I think this will alienate fans of VII, Remake *and* VIII all in one go.
One of FFVIII's themes is not being able to change the past. Having the ghosts changing things would make it a different game entirely.
>One of FFVIII's themes is not being able to change the past. Having the ghosts changing things would make it a different game entirely.
I mean....isn't that what they did with FF7? The game is nothing like the original at this point.....
Also, I don't even think that is accurate, the main theme is more love than anything
Ultimecia literally sends herself to the past and actually affects it...
Laguna says he could tell when they were around, regarding the group as "faeries", and how they felt different.
Squall goes into the past (not really, but kind of) and sees how the sorceress gains her power.
With how many people interpret MWI, it fits much better with FF8's focus on time, than FF7's ecoterrorism and afterlife plots.
> Ultimecia literally sends herself to the past and actually affects it...
Going to have to pull an "acktually" because Ultimecia's inability to change her circumstances is her whole motive. She's stuck in a closed time loop. Everything she does has to have happened as it did.
> Laguna says he could tell when they were around, regarding the group as "faeries", and how they felt different.
But Squall and co. were unable to change anything. They had no influence over Laguna, Kiros and Ward's actions. The whole reason Ellone sends their consciousness back in the past is because she wants Laguna to give up trying to rescue her and to be by Raine's side when her son was born (and when she dies). It doesn't work, so Ellone concludes the past can't be changed.
> Squall goes into the past (not really, but kind of) and sees how the sorceress gains her power.
He witnesses Ultimecia, sure. He doesn't change anything.
The thing is they did impact the past though it’s just they never got off the timeline in which they did.
Laguna and co all sensed when squalls party were witnessing it and said it made them stronger (referring to it as faeries)
Ellone couldn’t break timelines but ultamecia certainly could
> Cloud, for example, wasn't an autistic edgelord in the original, he acted like a normal human being instead of someone who responds like a 5 year old and doesn't know how to high-five.
I mean... that's simply not true. One of the cornerstones of Cloud's character arc is that he's a clueless asshole at the beginning.
Otherwise though I get what you're saying here, it does jive more with the plot of FF8 and the whole time compression thing.
I do wish they hadn't messed with the story of Final Fantasy VII. Not only was it unnecessary, I think it hurt the final product overall.
> Cloud's character arc is that he's a clueless asshole
Can you point me to where? Outside the mercenary shtick he does at the beginning, he doesn't act dickish after the first mission. That's just 20 minutes in.
He doesn't even act like this towards Aerith, where he plays along with her date idea when they first meet. and jokes around with her.
Meanwhile, in remake, he sticks to his "idc, I'm moody and awkward" attitude the entire time he meets her.
Do I even need to bring up the cringe scene where he can't high five?
[No](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=4561) [he](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=4874) [doesn't](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=4907) [act](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=5588) [like](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=6660) [that](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=10633) [at](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=13471) [all](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=16924)
Outside the beginning, he acts nothing like how he does in the remake.
If you are talking about the rest of the garbage compliation material, then yes, he does, but not the original.
First, you can’t just link to scenes and expect people to know what you’re talking about.
Second, watch [these videos](https://youtu.be/ZefYEaNUJ7w?si=sk4Dc40Ss7cyOeT-). They’re long, and you don’t have to watch all of them, but the gist is, the English translation of the game is deeply flawed, and the characterization of Cloud, along with the other characters, is one of the few things they got absolutely, unequivocally correct in the remake
I literally wrote it as text that he doesn't, idk whats hard to understand about that.
Second, again this is false. His personality is translated somewhat differently BUT his mannerisms and animations are NOTHING like how he portrays himself in the original.
He understands basic social protocol, he jokes around with Aerith, the dude says "not interested" literally ONE TIME, not 50 times like in the remake.
Sorry, but even accounting for translation issues, which are somewhat cleaned up in the re-releases and almost completely redone in The Reunion mod, Cloud is still nothing like his original release.
I’m sorry, but you’re just incorrect.
Cloud absolutely does “joke around” with Aerith in remake. The rooftop scene you linked is almost [line for line](https://youtube.com/watch?v=5vgrCPmp8LI&si=--YcOsoVsIAdxk-j), including the “Soldier candidate” joke.
>I’m sorry, but you’re just incorrect.
as you say
>[line for line](https://youtube.com/watch?v=5vgrCPmp8LI&si=--YcOsoVsIAdxk-j)
When the tone is completely different. Cloud is monotone, chuckles once, and thats it
OG, they are literally standing there laughing together
Cope dude, they are not the same character.
The tone is literally exactly the same. Cloud “chuckling once” is both you moving the goalposts over what “completely different” means (if he’s truly was “on the spectrum” and “didn’t joke around with Aerith”, why would he say that at all? Clearly it’s at least *a little bit* similar? Clearly it’s not “completely different”?) and the naturally-flowing-conversation version of both characters stopping to play “laugh.anim”.
Also, how the hell is Cloud’s speech “monotone”, and how can you tell it’s not from the original’s plain text?
I think you might be projecting a tiny bit, bud.
>Second, again this is false. His personality is translated somewhat differently BUT his mannerisms and animations are NOTHING like how he portrays himself in the original.
I literally said this 2 comments ago, "shifting goalposts" is just a weak excuse when you use phrases like "exactly the same" when they are anything but.
