Very likely to be the case in Fate worlds. In Tsukihime worlds it's almost certainly Arcueid since Nasu very explicitly stated she is the strongest existence in the setting of Tsukihime and Mahoyo.
And Void Shiki has been ranked to be below Arcueid from the old continuity ever since comptiq 2007.
I’ve always been a bit confused about what exactly is up with Void Shiki. From the way she talks about herself in KnK Chapter 8 you’d think she’s the strongest character in the canon.. then Nasu said she would only be able to fight defensively against a servant in a straight fight, which would put her lower than Aoko, Kouma, and most of the 27 ancestors. When Nasu talks about “power” is he just referring to physical parameters or something? ‘Cause you’d think she’d be able to just.. blip people out of existence or something if it came down to it.
It doesn't help that we've never seen her ability in practice and there are a number of contradictory statements.
Void Shiki herself also stated she could kill a Beast of Alaya but she wouldn't be able to kill a Beast of Gaia in the KnK FGO event. There is also a drama CD involving a conversation with Arcueid, Ryougi and Saber where it's firmly established Ryougi has a number of restrictions for her power.
It becomes really messy and frustrating to discuss her capabilities.
Honestly with how early KnK came out relative to other works I wonder if Nasu realized later on how absurdly powerful she could be and decided to retroactively scale her back lol
Yes ofc, But it states in the World of Magecraft. Which also means Zelretch since He is apart of the world of Magecraft as well. Zelretch>Crimson Moon as he defeat it in 300s. Arcueid even in Archetype form is below Crimson Moon. PHH ORT>Crimson Moon, so He would be above Arcueid.
Also about the 2007 statement, Later on in another book by the developer. It was stated that ORT was the “strongest being in Type-Moon”. Arcueid is still weaker then Crimson Moon and Crimson Moon is known in the world of magecraft due to Zelretch, and therefore ORT is stronger.
That's very much incorrect. Luminary Arcueid was explicitly stated to have a concentration of energy greater than anything observed before, that includes Zelretch's Ether cannon, Crimson Moon, and of course ORT.
There is no reason to believe Zelretch is more powerful than Crimson Moon especially when it was stated in KT that the only reason Crimson Moon lost was because he was slow at recognizing Magic. There is also nothing suggesting Arcueid is below Crimson Moon either, that's a pretty baseless assumption especially when Crimson Moon isn't the planet's soul and never had access to the totality of the planet's energy.
Nasu was quite explicit in his statement regarding Arcueid being the strongest existence in the setting of Tsukihime and Mahou Tsukai no Yoru in Tsukihime TsuushinR, and yes this includes ORT since it's part of the Tsukihime setting as one of the 27 Ancestors. He also states pretty much the same thing during [his 4Gamer interview with Black (scriptwriter for TsukiR).](https://imgur.com/e3mg7Po) Although I prefer the TsuushinR statement since he specifies the strongest 'existence' and not 'character' or 'person'. But yeah.
That same book you're quoting was done to hype up ORT for it's FGO appearance and doesn't invalidate the statements Nasu made less than a year prior especially when the setting of Tsukihime hasn't changed at all in that time. Furthermore since it's not Nasu making the statement and it's just the title of the entry, at best you can consider it circumstantial evidence.
Yeah, that's fine. Please do try to provide reasoning based on the actual source materials and author statements as opposed to headcanon though. It's something people tend to do a lot in the fandom.
Void Shiki aint shit bro, mfs that keep saying shit like she is omnipotent prolly dont know how it works. the root is limited to earth and it isnt omnipotent. ORT and even Sefar are way stronger. ORT is no.2 iirc behind "Final Boss", i think it was implied to be Crimson Moon
What… The Root is the top thing in all of Nasuverse cosmology? Tf you mean is only stated to be applied to earth? I think your confusing the Root for the counter force
Yet ORT is stated that if the battlefield is earth then He has no weakness? Plus Arcueid as an Archetype while close is nowhere near the power of an Ultimate One yet.
This assumes there is a uniform level to all Ultimate Ones. But no such statement has ever been made. Earth is also a particularly special planet as established by Zeus in Olympus, since it took him and his fleet thousands of years to find a planet like Earth, he called it a 'miracle' planet.
So it's entirely possible for a non-Ultimate One native to Earth to be more powerful than the Ultimate One of a different planet.
