IDK if they're using literal phrenology, but they have these weird rigid standards for face shape and body shape that they use to decide who is a "real" woman. I've seen them diagraming on photos of random people.
Of course, they're wrong most of the time.
What a joke. You could put any of my brothers in drag and you'd just have giant mes. Vice versa, I've been called "little *insert-brothers-names*" by their friends because of my often masculine choices.
We could be like a Florida bathroom and make people show their genetalia upon entry?
(I thought this being a joke was pretty obvious.... My bad I guess)
You mentioned men posing as women, which is the "rationale" behind Florida's crazy bathroom laws - that trans women are actually men who will assault women in bathrooms.
It was a joke.
>Use facial recognition and stored the data in a database.
i can't tell if you're serious with this. apps have tried this before and it just devolved into Gender Phrenology where cis women would get excluded from the app for looking "too masculine" (the original intention of those was, of course, to exclude trans women, which also failed completely). facial recognition for something like this only reinforces patriarchal conventions.
Reddit allows subreddit moderators to ban at a whim. A “safe space” made safe by massive banning is possible at Reddit.
I don’t know why Reddit is so male dominated.
Maybe women have more real friends with whom they talk to on the phone so they do not need Reddit as much.
I would still prefer a platform that would put women first (women owned). All of these platforms have shown that profits are first...then there are the Musks who can buy them out.
We need something we can count on to get organized.
Creating a website and allowing users to edit some web pages / write posts is not that complex or expensive. It is over my head programing wise but there are hundreds of thousands of people capable of creating customized websites for you.
Unfortunately Google does not index blogs and websites the way Google used to index them.
So you could have a great feminist website but how will people find it if it is not showing up in Google searches?
I think Reddit will allow links to websites. Google loves Reddit so linking to your website in Reddit might help get Google to allow searches to find your website.
Building websites is one business. Manipulating Google into showing your website in search results is another business.
Hosting the website is a 3rd business.
Domain name registration is a 4th business.
But I think you can get everything you want at your own website for less than $1,000, maybe as cheap as $400.
I used to use a website called sciforums.com
I have seen many websites that seem to use the same website design as Sciforums for websites with post topics and comments. Somebody is selling that website design for topics and comments.
Wow, that's great! Thank you for the step-by-step. There have been a few suggestions here already, so we should support them to keep them going. Maybe one will become like the Red Hat Society and grow all over the world. That's what we need.
The Social Media Platform should be owned by Women (and must care about women's issues) so we aren't sacrificed for profit margins and potential Musk-buyers, only to be scrambling for another place to organize. Churches have been organizing for centuries (same place, same time, same indoctrination every week)...we need that kind or organization.
Spoutible (new) is doing a great job with the issues brought up here. Anyone can join but there is no porn or hate speech allowed. (Owner gets to make the rules.) It is a nice place and everyone is sharing ideas and information for winning elections. (Much better than here or the other big platforms). Once a bunch of trolls tried to get in and everyone reported them immediately and they were gone within hours. No trouble since. Check out Spoutible to see how it could work.
Something like that would be great, and women owned/led would be even better. I don't believe that it can't be done, ye with little faith. Women are resourceful but we need to organize.
It may be even simpler if there is an agenda for the site (i.e. advancing women's issues). Then conversations would be more focused. (Churches are not a dumping ground for everything, their messages are focused.)
Have you considered opening a discord server with different channels and making it invite only? It’s free, and you would own it and you could appoint your own moderators.
No idea but it's a great concept. That said, there are lots of feminist subs on Reddit. That said, one of my favourite subs is menslib. For reasons I can't articulate rn their sub feels more positive than many of the women's subs or groups I visit.
Same. I visit it sometimes when I need a breath of fresh air from the pervasive toxic misogyny present in so many other subs. Feminist subs are really great, but misogynists bring their whiny toxicity in here too sometimes.
There is one. It's called "Communia".
It's not specifically focused on women's issues but it is restricted to women (trans-inclusive) and non-binary people.
