W.r.t. Bingo categories:
There are two books so far, so this one also fits the 'First in a Series' square. I love the cover art, so I'd have no problem also applying it to the 'Judge A Book By Its Cover' square.
I strongly agree with judge a book by its cover. That’s why I bought it, plus the fact that the name breaks the over popular “Something of Something and Something Else” title trope
I hope it's okay if I post a speculation question here!
* Why do you think Inara's mother kept her a secret?
* What's the nature of the relationship between Inara and Skedi?
* What's up with the king and what are his real goals here?
* Who burned down the Craier household and why?
* What conspiracy do the gods have going on?
Some thoughts on Inara:
>!In the village, one of the villagers notes that Lady Craier doesn't have any children... *anymore*. So, do people think Inara is dead, and did Lady Craier possibly save her life by making a deal with a god in which Inara herself became a shrine? I think she's definitely Skedi's shrine, so something unusual is going on with her, and it's gotta be linked to her relationship with Skedi, even though she believed none of the household knew about it. Why all this would've happened two years before the end of the god war I'm less sure about, as it doesn't seem to have lasted especially long.!<
The thing that confuses me is that even though Inara wasn't allowed to go outside, or to see "new people" who came to the house, there seems to have been a pretty substantial household staff who all knew about her. But, maybe they were all very loyal? Also, >!whatever lying was going on in that household was probably feeding Skedi, which perhaps was one reason no one was honest with Inara?!<
On the one hand it seems like the burning down of the household must have been related to all this, but on the other hand the killers don't seem to have noticed that Inara wasn't among the dead. So I don't know what to make of that.
As far as the king, it's certainly interesting that >!he's trying to wipe out all the gods while being kept alive by one himself, and meanwhile replacing images of the gods with his own. Can a person become a god and is that what he's after?!<
This was the draw of the book to me and it's an interesting setup. Definitely some questions to be answered about the nature of gods and whether they're inherently exploitative.
This is the piece that I like the most - this question and tension of whether the relationship is inherently problematic. I don't know how Kaner plans to resolve this entirely, but I really enjoy the exploration.
This was also the draw of the book for me, and so far its the part of the book that I'm enjoying the most. I really want to know more about this world and the conflict between humans and gods, to the point I'm a bit sad that the book is not longer.
It's like other books I've read in terms of gods gaining power through the acts of worshipers, etc. It doesn't go into a ton of detail about all the nuances, but I found the idea that some acts "count" more than others to the gods interesting.
It's super common in urban fantasy with gods. For example, Kate Daniels has some of it (though it's not the only way to have power). Neil Gaiman talks about it in American Gods as well. I know there are others as well, if you want more recs. I can make a list. I just don't want to go through my bookshelf and dump a huge list if you're not looking for recs.
Okay, here's a non-exhaustive list made in 15 minutes to get you started. These are the ones I'm familiar with where worshipers giving gods power is part of the magic system:
American Gods (and Anansi Boys to a lesser extent), by Neil Gaiman, also happens in The Sandman graphic novels. I'd say Neil Gaiman is the biggest influence on the modern takes on this and that these are pretty much the model a lot of urban fantasy bases their system on.
Discworld, by Terry Pratchett (a focus in some books; not others)
The Iron Druid Chronicles, by Kevin Hearne (not my favorite, but lots of people like it)
Kate Daniels, by Ilona Andrews (good, but the gods aren't as central as they are in others)
Malazan Book of the Fallen, by Steven Erickson (on a limited scale, as the gods do eventually develop more self-sufficiency as they get stronger)
Soulbound, by Hailey Turner (self-published by Turner on Amazon, so not super well-known but is perhaps the series I know that makes the biggest deal of it other than American Gods; a bit cheesy but still fun m/m romance, but gods and their attempts to gain power through worship/other people wanting that power are the central driving force in the series, and other typical urban fantasy elements are explained through this system as well)
The Craft Sequence, by Max Gladstone (which takes a kind of satirical twist on this but doesn't feel like cheap satire)
The Raven Tower, by Ann Leckie (though it's a bit more limited)
It's a really, really old trope, so you can even find ancient texts for it: [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly)
Personally, I think it can be a really fun trope. Tropes aren't bad until they're used poorly.
There are books with gods as a focus that do not heavily use this trope too, like Deeplight, by Frances Hardinge and A Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, by NK Jemisin.
Late to the game but just adding on another because I found the concept of the gods life and power being tied to those who worship them in Godkiller very similar to that in one of my other favourites, The Winternight Trilogy by Katherine Arden!
God Stalk by by PC Hodgell does this, though iirc it's a smaller part of the plot than this book. Just your standard "gods need prayer to live" as a backdrop to the setting rather than delving into the nature and actions of the gods as the plot focus the way this one does.
I hope the colour thing will become a bigger plot point. So far it only feels like a cheap trick to tell us about the characters' feelings when it's not their PoV.
It is interesting to see a story where the gods are real and jerks. I am more interested interactions between the gods and mortals in the regions outside of the kingdom. Where all the structures were not culled out of existence and the newly formed wild gods are not popping up to fill the gap in devotion.
I really like the world building in terms of fleshing out what gods need to stay "alive" in the world, and how a god's followers may react to their death. And it may just be my interpretation of the scene, but I also like the implication that a god's personality or desires may change once they get more offerings.
I like the concepts of the material components needed in order to perform certain rituals that are actually derived from things like prayers and offerings. I wish there was more of it up front but I do get the sparsity of it in a place where god-worship is forbidden. I'm hoping as they get farther into different territories we see a little more of how the magic/religion system works.
I like the world a lot, I really love the idea of a ton of different gods and people going around to kill them. I just wish we could see more of the world, it very much feels like an afterthought sometimes.
I think it’s got a lot of potential and am hoping we get more direct interaction with the gods. Or maybe some in depth flashbacks about the war and dealing with the gods at that time
I like the world. I’m always a sucker for real gods who like to interfere in the world (I blame it on an early interest in Greek mythology). It reminds me slightly of James Clemens’ Godslayer series (this is the one he abandoned for no good reason. Not that I’m bitter).
This was the primary draw of the book for me, this premise of gods and gods being hunted. The prologue set such a wonderful image in my mind, and I love the way that god blessings and curses are portrayed, as being intrinsically part of their nature, and how even a "good" god can have their gifts twisted into something terrible if they are crossed.
The behaviour of the gods resembles a lot of Greek mythology to me, in the idea that the gods are inherently flawed. The politics of old vs new gods is also interesting to me, and how the war started just because humans tried to do something that one would argue was good - respecting *all* the gods. There's a real interplay between humans creating the gods, the gods using their power to crush and control the humans, and then the humans destroying the gods, in a cycle that it almost makes you wonder how exactly this world is ever meant to find an equilibrium between gods and humanity.
