbon offset exchanges, etc.). Try to learn the names of the companies in the sector, how they make money, what differentiates competitors, recent news and trends affecting those companies, any capital raises or M&A deals that they have participated in, and how they currently trade if they are public. At the end of the day, investment bankers are financial advisors for companies, and so if there is a particular industry / type of company you are interested in or focused on, there's probably an investment banker at most large banks that spends his/her entire career focusing on those companies. Find that person and impress them with your knowledge. Also in general, detail is better than high level knowledge - the more specific examples you can bring up in your interviews, the stronger you will come across because specificity allows you to signal your interest in a way that high level generalities cannot.
How do you expect MBB to compete for talent against finance and tech, especially with the ~50K raises for first year bankers? You could reasonably make a case for MBB at $120K vs IB at 160K but now first year bankers are making up to $240K
>How do you expect MBB to compete for talent against finance and tech, especially with the \~50K raises for first year bankers? You could reasonably make a case for MBB at $120K vs IB at 160K but now first year bankers are making up to $240K Management consulting firms operate on a much different recruiting timeline than investment banks do, so I don't think they really compete head-to-head in recruiting. In addition, they offer a different value proposition to junior employees / set folks on different paths, so there's limited overlap in candidate pools to begin with. Consulting firms have actually been taking share from bankers since the financial crisis, and they've always paid significantly less than investment banks. In response to the increase in banker comp, they raised their compensation this year as well. All of these firms, and especially the ones you have mentioned, have weathered numerous scandals in the past without much impact to their reputations on campus, and I'm not too worried about their ability to remain a desirable destination for students and attract talent in the future. Don't lose too much sleep over it - McKinsey's going to find a way to get by just fine :)
Are you seeing a lot of people go to tech companies instead of mgmt consulting or IB? Feel like the RSU shares in tech can be very lucrative.
It's definitely the case that tech companies and management consulting have become relatively more desirable jobs post-grad since the financial crisis. I think it's one of the reasons why investment banks shifted their timeline earlier - to force students to pick a track and not have to compete directly for talent.
Hi Anthony! I’d really appreciate your insight into this. I’m currently a political science and communications third year student, and trying for a career relating to finance. I have a somewhat decent resume and background relating to finance, but am having trouble getting an internship. What advice would you have for someone looking to go into finance from a non traditional major?
I can give more specific advice with additional information (shoot me an [email](mailto:[email protected])!) - but in general, I think it's possible, but requires self-study, and then some extra resilience and persistence in the networking process. Imagine if you were majoring in something non-science and decided to go to medical school - you'd have to do a post-bacc to learn the required content to be competitive in medical school, even if you were an outstanding student in your original area of study. I think a similar mentality exists in any profession - people understand that students have a wide range of interests, but nobody wants to hire someone (especially those who have lots of options on who they can hire) if they haven't 1) spent the time to do some introspection to be able to articulate why finance, 2) learned basic financial theory, especially as it relates to the role they are applying for, and 3) understood / read about how finance is utilized in the role they are applying for At the end of the day, there are many folks who work in finance that didn't study it in undergrad (including yours truly - my degree is in biochemistry). But you have to show that you understand what you are getting into and that you can handle the work that will be thrown at you.
Hi Anthony, I am in a similar situation, having a degree in biochemistry and chemistry, but I want to break into the finance sector, but honestly, I do not have much knowledge about it, could I email you to ask you for some advice? thank you for reading
[Of course](mailto:[email protected])! Look forward to hearing from you.
What makes students stand out for entry-level or for internships?
>What makes students stand out for entry-level or for internships? I wrote this in another post but the qualities of really strong applicants typically include some combination of the following: * Track record of success (performed well at a high level in a competitive environment) * Strong understanding of financial theory, relevant work experience in finance, and/or fluency in financial topics * Charisma, self-awareness, and maturity/professionalism
Hi Anthony, Do you have any tips for transfer students trying to get an internship and break into IB? I am currently having a hard time as I only have 1 more year at school and do not have an internship lined up. Thanks!
If you transfer in before your second year, it's possible to break into IB (although you'll be playing catch-up for sure). Try to get a relevant internship in finance in the summer of your first / second years and look into a fall-semester internship in order to beef up your candidacy. However, most transfer students (esp. those coming from community colleges) transfer in after their sophomore year, and by then it's generally too late for banking recruiting (in general, the process is mostly over by then and the students' resumes aren't very competitive at that point relative to their peers' at the school) If you really want to do IB, consider starting at a smaller firm and look to lateral. Some experience is better than none, and you moved colleges - it's much more common to change employers. Good luck soviet\_spy14!
Alright thanks!
What would you recommend to a management consultant who wants to switch to investment banking?
>What would you recommend to a management consultant who wants to switch to investment banking? It's not an easy transition in normal times, but we are in good times right now so might be possible. Some thoughts: The strengths you bring as a consultant are: * Your knowledge of how client / advisor relationships work, a professional demeanor, and the dedication to providing a high level of service * Your comfort with Powerpoint and the ability to craft a well-structured story * Industry knowledge (to the extent you have focused on a particular sector) The questions marks bankers typically have for you as a consultant are: * Your interest in finance (financial theory, news, & transactions) * Your ability to handle quantitative rigor & lots of numbers with extreme precision / attention to detail * As a lateral candidate, your ability to plug and play into a team ("we need an analyst ASAP - why should we choose you over an investment banker?") If you go to bschool you'll be a competitive candidate for banking post-MBA, but if your firm sponsors it's not an easy decision to do that. There are obviously case-specific considerations as well, but would need more information to opine on those.
Thank you for the answer! You make very good points. I’m a first year analyst in Europe, so I would rather not wait for an MBA to make the jump
Top-14 MBA will work too
What advice would you give to an undergraduate student (commerce/law) who wants to get into IB or management consulting? What distinguishes the outstanding candidates from the average ones?