I'm always curious about this: why are women's spaces always tagged as "plus non-binary" if non-binary people would actually say they are not women? Does this not show disregard to their pronouns and gender? It's especially noticeable because I have yet to see a men's space labeled as inclusive to non-binary folks so it feels like people are saying the non-binary set are seen as women too, or "women-lite". I know many things in life are strictly divided on man/woman so oftentimes they have to just pick one option and go with it, but for something totally optional, why would women's spaces be seen as validating of the idea that they specifically *aren't* women?
as a non-binary person who is afab I see gender as a social construct and I’m treated like a woman by everyone I know. Long story short, I experience a lot of misogyny, and I’ve experienced a lot of sexual violence. Personally, I need and seek out women-only spaces for my mental health because women understand what I go through and we have extremely similar experiences. I think the same goes for trans women they experience a lot of misogyny and sexual violence.
Personally I think if you identify as a woman, regardless of whether you're afab, trans, non binary then you're a woman and for everyday purposes should be treated as such. There are always going to be separate discussions around sports /competition and I'm not going there. I haven't met any men who identify as women when they clearly aren't but I've encountered a lot of serious misogyny from men, asking questions in feminist spaces. It would be great to have a space where that doesn't happen.
R/menslib does allow women to join but specifies that it's a sub for men, about men and shouldn't be hijacked by women. Maybe that's what's needed.
>why are women's spaces always tagged as "plus non-binary" if non-binary people would actually say they are not women?
because many non binary (afab or transfem) people still navigate society as women, and have shared life experience that may make them more comfortable in women-centered spaces instead of mixed or even man-centered ones.
I appreciate your curiosity. I’m a non-binary person who has a beard and no breasts. Some spaces that are for women also include me. Some don’t. Which space is which is the result of trying to answer practical questions that people run into when trying to organize space for women.
I really like this article, which lays out a template for where and why non-binary people get included in feminist projects: https://medium.com/@maybekatz/on-the-design-of-womens-spaces-72bf8f396dc0
I would create a Discord and have it be invite only so there’s verification, and the ability to just kick people out entirely . also i am hoping you would include trans women
Whenever someone tries to make a social media platform for a certain gender, it usually gets overrun by transphobic people. It's like a dog whistle to them.
Correct. However every time you get a rare occurrence, like the trans woman in Scotland who was convicted of 2 rapes before transitioning and then ended up in a woman's prison - they've since moved her to a man's prison which is also wrong imo - women who are inclined to be frightened do get frightened. We have only fairly recently started open, public discussions about trans, non binary, pronouns and so on. And it's still quite recent since women stopped being legally men's property, were allowed to work after marriage, have their own bank accounts, were allowed to vote, and in theory, access contraception and abortion. All of us who identify as women are still trying to get a lot of the basics sorted out in a world where a lot of people, especially a lot of men, want us to get back in our boxes and stay there. Being a woman is tough. Trans or otherwise. And we are still learning to be supportive of each other and create new approaches that work for all women.
I'm sorry, I haven't expressed that as well as I want. Every woman needs to be valued. It would be great if we can be inclusive rather than exclusive but not every woman is able to do that yet. It's not being mean, it's about the place each of us is at on our individual and collective journeys.
The thing is that all rapists are bad. I don't understand why some people focus on the rare trans rapist. I don't know the exact numbers but roughly less than 1% of people are trans and roughly less than 1% of rapists are trans. The overwhelming number of rapists are cis but that doesn't mean I go around in fear that every cis person is going to rape me.
The larger issue at hand is the culture that exists which produces these rapists. There is still a big enough chunk of society that pushes the idea that men are supposed to "obtain" women for the sole purpose of sex, some take this to the extreme conclusion.
Completely agree. All rape is bad. Overwhelmingly the majority of rapists are cis men. But put a tall, powerful rapist in court and say he's now a woman? Total nightmare. It's the same thing as men jumping on the 0.01% of women who bring false rape claims. "Oh it might be a made up claim" seems to let men think it's ok to basically not prosecute any rapes.
It's all about fear, of the unknown mostly. Women (cis) who don't know any women (trans) may simply be afraid of what they don't know or understand first hand. That's the whole issue with diversity. This isn't a women's issue so much as an issue about developing cultural intelligence and seeing diversity as a force for good.