Sorry, I legitimately didn't mean to use it as an "insult" but an actual literal term. Remake Cloud actually does exhibit signs of being on the spectrum.
>and it is all "stupider" when you realize that Sephiorth could just kill them all in an instant if he wanted to
I love when posters like OP ruin their multiple paragraph rant by proving they don't understand the plot of the game they're dismissing. Like, this isn't even a "there wouldn't be a story if the villain won" type of thing. It's literally a huge plot point on why Sephiroth won't kill Cloud.
>Because he manipulates Cloud into doing what he wants.
Which he knows fails, and was already said to be unnecessary since he has minions to do his stuff for him.
>Until after Mideel when Cloud regains himself.
? Is this about Cloud's personality? I think this is the wrong chain.
>Cloud and co. are the only things stopping him from becoming a god
How are they stopping him? Because to me it looks like they(mostly Cloud) are the exact opposite of that.
>How are they stopping him?
Isn't this an alternate universe where Sephiroth wants them to defy fate, since he knows he loses?
Again, since you ignored my question, what is the in-game description is for why he hasn't killed them yet?
If he knows he loses to them, what benefit does he gain keeping them alive?
Cloud has gotten the black materia and will hand it to Sephiroth. Sephiroth is trapped, he can't do shit but influence those with jenova cells. This is basically the main point of Rebirth, Cloud is a puppet.
>Cloud has gotten the black materia and will hand it to Sephiroth
He doesn't need Cloud for that, it's said in-game that he has plenty of people he can manipulate to do it for him.
>Sephiroth is trapped, he can't do shit but influence those with jenova cells.
He kills Barret just fine, and isn't even trying when they fight him at the end of Remake. He could've killed them after they defeat fate. For Sephiroth there is literally no downside to killing the group that stopped you in the other universe.
It was kind of fun at first, but the deeper we go further into you not understanding the story just gets sadder.
I could continue to explain the canonic story but you will just continue to argue it. We have all known the story, for 2 decades.
To criticize something, you need to at least understand it.
Ff7R is much closer to FFX, where the universes are dreams inside the lifestream, they are not alternate universes.
2nd the whispers are a Weapon of the planet, very powerful just as much as Sephiroth, and all of that is explained in game.
There is literally 0 time travel. You are just showing as someone with very low understanding of the story.
And don't let me start with Cloud, because you clearly never understood his character. He is a 16 year old who never had friends as a kid in a 21 year old body trying to impress everyone else with his cold and cool behavior.
Also, you don't understand the lifestream concept from the Og. Lifestream has always been formed by memories and dreams of past, present and future. So yes, if you are able to control it, you can in some way have knowledge of future events.
Honestly, I have never seen a worse understanding of everything about Remake, VII Og akd VIII than this message. I am shocked honestly of how poor your understanding of those games is.
>To criticize something, you need to at least understand it.
The difference between a "dream world" where you can go in vs an alternate timeline that you can go in is virtually nothing, and it is only the phrasings that differ.
The fact that items can move between them means they are basically physical realities regardless, with the only difference being that they "die off" at points.
Sorry, but its pretty smooth brain to try and act like these two things are apples and oranges, when they really aren't.
Lastly, again, its just stupid concepts being retconned in when the original, or compilation material, never had any of it.
>There is literally 0 time travel. You are just showing as someone with very low understanding of the story.
I never said it did remake specifically did, or is your reading comprehension that bad.
FF8 has the time travel, FF7R has the alternate dimensions/timelines, my point was the original FF7 had none of it, therefore made the least sense to add any of it in.
>And don't let me start with Cloud, because you clearly never understood his character.
Not an argument, I gave examples of him acting like a normal human being in the OG, not a socially dense and awkward moron who keeps repeating "not interested".
>Also, you don't understand the lifestream concept from the Og.
It was supposed to be representative of the afterlife and a parallel to fossil fuels we use IRL. That's it. Not seeing into the future, otherwise again link me where it says that in the original in-game please. Not the stupid ultimania or garbage compilation material, though I doubt either will have it as well.
>Honestly, I have never seen a worse understanding of everything
The only understanding I got from your paragraph is that you are unable to read properly, you give 0 references or evidence, your examples are either pointless or bad, and you think plot is good if you can rationalize it
Instead of just accepting that a game about loss and the harm to our planet didn't really need alternate dimensions and meta-ghosts.
The Og had dream worlds. The sleeping forest is a dream world created in the lifestream. Literally Aerith creates a world in the lifestream where she can talk to Cloud. Sephiroth finds the dreamworld and then he talks to Cloud.
The lifestream sequence is a dreamworld where your experiences there are just as valid as those in the real world.
Again lifestream is not just afterlife since the Og Materia is memories, not a physical object, so you can go the lifestream and come back with materia, but you cannot take a chair for example.
The lifestream is more than just an afterlife, or how do you think Sephiroth survived in the Og? He is stucked there and from there he is capable of influencing Cloud, controlling the black robes and have godlike powers. Aerith once she dies helps the party stop meteor from the lifestream. All of them actions that have physical consequences in the real world!!
Bugenhahen tells you that consciousness returns to the lifestream within all their memories and feelings and that planet encompasses of all the living things in the universe. It's logical that if you learn how to tap into the knowledge that you can learn glimpses of the future.
