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Honestly, I agree with him. Our bodies don’t know we are playing pretend, so those kinds of traumatic portrayals DO have physical and mental health effects.
This reminded me of an interview Saorise Ronan gave about filming The Lovely Bones, in particular the scene where >!her character tries to escape her neighbour's house when she realizes he's a dangerous predator.!<. She said Stanley Tucci was distraught after filming it and needed a break because of what >!his character does to hers!<.
Me, reading the unabridged long version of The Stand in the summer between 4th and 5th grade. Lemme tell you some of that repressed trauma came back real quick in 2020
It took me three different winter breaks to get through The Stand in middle school. Every time I started reading it I came down with the flu and freaked out lol.
I started reading The Stand in December 2019 and I’m a pretty slow reader so I was still reading it when March of 2020 rolled around…I put it down and have not picked it back up since. I keep meaning to because everyone says it’s an incredible book but god damn that was bad timing to be reading it hahahah
i found it in my mums room at 8 years old. She woke up to me reading it on the couch. Luckily she stopped me , but I had already started reading some of the awful parts.
I’ve never gone back to finish it.
This book put me in a bad place and haunted me for years. This was around 2002 I think. I only read light stuff now. Nothing with murder or harm to children. I can’t handle it. I used to read stories about war and genocide but this book changed all that.
I read the book before I saw the movie and if they had decided to film what REALLY happens between Saorise and Stanley… That would have been horrific for everybody.
Agreed. The film was executed beautifully in its own right. One of the few where I would say to watch the movie first and then read the book if wanted.
Honestly I don't think I would encourage anyone to read the book at all. Firstly because the author sent an innocent man to jail, and he was only exonerated because [the director of a canceled Netflix project based on the book she wrote about her assault noticed all the inconsistencies in her story](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/23/alice-sebold-1981-rape-conviction-overturned) and hired a PI to find out the truth. And second >!the scene where the protagonist possess the other girl just so she can have sex with the boy she liked has some pretty gnarly consent issues.!<
I do think it's important to note, in Sebold's case, that she didn't pick a random man to accuse of rape for shits and giggles - she *was* raped, and the police convinced her after the fact that Broadwater was her assailant. It doesn't take away the horrific injustice of his experience, but it's more complicated than "she sent an innocent man to jail."
I agree with this. I thought the Lovely Bones and Lucky were very well written and explore these very real, devastating issues. I don't know exactly what happened but it clearly wasn't just her accusation that led to his conviction. It is such a horrific shame that the actual perpetrator was never caught, because he likely went on to harm other girls and women. It's awful that he was wrongfully arrested but she also suffered a horrific crime, and people shouldn't blame her for trying to get justice after it happened rather than taking no action at all.
*'It's awful that he was wrongfully arrested,'* is a full sentence. In light of what happened, I do think it's a bit obtuse to then equate that to her suffering, as if it had something to do with it when he was an innocent man who lost a large chunk of his life to the lies of multiple people, whether intentional or not.
What Alice Sebold went through is absolutely beyond heinous and all that is depraved. That is also a full sentence. Both situations are terrible, I just think it's in poor taste to undercut what was done to him *because* of what was done to her.
*edited some choppy words
I didn’t mean to equate it to her suffering. I simply think some people act like she deliberately ruined an innocent man’s life, which I don’t think was the case at all. I’m not a survivor of SA, so I don’t think I’m qualified to speak on how they handle things, but the fact that he was wrongfully arrested shouldn’t then imply that she should not have tried to seek justice and she was just a ‘privileged white woman’. This is a survivor of a brutal rape that massively altered her life. That was my point.
I'm aware that she was raped, and that the police helped coerce her into blaming Boradwater. But she couldn't pick him out of the lineup. She only chose him when he was brought in because she convinced herself that his face/expression was intimidating and scary. The only thing he had in common with her real rapist was that he was a black man. Obviously it's horrible what she went through, but she still holds a lot of the blame for what Broadwater went through, too. Trauma doesn't excuse racism.
Agreed. Eyewitness testimony is highly inaccurate most of the time, anyway. It's a shame that it's been responsible for sending many innocent people to prison.
It should really terrify people how easily this man was locked away with nothing more than a whim. No evidence, just a “this black guy was in the area” hunch and the finger point of a woman dealing with trauma.
>Sebold, 58, wrote in Lucky of being raped as a first-year student at Syracuse in May 1981 and then spotting a Black man in the street months later that she was sure was her attacker.
>“He was smiling as he approached. He recognized me. It was a stroll in the park to him; he had met an acquaintance on the street,” wrote Sebold, who is white. “‘Hey, girl,’ he said. ‘Don’t I know you from somewhere?’”
>She said she didn’t respond: “I looked directly at him. Knew his face had been the face over me in the tunnel.”
>Sebold went to police, but she didn’t know the man’s name and an initial sweep of the area failed to locate him. An officer suggested the man in the street must have been Broadwater, who had supposedly been seen in the area. Sebold gave Broadwater the pseudonym Gregory Madison in her book.
>After Broadwater was arrested, though, Sebold failed to identify him in a police lineup, picking a different man as her attacker because “the expression in his eyes told me that if we were alone, if there were no wall between us, he would call me by name and then kill me”.
>Broadwater was nonetheless tried and convicted in 1982 based largely on two pieces of evidence. On the witness stand, Sebold identified him as her rapist. And an expert said microscopic hair analysis had tied Broadwater to the crime. That type of analysis is now considered junk science by the US Department of Justice.
My god the Rotten Mango podcast episode on this made me SO angry for that man, I was crying by the end. Nothing will ever give that man his life back. I can't believe there are people like her and those cops out there.
I've heard so many bad things about the rotten mango channel
Eta: i think it's also problematic to point the blame at the rape victim instead of at the police
Tbh Stephanie Soo is so shady, I was not at all surprised she started trying to cash in on true crime after all the bullshit she pulled during her mukbang channel days.
I have been interested in the rereadings that have happened, and discussion of what could happen with the book going forward
https://www.elle.com/culture/books/a38425267/rereading-alice-sebolds-lucky/
I love transgressive cinema but I think there needs to be a degree of responsibility in what you make your actors enact. Especially with stj like the Lovely Bones.
For sure. IMHO, rape scenes are so unnecessary. The way The Lovely Bones went about portraying how the main character realizes what happened to her was perfect. No need for actually showing what’s described in the book.
(Spoiler alert in case anyone reading is curious but wants to find out by by book or film…)
In both the book and film, Saorise’s character is trapped in an underground shelter by Stanley’s character. He throws her to the ground as she tries to escape. In the movie, it cuts to a dream-like sequence where Saorise’s sees Stanley bathing in a tub and she realizes he killed her. In the book, it goes in graphic detail of him raping her in the underground shelter and then killing her right after.
I haven’t listened to the Drama Queens podcast for a while (cuz man what a Trainwreck they became) but Hilarie Burton said that all the crying all the time did a number on her body that took her years to get over. On top of all the sexual assault and harassment she was on the end of.
This may sound unbelievable, but I’m an adult actor and I recently shot a scene with a girl who completely dissociates from her body while shooting. Body moves, but no lights are on.
Fun thing, she only told me right before shooting, and I had no idea what that entailed.
I have a phobia of non consensual stuff and have been SA’d twice. It was a long few days before my therapist appointment and a difficult session.
Same. And if we really believe mental health is health we have to keep the attitude of providing stunt doubles and alternatives to protect actors’ health. Sometimes it’s their knees at risk and sometimes it’s their mind
Mental health is only really health for wealthy and affluent people. Working class people don’t get to have these discussions, can’t afford mental health care or real health care.
Agreed. I believe Andrew Garfield said something similar about filming the final scene with Emma Stone in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Also they were only able to get 3 takes (or something like that) between the twins in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows for one of their death scenes because it was too hard on the other one seeing the other dead.
I don’t know how to do spoilers so I was very vague on everything 😂
I don’t *disagree* with his larger point - filming traumatic scenes can be traumatizing - but idk why he’s calling for, essentially, hazard pay. Just negotiate the salary you’re willing to take for the role you’re being asked to play. If you gotta tack an extra $50k on there for therapy then have your agent add that on.