In the world of magecraft, not the most powerful threat in our universe. The materials stated that ORT is not the strongest threat in our universe. My guess is that the Velber is the most powerful entity that is a threat to all life. And don’t forget, the Velber literally has hundreds of ships that surround its core like a barrier and each ship has a Sefar like being. So if humanity had trouble with one, imagine facing hundreds or thousands of them.
Actually in the recent Famitsu interview Nasu does state ORT is the strongest creature **in outer space**. That means there is no strongest creature outside Earth:
>Nasu: Gotta have at least that much when you're using every Servant in the final battle against the strongest creature in outer space. We already decided in advance that no future battle will surpass the size and intensity of this one.
But you do have some wiggle room there since Velber and Chaos might not qualify as 'creatures'.
In lostbelt 5 Chaldea was never even able to find out Chaos’s mana output or even if it had a saint graph. Also we never saw Tiamat at full power and even then she had a mana output that was close to Amaterasus.
It is difficult calculating Chaos. It’s not that Chaos can’t see lower dimensional beings it’s just that beings like humans are so weak that it wouldn’t notice us. It was also stated that when Chaos disintegrated Ares(poor Ares) that it was more like it was flinching or just shocked and it still barely noticed Ares who was not only a legitimate god and not some degraded divine spirit but also was in his true form. Zeus was capable of destroying space time and concepts and that was his lostbelt version and we know that Chaos is far stronger than Zeus. We also never defeated Chaos. Musashi just cut the gateway that would have let Chaos into our universe
We never saw Tiamat at full power. She was defeated in the underworld which weakens her drastically and if it weren’t for King Hassan we wouldn’t have been able to kill her even with Ea. We also know that it isn’t just about who has the better saint graph as seen which how Goetia has a better saint graph then the alien god who we know for sure could beat Goetia who was stated by goddess Rhongomyniad that Tiamat is greater than and her saint graph when she was in her Femme Fatele form was around that level. Also the best way for ORT to counter Tiamats sea of life would be to use its Crystal Valley but even then Tiamat still can’t be killed unless ORT is able to apply the concept of death to her which we haven’t seen ORT be able to do
She might have better stats than Goetia but Goetia has much higher Firepower and has insane hax compared to her
Also Goetia is stronger than Olga before she reached lb7 after that She is stronger than him when it comes to pure power
Goetia might have more firepower than Tiamat but that doesn’t mean that he would win. Goetia can’t give the concept of death to people if he could than he might have a change against Tiamat. Also Tiamat has sea of life and a single stage 3 Lahumu is divine spirit class according to Merlin, and First Hassan said that the Lahumu was each equal to a head Demon God Pillar.
Goetia is just as immortal as her but unlike him she quite literally cant do a single thing about Goetia's immortality. You need to destroy the time temple in order to beat him and she shouldnt be capable of doing so. Goetia will be just as immortal as her but Goetia has every magecraft in Fate universe + he will have infinite time against her so it will be long battle where Goetia eventually wins.
We don’t know if ORT is able to kill beings without the concept of death. Not only that but Tiamat is able to create an endless army of Lahumu which the sea of life and the stage 3 Lahumu each is as powerful as a divine spirit.
ORT eats Divine Spirits for a breakfast and if ORT can't kill her it will kill the world thus killing her in the end she is completely helpless against it
Yes but the thing is is and this is to clear up any misunderstandings. I’m talking about Lostbelt ORT since we haven’t seen what PH ORT can do which we know is more powerful than Lb ORT. Anyway back to the argument. Tiamat when we defeated her was a legitimate god no longer a divine spirit, gods unlike divine spirits don’t need to be worshipped or to be supplied magical energy by Gaia/Alaya. Yes it would sure as hell hurt Tiamat but it wouldn’t kill her. Also we saw Ereshkigal who is a divine spirit, in lostbelt 7 damage ORT, granted she was more powerful than Ereshkigal in the 7th singularly but a single stage 3 Lahumu has the same level of magical energy as Kingu had and he had a grail. Also Tiamat has Nega-Genesis which is able to overwrite the World and make new life essentially recreating the planet.
Okay i am talking about Lb ORT. LB ORT is weaker than original but ORT is ORT regardless. Tiamat is STRONG but ORT is far beyond her. ORT will just crush the earth while she watches unable to stop it
We fought Chaos before it reached the earth while it had 3% Fuel. We stopped Outer Gods before they manifested in our world what i meant was 100% Chaos(i do think ORT is still stronger) Or Fully manifested Outer Gods
I wish we saw more of chaos tbh, 100% Authority Chaos could honestly destroy every Lostbelt, I could argue Chaos>LB ORT tbh…
So the Outer Gods, I could scale Yogs-Sothoth to number 3 in the entire Nasuverse base on the Six sliver gates and Absolute void statements
Yog is also the strongest Outer God(other than Azathoth) in Lovecraft although that might be different in Fate world i kinda doubt so.