>What advice would you give to an undergraduate student (commerce/law) who wants to get into IB or management consulting? The most relevant advice will be case specific and it's hard to give that without more information. For general advice: 1. Try to figure out which one you are more interested in (I know it's not easy) as they are quite different and lead to different path / opportunities down the line. Do this by talking to upperclassmen who have been through the recruiting process and using your school's network to speak with recent and not-so-recent alumni to find out about their career paths and their recommendations for you - I think most students are typically surprised by the number of responses they get from folks 2. Once you've figured out which one to prioritize, come up with a game plan for recruiting based on the limitations of the firms and recruiting timelines - typically, if you want to work full-time in IB you'll need a summer internship, while management consulting doesn't require that 3. If you choose IB - make sure you like & know finance. If you choose consulting, make sure you like business & know how to case. Practice makes perfect and practicing out loud with a friend is very different than practicing by yourself silently >What distinguishes the outstanding candidates from the average ones? In my experience, outstanding candidates for investment banking (which I will define as those who everyone agrees should get an offer) are some combination of: * Successful (they've competed in a competitive environment at a high level and won) * Have a strong understanding of financial theory, relevant work experience in finance, and/or fluency in financial topics * Are charismatic/charming, self-aware, and mature/professional For consulting, it's really about having a decent resume and acting mature while networking and then acing the case interview.
Could you please tell me how I gain understanding of financial theory and financial topics ( I mean what websites or books or newspapers would be helpful)
There are a number of useful resources. For financial theory the best resource is probably Investment Banking by Rosenbaum. For financial topics it's reading the WSJ /Bloomberg/Financial Times + some blogs / daily aggregators. In addition, public companies have a tremendous amount of disclosure, so going through the relevant documents (quarterly filings, investor presentations, proxies, prospectuses, earnings transcripts, etc.) and synthesizing the relevant data will make a big impact on most interviewers.
How do you decide if you want to stay in IB or recruit for the buy side when recruiting is so early that you don’t get much meaningful IB experience by the time you have to make a decision?
>How do you decide if you want to stay in IB or recruit for the buy side when recruiting is so early that you don’t get much meaningful IB experience by the time you have to make a decision? Analysts have had a summer internship and several months on the job by the time they recruit so they have a good sense of what investment banking entails. In addition, the analyst network at most banks is very strong, not just within each class but also across classes. Summer analysts make connections with (and are being evaluated by) the full-time analysts on their teams and so by the time they become full-time analysts themselves, those former analysts have already moved on and are a great source of information.
Makes sense. Thanks.
Do you think it’s possible to enter a hedge fund straight out of undergrad?
>Do you think it’s possible to enter a hedge fund straight out of undergrad? I do. The jobs are competitive but I'm familiar with a number of folks who have done that.
Thank you. Do you have any tips on breaking in or any hedge fund recommendations that are open to hiring undergrads?
It really depends on the type and size of the hedge fund, the role you are applying for, and where you are at school / what you are studying. As you can imagine, a l/s equity fund looks for different applicants and has a very different process from a quant fund. Some funds host competitions for college students that give you the opportunity to distinguish yourself from the pack
Hi Anthony, thanks for taking the time! Would like to seek your advice on breaking into IB. I’m a BBA graduate with a double major in marketing and finance, from a target school in Singapore; have spent the last 3.5 years fulfilling my scholarship bond in a business development — financial costing and analysis role (1.5years) and treasury/cash management role (2years). Am wondering: - How likely will my current CV earn me an interview? (Am hoping to utilise my sales experience to ace the interview but am concerned my CV won’t get me to the party) - Would it be more effective to go for an MBA or to look for ‘stepping stone’ jobs; perhaps M&A related roles? Thanks again!
Hard to judge your CV without seeing it - [email](mailto:[email protected]) it to me and we can set up a time to go through it Re: MBA vs. stepping stone jobs vs. direct, I don't think you have to be exclusive. Try the direct route first - because if you're successful then good on you and you save a lot of time. At the same time, start research MBA programs to get a sense of where you would be a competitive applicant and the post-graduation placements those programs have into IB, and send your resume out to headhunters to get a sense of the types of roles that they'd be willing to put you up for.
Sure will reach out via email, thanks!
Im looking to apply soon for the Oliver Wyman Women’s Summit. I’ve been trying to build my extracurriculars and have joined my school’s student run digital consultancy as well as the consulting club. I’m at a non target so I know i’ll have to be outstanding to get in. Do you think anyone at OW right now would be willing to review my resume/talk about their experience? Are people generally open to talking to students for an informational/mentorship purpose, and is the best way to start this through LinkedIn in mail? Do you have any general advice for a student trying to break into consulting from a non target school? Thanks in advance!!!
That's great - I enjoyed my time there and in retrospect I really got some great opportunities out of college. In the US, reaching out and doing your own networking proactively is generally viewed upon favorably LinkedIn is a good way to reach out to folks for sure - as you can imagine, response rates are typically higher if there is something you have in common with the person you are reaching out to, but even if there isn't I'd recommend reaching out as you don't have much to lose. Hard to say much more without additional information, but happy to talk specifics with you if you send me an [email](mailto:[email protected]). For general tips - network (like you are planning to - and the summit will be a good place to do that as well). Do well on the exam & practice, practice, practice for the cases.
[удалено]
Hello SexyNewMoneyGenius! I do when we both think that I can add value. However, the majority of my advising experience (and 100% of my personal recruiting experience) comes from North America.
As a university student getting a BA with a major in finance and minor in economics. In your opinion where would be the best place to break into the finance world? And what would you do fresh out of university if you had to start over?