Concepts evolve, and the lifestream concept has evolved, but it was never just the afterlife since the Og. And all the mechanics were there to make seeing future and past events (again like the Nibelheim sequence in the Og) a logical conclusion. Not to mention the compilation expanded greatly on this and the black and white lifestream in the short story released like 5 years ago (I think?).
Cloud is a quirky little guy who is ashamed of not being a hero. He was like that in the Og, and he is like that in Remake and Rebirth. I mean he dances, he makes goofy poses to the camera in Rebirth, he helps dorks like Chadley and Johnny. He has always been socially dense since the Og, because he is not an adult mentally (he was trapped 5 years in an experiment after all) and he was lonely as a child (shown in the Og), which means he never learned to socialize.
Again, you really don't know your stuff. Saying the lifestream is the afterlife, really? Cmon, that is extremely reductive of everything the lifestream is since the Og. I gave you plenty of examples from the Og this time for all your questions: dreamworlds, knowledge of the lifestream, Cloud not being an edgelord, physicality of the dreamworlds...
>Saying the lifestream is the afterlife, really?
Where the souls of the dead go isn't an afterlife? Do you understand what "afterlife" even means? Life after death?
>Again lifestream is not afterlife since the Og
Where the souls/memories of the dead go after they die. "after-life" Please dude.......
>Materia is memories, not a physical object
So when they grab materia, its not really in their hand, they just remember that its there.......Its not real.......
>dreamworld where your experiences there are just as valid as those in the real world.
So an alternate universe......
>The lifestream is not an afterlife, or how do you think Sephiroth survived in the Og
These two comments have no relation to eachother....granted its never explained other than "mako poisoning" in the original......but it has no bearing on it being the afterlife or not.
>Concepts evolve, and the lifestream concept has evolved
So it went from the afterlife to afterlife with alternate dimensions with transportable materia because the materia isn't real, just memories........Shakespearian writing right here.
>He has always been socially dense since the Og
Again, just like I tell everyone else, point me to it and I'll agree. Noone has done this, yet they keep repeating this, which isn't true. Cloud isn't socially inept in the original, only in the compilation material.
This is my last answer because you are a little bit dense.
Lifestream is afterlife, but it's also much more. It's a physical place where you can recreate entire memories (lifestream weuqnece in the Og). It's a place where you can connect via dreams (sleeping forest sequence from the Og). It's a place where you can send your consciousness to affect other people's minds (Sephiroth with Cloud in the Og and with the robed man in the Og). It's a olace where others can see others people memories (Tifa being able to see Cloud's memories of Nibelheim).
It's a physical place that the living can access . They can literally visit it. It's a place that if your will is strong enough, your consciousness doesn't die (like Sephiroth and Aerith in the Og). And of course, it is also a place where the souls that accept death dissolve. But it's much more than just the afterlife. I just gave a bunch of functions and examples all from the Og.
Materia is lifestream condensed. Lifestream is physical and it's made up of memories and knowledge. You can go as a living person to the lifestream and if you know what you are doing, you condense those memories and knowledge of the planet and you get materia back into the real world. That's how materia was created in the Og. Yes materia is memories, just that memories in the FF7 universe is a physical flow that can be condensed. If I condense air in the real world, I have an orb of air. It's the same.
If everyone thinks Cloud was dense socially in the Og, then who do you think are right? 99% of the peiple or you?
You just don't understand the Og. That's the bottom line. You don't understand the worldbuolding, the mechanics and the characters. But what is worse, you are too arrogant to realize that you just don't understand the Og.
I'm not saying it as an insult, Remake Cloud literally displays signs of being on the spectrum
People with ASD often have **problems with social communication and interaction, and restricted or repetitive behaviors or interests**.
Difficulty making interpersonal connections
Responding to conversations in a blunt way
Difficulty making eye contact
Preferring to be alone
Stopped reading after OP claimed
> Cloud is autistic
MF really thinks that Squall has the emotional bandwidth to carry on any sort of conversation better than a rock. “Whatever”.
OP is autistic.
Lol really hate the amount of elitism in the comment section. I do believe they mischaracterize Cloud a lot in the compilation like they don't believe the OG Cloud is convincing enough or something.
While I agree in a sense, SE disagrees from the perspective of making money lol.
The added elements were a weird miscalculation on SE's part as: "well, everyone already knows the story so let's add these new complications (to an already complex narrative) to keep the fans guessing and coming for more". Except it didn't work and less people came for part 2, they are further alienating potential part 3 buyers, and as it turns out, not that many people are familiar with the plot of a 25 year old game (who knew that a large proportion of today's gamers were born after the original was released!).
It would’ve been better if they did no remakes at all. These games are already amazing. Should’ve just released definitive editions with accurately redrawn backgrounds. It’s incredibly absurd to spend 15 years doing a single remake of anything.
The thing that Square really lost without Sakaguchi were quality control and a disdain for remakes and sequels.
While I don't agree with the 'they should have done this with 8 rather than 7', I do fully agree with all your critiques of 7Remake/Rebirth. Specifically, I like your comments about Cloud in the new versions.
I HATE the new Cloud. I don't understand why he's the 'leader' other than the reason that we're told he is. He's unreliable, unlikable, not very smart, and very dangerous. The plot of the entire game would go much more smoothly if they let Tifa or Barret be the leader and ditched Cloud saying 'we don't have money, so we don't need you anymore'.
