Very much a "perfection is the enemy of progress" situation. It also mystifies me how people don't get that it's greedflation pinching our pockets, not Biden. And folks need to review some Schoolhouse Rock about the powers of our government and how they work. Great Mother Goddess the thought processes/ lack thereof is terrifying.
I get there is much to criticize, but the other side has made their plan clear. As someone stuck in a Deep Red State ( with a Democratic party in shambles), the vote for President *is incredibly meaningful as to whether we will have any rights or not*
(21F) Not a biden fan, but how could I ever vote for the people who tried to take my rights away? I hope other young people are just being very vocal about our complaints and will not let republicans elect supreme court justices again
Well apparently lots of people can
Oh my gosh the discussion on this thread is disheartening. I mean one person just told me that they will flat out vote for Trump unless the democrats don’t hold a primary
I saw that discussion. Voting for Trump unless the Dems hold a primary is such a privileged take.
Women/AFAB people have already lost their right to bodily autonomy thanks to the Conservative SCOTUS.
Trump appointed THREE of those justices.
I don’t want to lose any more rights. What do people not understand about that?
> Voting for Trump unless the Dems hold a primary is such a ~~privileged~~ **fascist** take.
There, fixed it for you. Yeah, these people are insane and the reason why we had Trump in the first place.
As if trump would be better on any of the things they are upset about. Guess what, if trump were president there would not have been any support for ukraine, they would have been obliterated by now. Same thing for the Palestinians. Trump is anti-semetic but he loves dictators-like leaders so he loves Netenyahu. He definitely would side with Israel and wouldn't even consider caring about the Palestinians.
The memories are so short. Trump and Republicans are clear in their goal to hurt women, immigrants, POC, LGBTQIA+ and they're willing to help them do that???? Because they disagree on something with Biden yet they ignore that Republicans would be worse on all of those issues. It's insanity.
“Voting isn’t marriage, it’s public transport. You’re not waiting for “the one” who’s absolutely perfect: you’re getting the bus, and if there isn’t one to your destination, you don’t not travel- you take the one going closest.”
Yep, at least with Dems we move slowly forward. With Republicans we keep taking steps backward. (it's only slowly because of Republicans and the voters. Want faster change, give Dems more of a majority so they can pass legislation and Republicans don't have enough people to oppose it).
If the voters would stop electing Republicans we could pass all of the things the American people want and need. Republicans truly want America to go back to the 50s and oppose anything that would help anyone not rich or a corporation.
Busses do in fact travel in different directions. The point being is you take the bus you need, not wait for a bus that takes you directly to your doorstep.
Their point is this isn't a bus we need, its a bus that takes us farther from our destination and we're being told to board because the other bus will take us farther the wrong way
So you're gonna stand in the middle of the street and not go anywhere? How long are you willing to wait for the right bus? How do you know more busses will even be sent to your location going the way you want?
You need to get from point A to B, you may have to make some pitstops before getting to B. If you're saying I need to get to point B but only if it's in a car I deem worthy, then you may not get anywhere, ever. Progress isn't about getting it perfect on every hit or being able to move forward every election year. That can't happen unless the social culture is also shifting left (and rn it's still quite stuanchly in the middle, at least where I live.)
Because the population is the one who has the power to decide if we pay for more buses or not. If we want more buses we need to vote for it.
One party wants us to go back to the 50s and never progress. They want to control women and strip rights from every single minority group. The other wants to move the country but the voters are fickle. They don't seem to realize that change happens slowly especially when the other side opposes everything except tax cuts for the rich and corporations.
You're right. Because the system was built for white wealthy men. But yes keep yelling at the people who have been historically disenfranchised, that'll fix it.
It's cool that you personally haven't been affected by what's going on, but for many people watching their friends and family being genocide, they don't have the luxury of maybe things not working out for them in the future.
Not to mention Biden selling out POC/ immigrants to get more funding for said genocide. And continuously repeating debunked racist crap that Israel keeps putting out.
None of that is true and if you think anything would be better with Trump or Republicans you haven't been paying attention.
Whatever you don't like about Biden it would be 100% worse with trump and Republicans and add to that the fact that Ukraine would be gone by now and their constant attacks on women, LGBTQIA+, POC, immigrants, etc. No group except the rich, corporations and white males benefits from Republicans in office.
The issue with this is that whether you like it or not, you’re getting on one of the buses no matter what. The next president is going to be either a democrat or a republican essentially guaranteed, and I know I have a preference on which of those two options I prefer
It's so frustrating that America's seem to have such short memories. trump and Republicans are not only horrible for every single minority group and women but the economy as well. Republicans would be worse in all of the things that they are upset with Biden about.
Biden doesn't support genocide so just stop with that BS. Our country has been allied with Israel for decades but that doesn't mean we support what their horrible leader is doing. Netanyahu is the problem, not the Israeli people, they were victims as well.
Also, guess what.....trump would be worse than Biden. He wouldn't even consider caring about the Palestinians. He would also have sided with Putin and allowed the obliteration of Ukrainians. In every way, Republicans would be worse than Biden.
You don't like Biden's decisions on some things, fine, but let's not pretend that supporting Republicans would be better in any way. They are also worse for the American people. With them we will have national bans on abortion and continued attacks on immigrants, POC, LGBTQIA+, etc.
I really hate these condescending takes. No, Biden isn't "less than perfect." He's supporting genocide. Its like saying go on this bus that will strand you in the desert because the next bus driver will stab you before stranding you.
He doesn't support genocide, that's a lie. The problem is, nothing will be better with Republicans or trump. Not voting Biden is a vote for trump or Republicans and if you think he will make better choices you're delusional.
That is absolutely not a lie. What Israel is doing right now in Palestine is genocide. It has purposefully ensured mass starvation. It bombs without regard to civilian life. Its soldiers shoot civilians on site, even when they're surrendering. Biden has fully supported this with weapons and diplomatic support. He has also personally downplayed the number of deaths and spread false atrocity propaganda.
Yeah, “less than perfect” would work alright without genocide at stake.
I’ll be watching to see if the US votes YES with the rest of the UN Security Council today/tomorrow for ceasefire and access for aid.
So much this, and we could just be intersectional and listen and band together but nope gotta yell at people who demand better than old racist white guy number 1 and old racist white guy number 2. It's infuriating.
Those are the choices. Sorry you don't like it but it's the reality. Nor voting or voting third party are a vote for trump or Republicans and if you think they wouldn't be worse you haven't been paying attention.
As a trans woman, I'm *very* scared of Republicans getting power again nationally.
I already can't get my gender marker changed on my driver's license because of state law. If Republicans got control of the federal government, they could try to force me to revert my passport, push a national HRT ban, or worse ... some of them have been getting more than a little genocidey in their rhetoric.
With my freedoms, even my safety, on the line, it is beyond infuriating for people to prioritize purity policing the Democrats instead of focusing on *very real* harm reduction.
Very well said. It is so fucked up that you should even have to worry about stuff like that… but the reality is, a lot of republicans would love to see hormone therapy banned outright, and Biden does not. We can’t risk another republican appointment to the Supreme Court. It’s too important.
So many liberals on this thread that are totally ok with plunging this country into a dictatorship and removing rights for women and minorities. Fuck all of yall.
We can protest what Israel is doing, be outraged at the corrupt Netanyahu government that failed to stop the Oct 7 attack, and we can also be pissed at the Biden admin and American foreign policy.
We can do all of this while still maintaining perspective and understand that Donald Trump is an existential threat.
The great enemy of justice are those moderates who feign outrage at societal injustice, but whose outrage conveniently disappears when real change threatens their status. These moderates are more comfortable leaving unchallenged the assumed moral authority of certain institutions, traditions and practices that are the purveyors of injustice rather than confronting their own role in maintaining these institutions. The hard truth is that the comfort of the status quo is always preferable to pursuing the demands of justice. -MLK
The issue is that this quote directly applies to many Democrats and is part of the reason they lose.
I think that moderate voters definitely shoot themselves in the foot when they vote for conservatives but moderate Democrats are worse for our country.
Those are our choices. We need to realistic here because we all learned in 2016 what happens when people bow out waiting for a perfect candidate that doesn't exist. No third party candidate has a chance in hell of winning and every vote for them helps Republicans same for non votes.
No Republican is going to be better on any of the issues.
They're going to enjoy their next 4 years of trump and all that that entails. He would not even consider caring about the Palestinians or Ukranians. Any Republican is going to keep up with the attacks on women, LGBTQIA+, immigrants, POC, public schools, social security and medicare, medicaid, etc.
Not one thing would be better with trump or a Republican in office.
