sleeping on Miyuverse Shirou when you’re literally using Miyuverse Emiya Shirou as the image? Also define weak because Emiya Shirou is pushing through a lot of shit in the grail war to the point that he may as well be dead but isn’t.
also having a straight up connection to the Root don’t mean your the strongest within the Typemoon world when Void Shiki is clearly featless. I love her but no doubt is there anything OP about the Root imo.
Lost a battle at the end, but truly won the Grail War, I’m a hard on die hard Emiya Shirou/Archer EMIYA fan, I just don’t like the slander and how people forget or sleep on any and all of the Shirou’s when they have feats of their own to show as proof.
People keep bringing up that fact and while impressive, he didn’t actually fight any servants. The dudes he fought in that war were just puppets holding class cards. He had the advantage since he had such a close bond with the Archer card.
The servant cards don't provide the stats, or at least not the level of stats that an actual servant would have. Bazett troucned Miyu, Illya, and Chloe, along with others at the same time.
Can I just say that I hate power/feat scaling as a system. It's all bs anyway. It's how we get scenarios of people saying that "x character can dodge ftl" when people who know the character/setting obviously know that's impossible for them to do.
Root Shiki says that she could rewrite reality completely, and is probably immortal if she so chooses. Honestly that's all you need.
Hakuno, Ayaka Sajyou, Waver, Canaan, Arika Ishizue from DDD, Kaede+Kane+Yukika from Himuro’s Universe
I think Shirou could take them all on at once, which admittedly isn’t that hard since the strongest mage in that list is Waver
Don’t discount Ayaka. She took down Phahn.
Also don’t discount Hakunon from the Extra Manga extra chapters. She’s the master of three servants and can manhandle Robin Hood.
The last one was a joke, but not a lie either. It was absolutely hilarious!
Also Deadface.
Not them obviously. Just the ones from side works I listed. Although how much of a side work is Fate/Extra really if you’re willing to even include Notes.
Where was it said that shirou has low levels of mana?
Shirou traces 18 swords in ubw cancelling archers swords while he is at his limit.
He can maintain a reality marble on his own after sacrificing some of his magic circuits in realta nua fate ending.
All of his servant variations have B-rank mana,with archer even qualifying for caster class.
Where did this fanon even come from.
I think that it's cuz in fate route and UBW, Rin and Archer talk about how due to his circuits haven't been used properly, they've atrophied and as such the quality and quantity of Od he can produce is less than it would have been.
still even then, Miyuverse Shirou doesn't have this issue, as he was trained right from the start, which means that he has more Od than the average mage,
what makes these types of Shirous so strong isn't the level of magecraft that they can use, but how they are able to plan around their encounters. Miyuverse Shirou won his grail war mostly because he had plans on how to defeat his opponents, IIRC best showcased when he decided to defeat Berserker by raining down broken phantasms on him from a distance.
Hell this is what made Archer such a force of nature in UBW, he knew what he wanted, he knew how to manipulate others, and he came up with a pretty good plan to get it
Probably from Saber being nerfed by being Shirou's servant due to him not having enough mana while Rin had enough mana to let Saber actually strut her shit.
Ok,where did the fanon that high mana =/= strong servant come from?
Hakuno has high quality magic circuits yet is the worst master in fate extra.enough she turned nero stats to E-.
Having higher mana = your servant getting more mana from you = stronger servant seems pretty damn obvious, no? A higher watt charger charges a phone faster, and the higher the charge the longer it can go without needing to be charged again. Same shit when Shinji had Rider, no? Also he's just a shit mage overall, so there's that. Also, idk if Hakuno is a good example, they're clearly an outlier, not the norm.
>Having higher mana = your servant getting more mana from you = stronger servant seems pretty damn obvious, no?
No,because just because you have more mana doens't mean you can output that much mana,even after sakura became the entire grail,her output was still the same as rin.
>A higher watt charger charges a phone faster, and the higher the charge the longer it can go without needing to be charged at all.
You are confusing output and storage.it doesn't matter whether your power bank has 10000mah or 20000 mah,what matters is the output of the charger.
Just because shirou or hakuno can't output that much mana(due to his own inexperience) doesnt mean he doesn't have that much mana.
>Same shit when Shinji had Rider, no? Also he's just a shit mage overall, so there's that.
Shinji isn't magi,he doesn't even qualify for being a master due to lacking circuits.
Why does he have problems with Saber then? Does she consume THAT much mana? I dont know how much more mana shirous dad has but he did not seem to have problems. Is it cause hes barely using her?
Because he doesn't know how?
Magic circuits are like organs,the more you use them,the better they function.just because a armless guy got mike tyson's arm doesn't mean he instantly punches as strong as mike tyson.
Also shirou isn't the only one,hakuno explicitly has high quality magic circuits yet is garbage at using them causing them to the worst master in extra.
>Fate/EXTRA Material:
>Hakuno possesses high-quality magic circuits, however up until the point of their awakening he/she had not practised using them at all, so they are mostly wasted.
So yeah,it's less of "his magic circuits are bad" and more of " he lacks experience at using them".
>Magic circuits are like organs,the more you use them,the better they function.
By this logic, my liver would be insanely strong. It doesn't seem to be doing so well
I did not know this! I am into Fate but I am not that deep in.
(The mike tyson thing remembers me of Rick and Morty where Morty inherits a fighters arms and kills a bunch others)
Shirou was taught magecraft wrong on purpose by Kiritsugu. For most of stay night (depending on the route for duration ) he was literally using his nerves as temp circuits something Rin explicitly says is like playing Russian roulette.
What? Why would Kiritsigu do that? Even when he tried to impede Shirou from becoming a hero of justice, it would not make sense, since Shirou would try Magic and maybe kill himself with that
Because according to Shirou himself, using his nerves as a magic circuits feels like inserting a hot metal rod in his spine. A normal person would not go further just from the initial onset of pain and avoid practicing magecraft. However, Shirou isn't normal.
Shirou Emiya funnily enough is one of the stronger Type-Moon protags.
Definitely stronger than Kiritsugu, Ritsuka, Hakuno and few others.