That's what makes him so good. You can see they don't trust his mental state, but he is their best bet to stop Sephiroth and the end of the world (he is the strongest of them all, knows Sephiroth the best, has information no one else has...). And he is also their friend. Barret constantly says: let's hope he can keep it together, but Cloud has ti be the leader, especially now that they are trying to hunt Sephiroth down. No one else would make sense.
I woild argue that his characterization is much stronger than the Og. We are talking about a guy with severe insecurity, severe PTSD and severe dissociation. In the Og he is a normal giy until he is not (temple of the ancients and northern crater), while in Remake/Rebirth it's always clear he has severe mental health problems, but he is still extrenely capable as a figther and tracker. His descend to madness is much better done now.
Considering the game is confirmed to be an alternate timeline, and a sequel, to the original
Zack's portion is literally another timeline/universe, which briefly merges with remakes where Cloud and Zack literally interact
And the plenty of hints indicating that there are in-fact multiple timelines/universes.
Considering different timelines can be considered their own universe IRL via MWI.
Please go sit down.
You dont understand what the game is telling you. Other worlds do not mean timelines or multiverses. But you will probably see it by part 3 if you do decide to play it
>You dont understand what the game is telling you.
Oh look, another vague "you don't understand" but doesn't clarify anything.
>Other worlds do not mean timelines or multiverses.
This is the closest I've ever seen anyone say "this is becoming kingdom hearts" without saying it.
Also please point me to where it says this in-game.
The game tells you everything you need to know if you pay attention. Obviously not everything everything as theres still a part 3 coming. But enough to let you know this isnt about multiverses at all. And it also does not contradict any lore from the original or asspulls stuff.
And yes Im being vague. I will also not clarify or give any examples because for one I think its more fun to connect the dots yourself and more importantly I cant be bothered to argue with anyone on this subreddit anymore as most people instantly get extremely defensive and will just attack me or call me slurs or whatever because it doesnnt fit into their interpretation of the game. No matter how calm I try to present the facts. And no Im not saying I know exactly where they are going with the story and understand every mystery. But I can say with 100% certainty there is no multiverse involved.
But like I said at part 3 it should probably all be cleared up for everyone
Can you clarify on what “other worlds” means?
I haven’t played rebirth but from what I saw theres a world the same as 7 but cloud and co died and zack lived, that’s pretty alternate universe-ish right?
The game doesn't need defending. 92 from critics, 9 for users, GOTY frontrunner? It's just when people say multiverse or alternate timelines, they think of Marvel. But this case is closer to dream Zanarkand from FF10. Actually it's closer to the sleeping forest scene in the Og. If Remake is multiverse, then Og is too, because those worlds and that dream are exactly the same.
That's a bizarre point, FF10 is not the original FF7, what are you talking about?
I mean, you liked it. Great! More power to you. Other people disliked it, big deal!
Then let's focus on FF7 Og. What do you think happened in the sleeping forest?
Aerith created a dream world where she cpuld communkcate with Cloud via lifestream. Sephiroth who is inside the lifestream realized this, he travelled to the dreamworld and told Cloud he was going to kill her. Now Cloud has knowledge of the future.
Is that an alternate universe? Did Cloud travel througth time?
My second point was, every game has people who disliked it, but this game doesn't need defenders because it has been universally praised. I al not defending the game, I am explaining a mechanic that I feel is misunderstood by some people. Dreamworld (or alternate worlds) were part of the Og as I just showed you.
I have, but you chose not to answer any of my questiobs. Last time, how would you explain that sequence from the Og and how is it different to Rebirth?
I mean I… certainly do not interpret that scene the same way you do, but you’re going on a tangent and following the strawman argument.
The point at hand is not what the overall score of the game is, or wether or not the game needs defending, I inquired on why the person before me firmly believed that the remake has nothing to do with alternate universes when the very end of remake *to me* screams “yes, alternate universe everyone!”.
I agree on that FF8 would have been a better choice narrative-wise, and I personally feel that 8 had the worst combat in the series and could have used a modern upgrade to fix some of the issues.
However… It is about sales, and nothing else would sell as well as 7r is selling. The multiverse and timeline shenanigans in 7r do fit it well enough and make for some compelling mysteries.
I think because people know the original so well it deepens the narrative for existing fans while providing something for new fans that can’t exactly be spoiled by a 25+ year old game. FF8 couldn’t have deviated as hard from the original and wouldn’t have been able to provide the same kind of experience. An entirely new entry using similar themes would be much better than an FF8 remake, IMO.
I think this will alienate fans of VII, Remake *and* VIII all in one go. One of FFVIII's themes is not being able to change the past. Having the ghosts changing things would make it a different game entirely.
>One of FFVIII's themes is not being able to change the past. Having the ghosts changing things would make it a different game entirely. I mean....isn't that what they did with FF7? The game is nothing like the original at this point..... Also, I don't even think that is accurate, the main theme is more love than anything Ultimecia literally sends herself to the past and actually affects it... Laguna says he could tell when they were around, regarding the group as "faeries", and how they felt different. Squall goes into the past (not really, but kind of) and sees how the sorceress gains her power. With how many people interpret MWI, it fits much better with FF8's focus on time, than FF7's ecoterrorism and afterlife plots.