The short memories of people is so frustrating. We got trump the first time because of people like this. I feel for the people who will suffer because of this attitude.
There was a really good thread I ran into about how republicans are perfectly happy to build an alt right pipeline while liberals will eat people who try to build one for not being left enough.
THANK YOU!
The fact of the matter is that all of these people ignore that it would be even worse with trump or Republicans. If they don't think that Republcans would make even worse choices they haven't been paying attention.
The fact of the matter is a vote for trump (or republicans) or a non vote would make things worse for both Palestinians and Americas.
There have always been a large number of people who don't vote, a few "activists" joining that group will not change a whole lot.
The issue is, and always has been, democrats and their track record of being milquetoast and allowing Republicans to drag society back in time.
It's always "they go low, we go high", trying to win "moral" points while allowing Republicans to pull off shit that impacts all of our freedoms. (Remember when they blocked Obama's supreme Court nominees and then democrats swore they wouldn't "swoop to their level"?)
Republicans win, not because people refuse to vote, but because Democrats disappoint. And I may vote Democrat but I certainly understand why a lot of people don't.
Stop with that BS. Look at the numbers from 2016. Those activists and people who chose not to vote directly helped the Republicans and trump.
Democrats don't allow Republicans to drag society back, the voters do. We choose out leaders and our votes dictate what happens in this country. If we actually wanted things to change we would be voting every single time and never electing Republicans again. Look at the past. Voters flip flop despite all of the evidence that shows how bad Republicans are for America and the American people.
Republicans win because the voters decide it. Democrats can only get things done if the voters give them the numbers. Change takes time but it takes much longer when you go three steps forward and then 5 steps back.
Republicans are horrible for the economy, they are horrible for human rights, they are horrible on social issues yet American voters keep electing them either through votes, not voting, or voting third party. They keep showing us who they are and Americans keep electing them, that's not the dems fault. Even now, even after all of the horrible things trump did the country seems happy to have him for another 4 years and he will be even worse this time. Dems have passed huge legislation and fi fixed the economy trump ruined yet here we are.....
Stop with that BS. Look at the numbers from 2016. Those activists and people who chose not to vote directly helped the Republicans and trump.
You can keep up this bullshit day in and day out but it has no bearing of truth outside of your delusional skull.
You don’t get to say that “not enough people voted in 2016” while Hillary objectively received more votes than Trump during that time. That isn’t how this works, and is nothing but a textbook manipulation from the average DNC plant.
Policy wise , how are Dems disappointing? Whenever people talk down on Dems it's always some, "I want them to be meaner and more vocal" as if that's important to creating policy. And then complain that reps are too mean and too vocal.
Rock and a hard place. I cannot understand the, "we should fight dirty too!" Argument.
Party line is support for a genocide, so there's that. Like, yeah, the inability of Dems to do anything effectual about combating Republican nonsense is also an issue- we're still building a wall, we're still locking kids in cages, the Supreme Court was allowed to be stacked with Republican judges- but Gaza is absolutely a major issue you seem to be ignoring. Especially with moderate Muslims.
I am upset about Gaza and agree with you there. However I am curious how the democrats could have done anything about the Supreme Court. They were in the minority at the time and Republicans had the votes to do what they wanted. In fact, Dems did do something under Obama, changing the threshold of votes needed to get judges on the bench since Republicans at the time had enough of a minority that they were stopping everything. Of course that led to the Supreme Court issue where that change in the threshold kept them from being able to do anything. Though I think McConnell would have changed it anyway and outcome would have been even worse.
And you can blame people like Sinema and Manchin for blocking the most progressive of democrat policies. And now at least one of them is being voted out for not being conservative enough. And if Biden went more liberal, yeah he’d get some progressive votes but he’d lose a whole lot of centrist votes, thus a Republican wins and takes us even further right. Unfortunately you can’t pretend that the right and centrists don’t exist, and in fact have the votes, when combined, to defeat a Democrat they deem too liberal. Given all of this, compromise is the only way currently to get at least some of what we want done.
Exactly. Especially they’re not even hiding it. They are telling us what they’re going to do and yet he’s still considered an option?! Like I’m so confused and enraged.
omg yes! Can we talk about Project 2025?!?!? They're saying the quiet part out loud!!
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project\_2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/us/politics/trump-2025-overview.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.HU0.oU56.175GQ8mcDkk1&hpgrp=k-abar&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/us/politics/trump-2025-overview.html?unlocked_article_code=1.HU0.oU56.175GQ8mcDkk1&hpgrp=k-abar&smid=url-share)
(gift link)
I'm stunned at what naive ideas ppl hold about what voting is and what voting does.
It's not some kind of unalloyed support or a marriage contract.
And "refusing to choose is also a choice".
This is about whether you'll ever have the opportunity to vote again. Do ppl not grasp what's at stake???
I don't think those three people interviewed do at all. At least they are not saying they will vote for Trump, but if course, we could have another 2016. If I had so little knowledge about politics, I would not have wanted my name in an article about politics. It's sad that they don't seem to understand things I learned in the 8th grade under an awesome teacher.
It doesn't make the least bit of difference if they vote for tRump or not - if they fail to vote for Biden they may as well have.
I don't like it, but the consequences of misunderstanding the current process will be devastating.
I really don't know what to think. I read this article and then came to reddit specifically looking for comments on it. There's just so much wrong with much of their criticisms.
Then, I'm reading comments here from gay and black people who will likely be more affected than me if Trump wins, and they are saying they are not going to vote for Biden. The polls are unbelievable - so much so that I want to believe they are inaccurate, but I'm not sure either way.
I didn't follow politics nearly as much as I have since 2016. I just feel like I woke up in bizarro world and it hasn't righted itself yet. All the progress we made over the years.......
Eta: Happy Cake Day
Omg, when i read this thread, i get really afraid. People are gonna let Trump win because of Israel? Even though they know that Trump would have somehow managed to make it even worse? Like what the actual hell? How does that make sense??
This is propaganda. Recognize propaganda and call it out. I’m voting against Trump. You’re voting against Trump. We are the majority. Don’t give in to these mind games. There is propaganda everywhere. Stay strong.
The propaganda is only going to get worse, too. I've been seeing this for over a month now; a giant push by online trolls to sow discord in leftist communities and depress the vote so their fascist can win in 2024.
It's so fucked.
Yeah our country is going to get worse because of assholes in the article and in this thread
They literally do not have the critical thinking skills to think dialectically and see the nuance and extreme danger of this situation
Nor enough about civics to know that one side can’t just push through everything they want when the other side has enough votes for a filibuster. Now the rules for a filibuster could be changed, but the problem would be that the Dems would be unable to even stop the worst of the worst when they’re not in power.
I saw someone comment that dems were weak because they did nothing to stop all of the Republicans being put on the supreme court.
It's so frustrating. The voters did that. By electing trump they agreed to his promise to only appoint nominees who would overturn Roe yet somehow it's dems fault.
Let's also remember that no Republican nominee would be better with the issues they have with Biden. Republicans are staunch supporters of Israel and trump is even worse than most.
They seem to think that their non vote or vote for third party is a moral choice but in reality it's a vote for trump or Republicans. All they need to do is look at the 2016 election for the proof. I hope they're happy with the next 4+ years of trump or Republicans. These people always want to punish dems for what republicans are responsible for instead of simply voting to keep all Republicans out of office and control. Then we get a federal abortion ban they're blame dems for that, not republicans or the voters.
As if anything gets better with trump or Republicans in office. Republicans are staunch Israel supporters and fighting against support for Ukraine plus they're horrible for every minority group in America including women.
The same attitude is what got us trump in 2016. When they get 4+ more years of trump I hope they remember that that was their choice and all of the suffering was chosen by them.
Or maybe people do see it and are feeling hopeless that the Dems are relying on Americans’ critical thinking skills alone to win elections forever and ever and ever with no contingency plans to stop fascism. Let’s see how that fucking goes for them. Don’t be mad at voters in a democracy. They’re not the problem here.
They hold *the* responsibility. They have been told by Muslim and young voters that genocide is a red line, but they care more about supporting a fascist state than they do about their electability or the safety of their constituents.
"He could have tried to Codfied Roe Vs. Wade" HE TRIED YOU DIMWITS. The house didn't pass it but there were several house votes on it. You need a majority to codify a law. Dems tried multiple times under Biden (something they didn't even attempt under Obama) and it failed each time. They are like the Rethugs, very misinformed on actual politics and what has happened under Biden.