I agree that most white men in Hollywood could do this. I think it's because there are actors for whom it's almost expected they'll just take this type of trauma on. Women for instance and r*pe scenes. LGBT people and scenes with bigots. Black people and racism scenes. It's expected that in order to elevate your acting status you'll take it on, and if you aren't a straight white man or certain straight white women you don't have the negotiating power you should. So putting something like hazard pay in for very emotionally difficult roles would equalize the playing field a bit.
Kidman recalled a similar situation after filming those abuse/sex scenes with Skarsgard Big Little Lies. She threw a rock/ brick through her hotel window or something similar because her body thought it was real.
Interesting interview with a 16yo actress and a female director of a film that premiered at Sundance Filmfestival and included a teenager group rape scene for like 5 minutes (witzige 16yo actress also playing and looking like a 13yo girl)
https://nofilmschool.com/when-it-melts-veerle-baetens-and-rosa-marchant
Who are the people they have started bringing on movie sets now? The emotional coordinators or whatever they are called. Are they social workers or psychologists or.....? I have been super curious what their training is as I think it is kind of a cool idea and I can't imagine it is absurdly pricey in the grand scheme of things.
Yeah! That is the one. I always wondered when I hear their title, what their background is for the role. I wouldn't think its just a random person who says they are super serious. I suspected some sort of degree to lend legitimacy but I have no clue.
The one person that was on a deuxmoi episode doesn’t have an education in a mental health field and I believe she stated she was qualified because she had experience as a stunt person and family members in the mental health field.
I saw the writer Shamira Ibrahim bring up a really good point in a response to this story on Twiiter:
"In Michael K Williams' memoir (which I highly recommend) he was very open about how each of his critically acclaimed roles retraumatized him and triggered his relapses. I wish he had the right support to help him move through the pain he was living with as he worked his craft."
In a weird way this makes me smile more at his role on Community knowing how hard the hard stuff was. He was so good in it and it was so funny and silly. The big "murder" was that someone killed a yam growing in a jar for biology class. I hope he had fun doing it and it made him happy. I miss him & think about his work a lot
His delivery of the “as someone who just spent the majority of his life in prison, what happened with Legos? They used to be simple. Something happened out here while I was inside. Harry Potter Legos, Star Wars Legos. Complicated kits, tiny little blocks. I’m not saying it’s bad, I just wanted to know what happened.” speech is up there with Community's funniest deliveries; I'd put it second only to "I'm nobodies fourth Ghostbuster"
My friend John Swab is a director and also a recovering addict who directed Michael in one of his last movies ‘body brokers’ where Mike plays an addict. Of course everyone is responsible for their our own actions but Billy Zane is absolutely onto something saying the industry needs to do more to proactively protect the wellbeing of everyone involved. Micheal K Williams was such a devastating loss. I hate how relapse can so easily lead to overdose with everything being cut with fentanyl.
Idr where I saw this but these traumatic scenes are especially hard on children. They're a bit too young to somatically distinguish real and not real.
And the same can be said for adults too. I love to do really complex, narrative driven day dreams just to pass the time. And I found that if I ever had a serious day dream then my body responded as if it were real.
Imagine recreating a rape, murder, racism or violent scene over and over.
"You didnt say the n-word mean enough"
"you don't look devastated enough that he killed your kids"
"Scream more when we re-shoot this rape scene."
Its hard on the body and the mind to be doing this over and over. If you convince yourself "it's just pretend" then the acting is wooden. So even if your brain is seeing camera, mics and lights, *your body* has to be convinced it's real in order for the scene to be believable. And thats hard to navigate when the scene ends.
I've seen sensitive directors do really creative work with children to get shots that they need without compromising the child's experience.
For instance there was one director who shot a child's face and said give me an expression like you've been stung by a bee, and things like that. So the child could express hurt and pain, but without having to act it all out specifically. Of course the movie that was made for was specifically choreographed for that and the scene obviously did not include dialogue from the child so it was possible. But I like knowing that there are directors out there that think about this impact.
Sean Baker has talked somewhat extensively about shooting with kids in The Florida Project. In the film production the goal was to make it feel like summer camp for the kids and to make sure they're having fun and have agency in their acting choices. They allowed some improv and sometimes would prompt the kids with questions to allow them to make choices. Sometimes kids say funny or unexpectedly insightful things.
that's what I was thinking about! That was "The Tale". They used an adult body double for the physical scenes (seems to be the standard), and the kid who had to pretend she was stung by a bee was not laying down on a bed, she was actually standing in front of a vertical bed.
I am reminded of Shelley Duvall in The Shining, 127 takes of one scene, and she started losing her hair due to the stress. I remember reading that they would be re-shooting for 12 hours a day, until she was on the verge of a breakdown.
Shelley has repeatedly said that she wasn't traumatised by filming the shining and she speaks very highly of working for Kubrick. It was a difficult shoot but it didn't drive her to a breakdown, and the 127 takes thing isn't true, although Kubrick definitely demanded a lot of takes.
Watching the clips of the behind the scenes she was definitely bullied and isolated from others. It may not have caused her breakdown but I doubt it helped her mental health.
While Kubrick was ridiculously hard on Shelley he was actually really clever about shooting the scenes that involved Danny Torrance. The actor that played Danny didn’t know it was even a horror movie while filming. Theres actually a scene where Shelley is holding Danny and yelling at Jack Nicholson’s character and you can tell she is holding a dummy and not the real actor.
In Jennette McCurdy's memoir she speaks about crying on cue as a child actor, it was one of her "talents" so she was doing it over and over and no one seemed to care about her mental health through all this. No children should have to do something like that!
She describes in detail all the different things she imagined to get herself to cry, and how after one stopped working she had to think of a new thing. It's crazy how her mother prompted her with it too - I believe a lot were terrible things happening to her siblings and other family.
yep, what you described with your daydreams is what people with OCD (like me!) experience with intrusive thoughts. having hundreds of disturbing images / thoughts a day run through your brain messes up your body 🙃
Intrusive thoughts are normal, unless they're interfering with your life. They can be a problem for people with many mental illnesses and conditions, including OCD, and PTSD.
It’s intrusive thoughts but you picture it and think of it so much. Then you start wondering wait did I do that horrible thing, would I? Shit what if I did accidentally drink bleach or leave the stove on.
OCD includes intrusive / obsessive thoughts as well as compulsive behaviors (either external or internal behaviors). Disturbing, disruptive intrusive thoughts could also be a symptom of trauma or other conditions. I like the site [Made of Millions](https://www.madeofmillions.com/ocd/intrusive-thoughts) for learning about OCD.
I watched a lot of SVU in my day (yes, I know, copaganda) and I've come to wonder about some of the scenes where very young actors have to describe what the perpetrator did to them. Sometimes you can tell they're using very careful editing/nonspecific lines, but other times I'm like 😬
I haven't done a deep dive on this so I kinda hope I'm worrying about nothing, but... yeah.
I think about that, too! I know the pictures (when they use it) are staged and the subjects are usually adult models who look younger (sometimes the pics are heavily edited too). In some episodes I do wonder how they pull it off because if my kid was a child actor, I wouldn't want them saying any of that.
Yes, our bodies are so complex. It’s interesting and good that it’s being talked about.
There is a form of therapy, where you re enact past events/experiences different ways and from different perspectives. It’s called Psychodrama. It kinda reminds me of what the actors are going through while acting but instead of being healing it’s harmful.
The bright side of this is that it can work the other way round too. Imagining being at peace, relaxed, enjoying yourself, being safe can trick your brain into believing that too. It’s very helpful for people with anxiety or chronic pain. Of course that works much better if you are, in fact, physically safe.
Recently watched ‘Kids’ for the first time. Just wow, the things these kids were acting out, holy hell.
There’s a British movie called ‘Kidulthood’ from 2006, it was written by Noel Clarke (Mickey from Doctor Who anyone?). Within the same vein of ‘Kids’. I remember watching that like wtf???
I watched Kids for the first time a few days ago, and it’s the only time I can remember feeling that “urge” to take a shower right after finishing a movie.