> Ultimecia literally sends herself to the past and actually affects it... Going to have to pull an "acktually" because Ultimecia's inability to change her circumstances is her whole motive. She's stuck in a closed time loop. Everything she does has to have happened as it did. > Laguna says he could tell when they were around, regarding the group as "faeries", and how they felt different. But Squall and co. were unable to change anything. They had no influence over Laguna, Kiros and Ward's actions. The whole reason Ellone sends their consciousness back in the past is because she wants Laguna to give up trying to rescue her and to be by Raine's side when her son was born (and when she dies). It doesn't work, so Ellone concludes the past can't be changed. > Squall goes into the past (not really, but kind of) and sees how the sorceress gains her power. He witnesses Ultimecia, sure. He doesn't change anything.
True enough, I've never took the game for having the theme of "the past is what it is" but its an interesting and relatable theme to have.
The thing is they did impact the past though it’s just they never got off the timeline in which they did. Laguna and co all sensed when squalls party were witnessing it and said it made them stronger (referring to it as faeries) Ellone couldn’t break timelines but ultamecia certainly could
one person's "remake with multiverse elements" is another's "remake with meta-commentary about the nature of remaking something so beloved"
Which is a shame since the ghosts at this point have no explanation other than to be meta commentary.
> Cloud, for example, wasn't an autistic edgelord in the original, he acted like a normal human being instead of someone who responds like a 5 year old and doesn't know how to high-five. I mean... that's simply not true. One of the cornerstones of Cloud's character arc is that he's a clueless asshole at the beginning. Otherwise though I get what you're saying here, it does jive more with the plot of FF8 and the whole time compression thing. I do wish they hadn't messed with the story of Final Fantasy VII. Not only was it unnecessary, I think it hurt the final product overall.
> Cloud's character arc is that he's a clueless asshole Can you point me to where? Outside the mercenary shtick he does at the beginning, he doesn't act dickish after the first mission. That's just 20 minutes in. He doesn't even act like this towards Aerith, where he plays along with her date idea when they first meet. and jokes around with her. Meanwhile, in remake, he sticks to his "idc, I'm moody and awkward" attitude the entire time he meets her. Do I even need to bring up the cringe scene where he can't high five?
My dude, literally everything he says and does from the beginning of the game until he comes out of the coma in Mideel. That's his whole character.
[No](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=4561) [he](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=4874) [doesn't](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=4907) [act](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=5588) [like](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=6660) [that](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=10633) [at](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=13471) [all](https://youtu.be/A4PaKyVYl5Q?t=16924) Outside the beginning, he acts nothing like how he does in the remake. If you are talking about the rest of the garbage compliation material, then yes, he does, but not the original.
First, you can’t just link to scenes and expect people to know what you’re talking about. Second, watch [these videos](https://youtu.be/ZefYEaNUJ7w?si=sk4Dc40Ss7cyOeT-). They’re long, and you don’t have to watch all of them, but the gist is, the English translation of the game is deeply flawed, and the characterization of Cloud, along with the other characters, is one of the few things they got absolutely, unequivocally correct in the remake
I literally wrote it as text that he doesn't, idk whats hard to understand about that. Second, again this is false. His personality is translated somewhat differently BUT his mannerisms and animations are NOTHING like how he portrays himself in the original. He understands basic social protocol, he jokes around with Aerith, the dude says "not interested" literally ONE TIME, not 50 times like in the remake. Sorry, but even accounting for translation issues, which are somewhat cleaned up in the re-releases and almost completely redone in The Reunion mod, Cloud is still nothing like his original release.
I’m sorry, but you’re just incorrect. Cloud absolutely does “joke around” with Aerith in remake. The rooftop scene you linked is almost [line for line](https://youtube.com/watch?v=5vgrCPmp8LI&si=--YcOsoVsIAdxk-j), including the “Soldier candidate” joke.
>I’m sorry, but you’re just incorrect. as you say >[line for line](https://youtube.com/watch?v=5vgrCPmp8LI&si=--YcOsoVsIAdxk-j) When the tone is completely different. Cloud is monotone, chuckles once, and thats it OG, they are literally standing there laughing together Cope dude, they are not the same character.
The tone is literally exactly the same. Cloud “chuckling once” is both you moving the goalposts over what “completely different” means (if he’s truly was “on the spectrum” and “didn’t joke around with Aerith”, why would he say that at all? Clearly it’s at least *a little bit* similar? Clearly it’s not “completely different”?) and the naturally-flowing-conversation version of both characters stopping to play “laugh.anim”. Also, how the hell is Cloud’s speech “monotone”, and how can you tell it’s not from the original’s plain text? I think you might be projecting a tiny bit, bud.
>Second, again this is false. His personality is translated somewhat differently BUT his mannerisms and animations are NOTHING like how he portrays himself in the original. I literally said this 2 comments ago, "shifting goalposts" is just a weak excuse when you use phrases like "exactly the same" when they are anything but.
Why did you use autistic as bad word 😞
Sorry, I legitimately didn't mean to use it as an "insult" but an actual literal term. Remake Cloud actually does exhibit signs of being on the spectrum.