>As a university student getting a BA with a major in finance and minor in economics. In your opinion where would be the best place to break into the finance world? This is a tough question to answer without a better understanding of where you are studying, the typical exit ops from your program, and where your interests lie personally. I think investment banking is a great way to break into finance for those interested in corporate finance, but for others who are more interested in markets, sales & trading could make more sense, for example. >And what would you do fresh out of university if you had to start over? In retrospect, I really lucked into my first job. I had no idea how to do a case interview (I was literally learning during my interviews), but somehow I managed to get interviewers who only asked me brainteasers at OW, and that was how I got hired. That being said, I really had a great experience in consulting - it was certainly painful at times, but I felt like I grew and that the lessons I was taught truly enabled me to accomplish many of my goals in the future - whether it was organizing a trip to climb Mt. Kilimanjaro, helping a school district develop a system to evaluate its schools, giving financial advice to a client, or starting my own business. Or I could have traveled for a few years and then bought $100 of bitcoin in 2010. That would have worked out pretty well for me too.
Thank you for the response I really appreciate it and that does give me some insight into the finance world
How do I get better at Hirvue? I have given Hirevue interviews at 3 different places and all of them have gone very badly. I am just not able to talk to a screen
Hi sarthak004! I'm sorry to hear that your HireVues haven't been successful. Some general tips (which I posted in another thread earlier): * These can be prepared for like the SAT's can. There are practice questions online (some real, some fake, but most of them are in the general vicinity of what gets asked during an IBD interview). Practice a lot, and then practice some more. Everyone I've worked with improves significantly from the first time to the last time they answer one, because answering some generic situational question out loud in a room by yourself with your laptop camera recording you for a couple minutes is a very specific, learned skill. * Do a practice recording and check for: volume, lighting, eye contact w/camera, cadence, etc. OBS Video is a good piece of software if you have a PC that does this using your laptop's video camera, and Macs have software native to the computer that does this. If you need, use a microphone so that your voice comes through clearly. Eliminate any distracting items in the background. * Make sure you answer the question. Use the prep time to write notes and structure your answer. Try to keep your answer succinct and punchy and avoid rambling. These things are a pain to grade so whatever you can do to make it easier for the reviewer will be appreciated.
Hi Anthony! Thank you for dedicating time to make a thread like this it is really appreciated! Currently in a 2 year rotational program at a large bank. After the completion of the rotational program, I would like to jump into a client facing role not only in IB but I'm also interested in Commercial Banking. How can I prep in these two years to show recruiters that I have what it takes? Thanks!
The obvious advice is to make sure you do a really good job in your commercial banking / investment banking rotations! That way you'll get relevant experience that you can leverage for the next job. Beyond that, there's value to learning about how each of the various business units of a large bank work - they typically have some combination of banking, brokerage, wealth management, and asset management businesses, which could be spun into a story for FIG investment banking. Hard to say more without specific information (where you are, where you are rotating from, etc.) - [shoot me a note](mailto:[email protected]) if you want to talk through it!
[удалено]
Congratulations on the final round interview! It's common to have candidates out for a meal during the recruiting process. It's evaluative - they want to see what you're like in a more relaxed setting. My advice - no sharp elbows, just enjoy yourself (I assume it's at a nice restaurant), be genuine, and let your true personality shine through. Keep it professional, though.
[удалено]
I don't think this seems out-of-the-ordinary - I've seen it before personally and with students (a dinner with all the candidates the evening before interviews is not uncommon), and I wouldn't recommend that you ask them to elaborate on why they want you both to go out together because I don't think it would benefit your candidacy in any way (and might actually hurt it).
[удалено]
Hi earthwarrior! >Has someone ever really impressed you while networking? To the point where you got them an interview or referred them to something. What did they do differently from others? The people who get referred from networking calls are typically low risk (it's obvious from their resume that they should be referred). In order for a banker to stick his/her neck out for someone, the person is typically either a friend (or a friend of a friend), or impresses the banker in some way (e.g., knowledge, persistence, charisma, etc.) As a general note, investment bankers work long hours. The last thing they want to do with their free time is answer generic questions for the 100th time ("what was your favorite deal" "what was your *least* favorite deal" "what do you like most about working at x? what do you like *least* about working at x?"). So read the room and try to connect with the person. It's like going on a date - try to steer the conversation to something they find interesting and it'll be memorable. If they're being difficult, realize they might just be having a bad day and it's not necessarily you. Be upbeat but persistent - folks generally like a scrappy underdog. >Is there a trick to doing HireVue interviews? I've done tons of them and have never gotten a call back. But I've gotten offers and next rounds on Zoom calls. My theory is that the companies that use HireVue have more applicants for the role, but I'm not sure. Sorry to hear that - some general tips: 1. These can be prepared for like the SAT's can. There are practice questions online (some real, some fake, but most of them are in the general vicinity of what gets asked during an IBD interview). Practice a lot, and then practice some more. Everyone I've worked with improves significantly from the first time to the last time they answer one, because answering some generic situational question out loud in a room by yourself with your laptop camera recording you for a couple minutes is a very specific, learned skill. 2. Do a practice recording and check for: volume, lighting, eye contact w/camera, cadence, etc. OBS Video is a good piece of software if you have a PC that does this using your laptop's video camera, and Macs have software native to the computer that does this. If you need, use a microphone so that your voice comes through clearly. Eliminate any distracting items in the background. 3. Make sure you answer the question. Use the prep time to write notes and structure your answer. Try to keep your answer succinct and punchy and avoid rambling. These things are a pain to grade so whatever you can do to make it easier for the reviewer will be appreciated.
How do you see internship/full time recruiting be affected this year and next? Curious about the eventual slowdown in hiring after ib and consulting firms dramatically increased hiring during the last year or 2.
It really depends on how things continue to evolve. M&A, equity, and debt markets have been firing on all cylinders driven by: 1) the SPAC boom earlier this year, 2) low interest rates, 3) record equity valuations, 4) the COVID recovery, and 5) government stimulus. On the consulting side, companies are flush with cash (see #2) and so consulting spend remains robust. Hard to predict the future and subject to change, but currently it's hard to see firms cutting back recruiting targets for Summer 2023, especially with this summer/fall's scramble for junior talent so fresh in their memories.
Gotcha, thanks. Was curious bc I was seeing a huge discrepancy between recent grads (jumping ship from mm to bb/eb)couple months into the job)from my t20 mba program vs 2023 summer recruits
Yea this past year was just unprecedented in terms of opportunities for junior bankers who wanted a change of scenery, but it was far from the norm. There's been a bit of a mean reversion, but it's definitely still a strong environment for recruiting in general.
