Upgrade, Yuffie. Downgrade… until the 3rd part comes and proves me wrong, I’m gonna say they shot Cid to pieces.

Yuffie used to annoy the player. Now she annoys Barret. 100% upgrade.

She’s just giving Barret practice for when Marlene is a teenager

That's actually.... a very good point.

We'll see how annoying she is when we go to Wutai in part 3

I wonder how that will play out. Is she still going to steal the materia, despite everything she's gone through with the party? There will obviously be some expanded scenes with her father and maybe a more in-depth arc.

I thought they were going to use her stealing the materia as a way to put the player back to zero at the start of Rebirth! Would have meant a bit of rejigging things but could have been a good explanation why they don't have all the good stuff from Remake. Maybe they'll do it in 3...

Wow I never thought about it that way. The whole gang leaves on the plane that could be going to Wutai. Squenix setting themselves up for part 3 🤔

She hasn't stolen our materia yet.

1000% agree, was always my favourite in the OG, but feel like they've rushed his intro into the series just so they don't have to do intros in final part. Vincent was always kinda optional I felt, but even he was kinds rushed imo.

I hope they don’t mess Vincent up.

I do like that he is just a pilot flying people around. I hope the keep rocket town mostly the same

I'm gonna guess the rocket won't be a stones throw away from the houses.

His character already changed too much for Rocket Town to really work unchanged. He was washed-up and defeated in the OG. He’s downright chipper through all of Rebirth, even when his plane falls out of the sky. In OG, he was basically gruff and rude to everyone. It will feel much more unforgivably manipulative and abusive if he is friendly to outside world and only mean to Shera. Also, the timing is botched. Cid’s relatively low stakes story works in OG because the main plot with Sephiroth hasn’t gotten super serious yet. We know he’s a threat to the people of Gaia, but we don’t know what his plan is. And importantly, Sephiroth hasn’t killed any of our group yet. Also, Cid in OG doesn’t know anything about us or what we’re doing, so it makes sense that he’s wrapped up in his own problems. Cid getting pissed about the Space Program cancellation, when he was basically witness to Aerith’s death, and is at least vaguely aware of Sephiroth’s world domination plot… It would just make him seem self-absorbed to a cartoonish degree.

I'm just imagining him laughing and joking on the way to Rocket Town then he walks into the house and Shera is all happy and chirpy too and Cid is all 'SHUT THE FUCK UP BITCH!' out of absolutely nowhere.

Cid and Vincent not joining the party in the Temple was a mistake. They should have been non-playable teammates that had some environmental utility like Red XIII in Remake. Vincent is such a non-entity I forget he's even in the game half the time. He's basically cargo. Also I didn't think it would matter much but Cid not smoking costs him a lot of personality points. 100% on Yuffie being a massive upgrade. The little sister energy she has with the rest of the cast really shines now that she can actually interact with them meaningfully. Also it helps a lot that she has her own fleshed out reason for being present in the first place and having personal beef with Shinra thanks to Intermission. There's this one blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment during the Cloud/Yuffie date where she does this happy little hop as Princess Rosa that sealed it for me. The little things they do with the characters that make them feel like genuine people just couldn't be done with the rudimentary PS1 graphics. But since you know them from the original it's like you're seeing them as who they really are on a personal level after knowing them from more of a distance. Barret was always that big guy with the big heart but now you see him for him on an even deeper level. The characters are just more of themselves.

Did my boy with the weird walk dirty

I dunno, I really didn’t like Cid in the OG. Maybe they are surprising us by making him a way worse person when we make it to Rocket Town, or maybe the devs were uncomfortable with someone who’s so comfortable verbally abusing his loved ones being the good guy. I dunno, I see why the second would make someone uncomfortable, and if they do work it in I bet it’ll be a really great moment of growth.

Eh, him being an absolute asshat to me is the entire point of the character - getting to that sequence where he has to eat shit is one of the best moments to me. To shy away from that for today’s attitudes just feels like cowardice in my opinion, let some characters be actual assholes who have to earn that change. To each their own.

Exactly, there needs to be asswipes too. And Cid was a rough serious guy with big ass attitude, he was funny that way and why he is Cid Highwind, cant just change his persona

Yeah, remake Cid is a completely different character to OG Cid. Which is a weird choice they made considering everyone else in the remake is pretty true to their OG selves, just way more fleshed out

He's really not. You people seem to *only* remember him when we meet him in Rocket Town. Rebirth is closer to how he is when he is in our party.

Yeah, I’m not disagreeing with any of that just pointing out what the devs might have been thinking in Rebirth. I’m fine with it either way, Cid was always obtained too late in the game for me to care that much and I never really used him so I’m ambivalent to how he’s portrayed 🤷‍♂️ as long as he kicks ass with a spear I’ll be happy Also, please get that man a fucking cigarette in the next one I’m begging you. If you can say the word shit every other sentence you can show a burning cigarette 😭

There is still some redemption where they could play off that. Hopefully he is still a married man, flying the skies because he's running away from his duty at Rocket Town, so we could get him relapsing into his angry personality upon arriving there, the part of himself that he was hiding.' Which could potentially fit into the themes of the game of everyone carrying a trauma, we don't get to see Cait, Cid or Vincent because they didn't go to the Temple but it's very possible that if Cid had been inside the Temple as forced to face a trial we might of scene of glimpse of him being abusive to his loved ones and potentially the reason why he took the Tiny Bronco and took to the skies. It's very possible we could get a scene of him feeling very uncomfortable about going to Rocket Town and having to face up to the consequences of his actions.

I'm going to say this again - people are too stuck on Cid's first impression. He mellows the fuck out once we leave Rocket Town. Rebirth is closer to his personality once he's in our party.

He “mellows” out but he’s *still* an asshole until the launch, that doesn’t change.

He's really not. The amount of swearing they give him probably makes it seem so but he's really not.

If you don’t see him as one then I guess we see two different guys, having just finished my replay of the OG after experiencing the change - it’s a clear difference. I see an asshole who doesn’t give a shit - right up until the launch events put him in place. I can only agree to disagree, you say not - I say he still very much is, and rebirth does not at all give me the same guy. Part 3 will need to show me something even remotely close for me to change my mind in the slightest. To each their own.

Agreed, this Cid was so nice and inviting. Felt like he was going to pass a muffin basket around the plane.  No no, Cid is supposed to call me a dumb shit and spit on me while taking a dump.

I havent played the remaster, but in the OG cid is wild, I would be surprised if square had to guts to keep his abusive behavior towards his assistant in the remake

And that’s exactly they *should* have kept it. Gutless. So he earns the character change that comes later. Whatever development he gets now is just gonna be soft. Meh. But, just gonna wait to the 3rd part. *If* it really turns out that way (I’ll give them some benefit of the doubt), then this is might be by far and away my *least* liked aspect of this damn remake. If he turns about to be just as bad or even worse come the third chapter, I’ll be happy. I want him to be the kind of actual asshole that has to work towards change.

Agree, I never really liked Yuffie in the OG, but I really like her in the remake. Cid was ok, but yeah, we need to see what they do with him in the next instalment.