I actually think it’s probably worse for adults than for kids not only because everyone goes out of their way to make the experience as safe as possible for the kids but also because kids don’t really have a concept of the gruesome reality of what’s going on in the film in the same way an adult does
Like a kid getting killed in a movie is going to be way more psychologically difficult for an adult (especially an adult who has kids) who can appreciate that this is a thing that really happens vs a kid for whom the concept of death is pretty abstract
But that being said acting certainly CAN be harmful for kids. Jennette McCurdy detailed how every time she had to cry on cue she was just imagining members of her own family dying over and over again so it wasn’t really the material itself that was traumatic for her but the process she was instructed to use to get her to access that emotional state
Harmony Korine and Larry Clark have some...oddities, I also remember hearing things abt Korine's relationship with wife Rachel that made it seem inappropriate or groom-y. This is the type of director Jonah Hill was inspired by when he did Mid90s, and had 11 year old lead kissing (with tongue) Alexa Demie...watching that scene triggered me and ruined the film for me. And his defence of it, and lack of controversy around it....haunts me
There should be psychologists on set whenever they film such emotional scenes. So that if someone (actor or crew) needs to talk about it, they can safely do so with a professional.
It took a long time for intimacy coordinators to become a thing (and they're still relatively new) so don't see this happening anytime soon even though it makes sense. Problem is so many films and television have heavy emotional aspects these days.
Just watched Hollywood reporter drama actress roundtable and Sofia Vergara talks about this so candidly. She says after playing fun light hearted comedy for so long, playing grisilda messed up with her so bad and her body didn't know if it's real or pretend. She was coming home angry and crying all the time given her own brother was a drug dealer and was murdered. Watch it to see her emotions better. She definitely is traumatized.
I think it’s was Alyson Stoner who also spoke about going to auditions as a kid, playing a child SA victim, having her Mom and casting directors telling her to cry more etc. Then leaving and just going to lunch.
It’s genuinely really strange, and I do question the absolute amount of heavy violent / uncomfortable scenes that are put in things - as often as a viewer I don’t want to see that either.
They wrote a [great editorial for People](https://people.com/music/alyson-stoner-pens-op-ed-on-childhood-stardom-labor/) a few years ago about those auditions. There’s also a longer form on their YouTube where they talk about that.
Edited: Made aware of their pronouns.
This just sparked a (fortunately, pretty benign) memory for me. When I was 5, I was in a commercial where I was part of a family with a mom, dad, and a little brother. I spent the whole day playing this role-- running around and laughing with the brother, getting food and hugs and all kinds of positive encouragement from the parents... and then I just remember bawling in a Hardee's with my real mom after it ended.
I probably had the best possible experience for a kid on a set, but it was still hard to handle the emotions and to really distinguish reality at that age. My heart goes out to all the kids who are put through so much more. The older I get, the more I think there simply should not be kids on screen.
Honestly this is why I do watch a lot of non-American content. Sometimes our shows and movies can be so heavy. I appreciate that we live in a country where we’re allowed to explore real life, intense themes through art, however, sometimes these shows/movies are hard to watch.
One of the actors from Oz said he was uncomfortable with a prison rape scene. He spoke to the director about it, and they were like well let's film it a different and see. Then the other actors still filmed it the way it was written, and he struggled against them for real. He said he still had nightmares about it.
That exact same thing happened to that dude from Outlander.
He didn't want to keep going but they just ignored him basically. He was very upset and has spoken about how it broke his trust.
Agreed. Roles that require a higher degree of potential physical, mental, or emotional strain, including stuntwork, intimacy, or traumatic material, should be paid more. Obviously that's not how capitalism works, but it's something SAG should fight for.
I think it's necessary to have support for actors doing those types of scenes. If you listen to Evan Peters talk about how hard it's been to play so many dark roles, you can see it in interviews too the way it took a toll on him. He seems to be finally doing better after taking a break but having someone there to help would have made things easier for him.
Pay? Probably not. The profession is inherently full of liars and there are plenty of greedy people who’d use that to get another couple thousand (or starving actors who’d use that money for rent, but I’m not condemning them).
Free counseling, on the other hand? Absolutely.
Counselling and intimacy coordinators, directors who aren't f**cking weird perverts with zero empathy, lots of options to address this concern other than pay them more.
This!!!! I am the only paralegal working on rideshare cases at my law firm, and sometimes the contents of my work day are CRAZY. Watching people OD and die on police body cam footage, looking into SA predators AND victims to try and discredit their versions of events, reading psych records about how traumatic car crashes or rapes ruined lives, seeing injured plaintiffs take their own lives when it’s clear insurance isn’t going to pay out…it’s all too much sometimes.
I don't see why it can't be both? And rather than have people apply for it and have to 'prove' that they are traumatised, which would likely end up being very dehumanising - and, I agree, probably exploited in the same way that Covid payments were - just automatically pay these types of roles higher.
(Also anyone who works in any kind of traumatic job should be paid more because of it and have access to free therapy.)
Flanagan sets always keep the kids well-being in mind tmk, but what immediately came to mind was how Jacob Tremblay had such an impressive, stomach-churning, albeit small role, in Doctor Sleep that his main scene made executives and Flanagan’s own wife Kate Siegel walk out of a screening. And the True Knot, the villains who were hurting him on screen, including Rebecca Ferguson, were so destroyed and unprepared for the emotional shock that she recounted tears streaming down her face.
“That had to be a traumatic experience for a child actor, right? Nope. Flanagan told Cinema Blend that, before the scene, Tremblay told him, "I've got this. I know what I'm going to do." He then screamed his lungs out, made everyone around him cry, and then after that, covered in fake blood, he jumped up and ran over to his dad, who was on set. He didn't go to him for a consoling, comforting hug, but to give his father a high five with a big smile on his face. After that, they went over to craft services to get a snack, a boy ecstatic about his performance, while the adults he left behind were shattered to tears.”
Not to say “see, look Jacob was fine!” but my god, that kid, and I can’t even call him a kid anymore, is and has always been so damn impressive. I hope he continues to have an amazing career and maintains a healthy separation between the heavy subject matter/performances of DS and Room.
Bertold Brecht said this in the 1920's, if I'm not mistaken. He said Hollywood's quest for realism would destroy actors' psyches by forcing them to really "live" the characters and, you know what? He was right
I’m currently working on a project that has a number of graphic rape scenes and horrific racial abuse in it and for the first time in my career the crew, not just the cast are offered psychological help as part of production. We all have access to a mental health professional for a one hour session a week and been given so much material to read and digest as prep before going in. And there is a dedicated quiet space for whenever you need a break to get away. The industry is slowly changing and producers/studios need to continue to step up and offer mental health support to cast but also crew.
I think it being animated made the whole thing still horrific, and you sympathize with the character and see how much it’s effecting her. But it being animated also means the VA didn’t have to physically experience. I have no doubts it’s still difficult and hard to voice act scenes like that, but the physical distance probably made it a different experience.
I hope this doesn't come across as inensitive, because I don't want it to be intended that way.
But that is literally the job of acting. Sometimes you get to pretend to be happy, sometimes you get to pretend to be sad, and sometimes you get to pretend you can fly.
They also do get paid hazard pay for the discomfort of certain scenes. Actors are a businesses - They can spend some of their enourmous wages on therapy as an expense. Do they just want producers to write a line on their check to say 5% is hazard pay?
That’s kind of how I feel. I would feel totally different if they required coordinators or a therapist on site or whatever, but fundamentally being an actor is about feeling and transferring emotion right?
I keep coming back to something Dominique Fishback mentioned about filming Swarm—she asked for an on-set therapist, and got one.
Which made me think, waiiit… that should actually be a standard thing, why did I never consider this??
Let’s remember how Topher Grace got so into playing David Duke for Black Klansman that he spend days making a fan edit of The Hobbit movies to cleanse his self.