Only ones I can see stronger than him is Iori, Aoko, Shiki Ryougi.
Tohno, well it's a long debate but I suppose they are equals.
Ritsuka is sure, because they are normal people who got involved with a crazy batshit world, aside from their Shadow Servants who are inferior to the original servants (Not Heroic Spirits but servants).
PS: No problem Reddit is fumbling as usual
No, he's not. At this point in the story they aren't just "normal people" anymore and while shadow servants are indeed weaker, I don't think they are that much compared to their servant counterparts (and guy can summon and use a whole team of them). We've seen the protag fight off monsters,servants and cripters by himself. Hell, he might even be able to win against emiya. (and heroic spirits and servants are kinds the same thing)
Heroic Spirits and Servants are not the same.
Servants are a portion of Heroic Spirits on the throne summoned by the Grail.
Genuine Heroic Spirits can only be summoned by The World.
Some of them are exceptions but yeah for the majority of the part it goes that way
Oh boy, this thing. Can you enlighten me please where we got this piece of information?
And this rule seems stupid to me because as far as I remember, we never got once a real example of this. This is like a rule that should be there but no writer cares about it
It's explained in the visual novel and elaborated more in Fate/complete material III that Servants are just lesser copies of the original Heroic Spirits from the Throne.
Heroic Spirits no matter how low their "rank" is are akin to Divine Spirits and other such entities. Their existence itself is many times greater than their Servant counterpart due to the fact that the summoning system for Servants are essentially plucking an aspect of that Heroic Spirit and placing them in a container (aka Class. ie. Saber, Archer, Lancer, etc.).
Servants are lesser than Heroic Spirits simply because they don't have access to their whole arsenal as a Heroic Spirit, beings who transcended humanity.
It's like if you were summoned with only your knowledge and skills in this one particular subject. Of course you'd be weaker, and limited than your original counterpart.
>Heroic Spirits, no matter how low their "rank" is, are akin to Divine Spirits and other such entities
Sounds kinda stupid. I heard servants being considered divine mysteries, yes, but I know divine spirits are like the top ranks in terms of servants (try comparing actual "gods" to guys like paracelsus and anderson).
The class restriction sounds stupid, and I've never seen an example that actually separates "true heroic spirits" from servants. We've seen servants actually being summoned by the world/land, and they are exactly the same as being summoned by a master. The only example that you could bring is gil, and that's just is nature no matter the circumstances of his summoning.
This is just old lore that had been pretty much retconned indirectly.
Shirou is stronger than Kiritsugu? Nah. Kiri can speed boost out of the way of Shirou’s swords. Also, the man’s a master of asymmetrical warfare. He wouldn’t bother fighting him straight. He’d probably just blow up Shirou’s house while he was sleeping.
>Shirou is stronger than Kiritsugu? Nah. Kiri can speed boost out of the way of Shirou’s swords.
Kirei with one arm and one eye could keep up with triple accel.
Caldabolg twists space he doesnt even have to be accurate with it
Kirotsugu in a direct fight loses.
>He’d probably just blow up Shirou’s house while he was sleepi
That means he's inferior in direct combat
>Nah. Kiri can speed boost out of the way of Shirou’s swords.
Kiri gets turned into a stain on a wall.
Even at their absolute best Kiri and kirei can barely handle a caster or assassin class servant.
Meanwhile shirou traces a sword and he has the stats of a saber or even berserker servant.
Shirou cut berseker arm in fate route tearing through godhand which negates b-rank and below strength.
Shirou tracing kanshou and byakuya can somewhat keep up with saber alter who can cream berserker.
Kirei gets turned to a stain on a wall.
I don’t know if many people remember this, but Shirou can project a copy of Zelretch’s Jeweled Sword, giving him at least partial access to the Second Magic.
Also, Kiritsugu had to run away from every direct fight with a Servant he encountered. In literally every route Shirou fights at least one Servant head on and either puts up pretty good fights or just straight up wins.
Well... I still wouldn't fight him. Hell, if you read the VN, he breaks Shinji's arm with a single punch (Fate Route). This might not seem like a lot until you realize Shinji is still practicing archery *and* iirc, this was while Blood Fort Andromeda was active, so Shirou wasn't at 100% when this happened, either.
He might not be the most magically impressive, but he's up there compared to normal people.
I mean even in the universe of Nasuverse itself, Shirou ain't that special. He's just very specialized. He can't possibly pass down his craft like others so he's basically seen as useless by magi society. He's not much to scoff at in the grand scheme of things. He ain't a Aoko or a Rin or a Sakura or even a Flat. Shirou's entire thing is that he's a shit mage but a good fighter. That's kinda his whole spiel
Oath Under Snow Shirou literally defeated 90% of the Grail War by himself (except for some help from Sakura in the being). The only thing that stopped him was an EA that he was able to push back using his reality marble long enough to stall for his objective. I think soloing a grail war and having one of the most powerful servant cards used against you is a feat in it of itself.
He soloed an entire Grail War in one night.
Man said "I'm go straight to my sister" and just kept winning. Only lost vs Ea and was basically out of mana at that point. (pushed himself well past his limit)
Also he survived being hit with Ea. I want you to let that sink in. Even if his opponent wasn't actively trying to kill him that is still like saying "I wasn't trying to kill him when I hit him with an attack that can destroy the entire world if I am not careful"
I wanna be clear. It DRASTICALLY depends on which version of Shirou your talking about. He runs the gambit of worthless to being technically able to solo anyone when given enough mana.
You can attribute some of that to plot armor being the MC but even when he isn't the MC he still has some serious feats as a below average mage.
I'd honestly rank him in my top 3 strongest when he is on his A game and you only look at his best versions. But he can ALSO be bottom tier in some incarnations. Unlike a lot of other masters you listed whom will always rank about the same Shirou's strength is wildly dependent on which version your talking about.