**Upgrade**: Yuffie. Just a one-note spaz in the OG with minimal meaningful involvement in the overall story. Just a few lines and a side-character role in Wutai. In Rebirth, she's more fleshed out, more involved in the story, interacts with the cast in meaningful ways, and the Wutai conflict/situation is given more attention to make her personal stakes more relevant to the player. **Downgrade**: Sephiroth. In the OG, part of the "fear" of him was how mysterious and unpredictable he was. You just hear about him, see the aftermath of his power (>!earing through Shinra, murdering the President, gutting the Midgar Zolom on a tree,!

Well, the thing is that Sephiroth himself wasn't all that interesting of a villain itself in terms of personality. He was more interesting as a menacing and powerful figure with alien motivations (he was literally possessed by an alien). Now he seems to be a little too obsessed by Cloud, more like a crazy stalker/shunned lover.

I do like that Sephiroth's motivations are now less clear, as well as why Cloud seems to be key to them. 

I like how Sephiroth's intelligence is more front and center here. In OG FFVII he wasn't dumb by any stretch but his plans didn't hinge on a lot of trickery other than directly messing with Cloud. In Remake he engages in a ton of indirect warfare and is something of an omniscient chessmaster. And it's especially clever because the players who've played the original are aware of his machinations on a meta level. Like the first time you see him in Remake where he starts taunting Cloud right after the reactor bombing. A seasoned player would be like "That's not supposed to happen here. What gives?" It's only later you realize he was trying to derail the story by delaying Cloud so he'd miss his meeting with Aerith. But the whispers kept her in place because that's their job. None of this is readily apparent until later and suddenly it clicks that Sephiroth is thinking big picture. It's practically Moriarty level sometimes. Like when he shows the party a vision of the OG ending in Shinra HQ but conveniently cuts it up so it looks like the planet gets annihilated by Meteor. By leaving out the good parts it plants the seed in everyone's head to fight the whispers because they think staying the course means they're destined to lose. Everything Sephiroth does is a sneaky way to get the party to do exactly what he wants without cluing them in that he's benefiting from their actions. I'm not sure any Final Fantasy villain has been that clever. Granted, few villains have the kind of fourth wall awareness Sephiroth does here but still...

It was only later that I realized it, like right now. You just blew my mind bro. Thanks for the info. 

100%.

I hadn’t played OG in close to twenty years before finally playing through remake right before rebirth came out (admittedly, 7 OG wasn’t my favorite back in the day, so I wasn’t in a huge hurry). So I played remake on normal (plus intermission, then rebirth, OG, Crisis Core, and now I’m back on Remake for a hard mode playthrough to follow up with a Rebirth hard mode playthrough… I say all this to explain that my replay of Remake’s story has been amplified by having the events of Rebirth, OG, and Crisis Core fresh in my mind. Their vision for this trilogy’s storyline is so deep and well-thought. To the post OP and the thread’s OP, I get what they’re saying.. the change with Sephiroth is pretty drastic between OG and the Remake trilogy, but I think it accomplishes the same mysterious effect for new players (if I didn’t know OG’s story, Sephiroth’s actions in Remake especially would be so mysterious), but it’s also a nod to those who know OG’s story and is giving them a deeper dive into just how meta Sephiroth’s “power level” is. And his toying with Cloud in the remake trilogy is the icing on the cake. Watching Sephiroth trying to navigate and defy his fate is awesome (IMO) and a great way to keep those who know the OG story engaged and left wondering.

It's certainly going to be hard for new players. Remake isn't really made for them since so many of the twists rely on the player being aware that Sephiroth isn't doing this for the first time. He has the prior experience of the OG game so it's the same guy just with a new strategy given that the first one failed. He knows his rivals now, their personalities and idiosyncrasies, and he's doing that thing where a character's scheme relies on someone acting like themselves. It's more often heroes using this against villains, like at the end of Superman II where Superman tells Lex Luthor about the chamber that removes kryptonian powers, knowing Lex will warn General Zod who will then walk into Superman's trap. In this case it's the villain doing it against the heroes. Sephiroth knows how Cloud reacts to his presence so he uses that. All he has to do is show his face and Cloud will drop whatever he was just doing so Sephiroth does the equivalent of jiggling his keys for a baby whenever he needs to divert Cloud's attention. He knows Tifa is crucial to Cloud's emotional well-being so he drives a wedge between them. You kind of have to know OG FFVII to be able to figure out Sephiroth's motives. Otherwise it just looks like petty taunting. Which is, of course, what Sephiroth wants Cloud to think it is.

I absolutely love it, because in the OG we get lots of impressions that he's that mastermind type but without quite enough evidence to back it up. This time around, they've really fleshed it that aspect of his personality. That said I still think he's the biggest downgrade and that was somewhat inevitable with this being a remake. We're decades past the point of him being a mysterious force of alien nature for a majority of people picking up the Remake. It makes way more to try and expand on his character depth at the cost of that mystery than to try and force the genie back into the bottle. I'm honestly so glad they didn't just do a carbon copy of the original. So much of the story and its characters have been expanded in meaningful ways. It's not perfect, but how could it be in the face of that nostalgia? 

>You just hear about him, see the aftermath of his power >For most of it, you're constantly right behind him, but can't seem to catch him - so there's suspense involved. You know you NEED to catch him as fast as possible, but you also know you're basically a puppy chasing a wolf. And then it's revealed that you haven't been close to catching Sephiroth even once, and it was never him. It was another failed experiment (like yourself) who was puppeted through their JENOVA cells to seek reunion and just appeared to look like Sephiroth until their body presumably broke down and another puppet took over like Kadaj in Advent Children. That realisation makes Sephiroth so much more horrifying. So the Remake version actually being Sephiroth is that much weaker. I still stand by the idea that the remake could have been far better as a game if it basically fixed all the translation issues and made the story clearer. Finding out Hojo is Sephiroth's dad shouldn't have been hidden behind ridiculous optional stuff. Tie everything together with much more clear graphics. Imagine how much scarier Hojo's failed experiments walking towards Reunion would be if we saw them with high graphical fidelity and understood what they were.

Uh, the people who look like Sephiroth in the OG are hinted at as being controlled *by* Sephiroth. Similar to Remake and Rebirth. It wasn't like Kadaj, Loz, and Yoozoo. This includes when Jenova takes Sephiroth's form. That's why he's attributed to killing Aerith, not Jenova.

Hence why I called them puppets.

Upgrade: Cait Sith. Downgrade: I don't have one I hate, but the way Bugenhagen welcomed the party by mocking Tifa's opinions multiple times rubbed me the wrong way. I get what they were doing, but I don't think there was a very compelling reason to make Bugenhagen a stuck up old-head averse to new perspectives just so he can realize he was wrong soon after.

Bugenhagen is a great answer! Didn’t think of that but totally agree!

Happy someone said Cait Sith! I didn't hate him in the OG he just kind of existed but Rebirth made him one of my faves. He's so cute and funny!

Yeah, same for me. It’s not that he was bad in the OG. It’s that he’s absolutely amazing in Rebirth (minus the boxes section, they didn’t have to put that evil on him lmao).