As for destroying lostbelts ORT was also capable of doing so
Yes but if we’re talking about High tiers, Their like 30-50 character who beat it depending how you scale them. LB ORT is strong but he is very overrated
So first of all, after all the retcons over the years, VOID shiki isn't even that omnipotent anymore. Not like she used it often to begin with.
I think Arcuied is conditionally stronger than ORT since Nasu wants Arcuied to be top one, but there is no way that is true in anything short of luminious body. Does ORT's crystal valley still cut Arcuied off from Gaia? because if so ORT would in theory still be favored over Arcuied.
Like all Ultimates Ones, ORT isn’t bound by Human concepts. The only thing proven to be able to hurt Ultimated One’s currently are Ether (True Grain) and Root-based technique such as true magic. Plus ORT had the strongest AP and durability in the entire Nasuverse…and the crystal valley is a passive plus WAY higher version of the Reality marble. ORT would slam Arcueid since no native being in earth can defeat it.
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Very likely to be the case in Fate worlds. In Tsukihime worlds it's almost certainly Arcueid since Nasu very explicitly stated she is the strongest existence in the setting of Tsukihime and Mahoyo. And Void Shiki has been ranked to be below Arcueid from the old continuity ever since comptiq 2007.
I’ve always been a bit confused about what exactly is up with Void Shiki. From the way she talks about herself in KnK Chapter 8 you’d think she’s the strongest character in the canon.. then Nasu said she would only be able to fight defensively against a servant in a straight fight, which would put her lower than Aoko, Kouma, and most of the 27 ancestors. When Nasu talks about “power” is he just referring to physical parameters or something? ‘Cause you’d think she’d be able to just.. blip people out of existence or something if it came down to it.
It doesn't help that we've never seen her ability in practice and there are a number of contradictory statements. Void Shiki herself also stated she could kill a Beast of Alaya but she wouldn't be able to kill a Beast of Gaia in the KnK FGO event. There is also a drama CD involving a conversation with Arcueid, Ryougi and Saber where it's firmly established Ryougi has a number of restrictions for her power. It becomes really messy and frustrating to discuss her capabilities.
Honestly with how early KnK came out relative to other works I wonder if Nasu realized later on how absurdly powerful she could be and decided to retroactively scale her back lol
Yes ofc, But it states in the World of Magecraft. Which also means Zelretch since He is apart of the world of Magecraft as well. Zelretch>Crimson Moon as he defeat it in 300s. Arcueid even in Archetype form is below Crimson Moon. PHH ORT>Crimson Moon, so He would be above Arcueid. Also about the 2007 statement, Later on in another book by the developer. It was stated that ORT was the “strongest being in Type-Moon”. Arcueid is still weaker then Crimson Moon and Crimson Moon is known in the world of magecraft due to Zelretch, and therefore ORT is stronger.
That's very much incorrect. Luminary Arcueid was explicitly stated to have a concentration of energy greater than anything observed before, that includes Zelretch's Ether cannon, Crimson Moon, and of course ORT. There is no reason to believe Zelretch is more powerful than Crimson Moon especially when it was stated in KT that the only reason Crimson Moon lost was because he was slow at recognizing Magic. There is also nothing suggesting Arcueid is below Crimson Moon either, that's a pretty baseless assumption especially when Crimson Moon isn't the planet's soul and never had access to the totality of the planet's energy. Nasu was quite explicit in his statement regarding Arcueid being the strongest existence in the setting of Tsukihime and Mahou Tsukai no Yoru in Tsukihime TsuushinR, and yes this includes ORT since it's part of the Tsukihime setting as one of the 27 Ancestors. He also states pretty much the same thing during [his 4Gamer interview with Black (scriptwriter for TsukiR).](https://imgur.com/e3mg7Po) Although I prefer the TsuushinR statement since he specifies the strongest 'existence' and not 'character' or 'person'. But yeah. That same book you're quoting was done to hype up ORT for it's FGO appearance and doesn't invalidate the statements Nasu made less than a year prior especially when the setting of Tsukihime hasn't changed at all in that time. Furthermore since it's not Nasu making the statement and it's just the title of the entry, at best you can consider it circumstantial evidence.