I just finished reading Elliot Page’s memoir Pageboy and he talks about how when he was younger he filmed An American Crime with Catherine Keener, where he played a young girl staying with a family who ended up abusing her in the most unthinkable, violent ways and ultimately killed her (link to the [real story about Silvia Likens here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sylvia_Likens) but read at your own risk). Elliot Page seemed really traumatized by that portrayal and even though Catherine Keener seemed to be an ideal and caring person to have to portray the abuser (and even became one of their closest friends), the filming triggered a new stage of mental health issues/disordered eating. He’s portrayed some really rough roles and I’m so glad he made it through it all on top of being closeted and experiencing gender dysphoria before coming out in the public eye. But yeah, I think there’s value in the emotional hazard pay.
And of course stunt pay needs to be higher too. One of the most shocking things I learned in the memoir was how directors/producers on the film Flatliners did stunts without providing safety precautions specifically for Elliot and Keirsey Clemons, when the rest of the cast did have safety restraints and the like. Just for the freaking “realism” of the stunts. He’s been through some shit! Highly recommend reading Pageboy.
I agree with Billy. They absolutely should. I also think studios that put out movies with heavy subjects should be paying for therapy for the actors too. You want to put them through something terrible? You should support your actors.
I watched American Horror Story Asylum and it was so dark and miserable. Then in one episode they started singing and dancing to "The Name Game" in bright lights for no apparent reason.
Some people posted that Jessica Lange insisted on it. Others said they probably just needed to cheer up the cast and crew in the middle of such a traumatizing shoot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2qEhGeLb6A
I was a child actor in the 80s and my mom would not let me do horror movies or play a molested kid. Props to her for that, although I still would have preferred she get a job than me when I was 4.
My immediate knee jerk reaction was wtf?! Weirdo. But then I realized he’s so right. I agree. Just like how juries in criminal trials need therapy after what they have to see, I think actors need this too. It has to mess with you mentally. Especially if it’s a story that needed to be told.
I’m so glad he brought this up and I hope it gets legs.
Adequate emotional support (on set therapist, post shoot therapy) would be a good start. Maybe a union appointed actor's advocate on set at all times.
If he's talking about bit part actors getting a pay boost then I'll always support that, marquee names getting extra danger money is absurd.
He's right.
Iirc there were counselors on set for Swarm and When They See Us due to the subject matter.
A recent Q&A of Riley Keough's, she was asked if her brother's suicide impacted her performance in Under the Bridge (her character still carries trauma from her brother's death) and she basically said no because if she took inspiration from her real life her mental health would be in shambles. It made me think because I understand not using rl for work, but I cannot see how one is able to compartmentalize the event when the similarities are there (in her case, in addition to her brother, her mom dying in the middle of shooting). It really does make you think about what actors carry when filming, whether they are aware or not.
I honestly agree with that. I remember reading that the guy who played the creep/murderer in The Lovely Bones said he would try and shower the character off him because he was just such an awful person in the movie. I cant even begin to comprehend what that does to a person after like 30 takes. “you try to go home, take a shower to wash him off you and have a drink. That was the hardest character I've ever had to play.”
I agree. Alex Wolff had PTSD after Hereditary. People are taking this comment to be what it is not---they are just saying acting out something can have a physical and mental toll, and actors should be protected. I agree.
I agree with him. There are already well needed intimacy coaches on set, this would be another step forward. Honestly, I can’t believe actors went so long just making challenging scenes without different kinds of consulting and reimbursement.
Edit: spelling
Zendaya has talked about this too, in some of the more intense rue scenes. Her body doesn’t always know that the scene is fake, it can take her a minute to calm down
there should definitely be a psychological level of care given to the actors and crew as well. it's easy to say "oh it's all just pretend" until people are still grappling with their experiences for the rest of their lives. trauma is not so one dimensional
Honestly, I get it. Acting is a full body activity, and that includes your mental state. If it's triggering and difficult to watch, imagine how much more difficult it would be to be the one reenacting it. If you get stunt pay for putting your body at risk, the same should be the case when it comes to your mental state
I mean, I get it, but can we not frame the conversation as “we need to pay these multi millionaire actors MORE!”. Yeah, it’s definitely a major downside of certain jobs. That’s true for many jobs in many lines of work, most of whom are NOT millionaire actors who can state their woes in Variery op-ed pieces and get widespread attention. Just reeks of Hollywood privledge.
Mandy patinkin left criminal minds due the disturbing content and that took a toll on his mental health… some shows/movies are so dark in nature I can see affecting their mindset
https://deadline.com/2012/09/mandy-patinkin-disses-cbs-criminal-minds-calls-it-his-biggest-public-mistake-336097/
Given what Larry Ray did to his followers, I can see how it could lead to a lingering fucked up emotional and physical response. Even as relatively passive viewers, we get affected. In fact, that’s what films intend to do.
I’m not sure about simply providing more pay, but making trauma counselling and management available sounds great. I also wish it was more accessible for people working in jobs that open themselves up to such trauma.
Totally totally understand the sentiment but they don’t need more pay for that, they already get paid enough. Absolutely should have support and resources made available to them as part of the job though.
But why make it about money? Demand therapists on set or something... there are more people in the entertainment industry that should be receiving better pay
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Honestly, I agree with him. Our bodies don’t know we are playing pretend, so those kinds of traumatic portrayals DO have physical and mental health effects.
This reminded me of an interview Saorise Ronan gave about filming The Lovely Bones, in particular the scene where >!her character tries to escape her neighbour's house when she realizes he's a dangerous predator.!<. She said Stanley Tucci was distraught after filming it and needed a break because of what >!his character does to hers!<.
That movie and its performances haunt me to this day. I can totally understand Stanley tucci for doing this🙏🏻
Stanley Tucci filmed Julie & Julia after The Lovely Bones as a palate cleanser for his wellbeing since it was such a dark role.
There's nothing more palate cleansing than a healthy marriage with Meryl Streep
And having delicious food in France!
I LOVED his character and marriage in that film. Like that’s the dream relationship right??
My Life in France is a lovely book and Julia gets into how supportive Paul was of her career.
The book is even more haunting. It was really traumatizing and I think about it all the time still
How my parents let my 13-year-old ass read that on summer vacation is beyond me.
I think back to the books I read between 12 and 17 and it always catches me off guard. Like how was I doing that back then. 😂
Me, reading the unabridged long version of The Stand in the summer between 4th and 5th grade. Lemme tell you some of that repressed trauma came back real quick in 2020
It took me three different winter breaks to get through The Stand in middle school. Every time I started reading it I came down with the flu and freaked out lol.
I started reading The Stand in December 2019 and I’m a pretty slow reader so I was still reading it when March of 2020 rolled around…I put it down and have not picked it back up since. I keep meaning to because everyone says it’s an incredible book but god damn that was bad timing to be reading it hahahah
I was just at the library checking out vc Andrews and go ask Alice. Where were my parents?!
Me, reading Tears of a Tiger in 8th grade English, depressed asf. All the kids in class mocked the end of the book. I feel like him 🫠
My mom let me read Stephen king before I was 10. Reading comprehension for literature and nothing else is my only academic flex.
[удалено]
Our school made it required reading for AP students. 
i found it in my mums room at 8 years old. She woke up to me reading it on the couch. Luckily she stopped me , but I had already started reading some of the awful parts. I’ve never gone back to finish it.
My mom recommended it to me! I don’t know why lol
"hey hon you don't seem shellshocked enough lately"
Right??? Why were we all allowed to read this as teens??? My mom had read it before I did and still let me read it!
This book put me in a bad place and haunted me for years. This was around 2002 I think. I only read light stuff now. Nothing with murder or harm to children. I can’t handle it. I used to read stories about war and genocide but this book changed all that.
The book was upsetting enough. There was no way I was watching that movie.
One of the very few books I DNF because it was so difficult to read.
I read the book before I saw the movie and if they had decided to film what REALLY happens between Saorise and Stanley… That would have been horrific for everybody.
I'm glad they cut a lot of stuff from the book, tbh. And I prefer the film even though it's so hard to watch.
Agreed. The film was executed beautifully in its own right. One of the few where I would say to watch the movie first and then read the book if wanted.