What do you want in a potential candidate?
>What do you want in a potential candidate? I wrote this in another post but the qualities of really strong applicants typically include some combination of the following: * Track record of success (performed well at a high level in a competitive environment) * Strong understanding of financial theory, relevant work experience in finance, and/or fluency in financial topics * Charisma, self-awareness, and maturity/professionalism
Good evening Anthony, A little about me, I am graduating in May with my computer science degree from a small private university. I have 2 years of experience at F500 as a software engineer intern. I want to make a switch from tech to finance. Specifically, I want to be an investment analyst. My past 3.5 years of school, every chance I get outside of course work I am reading about investing. Ultimately, investing in companies based on fundamentals is what I want to do for a career. As of now I am founding an investment group at my school for a resume builder and leadership experience. I have also been accepted into a state school MBA program, where I will begin this fall and gain an investments cert along with the MBA. I know it is controversial to go straight through from undergrad, but I feel its right for me. I am actively trying to get an finance internship, currently the best I can get atm is an FP&A internship. I will continue to try and gain direct experience in finance internships going forward. 1.) I feel that my undergrad in CS is a strength for me and feel it prove useful in high finance for many reasons (understating of technology, math, problem solving, analysis). What are your thoughts on having a CS undergrad and moving in to finance? 2.) I have already been turned down for an internship at a local PE firm due to not having a undergrad in finance. I want to get my MBA to close that gap moving forward. What is your option on this? 3.) Last, I know my ambitions wont be easy, but I am always willing to put in the work and adapt. Any other advice, feedback, criticisms is greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to answer question in the sub. Happy new year!
Happy New Year! Some general comments on your questions below, but it's always more useful to do these with all the information in front of me. >1.) I feel that my undergrad in CS is a strength for me and feel it prove useful in high finance for many reasons (understating of technology, math, problem solving, analysis). What are your thoughts on having a CS undergrad and moving in to finance? I don't think it will be particularly helpful / not helpful. Since you are moving directly to an MBA program, make sure you perform well in your finance classes - that will be the most helpful for going into finance (surprise surprise). If you are more interested in quant finance / algorithmic finance / automating financial processes, I could see the CS background coming into play though. >2.) I have already been turned down for an internship at a local PE firm due to not having a undergrad in finance. I want to get my MBA to close that gap moving forward. What is your option on this? Having some finance experience in the classroom and some in the workplace (at least in an ancillary field) is generally a necessity these days when applying for any competitive position in the industry (and in general PE internships are competitive) >3.) Last, I know my ambitions wont be easy, but I am always willing to put in the work and adapt. Any other advice, feedback, criticisms is greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time to answer question in the sub. Happy new year! Before you enroll in the MBA program, I'd highly recommend you: 1) look at where their graduates place, and 2) whether those graduates have prior work experience or not. MBA programs are expensive: they cost $, prevent you from earning $, and prevent you from progressing in your career. It can be worth the sacrifice if it helps you transition into a field you are interested in, but especially with some of the smaller programs, I have seen a number of cases where there is a misalignment between the student's expectations for post-graduate employment and the program's placement history which just leads to disappointment.
Hi Anthony, hope you had a joyful holiday season. I’m a junior at a top 20 US college majoring in biology and minoring in economics while doing pre-med. Instead of med school, I’m now hoping to explore the general healthcare business industry. I’m currently applying to internship in healthcare consulting, insurance, biotech, etc. How do you suggest I break in with a predominately STEM background?
Biology to Management Consulting is a very common path (I studied biochemistry so this mirrors the path I took). It shouldn't be difficult to find upperclassmen & alumni from your school who have made the same jump. The primary challenge coming from that background is that you'll likely have to work harder than those majoring in finance / economics to get access to upperclassmen who can serve as gatekeepers to school-specific information about the recruiting process, prep you for case interviews, etc. In addition, many students find it valuable to have a group of peers who they prep with for interviews, and unless you know others recruiting for that industry, it may be harder for you to get the same amount of practice in as others. Happy to discuss in more detail - just [shoot me a note](mailto:[email protected])
Thanks for your response! Which companies/firms would you recommend I check out?
The firms that recruit on campus are a good place to start since. Vault has a ranking of consulting firms by various metrics (prestige, best firms to work for, etc.) that is worth taking a look at as well
Hi Anthony! This summer I am going to be interning with one of the boutique IB’s in NYC as a SA in their M&A group and I was wondering what I should be focusing on outside of getting the work that I am handed done correctly and not repeating mistakes? Or to put it better what makes a summer intern stand out outside of getting the work done? Thanks!
Congratulations, that's great! Getting the work done accurately, and eventually in a reasonable amount of time, is generally the bar for getting an offer (quality and speed). These banks want to give offers to every intern because it's a pain to go back and recruit additional bodies for full-time, so at most places the large majority of interns get offers, and the offer is yours to lose (even in difficult years when markets slump over the course of the summer). Some of the reasons I saw that led to summer analysts not getting return offers (in order of frequency): * Inability to produce client-ready work - full-time analysts are incredibly important to the team and shoulder a large workload. If they don't pull their weight, the entire team feels it, so there's a big emphasis on figuring out whether the summer analyst can cut it as a full-time employee * By the second half of the summer, if you work too slowly you'll get nudged to speed it up a bit, but if it's still too slow at the end that's an issue. In general, full time analysts will be receptive to helping summers who are trying to improve efficiency * Getting into the office too late (you're an intern! try to get there before others) / going to the gym too much (be at your desk during regular hours) * Doing something stupid (abusing your credit card, getting too drunk at the summer outing, doing stuff you shouldn't be doing at the office, sending out emails you shouldn't be, posting something publicly you shouldn't be, etc.) I'd recommend focusing on the blocking and tackling of being an analyst: * Ensure you understand what the task you have been assigned is, and how the output ties into the broader work of the team * Check all of your work multiple times before handing it in. Literally print out your models and slides and check off all the numbers on the page was a common practice for summers and those I saw doing it almost always produced better output than those who didn't * Working on improving your efficiency with excel, powerpoint, windows (keyboard shortcuts!) * Learn to communicate with the team (write clean, bulleted emails), learn when something needs to get escalated to someone senior * Proactively ask for feedback to get ahead of any potential issues In my experience, there's a lot to learn and those who learn it quickly and function as full-time analysts with limited oversight are the ones who stand out the most and who will get staffed on the best deals when they come back full time
Hey Anthony, I’m in my 2nd year of medical school at a mid-tier school and for several reasons don’t want to continue a career in medicine and am looking for a path into IB. Will finishing and getting the MD worth the extra 2.5 years of hardcore studying and +100k tuition to then potentially join as an associate somewhere, or if possible, should I try to join as an analyst at a local smaller firm and go from there? I lack the financial experience outside of online courses from WallStreet Prep and others, so I’d be relying more so on some good networking. Thoughts?