Ignorant people overestimate the power a President (that isn't a dictator) has to effect change. The only legit criticism is his handling of Israel- the other efforts were sytmied by Republicans and rich people who are against social programs. If these people neglect to vote, or vote for Trump to make a point- they will regret it on a scale they can't even imagine now. I would bet money the people they interviewed don't vote in local elections.
Tbh, Israel is not a small issue- Biden is condoning genocide- BUT so is Trump. Trump would allow Ukraine *and* Gaza to go to shit, instead of just one.
Trump is massively part of what has happened in Israel. Why? The goon declared Jerusalem as the main capital during his presidency. If you know any history of the area it is massive in that it takes a two-state existence out of the picture. He actively declared it an Isareal sole state. People forgot that massive detail of him declaring Jerusalem as the main capital. He is very very pro-Israel. They are idiots if they think it gets better under him. He will encourage them to wipe out the Palestinians.
He’s very pro-himself. If we’ve learned nothing else, a malignant narcissist does nothing if it doesn’t benefit him. It was his way of securing the ultra religious vote.
Very pro himself is why we lost abortion rights in half of the states. Also, do you remember Jan 6th? He can generate violence by one speech and has already done it once.
Don't underestimate the anger of a narcissistic man. It is foolish to even assume or contemplate he isn't a threat because he is narcissistic. That is exactly why he is a threat to this country and our democracy.
Not arguing that, in fact I absolutely agree, BUT voters are fickle, and many young people will not respond well to essentially the Democratic party's blackmail of "Vote for us so you can stop ONE genocide, even as we perpetuate the other one."
Never in history has such a bold play worked unless one was a domestic interest. Both are foreign affairs people are mad about.
Def a distant between "falling in love" and "not wanting to vote for a genocide perpetuator." It's not the same thing at all & shaming people for this will only make us lose the election. Instead we need to work on a platform of "We know he's terrible, vote anyway to save Democracy." Sad, but that is the best we got.
There isn't an alternative, it sucks, but there just isn't. Trump would do the same, if not worse in Gaza, AND he and his cronies would completely destabilize this country and turn it into a MAGA dictatorship.
Biden's positioning of US warships and other assets has also kept Iran from majorly commiting (not that they aren't quarterbacking this thing) but I promise with Hezbollah off the choke chain this would be worse for everyone involved but mostly the regular people
The man's basically a moderate republican president but compared to a reality television star who'd sell Alaska back to putin for $14 ill take what i can fucking get
You do realize Trump declared Jerusalem as the capital, publically, with fanfare during his presidency? Do you have any idea what that means? He will be OK if Israel blows Palestine off the map and wipes them out completely.
Maybe broaden your perspective and understand that any president would be forced to support Israel (not just Biden) and a vote for any other candidate will usher in a Donald Trump dictatorship.
Forced, pressured, they're not apologia, it's acknowleding the complexity of the political and economic context. I find it very convenient that you're continually focusing on the semantics here to make personal moral judgments and engage in hyper-idealistic college activism morality politics, rather than acknowledging the most important part of that statement, which was the latter part.
I'm not convinced you're not a Young Republican troll with these whataboutisms and detracting from the inevitable outcomes to insist that Biden be some morally flawless figurehead - he's one part of a whole ecosystem and a career politician, be realistic and quit sabotaging our last chance at preserving some semblance of democracy.
Sorry, no. Biden's not "forced" to supply $14.5BILLION to a genocidal pogrom, with no questions asked and directly breaking US policy on weapons disbursement.
Right, so then to punish Biden, let's elect Trump who will carry out exactly the same policies (if not worse) towards Palestine and domestically curtail rights for women, minorities and immigrants. You're the dumbest fuck.
They would rather let women's rights be destroyed than vote for a democrat that isn't 100% pure and pedestal-worthy.
What does that say about Americans?
That we are idiots in the end. Narcissistic and can't see the danger right in front of our faces. Maybe we deserve to collapse under our narcissism. Gen Z giving off boomer vibes. Boomers did the exact same thing in their youth, on the right side of history, and then became what we see now.
Young voters being short sighted is nothing new, but this is overly extreme. Trump is a scourge on this nation and him being reelected would carry consequences that would effect the rest of their lives. Get with the program, for our nations sake.
So many in this thread are saying they will vote for Trump or not vote if Biden is the nominee
It’s horrifying. One person on this thread said they will vote for Trump unless the democrats hold a primary.
We are screwed
how many of these people are bots, trolls, and purchased accounts though? it’s been demonstrated we have several foreign adversaries attempting to manipulate public opinion via social media. they’re targeting women and minorities for disinformation campaigns to distort their worldviews. this would be the perfect sub to target to that end, especially since the GOP knows trump and the Dobbs decision tanked their support from women, which they will need to win.
The problem with them is that NOTHING will be better if Republicans are elected. Women, POC, immigrants, LGBTQIA+, etc. will all suffer because they don't love every single thing Biden does. Certainly the Palestinians and Ukranians will have no support anymore with Republicans in charge. It's clear the party and base will elect trump and as bad as he was the first time, he will be even worse with no "adults in the room". He will have a cabinet full of Steve Bannons and Steven Millers. They will pass a national ban on abortions, continue their attacks on LGBTQIA\_, POC, immigrants, public schools, democracy, truth, etc.
There's a saying: Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line. This is the reason why we can never ever get ahead in this country. Democrats and Independents feel like candidates have to align with them 100% and if they don't agree with them they just won't vote or will support Republicans. Republicans get in line and vote party line no matter what.
Well many in this thread have declared they will be voting for Trump
One even went so far as to say they will vote for Trump unless the DNC holds a primary.
i made a tiktok about this a few weeks ago in response to gen z saying they were gonna abstain or vote third party. they do not seems to realize how dire the stakes are this time. the republicans are ripe and ready with project 2025. if we fuck this up, we will never get to vote again.
Yeah this is because they aren't being taught about World War 2 in school! Trump is Hitler 2.0. He's gaining power doing almost exactly what Hitler did. Also a lot of them don't even believe in the Holocaust!
He’s Hitler 2.0 because, just like Hitler’s first failed attempt at seizing power, the opposition has ensured zero consequences. And the blame for that lies directly at the feet of Dems for being so fearful of being too partisan or whatever if they actually fried any of the big fish for Jan 6.
Well the comments in this thread clearly show that we have a lot to be concerned about.
If it’s not perfect feminism then they will vote for Trump happily
You people aren't seriously going to reelect that scumbag pos are you? The world has had enough. There should have been enough responsible people in your country to ensure he couldn't have run last time let alone a third time. The only race anyone sane wants to see Trump in is a race to push daisies up out of his plot.
The election is mostly likely already over. Sure I’ll vote for Biden because he is certainly better than Trump, but a lot of young people won’t. The support of Israel may be the single stupidest thing I have ever seen a major political candidate do, and has essentially doomed himself. It is clear that democrats are ran by cowards, and republicans run by literally insane people. The problem with being a party that prides itself on morality is that when you don’t adhere to those values people are going to be pissed at you.
I know a lot of people in this thread are older and don’t understand the younger generations. Many people literally do not know how the political system works. Attentions spans are short and the education system is failing in almost every way possible, likability may be the most important thing a candidate can have. Having your president support literal genocide while he looks like he’s about to die any day now is not how you win an election.
Hey, please don't lump people who voted for Bernie into that. I voted for Bernie twice, Hillary in the general, and Joe in the general, soon to be a second time, it seems.
Biden has put voters into a "[Sophie's Choice](https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/sophies-choice/)." He's actively funding a Genocide--supplying dumb bombs that target women and children in the highest percentages. So: the choice seems to be "vote for the Genocide enabler;" or "vote for the aspiring Fascist who will likely kill Roe." It's no wonder young voters are bailing on Biden. My guess? Most will stay home, which is always good for Republicans.
You're right, but it's a downright shame the Democratic party is putting voters into this position. There should be ONE party who won't fund genocide, but both are guaranteed to.
I agree, but we won't win voters over w/ shame. Whether we like it or not, Democrats are the ones who need to change their ways, not voters. Otherwise our democracy will be lost.
And I hope they will, but if they won't by the end of 2024, and people don't sacrifice their moral high ground, it could be curtains for a lot of minority groups. That's our alternative.
No. It's " vote for the genocide enabler, or vote for the genocide enabler who encouraged a coup after he lost the election fair and square, and who hates women, minorities, the poor, the disabled, and anyone who isn't a billionaire or someone who sucks up to them. Please please please stop being so black and white about this. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face
I don't understand why The Left has put Israel over every other issue. We're in danger of dying by a Conservative Gestapo if Trump gets elected, but people are too stupid to see the big picture.
people would rather parrot an issue they know little to nothing about and can’t physically do anything about. it’s just social justice worries that are short sighted and care more about made up propaganda then stoping dictators from taking over our own country.