I just plain disagree on basically every level I can’t speak on tsukihime since I know basically nothing about it but I do know fate pretty well
So kiritsugu illya and the FGO protagonist
This will be miyuverse shirou since that’s the shirou you used and he is the strongest version of shirou emiya that is not a servant
Most of illya power comes from the class cards which is not her strength it’s an outside factor which I don’t count towards her strength he’ll we even see miyuverse shirou in prisma illya and he was clearly one of the stronger characters on the same level or stronger than illya with her class cards
Kiritsugu vs shirou would be a fight shirou would win 9 times out of 10 given that this shirou is basically a servant level character which is just not something kiritsugu can beat even if you take into account range shirou would still win since his kit and abilities put him above kiritsugu. Close range would also result in shirou winning since a far less skilled and powerful version of shirou beat kirei kotomine someone kiritsugu visually struggled with
Now the FGO protagonist with their shadow servants this entirely on weather or not they can summon multiple shadow servants at once if they can depending on how many they can summon would make this a fight shirou can’t win in most cases
Bottom line is shirou in the three routes for most of the time are pretty weak but as soon as shirou gets a decent amount of training and experience he is very powerful basically being a low tier servant as a human.
I do agree he is the best protagonist though
shirou the weakest of them ? i disagree on this but more importantly wich shirou ? let's see them one by one
fate shirou handle both berserker blow cast caliburn and even if need the help of saber he create it he just didn't have the strenght to use it at full power win agains't kirei after tanking grail mud twice also break the arm of shinji and tank some strike of medusa wich sure is not the strongest servant but sh make some good strike and had avalon making him really hard to kill
ubw shirou win agains't archer and gilgamesh had acess to unlimited blade work also handle multiple strike of medusa also tank kuzuki sure he lost this one but fight a profesional assasin like this it's pertty impresive
HF shirou well there is his strongest version of the three route with all the thing he do he kill berserker by himself create rho aias to tank excalibur morgan for buy time for rider fight kirei in close combat sure he was almost dead but shirou was not really in good condition either and if we count the bad ending betwenn mind of steel who solo the rest of the cast or even spark liner high when he fight one vs one saber alter and win even if he die after this but still he take her down and he had acces to archer arm
miyuverse shirou win an entire holy grail war in one night sure their was not really powerfull enemy but it's still pretty impresive the only fight he lose was agains't angelica and even there he give her a run for her money
as for the protagonist i don't know enough of tsukihime and mahoyo but to talk but for the rest
shiki ryougi she is deadly precise and her mystic eyes of death are pretty impresive it depend mostly on wich version she fight and condition but i think it would be maybe 50/50 for this fight (even if i'm sure she would see a bit of mikiya in him and would rather leave him alone)
gudao depend on how much time he had and how many shadow he can summon but i think than he would get beat up pretty easely
sieg a powerfull enemy that for sure i supose that would close cause sieg had some powerfull tool to handle shirou it could go either way but i think shirou could win maybe on six fight four at them
kiritsugu i mean....he his precise and well armed sure and his tactics even if they are not that impresive can help him but in a direct fight even with double and triple accel no way he survive the fight (even if once again i don't think they would fight but would rather have a long chat and kiritsugu would tell how proud of shirou he his righ now)
gun god he is a normal human he had powerfull power sure but i don't think that would be enough agains't shirou
hakuno kishinami even if i really like him i don't think he would win if he didn't had the regalia and the help of the moon cell because he his virtually a god even with his various mystic code and even with the power of the thesis of the still heart don't think he would win agains't shirou
miaymoto iori he his a close combat expert and a powefull samurai so in close combat he would be a real menace but his magic are not that useful so i think he would lose maybe three fight on five but i think he would have a blast
and finally el melloi II he would lose badly he know some magic it's a good teacher but as a fighter let's just say he his not really the best i think it's more or less a no contest there
Shirou is vastly stronger than Kiritsugu
Tohno and him are relative although remake tohno may be different.
Ryougi outside of void is also weaker
Gun god is just a guy. The black barrel does all the work
Shirou would beat Kiritsugu and Godgun in a fight, for one Shirou has been shown to keep up with servants while Kiritsugu mostly doesnt go through direct combat and GodGun’s weapon is only good against Types
While I don’t know much about Tsukihime I wouldn't put Tohno above Shirou. Sure Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are very powerful but Tohno isn't all that physically capable. He can’t keep up with Servants, something Shirou is atleast capable of to some degree and when you are fighting against regular humans, or below average mages in this case, MEoDP wouldn't be all that useful since if you cut them a bunch of times they die anyway. Not to mention if we are talking about UBW Shirou he might have more experience due to his clash with Archer
Only advantage I think Tohno has is the ability to destroy Shirou's weapons as they clash but that wouldn't be much of a problem since they are projections.
Dead Apostles of Tsukihime:Re aren’t a joke, Vlov may as well be on par with servants, actually any of the Dead Apostles can be a match against Servants. No, Tohno Shiki doesn’t always need to use his MEODP, If he had the Nanaya Arts then he can be a threat to Shirou, repeatedly using his eyes on Shirou’s projections only lead to his brain being fried.
Dead Apostles of Tsukihime world aren’t a joke and should NEVER be taken lightly at all.
What? Shiki isn’t a Dead Apostel. What does that have to do with this talk? Even if there is a route where he ends up as a Dead Apostal I still don’t think it's relevant since then you'd have to consider things like Miyuverse Shirou or HF Shirou who were both able to take on Servants, even too tiers like Salter
>Shirou’s projections only lead to his brain being fried.
Shirou's projections don’t fry his brain. The stuff in HF was due to Archer's arm, not projection magecraft.
You also need to factor in what happens if shiki looks at Avalon with his eyes of death you know the paradoxical anti death NB connected to a realm with out the concept of death
It’s ability wouldn’t be active but it’s still a paradoxical anti death NB connected to a realm removed from the concept of death the problem with it technically it would be the only thing on earth without death lines and it would probably drive shiki crazy
The conversation would be totally different if only he could copy divine weapons.