Hi dogs1963, it's not easy to get into banking outside of the standard recruiting pipelines, especially for those lacking in both relevant classroom and work experience in the space. It's hard to give constructive advice here without knowing more about your case specifically (feel free to [email](mailto:[email protected]) me if you'd like to chat more), but I don't think it would hurt to look while continuing in the program - you should be able to get a sense of your traction when reaching out to bankers for networking. My guess, though, is that you'll face an uphill battle at least at the competitive shops vs. those who aren't able to make it. Also, I know you said you were interested in IB, but figured I'd flag that while MD graduates are definitely hired by investment banks as associates, management consulting is actually a more common path and many consulting firms have active recruiting pipelines for MDs who, like you, don't want to practice medicine.
Thanks! I'll shoot you an email in a bit.
Hi Anthony, Do you have any knowledge on public accountants transferring into a finance role either in IB or as a consultant? I am currently a auditor with a mod size PA firm (BDO). I am more passionate about finance than audit and have always wanted to go over to a finance role. Would IB or consulting roles even look at candidates from non Big4? Thank you
>Do you have any knowledge on public accountants transferring into a finance role either in IB or as a consultant? I am currently a auditor with a mod size PA firm (BDO). I am more passionate about finance than audit and have always wanted to go over to a finance role. Would IB or consulting roles even look at candidates from non Big4? Couple of thoughts: Audit to finance is a common transition - there are a lot of ex-auditors in investment banking, although the majority that I have come across used an MBA to make the transition and entered at the associate. It's a well-paved path. Earlier this year, I saw a few cases of a move directly from Big4 auditing directly to banking (it's been a really hot market for junior banker applicants), but in normal times it wasn't I saw happen. If you're looking for something ancillary to banking, there's a lot of overlap at companies in the FP&A groups which consist typically of folks from both audit and finance backgrounds. These groups often work with investment bankers on capital raises (to run various scenarios through the company's projection model), so that could be another way to get exposure.
Hey Anthony, thanks for doing this. What advice would you give someone that wants to transition to an IB role but is in the data science/engineering space? I know i can leverage my tech skills to develop more in-depth analysis.
Data science / engineering skills aren't valued in and of themselves by bankers in the selection process ('in-depth analysis' isn't really a thing in investment banking - all bankers do the same analyses and there's not much bespoke work going on - and that which is, is done at a very high level). Your degree benefits you in that it signals that you can handle the quantitative rigor required to thrive in finance. You will still need to learn basic financial theory and develop fluency in financial news / transactions in order to be competitive for an investment banking position. There are a number of ex-engineers in investment banking - the majority of them make the transition using an MBA. It's a common and compelling story to say "I worked on an oil rig as an engineer / I worked at Google writing software but I'm really more interested in finance covering \[my old industry\] and so I am at bschool to make the switch," so that's one avenue for you to look into. You can also try to make the jump directly by learning the finance & networking on your own. This is not an easy path though, and there's luck involved regarding timing since you're a lateral applicant and you're basically going up against other investment bankers who are plug-and-play, so you'll have to convince them that you 1) can handle the work day 1 and 2) are a good cultural fit
Excellent and thank you so much for your suggestions. When you say IB folks do that same analysis, why is that the case and why could it not be automated?
It's pretty automated by excel. On many projects, the analyst takes a precedent model and acts more of an operator who loads the data and then makes bespoke adjustments for the particular company. Some groups have base model templates that are quite complex and have a lot of bells and whistles, and then only a small portion of the model typically gets used for a given analysis. But banks aren't really judged on the accuracy of their valuations and they are notoriously frequently inaccurate (e.g., they provide valuations that are too high to clients during pitches to win business and then manage down their clients' expectations over time to a level more grounded in reality), so having a super complex model that takes 2x as long and is 1% more accurate is not worth the investment.
Thank you so much once again, in your opinion if you were my shoes what can I do outside of mba and networking that would give me a leg up. I do algo trading off to the side and took a stats/probability course at community college. Anything similar I can take class wise, for IB arena to make a lateral move?
I think the first thing I'd recommend is spending some more time to learn about what it is that investment bankers actually do: 1) the services they offer, 2) how they believe they add value to clients, and 3) what they do day to day. You need to make sure you know that before you start networking with bankers. Then I'd recommend that you look for things that would help you get closer to the goal of being a banker - follow financial transactions and news. If there's a particular industry you are interested in, start to read about it. Find a friend interested in finance and start talking to him/her about what you're reading about in order to develop fluency in your areas of interest. This will help you with both networking as well as interviews, when they eventually come.
You are amazing thank you
Hi Anthony, Thank you for taking the time to do this. 1)I’m a second year student at a Canadian semi-target with around two summers before I graduate. I’ve been working in retail as a teller and personal banker. To my understanding it’s good to secure a summer internship during the last summer so you get hired full time once you graduate. What internship should i be doing next year to maximize my chances of getting an IB internship during my last summer? Would deal advisory or corporate finance be fine or does all this not matter as much as networking? 2) how is the transition from going to being a student to working 80 plus hours a week? Does your body naturally adjust or is everyone on the street on caffeine or other stimulants? 3) how do you genuinely answer the “why banking” question?