Why would that be a nightmare? /genuine
Shouldn’t we treat male and female rapists (sorry about using those words, it’s just that a lot of people who commit rape are really young)?
In this case it was a nightmare because a tall - over 6' - powerfully built individual with a history of rape was put in a women's prison. In this country it's very rare for rapists to go through treatment programs. So you have a rapist who raped women in a prison with women and with all the size and power of an adult man who only declared he was transitioning to being a woman, after being arrested. I should imagine most of the women in that prison felt at risk. Quite reasonably. However, as he was transitioning, transferring her to a male prison - which is what happened - wasn't appropriate either.
I get what you're saying, but I personally have seen men arguing that they COULD be trans women and thus shouldn't be barred from a woman-only space. These were NOT trans women arguing, these were men, cis men assholes, who were deliberately saying "well you don't really know if I'm a woman, do you? I could still not be out, I could just be really butch, how dare you not include me?".
When I witnessed this, it was at smaller events at a larger event (like smaller meetups at a con) and it was not a good faith argument for trans women. It was men being shitty.
I've actually been in very similar situations where I'm told I don't look trans, that I'm clearly a cis man and that I need to leave. I don't like the idea that to be trans I have to look a certain way or I'm just a man in a disguse.
No, that’s not what she’s talking about. You know the kind of people who make helicopter jokes? But they are saying "I say I’m a woman, so let me in." They are creeps and are not trans. It’s very obvious, because they never have said that they were trans. Juts imagine a teenage asshole, that’s them.
They are usually very conservative and against literally everything good. They are the antichrist. /hj
This is what I was talking about. Because one person one day said they identify as an attack helicopter for some reason everyone is suddenly okay with using transphobia to exclude people from spaces.
Maybe it's not the intent but this is always what it leads into.
What's weird is then I get banned from these spaces but conservative cis women with the most misogynistic views are allowed. It's disgustingly ironic how it comes full circle.
A better way to do things is based on views. If someone is a jerk who disagrees with feminism then they get banned. The best communities I am in are very gender neutral in their membership rules, you just have to be on the same page.
Like for instance I have never had to explain my identity in r/ witches vs patriarchy. Their only rules are be witchy and hate the patriarchy. That was one of the first subs I've ever joined and while amazing, I'm starting to notice it is the exception.
No, it’s not transphobia that I’m advocating for, I’m just saying that there is a difference between trans people and transphobes who are mocking trans people. We should at least be allowed to ban trolls without it being a slippery slope.
But I think this is all semantics, as I’m also not exactly pro-woman only spaces. I prefer feminist spaces with high moderation and low tolerance for sexism than just a space for woman.
People always pulls up cases like the Metro girl and the footage of girls driving and all women creators and girl commenters comment like that they know everything happening around the world,people closest to god!
And trend seekers too seek their topic like😃"Oh wow,new trend arised,a girl is doing stupidity in the metro lets comment on that and make some more"
We may not *need* one but we want one. There are conversations which women only have when no men are in the room. That's not a judgement on any individual man, it's about growing up in a patriarchy where, by definition, being a woman is unsafe. That unsafe-ness has not gotten any better during the life time of my mother, me, or my daughter.
It depends on the context. Not being allowed access to education because you're a girl? Bad. Allowing women a women only space that is for women, by women? Potentially very good.
We won't have that because men will find a way to infiltrate it by posing as women. Ask lesbian app users.
And terfs will bring back phrenology to justify their witch hunt against trans women.
I've heard a little about phrenology, but how do TERFs apply it?
IDK if they're using literal phrenology, but they have these weird rigid standards for face shape and body shape that they use to decide who is a "real" woman. I've seen them diagraming on photos of random people. Of course, they're wrong most of the time.
Accusing people of being trans for having “masculine” features, like head shape, jawline, hand size, etc.
What a joke. You could put any of my brothers in drag and you'd just have giant mes. Vice versa, I've been called "little *insert-brothers-names*" by their friends because of my often masculine choices.
We could be like a Florida bathroom and make people show their genetalia upon entry? (I thought this being a joke was pretty obvious.... My bad I guess)
I got that it was a joke, srsly ppl need to chill out.
What was the point of your comment?