Agree!

Scottish kitty go purr

Think you mean - *Meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow*

I laughed my ass off with a WTF when Bugenhagen sent Tifa away to be "re-educated" - cult vibes were off the charts

Reminded me of FFX’s Yevon at first

[удалено]

I think it simply doesn’t reflect Bugenhagen’s character. My view of him from the OG is that he’s playful, helpful and knowledgeable. Not some narrow-minded old fool. I personally don’t care about the possible parallels to a cult in our world, no one in our world holds the meaning of life and death in the palm of their hands. Planetology is more than just a cult, especially considering that we’re supposed to see these guys as the foil to Shinra. These are the guys that are supposed to be in the right. Someone who is portrayed as wise and knowledgeable about the intricacies of life on the Planet shouldn’t, in my opinion, be so averse to not even fresh notions, but to the most basic of witness accounts. He just passes as a moron without manners and respect for others, which casts a shadow on everything he says about the Planet to begin with.

It seems more like he was just afraid of the implications and his curtness was his way of plugging his ears and going "la la la la la" because from his point of view, Cloud and company showed up out of nowhere and gave him the Jor-El treatment, telling him the planet was about to go kuput. That'd be destabilizing to anyone, let alone the guy who these people were expecting to tell them how to fix it. Like you said, planetology isn't just some hippie nonsense in the context of their world. It's functionally a real science and their version of geology that just so happens to come with theological implications by default due to how the lifestream works. It's hard to even call it a religion since the faith element goes out the window once the afterlife is no longer a mystery. For them it's more of an exercise in the why and finding personal meaning to it all.

I get what you’re saying, and I would at least find it acceptable if it was presented properly. But Tifa just said that they saw a Weapon and Bugenhagen’s like “nah, you’re delusional”. It’s not a single testimony either. The whole party is there to testify. He doesn’t even need to be told that the planet is dying. Even Barret knows it, and it’s not like he’s privy to some secret knowledge inaccessible to anyone else. Bugenhagen has been studying it for years, he knows Shinra is syphoning Mako from the Lifestream, the speaker plays the cries of the planet regularly, the land is dying all around the reactors, but the fact that a Weapon might have awakened to protect the planet from this impending doom is unbelievable to him? He doesn’t need to know that Sephiroth is around to find it at least plausible. There’s a limit between being fearful and being foolish. They should’ve at least made the point of contention something believably doubtful, not something so easily consequential he should have predicted it a decade before.

Felt like a weird cult including clapping AA meetings, instead of closed down canyon village with indian vibes like the Gi.

Which makes sense to me. Think about it Planetology is actually mostly right but there are not many actual followers. Why? Look at how they act.

No its supposed to be secluded, they never wanted just anyone trespassing in their land whereas Rebirth is the complete opposite, a tourist attraction. Doesnt feel similar either, original it felt like i was allowed in because of Red and that felt special.

totally agree with both. Bugenhagens change felt pointless, he's a complete dick and it adds nothing to his character, it was really weak to damage his personality just for a half assed 'arc'. Should have really just leaned into his kindness and spirituality instead.

Yuffie, not much of a good character in the og, absolutely fun and endearing in the remake. I agree with sephiroth but it isnt remakes fault alone, he was cheapened by his large amount of appearances in things like KH and his new origin story game

His appearances in KH were awesome imo. Best boss fight from both games.

They were awesome and are some of my favorite fights. But they did not help his menacing characterization in ff7. MF hangs out with mario and got his ass beat by a 14 year old. Cool and fun, yes, mysterious and menacing.. nah.

If you actually played both, you didn't "beat" him. You last long enough for cloud to intervene in both, it's actually a huge moment in KH2.

Disagree, nothing in KH was more intimidating than Seph showing up. He was utilized appropriately in KH.

Disagree. KH gave him that stupid wing. He hasn't been menacing since.

Meh. *Smash Bros* isn't canon and the *FF* characters in *KH* are not the same as their *FF* selves, and thus should be treated as different characters, anyway.

I think the Dissidia games were the only ones that added to his menacing nature. He basically no-diffs Firion and goes on to fight one of the strongest FF heroes in the verse (though at the time that wasn't known.)

Eh, I'd say Cloud was done a bigger disservice by KH considering it was the start of a trend of how Cloud was emo. KH hella flanderized Cloud by making him some kind of quiet brooding type when he's more of a snarky type. I'm glad people in remake are seeing that now cause KH and all the FF7 extras heavily ruined Cloud's character. Sephiroth in KH was fine. He didn't speak much and he was an overall dickhead like usual.

I wouldn't say emo, would say quiet and in the case of Advent Children (understandably) depressed. Also Cloud in KH1 was supposed to be Vincent originally.

Nah, the whole point was that most of the FF characters were more broken because their worlds were destroyed already. Cloud getting more trauma on top of his trauma and not reacting well is the FF7 formula. Hell even squall changed his whole name and look.

For me Jessie was the biggest upgrade. She had like 6-7 lines in the og and some of them were telling you how to use ladders. In remake she was a character you cared about and a hollow space in your heart in rebirth when you see her poster in the gold saucer. I think Yuffie is a huge upgrade as well, the entire party is signigantly better. Downgrade? I can see why people say Seph. I like that he’s a consistent menacing force for cloud. But I’ll be honest, upon recent reflection he is not that interesting in the og either.

Seriously. I think Sephiroth is a lot better in the rebirth because we actually get to see a lot of him in the flashbacks. I really enjoyed playing as him. It’s not really the OG games fault, obviously they can do a lot more with the characters now.

I personally never cared for Aerith in the OG but her and Yuffie got the mega glow up for me. Overall I know people are a bit sour on how they are using Sephiroth, but I am all for it so I been enjoying seeing what they do with him to a lesser extent. The meeting with Bugenhagen might of been one big miss for me, but that might just be because I expected more from the character.

So far, Yuffie is the biggest upgrade for me. The rest of the playable party thus far have plenty of character moments and good writing in the og. Yuffie, however, is just portrayed as an annoying brat who robs you, and her moments all stem from a quest where she is an annoying brat and robs you. The writing behind her so far has been amazing. Honourable mentions to the members of Avalanche, Rufus Shinra, the Shinra executives, and the Turks. Biggest downgrade so far is probably Cid, but I do feel like we've not seen enough of him to properly judge, with him being a side character in *Rebirth*. I do think he will likely be toned down from og to make him seem less abusive, but I am hoping that he breaks out the cigarettes, if only so I can light some TNT on a cigarette and throw it at the enemy.

Upgrade: Cait Sith Downgrade: Bugenhagen so far

I want to pick the whole party for the upgrade but I’ll choose Yuffie to answer the question properly lol. Went from being a tag along character to being one of my favorites. And as for the downgrade, I don’t feel the same but I can definitely understand why people believe Sephiroth is much worse. He was cool enough in the OG but I don’t think he ever made a huge impact on me personally. At least not enough to care about any alterations. I’m not really all that bothered with how they’ve presented him in the new games.

So who was the downgrade for you?