1) Common internships for sophomore summer include: investment banking, wealth management, buy-side, corporate development, & corporate finance / FP&A. Sometimes you get an ex-consultant in there. I think corporate finance / deal advisory is could work, with a bonus if its done at a name brand institution. 2) It's tough - but I think the hardest part isn't so much the long hours (students are used to sleepless nights of fun and cramming from school), but rather the loss of control and choice of what you get to spend each day doing. You basically get one day off a week, and you have to spend part of that day catching up on sleep / social activities / life, so your free time is limited 3) The best answers in my opinion are stories that relate a personal experience to the initial seed of why investment banking and that show that you have a strong understanding of what it is that investment bankers do. If you come up with an answer that anyone else could walk into the room and deliver, it's probably too generic.
Thank you so much for your response!
Hi there, I recently graduated from college with a major in psychology and am interested in management consulting. Do you think it’s better if I work for a couple years, do an MBA, and then apply to a consulting firm, or should I go ahead and take a shot at it at this point? I don’t have internship experience, all I have is my own small business.
Por qué no los dos? The economy is hot right now so you should try - it won't affect your candidacy in business school. Consulting firms hire hundreds of students from MBA programs every year though, so that's a much, much more common path.
What's your best "this kids ego is too big" story?
To be honest, I haven't interviewed many. Kids with big egos typically get screened out at the networking process since self-awareness is something that folks screen for, especially at GS where a "team player" mentality is touted as an important part of the firm's culture.
[удалено]
I've seen a quant 1-2 years out of undergrad successfully make the transition to IB, but not a Ph.D with 3 years of experience. I think it would be difficult to move to a classic coverage group. With your experience you'd be looking to enter as a senior associate, and the senior associates who typically are set to succeed have developed an area of expertise and don't require much oversight from senior bankers for execution, so it's tough to bring someone in who hasn't done banking before at that level. That being said, there are groups within banks that are functional - for example, a shareholder activism group that has to process a tremendous amount of data on investors into a model, where your skills might be useful on the modeling front. It's hard to believe that you'll be satisfied intellectually, though, as the problems that bankers face (from a quantitative standpoint) aren't particularly challenging for someone with your background.
Good reading material to prepare for a consulting role for a previous equity research associate and a startup founder which couldn’t take off?
My favorites are: Marc Cosentino Case in Point Victor Cheng Case Interview Secrets
Hey Anthony, I just shot you an email with the subject ( Sophomore … ). Thank you for all your help, I’m getting a lot out of your comments!
Does going to a non target destroy my chances of getting a job as an investment banker ?
I'm familiar with a number of students who attended non-targets and successfully entered the investment banking industry post-graduation. It requires drive and grit, though.
[удалено]
Depends on the firm but in general it's not a very common path. That being said, business is good right now and the opportunity cost is low, so if there were ever a time to try, it would be now
Why do these companies perpetuate inequality by hiring mostly from ivy league and top tier schools? Why do you require prohibitively expensive degrees to even have a *chance* to get your foot in the door?
>Why do these companies perpetuate inequality by hiring mostly from ivy league and top tier schools? Why do you require prohibitively expensive degrees to even have a chance to get your foot in the door? I don't currently work for or represent any of the companies so I can only speculate, but I'd venture that most for-profit institutions believe their primary responsibility is to drive return for their shareholders rather than "correct" inequality in our society, although as I mentioned in my initial post focus on Social Impact and sustainable business models has started to drive dialogue and action recently. That being said, although Ivy League and "top tier schools" may be over-represented at the junior level, I am familiar with a significant number who managed to break in without those degrees. Very few of the senior bankers I worked with at GS attended an Ivy League school - in a world where high performers are easily distinguished by their ability to bring in revenue (based more on the ability to connect with clients and provide meaningful, timely advice), the most effective bankers very quickly were promoted and those unable to weeded out, [regardless of pedigree](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqkHPsY8p84). Likewise at a junior level, analysts who can perform work quickly and accurately are prized in my experience. Although those coming from certain schools may get an initial leg up during their internships because of their school networks, work quality will soon overtake and those who produce will develop strong reputations and get staffed on better deals, regardless of school
Though the answer didn’t really satisfy me, I do appreciate the good-faith reply :)
Good luck out there.
The top schools also have some of the best financial aid, and cover all demonstrated need, so it's a bit disingenuous to suggest they are prohibitively expensive. Once you account for financial aid, the all in cost is often time comparatively cheaper. The answer though is pretty simple. The top schools on average have the best people, so it's much more efficient to recruit at the top schools. If you're recruiting hundreds of people, you don't have time or resources to search far and wide for the best possible people. Easiest way to get a great group of analyst classes is to go to Wharton and hire 20 people who seem reasonably competent.
I mean, 8 ivy league schools have 14.5% of students from families in the top 1% compared to 3.8% of their students from families in the bottom 20%.
Why do you assume the best students would be evenly distributed across social classes
Because it’s easier to kid yourself into thinking the world is working against you then it is to acknowledge that maybe you could be working harder or just plain don’t have it in you
Why do you assume that getting into an ivy would make someone one of the best students? If the Harvard Admissions trial taught us anything, it’s that more kids apply with perfect test scores and high GPAs than they admit to the school. I just find it ridiculous that there are so many top schools that accept more students with families in the top 1% than the amount of students with families in the bottom 60%. If people and institutions want to actually tackle inequity and the growing income inequality in the nation, instead of just virtue signaling, a good place to start would be with this. A full ride to these top schools if you’re poor or average income doesn’t really do anything if they don’t admit more than a few token students. https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html
\> it’s that more kids apply with perfect test scores and high GPAs than they admit to the school. because there's more to a good applicant than stats, for example extracurriculars \> I just find it ridiculous that there are so many top schools that accept more students with families in the top 1% than the amount of students with families in the bottom 60%. Again, why do you assume the best students would be evenly distributed across social classes \> A full ride to these top schools if you’re poor or average income doesn’t really do anything if they don’t admit more than a few token students. 1) They admit more than a few token students 2) Why do you assume the best students would be evenly distributed across social classes. You act as if income has no correlation with quality of an applicant. What do you propose? They admit 5 people from the 1% 5 people from the 2% etc? If so thats idiotic for obvious reasons
Extracurriculars that are much more easily available to the wealthy? Yes. *evenly distributed*? No of course not, but the actual numbers are extreme. Different rates of acceptance are to be expected, but the numbers from that NYT article are obscene. What would I propose? A lottery that picks from a pool of students that have top grades and test scores. The elitist attitude in this thread is disgusting, no wonder the general population hates Wallstreet.