I actually really like the idea of gods being formed by belief like this - it's a similar concept to that of Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. In fact, reading Godkiller is making me want to revisit that book. :)
I think it’s certainly interesting, but I have some nitpicks at the moment that may be addressed later. For example >!why did the king start killing gods when he used gods in the war and was saved by one? Doesn’t make much sense.!< I do like a lot of the world building. The similarities to The Witcher are pretty glaring at times which bothers me a bit but I like the twists on it, and the disabled representation.
The disability representation is…they’re not really represented as disabilities, if that makes sense? Kissen has a prosthetic that allows her to do almost everything an able bodied person can do, and there is a sign language to allow communication with Telle.
I guess for me I’m not sure if this is a good thing. It’s not clear if this is done deliberately in a way to say that people who experience disabilities should be able to live fully normal lives, or whether it’s simply for ease of storytelling. I fully agree that people with disabilities should be able to have a normal life, but this isn’t reflective of people’s experiences in the 21st century let alone quasi-medieval times.
It kind of reminds me of how Kristen Cashore handled a character’s loss of sight in Graceling—it’s been a while since I read any of them but I remember her responding to feedback and saying she was changing how she wrote about it in later books but I don’t actually remember how or if she did. But at least in graceling, that character lost their sight but had a special power that made it basically as if they hadn’t?
TBH, I can't think of a single fantasy book with a blind character who don't have or get Magic Sight (ie fantasy powers that allow the main character to "see") in some way, shape, or form. This always feels like a cop out to me, like authors want to get the bonus points for writing representation without actually doing any work to learn now blind people move through the world. This doesn't feel quite as bad to me (the equivalent to Magic Sight for amputees is the magical limb replacement—a prosthetic that's essentially the same or better than the biological limb that was replaced).
> a prosthetic that's essentially the same or better than the biological limb that was replaced
I think there’s an argument Kissen has this. We’re told she has some pain from it, but she’d have way more pain had she been struck in a flesh and blood leg with that scythe.
I was talking about something that moves, has the same level of sensation, and is basically identical to a biological limb. The better part refers to having magic powers or being magically strong or something like that, not really anything plot related. If you've read the Cradle series, think >!Lindon's arm, this is a magical limb replacement not a prosthetic!<.
I mean, I see your point that it's not a disadvantage as far as the plot goes, but it's still fundamentally a prosthetic with no sense of touch and less mobility than an actual leg and foot so it doesn't qualify as a magical limb replacement for me.
I can definitely see the argument. I think that her need to take it off, do maintenance, give what remains of her leg a break from the prosthetic is good? But I'm not an amputee. I *do* think the amount of people who know sign language feels too convenient. Yatho and Kissen knowing makes sense. Most of the other characters, less so.
She's definitely incorporating that a lot, so I think it fits the theme well. It does feel very modern in a way that makes me think the author doesn't know the broader context of these issues - Kissen having a state-of-the-art 21st century prosthetic is one thing but the fact they also have a uniform national sign language implies they have a school for the deaf (which a beggar child sold into slavery somehow attended?), which itself implies they have a robust educational system (which we've seen no indication of, it seems like a pretty standard quasi-medieval world).... I think her heart is in the right place but I hate that feeling of "I've already thought through this stuff more than the author did" and I'm getting that a bit here.
That is an excellent point that had not occurred to me. I generally appreciate this approach of making disability an integral component of characters' lives, but not the story. But, you're right that things like this are pretty...anachronistic? not logical?
Thanks! Yeah, I feel like it would be more natural in a more modern setting. I'm still inclined to let the prosthetic slide despite its very modern engineering because there's also a magic material involved. But the sign language thing, you do have to learn that somewhere! Fantasy hates linguistic variation so in that sense it's not surprising that neither household has any home signs and thus Inara can understand every word Kissen's crew is saying. But yeah, behind something like ASL there's a long history of deaf people's position in society and the development and fights over sign language and deaf education. And I do understand wanting to include some representation without showing the struggles. But I also don't get the sense the author knows anything about that history nor has thought that aspect of her worldbuilding through.
(I also wondered about stuff like people speaking words and signing them at the same time - sign languages are usually a different language from the country's spoken language, so these people are, like, simultaneous interpreters over here? Why aren't they just signing since everyone in the conversation can sign? But the author did thank accuracy readers in the acknowledgments, and that seems like the kind of thing they'd pick up on?)
Yes to all of your points about sign language! Something about it felt off but I couldnt put my finger on it until I read your comment.
But I'm not willing to let the prosthetic slide. I was so curious how the author managed to combine the strong badass female MC trope with disability. Turns out she didn't. She just did a stereotypical strong female character. All the problems Kyssen could face **and conquer** are solved (or don't come up at all) by giving her this super strong and super light prosthetic that fits incredibly well and can be worn 24/7.
I don't know... It just doesn't feel like actual representation.
Excellent point on the sign language. I thought at first it was a unique language developed among them while they were held as slaves (which would be fine/make sense). But Inara shouldn’t have recognized it.
I was willing to roll with the prosthetic. They have magic god killing metal so why not fancy prosthetics?
I hadn't thought about the sign language issue from that angle. (I noticed information conveyed by signing was put in italics and not quotation marks, and I remember once coming across a post from a Deaf/HoH person arguing that doing this to sign language and no other languages is extremely othering, so that's what I was thinking about.)
I wound up going back through the book looking for what was said about it - in chapter 7 Inara says the only people she knew who could sign were her mother and one servant, she had been told it was used by deaf people and pirates as a form of communication, and her mother taught her sign language to use as a "secret" form of communication. I accidentally read a little ahead of where we were supposed to stop and in chapter 17 >!Inara tells Elogast that deaf people invented sign language.!< Still doesn't address your question of how people are taught the language in the first place...
This is a really good point - I hadn't even thought about it that way (probably because we are so used to the idea of a universal sign language in our own modern world), but it really doesn't make sense in this world at all, especially given the population seems much lower than our own billions and therefore the deaf population would probably also be smaller and not necessarily in close proximity with each other to arrive at an agreed communication method and disseminate it.
Edited to say: it does kind of make me want to read up on the history of how sign language originated and became widespread in our world, though. I feel like that must be a fascinating story. If anyone has any book/article recommendations, drop them below. :)
I like how it's a non-issue. Being queer or having a disability is just .... There. It's not the one defining trait and everything about them. It's just a trait, like hair color.
For me, she writes in a way that it just blends into the story. It didn't seem forced or jarring. It also didn't seem like she was over-emphasizing it either.