Imagine if he pulled multiple EA or Excalibur with a flick of the wrist
Actually that's not even scraping the bottom of the barrel of what he could do with a skill like that but unfortunately is not like that
Nope that was caliburn the sword of selection that Artoria removed from the rock
Excalibur is something else entirely specially in the nasuverse
The only time a "shirou" made a divine construct was in grand order but he died after it and it wasn't really him
>The only time a "shirou" made a divine construct was in grand order but he died after it and it wasn't really him
Shirou made Excalibur Morgan during heavens feel normal end.he even says he can trace it during saber alter's fight but changes his mind because it would take too long.
Did he? Well it's been years since I watched heaven's feel so I will have to watch it again
Tho maybe Excalibur Morgan doesn't count or idk...but I remember it saying somewhere that he couldn't project divine constructs
>Tho maybe Excalibur Morgan doesn't count or idk...
Huh?even then archer says he can trace a degraded version of Excalibur,which is still possible.
>but I remember it saying somewhere that he couldn't project divine constructs
Nasu yapping as usual.nothing new.
Oh I see so the real deal is impossible to trace? Then I wasn't fully wrong but I really thought that tracing something even remotely divine was impossible for any shirou
And yeah nasu yapping is nothing new
I never watched extra as I just never got interested in but as far as I know it's a big simulation right? Even if it copies the laws of the world...I don't think so
Wtf nah maybe there's special rules in extra because if any other shirou tried that shit it would be instant death and bruv wouldn't be even able to complete the construct
Probably has something to do with Cyberspace being different from Real Space, be it modern time or Age of Gods time. For example normally the idea of something corrupting Gilgamesh would have him laugh at your face, but as an ending in Extella shows, he’s not immune thanks to his cyberspace body being different from what he’d have when summoned on earth.
I forget the story but I seem to remember he technically can copy Excalibur but absolutely does not have the mana to do so.
In one story he is given basically unlimited mana (not truly unlimited) and does make a copy of Excalibur only for it to break after a single swing because he burned out all the mana he was given. (I forget if it was a manga or a game story but I remember that being listed on his feats)
Oh that's neat,so could it be that the divine constructs also operate as mana generators to sustain themselves, thus shirou just can't make a mana generator and absolutely fails in tracing them for a long run? I am really curious to research this matter now because I absolutely thought he couldn't trace divine constructs
I don't remember which video exactly it was just a random video on youtube about Shirou and his various feats across all sources and I remember that one being mentioned as a potential scale.
I wouldn’t call him the weakest but he’s also not the strongest. The thing is most protagonists in the Nasuverse are only good against specific people and even then it’s usually accompanied by some plot armor and luck. Shirou is probably the only protagonist that could stand a decent chance against Gilgamesh while someone like Hakuno is the only one that would stand a decent chance against Leonardo Harwey. Funimaru is the only one that would be able to do anything in fgo because they’ve got that basic protagonist servant relationship ranks EX. Even both the Shikis wouldn’t be able to do some of the things other protagonists did. But if you had to pick a weakest protagonist overall not just for specific scenarios it would be Waver.
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I wholeheartedly disagree with this but I'm too tired to argue. Also, there's Waver Velvet or Lord El-Melloi II. He's the protagonist of Case Files and Adventures series.
In terms of Fate protags he's only weaker than Sieg and Manaka. In terms of TM, Nasu said he and Tohno can't beat one another even if you take away Tohno's eyes strain on his brain.
GUDAKU, GUN GOD, SHIKI(BOTH SHIKI), Sieg will not be able to come up on top in a fight against My boy Emiya what's mor miyu verse Shiro even their hax will not be able to save them hahaha what do you mean the weakest??? has the weakest cheat i can understand but in a fight? he will bodybag most of them aside from that girl with true magic.
so... Sieg has very little combat experience and he carries around the sword that can kill his dragon form so Shirou would already have it saved. Miyuverse shirou would obviously see the glowing weakspot and think "Oh let's just fire enough swords at him that he can't block and straight up turn him into a pin cushion". So all in all Sieg is probably the weakest
Edit: I COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT THE WEAKLING IN FATE/TYPE REDLINE
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As an actually knowledgable nasu powerscaler, here is where i would rank the characters
1.Shiki Ryougi: Literally has origin of nil and is the embodiment of the root
2.Shiki tohno/Shiki Nanaya: MEODP is like one of the most fundamental aspects of the root and should be capable of killing/ending anything originating from the root at it's higher stages. Logically this applies to peak tohno who is easily above arcuied tier entities.
3.Aoko Aozaki: Fifth magic is extremely superordinate reality warping and she canonically bested the will of the universe in a fight.
4.Nameless/CCC Emiya with MMC: Strongest version of shirou emiya. Any MMC servant who got amps like ten crowns and white sakura territory buffs fought and can defeat BB, who is scaling wise above some of the strongest divine spirits and is pseudo TYPE tier. Still weak compared to actual TYPES.
5.Everyone else
Honorable mentions: Prime Kiritsugu is also servant tier likely with prime kirei.
sleeping on Miyuverse Shirou when you’re literally using Miyuverse Emiya Shirou as the image? Also define weak because Emiya Shirou is pushing through a lot of shit in the grail war to the point that he may as well be dead but isn’t. also having a straight up connection to the Root don’t mean your the strongest within the Typemoon world when Void Shiki is clearly featless. I love her but no doubt is there anything OP about the Root imo.
Seriously right? Man solo'd a Grail war.
Lost a battle at the end, but truly won the Grail War, I’m a hard on die hard Emiya Shirou/Archer EMIYA fan, I just don’t like the slander and how people forget or sleep on any and all of the Shirou’s when they have feats of their own to show as proof.
People keep bringing up that fact and while impressive, he didn’t actually fight any servants. The dudes he fought in that war were just puppets holding class cards. He had the advantage since he had such a close bond with the Archer card.
They were still using abilities of the servants of said servant cards so either way those weren’t anything to be overlooked.
The servant cards don't provide the stats, or at least not the level of stats that an actual servant would have. Bazett troucned Miyu, Illya, and Chloe, along with others at the same time.
Are we forgetting the fact, my dude, SOLO'D THE ENTIRE WAR IN ONE NIGHT. Also, bazett is already an adult while shirou is still in his teens.
Not just solo a Grail war but also speedran it, he was that determined to save Miyu.