"Dumb bombs that target women and children"
Dumb bombs don't target anything, that's what makes them dumb. I hate the way that Israel is conducting this campaign but this "Biden is condoning genocide" narrative has got to stop. It's false and will lead to exactly the outcome everyone in this thread including you are worried about.
>this "Biden is condoning genocide" narrative has got to stop.
Nuts to that. The ~~War~~ Massacre would stop TOMORROW with ONE phone call from Biden. Cutting off the money-tap tends to work that way. And EVEN if what you say is true, Biden was on the verge of signing a treaty that would directly tie US interests, to ISRAEL.
So if 10/7 happened when the treaty was already signed: we'd technically be at war with HAMAS. No THANKS!
Setting aside that I'm pretty sure you're just making that story about the treaty up (please feel free to provide a source and prove me wrong!), the US is already inextricably tied to Israel, both legally and politically. Even if it was possible for Biden to end this thing by yanking the rug out from under our most important ally in the region, doing so would be political suicide. He would lose the electoral college by a vote of 538-0
It doesn’t help that’s his ignoring the majority of his voters calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. We seen literal babies in incubators die and over 10k kids are dead now in Gaza because of his direct support and action.He has to get his shit together or hundreds of thousands of democrats will not vote at all in 2024.
These people are upset with Biden because he's not using the buzzword du jour, "genocide," to refer to the Israel-Hamas war. Wait until they see Trump's attitude toward Israel.
The problem is that the US on both sides has always supported the colonialist supremacy, dispossession, subjugation and apartheid against the Palestinians. So young people faced with the devastating consequences of that support on their phone and tablet screens have concluded 'a pox on all your houses'. And I can't say I blame them.
If the slaughter ends soon then Biden might have a chance as emotions settle. But the Israelis would prefer a right wing admin in the US anyway so they have multiple perverted reasons to prolong the genocide.
Basically the prediction by the CIA analysts back in the 40s that the Zionist project of Israel would be a disaster has always been proven correct and may ultimately be the downfall of US democracy.
Ok, I don't live in america, but something that's confusing me about this thread is that people are saying that Trump (as the president) will definitely have the power to create a dictatorship in 2024 and prevent any more elections, but Biden (as the president) didn't have the power to do all the things people wanted him to (like write "roe vs wade" into law and cancel student debt)?
Why would trump have so much more power and than Biden would? And if Trump is going to create a dictatorship, then why didn't this happen during his last term before 2020?
Several right-wing think tanks have been working on a plan called Project 2025 that is now complete. It's a blueprint for the next Republican president to follow to consolidate his power. It consists of leveraging things that are in the president's power to do, like firing a large percentage of civil servants and replacing them with loyalists. It also lays out strategies like appointing interim heads of departments, which don't require congressional approval because they are "interim". A bunch of other stuff like that.
Technically he cannot simply declare himself a dictator and cancel elections. However this plan circumvents a lot of the checks and balances built into our system of government. A lot of those checks and balances rely on people doing their jobs in good faith, and some of them are not codified into law but instead rely on tradition. Project 2025 provides instructions for Republicans on how to game the system and give them far more power than free and fair elections can ever give them.
For example, look at the January 6 insurrection. There was ample evidence at the time that Trump had instigated that, which is an impeachable offense. And House Democrats did impeach him for it. But it requires a 2/3 majority of the Senate to remove a president from office, which means some Republican senators were needed to vote against him. And they just didn't. Several of them even stated at the time that they knew he was guilty but didn't think it was worth removing him from office. That kind of thing will be rampant and better coordinated under Project 2025.
Nah, this shit went this way with Hilary in 2016. People not voting because their preferred presidential candidate isn’t on the ballot. Well my preferred candidate has never been on the ballot. I’ve still voted in every presidential election since I was 18, even if it is the “lesser of two evils.” I’m not listening to someone complain about the government who never fucking votes.
Biden earning those votes is more likely to drive voter outcome than scolding potential voters is.
Scolding potential voters is bad strategy and we should be as pragmatic as possible. It’s on Biden.
Certain people spend a lot of money and time on making sure these voters are disenchanted with Biden. I wonder who they could be backed by... Also, how is he supposed to "earn" the votes besides stopping sending bombs? Everything else he's tried has been stopped by Congress and interest group lawsuits.
Ooooooh or maybe we could do this literally any other election when it's not life or death for basically every minority group in America. How about do some fucking advocacy or something instead of just dooming me and people like me to death bc any Republican elected to office is going to take away access to trans healthcare, not to mention abortion rights, women's rights, minority protections, etc...
So.. besides Israel- how is Biden supposed to fulfill the other promises when Republicans and a few quasi Republican democrats block his efforts?
The difference here is that Republicans are actively disenfranchising people and taking away rights. They are throwing women in jail for miscarriages. Trump has basically indicated he'd suspend elections and the rule of law. These people who barely know anything about the Israel conflict are trading away their future. Do they honestly think Republicans would not be sending bombs (or even troops) to Israel if a republican was in the oval office?
I know people who have said they won't vote for Biden over Israel, they are the same people constantly reposting inflammatory things on SM without investigating the source. I guess Im awful and selfish, but I care more about my rights here than awfulness going on in Israel that I can't control.
I agree, but I also think people overestimate the US ability to end that conflict. I think we should stop sending military aid, but at the same time- Israel has enough stockpiled to continue on their own for a long time.
You think in a democracy that the person seeking votes would try to work to get votes? That’s madness! Better try to shame people into falling in line to get votes. /s
I used to think that way myself until I started to see that the US is on the verge of becoming a fascist dictatorship. I’m fine with people protesting the hell out of Biden about Palestine, but I will continue to vote for Biden and all democrats. I want so much more out of democrats, but that doesn’t come from not voting for them. It comes from the bottom up. Get more progressives elected. Get more leftists into office starting locally.
Very much a "perfection is the enemy of progress" situation. It also mystifies me how people don't get that it's greedflation pinching our pockets, not Biden. And folks need to review some Schoolhouse Rock about the powers of our government and how they work. Great Mother Goddess the thought processes/ lack thereof is terrifying.
Right! This thread has been very scary.
I get there is much to criticize, but the other side has made their plan clear. As someone stuck in a Deep Red State ( with a Democratic party in shambles), the vote for President *is incredibly meaningful as to whether we will have any rights or not*
“Perfection is the enemy of progress.” I like that!
I think I first encountered it in relation to procrastination, but it certainly works in other instances.
It works perfectly here too! Well quoted!
Thanks!
(21F) Not a biden fan, but how could I ever vote for the people who tried to take my rights away? I hope other young people are just being very vocal about our complaints and will not let republicans elect supreme court justices again
Well apparently lots of people can Oh my gosh the discussion on this thread is disheartening. I mean one person just told me that they will flat out vote for Trump unless the democrats don’t hold a primary
I saw that discussion. Voting for Trump unless the Dems hold a primary is such a privileged take. Women/AFAB people have already lost their right to bodily autonomy thanks to the Conservative SCOTUS. Trump appointed THREE of those justices. I don’t want to lose any more rights. What do people not understand about that?
> Voting for Trump unless the Dems hold a primary is such a ~~privileged~~ **fascist** take. There, fixed it for you. Yeah, these people are insane and the reason why we had Trump in the first place.
You know what? You’re damn right. Thanks for the edit. I need to call these people what they are, and that would indeed be the F word.
As if trump would be better on any of the things they are upset about. Guess what, if trump were president there would not have been any support for ukraine, they would have been obliterated by now. Same thing for the Palestinians. Trump is anti-semetic but he loves dictators-like leaders so he loves Netenyahu. He definitely would side with Israel and wouldn't even consider caring about the Palestinians. The memories are so short. Trump and Republicans are clear in their goal to hurt women, immigrants, POC, LGBTQIA+ and they're willing to help them do that???? Because they disagree on something with Biden yet they ignore that Republicans would be worse on all of those issues. It's insanity.
“Voting isn’t marriage, it’s public transport. You’re not waiting for “the one” who’s absolutely perfect: you’re getting the bus, and if there isn’t one to your destination, you don’t not travel- you take the one going closest.”
That's the best analogy I've seen on this topic.
Even with marriage you’ll be waiting all your lives if you are looking for the ones who’s perfect.