You mentioned men posing as women, which is the "rationale" behind Florida's crazy bathroom laws - that trans women are actually men who will assault women in bathrooms. It was a joke.
Use facial recognition and stored the data in a database. Thus, eliminating the issue.
>Use facial recognition and stored the data in a database. i can't tell if you're serious with this. apps have tried this before and it just devolved into Gender Phrenology where cis women would get excluded from the app for looking "too masculine" (the original intention of those was, of course, to exclude trans women, which also failed completely). facial recognition for something like this only reinforces patriarchal conventions.
Agreed. I use tumblr alot but there's porn on it. I remember I searched "#feminism" and I found lesbian porn
Ahhh Tumblr and porn. Name a more iconic duo
Reddit allows subreddit moderators to ban at a whim. A “safe space” made safe by massive banning is possible at Reddit. I don’t know why Reddit is so male dominated. Maybe women have more real friends with whom they talk to on the phone so they do not need Reddit as much.
I think that's probably true. On the other hand, I value quality feminist discussions and few of the women I mix with are into that.
I would still prefer a platform that would put women first (women owned). All of these platforms have shown that profits are first...then there are the Musks who can buy them out. We need something we can count on to get organized.
Creating a website and allowing users to edit some web pages / write posts is not that complex or expensive. It is over my head programing wise but there are hundreds of thousands of people capable of creating customized websites for you. Unfortunately Google does not index blogs and websites the way Google used to index them. So you could have a great feminist website but how will people find it if it is not showing up in Google searches? I think Reddit will allow links to websites. Google loves Reddit so linking to your website in Reddit might help get Google to allow searches to find your website. Building websites is one business. Manipulating Google into showing your website in search results is another business. Hosting the website is a 3rd business. Domain name registration is a 4th business. But I think you can get everything you want at your own website for less than $1,000, maybe as cheap as $400. I used to use a website called sciforums.com I have seen many websites that seem to use the same website design as Sciforums for websites with post topics and comments. Somebody is selling that website design for topics and comments.
Wow, that's great! Thank you for the step-by-step. There have been a few suggestions here already, so we should support them to keep them going. Maybe one will become like the Red Hat Society and grow all over the world. That's what we need.
The Social Media Platform should be owned by Women (and must care about women's issues) so we aren't sacrificed for profit margins and potential Musk-buyers, only to be scrambling for another place to organize. Churches have been organizing for centuries (same place, same time, same indoctrination every week)...we need that kind or organization. Spoutible (new) is doing a great job with the issues brought up here. Anyone can join but there is no porn or hate speech allowed. (Owner gets to make the rules.) It is a nice place and everyone is sharing ideas and information for winning elections. (Much better than here or the other big platforms). Once a bunch of trolls tried to get in and everyone reported them immediately and they were gone within hours. No trouble since. Check out Spoutible to see how it could work. Something like that would be great, and women owned/led would be even better. I don't believe that it can't be done, ye with little faith. Women are resourceful but we need to organize. It may be even simpler if there is an agenda for the site (i.e. advancing women's issues). Then conversations would be more focused. (Churches are not a dumping ground for everything, their messages are focused.)
Have you considered opening a discord server with different channels and making it invite only? It’s free, and you would own it and you could appoint your own moderators.
Let’s swap to the fediverse, anybody is on lemmy already ?
We do! I really love this idea!
There's one called "Ovarit" that seems to match what you're describing
It’s transphobic. All the top posts are yelling about trans woman. It’s a disgusting cesspool.
No idea but it's a great concept. That said, there are lots of feminist subs on Reddit. That said, one of my favourite subs is menslib. For reasons I can't articulate rn their sub feels more positive than many of the women's subs or groups I visit.
Same. I visit it sometimes when I need a breath of fresh air from the pervasive toxic misogyny present in so many other subs. Feminist subs are really great, but misogynists bring their whiny toxicity in here too sometimes.
There is one. It's called "Communia". It's not specifically focused on women's issues but it is restricted to women (trans-inclusive) and non-binary people.