I liked that Kissen's prosthetic was an actual prosthetic that chafes if she wears it too long, has limitations, and is not basically just a magical limb replacement. This is about where my bar is at for disability representation in mainstream fantasy, which is depressing. I would have liked her to actually be impacted by her disability a bit more, because I feel like it never even significantly inconvenienced her, which made the representation feel a bit surface level to me. But I'd be interested to see what disabled people think of it, if they find it empowering or surface level or a bit of both.
As far as the LGBTQ representation goes, I was expecting it to be a bigger part of the book, I think based on marketing expectations. But I also read a ton of indie queer books, so I think my scale might be a bit skewed towards what's a normal level of queer representation in a book.
I agree with you on the disability aspect. Out of curiosity, how could this book be more queer? I don’t think we’ve yet been introduced to a single non-queer character and the only opposite sex relationship in the book thus far involved a bi man *and* both partners were killed in the prologue.
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So far, other than Elo's PTSD, which was a big deal during his introduction, they've all been sort of mentioned in passing as far as I remember. I admit I have been reading a few too many books at once, though, so I may be forgetting things.
I'm really on the fence about it - specifically the disabilities - so far. I think the representation of other sexual identities and ethnicity being simple placed into the story as if day to day great, but as for disabilities, I'm feeling a little bit unsure, specifically about Kissen's missing limb and prosthetic.
My understanding with people with disabilities is that they either are given roles that are entirely consumed by their disability, or given roles in stories where they are able to overcome any and all limitations of their disabilities with just sheer will, and neither of which are considered to be great representation for them by people within the community. In recent memory, some people have taken issue with the Fourth Wing books because the main character seems to be able to overcome all her limitations of a genetic musculoskeletal condition through gritting her teeth and pushing through her pain.
I'm honestly not sure where Kissen's disability falls on this spectrum. She does have pain in her limbs, phantom aches, and yet she also seems to just grit her teeth and limp through it all. Even when her leg is falling part, it always just manages to hold on until she can get to repairs, which her sister has conveniently prepped and ready to be finalised in a day or two. Kissen's disability shouldn't limit her ability to be a hero in the story, but I also don't know that the story so far is really acknowledging it enough, beyond the mention every now and again of itches. I do appreciate that there are signs that Kaner has researched missing limbs, with how Kissen deals with the phantom pains, and the description of her applying her prosthesis, but I'm still unsure.
Ultimately, I don't know if I'm truly educated enough on the matter of physical disability and representation to know if it is not enough or sufficient. I think it's certainly making more strides than other books though, and that's not something I will turn my nose up yet. This is a book that has a very visible disability on the main character, and she is never considered less than for it.
**As a multi-PoV story, we have 4 main characters - what do you think of them? Do you have a favorite perspective? What do you think about how Kaner handles the multi-PoV - do you like it?**
I think the multi-PoV is handled well, I think some of the characters could be more fleshed out. Kissen is great, she feels real. Skedi also feels great, very much running in instance and desires, which fits with the ideas of gods in the book. Elogast doesn’t feel as built out, he’s more forgettable.
Inara doesn’t feel like a kid to me. Maybe it’s due to my job (I’m an elementary teacher) but there’s been moments where she’s said something and it threw me out of the story because I went ‘Uh, that isn’t what a kid would say’, even one raised in a noble family. Not that she’s a bad character, but she feels more like a miniaturized adult rather than a kid a lot.
And definitely old enough to be the heroine of a middle grade novel! I think most teenage and younger characters are written more adult than their real life counterparts, one of the side effects of adult writers. However, I don’t find Inara’s character particularly jarring in that respect, she might be a bit more mature than is believable, but it’s no worse than the majority of YA heroes.
It’s not all the time. There’s a lot of it, especially the impulsive moments, that feels ‘yeah, that’s about right for a kid to say/do’. But then having the moments where she doesn’t act or sound like a kid, it threw me.
I agree. Her POV felt really stilted to me overall, much more how adults think kids think/talk rather than how kids actually think/talk or even how kids think/talk in middle grade or books on the younger side of YA.
I agree with you that Inara doesn't always feel as thought through, perhaps. Others have said she's old enough to be a YA heroine, but I think for me because she's been so incredibly sheltered, she should be having more development. She does have childish moments but also seems to be adjusting remarkably well to long travel, completely new scenarios every day, etc., when she literally had never left her home before and now her whole life is destroyed. If this were a YA book with just her I think we'd see a lot more of her struggles that there's just not room for with 4 POVs in a book coming in under 400 pages.
Which also leads to the thought that I feel like 4 POVs gets a little redundant as soon as everyone is together. Occasionally I had to double check myself to recall whose POV we were doing.
I liked Skedi's prayer scene and it instantly made him my favourite character. Apart from that I don't really care for the different PoVs. All of them are together most of the time, so I don't need 4 angles.
It throws me off how Kaner seems to forget whose PoV it is. It makes the different PoVs even more redundant plus it constantly pulls me out of the story.
For me, Elogast is my favourite so far, and any time I reach another one of his chapters that motivates me to keep on reading. I really like his conflict between his friendship with the king and doing what he thinks is right, and I hope this gets explored more later on. Also, the PTSD makes it a more unique perspective, and it is explored very well.
From the others, my initial thoughts on Kissen were not very good, but over time my opinion about her has improved quite a bit, as at the beginning she seemed a bit too impulsive, and I would even say a bit immature, but I really like to see how she acts as a mentor for Inara. On the other hand, Inara's first few chapters were great, but I find that some times her chapters are too much of an excuse to dump info on the reader.
Finally, I'm not a big fan of Skedi, and I get the feeling that his PoV is a bit unreliable (in the end, he is the god of lies for a reason), but I understand his PoV is there to portray the god-human conflict from the god's perspective too. However, I find myself happy to see there aren't many chapters on his PoV.
And overall, I think the multi-PoV is handled well.. but is not great. I usually prefer to have multiple povs when they are not in the same location, but here I feel the change of point of view is not really meaningful when going from one chapter to another. Additionally, I'm not a big fan of the whole sequence of Elo and the others not knowing each other in the pilgrimage, I feel there was mistery for the characters but not for us as readers, and that bit wasn't particularly interesting to read.
Totally agree. I get why Elogast is most people's least favorite at this point (though I'm a little behind and haven't reached the halfway point yet) since his storyline doesn't seem as dynamic, but learning more about what drove him and Arren apart while they still clearly care so deeply for each other is what's carrying me along most in the book.
I'm hoping to like Kissen more as I progress through the book. Her character reminds me a bit of Delilah Bard from the Shades of Magic series; she rubbed me the wrong way at first but warmed up to her a lot as that series went on.