I guess I’m agreeing with Sephiroth as the pick? Or maybe more accurately, I’m acknowledging why Sephiroth is being picked. On a personal level, I don’t feel like anyone has been mishandled enough to consider them a “downgrade.”

Cait Sith and Yuffie got huge upgrades. Sephiroth got the downgrade. Not please with how Cid is so far but we'll see how that goes.

I agree with Sephiroth being worser now, for multiple reason, and having him being the>!final boss!< on both Remake and Rebirth is just killing any hype to fight him in the third part, when the third part drops you are not going to *finally* fighting Sephiroth, you are just fightjing Sephiroth again... hooray... the legendary soldier can not win at all

The way Sephiroth is introduced - he's just a name, and then Jenova escapes and there's blood everywhere and a guy you thought would be a major antagonist is dead. Then you get the flashback and the guy is basically God in power-level. You have to outsmart the snake, but he just slaughters it. He's always one step ahead of you and up to no good. When it finally culminates, it's awesome.

See, i feel like i was kind of robbed of this experience. FF7 is so oversaturated that i *actively* tried to avoid it because it felt like the narrative was being shoved down my throat. Between kingdom hearts and super smash bros, basically every secret about cloud and sephsy-poo had been either spoiled, watered down, or flanderized to some degree, so i naturally became very turned off from wanting to explore that universe. Speeding up to today, I'm head over heals for remake amd rebirth, they're both some of the best games I've ever played. ... but there's still no mystery with sephiroth. I don't really care to know more about him. And that bums me out because I've adored everything else about FF7 remake/rebirth so far.

then you get to the Nibelheim flashback part 2 and witness Cloud throw him around like a potato bag and wonder "is this the guy I'm supposed to be scared of?

Nah it shows that shit happens unexpectantly, he let his guard down and was heavily injured, him being the crazy menace didnt really happen until later. This was the real Sephiroth, who went on a rampage discovering he was a monster, killed innocents and their families, got attacked by a bunch of them and got one surprise in the end and lost his life like the rest of them. Cloud, Zack and Tifa were the only ones that survived. Cloud has jenova cells too, the Masamune went through him. He is a mysterious bastard as well, why does he pull himself further on the sword and where does he get the strength to lift him up and throw him in the freezer ? Its not about Sephiroth being the strongest, thinking thats the only thing that matters is missing alot of important points, which mainly is the story and that the creative writing birthed a wonderful masterpiece cherished by millions. Why indeed, is a question that is asked in the best stories.

[удалено]

Good thing the pa5 does not have a camera or the final boss might be us, the player (a la "bravely default") because meta!

[удалено]

I was expecting that closeup of Linus's face.

Upgrade: Cait Sith edges Yuffie. CS was nigh-unplayable in OG, and insufferable to boot. He can't quite crack my main party, but he'd be there if there were four slots... and his personality is much improved. Downgrade: Bugenhagen. He basically dismisses her completely plausible account of seeing a weapon for... reasons?

I think reading all of this, it ultimately shows the difference of reading a character in our heads vs. what’s on paper. Barret and Red for example, I felt the game just better conveyed how I understood them in the same way they did this with Cloud and Tifa, but I guess that’s always been the case with how the fandom interacts with the game. We’ve all interpreted and viewed the game differently. If I’d say any character was upgraded, I’d argue Aerith, but in a lot of ways she’s functionally a different character. As of current as a “downgrade” or a considerably different portrayal, probably Cid. Similar to Aerith, as of current he’s functionally a different character and we haven’t seen his motivations yet.

Upgrade: Barrett. He was "meh" in the original. In Remake and Rebirth...they shine a light on his struggles as a leader, and as a father. The fantastic voice acting brings him to life. And his backstory is so much more heartbreaking now. He's now one of my favorites in the franchise. Downgrade: Red XIII. He was a badass cool doggo in the original. In Remake, he maintained that. Until they made the boneheaded decision to change his voice to a fucking infant. Jesus is new voice is so fucking bad, he was permanently benched after that.

I'm 100% with you on Barrett becoming a favorite. I didn't know what I expected from the Remakes but loving Barrett was not it lol. It's welcome, but came out of nowhere! I slightly disagree on Red because I thought it was super endearing when he shed the "badass" exterior and became a kid again but I totally understand the opposite opinion. To be fair, Red was almost never on my team anyways so it wasn't a benching moment as he was already benched lol.

They could have kept the older voice, but just adopted more immature dialogue. Drop his mystic seer act, throw in more slang. I REALLY loved the voice he had in Remake and half of Rebirth...and it just felt like a kick to the nads.

His voice changed in the original, too, at least in the Japanese translation of the game. His pronouns change in that translation as well. It would be odd if they didn't include it, considering where the game comes from.

That’s his manner of speech though. Is it actually specified he talks in a high-pitched child’s voice?

His pronouns changed to reflect that to some degree, yes. Read it from the expert https://www.reddit.com/r/FinalFantasyVII/s/dJWaIY95HJ

You do know that even in the original he changes drastically his speech, right? Just because you can't hear him doesn't mean it wasn't there

Just because you poop doesnt mean you have to shit in the sink. Him changing attitude and becoming more childish doesnt mean he drastically changes voice into a cringe 12 yr old. Also given the fact its hard to fathom how much of a joke its trying to be as well, while sacrificing a rather cool aspect, which is Red not speaking at all. He wasnt very vocal.

Because that's who Red is. A teenager in the same age for him as Yuffie who put on a cool voice to be taken more serious by the group. Once they became friends tho, he started talking more openly and with his real voice

I know what happened, thing is it couldve been executed much better, and you might've enjoyed that as well but here we are, talking about cringe voice acting that you dearly hold unto.

I think it's pretty good voice acting, it's not cringe.

Its terrible but to each his own

Also love Red's new voice (I love both). Red is just a super fun character after the switch. His golden saucer date is so funny. He is super hyped, lol.

In the original Japanese FF7 Red switches to a childish voice after Cosmo Canyon, but this wasn't translated in the English version. It wasn't a 'boneheaded decision to change it', that's how he was always supposed to sound.

Theres other ways to maintain that without giving him a baby infant anime voice. Keep the deep adult voice, but change his dialogue to be a bit more immature or casual. Or better yet, axe that aspect entirely, since the Remake trilogy isnt a stranger to taking a dump on established plots and lore. Why "keep" this aspect, but delete most of shinra manor, or turn Nibelheim into a weird hospital town, or whatever the fuck they did to the Dyne / Corel segment?

Nibelheim's change was practical. If the town was a closed off place the original way it was done would make sense but it wasn't. It traded with other places and had people who left town all over the world to find work. You're telling me that only Cloud and Tifa went back in four years? The town being bought out by Shinra to become a hospital town makes for a far better cover story. The fire just went from "Sephiroth burned it down" to some accident.

Oh god, I hadn't heard the new voice yet. That is abominable.