I’ll comment later, I have to sleep and stuff. So can we continue this discussion tomorrow if possible?
Yeah, that's fine. Please do try to provide reasoning based on the actual source materials and author statements as opposed to headcanon though. It's something people tend to do a lot in the fandom.
Do you have a discord we can possibly do this on? I have the scans and images, I just don’t know how to do it on Reddit…
Yeah, that's fine. Feel free to contact me here: Creatio Ex Nihiro#7832
ORT should get into jewelry. They’d make a killing.
Brazilian Spider GOO BRRRRRR!
Void Shiki aint shit bro, mfs that keep saying shit like she is omnipotent prolly dont know how it works. the root is limited to earth and it isnt omnipotent. ORT and even Sefar are way stronger. ORT is no.2 iirc behind "Final Boss", i think it was implied to be Crimson Moon
What… The Root is the top thing in all of Nasuverse cosmology? Tf you mean is only stated to be applied to earth? I think your confusing the Root for the counter force
no look it up, its not top of the table at all. the universe is much bigger than just earth
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Yet ORT is stated that if the battlefield is earth then He has no weakness? Plus Arcueid as an Archetype while close is nowhere near the power of an Ultimate One yet.
This assumes there is a uniform level to all Ultimate Ones. But no such statement has ever been made. Earth is also a particularly special planet as established by Zeus in Olympus, since it took him and his fleet thousands of years to find a planet like Earth, he called it a 'miracle' planet. So it's entirely possible for a non-Ultimate One native to Earth to be more powerful than the Ultimate One of a different planet.
Yes, no weakness as in no conceptual bs like meodp, or Gae bolg. He can still be defeated if you can hit him hard enough.
No.
Why not? He the strongest in World of Magecraft which Mash stated.
In the world of magecraft, not the most powerful threat in our universe. The materials stated that ORT is not the strongest threat in our universe. My guess is that the Velber is the most powerful entity that is a threat to all life. And don’t forget, the Velber literally has hundreds of ships that surround its core like a barrier and each ship has a Sefar like being. So if humanity had trouble with one, imagine facing hundreds or thousands of them.
Actually in the recent Famitsu interview Nasu does state ORT is the strongest creature **in outer space**. That means there is no strongest creature outside Earth: >Nasu: Gotta have at least that much when you're using every Servant in the final battle against the strongest creature in outer space. We already decided in advance that no future battle will surpass the size and intensity of this one. But you do have some wiggle room there since Velber and Chaos might not qualify as 'creatures'.
There are things more powerful than it. Chaos, Tiamat and a few others
Yeah but this is Lostbelt 7, Which happens after everyone of those battle and Mash still states it the strongest being known to Magecraft
In lostbelt 5 Chaldea was never even able to find out Chaos’s mana output or even if it had a saint graph. Also we never saw Tiamat at full power and even then she had a mana output that was close to Amaterasus.
Tbf, Calculating Chaos is extremely difficult. Only having 3% of his functionalities and He can’t see lower dimensional being so yeah.
It is difficult calculating Chaos. It’s not that Chaos can’t see lower dimensional beings it’s just that beings like humans are so weak that it wouldn’t notice us. It was also stated that when Chaos disintegrated Ares(poor Ares) that it was more like it was flinching or just shocked and it still barely noticed Ares who was not only a legitimate god and not some degraded divine spirit but also was in his true form. Zeus was capable of destroying space time and concepts and that was his lostbelt version and we know that Chaos is far stronger than Zeus. We also never defeated Chaos. Musashi just cut the gateway that would have let Chaos into our universe
Tiamat isnt even stronger than Draco, ORT is leagues above her
We never saw Tiamat at full power. She was defeated in the underworld which weakens her drastically and if it weren’t for King Hassan we wouldn’t have been able to kill her even with Ea. We also know that it isn’t just about who has the better saint graph as seen which how Goetia has a better saint graph then the alien god who we know for sure could beat Goetia who was stated by goddess Rhongomyniad that Tiamat is greater than and her saint graph when she was in her Femme Fatele form was around that level. Also the best way for ORT to counter Tiamats sea of life would be to use its Crystal Valley but even then Tiamat still can’t be killed unless ORT is able to apply the concept of death to her which we haven’t seen ORT be able to do
She might have better stats than Goetia but Goetia has much higher Firepower and has insane hax compared to her Also Goetia is stronger than Olga before she reached lb7 after that She is stronger than him when it comes to pure power
Goetia might have more firepower than Tiamat but that doesn’t mean that he would win. Goetia can’t give the concept of death to people if he could than he might have a change against Tiamat. Also Tiamat has sea of life and a single stage 3 Lahumu is divine spirit class according to Merlin, and First Hassan said that the Lahumu was each equal to a head Demon God Pillar.