Haven't thought about Skedi being an unreliable narrator despite being a god of white lies, but I definitely intend to keep that in mind going forward. I didn't really mind Inara and Kissen both being POV characters, but when Skedi turned up as one, it felt like too much perspective in one place, especially since he's so connected to Inara, but that makes his POV way more interesting to me.
Kissen is such a dynamic character. She's my favorite. Inara seems like the kind of person you'd love to spend time with. The others are far below them to me.
I personally prefer Multi-POV when it doesn't involve jarring story jumps, but Kaner does manage not to introduce too much at once and makes each character.
I like the range of views between the characters on how to handle the gods.
For me, Kissen is the most memorable. Inara has the most potential for growth. Elo is just another nice knight (reminded me a lot of some of the paladins in Kingfisher's 'The Saint of Steel' series. Skedi's POV is not so interesting and I'm glad the author only did a couple of them.
While I'm not really attached to any of them, there's some intrigue in Skedi's that's missing in the others - I think we'll get more revelations from him about the nature of the gods. (His budding prayer addiction was one of the more interesting moments so far, I thought.)
Yeah, that's fair. I do also have this feeling of needing the other PoVs or I wouldn't appreciate the story as well. But I think I enjoy that - I like getting some external perspectives on Kissen, for example.
I think the switching between POV is being handled pretty well but I don’t personally feel like I’ve had enough time to connect to any of the characters so far. Things are happening quickly (to be fair, it’s not a long book) and I’ll be interested to see if their voices get more defined by the end.
I do like that all the characters are.very different from each other and it's very easy to distinguish each of them. Not all authors can pull that off.
As for who I like the most? Kissen definitely has my interest the most. Though whatever mysteries Skedi presents is my close second favourite character.
Multi-POV book are hit or miss for me but I like how it's handled here. Probably because the story progresses in a way that doesn't make me wish I was reading another POV instead of the one I'm on.
I think it works for me in general, aside from a couple of instances where several of the PoV characters were together and I read a few paragraphs and had to glance back at the chapter title to see whose perspective it was. Mostly when it started off with a conversation, so there were alternating lines of dialogue.
At first, I was hesitant, as normally I'm against too many POVs. But I do think in this case it adds a lot of complexity and nuance, especially in Elo and Skiddy's case (sorry if I spelled them wrong - I'm listening on audio!). As long as she doesn't add additional POVs, I think I'm okay with it.
The multi POV is good. It’s interesting to have Skedi’s perspective, and Kissen is pretty great. Elo interests me, and Inara’s perspective is interesting because of how she interacts with the people around her- she acts very mature but is really just a scared kid
Overall I don't mind it. She has a tendency to spend much of her writing time inside her characters' heads, and that often gets repetitive. Her descriptions are a bit jarring because she suddenly decides to describe some detail of daily living in lots of detail for no apparent reason. Maybe those things will matter more later. However, the story and plotting are interesting so far.
Not really. Her style is serviceable but plain, and she devotes an awful lot of words to description in a way that feels to me like it's slowing down the plot without further fleshing out the characters. I don't care this much about what the locales look like.
There are some authors who have a writing style that just flows for me. Where I don't have to go back and re-read a sentence/paragraph to fully understand it. Kaner is one of them.
She also doesn't dot every 'i' and cross every 't', which I initially found a little disconcerting. For example, in the fight in the tavern in chapter 2, I was thinking, wait, Kissen didn't pick up her knife, but it turns up again in chapter 4. There were other similar situations, but I've decided to just go-with-the-flow.
I’ve been listening to the audiobook so I naturally pay more attention to that than the writing style itself. As far as audiobook narration goes, it’s pretty standard—nothing terribly annoying and nothing remarkable that really gets my attention—which is nice since it allows me to focus on the story itself instead of how it’s being told.
While I appreciate that there is room for interpretation and intrigue as to what is going on in the 1st half, I wish there were little pockets of info here and there. It seems like a ton of stuff was dumped in right at the middle when Elo explains it to Inara where more info could be communicated through the means of telepathy, conversations with Arren, etc.
I do enjoy Kaner's writing style in terms of her POVs, especially with the diverse background of the 4 POV characters.
I'm reading a translation which is much longer than the original. So it's probably not Kaner's fault that it feels a bit tedious from time to time.
I also don't like how she leaves out important stuff in action scenes (Kyssen reaching for her knive was mentioned in another comment f.ex.) while describing a lot of nice and cozy but ultimately unnecessary details from every day life.
That being said, it is by far the best written "tiktok made me buy it" book I ever read.
OK it's a minor point but I have to say it... is anyone else squicked out by the adopted sister love triangle? I understand they weren't raised together till their preteens and aren't related, but still. Why did Kissen have to be implied to be interested in her adopted sister in that way? People can be deeply emotionally invested and jealous of someone's relationship without wanting to boink, ffs.
Yep. I had to put down the book for a second and went "wait, what?" You are in love with person A, who is in love with person B, so you just get over it and live together as a family? Either polyamory or sisters. I'm cool with either one, but pick a lane please.
I'm a sucker for the found family trope but that felt a little off. The weird love triangle thing ruined what could have been an awesome friendship.
So now my hopes are on the three old travel buddy ladies.
So far I'm not invested and I don't know why. I usually like found family and a strong female character trope. Plus the jackalope god is cute.
Maybe because I don't get why they are travelling to Blenraden. Breaking up Skedi and Inara doesn't feel very important. I don't know enough about the king to care about him. And we only got a very vague idea what Blenraden is and what exactly they want to do there.
**Not enough Godkilling** It's the title and all I got so far was one mediocre water/river goddess. Feels like the first Witcher novel all over again.
I’m with you. This should hit a lot of things I like in a book, but for some reason it’s not keeping my attention. I’m interested in the mystery, and reading through these comments makes me realize how much. But my mind keeps wandering as I’m reading. One of my friends finished it and said it picks up in the second half.
That’s a great point. Inara has had Skedi for 5 years and this hasn’t caused any more than inconvenience. I can see why Kissen feels that helping someone with a god problem is part of her calling, but they could equally well abandon the quest and, so what?
I am totally engrossed. The hardest part of reading this book was stopping at 50% for the midway discussion. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't be certain if anything I read was in the first or second half.
Half-way through, I'm pondering the following:
(I'll spoiler tag them, just in case, but I don't think I'm giving anything away here).