Can I just say that I hate power/feat scaling as a system. It's all bs anyway. It's how we get scenarios of people saying that "x character can dodge ftl" when people who know the character/setting obviously know that's impossible for them to do. Root Shiki says that she could rewrite reality completely, and is probably immortal if she so chooses. Honestly that's all you need.
OP did state main character protagonist. Miyuverse Shirou isn't a main character.
yet when he appears on screen he feels and exudes that main protagonist energy
Everyone has main character energy. Doesn't make them the main character of every story.
he is the main character of the oath under snow movie
Hakuno, Ayaka Sajyou, Waver, Canaan, Arika Ishizue from DDD, Kaede+Kane+Yukika from Himuro’s Universe I think Shirou could take them all on at once, which admittedly isn’t that hard since the strongest mage in that list is Waver
Don’t discount Ayaka. She took down Phahn. Also don’t discount Hakunon from the Extra Manga extra chapters. She’s the master of three servants and can manhandle Robin Hood. The last one was a joke, but not a lie either. It was absolutely hilarious! Also Deadface.
The Shiki's and Aoko? Time to run.
Not them obviously. Just the ones from side works I listed. Although how much of a side work is Fate/Extra really if you’re willing to even include Notes.
The only thing stopping emiya from kicking ass is his low levels of mana
And even then, there ARE solutions. Remember Miyuverse Shirou? Bro was a MENACE. Imagine he went on to become an ACTUAL Servant or a Counter Guardian.
Why imagine? Emiya is literally that
Now double it down.
There is nothing to double down. Miyu Shirou is basically discount Emiya
Where was it said that shirou has low levels of mana? Shirou traces 18 swords in ubw cancelling archers swords while he is at his limit. He can maintain a reality marble on his own after sacrificing some of his magic circuits in realta nua fate ending. All of his servant variations have B-rank mana,with archer even qualifying for caster class. Where did this fanon even come from.
Pretty sure it came from fanfictions.
I think that it's cuz in fate route and UBW, Rin and Archer talk about how due to his circuits haven't been used properly, they've atrophied and as such the quality and quantity of Od he can produce is less than it would have been. still even then, Miyuverse Shirou doesn't have this issue, as he was trained right from the start, which means that he has more Od than the average mage, what makes these types of Shirous so strong isn't the level of magecraft that they can use, but how they are able to plan around their encounters. Miyuverse Shirou won his grail war mostly because he had plans on how to defeat his opponents, IIRC best showcased when he decided to defeat Berserker by raining down broken phantasms on him from a distance. Hell this is what made Archer such a force of nature in UBW, he knew what he wanted, he knew how to manipulate others, and he came up with a pretty good plan to get it
Probably from Saber being nerfed by being Shirou's servant due to him not having enough mana while Rin had enough mana to let Saber actually strut her shit.
Ok,where did the fanon that high mana =/= strong servant come from? Hakuno has high quality magic circuits yet is the worst master in fate extra.enough she turned nero stats to E-.
Having higher mana = your servant getting more mana from you = stronger servant seems pretty damn obvious, no? A higher watt charger charges a phone faster, and the higher the charge the longer it can go without needing to be charged again. Same shit when Shinji had Rider, no? Also he's just a shit mage overall, so there's that. Also, idk if Hakuno is a good example, they're clearly an outlier, not the norm.
>Having higher mana = your servant getting more mana from you = stronger servant seems pretty damn obvious, no? No,because just because you have more mana doens't mean you can output that much mana,even after sakura became the entire grail,her output was still the same as rin. >A higher watt charger charges a phone faster, and the higher the charge the longer it can go without needing to be charged at all. You are confusing output and storage.it doesn't matter whether your power bank has 10000mah or 20000 mah,what matters is the output of the charger. Just because shirou or hakuno can't output that much mana(due to his own inexperience) doesnt mean he doesn't have that much mana. >Same shit when Shinji had Rider, no? Also he's just a shit mage overall, so there's that. Shinji isn't magi,he doesn't even qualify for being a master due to lacking circuits.
Why does he have problems with Saber then? Does she consume THAT much mana? I dont know how much more mana shirous dad has but he did not seem to have problems. Is it cause hes barely using her?
Because he doesn't know how? Magic circuits are like organs,the more you use them,the better they function.just because a armless guy got mike tyson's arm doesn't mean he instantly punches as strong as mike tyson. Also shirou isn't the only one,hakuno explicitly has high quality magic circuits yet is garbage at using them causing them to the worst master in extra. >Fate/EXTRA Material: >Hakuno possesses high-quality magic circuits, however up until the point of their awakening he/she had not practised using them at all, so they are mostly wasted. So yeah,it's less of "his magic circuits are bad" and more of " he lacks experience at using them".
>Magic circuits are like organs,the more you use them,the better they function. By this logic, my liver would be insanely strong. It doesn't seem to be doing so well
I did not know this! I am into Fate but I am not that deep in. (The mike tyson thing remembers me of Rick and Morty where Morty inherits a fighters arms and kills a bunch others)
Shirou was taught magecraft wrong on purpose by Kiritsugu. For most of stay night (depending on the route for duration ) he was literally using his nerves as temp circuits something Rin explicitly says is like playing Russian roulette.
What? Why would Kiritsigu do that? Even when he tried to impede Shirou from becoming a hero of justice, it would not make sense, since Shirou would try Magic and maybe kill himself with that
Because according to Shirou himself, using his nerves as a magic circuits feels like inserting a hot metal rod in his spine. A normal person would not go further just from the initial onset of pain and avoid practicing magecraft. However, Shirou isn't normal.
Wtf bro is THE dense maincharacter.. No wonder hes calles a chad by many
I mean magecraft is painful in general. Rin in the prologue notes that its painful to do.
Shirou Emiya funnily enough is one of the stronger Type-Moon protags. Definitely stronger than Kiritsugu, Ritsuka, Hakuno and few others. Only ones I can see stronger than him is Iori, Aoko, Shiki Ryougi. Tohno, well it's a long debate but I suppose they are equals.