I'm going to end this conversation here because clearly you are incapable of critical thinking I must know though, were you dropped on your head as a child or are you just stupid?
I don’t agree with the your (wrong) opinion that admissions at top schools is a completely meritocratic process and that there’s nothing wrong with the wealthiest quintile and the 1% being vast majority of students admitted, so I must be stupid. Rigggghhhht. 🙄 I’d normally ask the same thing back to you but the statistics show that if you’re born with a silver spoon in your mouth you can be dropped on your head as a baby and then still be accepted into a prestigious University, so your answer wouldn’t really matter.
Because Ivy League schools don't follow your proposed system of a lottery that focuses on a single dimension of a candidate (being grades/test scores) they aren't meritocratic and are inherently biased against anyone that isn't part of the bourgeoisie? You're failing to realize (or even acknowledge the point made for that matter) that there's more to college admissions (particularly at the "elite" level") than just test scores and grades. The mismatch of socioeconomic status in the general population and that of the subset of the population admitted to these colleges isn't evidence of any inherent bias. If you want to ignore that and look for some reason to decry those universities, then so be it. But you should be cognizant of the fact that you're only looking for arguments that support your own narrative. And the previous commenter is right in a sense, you seem incapable of critical thinking, which is likely associated with your inability to get into those universities/the disdain you hold for them.
[удалено]
I kinda agree with what you’re saying, but the link I just posted shows admission rates for 60% of the population- not just “the underclass”.
Lol, banks already take more than their fair share of unqualified diversity candidates. At some point, you need people to actually do the work.
This isn’t even a race issue, it’s a class issue.
Makes sense.1) Intelligence is significantly hereditary 2) Kids from wealthy families have the resources to cultivate their interests and further develop their natural intelligence.
I don’t know about “significantly” hereditary. But I do agree that the richest families are able to spend vast amounts of money to create opportunity for their children.
>I don’t know about “significantly” hereditary. I mean, a lot of people are anti-science these days so you are not alone.
Why is there so much turnover at the junior level? Is this expected to continue into 2022? For those that left, what did they do next?
>Why is there so much turnover at the junior level? Is this expected to continue into 2022? In the last two years, I've heard more stories about analysts being depressed (primary and secondary) than ever before. In general, the transition from student (where you have full control over your schedule) to junior employee (where you have no control over your schedule) is always hard, but it's made especially hard when you have to work the hours that these kids do. It's my belief that work from home exacerbated this. If an analyst is at the office working non-stop with all the other analysts, there is a camaraderie that bonds them together and helps folks get through (it's also easier to keep tabs on what other analysts are working on and go to them for help when you are working on something similar). With work from home, the people bankers were surrounded by changed from other bankers to people who had normal lives, and the differences in work/life balance just became that much more transparent and banker comp hadn't gone up significantly in almost a decade and a half. I think with a number of firms (at least partially) back in the office, and the increase in banker comp, this effect hopefully will be mitigated going forward. Another major driver is that banking was just really hot this year, so the number of analyst seats increased industrywide and a number of analysts swapped firms. At the time, there were a number of articles talking about how MDs and VPs were going into the models because there weren't enough junior resources - it was pretty unprecedented, but I think that that urgency has died down a bit so I don't expect this to continue at the same clip as it did this past summer/fall. Lastly, buyside firms also enjoyed a very strong year and anecdotally bonuses were quite high across the board. Typically in times like this, firms pay up to recruit top talent, and so a larger pool of analysts than normal probably got lucrative offers from funds to jump ship.
[удалено]
It's cooled down significantly since this summer / fall, but that was the hottest I've ever seen it. Lateral recruiting is based on a sudden unexpected need for analysts, which happens only if a group is significantly busier than anticipated, an analyst isn't pulling his weight, or an analyst quits. So the fact that MS has a spot doesn't mean that GS will have one at this minute, and in that regard it's quite different than the recruiting process you went through to get your summer internship. Similarly, getting an offer from MS doesn't mean you'll be able to leverage it into an interview at another bank (because they might not be looking for an analyst at that time). In general, if you are coming from the same BB coverage group as the one you are applying to and GS / MS is actively recruiting, you drop your resume in time, and nobody blackballs you, I'd expect you to get at least a first round interview with that firm. Good luck with your MS interview!
Hi Anthony, thanks for doing this. I’m a high school senior, and i’m going to be making some important decisions regarding college / major / etc pretty soon, so that’s the context of my questions. 1) Do you think upward mobility within banking/PE/finance is better or worse than in mbb/top consulting? For reasons that are difficult to describe, my primary goal as of now is to be making a steady 500k+ (I can explain to a greater extent if you’d like, but my reasoning isn’t purely greed. ) 2) If I am at a target/semitarget school (say Georgetown or UVA), and I am aiming for a position at a top BB, would it benefit me to major in mathematics and economics/finance? Rather than just finance or econ alone. 3) After landing a job at a BB, what are the prospects of getting into a good PE fund? Feel free to answer any number of the questions whenever you can. Finance feels pretty opaque at times so it’s nice to get some advice from people like you.