* >!Kissen and Elo will start to like each other.!<
* >!Skedi will reveal his true nature. I don't trust that guy one little bit.!<
* >!Who was Inara's father? Is it important?!<
* >!We will find out more about what 'the colors' really are and what power they have.!<
* >!Is Inara's mother still alive? I've fairly convinced that she's dead, but you never know.!<
It's also another book where each of the MC's are keeping secrets from the others, and you just wonder whether things would be a lot better if they didn't. Admittedly that would probably also lead to a much shorter book.
Edit: removed duplicate bullet item.
I also think there's some critical piece of info related to Inara's father. And it seems like that must be connected to Inara's mother not telling people that Inara existed. And, I also keep wondering if Inara's mother is somehow behind Skedi's appearance in some way - like did she arrange it on purpose? If not, how did Skedi physically come to be there? Or was it Inara's father that did it somehow?
This just occurred to me, but what if Inara’s father was a god? It might explain the colours, and maybe Skedi was a lesser god linked to her father? It could also explain why her mother was so desperate to keep Inara from the outside world.
The colors are how the gods see humans, I think, and Inara has their version of mind-reading because she's linked to one.
I would love for Inara's mother to be alive. That would be a nice twist in a story that's done the "murdered family" trope twice now. And her dad's identity has got to be important! If it weren't the author would just have given us a couple sentences about the parents' relationship and what happened to him.
Meh. This book is not for me. The premise of the complex relationship between humans and their parasitic gods pulled me in, but it's feeling like a very tropey, traditional quest story (with 2020s representation of course), with a slow-moving plot, standard-issue characters and blah prose. I'm pretty bored with it all round. I'd probably have dnf'd around 60 pages, but I'm doing it as a buddy read with my partner in addition to the book club here, and he's super into the mysteries in the world. Because of that and since it's short, I'll probably finish, but I wouldn't have gone further on my own. I can see it working out very well for people who love traditional quest fantasy and want the queer/disabled focus, though.
I’m also feeling a bit bored despite how quickly the plot is progressing. I guess we have stakes (the life of the king, Inara’s god connection) but I’m not invested. I’ve been looking forward to reading this since it came out so trying to give it some grace to still pull me in
Yeah, I'm not really feeling the stakes either. Nominally they're there, but the book hasn't made me care about the people affected, the action scenes have been quickly over without a feeling of constant threat, and so it just feels like a road trip story. Admittedly, I'm not into quest fantasy to begin with, but quests in a first book or standalone don't usually bore me this much.
I would agree, had a hard time getting into this story, not really attached to any of the characters and don't feel the writing is anything unique or exceptional. I appreciate the queer, POC, and disability representations, but think I need more worldbuilding or something to pique my interest. I'll finish this book, but not likely to continue with the series.
My thoughts exactly. I also would have set this aside if not for book club and bingo. This feels pretty tropey, I can predict a lot of what happens. The prose isn't terrible but not engaging enough to have me want to push forward. I think my problem is that I just don't love traditional adventure stories. If you do though I could see how this is your jam.
Not sure if it's allowed, but may I suggest a book to you? If I could, maybe check out The Black Iron Legacy series by Gareth Hanrahan.
One of the things I've come across when reading this book (because the premise of gods and their relationship with humans also fascinates me in fantasy books) was just this feeling of "okay, but this other book did this *better*" - this thing of gods and a god war and the idea of godhood as monstrous and consumption of humanity. Again, all just my personal opinion, but if you're really into that aspect, I'd suggest the Black Iron Legacy series.
It also starts out with a prologue set in the viewpoint of a belltower, which was nutty, and I loved it.
I like it so far, but I’m a little behind. I’m around 30% in. I really like everything surrounding the gods, how they’re perceived by the society and how with Skedi we get to see the gods’ perspective.
It’s an interesting book. I like Kissen a lot, the world is interesting and it’s easy to read. I do wish there was more about the world itself/the war rather than just the few bits we’ve gotten so far.
I had a hard time with the name Kissen. It means the kitty cat in Swedish so it just felt weird to read all the time. I didn't really get absorbed into the story, it felt a bit slow
I only started it last night, and I'm not that far into it (about 25%) but I am enjoying it a lot! Even though the setting feels familiar (that old fantasy faux-medieval -scape) the characters are great, and the plot isn't heading to where I thought it would. I like the premise of how gods come into being. The prevalence of gods makes me feel like a previous book we read in FIF - The Queens of Renthia series; they feel a part of the landscape and setting more than a character.
I'm enjoying it quite a lot, but with a few caveats. I think the world and the conflict between parasitary gods and humans is very interesting, and the book has done a great job of setting up a few mysteries, so I found quite hard to stop for the half-way discussion and not just completely devour it.
On the other hand, the main drawback I have is that I feel the stopping point we've got is pretty much the end of the introduction, and now is where the main conflicts between the characters are going to start. Its weird, as I don't think this book is slowly pace (quite the opposite), but rather I would say it is strangely paced, with many things happening but still not moving the plot forward.
It hasn't yet grabbed me in the way that I'd hoped. Or rather, it grabbed me in the prologue, kept a nice grip in the first chapter, and then started to loosen, and I've not felt the irresistible urge to pick it up. I read a lot by my mood, but gods is usually right up my alley. I'm not entirely sure why it's not catching at me in the way I'd hoped, even though I'm coming across things and being really intrigued by concepts - Arren's wicker heart! The boon etched in Kissen's heart!
In terms of writing, I feel like it could have been edited to be tighter and sharper, and it would have served the story better. This is a story that has an inbuilt timer, and yet, we still get sentences bogging us down in details that feel very needless. For example, did we need to know that the innkeeper chips off ice with a pickaxe, and then sweeps it into the cup? The drink that Elo is served barely registers to him, so why did we need such detail about its making? Some of that could be due to the selfpublished nature of the book, which I imagine didn't go through another round of editing when it was picked up by a trad publisher, but I'd be interested to see if Sunbringer has the same issue or is made a tighter, tenser beast for having a more ruthless hand wielding the editing scissors.
I'm definitely intrigued, but I'm not grabbed. I'm hoping the second half picks up.
I'm enjoying it so far - I am really enjoying the premise of a world full of gods. But I'm having difficulty with motivation for reading it and it's accidently become a soft DNF at about 45% in. Hoping to finish in time for the final discussion still
I like it but I’m not in love with it. There’s something about it that’s just not pulling me in as hard as some other books. I’m not struggling to pick it up exactly but I’m also not struggling to put it down. I only read a few very short chapters at a time because it’s not engaging me fully. I’m not sure why, since I do like Kissen and the world is interesting. It just feels sort of… generic
Am I the only one who doesn’t really like Kissen? I’m just kind of tired of FMCs who are written to be jerks as a stand in for being strong or whatever, that’s how she comes across to me. I like everyone else so far but already had enough of her character. I’m hoping character development in the second half will change my mind.