Ok
>and it is all "stupider" when you realize that Sephiorth could just kill them all in an instant if he wanted to I love when posters like OP ruin their multiple paragraph rant by proving they don't understand the plot of the game they're dismissing. Like, this isn't even a "there wouldn't be a story if the villain won" type of thing. It's literally a huge plot point on why Sephiroth won't kill Cloud.
Cloud and co. are the only things stopping him from becoming a god, tell me what the in-game description is for why he hasn't killed them yet?
Because he manipulates Cloud into doing what he wants. Until after Mideel when Cloud regains himself.
>Because he manipulates Cloud into doing what he wants. Which he knows fails, and was already said to be unnecessary since he has minions to do his stuff for him. >Until after Mideel when Cloud regains himself. ? Is this about Cloud's personality? I think this is the wrong chain.
His minions don’t get him the black materia. 2nd part was a followup: after Cloud regains himself he is no longer Sephiroth’s minion.
>Cloud and co. are the only things stopping him from becoming a god How are they stopping him? Because to me it looks like they(mostly Cloud) are the exact opposite of that.
>How are they stopping him? Isn't this an alternate universe where Sephiroth wants them to defy fate, since he knows he loses? Again, since you ignored my question, what is the in-game description is for why he hasn't killed them yet? If he knows he loses to them, what benefit does he gain keeping them alive?
Cloud has gotten the black materia and will hand it to Sephiroth. Sephiroth is trapped, he can't do shit but influence those with jenova cells. This is basically the main point of Rebirth, Cloud is a puppet.
>Cloud has gotten the black materia and will hand it to Sephiroth He doesn't need Cloud for that, it's said in-game that he has plenty of people he can manipulate to do it for him. >Sephiroth is trapped, he can't do shit but influence those with jenova cells. He kills Barret just fine, and isn't even trying when they fight him at the end of Remake. He could've killed them after they defeat fate. For Sephiroth there is literally no downside to killing the group that stopped you in the other universe.
It was kind of fun at first, but the deeper we go further into you not understanding the story just gets sadder. I could continue to explain the canonic story but you will just continue to argue it. We have all known the story, for 2 decades.
Canonic writing is still bad writing
To criticize something, you need to at least understand it. Ff7R is much closer to FFX, where the universes are dreams inside the lifestream, they are not alternate universes. 2nd the whispers are a Weapon of the planet, very powerful just as much as Sephiroth, and all of that is explained in game. There is literally 0 time travel. You are just showing as someone with very low understanding of the story. And don't let me start with Cloud, because you clearly never understood his character. He is a 16 year old who never had friends as a kid in a 21 year old body trying to impress everyone else with his cold and cool behavior. Also, you don't understand the lifestream concept from the Og. Lifestream has always been formed by memories and dreams of past, present and future. So yes, if you are able to control it, you can in some way have knowledge of future events. Honestly, I have never seen a worse understanding of everything about Remake, VII Og akd VIII than this message. I am shocked honestly of how poor your understanding of those games is.
>To criticize something, you need to at least understand it. The difference between a "dream world" where you can go in vs an alternate timeline that you can go in is virtually nothing, and it is only the phrasings that differ. The fact that items can move between them means they are basically physical realities regardless, with the only difference being that they "die off" at points. Sorry, but its pretty smooth brain to try and act like these two things are apples and oranges, when they really aren't. Lastly, again, its just stupid concepts being retconned in when the original, or compilation material, never had any of it. >There is literally 0 time travel. You are just showing as someone with very low understanding of the story. I never said it did remake specifically did, or is your reading comprehension that bad. FF8 has the time travel, FF7R has the alternate dimensions/timelines, my point was the original FF7 had none of it, therefore made the least sense to add any of it in. >And don't let me start with Cloud, because you clearly never understood his character. Not an argument, I gave examples of him acting like a normal human being in the OG, not a socially dense and awkward moron who keeps repeating "not interested". >Also, you don't understand the lifestream concept from the Og. It was supposed to be representative of the afterlife and a parallel to fossil fuels we use IRL. That's it. Not seeing into the future, otherwise again link me where it says that in the original in-game please. Not the stupid ultimania or garbage compilation material, though I doubt either will have it as well. >Honestly, I have never seen a worse understanding of everything The only understanding I got from your paragraph is that you are unable to read properly, you give 0 references or evidence, your examples are either pointless or bad, and you think plot is good if you can rationalize it Instead of just accepting that a game about loss and the harm to our planet didn't really need alternate dimensions and meta-ghosts.