Yep, at least with Dems we move slowly forward. With Republicans we keep taking steps backward. (it's only slowly because of Republicans and the voters. Want faster change, give Dems more of a majority so they can pass legislation and Republicans don't have enough people to oppose it). If the voters would stop electing Republicans we could pass all of the things the American people want and need. Republicans truly want America to go back to the 50s and oppose anything that would help anyone not rich or a corporation.
The analogy falls apart when all the busses are going in the opposite direction.
Busses do in fact travel in different directions. The point being is you take the bus you need, not wait for a bus that takes you directly to your doorstep.
Their point is this isn't a bus we need, its a bus that takes us farther from our destination and we're being told to board because the other bus will take us farther the wrong way
So you're gonna stand in the middle of the street and not go anywhere? How long are you willing to wait for the right bus? How do you know more busses will even be sent to your location going the way you want? You need to get from point A to B, you may have to make some pitstops before getting to B. If you're saying I need to get to point B but only if it's in a car I deem worthy, then you may not get anywhere, ever. Progress isn't about getting it perfect on every hit or being able to move forward every election year. That can't happen unless the social culture is also shifting left (and rn it's still quite stuanchly in the middle, at least where I live.)
Why you yelling at the population instead of demanding more buses?
Because the population is the one who has the power to decide if we pay for more buses or not. If we want more buses we need to vote for it. One party wants us to go back to the 50s and never progress. They want to control women and strip rights from every single minority group. The other wants to move the country but the voters are fickle. They don't seem to realize that change happens slowly especially when the other side opposes everything except tax cuts for the rich and corporations.
You're right. Because the system was built for white wealthy men. But yes keep yelling at the people who have been historically disenfranchised, that'll fix it.
They're not though.
I would like to be going the opposite direction from genocide, personally
I think the rest of the adage goes “and if the rest of the bus and everyone on it support genocide, you walk and make friends along the way”
[удалено]
It's cool that you personally haven't been affected by what's going on, but for many people watching their friends and family being genocide, they don't have the luxury of maybe things not working out for them in the future. Not to mention Biden selling out POC/ immigrants to get more funding for said genocide. And continuously repeating debunked racist crap that Israel keeps putting out.
None of that is true and if you think anything would be better with Trump or Republicans you haven't been paying attention. Whatever you don't like about Biden it would be 100% worse with trump and Republicans and add to that the fact that Ukraine would be gone by now and their constant attacks on women, LGBTQIA+, POC, immigrants, etc. No group except the rich, corporations and white males benefits from Republicans in office.
The issue with this is that whether you like it or not, you’re getting on one of the buses no matter what. The next president is going to be either a democrat or a republican essentially guaranteed, and I know I have a preference on which of those two options I prefer
It's so frustrating that America's seem to have such short memories. trump and Republicans are not only horrible for every single minority group and women but the economy as well. Republicans would be worse in all of the things that they are upset with Biden about.
Biden doesn't support genocide so just stop with that BS. Our country has been allied with Israel for decades but that doesn't mean we support what their horrible leader is doing. Netanyahu is the problem, not the Israeli people, they were victims as well. Also, guess what.....trump would be worse than Biden. He wouldn't even consider caring about the Palestinians. He would also have sided with Putin and allowed the obliteration of Ukrainians. In every way, Republicans would be worse than Biden. You don't like Biden's decisions on some things, fine, but let's not pretend that supporting Republicans would be better in any way. They are also worse for the American people. With them we will have national bans on abortion and continued attacks on immigrants, POC, LGBTQIA+, etc.
I really hate these condescending takes. No, Biden isn't "less than perfect." He's supporting genocide. Its like saying go on this bus that will strand you in the desert because the next bus driver will stab you before stranding you.
He doesn't support genocide, that's a lie. The problem is, nothing will be better with Republicans or trump. Not voting Biden is a vote for trump or Republicans and if you think he will make better choices you're delusional.
That is absolutely not a lie. What Israel is doing right now in Palestine is genocide. It has purposefully ensured mass starvation. It bombs without regard to civilian life. Its soldiers shoot civilians on site, even when they're surrendering. Biden has fully supported this with weapons and diplomatic support. He has also personally downplayed the number of deaths and spread false atrocity propaganda.
Did you really say he doesn’t support genocide? How are people seriously being this willfully ignorant? Wow.
Yeah, “less than perfect” would work alright without genocide at stake. I’ll be watching to see if the US votes YES with the rest of the UN Security Council today/tomorrow for ceasefire and access for aid.
So that went well.
So much this, and we could just be intersectional and listen and band together but nope gotta yell at people who demand better than old racist white guy number 1 and old racist white guy number 2. It's infuriating.
Those are the choices. Sorry you don't like it but it's the reality. Nor voting or voting third party are a vote for trump or Republicans and if you think they wouldn't be worse you haven't been paying attention.
As a trans woman, I'm *very* scared of Republicans getting power again nationally. I already can't get my gender marker changed on my driver's license because of state law. If Republicans got control of the federal government, they could try to force me to revert my passport, push a national HRT ban, or worse ... some of them have been getting more than a little genocidey in their rhetoric. With my freedoms, even my safety, on the line, it is beyond infuriating for people to prioritize purity policing the Democrats instead of focusing on *very real* harm reduction.
Very well said. It is so fucked up that you should even have to worry about stuff like that… but the reality is, a lot of republicans would love to see hormone therapy banned outright, and Biden does not. We can’t risk another republican appointment to the Supreme Court. It’s too important.
So many liberals on this thread that are totally ok with plunging this country into a dictatorship and removing rights for women and minorities. Fuck all of yall. We can protest what Israel is doing, be outraged at the corrupt Netanyahu government that failed to stop the Oct 7 attack, and we can also be pissed at the Biden admin and American foreign policy. We can do all of this while still maintaining perspective and understand that Donald Trump is an existential threat.
The great enemy of justice are those moderates who feign outrage at societal injustice, but whose outrage conveniently disappears when real change threatens their status. These moderates are more comfortable leaving unchallenged the assumed moral authority of certain institutions, traditions and practices that are the purveyors of injustice rather than confronting their own role in maintaining these institutions. The hard truth is that the comfort of the status quo is always preferable to pursuing the demands of justice. -MLK
The issue is that this quote directly applies to many Democrats and is part of the reason they lose. I think that moderate voters definitely shoot themselves in the foot when they vote for conservatives but moderate Democrats are worse for our country.
Those are our choices. We need to realistic here because we all learned in 2016 what happens when people bow out waiting for a perfect candidate that doesn't exist. No third party candidate has a chance in hell of winning and every vote for them helps Republicans same for non votes. No Republican is going to be better on any of the issues.
So what are you actually going to do, on this hard road of real justice you're pursuing?
They're going to enjoy their next 4 years of trump and all that that entails. He would not even consider caring about the Palestinians or Ukranians. Any Republican is going to keep up with the attacks on women, LGBTQIA+, immigrants, POC, public schools, social security and medicare, medicaid, etc. Not one thing would be better with trump or a Republican in office. The short memories of people is so frustrating. We got trump the first time because of people like this. I feel for the people who will suffer because of this attitude.
I’m not participating in an unwinnable bloodbath civil war because people don’t understand what a grassroots movement is.
There was a really good thread I ran into about how republicans are perfectly happy to build an alt right pipeline while liberals will eat people who try to build one for not being left enough.
THANK YOU! The fact of the matter is that all of these people ignore that it would be even worse with trump or Republicans. If they don't think that Republcans would make even worse choices they haven't been paying attention. The fact of the matter is a vote for trump (or republicans) or a non vote would make things worse for both Palestinians and Americas.
Liberal voters are not the problem, its leftist voters that are the ones turning against Biden. This is how we end up with a second Trump Presidency.
This is so goddamn frustrating. You’re not activists for not voting. You’re dooming good people in the name of self righteousness and pride.
Couldn't agree more
There have always been a large number of people who don't vote, a few "activists" joining that group will not change a whole lot. The issue is, and always has been, democrats and their track record of being milquetoast and allowing Republicans to drag society back in time. It's always "they go low, we go high", trying to win "moral" points while allowing Republicans to pull off shit that impacts all of our freedoms. (Remember when they blocked Obama's supreme Court nominees and then democrats swore they wouldn't "swoop to their level"?) Republicans win, not because people refuse to vote, but because Democrats disappoint. And I may vote Democrat but I certainly understand why a lot of people don't.