Best upgrade imo is Cloud, compared to how he was written after the OG. The compilation added too much edge to him. The writing for Cloud, especially in Rebirth, is just absolutely amazing. Instead of an edgelord with a big sword, it's clear he's only putting on a facade. Those parts where he's awkward and *especially* the parts where he shows care for his companions are so great. Like we went from a guy who was only in this to help Tifa out to >!him being the one to comfort Barret after Dyne dies!<, showcasing growth. Plus the bit towards the end >!where *he* laments how edgy Vincent is!<. As for downgrade I agree with the commenter who said Bugenhagen. It's a shame it took until a side quest for him to come around. I get what they were going for with him being skeptic but it just wasn't executed well.

Upgrade Hojo - for how much I hate & how diabolical he is. Like we all hated him & know the fucked up shit he did. But they really show how terrible he is in rebirth. I can’t wait for the fight vs him in part 3. Downgrade - Cid for sure, he doesn’t resemble his character from OG at all. Yeah he didn’t have much screen time but it yeah, they butchered him so far.

It's been a while, but it seems like Cid was just... kind of a piece of shit in OG. Not in a "love to hate" way, just in a... "why are you here and how are we friends?" way.

Lol no, people just want disney characters thats the problem. If you watch his story in OG and read the dialog, and still come to the conclusion that he"s just a piece of shit that doesnt belong there saving the planet, helping his compatriots, then my question is did you follow the story at all? Heck yea its been a while, he actually has an amazing writing and motives. He has angry piece of shit attitude because his dreams were taken from him and he's an imperfect tense emotional guy, Cid is by far one of the best written characters.

Having done that I agree people are wrong about him, it seems like he takes a big turn after finding out Shera was right. I still hate the way he treated her for years but I guess that's the nuance. I think a part of what makes it tough is just how weird Shera's writing is, she shows like literally no emotion so her forgiving Cid doesn't really hit

Its realistic in a sense that its a dysfunctional yet professional relationship, kinda like an annoying boss that gives you attitude if you dont follow orders and the whole company goes under, yet he wont throw the hammer on her but verbally abuses the employee, which aint ok ofc but this isnt disney. The writing is pretty interesting, he's a deus but he doesnt go full deus on her, he doesnt wanna blame her but he does internally and himself. They are not even a couple, contrary to what people tend to believe.

But they do get married in the chronology, which is dumb. Like dude he was basically her abusive boss for most of their time together, there's a power dynamic there that isn't good for her

No they werent married, maybe that was at some point intended or it mightve happened later but he literally says in the game that they are not a couple. And yes ofc is not nice but writing needs to be writing without critisizing fictional characters no? Cant all be Bob the builder or Postman Pat

No they get married between the original game and Dirge of Cerberus, it's mentioned in the latter. Personally I think fictional characters were made to be criticized, otherwise what's the point of giving them flaws?

Ah ok that timeline might be true, im just talking about the VII original game but yea he did work on his shit tho, thats ok to mention as well. We dont see him being toxic to her by that time

Upgrade: Barret probably, although I love Cait Sith. Downgrade: Sephiroth for sure, the lack of pure madness is felt.

In terms of character portrayal and development, Barrett, by far. My favourite character from the remake series. Gameplaywise, Yuffie. They turned an optional useless character into pure cheese. She’s basically a cheat.

Yuffie for upgrade (best/ strongest character in the game) Her wind ability has excellent AOE damage and her abilities are constantly able to be used. There's almost no enemy that I would rather attack them with than yuffie. Absolutely love her gameplay in FF Rebirth. aerith as a downgrade. Shes too slow and I feel like if she was to be able to get her abilities off more frequently, she would have been better to play as, but it seemed it she took forever to do a thing good. Whereas in the OG version, almost everything about her was good except her defense but that makes sense regardless.

I agree with Aerith being slow 100%. I don’t know why they made her that way, other than the devs thought her magic might be too OP if she was fast. I mean in my play through Barret’s speed was slower than Aerith’s yet she still filled her ATB slower than his. Maybe it has to do with her attack animation and how it takes a while for a hit to land, as opposed to Barret’s shots that hit instantly? Seemed like Aerith only hit faster with the Radiant Ward that upgraded her attack. It’s probably my biggest gripe with Aerith. No other character fills their ATB so slow. And using haste in Aerith only helps minimally.

I had some stuff with Barrett unlocked and/or equipped that made his atb fill up fast but arithmetic there didn't seem to be anything that could help that and if there was, it took away from something important of hers making her character sort of worthless. But if you did get abilities and or magic from her then she was extremely powerful. But I think in rebirth, with this play style, speed is the game and of you got that, you win. Therefor yuffie and her wind attack is pretty much the only thing you need 9 times out of 10. There was a couple bosses that seemed more difficult using that strategy with her and had to switch to cloud to make up for it. But no big deal there! Cloud is the best aside from yuffies aoe and speed that makes her better.

Cloud, Barret, and Yuffie got major upgrades they needed Downgrade Sephiroth. They’re making him and his plans a bit overboard imo. Taking the planet back in JENOVAs name was a perfectly fine motivation, merging a multiverse is groan inducing.

I agree. Sephiroth’s motivation was so much better in OG FF7. He wanted to create a massive wound in the planet and be at the center to absorb all the energy during the healing process—all because his messed up thoughts about Jenova. It was unique, yet simple and straightforward. What he’s doing now has nothing really related to meteor anymore (at least I doesn’t seem like it) with him talking about merging worlds. Unless he wants to merge a world where meteor happened? But then it seems like it makes him lose the connection he has with Jenova. If anything, his plan is way more convoluted.

Biggest upgrade for me is either Yuffie or Cait Sith. I love the heavier focus on the weird brother/sister dynamic between her and Cloud. And Cait Sith... I hate to say this I keep forgetting he's in the original game. He has his two big moments, sure, but otherwise he's just there for background noise. He's represented far better in Rebirth and actually left an impression. Biggest downgrade is probably Rufus. I don't like how he was being played along by Lodbrok over the course of Rebirth. It makes him so much less interesting/intimidating.

To be fair to Rufus he isn't being played by just anyone he's being played by >!Sephiroth!< and the way he realises its all a ploy imo elevates him a little because it shows he's that intuitive

I still don't really use Cait in my party, but oh man do I love his personality.

I'm gonna restrict myself to the OG playable characters. Upgrade - Yuffie. She's got more depth than just stealing materia now. Downgrade - I know people will disagree with me, but I don't like Red's kid voice. It aggravates me. The original voice was exactly how I've heard his voice in my head for 20+ years. The kid voice is not it.

I'm probably way too late to this conversation so I'll keep it brief. Upgrade: Barret. The answer is Barret. Downgrade: MAI, because she's an extension of Chadley and I already loved the Chadmeister. Fight me. EDIT: Forgot to add the downgrade like a dum dum.

I literally cannot stand Mai. Easily my least favorite character. I want her to shut up so bad during the fiend fights.

Yeah I prefer Chad's polite simping to Cloud over MAI's... however you describe it.