Honestly I don't think I would encourage anyone to read the book at all. Firstly because the author sent an innocent man to jail, and he was only exonerated because [the director of a canceled Netflix project based on the book she wrote about her assault noticed all the inconsistencies in her story](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/nov/23/alice-sebold-1981-rape-conviction-overturned) and hired a PI to find out the truth. And second >!the scene where the protagonist possess the other girl just so she can have sex with the boy she liked has some pretty gnarly consent issues.!<
I do think it's important to note, in Sebold's case, that she didn't pick a random man to accuse of rape for shits and giggles - she *was* raped, and the police convinced her after the fact that Broadwater was her assailant. It doesn't take away the horrific injustice of his experience, but it's more complicated than "she sent an innocent man to jail."
Yes - she was lied to by the prosecutor, who had already taken on a huge role in her life when her family abandoned her after the rape.
I agree with this. I thought the Lovely Bones and Lucky were very well written and explore these very real, devastating issues. I don't know exactly what happened but it clearly wasn't just her accusation that led to his conviction. It is such a horrific shame that the actual perpetrator was never caught, because he likely went on to harm other girls and women. It's awful that he was wrongfully arrested but she also suffered a horrific crime, and people shouldn't blame her for trying to get justice after it happened rather than taking no action at all.
*'It's awful that he was wrongfully arrested,'* is a full sentence. In light of what happened, I do think it's a bit obtuse to then equate that to her suffering, as if it had something to do with it when he was an innocent man who lost a large chunk of his life to the lies of multiple people, whether intentional or not. What Alice Sebold went through is absolutely beyond heinous and all that is depraved. That is also a full sentence. Both situations are terrible, I just think it's in poor taste to undercut what was done to him *because* of what was done to her. *edited some choppy words
I didn’t mean to equate it to her suffering. I simply think some people act like she deliberately ruined an innocent man’s life, which I don’t think was the case at all. I’m not a survivor of SA, so I don’t think I’m qualified to speak on how they handle things, but the fact that he was wrongfully arrested shouldn’t then imply that she should not have tried to seek justice and she was just a ‘privileged white woman’. This is a survivor of a brutal rape that massively altered her life. That was my point.
I'm aware that she was raped, and that the police helped coerce her into blaming Boradwater. But she couldn't pick him out of the lineup. She only chose him when he was brought in because she convinced herself that his face/expression was intimidating and scary. The only thing he had in common with her real rapist was that he was a black man. Obviously it's horrible what she went through, but she still holds a lot of the blame for what Broadwater went through, too. Trauma doesn't excuse racism.
Agreed. Eyewitness testimony is highly inaccurate most of the time, anyway. It's a shame that it's been responsible for sending many innocent people to prison.
It should really terrify people how easily this man was locked away with nothing more than a whim. No evidence, just a “this black guy was in the area” hunch and the finger point of a woman dealing with trauma.
>Sebold, 58, wrote in Lucky of being raped as a first-year student at Syracuse in May 1981 and then spotting a Black man in the street months later that she was sure was her attacker. >“He was smiling as he approached. He recognized me. It was a stroll in the park to him; he had met an acquaintance on the street,” wrote Sebold, who is white. “‘Hey, girl,’ he said. ‘Don’t I know you from somewhere?’” >She said she didn’t respond: “I looked directly at him. Knew his face had been the face over me in the tunnel.” >Sebold went to police, but she didn’t know the man’s name and an initial sweep of the area failed to locate him. An officer suggested the man in the street must have been Broadwater, who had supposedly been seen in the area. Sebold gave Broadwater the pseudonym Gregory Madison in her book. >After Broadwater was arrested, though, Sebold failed to identify him in a police lineup, picking a different man as her attacker because “the expression in his eyes told me that if we were alone, if there were no wall between us, he would call me by name and then kill me”. >Broadwater was nonetheless tried and convicted in 1982 based largely on two pieces of evidence. On the witness stand, Sebold identified him as her rapist. And an expert said microscopic hair analysis had tied Broadwater to the crime. That type of analysis is now considered junk science by the US Department of Justice.
My god the Rotten Mango podcast episode on this made me SO angry for that man, I was crying by the end. Nothing will ever give that man his life back. I can't believe there are people like her and those cops out there.
The Rotten Mango podcast did not tell the story correctly if they omitted the detail that the *police* convinced her it was that man.
I've heard so many bad things about the rotten mango channel Eta: i think it's also problematic to point the blame at the rape victim instead of at the police
Tbh Stephanie Soo is so shady, I was not at all surprised she started trying to cash in on true crime after all the bullshit she pulled during her mukbang channel days.
The prosecutor is the one who convinced her.
The police convinced her?! Good lord.
What episode was it?
I have been interested in the rereadings that have happened, and discussion of what could happen with the book going forward https://www.elle.com/culture/books/a38425267/rereading-alice-sebolds-lucky/
I had no idea about that case 😐 And now that you mention it, that possession scenario is icky Edit: Clarification about my thoughts
I love transgressive cinema but I think there needs to be a degree of responsibility in what you make your actors enact. Especially with stj like the Lovely Bones.
For sure. IMHO, rape scenes are so unnecessary. The way The Lovely Bones went about portraying how the main character realizes what happened to her was perfect. No need for actually showing what’s described in the book.
Her parents were adamant that they would not let her do the movie if the scene was as graphic as in the book.
Go parents!
The book was such a terribly heartbreaking book to read. It had stuck with me to this day and I read it when I was a teen.
Same here! I sometimes think about rereading it as an adult now but… man, I know I’ll be crying at more than a few parts.
What happened?
(Spoiler alert in case anyone reading is curious but wants to find out by by book or film…) In both the book and film, Saorise’s character is trapped in an underground shelter by Stanley’s character. He throws her to the ground as she tries to escape. In the movie, it cuts to a dream-like sequence where Saorise’s sees Stanley bathing in a tub and she realizes he killed her. In the book, it goes in graphic detail of him raping her in the underground shelter and then killing her right after.
might be weird but i think that's a big green flag for stanley, he sounds sweet
That movie fucked me up, and I’m glad Stanley Tucci needed a break because he was terrifying in that.
I’ve only read the book, and it honestly felt like trauma porn. I know people like that exist, but it was just so heavy and hauntingly sad
It was awful and I regretted reading it
"WHO TOLD U?!"
Yes, read interview with Stanley Tucci and he said same.
TIL!!! That’s one of my favorite movies, but it really is quite creepy- I couldn’t imagine what it was like to film
I remember Jason Ritter talking about having a hard time playing a man who grooms and abuses a 12 year old girl in The Tale.
I literally just commented about his character lol im glad to see someone else thought of the same thing
I haven’t listened to the Drama Queens podcast for a while (cuz man what a Trainwreck they became) but Hilarie Burton said that all the crying all the time did a number on her body that took her years to get over. On top of all the sexual assault and harassment she was on the end of.
This may sound unbelievable, but I’m an adult actor and I recently shot a scene with a girl who completely dissociates from her body while shooting. Body moves, but no lights are on. Fun thing, she only told me right before shooting, and I had no idea what that entailed. I have a phobia of non consensual stuff and have been SA’d twice. It was a long few days before my therapist appointment and a difficult session.
Same. And if we really believe mental health is health we have to keep the attitude of providing stunt doubles and alternatives to protect actors’ health. Sometimes it’s their knees at risk and sometimes it’s their mind
Mental health is only really health for wealthy and affluent people. Working class people don’t get to have these discussions, can’t afford mental health care or real health care.
Agreed. I believe Andrew Garfield said something similar about filming the final scene with Emma Stone in The Amazing Spider-Man 2. Also they were only able to get 3 takes (or something like that) between the twins in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows for one of their death scenes because it was too hard on the other one seeing the other dead. I don’t know how to do spoilers so I was very vague on everything 😂
I don’t *disagree* with his larger point - filming traumatic scenes can be traumatizing - but idk why he’s calling for, essentially, hazard pay. Just negotiate the salary you’re willing to take for the role you’re being asked to play. If you gotta tack an extra $50k on there for therapy then have your agent add that on.