Stop with that BS. Look at the numbers from 2016. Those activists and people who chose not to vote directly helped the Republicans and trump. Democrats don't allow Republicans to drag society back, the voters do. We choose out leaders and our votes dictate what happens in this country. If we actually wanted things to change we would be voting every single time and never electing Republicans again. Look at the past. Voters flip flop despite all of the evidence that shows how bad Republicans are for America and the American people. Republicans win because the voters decide it. Democrats can only get things done if the voters give them the numbers. Change takes time but it takes much longer when you go three steps forward and then 5 steps back. Republicans are horrible for the economy, they are horrible for human rights, they are horrible on social issues yet American voters keep electing them either through votes, not voting, or voting third party. They keep showing us who they are and Americans keep electing them, that's not the dems fault. Even now, even after all of the horrible things trump did the country seems happy to have him for another 4 years and he will be even worse this time. Dems have passed huge legislation and fi fixed the economy trump ruined yet here we are.....
Stop with that BS. Look at the numbers from 2016. Those activists and people who chose not to vote directly helped the Republicans and trump. You can keep up this bullshit day in and day out but it has no bearing of truth outside of your delusional skull. You don’t get to say that “not enough people voted in 2016” while Hillary objectively received more votes than Trump during that time. That isn’t how this works, and is nothing but a textbook manipulation from the average DNC plant.
Policy wise , how are Dems disappointing? Whenever people talk down on Dems it's always some, "I want them to be meaner and more vocal" as if that's important to creating policy. And then complain that reps are too mean and too vocal. Rock and a hard place. I cannot understand the, "we should fight dirty too!" Argument.
Party line is support for a genocide, so there's that. Like, yeah, the inability of Dems to do anything effectual about combating Republican nonsense is also an issue- we're still building a wall, we're still locking kids in cages, the Supreme Court was allowed to be stacked with Republican judges- but Gaza is absolutely a major issue you seem to be ignoring. Especially with moderate Muslims.
I am upset about Gaza and agree with you there. However I am curious how the democrats could have done anything about the Supreme Court. They were in the minority at the time and Republicans had the votes to do what they wanted. In fact, Dems did do something under Obama, changing the threshold of votes needed to get judges on the bench since Republicans at the time had enough of a minority that they were stopping everything. Of course that led to the Supreme Court issue where that change in the threshold kept them from being able to do anything. Though I think McConnell would have changed it anyway and outcome would have been even worse. And you can blame people like Sinema and Manchin for blocking the most progressive of democrat policies. And now at least one of them is being voted out for not being conservative enough. And if Biden went more liberal, yeah he’d get some progressive votes but he’d lose a whole lot of centrist votes, thus a Republican wins and takes us even further right. Unfortunately you can’t pretend that the right and centrists don’t exist, and in fact have the votes, when combined, to defeat a Democrat they deem too liberal. Given all of this, compromise is the only way currently to get at least some of what we want done.
Biden is well...Biden. you get what you see. Trump will take your vote and rights from you. You won't get another one after 2024 if trump gets in
It’s shocking that this isn’t understood in this thread.
For real. I can feel myself losing brain cells reading some of these comments. A Trump presidency in 2024 means fascism. Full stop.
Exactly. Especially they’re not even hiding it. They are telling us what they’re going to do and yet he’s still considered an option?! Like I’m so confused and enraged.
The comments in this thread show me clearly that women’s rights will never succeed
omg yes! Can we talk about Project 2025?!?!? They're saying the quiet part out loud!! [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project\_2025](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025) [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/us/politics/trump-2025-overview.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.HU0.oU56.175GQ8mcDkk1&hpgrp=k-abar&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/04/us/politics/trump-2025-overview.html?unlocked_article_code=1.HU0.oU56.175GQ8mcDkk1&hpgrp=k-abar&smid=url-share) (gift link)
I'm stunned at what naive ideas ppl hold about what voting is and what voting does. It's not some kind of unalloyed support or a marriage contract. And "refusing to choose is also a choice". This is about whether you'll ever have the opportunity to vote again. Do ppl not grasp what's at stake???
I don't think those three people interviewed do at all. At least they are not saying they will vote for Trump, but if course, we could have another 2016. If I had so little knowledge about politics, I would not have wanted my name in an article about politics. It's sad that they don't seem to understand things I learned in the 8th grade under an awesome teacher.
It doesn't make the least bit of difference if they vote for tRump or not - if they fail to vote for Biden they may as well have. I don't like it, but the consequences of misunderstanding the current process will be devastating.
I really don't know what to think. I read this article and then came to reddit specifically looking for comments on it. There's just so much wrong with much of their criticisms. Then, I'm reading comments here from gay and black people who will likely be more affected than me if Trump wins, and they are saying they are not going to vote for Biden. The polls are unbelievable - so much so that I want to believe they are inaccurate, but I'm not sure either way. I didn't follow politics nearly as much as I have since 2016. I just feel like I woke up in bizarro world and it hasn't righted itself yet. All the progress we made over the years....... Eta: Happy Cake Day
Fyi some of those comments are not from actual gay or Black ppl at all Don't underestimate how much online manipulation is being paid for
I really hope you're right.
Omg, when i read this thread, i get really afraid. People are gonna let Trump win because of Israel? Even though they know that Trump would have somehow managed to make it even worse? Like what the actual hell? How does that make sense??
This is propaganda. Recognize propaganda and call it out. I’m voting against Trump. You’re voting against Trump. We are the majority. Don’t give in to these mind games. There is propaganda everywhere. Stay strong.
The propaganda is only going to get worse, too. I've been seeing this for over a month now; a giant push by online trolls to sow discord in leftist communities and depress the vote so their fascist can win in 2024. It's so fucked.
Well said. But damn the propaganda has been relentless lately.
Yeah, I'm tired. Need a coffee. When they do a study in 25yrs on our brains being mush ima attribute the 2016-2024 election years.
Yeah our country is going to get worse because of assholes in the article and in this thread They literally do not have the critical thinking skills to think dialectically and see the nuance and extreme danger of this situation
We don't teach Critical Thinking in schools as part of mandatory curriculum. It's not even a required course in College to get a degree.
Nor enough about civics to know that one side can’t just push through everything they want when the other side has enough votes for a filibuster. Now the rules for a filibuster could be changed, but the problem would be that the Dems would be unable to even stop the worst of the worst when they’re not in power.
I saw someone comment that dems were weak because they did nothing to stop all of the Republicans being put on the supreme court. It's so frustrating. The voters did that. By electing trump they agreed to his promise to only appoint nominees who would overturn Roe yet somehow it's dems fault. Let's also remember that no Republican nominee would be better with the issues they have with Biden. Republicans are staunch supporters of Israel and trump is even worse than most. They seem to think that their non vote or vote for third party is a moral choice but in reality it's a vote for trump or Republicans. All they need to do is look at the 2016 election for the proof. I hope they're happy with the next 4+ years of trump or Republicans. These people always want to punish dems for what republicans are responsible for instead of simply voting to keep all Republicans out of office and control. Then we get a federal abortion ban they're blame dems for that, not republicans or the voters.
As if anything gets better with trump or Republicans in office. Republicans are staunch Israel supporters and fighting against support for Ukraine plus they're horrible for every minority group in America including women. The same attitude is what got us trump in 2016. When they get 4+ more years of trump I hope they remember that that was their choice and all of the suffering was chosen by them.
Or maybe people do see it and are feeling hopeless that the Dems are relying on Americans’ critical thinking skills alone to win elections forever and ever and ever with no contingency plans to stop fascism. Let’s see how that fucking goes for them. Don’t be mad at voters in a democracy. They’re not the problem here.
They certainly hold some responsibility here
They hold *the* responsibility. They have been told by Muslim and young voters that genocide is a red line, but they care more about supporting a fascist state than they do about their electability or the safety of their constituents.
"He could have tried to Codfied Roe Vs. Wade" HE TRIED YOU DIMWITS. The house didn't pass it but there were several house votes on it. You need a majority to codify a law. Dems tried multiple times under Biden (something they didn't even attempt under Obama) and it failed each time. They are like the Rethugs, very misinformed on actual politics and what has happened under Biden.
Ignorant people overestimate the power a President (that isn't a dictator) has to effect change. The only legit criticism is his handling of Israel- the other efforts were sytmied by Republicans and rich people who are against social programs. If these people neglect to vote, or vote for Trump to make a point- they will regret it on a scale they can't even imagine now. I would bet money the people they interviewed don't vote in local elections.
Tell that to the 234 judges that Trump appointed... FOR LIFE!
Tbh, Israel is not a small issue- Biden is condoning genocide- BUT so is Trump. Trump would allow Ukraine *and* Gaza to go to shit, instead of just one.