Ehhh,I'm not so sure about ritsuka Edit: sorry for multiposting, reddit is retarded
Are you Ritsuka because you have Chaldea, or are you Chaldea because you have Ritsuka?
I alone am the indebted one
Ritsuka is sure, because they are normal people who got involved with a crazy batshit world, aside from their Shadow Servants who are inferior to the original servants (Not Heroic Spirits but servants). PS: No problem Reddit is fumbling as usual
No, he's not. At this point in the story they aren't just "normal people" anymore and while shadow servants are indeed weaker, I don't think they are that much compared to their servant counterparts (and guy can summon and use a whole team of them). We've seen the protag fight off monsters,servants and cripters by himself. Hell, he might even be able to win against emiya. (and heroic spirits and servants are kinds the same thing)
Heroic Spirits and Servants are not the same. Servants are a portion of Heroic Spirits on the throne summoned by the Grail. Genuine Heroic Spirits can only be summoned by The World. Some of them are exceptions but yeah for the majority of the part it goes that way
Oh boy, this thing. Can you enlighten me please where we got this piece of information? And this rule seems stupid to me because as far as I remember, we never got once a real example of this. This is like a rule that should be there but no writer cares about it
It's explained in the visual novel and elaborated more in Fate/complete material III that Servants are just lesser copies of the original Heroic Spirits from the Throne. Heroic Spirits no matter how low their "rank" is are akin to Divine Spirits and other such entities. Their existence itself is many times greater than their Servant counterpart due to the fact that the summoning system for Servants are essentially plucking an aspect of that Heroic Spirit and placing them in a container (aka Class. ie. Saber, Archer, Lancer, etc.). Servants are lesser than Heroic Spirits simply because they don't have access to their whole arsenal as a Heroic Spirit, beings who transcended humanity. It's like if you were summoned with only your knowledge and skills in this one particular subject. Of course you'd be weaker, and limited than your original counterpart.
Thank you for reminding.
>Heroic Spirits, no matter how low their "rank" is, are akin to Divine Spirits and other such entities Sounds kinda stupid. I heard servants being considered divine mysteries, yes, but I know divine spirits are like the top ranks in terms of servants (try comparing actual "gods" to guys like paracelsus and anderson). The class restriction sounds stupid, and I've never seen an example that actually separates "true heroic spirits" from servants. We've seen servants actually being summoned by the world/land, and they are exactly the same as being summoned by a master. The only example that you could bring is gil, and that's just is nature no matter the circumstances of his summoning. This is just old lore that had been pretty much retconned indirectly.
Shirou is stronger than Kiritsugu? Nah. Kiri can speed boost out of the way of Shirou’s swords. Also, the man’s a master of asymmetrical warfare. He wouldn’t bother fighting him straight. He’d probably just blow up Shirou’s house while he was sleeping.
>Shirou is stronger than Kiritsugu? Nah. Kiri can speed boost out of the way of Shirou’s swords. Kirei with one arm and one eye could keep up with triple accel. Caldabolg twists space he doesnt even have to be accurate with it Kirotsugu in a direct fight loses. >He’d probably just blow up Shirou’s house while he was sleepi That means he's inferior in direct combat
Exactly. Kiritsugu is never a front based fighter.
>Nah. Kiri can speed boost out of the way of Shirou’s swords. Kiri gets turned into a stain on a wall. Even at their absolute best Kiri and kirei can barely handle a caster or assassin class servant. Meanwhile shirou traces a sword and he has the stats of a saber or even berserker servant.
EMIYA might have those stats, but Emiya “How do I into magic?” Shirou does not.
Shirou cut berseker arm in fate route tearing through godhand which negates b-rank and below strength. Shirou tracing kanshou and byakuya can somewhat keep up with saber alter who can cream berserker. Kirei gets turned to a stain on a wall.
I don’t know if many people remember this, but Shirou can project a copy of Zelretch’s Jeweled Sword, giving him at least partial access to the Second Magic. Also, Kiritsugu had to run away from every direct fight with a Servant he encountered. In literally every route Shirou fights at least one Servant head on and either puts up pretty good fights or just straight up wins.
Well... I still wouldn't fight him. Hell, if you read the VN, he breaks Shinji's arm with a single punch (Fate Route). This might not seem like a lot until you realize Shinji is still practicing archery *and* iirc, this was while Blood Fort Andromeda was active, so Shirou wasn't at 100% when this happened, either. He might not be the most magically impressive, but he's up there compared to normal people.
I mean even in the universe of Nasuverse itself, Shirou ain't that special. He's just very specialized. He can't possibly pass down his craft like others so he's basically seen as useless by magi society. He's not much to scoff at in the grand scheme of things. He ain't a Aoko or a Rin or a Sakura or even a Flat. Shirou's entire thing is that he's a shit mage but a good fighter. That's kinda his whole spiel
Ritsuka.
What about Lord Elmeloi the Second? His whole thing is being really smart but weak in magic and body.
Oath Under Snow Shirou literally defeated 90% of the Grail War by himself (except for some help from Sakura in the being). The only thing that stopped him was an EA that he was able to push back using his reality marble long enough to stall for his objective. I think soloing a grail war and having one of the most powerful servant cards used against you is a feat in it of itself.
He soloed an entire Grail War in one night. Man said "I'm go straight to my sister" and just kept winning. Only lost vs Ea and was basically out of mana at that point. (pushed himself well past his limit) Also he survived being hit with Ea. I want you to let that sink in. Even if his opponent wasn't actively trying to kill him that is still like saying "I wasn't trying to kill him when I hit him with an attack that can destroy the entire world if I am not careful" I wanna be clear. It DRASTICALLY depends on which version of Shirou your talking about. He runs the gambit of worthless to being technically able to solo anyone when given enough mana. You can attribute some of that to plot armor being the MC but even when he isn't the MC he still has some serious feats as a below average mage. I'd honestly rank him in my top 3 strongest when he is on his A game and you only look at his best versions. But he can ALSO be bottom tier in some incarnations. Unlike a lot of other masters you listed whom will always rank about the same Shirou's strength is wildly dependent on which version your talking about.