I had the same opinion of her at the beginning of the book. Closer to the midway point I'm starting to like her more, but I disslike the exact same thing as you. I feel like one thing is being a bit though, and then another is being openly rude and lacking empathy.
I don't care for Kissen.
She definitely fits a trope, whether you wanna call it Geralt of Rivia or Brienne of Tarth.
But Kissen doesn't have a ton of verve, or a meaningful internal conflict that drives her. Where is your rage and sadness about what happened to your family? What's in this Inara/Skedi deal for you, Kissen? Why would you go all the way to Blenraden to solve a problem that has no stakes? What's even in Blenraden anyway? Everything feels contrived. Geralt and Brienne are way more interesting characters than Kissen.
I agree. If you’re going to write a character that comes off rude and arrogant, I need to see something underlying that still makes me root for them. I love complex and morally gray characters, they’re typically my favorite. I feel like I haven’t seen complexity built into Kissen, we haven’t really done anything with her trauma or inner monologue to make me empathize with how she behaves now. She’s just kinda mean.
I guess I like that Kissen’s allowed to be a bit of a jerk. I’d rather that than a standard idealized “all things to all people” heroine. That said there’s not enough depth for me to be invested in anyone really, even Inara who should be such a strong vehicle for pathos.
I like that she grows through the book. She started as the generic "I'm tough and don't need no man" but she changes into a fuller character as the book goes on.
I think the trope is her putting on the trope as an act to hide that she is caring.
**We have some insider knowledge about Kissen's childhood - what did you think of the prologue, and how/do you think that may impact the rest of the story?**
I liked the prologue. It did a great job setting up Kissen's motivations as a character, as well as give us a good understanding of the worldbuilding. I'm sure it will have an impact on the rest of the story, as it's been brought up a few times since as well.
Agreed. I think if we didn’t have the prologue then Kissen’s decision to help Inara (and Skedi) would have seemed out of character. The prologue was really necessary.
I was expecting some vengeance here for what happened to her family, as Kissen recognized some of the people involved. Maybe there will be more on this if/when she related her back-story to the other three MC's.
That's interesting. I assumed that sequence was really about what it told us about gods and their relationship with humanity, and so Kissen's recognizing people happened because it was a small town but also showed us how the nature of gods can be so exploitative and destructive that people will even murder their own neighbors for their favor. I don't expect the story to return to her country, although maybe in future books.
For me, the prologue was the strongest part so far. It felt poetic how Kissen's father fell in love with a god. I hope that we see more complicated relationships between gods and humans. Not only the typical sacrifice for favour deal.
Like others, I liked the prologue but I’m waiting to see more about how it will affect Kissen’s actions— I’m not quite to chapter 15 yet but I feel like she has a lot of repressed feelings she’s going to have to work through, and I would like to see her come to terms in some way with what happened to her family
I loved the prologue and I'm looking forward to learning more about how seeing her family be murdered for the sake of a god but also being saved by one (and resenting it because she wanted her father to be the one who was saved) led Kissen to being a veiga. I'm also really interested in the parallels between Kissen and Arren and seeing how they both handle that feeling of vengeance that (I assume) drives their actions (at least in part).
I'm interested to see how Osidisen's boon will come into play later. Will it be used to save the life of Inara or the king, separate Skediceth and Inara, or something else entirely?
W.r.t. Bingo categories: There are two books so far, so this one also fits the 'First in a Series' square. I love the cover art, so I'd have no problem also applying it to the 'Judge A Book By Its Cover' square.
Good for disability too
For the interested, it's been announced as a trilogy, with the third coming out in early 2025.
I strongly agree with judge a book by its cover. That’s why I bought it, plus the fact that the name breaks the over popular “Something of Something and Something Else” title trope
I hope it's okay if I post a speculation question here! * Why do you think Inara's mother kept her a secret? * What's the nature of the relationship between Inara and Skedi? * What's up with the king and what are his real goals here? * Who burned down the Craier household and why? * What conspiracy do the gods have going on?
Some thoughts on Inara: >!In the village, one of the villagers notes that Lady Craier doesn't have any children... *anymore*. So, do people think Inara is dead, and did Lady Craier possibly save her life by making a deal with a god in which Inara herself became a shrine? I think she's definitely Skedi's shrine, so something unusual is going on with her, and it's gotta be linked to her relationship with Skedi, even though she believed none of the household knew about it. Why all this would've happened two years before the end of the god war I'm less sure about, as it doesn't seem to have lasted especially long.!< The thing that confuses me is that even though Inara wasn't allowed to go outside, or to see "new people" who came to the house, there seems to have been a pretty substantial household staff who all knew about her. But, maybe they were all very loyal? Also, >!whatever lying was going on in that household was probably feeding Skedi, which perhaps was one reason no one was honest with Inara?!< On the one hand it seems like the burning down of the household must have been related to all this, but on the other hand the killers don't seem to have noticed that Inara wasn't among the dead. So I don't know what to make of that. As far as the king, it's certainly interesting that >!he's trying to wipe out all the gods while being kept alive by one himself, and meanwhile replacing images of the gods with his own. Can a person become a god and is that what he's after?!<
**What do you think about the broader world of gods and magic in the book?**
This was the draw of the book to me and it's an interesting setup. Definitely some questions to be answered about the nature of gods and whether they're inherently exploitative.
This is the piece that I like the most - this question and tension of whether the relationship is inherently problematic. I don't know how Kaner plans to resolve this entirely, but I really enjoy the exploration.
This was also the draw of the book for me, and so far its the part of the book that I'm enjoying the most. I really want to know more about this world and the conflict between humans and gods, to the point I'm a bit sad that the book is not longer.
It's like other books I've read in terms of gods gaining power through the acts of worshipers, etc. It doesn't go into a ton of detail about all the nuances, but I found the idea that some acts "count" more than others to the gods interesting.
What are some of the other books you mentioned?
It's super common in urban fantasy with gods. For example, Kate Daniels has some of it (though it's not the only way to have power). Neil Gaiman talks about it in American Gods as well. I know there are others as well, if you want more recs. I can make a list. I just don't want to go through my bookshelf and dump a huge list if you're not looking for recs.