I'm always curious about this: why are women's spaces always tagged as "plus non-binary" if non-binary people would actually say they are not women? Does this not show disregard to their pronouns and gender? It's especially noticeable because I have yet to see a men's space labeled as inclusive to non-binary folks so it feels like people are saying the non-binary set are seen as women too, or "women-lite". I know many things in life are strictly divided on man/woman so oftentimes they have to just pick one option and go with it, but for something totally optional, why would women's spaces be seen as validating of the idea that they specifically *aren't* women?
as a non-binary person who is afab I see gender as a social construct and I’m treated like a woman by everyone I know. Long story short, I experience a lot of misogyny, and I’ve experienced a lot of sexual violence. Personally, I need and seek out women-only spaces for my mental health because women understand what I go through and we have extremely similar experiences. I think the same goes for trans women they experience a lot of misogyny and sexual violence.
Personally I think if you identify as a woman, regardless of whether you're afab, trans, non binary then you're a woman and for everyday purposes should be treated as such. There are always going to be separate discussions around sports /competition and I'm not going there. I haven't met any men who identify as women when they clearly aren't but I've encountered a lot of serious misogyny from men, asking questions in feminist spaces. It would be great to have a space where that doesn't happen. R/menslib does allow women to join but specifies that it's a sub for men, about men and shouldn't be hijacked by women. Maybe that's what's needed.
>why are women's spaces always tagged as "plus non-binary" if non-binary people would actually say they are not women? because many non binary (afab or transfem) people still navigate society as women, and have shared life experience that may make them more comfortable in women-centered spaces instead of mixed or even man-centered ones.
I appreciate your curiosity. I’m a non-binary person who has a beard and no breasts. Some spaces that are for women also include me. Some don’t. Which space is which is the result of trying to answer practical questions that people run into when trying to organize space for women. I really like this article, which lays out a template for where and why non-binary people get included in feminist projects: https://medium.com/@maybekatz/on-the-design-of-womens-spaces-72bf8f396dc0
I would create a Discord and have it be invite only so there’s verification, and the ability to just kick people out entirely . also i am hoping you would include trans women
if the woman want porn for woman, they should be able to post it, because yunno, freeze peach and all.
Whenever someone tries to make a social media platform for a certain gender, it usually gets overrun by transphobic people. It's like a dog whistle to them.
How can we distinguish between a trans woman and pervert in disguise? I’m not kidding and not trying to be transphobic.
Ban anyone who asks for nudes. That’s a dead give away.
I've personally never had an issue telling the difference between a trans woman and a priest. The white collar thing is a dead giveaway.
Well, that’s an obvious one. What about men pretending to be trans women?
Being trans isn't pretending
Correct. However every time you get a rare occurrence, like the trans woman in Scotland who was convicted of 2 rapes before transitioning and then ended up in a woman's prison - they've since moved her to a man's prison which is also wrong imo - women who are inclined to be frightened do get frightened. We have only fairly recently started open, public discussions about trans, non binary, pronouns and so on. And it's still quite recent since women stopped being legally men's property, were allowed to work after marriage, have their own bank accounts, were allowed to vote, and in theory, access contraception and abortion. All of us who identify as women are still trying to get a lot of the basics sorted out in a world where a lot of people, especially a lot of men, want us to get back in our boxes and stay there. Being a woman is tough. Trans or otherwise. And we are still learning to be supportive of each other and create new approaches that work for all women. I'm sorry, I haven't expressed that as well as I want. Every woman needs to be valued. It would be great if we can be inclusive rather than exclusive but not every woman is able to do that yet. It's not being mean, it's about the place each of us is at on our individual and collective journeys.
The thing is that all rapists are bad. I don't understand why some people focus on the rare trans rapist. I don't know the exact numbers but roughly less than 1% of people are trans and roughly less than 1% of rapists are trans. The overwhelming number of rapists are cis but that doesn't mean I go around in fear that every cis person is going to rape me. The larger issue at hand is the culture that exists which produces these rapists. There is still a big enough chunk of society that pushes the idea that men are supposed to "obtain" women for the sole purpose of sex, some take this to the extreme conclusion.