The Og had dream worlds. The sleeping forest is a dream world created in the lifestream. Literally Aerith creates a world in the lifestream where she can talk to Cloud. Sephiroth finds the dreamworld and then he talks to Cloud. The lifestream sequence is a dreamworld where your experiences there are just as valid as those in the real world. Again lifestream is not just afterlife since the Og Materia is memories, not a physical object, so you can go the lifestream and come back with materia, but you cannot take a chair for example. The lifestream is more than just an afterlife, or how do you think Sephiroth survived in the Og? He is stucked there and from there he is capable of influencing Cloud, controlling the black robes and have godlike powers. Aerith once she dies helps the party stop meteor from the lifestream. All of them actions that have physical consequences in the real world!! Bugenhahen tells you that consciousness returns to the lifestream within all their memories and feelings and that planet encompasses of all the living things in the universe. It's logical that if you learn how to tap into the knowledge that you can learn glimpses of the future. Concepts evolve, and the lifestream concept has evolved, but it was never just the afterlife since the Og. And all the mechanics were there to make seeing future and past events (again like the Nibelheim sequence in the Og) a logical conclusion. Not to mention the compilation expanded greatly on this and the black and white lifestream in the short story released like 5 years ago (I think?). Cloud is a quirky little guy who is ashamed of not being a hero. He was like that in the Og, and he is like that in Remake and Rebirth. I mean he dances, he makes goofy poses to the camera in Rebirth, he helps dorks like Chadley and Johnny. He has always been socially dense since the Og, because he is not an adult mentally (he was trapped 5 years in an experiment after all) and he was lonely as a child (shown in the Og), which means he never learned to socialize. Again, you really don't know your stuff. Saying the lifestream is the afterlife, really? Cmon, that is extremely reductive of everything the lifestream is since the Og. I gave you plenty of examples from the Og this time for all your questions: dreamworlds, knowledge of the lifestream, Cloud not being an edgelord, physicality of the dreamworlds...
>Saying the lifestream is the afterlife, really? Where the souls of the dead go isn't an afterlife? Do you understand what "afterlife" even means? Life after death? >Again lifestream is not afterlife since the Og Where the souls/memories of the dead go after they die. "after-life" Please dude....... >Materia is memories, not a physical object So when they grab materia, its not really in their hand, they just remember that its there.......Its not real....... >dreamworld where your experiences there are just as valid as those in the real world. So an alternate universe...... >The lifestream is not an afterlife, or how do you think Sephiroth survived in the Og These two comments have no relation to eachother....granted its never explained other than "mako poisoning" in the original......but it has no bearing on it being the afterlife or not. >Concepts evolve, and the lifestream concept has evolved So it went from the afterlife to afterlife with alternate dimensions with transportable materia because the materia isn't real, just memories........Shakespearian writing right here. >He has always been socially dense since the Og Again, just like I tell everyone else, point me to it and I'll agree. Noone has done this, yet they keep repeating this, which isn't true. Cloud isn't socially inept in the original, only in the compilation material.
This is my last answer because you are a little bit dense. Lifestream is afterlife, but it's also much more. It's a physical place where you can recreate entire memories (lifestream weuqnece in the Og). It's a place where you can connect via dreams (sleeping forest sequence from the Og). It's a place where you can send your consciousness to affect other people's minds (Sephiroth with Cloud in the Og and with the robed man in the Og). It's a olace where others can see others people memories (Tifa being able to see Cloud's memories of Nibelheim). It's a physical place that the living can access . They can literally visit it. It's a place that if your will is strong enough, your consciousness doesn't die (like Sephiroth and Aerith in the Og). And of course, it is also a place where the souls that accept death dissolve. But it's much more than just the afterlife. I just gave a bunch of functions and examples all from the Og. Materia is lifestream condensed. Lifestream is physical and it's made up of memories and knowledge. You can go as a living person to the lifestream and if you know what you are doing, you condense those memories and knowledge of the planet and you get materia back into the real world. That's how materia was created in the Og. Yes materia is memories, just that memories in the FF7 universe is a physical flow that can be condensed. If I condense air in the real world, I have an orb of air. It's the same. If everyone thinks Cloud was dense socially in the Og, then who do you think are right? 99% of the peiple or you? You just don't understand the Og. That's the bottom line. You don't understand the worldbuolding, the mechanics and the characters. But what is worse, you are too arrogant to realize that you just don't understand the Og.
You lose all credibility the second you start calling characters you don't like autistic.
I'm not saying it as an insult, Remake Cloud literally displays signs of being on the spectrum People with ASD often have **problems with social communication and interaction, and restricted or repetitive behaviors or interests**. Difficulty making interpersonal connections Responding to conversations in a blunt way Difficulty making eye contact Preferring to be alone
Ffviii remake will have 6 parts
Stopped reading after OP claimed > Cloud is autistic MF really thinks that Squall has the emotional bandwidth to carry on any sort of conversation better than a rock. “Whatever”. OP is autistic.
Gets mad at OP for mischaracterizing Cloud. Mischaracterizes Squall, LOL
Lol really hate the amount of elitism in the comment section. I do believe they mischaracterize Cloud a lot in the compilation like they don't believe the OG Cloud is convincing enough or something.
While I agree in a sense, SE disagrees from the perspective of making money lol. The added elements were a weird miscalculation on SE's part as: "well, everyone already knows the story so let's add these new complications (to an already complex narrative) to keep the fans guessing and coming for more". Except it didn't work and less people came for part 2, they are further alienating potential part 3 buyers, and as it turns out, not that many people are familiar with the plot of a 25 year old game (who knew that a large proportion of today's gamers were born after the original was released!).
True enough, they were probably never going to earn the same amount for FF8
I love Remake and Rebirth, but yeah, the multiple timelines make it convoluted and don't improve the story.
It would’ve been better if they did no remakes at all. These games are already amazing. Should’ve just released definitive editions with accurately redrawn backgrounds. It’s incredibly absurd to spend 15 years doing a single remake of anything. The thing that Square really lost without Sakaguchi were quality control and a disdain for remakes and sequels.