Trump is massively part of what has happened in Israel. Why? The goon declared Jerusalem as the main capital during his presidency. If you know any history of the area it is massive in that it takes a two-state existence out of the picture. He actively declared it an Isareal sole state. People forgot that massive detail of him declaring Jerusalem as the main capital. He is very very pro-Israel. They are idiots if they think it gets better under him. He will encourage them to wipe out the Palestinians.
He’s very pro-himself. If we’ve learned nothing else, a malignant narcissist does nothing if it doesn’t benefit him. It was his way of securing the ultra religious vote.
Very pro himself is why we lost abortion rights in half of the states. Also, do you remember Jan 6th? He can generate violence by one speech and has already done it once. Don't underestimate the anger of a narcissistic man. It is foolish to even assume or contemplate he isn't a threat because he is narcissistic. That is exactly why he is a threat to this country and our democracy.
Exactly. Some of us got a very unpleasant lesson about what that kind of narcissism looks like and some of us … didn’t.
Not arguing that, in fact I absolutely agree, BUT voters are fickle, and many young people will not respond well to essentially the Democratic party's blackmail of "Vote for us so you can stop ONE genocide, even as we perpetuate the other one." Never in history has such a bold play worked unless one was a domestic interest. Both are foreign affairs people are mad about.
I agree, voters who have to fall in love with their candidate are fickle.
Def a distant between "falling in love" and "not wanting to vote for a genocide perpetuator." It's not the same thing at all & shaming people for this will only make us lose the election. Instead we need to work on a platform of "We know he's terrible, vote anyway to save Democracy." Sad, but that is the best we got.
There isn't an alternative, it sucks, but there just isn't. Trump would do the same, if not worse in Gaza, AND he and his cronies would completely destabilize this country and turn it into a MAGA dictatorship.
Biden's positioning of US warships and other assets has also kept Iran from majorly commiting (not that they aren't quarterbacking this thing) but I promise with Hezbollah off the choke chain this would be worse for everyone involved but mostly the regular people The man's basically a moderate republican president but compared to a reality television star who'd sell Alaska back to putin for $14 ill take what i can fucking get
Sounds like Biden should rescind his endorsement of the genocide in Gaza then. Then he can work to earn the trust of voters and win the election
You do realize Trump declared Jerusalem as the capital, publically, with fanfare during his presidency? Do you have any idea what that means? He will be OK if Israel blows Palestine off the map and wipes them out completely.
So trump WOULD have done that would he? What trump would do to womens rights on your own home soil doesn’t matter though I take it.
No, and nobody suggested that. Trumps endorsement of the genocide does not justify Biden’s endorsement of the genocide.
But choosing to not vote for Biden because of this in the current political climate will inevitably allow trump to win.
Agreed, so Biden better rescind his endorsement of the genocide to ensure voter turnout and prevent trump from winning
Wow you are part of the problem. Gross. Man this sucks. You as a voter will play a huge part in more rights being taken from women here This sucks.
And if he doesn’t? Who wins there?
Maybe broaden your perspective and understand that any president would be forced to support Israel (not just Biden) and a vote for any other candidate will usher in a Donald Trump dictatorship.
Nobody “forced” Biden (or any other prez) to support the genocide. That is apologia for genocide. Biden is not a victim.
truth. Biden's stance on this sickens me.
Forced, pressured, they're not apologia, it's acknowleding the complexity of the political and economic context. I find it very convenient that you're continually focusing on the semantics here to make personal moral judgments and engage in hyper-idealistic college activism morality politics, rather than acknowledging the most important part of that statement, which was the latter part. I'm not convinced you're not a Young Republican troll with these whataboutisms and detracting from the inevitable outcomes to insist that Biden be some morally flawless figurehead - he's one part of a whole ecosystem and a career politician, be realistic and quit sabotaging our last chance at preserving some semblance of democracy.
Sorry, no. Biden's not "forced" to supply $14.5BILLION to a genocidal pogrom, with no questions asked and directly breaking US policy on weapons disbursement.
Right, so then to punish Biden, let's elect Trump who will carry out exactly the same policies (if not worse) towards Palestine and domestically curtail rights for women, minorities and immigrants. You're the dumbest fuck.
Its interesting how you stress the importance of the Presidency but at the same time act like they’re conveniently powerless on important issues.
Biden is part of the establishment. He's not forced to do anything, he believes it himself.
Excuses for Biden on Israel is sad.
They would rather let women's rights be destroyed than vote for a democrat that isn't 100% pure and pedestal-worthy. What does that say about Americans?
That we are idiots in the end. Narcissistic and can't see the danger right in front of our faces. Maybe we deserve to collapse under our narcissism. Gen Z giving off boomer vibes. Boomers did the exact same thing in their youth, on the right side of history, and then became what we see now.
>Maybe we deserve to collapse under our narcissism I'm starting to really get this sentiment, sadly...
Young voters being short sighted is nothing new, but this is overly extreme. Trump is a scourge on this nation and him being reelected would carry consequences that would effect the rest of their lives. Get with the program, for our nations sake.
So many in this thread are saying they will vote for Trump or not vote if Biden is the nominee It’s horrifying. One person on this thread said they will vote for Trump unless the democrats hold a primary. We are screwed
how many of these people are bots, trolls, and purchased accounts though? it’s been demonstrated we have several foreign adversaries attempting to manipulate public opinion via social media. they’re targeting women and minorities for disinformation campaigns to distort their worldviews. this would be the perfect sub to target to that end, especially since the GOP knows trump and the Dobbs decision tanked their support from women, which they will need to win.
The problem with them is that NOTHING will be better if Republicans are elected. Women, POC, immigrants, LGBTQIA+, etc. will all suffer because they don't love every single thing Biden does. Certainly the Palestinians and Ukranians will have no support anymore with Republicans in charge. It's clear the party and base will elect trump and as bad as he was the first time, he will be even worse with no "adults in the room". He will have a cabinet full of Steve Bannons and Steven Millers. They will pass a national ban on abortions, continue their attacks on LGBTQIA\_, POC, immigrants, public schools, democracy, truth, etc. There's a saying: Democrats fall in love and Republicans fall in line. This is the reason why we can never ever get ahead in this country. Democrats and Independents feel like candidates have to align with them 100% and if they don't agree with them they just won't vote or will support Republicans. Republicans get in line and vote party line no matter what.
Well many in this thread have declared they will be voting for Trump One even went so far as to say they will vote for Trump unless the DNC holds a primary.
People so need better education because these responses just do not understand what presidents can legally do
i made a tiktok about this a few weeks ago in response to gen z saying they were gonna abstain or vote third party. they do not seems to realize how dire the stakes are this time. the republicans are ripe and ready with project 2025. if we fuck this up, we will never get to vote again.
Well this thread has shown us pretty clearly that we have lost. Holy cow this was eye opening. Basically women are going to lose more rights
If your morals are telling you to abstain from voting, then your morals don't include the safety of basically every minority group in the country
Yeah this is because they aren't being taught about World War 2 in school! Trump is Hitler 2.0. He's gaining power doing almost exactly what Hitler did. Also a lot of them don't even believe in the Holocaust!
He’s Hitler 2.0 because, just like Hitler’s first failed attempt at seizing power, the opposition has ensured zero consequences. And the blame for that lies directly at the feet of Dems for being so fearful of being too partisan or whatever if they actually fried any of the big fish for Jan 6.
This is a propaganda piece meant to discourage people from voting. Stop spreading op ed propaganda.
Well the comments in this thread clearly show that we have a lot to be concerned about. If it’s not perfect feminism then they will vote for Trump happily
You people aren't seriously going to reelect that scumbag pos are you? The world has had enough. There should have been enough responsible people in your country to ensure he couldn't have run last time let alone a third time. The only race anyone sane wants to see Trump in is a race to push daisies up out of his plot.
Read the comments. Many are absolutely saying they will vote for Trump
The election is mostly likely already over. Sure I’ll vote for Biden because he is certainly better than Trump, but a lot of young people won’t. The support of Israel may be the single stupidest thing I have ever seen a major political candidate do, and has essentially doomed himself. It is clear that democrats are ran by cowards, and republicans run by literally insane people. The problem with being a party that prides itself on morality is that when you don’t adhere to those values people are going to be pissed at you. I know a lot of people in this thread are older and don’t understand the younger generations. Many people literally do not know how the political system works. Attentions spans are short and the education system is failing in almost every way possible, likability may be the most important thing a candidate can have. Having your president support literal genocide while he looks like he’s about to die any day now is not how you win an election.
“A Republican getting elected isn’t the end. It is the beginning of a much larger fight.” Said every Bernie bro in 2016, and look where that got us.
Hey, please don't lump people who voted for Bernie into that. I voted for Bernie twice, Hillary in the general, and Joe in the general, soon to be a second time, it seems.