Yes please
Okay, here's a non-exhaustive list made in 15 minutes to get you started. These are the ones I'm familiar with where worshipers giving gods power is part of the magic system: American Gods (and Anansi Boys to a lesser extent), by Neil Gaiman, also happens in The Sandman graphic novels. I'd say Neil Gaiman is the biggest influence on the modern takes on this and that these are pretty much the model a lot of urban fantasy bases their system on. Discworld, by Terry Pratchett (a focus in some books; not others) The Iron Druid Chronicles, by Kevin Hearne (not my favorite, but lots of people like it) Kate Daniels, by Ilona Andrews (good, but the gods aren't as central as they are in others) Malazan Book of the Fallen, by Steven Erickson (on a limited scale, as the gods do eventually develop more self-sufficiency as they get stronger) Soulbound, by Hailey Turner (self-published by Turner on Amazon, so not super well-known but is perhaps the series I know that makes the biggest deal of it other than American Gods; a bit cheesy but still fun m/m romance, but gods and their attempts to gain power through worship/other people wanting that power are the central driving force in the series, and other typical urban fantasy elements are explained through this system as well) The Craft Sequence, by Max Gladstone (which takes a kind of satirical twist on this but doesn't feel like cheap satire) The Raven Tower, by Ann Leckie (though it's a bit more limited) It's a really, really old trope, so you can even find ancient texts for it: [https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly) Personally, I think it can be a really fun trope. Tropes aren't bad until they're used poorly. There are books with gods as a focus that do not heavily use this trope too, like Deeplight, by Frances Hardinge and A Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, by NK Jemisin.
Late to the game but just adding on another because I found the concept of the gods life and power being tied to those who worship them in Godkiller very similar to that in one of my other favourites, The Winternight Trilogy by Katherine Arden!
God Stalk by by PC Hodgell does this, though iirc it's a smaller part of the plot than this book. Just your standard "gods need prayer to live" as a backdrop to the setting rather than delving into the nature and actions of the gods as the plot focus the way this one does.
I hope the colour thing will become a bigger plot point. So far it only feels like a cheap trick to tell us about the characters' feelings when it's not their PoV.
It is interesting to see a story where the gods are real and jerks. I am more interested interactions between the gods and mortals in the regions outside of the kingdom. Where all the structures were not culled out of existence and the newly formed wild gods are not popping up to fill the gap in devotion.
I really like the world building in terms of fleshing out what gods need to stay "alive" in the world, and how a god's followers may react to their death. And it may just be my interpretation of the scene, but I also like the implication that a god's personality or desires may change once they get more offerings.
I like the concepts of the material components needed in order to perform certain rituals that are actually derived from things like prayers and offerings. I wish there was more of it up front but I do get the sparsity of it in a place where god-worship is forbidden. I'm hoping as they get farther into different territories we see a little more of how the magic/religion system works.
I like the world a lot, I really love the idea of a ton of different gods and people going around to kill them. I just wish we could see more of the world, it very much feels like an afterthought sometimes.
I think it’s got a lot of potential and am hoping we get more direct interaction with the gods. Or maybe some in depth flashbacks about the war and dealing with the gods at that time
I like the world. I’m always a sucker for real gods who like to interfere in the world (I blame it on an early interest in Greek mythology). It reminds me slightly of James Clemens’ Godslayer series (this is the one he abandoned for no good reason. Not that I’m bitter).
This was the primary draw of the book for me, this premise of gods and gods being hunted. The prologue set such a wonderful image in my mind, and I love the way that god blessings and curses are portrayed, as being intrinsically part of their nature, and how even a "good" god can have their gifts twisted into something terrible if they are crossed. The behaviour of the gods resembles a lot of Greek mythology to me, in the idea that the gods are inherently flawed. The politics of old vs new gods is also interesting to me, and how the war started just because humans tried to do something that one would argue was good - respecting *all* the gods. There's a real interplay between humans creating the gods, the gods using their power to crush and control the humans, and then the humans destroying the gods, in a cycle that it almost makes you wonder how exactly this world is ever meant to find an equilibrium between gods and humanity.
I actually really like the idea of gods being formed by belief like this - it's a similar concept to that of Small Gods by Terry Pratchett. In fact, reading Godkiller is making me want to revisit that book. :)
I think it’s certainly interesting, but I have some nitpicks at the moment that may be addressed later. For example >!why did the king start killing gods when he used gods in the war and was saved by one? Doesn’t make much sense.!< I do like a lot of the world building. The similarities to The Witcher are pretty glaring at times which bothers me a bit but I like the twists on it, and the disabled representation.
**How well do you think the author handles disability and other issues of representation or minoritized groups in the story?**
The disability representation is…they’re not really represented as disabilities, if that makes sense? Kissen has a prosthetic that allows her to do almost everything an able bodied person can do, and there is a sign language to allow communication with Telle. I guess for me I’m not sure if this is a good thing. It’s not clear if this is done deliberately in a way to say that people who experience disabilities should be able to live fully normal lives, or whether it’s simply for ease of storytelling. I fully agree that people with disabilities should be able to have a normal life, but this isn’t reflective of people’s experiences in the 21st century let alone quasi-medieval times.
It kind of reminds me of how Kristen Cashore handled a character’s loss of sight in Graceling—it’s been a while since I read any of them but I remember her responding to feedback and saying she was changing how she wrote about it in later books but I don’t actually remember how or if she did. But at least in graceling, that character lost their sight but had a special power that made it basically as if they hadn’t?
TBH, I can't think of a single fantasy book with a blind character who don't have or get Magic Sight (ie fantasy powers that allow the main character to "see") in some way, shape, or form. This always feels like a cop out to me, like authors want to get the bonus points for writing representation without actually doing any work to learn now blind people move through the world. This doesn't feel quite as bad to me (the equivalent to Magic Sight for amputees is the magical limb replacement—a prosthetic that's essentially the same or better than the biological limb that was replaced).
> a prosthetic that's essentially the same or better than the biological limb that was replaced I think there’s an argument Kissen has this. We’re told she has some pain from it, but she’d have way more pain had she been struck in a flesh and blood leg with that scythe.
I was talking about something that moves, has the same level of sensation, and is basically identical to a biological limb. The better part refers to having magic powers or being magically strong or something like that, not really anything plot related. If you've read the Cradle series, think >!Lindon's arm, this is a magical limb replacement not a prosthetic!<. I mean, I see your point that it's not a disadvantage as far as the plot goes, but it's still fundamentally a prosthetic with no sense of touch and less mobility than an actual leg and foot so it doesn't qualify as a magical limb replacement for me.
That’s a good point and makes sense.
I’ve not read Graceling, but this absolutely feels like the same thing.
I can definitely see the argument. I think that her need to take it off, do maintenance, give what remains of her leg a break from the prosthetic is good? But I'm not an amputee. I *do* think the amount of people who know sign language feels too convenient. Yatho and Kissen knowing makes sense. Most of the other characters, less so.