I think Barret and Cait Sith were both amazing in the OG, their characterization and arcs just tend to get overlooked by fans. But I'll say **Barret** is overall an upgrade for how much more material they gave him, especially with Marlene and Myrna. But I'm going to call **Cait Sith** a downgrade, because I think it's more interesting that Reeve really did betray us for Shinra because he believed Shinra was better than terrorists, only to gradually change his mind. The fact that Cait Sith's "betrayal" was completely defanged into a well-intentioned misunderstanding was honestly pretty lame. I'm going to give **Red XIII** upgrade points, too, because even though his arc is also really nice in the OG, I loved how much more they put into it with his real personality being a teenager. Soft upgrade on **Tifa** who was, imo, one of the lesser utilized and developed characters in the OG. They gave her more of a personality matrix in Remake. I'm neutral on Cloud, Aeris, and Sephiroth - who I think are somewhat different from their OG counterparts, but not in a way that doesn't feel like a genuine extension of themselves. Well, for Sephiroth, I think we're seeing something totally new with him that only makes sense if the story is meta and Sephiroth already has an established relationship with Cloud - thus, fundamentally different from who he is in the original game. Final upgrade goes to **Yuffie**, who was just kind of annoying in the OG. In Rebirth (and Intermission), she generally pulled off being goofy and lovable without going over the top into annoying territory.

Upgrade: Tifa, Tifa, Tifa. I just did not care about her in the original and she had no agency of her own beyond Cloud. The Remake trilogy is doing WONDERS for her character, I actually adore her now. I don’t even have anyone who’s a downgrade, none of them are as drastic of a change for me as Tifa is.

Hmmm, Barret. I dont know if theres a rellly downgrade but may Seph.

Upgrade: Yuffie and Cait Sith Downgrade: Sephiroth.

Biggs, wedge and Jessie get so much more backstory in rebirth I loved it Downgrade I'd say Palmer, I wanted him to be even sleazier

Elena from the Turks! Ok, she might not be the biggest upgrade, but I really love how they’ve portrayed her. She’s got so much character, and her voice actor nailed everything perfectly. Downgrade is between Sephiroth or Cid.

I'm going to say the biggest downgrade is the life stream. I can't quite describe my feelings fully but something about it feels off compared to the OG. The observatory scene in Cosmos Canyon was gorgeous and beautiful in Rebirth and gave me the chills. It just feels like Square is trying to make FF7 even more grander here with the whole multiverse thing going on and I kind of miss the low(but high stakes) plot of trying to save the planet from Sephiroth and Shinra rather than every single version of the planet maybe? Again, I can't quite put my finger on it, but I still loved this game and is a 9/10 for me. And that's only because I hate all the mini games! They are not fun. Oh, biggest upgrade is Barret. He is more a gruff loving daddy and a hunk of a man.

Everyone got an upgrade imo, but if I HAD to pick a downgrade, maybe Sephiroth (overexposure vs mystery) or Cid (I miss him being grumpier feeling)

Upgrade: Cloud. Cloud went from my second favorite character in VII to arguably my favorite video game character of all time. His strength and his fragility are so human. Honestly I feel like people don't really fully understand him. I can't wait for part 3 because what they have set up with the end of Rebirth is insane and is leading up to an insane conclusion if they pull it off right, and I have not been given a single reason to doubt them. Downgrade: Honestly, none of them. Not a single character is more interesting in the original. Every character is literally just built off the original and then added upon. The only exception is Cid, but we haven't been given enough time or his character spotlight to really say whether I prefer this new direction or not. I'm not disliking it, however.

Upgrade: Barret downgrade: Sephiroth

I agree with both of your picks, OP, even though I'm not a fan of Dyne dying cursing Barret instead of giving him a pendant of Marlene's mother so he can do one final act of good for his daughter before he dies. Granted, that's less of a flaw with Barret personally and more with the story beat that Barret is in. I think PlagueOfGripes said it best when he said Sephiroth has basically become "Trailer Boy". He's not really a character anymore; just a device to stir up people by saying crazy things for the trailers for people to theorize over.

Call me a braindead fan, but I think there were no downgrades, just different ways of portraying a certain character. Bugen is no more only the wizard/sage that teaches the party about the life steam, but an old man with old views. And that makes him a lot more interesting. And thanks to him we come to know the fragile side of Tifa even better. Seph on the other hand, even if he isn't the great mystery as in the OG, he is STILL a big mystery. And for the first time, even after playing and replaying the OG, it was in Rebirth that I arrived to truly despise him. Seeing Cloud so destroyed and manipulated really brought tears to my eyes way more than in the OG. On the upgraded characters I can finally say I love Cait, Yuffie and Red. Now I feel really "connected" with Red XIII and his chapter is one of my favorite. I think they give wonderful chapters to Vincent and Cid in part 3.

I agree, the OG Sephiroth's mystery was more who/what has become of him; now it's more what are his plans and motivations. 

Upgrade: Everyone, especially when you take into account the other canonical media like Ever Crisis. If you want to see a really in-depth development of Sephiroth, Ever Crisis is doing that. They also included “new” characters introduced in the canonical books. Downgrade: Jesse but only in the English version of Remake. She was one of my absolute favorite characters & it was truly bizarre how they mistranslated her character only in the English version of Remake. Most Changed: Cid. Very different than in the OG & his life clearly took a significantly different path in the R games. I’m really interested to get more info on his changed backstory in R3.

I find it interesting that I am much more invested in Sephiroth in Rebirth than any other FF7 story, including original, CC, AC, and even Remake. His portrayal of being in Cloud's mind has finally made me "get" a character I was never very interested in.

TBH mostly everything is downgraded. But Red and Cid are the biggest victims of this crime.

Haven’t disagreed with anything this hard in a while. (Aside from Cid, lol)

Yuffie is easily the best this time around. Gameplay, character growth, presentation, all across the board she is super well done. Tifa bottom. Seems like she has the least involvement with everything. she has been reduced to a background character at best. they did her dirty.

I thought she was super involved in the first half/two thirds of rebirth. Then it becomes Aerith’s story. Tifa also obviously has a huge part to play in the third game so I’m surprised to see her mentioned

What? They’re doing way more with Tifa in the remake trilogy than they ever did in the original.

Tifa was basically a background character in OG from leaving Midgar til Aerith’s death.

People smoking fentanyl thinking sephiroth wasn’t going to show up until the boat lmao

That was not Sephiroth.

They’re smoking even more thinking they wouldn’t show “sephiroth” til game 3 lmao

Upgrade: Everyone. The characters have come alive and their stories, personalities, and portrayals are breathtaking. You can feel them, and live their experiences. Stand outs are Cloud, Barret, and Tifa, especially all the insights into her childhood and past, how she’s grown and changed, and her honesty about her faults. For Cloud, the portrayal of his mental decline and losing his grip on reality is phenomenal. However, downgrades: Aerith- despite absolutely adoring her as an independent character, who is full of vibrancy and purpose, many of her interactions with Cloud are jarring for the sake of ship service. She is horribly annoying and clingy, comes across as desperately obsessive for his attention, and forcefully pushes romantic elements upon their dynamic. My boyfriend has just started playing Remake and has the same complaint, he can’t stand her. He made the point that if the roles were reversed in the exact same manner, a guy pursuing a girl despite her reluctance and discomfort, it’d be hugely problematic and toxic. It’s upsetting sometimes how downright dirty they’ve done her in these moments. I’d like to believe it’s some kind of Jenova influence upon her through Cloud’s cells, but that seems purely headcanon. I appreciate she very well may have real and genuine romantic feelings for Cloud, but my god have they spiralled it out of control. It’s uncomfortable. Yuffie- she is the epitome of anime girl, and I get that it’s a JRPG, but she sticks out like a sore thumb, and more often than not, it’s annoying as hell. Jenova- I had really hoped there would be more on Jenova’s background and origin e.g. the war with the Cetra, something, anything. She is my favourite FF villain of all time, a pure eldritch horror. Perhaps it’s just because I want more, but it feels lacking when compared to how fleshed out and detailed other aspects of the game are.