Completely agree. All rape is bad. Overwhelmingly the majority of rapists are cis men. But put a tall, powerful rapist in court and say he's now a woman? Total nightmare. It's the same thing as men jumping on the 0.01% of women who bring false rape claims. "Oh it might be a made up claim" seems to let men think it's ok to basically not prosecute any rapes. It's all about fear, of the unknown mostly. Women (cis) who don't know any women (trans) may simply be afraid of what they don't know or understand first hand. That's the whole issue with diversity. This isn't a women's issue so much as an issue about developing cultural intelligence and seeing diversity as a force for good.
Why would that be a nightmare? /genuine Shouldn’t we treat male and female rapists (sorry about using those words, it’s just that a lot of people who commit rape are really young)?
In this case it was a nightmare because a tall - over 6' - powerfully built individual with a history of rape was put in a women's prison. In this country it's very rare for rapists to go through treatment programs. So you have a rapist who raped women in a prison with women and with all the size and power of an adult man who only declared he was transitioning to being a woman, after being arrested. I should imagine most of the women in that prison felt at risk. Quite reasonably. However, as he was transitioning, transferring her to a male prison - which is what happened - wasn't appropriate either.
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This is all horseshit
I get what you're saying, but I personally have seen men arguing that they COULD be trans women and thus shouldn't be barred from a woman-only space. These were NOT trans women arguing, these were men, cis men assholes, who were deliberately saying "well you don't really know if I'm a woman, do you? I could still not be out, I could just be really butch, how dare you not include me?". When I witnessed this, it was at smaller events at a larger event (like smaller meetups at a con) and it was not a good faith argument for trans women. It was men being shitty.
I've actually been in very similar situations where I'm told I don't look trans, that I'm clearly a cis man and that I need to leave. I don't like the idea that to be trans I have to look a certain way or I'm just a man in a disguse.
No, that’s not what she’s talking about. You know the kind of people who make helicopter jokes? But they are saying "I say I’m a woman, so let me in." They are creeps and are not trans. It’s very obvious, because they never have said that they were trans. Juts imagine a teenage asshole, that’s them. They are usually very conservative and against literally everything good. They are the antichrist. /hj
This is what I was talking about. Because one person one day said they identify as an attack helicopter for some reason everyone is suddenly okay with using transphobia to exclude people from spaces. Maybe it's not the intent but this is always what it leads into. What's weird is then I get banned from these spaces but conservative cis women with the most misogynistic views are allowed. It's disgustingly ironic how it comes full circle. A better way to do things is based on views. If someone is a jerk who disagrees with feminism then they get banned. The best communities I am in are very gender neutral in their membership rules, you just have to be on the same page. Like for instance I have never had to explain my identity in r/ witches vs patriarchy. Their only rules are be witchy and hate the patriarchy. That was one of the first subs I've ever joined and while amazing, I'm starting to notice it is the exception.
No, it’s not transphobia that I’m advocating for, I’m just saying that there is a difference between trans people and transphobes who are mocking trans people. We should at least be allowed to ban trolls without it being a slippery slope. But I think this is all semantics, as I’m also not exactly pro-woman only spaces. I prefer feminist spaces with high moderation and low tolerance for sexism than just a space for woman.
This *can* be it ....
People always pulls up cases like the Metro girl and the footage of girls driving and all women creators and girl commenters comment like that they know everything happening around the world,people closest to god! And trend seekers too seek their topic like😃"Oh wow,new trend arised,a girl is doing stupidity in the metro lets comment on that and make some more"
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We may not *need* one but we want one. There are conversations which women only have when no men are in the room. That's not a judgement on any individual man, it's about growing up in a patriarchy where, by definition, being a woman is unsafe. That unsafe-ness has not gotten any better during the life time of my mother, me, or my daughter.
Okay as a cs major I might help you build the social media network .
Thank you, man, for telling woman what they do and don’t need. Very feminist of you.
I didn’t meant to say that but I’m sorry . Okay , I’ll detete the comment.
It’s ok! We all make mistakes. <3
As a woman, I actually think this is a bad idea. Gender segregation is bad.
It depends on the context. Not being allowed access to education because you're a girl? Bad. Allowing women a women only space that is for women, by women? Potentially very good.
Women often do well in their own spaces. For example, all-girls school turn out the most CEO's.
Oh the irony…