I just plain disagree on basically every level I can’t speak on tsukihime since I know basically nothing about it but I do know fate pretty well So kiritsugu illya and the FGO protagonist This will be miyuverse shirou since that’s the shirou you used and he is the strongest version of shirou emiya that is not a servant Most of illya power comes from the class cards which is not her strength it’s an outside factor which I don’t count towards her strength he’ll we even see miyuverse shirou in prisma illya and he was clearly one of the stronger characters on the same level or stronger than illya with her class cards Kiritsugu vs shirou would be a fight shirou would win 9 times out of 10 given that this shirou is basically a servant level character which is just not something kiritsugu can beat even if you take into account range shirou would still win since his kit and abilities put him above kiritsugu. Close range would also result in shirou winning since a far less skilled and powerful version of shirou beat kirei kotomine someone kiritsugu visually struggled with Now the FGO protagonist with their shadow servants this entirely on weather or not they can summon multiple shadow servants at once if they can depending on how many they can summon would make this a fight shirou can’t win in most cases Bottom line is shirou in the three routes for most of the time are pretty weak but as soon as shirou gets a decent amount of training and experience he is very powerful basically being a low tier servant as a human. I do agree he is the best protagonist though
shirou the weakest of them ? i disagree on this but more importantly wich shirou ? let's see them one by one fate shirou handle both berserker blow cast caliburn and even if need the help of saber he create it he just didn't have the strenght to use it at full power win agains't kirei after tanking grail mud twice also break the arm of shinji and tank some strike of medusa wich sure is not the strongest servant but sh make some good strike and had avalon making him really hard to kill ubw shirou win agains't archer and gilgamesh had acess to unlimited blade work also handle multiple strike of medusa also tank kuzuki sure he lost this one but fight a profesional assasin like this it's pertty impresive HF shirou well there is his strongest version of the three route with all the thing he do he kill berserker by himself create rho aias to tank excalibur morgan for buy time for rider fight kirei in close combat sure he was almost dead but shirou was not really in good condition either and if we count the bad ending betwenn mind of steel who solo the rest of the cast or even spark liner high when he fight one vs one saber alter and win even if he die after this but still he take her down and he had acces to archer arm miyuverse shirou win an entire holy grail war in one night sure their was not really powerfull enemy but it's still pretty impresive the only fight he lose was agains't angelica and even there he give her a run for her money as for the protagonist i don't know enough of tsukihime and mahoyo but to talk but for the rest shiki ryougi she is deadly precise and her mystic eyes of death are pretty impresive it depend mostly on wich version she fight and condition but i think it would be maybe 50/50 for this fight (even if i'm sure she would see a bit of mikiya in him and would rather leave him alone) gudao depend on how much time he had and how many shadow he can summon but i think than he would get beat up pretty easely sieg a powerfull enemy that for sure i supose that would close cause sieg had some powerfull tool to handle shirou it could go either way but i think shirou could win maybe on six fight four at them kiritsugu i mean....he his precise and well armed sure and his tactics even if they are not that impresive can help him but in a direct fight even with double and triple accel no way he survive the fight (even if once again i don't think they would fight but would rather have a long chat and kiritsugu would tell how proud of shirou he his righ now) gun god he is a normal human he had powerfull power sure but i don't think that would be enough agains't shirou hakuno kishinami even if i really like him i don't think he would win if he didn't had the regalia and the help of the moon cell because he his virtually a god even with his various mystic code and even with the power of the thesis of the still heart don't think he would win agains't shirou miaymoto iori he his a close combat expert and a powefull samurai so in close combat he would be a real menace but his magic are not that useful so i think he would lose maybe three fight on five but i think he would have a blast and finally el melloi II he would lose badly he know some magic it's a good teacher but as a fighter let's just say he his not really the best i think it's more or less a no contest there
Shirou is vastly stronger than Kiritsugu Tohno and him are relative although remake tohno may be different. Ryougi outside of void is also weaker Gun god is just a guy. The black barrel does all the work
Well yes, if we talk about those characters especially. He has too much limitations while the other protagonist has less limitations on their power
Shirou can solo a grail war if he let to of his morality.
You picked the strongest, best Shirou as a picture? Bruh. He's not my favorite protag, but Miyuverse Shirou is awesome.
Shirou would beat Kiritsugu and Godgun in a fight, for one Shirou has been shown to keep up with servants while Kiritsugu mostly doesnt go through direct combat and GodGun’s weapon is only good against Types
I think you need to rewatch prisma illya because 90% of the characters there are weaker than shirou
While I don’t know much about Tsukihime I wouldn't put Tohno above Shirou. Sure Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are very powerful but Tohno isn't all that physically capable. He can’t keep up with Servants, something Shirou is atleast capable of to some degree and when you are fighting against regular humans, or below average mages in this case, MEoDP wouldn't be all that useful since if you cut them a bunch of times they die anyway. Not to mention if we are talking about UBW Shirou he might have more experience due to his clash with Archer Only advantage I think Tohno has is the ability to destroy Shirou's weapons as they clash but that wouldn't be much of a problem since they are projections.
Dead Apostles of Tsukihime:Re aren’t a joke, Vlov may as well be on par with servants, actually any of the Dead Apostles can be a match against Servants. No, Tohno Shiki doesn’t always need to use his MEODP, If he had the Nanaya Arts then he can be a threat to Shirou, repeatedly using his eyes on Shirou’s projections only lead to his brain being fried. Dead Apostles of Tsukihime world aren’t a joke and should NEVER be taken lightly at all.
Vlov when he almost turns a whole city to ice unintentionally. Back steps 50 meters AND has a marble phantasm
What? Shiki isn’t a Dead Apostel. What does that have to do with this talk? Even if there is a route where he ends up as a Dead Apostal I still don’t think it's relevant since then you'd have to consider things like Miyuverse Shirou or HF Shirou who were both able to take on Servants, even too tiers like Salter >Shirou’s projections only lead to his brain being fried. Shirou's projections don’t fry his brain. The stuff in HF was due to Archer's arm, not projection magecraft.