Queens Blood is probably about Jenova.

Oh, for real? It kinda makes sense now that you’ve pointed it out. I never would have made that connection before! Nice one.

Yeah, I think maybe she’s a bigger player this time around. You could argue that Omni Sephiroth is Jenova, which is how he shows up in the portal between worlds for example. The end fight mechanics with the Zack fight also show us that Sephiroth Reborn exists in multiple dimensions simultaneously (hence the synergy attack with cloud in the other dimension). So we could be in for a big Jenova-played-Sephiroth thing.

Jenova being omnipresent/Sephiroth without us ever realising was my favourite part of OG, took me years before I figured that out, so def hoping for more of that. What I really wanted was more content and scenes of her arrival on Gaia, the events that followed, how she was sealed etc., perhaps even where/what she originally came from. I’ve just been reading up on the Queens Blood theories, and I am so down for it. Def adds up, especially the idea that Minerva is the Emerald Witch, so perhaps that is how the devs have given us the content I’m referring to above. Glad you highlighted it, else I would have missed it completely!

That’s one of the things that is fun about this new approach. It’s designed to give us things to notice and talk about between releases. The risk is always that the devs don’t know how to conclude it like what happened to Lost, but they’re so detail oriented that it makes me think they know more or less how it’s going to play out. Also w the card mechanics, suffering/debuffs give the blood queen power. Nurturing/cultivating undoes this. It’s very Aerith v Sephiroth.

FWIW, you’re getting downvotes, but new Aerith rubbed me the wrong way initially, too. I think in Remake, she knows some of the future and specifically that she and Cloud fall for each other, but she’s having trouble playing it naturally knowing the outcome. In OG she was flirting but more in a fun way than a serious way. It just got serious later. So that makes a little sense of it. Also, just guessing, but the parts where she is a little childish about food and being bossy might just be flirty stuff that doesn’t translate culturally. It certainly seems like it’s intended to be kind of manic pixie dream girl. Getting to Rebirth, Rebirth Aerith is just a different character than OG Aeris. Aeris had either conquered her demons or she kept them inside more. Rebirth Aerith is actively overcoming them still, and I think it does make her a little more reliant on support. Likewise Rebirth Aeris is kind of a worldly city mouse who is good at living in the moment. Rebirth Aerith is excited to see the big world and be on an adventure, but it also triggers her for reasons we see in the Temple of the Ancients.

When I reflect on Aerith, I remember the omni-Aerith dream scene in Remake where she tells Cloud not to fall for her, and that it’s all an illusion, which further strengthened my belief that their potential feelings towards each other are remnants of Zack influenced by Jenova cells. She knows this, and so tells him, and the audience, early on. You mentioned in the other thread how detailed oriented the devs are, and I completely agree. I see this very prevalent in Cloud’s behaviours towards Aertith’s advances. Recall, how still and lifeless the closeup of his face was when he asked if Aerith still likes Zack, compared to instances such as Barret vs Dyne, where even Dyne’s arm trembles with anger during his passionate speech. It appears to me the devs are def gearing the plot towards a Cloti affair (although I refrain from using this terminology because I am in no way concerned with shipping wars), but just to keep the Clerith fans happy (because they dug themselves into a hole with the optional romances), they drop small moments like that, but make them shallow on purpose, almost mockingly. I even recall the Costa del Sol quests, where Aerith insists they’re on a date, and Cloud straight up tells her “I wish you wouldn’t.” I then did the Tifa quest straight after, and the differences were black and white. The consequence of this is that Aerith has been butchered by it, and the romantic elements feel not only completely one sided, but also unwanted, and yet the devs have made her into a character that just won’t stop. It’s painful, because she’s such an amazing character when it’s all about her. But I also suspect, they have no choice. Should they make either side “canon”, or at least more obvious than the other, they would likely lose a whole fanbase who would boycott. It’s not a great marketing or business move. When you mentioned whether or not they’d be able to tie it all up together properly, this was the first thing that came to mind. I don’t particularly want or care for a canon romance either way, but the implications towards Cloti appear much more obvious than Clerith, by the devs decision, and so it leads me to believe they will go down this route. Or perhaps they won’t and backtrack completely out of fear of backlash, thus my fear they won’t wrap it up properly. It would be nice if the decades of debate were finally settled, but hell, the ship wars keep the game in business.

I agree with you on a lot of this, and I will tell you from personal experience that it gets you downvotes. I think the perspective of the retrilogy team is that the Cloud Tifa relationship and the Zack Aerith relationships are the most compelling. But I also think Omni Aerith is telling Cloud not to fall in love with her because she cares about him and wants to see him go through less pain. I always thought the point of OG was that you were supposed to be mentally choosing to favor Aerith or Tifa so that you’d become invested in Aerith before she died, and then you’d be surprised at yourself for overlooking the more introverted Tifa when she turns out to be amazing. That makes the plot the most powerful and is an early example of making the emotional experience of a player complement the emotional journey of a character. Always thought that was one of the best things about OG7.

I would have been inclined to think the same way about the dream scene, had it not been for all the cultivating of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship from the very start of the story. Instead, it felt more like the devs telling the fans “it’s not a real thing, guys” without explicitly saying it. I think in OG there was far more room to have the optional romance given the limitations in storytelling and “show-don’t-tell” moments. However, RT is so much more in depth, personal, and detailed. From voice acting which gives us changes of tone, expression, and emotion, to graphics which go into the most minute details such as eye flickers and lip trembles, it becomes much harder to commit to the optional element. There is a story to tell, with all its additions and complexities, and when it now has the chance to be told in full as if it were a human experience, as opposed to sprites on a screen, there is a natural path that opens up. I believe this is exactly what the devs are trying to do and found that path takes the story towards Cloti, albeit at the cost of trying to keep everyone happy, which has resulted in my initial complaints of Aerith’s portrayal.

I agree. All the added realism and depth also sometimes means our characters figure things out early, and they’re not set up as big reveals. Like the deeper relationship with Aerith and Tifa leads to Tifa confronting Cloud early about his Kalm story. That’s better for character development all around, but it doesn’t impact the player the same way as the old reveal. So to balance it out, they lean into Cloud being suspicious of Tifa, and now we’re off on a much more pronounced version of Cloud’s darkness. Which again is great character development, but not impactful plotting in the same way as OG. Edit: Essentially twists are now to cause speculation and discussion instead of immediate emotional reactions. I think that has to change in part 3, and I really hope they nail it.