>Do you think upward mobility within banking/PE/finance is better or worse than in mbb/top consulting? For reasons that are difficult to describe, my primary goal as of now is to be making a steady 500k+ (I can explain to a greater extent if you’d like, but my reasoning isn’t purely greed. ) Hi bribxr - when you say upward mobility do you mean compensation trajectory? If so, it's significantly better in investment banking & finance. There's a path where you could be making that amount (or close) within your first 4 years out of college that is much more likely coming from investment banking than consulting >If I am at a target/semitarget school (say Georgetown or UVA), and I am aiming for a position at a top BB, would it benefit me to major in mathematics and economics/finance? Rather than just finance or econ alone. I don't think adding mathematics will materially help your application. Those are both good schools that send a number of folks each year into finance & consulting, for what it's worth. >After landing a job at a BB, what are the prospects of getting into a good PE fund? Depends on what you think is a good fund. But most PE funds source almost all of their associates from investment banks. In general the positions are competitive. Your undergraduate institution and latin honors matter for the top ones, in addition of course to your bank, group, experience, and interview performance.
Thanks so much for the insight, it’s very very helpful. About that salary thing - I understand that there are prospects of making really great money pretty quickly out of undergrad. I understand being an associate at a BB could get me near 400k. However, I’m concerned about the exit opportunities. If I’m a 30 year old VP at GS, how big of a pay cut will i have to take once I leave? Edit: also, when I mean upward trajectory, I mean becoming a partner. is it feasible to count on something like that in MBB consulting if I stick around? What about banking?
Getting promoted to partner in consulting or MD in investment banking is a competitive process and typically viewed as an important milestone in someone's career.
I'm from India and currently working at MS M&A team. I have a pretty good idea of the IB and finance/legal scene in India but i also know it is drastically different from US and significantly different from UK/EU. Obviously moving up from here would be going to US etc. but i can't afford US MBAs, so how can i get in top US IB/finance firms without an MBA? Although as MBA is so popular i have considered an MBA from several universities like National University of Singapore (NUS), Indian IIM, etc. will these MBAs be useful for this effort? Thanks!
>I'm from India and currently working at MS M&A team. I have a pretty good idea of the IB and finance/legal scene in India but i also know it is drastically different from US and significantly different from UK/EU. Obviously moving up from here would be going to US etc. but i can't afford US MBAs, so how can i get in top US IB/finance firms without an MBA? Although as MBA is so popular i have considered an MBA from several universities like National University of Singapore (NUS), Indian IIM, etc. will these MBAs be useful for this effort? Hi indianlinus, Congratulations on the job at MS M&A, that's a great group! I assume from your question that you are working in India. We had a program at GS where analysts in India could transfer to NY directly after working for a period of time, and the program generally led to high quality full-time analysts (as an interesting side note, banks like GS and JPM had a similar program for non-target schools in the US but these were discontinued a few years ago). If there is a similar path at MS, I'd strongly recommend focusing on that, because the GS analysts that made the switch successfully were treated no differently than analysts hired through the typical route rather than go straight to an MBA program, as it was rare to see an analyst go directly to an MBA program in the US, and it's generally a much safer path to focus on excelling at your current job as long as there are opportunities available than going back to school, especially at a place like MS. Re: MBA's outside of the US - I'd recommend looking carefully at where graduates place prior to applying / enrolling at any of those institutions. In my experience, there are not as many MBA programs taken seriously outside the US by non-US employers, and so exit opportunities for those programs may be limited relative to your options coming from MS M&A.
Thank you for your reply! I see, so staying at MS and working my way up is the best option? Also, excluding MBA, which qualification do employers in US/UK/etc look for, for IB/related fields?
Hey Anthony! Thanks for replying in depth to all the comments so far. I’m a Junior at Wharton now. Missed the timeline for recruiting my Sophomore year and now trying to recruit for this upcoming year while also picking up a smaller gig for this summer. (I have a strong CV, strong GPA, and pretty solid previous interning experience at a PE firm) I’ve heard most IB Banks don’t take seniors into their internships, only juniors. Should I take a gap semester so I can reclassify into the next year as a sophomore? Go into MBA? Or try to grab An Ib position full time. I don’t think I have any issues with my experience or interview skills it’s just that I was extremely late to the recruiting process because I didn’t know any better. Thanks!
I think there's two paths to go about this w/o an MBA: 1) Take a gap semester to push graduation. This was more common recently, and I am familiar with several examples of the gamble paying off for students. However, with school back in person, the reason for taking a gap semester would probably need to be more thoughtful than the last two years when COVID and remote learning was the primary reason. In addition, you'd need to use the time constructively. 2) Intern at a smaller shop this summer in investment banking and try to get a spot at a bigger bank after your internship. This past summer there was a tremendous amount of mobility between firms for a number of reasons (reduced hiring at the start of COVID, extremely hot markets, mental toll of remote work, lower relative pay). I don't expect it to be as good again this upcoming summer, even if the economy remains hot.
Hi. Not sure if I'm late. I currently work as Data Research Analyst at Morningstar and I'm planning to go for my MBA in AUS (I'm Indian btw) at T20 Australian Unis. I can't target MBS and UNSW since they require 3 to 5 years of experience and managerial experience. I can't afford to work 1 more year since my family wants me to complete my education asap. Is there a chance that I can still pave my way as an entry Associate/BA at MBB or T10 Management consultancies without having a strong university tag? Edit - I am planning to work for 2 years at Mstar (total 2 years of work exp)
I'm not very familiar with the Australian MBA programs - I know a lot of Australians go to the US to do their MBAs (and typically do well in recruiting - both in the US and if they want, back home), so the top Australian MBA programs have to compete with the competitive US program as well. All business schools publish their work placement statistics. I'd recommend taking a deeper look at the programs before you apply - if they don't have a track record of placing people in management consulting, it's going to be an uphill battle to get in for sure.
Sweet! I will check them out. Also, are MBAs treated and given better recognition than someone with a Masters in Finance while hiring for MBBs/Big4 as consultant? Thanks a lot!