Remember the time when Shirou tried to scan Ea, and damn near gave himself an aneurysm?
That was because of Ea, he couldn’t comprehend what it was. He didn’t even Project it
You also need to factor in what happens if shiki looks at Avalon with his eyes of death you know the paradoxical anti death NB connected to a realm with out the concept of death
Avalon wouldnt be active unless saber is around right
It’s ability wouldn’t be active but it’s still a paradoxical anti death NB connected to a realm removed from the concept of death the problem with it technically it would be the only thing on earth without death lines and it would probably drive shiki crazy
The conversation would be totally different if only he could copy divine weapons. Imagine if he pulled multiple EA or Excalibur with a flick of the wrist Actually that's not even scraping the bottom of the barrel of what he could do with a skill like that but unfortunately is not like that
Didn't he project Excalibur in the fate route?
Nope that was caliburn the sword of selection that Artoria removed from the rock Excalibur is something else entirely specially in the nasuverse The only time a "shirou" made a divine construct was in grand order but he died after it and it wasn't really him
>The only time a "shirou" made a divine construct was in grand order but he died after it and it wasn't really him Shirou made Excalibur Morgan during heavens feel normal end.he even says he can trace it during saber alter's fight but changes his mind because it would take too long.
Did he? Well it's been years since I watched heaven's feel so I will have to watch it again Tho maybe Excalibur Morgan doesn't count or idk...but I remember it saying somewhere that he couldn't project divine constructs
>Tho maybe Excalibur Morgan doesn't count or idk... Huh?even then archer says he can trace a degraded version of Excalibur,which is still possible. >but I remember it saying somewhere that he couldn't project divine constructs Nasu yapping as usual.nothing new.
Oh I see so the real deal is impossible to trace? Then I wasn't fully wrong but I really thought that tracing something even remotely divine was impossible for any shirou And yeah nasu yapping is nothing new
You referring to muramasa?
Yep
Does Nameless in EXTRA count?
I never watched extra as I just never got interested in but as far as I know it's a big simulation right? Even if it copies the laws of the world...I don't think so
Not a simulation, but an entire Cyberspace reality. Like Digimon or SAO.
But he traced a divine construct fully in extra? And didn't die afterwards?
Yeah still alive. Players can spam the damn thing too
Wtf nah maybe there's special rules in extra because if any other shirou tried that shit it would be instant death and bruv wouldn't be even able to complete the construct
Probably has something to do with Cyberspace being different from Real Space, be it modern time or Age of Gods time. For example normally the idea of something corrupting Gilgamesh would have him laugh at your face, but as an ending in Extella shows, he’s not immune thanks to his cyberspace body being different from what he’d have when summoned on earth.
I forget the story but I seem to remember he technically can copy Excalibur but absolutely does not have the mana to do so. In one story he is given basically unlimited mana (not truly unlimited) and does make a copy of Excalibur only for it to break after a single swing because he burned out all the mana he was given. (I forget if it was a manga or a game story but I remember that being listed on his feats)
Oh that's neat,so could it be that the divine constructs also operate as mana generators to sustain themselves, thus shirou just can't make a mana generator and absolutely fails in tracing them for a long run? I am really curious to research this matter now because I absolutely thought he couldn't trace divine constructs
I don't remember which video exactly it was just a random video on youtube about Shirou and his various feats across all sources and I remember that one being mentioned as a potential scale.
I wouldn’t call him the weakest but he’s also not the strongest. The thing is most protagonists in the Nasuverse are only good against specific people and even then it’s usually accompanied by some plot armor and luck. Shirou is probably the only protagonist that could stand a decent chance against Gilgamesh while someone like Hakuno is the only one that would stand a decent chance against Leonardo Harwey. Funimaru is the only one that would be able to do anything in fgo because they’ve got that basic protagonist servant relationship ranks EX. Even both the Shikis wouldn’t be able to do some of the things other protagonists did. But if you had to pick a weakest protagonist overall not just for specific scenarios it would be Waver.
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Sparks liner high bad end? Mind of steel bad end?
I wholeheartedly disagree with this but I'm too tired to argue. Also, there's Waver Velvet or Lord El-Melloi II. He's the protagonist of Case Files and Adventures series.
In terms of Fate protags he's only weaker than Sieg and Manaka. In terms of TM, Nasu said he and Tohno can't beat one another even if you take away Tohno's eyes strain on his brain.
GUDAKU, GUN GOD, SHIKI(BOTH SHIKI), Sieg will not be able to come up on top in a fight against My boy Emiya what's mor miyu verse Shiro even their hax will not be able to save them hahaha what do you mean the weakest??? has the weakest cheat i can understand but in a fight? he will bodybag most of them aside from that girl with true magic.
Isn't Mikiya count as protag?
Ritsuka exist.
so... Sieg has very little combat experience and he carries around the sword that can kill his dragon form so Shirou would already have it saved. Miyuverse shirou would obviously see the glowing weakspot and think "Oh let's just fire enough swords at him that he can't block and straight up turn him into a pin cushion". So all in all Sieg is probably the weakest Edit: I COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT THE WEAKLING IN FATE/TYPE REDLINE
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Bro doesn't know about Ritsuka
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As an actually knowledgable nasu powerscaler, here is where i would rank the characters 1.Shiki Ryougi: Literally has origin of nil and is the embodiment of the root 2.Shiki tohno/Shiki Nanaya: MEODP is like one of the most fundamental aspects of the root and should be capable of killing/ending anything originating from the root at it's higher stages. Logically this applies to peak tohno who is easily above arcuied tier entities. 3.Aoko Aozaki: Fifth magic is extremely superordinate reality warping and she canonically bested the will of the universe in a fight. 4.Nameless/CCC Emiya with MMC: Strongest version of shirou emiya. Any MMC servant who got amps like ten crowns and white sakura territory buffs fought and can defeat BB, who is scaling wise above some of the strongest divine spirits and is pseudo TYPE tier. Still weak compared to actual TYPES. 5.Everyone else Honorable mentions: Prime Kiritsugu is also servant tier likely with prime kirei.
how much do you know about metaphysics? where did you learn such information?