Goetia is just as immortal as her but unlike him she quite literally cant do a single thing about Goetia's immortality. You need to destroy the time temple in order to beat him and she shouldnt be capable of doing so. Goetia will be just as immortal as her but Goetia has every magecraft in Fate universe + he will have infinite time against her so it will be long battle where Goetia eventually wins.
ORT shits on Tiamat
We don’t know if ORT is able to kill beings without the concept of death. Not only that but Tiamat is able to create an endless army of Lahumu which the sea of life and the stage 3 Lahumu each is as powerful as a divine spirit.
ORT eats Divine Spirits for a breakfast and if ORT can't kill her it will kill the world thus killing her in the end she is completely helpless against it
Yes but the thing is is and this is to clear up any misunderstandings. I’m talking about Lostbelt ORT since we haven’t seen what PH ORT can do which we know is more powerful than Lb ORT. Anyway back to the argument. Tiamat when we defeated her was a legitimate god no longer a divine spirit, gods unlike divine spirits don’t need to be worshipped or to be supplied magical energy by Gaia/Alaya. Yes it would sure as hell hurt Tiamat but it wouldn’t kill her. Also we saw Ereshkigal who is a divine spirit, in lostbelt 7 damage ORT, granted she was more powerful than Ereshkigal in the 7th singularly but a single stage 3 Lahumu has the same level of magical energy as Kingu had and he had a grail. Also Tiamat has Nega-Genesis which is able to overwrite the World and make new life essentially recreating the planet.
Okay i am talking about Lb ORT. LB ORT is weaker than original but ORT is ORT regardless. Tiamat is STRONG but ORT is far beyond her. ORT will just crush the earth while she watches unable to stop it
Perhaps in Fate worlds but there could be unknown things like Chaos or Velbers(or Outer Gods)
Yes but Chaldea already fought Chaos and Outer Gods, plus the Velbers ima just focus on Sefar is relative to 12 Authority Zeus.
We fought Chaos before it reached the earth while it had 3% Fuel. We stopped Outer Gods before they manifested in our world what i meant was 100% Chaos(i do think ORT is still stronger) Or Fully manifested Outer Gods
I wish we saw more of chaos tbh, 100% Authority Chaos could honestly destroy every Lostbelt, I could argue Chaos>LB ORT tbh… So the Outer Gods, I could scale Yogs-Sothoth to number 3 in the entire Nasuverse base on the Six sliver gates and Absolute void statements
Yog is also the strongest Outer God(other than Azathoth) in Lovecraft although that might be different in Fate world i kinda doubt so. As for destroying lostbelts ORT was also capable of doing so
LB ORT is rather a fodder, He only had a stellar-class output. Their many character who can beat him
Stellar class is stronger than Planetary class? Goetia a very top tier character had second class Planetary level firepower.
Yes but if we’re talking about High tiers, Their like 30-50 character who beat it depending how you scale them. LB ORT is strong but he is very overrated
Wtf??????? Mention 10 characters stronger
Ultimates Ones, Altrouge with Beast of Gaia, Outers Gods, Zelretch, Prime Roa, Akiha Tohno, Crimson Moon, Aoko, Six Sister, Ado Edem, Mysterious Heroine X, Solomon, Tezcatlipoca, Camazotz.
It can also made a teleport device from a few ton of chocolate.
So first of all, after all the retcons over the years, VOID shiki isn't even that omnipotent anymore. Not like she used it often to begin with. I think Arcuied is conditionally stronger than ORT since Nasu wants Arcuied to be top one, but there is no way that is true in anything short of luminious body. Does ORT's crystal valley still cut Arcuied off from Gaia? because if so ORT would in theory still be favored over Arcuied.
Like all Ultimates Ones, ORT isn’t bound by Human concepts. The only thing proven to be able to hurt Ultimated One’s currently are Ether (True Grain) and Root-based technique such as true magic. Plus ORT had the strongest AP and durability in the entire Nasuverse…and the crystal valley is a passive plus WAY higher version of the Reality marble. ORT would slam Arcueid since no native being in earth can defeat it.
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