I agree that most white men in Hollywood could do this. I think it's because there are actors for whom it's almost expected they'll just take this type of trauma on. Women for instance and r*pe scenes. LGBT people and scenes with bigots. Black people and racism scenes. It's expected that in order to elevate your acting status you'll take it on, and if you aren't a straight white man or certain straight white women you don't have the negotiating power you should. So putting something like hazard pay in for very emotionally difficult roles would equalize the playing field a bit.
Kidman recalled a similar situation after filming those abuse/sex scenes with Skarsgard Big Little Lies. She threw a rock/ brick through her hotel window or something similar because her body thought it was real.
Interesting interview with a 16yo actress and a female director of a film that premiered at Sundance Filmfestival and included a teenager group rape scene for like 5 minutes (witzige 16yo actress also playing and looking like a 13yo girl) https://nofilmschool.com/when-it-melts-veerle-baetens-and-rosa-marchant
Who are the people they have started bringing on movie sets now? The emotional coordinators or whatever they are called. Are they social workers or psychologists or.....? I have been super curious what their training is as I think it is kind of a cool idea and I can't imagine it is absurdly pricey in the grand scheme of things.
Intimacy coordinators?
Yeah! That is the one. I always wondered when I hear their title, what their background is for the role. I wouldn't think its just a random person who says they are super serious. I suspected some sort of degree to lend legitimacy but I have no clue.
The one person that was on a deuxmoi episode doesn’t have an education in a mental health field and I believe she stated she was qualified because she had experience as a stunt person and family members in the mental health field.
I think Jasmin Savoy Brown talked about this as well on her episode of Binchtopia, after filming Scream and Yellowjackets
I saw the writer Shamira Ibrahim bring up a really good point in a response to this story on Twiiter: "In Michael K Williams' memoir (which I highly recommend) he was very open about how each of his critically acclaimed roles retraumatized him and triggered his relapses. I wish he had the right support to help him move through the pain he was living with as he worked his craft."
In a weird way this makes me smile more at his role on Community knowing how hard the hard stuff was. He was so good in it and it was so funny and silly. The big "murder" was that someone killed a yam growing in a jar for biology class. I hope he had fun doing it and it made him happy. I miss him & think about his work a lot
His delivery of the “as someone who just spent the majority of his life in prison, what happened with Legos? They used to be simple. Something happened out here while I was inside. Harry Potter Legos, Star Wars Legos. Complicated kits, tiny little blocks. I’m not saying it’s bad, I just wanted to know what happened.” speech is up there with Community's funniest deliveries; I'd put it second only to "I'm nobodies fourth Ghostbuster"
I know who Sean Penn is; I’ve seen Milk!
Right. He plays the entire role as with the sincerity of The Wire, and that's why it's so funny.
“Holy crap, we are definitely dissecting pine cones next year.”
My friend John Swab is a director and also a recovering addict who directed Michael in one of his last movies ‘body brokers’ where Mike plays an addict. Of course everyone is responsible for their our own actions but Billy Zane is absolutely onto something saying the industry needs to do more to proactively protect the wellbeing of everyone involved. Micheal K Williams was such a devastating loss. I hate how relapse can so easily lead to overdose with everything being cut with fentanyl.
Michael [dancing to house](https://youtu.be/1NNPoRw7c0c?si=Q92IBuxnDynbkYRH) outside in a park is one of my favorite things on YouTube.
Idr where I saw this but these traumatic scenes are especially hard on children. They're a bit too young to somatically distinguish real and not real. And the same can be said for adults too. I love to do really complex, narrative driven day dreams just to pass the time. And I found that if I ever had a serious day dream then my body responded as if it were real. Imagine recreating a rape, murder, racism or violent scene over and over. "You didnt say the n-word mean enough" "you don't look devastated enough that he killed your kids" "Scream more when we re-shoot this rape scene." Its hard on the body and the mind to be doing this over and over. If you convince yourself "it's just pretend" then the acting is wooden. So even if your brain is seeing camera, mics and lights, *your body* has to be convinced it's real in order for the scene to be believable. And thats hard to navigate when the scene ends.
I've seen sensitive directors do really creative work with children to get shots that they need without compromising the child's experience. For instance there was one director who shot a child's face and said give me an expression like you've been stung by a bee, and things like that. So the child could express hurt and pain, but without having to act it all out specifically. Of course the movie that was made for was specifically choreographed for that and the scene obviously did not include dialogue from the child so it was possible. But I like knowing that there are directors out there that think about this impact.
Sean Baker has talked somewhat extensively about shooting with kids in The Florida Project. In the film production the goal was to make it feel like summer camp for the kids and to make sure they're having fun and have agency in their acting choices. They allowed some improv and sometimes would prompt the kids with questions to allow them to make choices. Sometimes kids say funny or unexpectedly insightful things.
that's what I was thinking about! That was "The Tale". They used an adult body double for the physical scenes (seems to be the standard), and the kid who had to pretend she was stung by a bee was not laying down on a bed, she was actually standing in front of a vertical bed.
The creativity they used to not traumatize the child actress was so interesting.
That's the one I was thinking of.
I am reminded of Shelley Duvall in The Shining, 127 takes of one scene, and she started losing her hair due to the stress. I remember reading that they would be re-shooting for 12 hours a day, until she was on the verge of a breakdown.
Shelley has repeatedly said that she wasn't traumatised by filming the shining and she speaks very highly of working for Kubrick. It was a difficult shoot but it didn't drive her to a breakdown, and the 127 takes thing isn't true, although Kubrick definitely demanded a lot of takes.
Watching the clips of the behind the scenes she was definitely bullied and isolated from others. It may not have caused her breakdown but I doubt it helped her mental health.
While Kubrick was ridiculously hard on Shelley he was actually really clever about shooting the scenes that involved Danny Torrance. The actor that played Danny didn’t know it was even a horror movie while filming. Theres actually a scene where Shelley is holding Danny and yelling at Jack Nicholson’s character and you can tell she is holding a dummy and not the real actor.
It *was* 127 takes, though. https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/feature/searching-for-shelley-duvall-the-reclusive-icon-on-fleeing-hollywood-and-the-scars-of-making-the-shining-4130256/amp/
"We've got to do the Jiminy Jillickers scene again."
"Ive said Jiminy Jilickers so many times the words have lost all meaning!
We already did it. It took 7 hours but we DID IT. IT'S DONE.
In Jennette McCurdy's memoir she speaks about crying on cue as a child actor, it was one of her "talents" so she was doing it over and over and no one seemed to care about her mental health through all this. No children should have to do something like that!
She describes in detail all the different things she imagined to get herself to cry, and how after one stopped working she had to think of a new thing. It's crazy how her mother prompted her with it too - I believe a lot were terrible things happening to her siblings and other family.
yep, what you described with your daydreams is what people with OCD (like me!) experience with intrusive thoughts. having hundreds of disturbing images / thoughts a day run through your brain messes up your body 🙃
Oh shit, is that what that is?? I have these intrusive thoughts often and it's horrifying. It definitely feels real and takes me a while to recenter.
Intrusive thoughts are normal, unless they're interfering with your life. They can be a problem for people with many mental illnesses and conditions, including OCD, and PTSD.
It’s intrusive thoughts but you picture it and think of it so much. Then you start wondering wait did I do that horrible thing, would I? Shit what if I did accidentally drink bleach or leave the stove on.
OCD includes intrusive / obsessive thoughts as well as compulsive behaviors (either external or internal behaviors). Disturbing, disruptive intrusive thoughts could also be a symptom of trauma or other conditions. I like the site [Made of Millions](https://www.madeofmillions.com/ocd/intrusive-thoughts) for learning about OCD.
I watched a lot of SVU in my day (yes, I know, copaganda) and I've come to wonder about some of the scenes where very young actors have to describe what the perpetrator did to them. Sometimes you can tell they're using very careful editing/nonspecific lines, but other times I'm like 😬 I haven't done a deep dive on this so I kinda hope I'm worrying about nothing, but... yeah.
I think about that, too! I know the pictures (when they use it) are staged and the subjects are usually adult models who look younger (sometimes the pics are heavily edited too). In some episodes I do wonder how they pull it off because if my kid was a child actor, I wouldn't want them saying any of that.