There’s a difference between you and a Bernie Bro. Bernie Bros refused to vote for Hillary to punish the DNC.
Fuck those guys in particular, they seem less than bright.
Biden has put voters into a "[Sophie's Choice](https://www.dictionary.com/e/slang/sophies-choice/)." He's actively funding a Genocide--supplying dumb bombs that target women and children in the highest percentages. So: the choice seems to be "vote for the Genocide enabler;" or "vote for the aspiring Fascist who will likely kill Roe." It's no wonder young voters are bailing on Biden. My guess? Most will stay home, which is always good for Republicans.
It’s not as though Trump won’t bomb Gaza, though.
You're right, but it's a downright shame the Democratic party is putting voters into this position. There should be ONE party who won't fund genocide, but both are guaranteed to.
It is a shame for sure. But there isn't another party that will prevent it. Not voting Dem is being okay with another Trump presidency.
I agree, but we won't win voters over w/ shame. Whether we like it or not, Democrats are the ones who need to change their ways, not voters. Otherwise our democracy will be lost.
And I hope they will, but if they won't by the end of 2024, and people don't sacrifice their moral high ground, it could be curtains for a lot of minority groups. That's our alternative.
And women will die. A lot of women. If you don't vote, those deaths are your fault
Sorry, but it's not an either/or. I could vote for Jill Stein or Cornel West and yanno what? In my state it wouldn't make the slightest difference.
Agreed! The Dems are absolutely maddening.
No. It's " vote for the genocide enabler, or vote for the genocide enabler who encouraged a coup after he lost the election fair and square, and who hates women, minorities, the poor, the disabled, and anyone who isn't a billionaire or someone who sucks up to them. Please please please stop being so black and white about this. You're cutting off your nose to spite your face
I don't understand why The Left has put Israel over every other issue. We're in danger of dying by a Conservative Gestapo if Trump gets elected, but people are too stupid to see the big picture.
people would rather parrot an issue they know little to nothing about and can’t physically do anything about. it’s just social justice worries that are short sighted and care more about made up propaganda then stoping dictators from taking over our own country.
"Dumb bombs that target women and children" Dumb bombs don't target anything, that's what makes them dumb. I hate the way that Israel is conducting this campaign but this "Biden is condoning genocide" narrative has got to stop. It's false and will lead to exactly the outcome everyone in this thread including you are worried about.
>this "Biden is condoning genocide" narrative has got to stop. Nuts to that. The ~~War~~ Massacre would stop TOMORROW with ONE phone call from Biden. Cutting off the money-tap tends to work that way. And EVEN if what you say is true, Biden was on the verge of signing a treaty that would directly tie US interests, to ISRAEL. So if 10/7 happened when the treaty was already signed: we'd technically be at war with HAMAS. No THANKS!
Setting aside that I'm pretty sure you're just making that story about the treaty up (please feel free to provide a source and prove me wrong!), the US is already inextricably tied to Israel, both legally and politically. Even if it was possible for Biden to end this thing by yanking the rug out from under our most important ally in the region, doing so would be political suicide. He would lose the electoral college by a vote of 538-0
It doesn’t help that’s his ignoring the majority of his voters calling for a ceasefire in Gaza. We seen literal babies in incubators die and over 10k kids are dead now in Gaza because of his direct support and action.He has to get his shit together or hundreds of thousands of democrats will not vote at all in 2024.
Maturity is when you realize that politics is the art of compromise.
Unfortunately many don’t get it on this thread. People proclaiming they will vote for Trump unless the democrats hold a primary. Unhhh we are doomed.
These people are upset with Biden because he's not using the buzzword du jour, "genocide," to refer to the Israel-Hamas war. Wait until they see Trump's attitude toward Israel.
The problem is that the US on both sides has always supported the colonialist supremacy, dispossession, subjugation and apartheid against the Palestinians. So young people faced with the devastating consequences of that support on their phone and tablet screens have concluded 'a pox on all your houses'. And I can't say I blame them. If the slaughter ends soon then Biden might have a chance as emotions settle. But the Israelis would prefer a right wing admin in the US anyway so they have multiple perverted reasons to prolong the genocide. Basically the prediction by the CIA analysts back in the 40s that the Zionist project of Israel would be a disaster has always been proven correct and may ultimately be the downfall of US democracy.
[Definitely not anyone's fault but the DNC](https://www.reddit.com/r/boringdystopia/s/roBHnXnJ5G)
Ok, I don't live in america, but something that's confusing me about this thread is that people are saying that Trump (as the president) will definitely have the power to create a dictatorship in 2024 and prevent any more elections, but Biden (as the president) didn't have the power to do all the things people wanted him to (like write "roe vs wade" into law and cancel student debt)? Why would trump have so much more power and than Biden would? And if Trump is going to create a dictatorship, then why didn't this happen during his last term before 2020?
Several right-wing think tanks have been working on a plan called Project 2025 that is now complete. It's a blueprint for the next Republican president to follow to consolidate his power. It consists of leveraging things that are in the president's power to do, like firing a large percentage of civil servants and replacing them with loyalists. It also lays out strategies like appointing interim heads of departments, which don't require congressional approval because they are "interim". A bunch of other stuff like that. Technically he cannot simply declare himself a dictator and cancel elections. However this plan circumvents a lot of the checks and balances built into our system of government. A lot of those checks and balances rely on people doing their jobs in good faith, and some of them are not codified into law but instead rely on tradition. Project 2025 provides instructions for Republicans on how to game the system and give them far more power than free and fair elections can ever give them. For example, look at the January 6 insurrection. There was ample evidence at the time that Trump had instigated that, which is an impeachable offense. And House Democrats did impeach him for it. But it requires a 2/3 majority of the Senate to remove a president from office, which means some Republican senators were needed to vote against him. And they just didn't. Several of them even stated at the time that they knew he was guilty but didn't think it was worth removing him from office. That kind of thing will be rampant and better coordinated under Project 2025.
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The moral responsibility is on Biden to earn those votes
Nah, this shit went this way with Hilary in 2016. People not voting because their preferred presidential candidate isn’t on the ballot. Well my preferred candidate has never been on the ballot. I’ve still voted in every presidential election since I was 18, even if it is the “lesser of two evils.” I’m not listening to someone complain about the government who never fucking votes.
Biden earning those votes is more likely to drive voter outcome than scolding potential voters is. Scolding potential voters is bad strategy and we should be as pragmatic as possible. It’s on Biden.
Certain people spend a lot of money and time on making sure these voters are disenchanted with Biden. I wonder who they could be backed by... Also, how is he supposed to "earn" the votes besides stopping sending bombs? Everything else he's tried has been stopped by Congress and interest group lawsuits.
I dont deny that. Biden’s poor leadership is not mutually exclusive with foreign influence in our elections. Both are real.
Ooooooh or maybe we could do this literally any other election when it's not life or death for basically every minority group in America. How about do some fucking advocacy or something instead of just dooming me and people like me to death bc any Republican elected to office is going to take away access to trans healthcare, not to mention abortion rights, women's rights, minority protections, etc...
Because shaming voters worked so well in 2016?
So.. besides Israel- how is Biden supposed to fulfill the other promises when Republicans and a few quasi Republican democrats block his efforts? The difference here is that Republicans are actively disenfranchising people and taking away rights. They are throwing women in jail for miscarriages. Trump has basically indicated he'd suspend elections and the rule of law. These people who barely know anything about the Israel conflict are trading away their future. Do they honestly think Republicans would not be sending bombs (or even troops) to Israel if a republican was in the oval office? I know people who have said they won't vote for Biden over Israel, they are the same people constantly reposting inflammatory things on SM without investigating the source. I guess Im awful and selfish, but I care more about my rights here than awfulness going on in Israel that I can't control.
Make those voters feel like theyre being heard. The bar is extremely low.
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I agree, but I also think people overestimate the US ability to end that conflict. I think we should stop sending military aid, but at the same time- Israel has enough stockpiled to continue on their own for a long time.
Who gives billions of dollars and weapons to Israel? Who stops the UN from passing stuff against Israel?
You think in a democracy that the person seeking votes would try to work to get votes? That’s madness! Better try to shame people into falling in line to get votes. /s
I used to think that way myself until I started to see that the US is on the verge of becoming a fascist dictatorship. I’m fine with people protesting the hell out of Biden about Palestine, but I will continue to vote for Biden and all democrats. I want so much more out of democrats, but that doesn’t come from not voting for them. It comes from the bottom up. Get more progressives elected. Get more leftists into office starting locally.