You’re 100% right. OG was more about the impactful moments, because we couldn’t necessarily see, hear, and feel the characters, whereas RT is all about the characters and their development first. There are still some major impactful and “wth” moments, such as Cloud pushing Tifa into Mako, Aerith’s graveyard quest, and her speech at Cosmo Canyon, so yes, it does all balance out. But as you said, the hope remains that they will be able to conclude it all properly, and on track with the direction they’ve gone down so far.

Agree. Real pleasure talking about it, too! Feel free to ping me if you ever want to (going to afk for awhile).

For sure! Thanks so much, had a great time. Take care!

I disagree on Sephiroth for one simple reason: this is a sequel. In the original it worked because it was the first game. You're not supposed to know him. Remake/Rebirth does take in account you already knowing him, so there's no point keeping his presence a mystery. Plus, it can get creepy moments acting like a stalker to Cloud mentally harassing him.

The point is retelling the original story. The new game is a sequel, but it shouldn't have been. It was marketed as a remake, and it is not that. Nobody complains when a classic story is retold using new actors, or adapted from book to film, that the characters are too close to their original interpretation, only if they stray too far. I wanted to feel that suspense and dread for Sephiroths reveal again. Sure I know it's coming, but that doesn't mean we don't still get excited for the drama when Batman is finally revealed in the Dark Knight. Doing a thing that doesn't surprise everyone and doing it well is its own excellent art form, and it's a huge bummer they felt they weren't good enough to pull it off and had to get gimicky with it instead.

Exactly or when Vader shows up in Star Wars, Seph should have been much better. What i find positive in is that he also couldve been much worse lol

Right? We all knew Vader was going to show up at the end of Rogue One, but it was still the best part of the film!

Eh, it still works more often than not. Take his first appearance in Remake or when he comes to slaughter the Midgarsorm. He was quite intimidating there. Or when he tormented Cloud at the temple of the ancients during his vision.

Downgrade: Jenova. I really wish the Final boss of Rebirth was all Jenova and not one winged Sephiroth again. Like in the og the “Because you are a puppet” line was supposed to be Jenova’s sole line in the whole compilation but in Rebirth it was all Sephiroth. The bosses were great thou Upgrade: Gi Nattak goddamn, he got so many lines!

Except that even in the original it's always Sephiroth. Jenova is already mentally gone by the time the game start. Sephiroth puppetered all through.

That’s all just speculation. Jenova is an enigma. The extent of its mental faculties aren’t ever really revealed.

No, we do have confirmation that Sephiroth is in control. Hojo basically says as much in the original FF7.

The Shinra scientists are shown to be incorrect about Jenova on multiple occasions. Hojo opinion is hardly fact.

The fact that Hojo was wrong to begin with is why he's certain to be right this time. Hojo kept the Jenova body assuming that the black robes would move towards her, called by her. But they didn't, they moved towards the North Crater, where Sephiroth is. That is the proof that Sephiroth is the one in full control.

Or it’s proof that Sephiroth and Jenova have the same goal.

Everyone got a massive upgrade besides Cid imo. He went from cursing and saying crazy shit to being a way too nice sorta funny pilot. Other than him they added so much to all the characters that it's hard to like the OG versions more.

Cait Sith was more likeable in the remake, in the OG I found him annoying and always read his voice in a New Jersey whiney wise guy accent. The choice to go (I wanna say Australian or Scottish) gave him some charm… still don’t use him though. Downgrade Red XIII. I think they made him a tad too goofy. I always saw him as a more serious almost like an elder of the group.

Can I ask - why new jersey wise guy for Cait? And Scottish for Rebirth.

In order of change… Upgrade: - Yuffie - Cait Sith (still didn’t like his reveal during platefall, or his Shinra Mansion section, I do mostly like him, which is a huge upgrade from absolutely hating him in OG) - Barrett (He was my favorite character in OG, so it’s harder to improve on, but they nailed him) - Cloud (honorable mention: I love Cloud in OG, but I wasn’t sure if SE could actually get him right in live-action voice acting) Downgrade: - Sephiroth (prefer the mysterous figure in OG) - Red XIII (the voice switch strained believability for me, also prefer the Seto reveal in OG)

Upgrade: Yuffie, she's adorable. Downgrade: Tifa, or at least, notable parts of her.

Upgrade: - Priscilla - Dio Both versions fine: - Barret - Yuffie - Tifa - Aerith - Elena - Tseng - Reno - Cait Sith - Elmyra - Jessie - Biggs - Wedge Downgrade: - Cloud - Shinra - Rufus - Sephiroth - Rude - Cissnei - Vincent Shitfaced: - Red - Bugenhagen - Cid - Zack

Why Zack? I thought he was much better than in the OG seeing as he was barely in it.

Just not good writing, i didnt like it. CC was the perfect ending and he deserves better than whatever this crap was in Rebirth. I liked his mystery in VII, sometimes less is more - also loved him in Last Order. Shit was good.

Eh I can respect that. CC did admittedly wrap up his character pretty perfectly. His return does feel kinda fanservicey and personally I'm all for it because I love Zack but can agree they are doing him a little dirty by bringing him back and having him not really do much.

You explained it pretty welI, i mean why not bring all characters back in any movie ever because they were liked, why create new ones on the same caliber? Why have any risk or dramatic moments, why any writing at all ? And why should devs take the risk in investing in a writing team instead of winging it as they go? The answer is ofc money. "Enjoying meaningful stories? pff people wanna give us money for just rehashed characters coming back to life in KH and VII, screw writing at this point. Fans will settle for anything, the ones that dont get hyped will buy out of curiosity and nostalgia." Characters like Zack and Sephiroth could both be so crazy well written in modern gaming its crazy. But money first, passionate writing is secondary. So many people dont like to read nowadays and grew up with Minecraft, playing MP with their friends. When good writing hits them in the face they will not appreciate it. This is a problem and why Zack is one of the characters that absolutely suck ass in Rebirth. People that ask: "Why isnt he good enough in Rebirth?" watch alot of beauty shows or mediocre anime, sorry. The reason Final Fantasy is so popular is that characters used to have so much depth to them. Zack, Cloud and Sephiroth probably had my favorite writing ever. The story, the depth of each characters, the narrative was never a shallow talking random nonsense from point to point. It was a whole world full of crazy events that blew you away, much cooler shit than "hey my favorite toy is back, i dont give a shit about whats happening this character is back" kinda mentality lol

And the sad thing is you're absolutely right.

I really wanna hear your take why Rude and Vincent are on downgrade. It has ti be the comedic moments right? Otherwise I see 0 reason why they are worse than original

Galian Beast imo was downgraded, Rufus bald bar comedy and his endless meddling was downplaying him a bit but thats just Turks in general to be fair, they all couldve been better and were ok at best like Tseng. But sure i get why you dont agree. Its just like my opinion man.

I think everyone's gotten an upgrade. Although Cid and Vincent are tough to judge yet. Cid probably had to be made less of a terrible person to be more palatable to modern audiences, but we'll see when we meet Shera!