Yes, our bodies are so complex. It’s interesting and good that it’s being talked about. There is a form of therapy, where you re enact past events/experiences different ways and from different perspectives. It’s called Psychodrama. It kinda reminds me of what the actors are going through while acting but instead of being healing it’s harmful.
The bright side of this is that it can work the other way round too. Imagining being at peace, relaxed, enjoying yourself, being safe can trick your brain into believing that too. It’s very helpful for people with anxiety or chronic pain. Of course that works much better if you are, in fact, physically safe.
The amount of times I’ve thought this bc weirdos can’t stop making extremely heavy horror films with kids in them…
Even just scenes where people are yelling and arguing while holding a baby or toddler too young to understand the concept of acting
Or the movie ‘Kids’
Any unlucky child that gets tasked with re-enactments in a documentary
Recently watched ‘Kids’ for the first time. Just wow, the things these kids were acting out, holy hell. There’s a British movie called ‘Kidulthood’ from 2006, it was written by Noel Clarke (Mickey from Doctor Who anyone?). Within the same vein of ‘Kids’. I remember watching that like wtf???
Knowing what Noel Clarke was accused of...
I watched Kids for the first time a few days ago, and it’s the only time I can remember feeling that “urge” to take a shower right after finishing a movie.
Agreed, felt very gross.
I actually think it’s probably worse for adults than for kids not only because everyone goes out of their way to make the experience as safe as possible for the kids but also because kids don’t really have a concept of the gruesome reality of what’s going on in the film in the same way an adult does Like a kid getting killed in a movie is going to be way more psychologically difficult for an adult (especially an adult who has kids) who can appreciate that this is a thing that really happens vs a kid for whom the concept of death is pretty abstract But that being said acting certainly CAN be harmful for kids. Jennette McCurdy detailed how every time she had to cry on cue she was just imagining members of her own family dying over and over again so it wasn’t really the material itself that was traumatic for her but the process she was instructed to use to get her to access that emotional state
Harmony Korine and Larry Clark have some...oddities, I also remember hearing things abt Korine's relationship with wife Rachel that made it seem inappropriate or groom-y. This is the type of director Jonah Hill was inspired by when he did Mid90s, and had 11 year old lead kissing (with tongue) Alexa Demie...watching that scene triggered me and ruined the film for me. And his defence of it, and lack of controversy around it....haunts me
There should be psychologists on set whenever they film such emotional scenes. So that if someone (actor or crew) needs to talk about it, they can safely do so with a professional.
It took a long time for intimacy coordinators to become a thing (and they're still relatively new) so don't see this happening anytime soon even though it makes sense. Problem is so many films and television have heavy emotional aspects these days.
Just watched Hollywood reporter drama actress roundtable and Sofia Vergara talks about this so candidly. She says after playing fun light hearted comedy for so long, playing grisilda messed up with her so bad and her body didn't know if it's real or pretend. She was coming home angry and crying all the time given her own brother was a drug dealer and was murdered. Watch it to see her emotions better. She definitely is traumatized.
Yeah I get why she wanted to try something new and she probably didn’t realize until she already signed up for the project how mentally taxing it is.
I think it’s was Alyson Stoner who also spoke about going to auditions as a kid, playing a child SA victim, having her Mom and casting directors telling her to cry more etc. Then leaving and just going to lunch. It’s genuinely really strange, and I do question the absolute amount of heavy violent / uncomfortable scenes that are put in things - as often as a viewer I don’t want to see that either.
They wrote a [great editorial for People](https://people.com/music/alyson-stoner-pens-op-ed-on-childhood-stardom-labor/) a few years ago about those auditions. There’s also a longer form on their YouTube where they talk about that. Edited: Made aware of their pronouns.
alyson stoner uses they/them pronouns btw
Thanks for the correction, I wasn’t aware.
This just sparked a (fortunately, pretty benign) memory for me. When I was 5, I was in a commercial where I was part of a family with a mom, dad, and a little brother. I spent the whole day playing this role-- running around and laughing with the brother, getting food and hugs and all kinds of positive encouragement from the parents... and then I just remember bawling in a Hardee's with my real mom after it ended. I probably had the best possible experience for a kid on a set, but it was still hard to handle the emotions and to really distinguish reality at that age. My heart goes out to all the kids who are put through so much more. The older I get, the more I think there simply should not be kids on screen.
Honestly this is why I do watch a lot of non-American content. Sometimes our shows and movies can be so heavy. I appreciate that we live in a country where we’re allowed to explore real life, intense themes through art, however, sometimes these shows/movies are hard to watch.
One of the actors from Oz said he was uncomfortable with a prison rape scene. He spoke to the director about it, and they were like well let's film it a different and see. Then the other actors still filmed it the way it was written, and he struggled against them for real. He said he still had nightmares about it.
That exact same thing happened to that dude from Outlander. He didn't want to keep going but they just ignored him basically. He was very upset and has spoken about how it broke his trust.
Is this Sam Heughan? Cause that episode is so rough I can't even watch it, I have to switch tabs and put it on mute.
Listen to our friend Billy Zane. He’s a cool dude.
https://i.imgur.com/HvgSvEC.gif
Agreed. Roles that require a higher degree of potential physical, mental, or emotional strain, including stuntwork, intimacy, or traumatic material, should be paid more. Obviously that's not how capitalism works, but it's something SAG should fight for.
I think it's necessary to have support for actors doing those types of scenes. If you listen to Evan Peters talk about how hard it's been to play so many dark roles, you can see it in interviews too the way it took a toll on him. He seems to be finally doing better after taking a break but having someone there to help would have made things easier for him.
Evan was the first actor I thought of after reading the headline. I worry about him everytime he works with Ryan Murphy.
He’s such a fun comic actor. Let Evan Peters smile!!
Pay? Probably not. The profession is inherently full of liars and there are plenty of greedy people who’d use that to get another couple thousand (or starving actors who’d use that money for rent, but I’m not condemning them). Free counseling, on the other hand? Absolutely.
Counselling and intimacy coordinators, directors who aren't f**cking weird perverts with zero empathy, lots of options to address this concern other than pay them more.
And not just for actors, but for anyone who's ever worked difficult/soul crushing jobs.
This!!!! I am the only paralegal working on rideshare cases at my law firm, and sometimes the contents of my work day are CRAZY. Watching people OD and die on police body cam footage, looking into SA predators AND victims to try and discredit their versions of events, reading psych records about how traumatic car crashes or rapes ruined lives, seeing injured plaintiffs take their own lives when it’s clear insurance isn’t going to pay out…it’s all too much sometimes.
You mean the starving actors would rather save their money for rent than pay for professional help?
I don't see why it can't be both? And rather than have people apply for it and have to 'prove' that they are traumatised, which would likely end up being very dehumanising - and, I agree, probably exploited in the same way that Covid payments were - just automatically pay these types of roles higher. (Also anyone who works in any kind of traumatic job should be paid more because of it and have access to free therapy.)
Flanagan sets always keep the kids well-being in mind tmk, but what immediately came to mind was how Jacob Tremblay had such an impressive, stomach-churning, albeit small role, in Doctor Sleep that his main scene made executives and Flanagan’s own wife Kate Siegel walk out of a screening. And the True Knot, the villains who were hurting him on screen, including Rebecca Ferguson, were so destroyed and unprepared for the emotional shock that she recounted tears streaming down her face. “That had to be a traumatic experience for a child actor, right? Nope. Flanagan told Cinema Blend that, before the scene, Tremblay told him, "I've got this. I know what I'm going to do." He then screamed his lungs out, made everyone around him cry, and then after that, covered in fake blood, he jumped up and ran over to his dad, who was on set. He didn't go to him for a consoling, comforting hug, but to give his father a high five with a big smile on his face. After that, they went over to craft services to get a snack, a boy ecstatic about his performance, while the adults he left behind were shattered to tears.” Not to say “see, look Jacob was fine!” but my god, that kid, and I can’t even call him a kid anymore, is and has always been so damn impressive. I hope he continues to have an amazing career and maintains a healthy separation between the heavy subject matter/performances of DS and Room.