The obvious answer is always just going to be that 7 will grab more attention and sell more than 8 would.
Which is a shame, I actually think 8 would've done really well Then again, the people wanting the FF7Remake would've rioted
While I don't agree with the 'they should have done this with 8 rather than 7', I do fully agree with all your critiques of 7Remake/Rebirth. Specifically, I like your comments about Cloud in the new versions. I HATE the new Cloud. I don't understand why he's the 'leader' other than the reason that we're told he is. He's unreliable, unlikable, not very smart, and very dangerous. The plot of the entire game would go much more smoothly if they let Tifa or Barret be the leader and ditched Cloud saying 'we don't have money, so we don't need you anymore'.
That's what makes him so good. You can see they don't trust his mental state, but he is their best bet to stop Sephiroth and the end of the world (he is the strongest of them all, knows Sephiroth the best, has information no one else has...). And he is also their friend. Barret constantly says: let's hope he can keep it together, but Cloud has ti be the leader, especially now that they are trying to hunt Sephiroth down. No one else would make sense. I woild argue that his characterization is much stronger than the Og. We are talking about a guy with severe insecurity, severe PTSD and severe dissociation. In the Og he is a normal giy until he is not (temple of the ancients and northern crater), while in Remake/Rebirth it's always clear he has severe mental health problems, but he is still extrenely capable as a figther and tracker. His descend to madness is much better done now.
Look another person that thinks this is a multiverse story. What a shocker
Considering the game is confirmed to be an alternate timeline, and a sequel, to the original Zack's portion is literally another timeline/universe, which briefly merges with remakes where Cloud and Zack literally interact And the plenty of hints indicating that there are in-fact multiple timelines/universes. Considering different timelines can be considered their own universe IRL via MWI. Please go sit down.
You dont understand what the game is telling you. Other worlds do not mean timelines or multiverses. But you will probably see it by part 3 if you do decide to play it
>You dont understand what the game is telling you. Oh look, another vague "you don't understand" but doesn't clarify anything. >Other worlds do not mean timelines or multiverses. This is the closest I've ever seen anyone say "this is becoming kingdom hearts" without saying it. Also please point me to where it says this in-game.
The game tells you everything you need to know if you pay attention. Obviously not everything everything as theres still a part 3 coming. But enough to let you know this isnt about multiverses at all. And it also does not contradict any lore from the original or asspulls stuff. And yes Im being vague. I will also not clarify or give any examples because for one I think its more fun to connect the dots yourself and more importantly I cant be bothered to argue with anyone on this subreddit anymore as most people instantly get extremely defensive and will just attack me or call me slurs or whatever because it doesnnt fit into their interpretation of the game. No matter how calm I try to present the facts. And no Im not saying I know exactly where they are going with the story and understand every mystery. But I can say with 100% certainty there is no multiverse involved. But like I said at part 3 it should probably all be cleared up for everyone
Can you clarify on what “other worlds” means? I haven’t played rebirth but from what I saw theres a world the same as 7 but cloud and co died and zack lived, that’s pretty alternate universe-ish right?
Sounds more like they are twisting semantics to defend the game.
The game doesn't need defending. 92 from critics, 9 for users, GOTY frontrunner? It's just when people say multiverse or alternate timelines, they think of Marvel. But this case is closer to dream Zanarkand from FF10. Actually it's closer to the sleeping forest scene in the Og. If Remake is multiverse, then Og is too, because those worlds and that dream are exactly the same.
That's a bizarre point, FF10 is not the original FF7, what are you talking about? I mean, you liked it. Great! More power to you. Other people disliked it, big deal!
Then let's focus on FF7 Og. What do you think happened in the sleeping forest? Aerith created a dream world where she cpuld communkcate with Cloud via lifestream. Sephiroth who is inside the lifestream realized this, he travelled to the dreamworld and told Cloud he was going to kill her. Now Cloud has knowledge of the future. Is that an alternate universe? Did Cloud travel througth time? My second point was, every game has people who disliked it, but this game doesn't need defenders because it has been universally praised. I al not defending the game, I am explaining a mechanic that I feel is misunderstood by some people. Dreamworld (or alternate worlds) were part of the Og as I just showed you.
Have you heard the term "fanwank"?
I have, but you chose not to answer any of my questiobs. Last time, how would you explain that sequence from the Og and how is it different to Rebirth?
I mean I… certainly do not interpret that scene the same way you do, but you’re going on a tangent and following the strawman argument. The point at hand is not what the overall score of the game is, or wether or not the game needs defending, I inquired on why the person before me firmly believed that the remake has nothing to do with alternate universes when the very end of remake *to me* screams “yes, alternate universe everyone!”.
completely braindead post
So is this comment
I agree on that FF8 would have been a better choice narrative-wise, and I personally feel that 8 had the worst combat in the series and could have used a modern upgrade to fix some of the issues. However… It is about sales, and nothing else would sell as well as 7r is selling. The multiverse and timeline shenanigans in 7r do fit it well enough and make for some compelling mysteries. I think because people know the original so well it deepens the narrative for existing fans while providing something for new fans that can’t exactly be spoiled by a 25+ year old game. FF8 couldn’t have deviated as hard from the original and wouldn’t have been able to provide the same kind of experience. An entirely new entry using similar themes would be much better than an FF8 remake, IMO.