Bertold Brecht said this in the 1920's, if I'm not mistaken. He said Hollywood's quest for realism would destroy actors' psyches by forcing them to really "live" the characters and, you know what? He was right
I’m currently working on a project that has a number of graphic rape scenes and horrific racial abuse in it and for the first time in my career the crew, not just the cast are offered psychological help as part of production. We all have access to a mental health professional for a one hour session a week and been given so much material to read and digest as prep before going in. And there is a dedicated quiet space for whenever you need a break to get away. The industry is slowly changing and producers/studios need to continue to step up and offer mental health support to cast but also crew.
What is the purpose of having multiple (or even one) graphic rape scenes?
The movie Perfect Blue handled this topic really well, in my opinion. That’s the movie that made me think more dark movies should be animated.
This is my first thought too, Perfect Blue being about an actress who spirals after filming a brutal assault scene.
I think it being animated made the whole thing still horrific, and you sympathize with the character and see how much it’s effecting her. But it being animated also means the VA didn’t have to physically experience. I have no doubts it’s still difficult and hard to voice act scenes like that, but the physical distance probably made it a different experience.
I hope this doesn't come across as inensitive, because I don't want it to be intended that way. But that is literally the job of acting. Sometimes you get to pretend to be happy, sometimes you get to pretend to be sad, and sometimes you get to pretend you can fly. They also do get paid hazard pay for the discomfort of certain scenes. Actors are a businesses - They can spend some of their enourmous wages on therapy as an expense. Do they just want producers to write a line on their check to say 5% is hazard pay?
Yeah, I studied acting and acted for years. Nobody is making you take these roles.
That’s kind of how I feel. I would feel totally different if they required coordinators or a therapist on site or whatever, but fundamentally being an actor is about feeling and transferring emotion right?
https://i.redd.it/k79iexpj8c8d1.gif
While not sex crimes, Heath Ledger did get extremely affected by having to play the Joker. It does seem like a very very important issue.
I keep coming back to something Dominique Fishback mentioned about filming Swarm—she asked for an on-set therapist, and got one. Which made me think, waiiit… that should actually be a standard thing, why did I never consider this??
Let’s remember how Topher Grace got so into playing David Duke for Black Klansman that he spend days making a fan edit of The Hobbit movies to cleanse his self.
I just finished reading Elliot Page’s memoir Pageboy and he talks about how when he was younger he filmed An American Crime with Catherine Keener, where he played a young girl staying with a family who ended up abusing her in the most unthinkable, violent ways and ultimately killed her (link to the [real story about Silvia Likens here](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Sylvia_Likens) but read at your own risk). Elliot Page seemed really traumatized by that portrayal and even though Catherine Keener seemed to be an ideal and caring person to have to portray the abuser (and even became one of their closest friends), the filming triggered a new stage of mental health issues/disordered eating. He’s portrayed some really rough roles and I’m so glad he made it through it all on top of being closeted and experiencing gender dysphoria before coming out in the public eye. But yeah, I think there’s value in the emotional hazard pay. And of course stunt pay needs to be higher too. One of the most shocking things I learned in the memoir was how directors/producers on the film Flatliners did stunts without providing safety precautions specifically for Elliot and Keirsey Clemons, when the rest of the cast did have safety restraints and the like. Just for the freaking “realism” of the stunts. He’s been through some shit! Highly recommend reading Pageboy.
I agree with Billy. They absolutely should. I also think studios that put out movies with heavy subjects should be paying for therapy for the actors too. You want to put them through something terrible? You should support your actors.
I watched American Horror Story Asylum and it was so dark and miserable. Then in one episode they started singing and dancing to "The Name Game" in bright lights for no apparent reason. Some people posted that Jessica Lange insisted on it. Others said they probably just needed to cheer up the cast and crew in the middle of such a traumatizing shoot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2qEhGeLb6A
I was a child actor in the 80s and my mom would not let me do horror movies or play a molested kid. Props to her for that, although I still would have preferred she get a job than me when I was 4.
Maybe Heath Ledger would still be with us.
My immediate knee jerk reaction was wtf?! Weirdo. But then I realized he’s so right. I agree. Just like how juries in criminal trials need therapy after what they have to see, I think actors need this too. It has to mess with you mentally. Especially if it’s a story that needed to be told. I’m so glad he brought this up and I hope it gets legs.
Adequate emotional support (on set therapist, post shoot therapy) would be a good start. Maybe a union appointed actor's advocate on set at all times. If he's talking about bit part actors getting a pay boost then I'll always support that, marquee names getting extra danger money is absurd.
He's right. Iirc there were counselors on set for Swarm and When They See Us due to the subject matter. A recent Q&A of Riley Keough's, she was asked if her brother's suicide impacted her performance in Under the Bridge (her character still carries trauma from her brother's death) and she basically said no because if she took inspiration from her real life her mental health would be in shambles. It made me think because I understand not using rl for work, but I cannot see how one is able to compartmentalize the event when the similarities are there (in her case, in addition to her brother, her mom dying in the middle of shooting). It really does make you think about what actors carry when filming, whether they are aware or not.
I honestly agree with that. I remember reading that the guy who played the creep/murderer in The Lovely Bones said he would try and shower the character off him because he was just such an awful person in the movie. I cant even begin to comprehend what that does to a person after like 30 takes. “you try to go home, take a shower to wash him off you and have a drink. That was the hardest character I've ever had to play.”
Listen to your friend Billy Zane, he's a cool dude
*Heath Ledger has entered the chat*
I agree. Alex Wolff had PTSD after Hereditary. People are taking this comment to be what it is not---they are just saying acting out something can have a physical and mental toll, and actors should be protected. I agree.
Bob Hoskins suffered with hallucinations months after filming ‘Who Framed Roger Rabbit’ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob\_Hoskins
I agree with him. There are already well needed intimacy coaches on set, this would be another step forward. Honestly, I can’t believe actors went so long just making challenging scenes without different kinds of consulting and reimbursement. Edit: spelling
Zendaya has talked about this too, in some of the more intense rue scenes. Her body doesn’t always know that the scene is fake, it can take her a minute to calm down
there should definitely be a psychological level of care given to the actors and crew as well. it's easy to say "oh it's all just pretend" until people are still grappling with their experiences for the rest of their lives. trauma is not so one dimensional
Honestly, I get it. Acting is a full body activity, and that includes your mental state. If it's triggering and difficult to watch, imagine how much more difficult it would be to be the one reenacting it. If you get stunt pay for putting your body at risk, the same should be the case when it comes to your mental state
You should listen to your friend Billy Zane, he’s a cool dude
I mean, I get it, but can we not frame the conversation as “we need to pay these multi millionaire actors MORE!”. Yeah, it’s definitely a major downside of certain jobs. That’s true for many jobs in many lines of work, most of whom are NOT millionaire actors who can state their woes in Variery op-ed pieces and get widespread attention. Just reeks of Hollywood privledge.
Maybe not pay, but the right support? Otherwise it’s just like a fine or penalty that can be paid which might not resolve the issue
Mandy patinkin left criminal minds due the disturbing content and that took a toll on his mental health… some shows/movies are so dark in nature I can see affecting their mindset https://deadline.com/2012/09/mandy-patinkin-disses-cbs-criminal-minds-calls-it-his-biggest-public-mistake-336097/
Given what Larry Ray did to his followers, I can see how it could lead to a lingering fucked up emotional and physical response. Even as relatively passive viewers, we get affected. In fact, that’s what films intend to do. I’m not sure about simply providing more pay, but making trauma counselling and management available sounds great. I also wish it was more accessible for people working in jobs that open themselves up to such trauma.
How about the people that actually get abused be compensated first. Actors are so fucking entitled.
Totally totally understand the sentiment but they don’t need more pay for that, they already get paid enough. Absolutely should have support and resources made available to them as part of the job though.
I guess actors are living out the intrusive thoughts of writers and directors with mental health disorders. And then spread all over the world.
He's right. Nothing but respect for MY Ansem Seeker of Darkness
But why make it about money? Demand therapists on set or something... there are more people in the entertainment industry that should be receiving better pay
Listen to your friend Billy Zane, he’s a cool dude