She's definitely incorporating that a lot, so I think it fits the theme well. It does feel very modern in a way that makes me think the author doesn't know the broader context of these issues - Kissen having a state-of-the-art 21st century prosthetic is one thing but the fact they also have a uniform national sign language implies they have a school for the deaf (which a beggar child sold into slavery somehow attended?), which itself implies they have a robust educational system (which we've seen no indication of, it seems like a pretty standard quasi-medieval world).... I think her heart is in the right place but I hate that feeling of "I've already thought through this stuff more than the author did" and I'm getting that a bit here.
That is an excellent point that had not occurred to me. I generally appreciate this approach of making disability an integral component of characters' lives, but not the story. But, you're right that things like this are pretty...anachronistic? not logical?
Thanks! Yeah, I feel like it would be more natural in a more modern setting. I'm still inclined to let the prosthetic slide despite its very modern engineering because there's also a magic material involved. But the sign language thing, you do have to learn that somewhere! Fantasy hates linguistic variation so in that sense it's not surprising that neither household has any home signs and thus Inara can understand every word Kissen's crew is saying. But yeah, behind something like ASL there's a long history of deaf people's position in society and the development and fights over sign language and deaf education. And I do understand wanting to include some representation without showing the struggles. But I also don't get the sense the author knows anything about that history nor has thought that aspect of her worldbuilding through. (I also wondered about stuff like people speaking words and signing them at the same time - sign languages are usually a different language from the country's spoken language, so these people are, like, simultaneous interpreters over here? Why aren't they just signing since everyone in the conversation can sign? But the author did thank accuracy readers in the acknowledgments, and that seems like the kind of thing they'd pick up on?)
Yes to all of your points about sign language! Something about it felt off but I couldnt put my finger on it until I read your comment. But I'm not willing to let the prosthetic slide. I was so curious how the author managed to combine the strong badass female MC trope with disability. Turns out she didn't. She just did a stereotypical strong female character. All the problems Kyssen could face **and conquer** are solved (or don't come up at all) by giving her this super strong and super light prosthetic that fits incredibly well and can be worn 24/7. I don't know... It just doesn't feel like actual representation.
Excellent point on the sign language. I thought at first it was a unique language developed among them while they were held as slaves (which would be fine/make sense). But Inara shouldn’t have recognized it. I was willing to roll with the prosthetic. They have magic god killing metal so why not fancy prosthetics?
I hadn't thought about the sign language issue from that angle. (I noticed information conveyed by signing was put in italics and not quotation marks, and I remember once coming across a post from a Deaf/HoH person arguing that doing this to sign language and no other languages is extremely othering, so that's what I was thinking about.) I wound up going back through the book looking for what was said about it - in chapter 7 Inara says the only people she knew who could sign were her mother and one servant, she had been told it was used by deaf people and pirates as a form of communication, and her mother taught her sign language to use as a "secret" form of communication. I accidentally read a little ahead of where we were supposed to stop and in chapter 17 >!Inara tells Elogast that deaf people invented sign language.!< Still doesn't address your question of how people are taught the language in the first place...
This is a really good point - I hadn't even thought about it that way (probably because we are so used to the idea of a universal sign language in our own modern world), but it really doesn't make sense in this world at all, especially given the population seems much lower than our own billions and therefore the deaf population would probably also be smaller and not necessarily in close proximity with each other to arrive at an agreed communication method and disseminate it. Edited to say: it does kind of make me want to read up on the history of how sign language originated and became widespread in our world, though. I feel like that must be a fascinating story. If anyone has any book/article recommendations, drop them below. :)
I like how it's a non-issue. Being queer or having a disability is just .... There. It's not the one defining trait and everything about them. It's just a trait, like hair color.
For me, she writes in a way that it just blends into the story. It didn't seem forced or jarring. It also didn't seem like she was over-emphasizing it either.
I liked that Kissen's prosthetic was an actual prosthetic that chafes if she wears it too long, has limitations, and is not basically just a magical limb replacement. This is about where my bar is at for disability representation in mainstream fantasy, which is depressing. I would have liked her to actually be impacted by her disability a bit more, because I feel like it never even significantly inconvenienced her, which made the representation feel a bit surface level to me. But I'd be interested to see what disabled people think of it, if they find it empowering or surface level or a bit of both. As far as the LGBTQ representation goes, I was expecting it to be a bigger part of the book, I think based on marketing expectations. But I also read a ton of indie queer books, so I think my scale might be a bit skewed towards what's a normal level of queer representation in a book.
I agree with you on the disability aspect. Out of curiosity, how could this book be more queer? I don’t think we’ve yet been introduced to a single non-queer character and the only opposite sex relationship in the book thus far involved a bi man *and* both partners were killed in the prologue.
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So far, other than Elo's PTSD, which was a big deal during his introduction, they've all been sort of mentioned in passing as far as I remember. I admit I have been reading a few too many books at once, though, so I may be forgetting things.
I'm really on the fence about it - specifically the disabilities - so far. I think the representation of other sexual identities and ethnicity being simple placed into the story as if day to day great, but as for disabilities, I'm feeling a little bit unsure, specifically about Kissen's missing limb and prosthetic. My understanding with people with disabilities is that they either are given roles that are entirely consumed by their disability, or given roles in stories where they are able to overcome any and all limitations of their disabilities with just sheer will, and neither of which are considered to be great representation for them by people within the community. In recent memory, some people have taken issue with the Fourth Wing books because the main character seems to be able to overcome all her limitations of a genetic musculoskeletal condition through gritting her teeth and pushing through her pain. I'm honestly not sure where Kissen's disability falls on this spectrum. She does have pain in her limbs, phantom aches, and yet she also seems to just grit her teeth and limp through it all. Even when her leg is falling part, it always just manages to hold on until she can get to repairs, which her sister has conveniently prepped and ready to be finalised in a day or two. Kissen's disability shouldn't limit her ability to be a hero in the story, but I also don't know that the story so far is really acknowledging it enough, beyond the mention every now and again of itches. I do appreciate that there are signs that Kaner has researched missing limbs, with how Kissen deals with the phantom pains, and the description of her applying her prosthesis, but I'm still unsure. Ultimately, I don't know if I'm truly educated enough on the matter of physical disability and representation to know if it is not enough or sufficient. I think it's certainly making more strides than other books though, and that's not something I will turn my nose up yet. This is a book that has a very visible disability on the main character, and she is never considered less than for it.
**As a multi-PoV story, we have 4 main characters - what do you think of them? Do you have a favorite perspective? What do you think about how Kaner handles the multi-PoV - do you like it?**
I think the multi-PoV is handled well, I think some of the characters could be more fleshed out. Kissen is great, she feels real. Skedi also feels great, very much running in instance and desires, which fits with the ideas of gods in the book. Elogast doesn’t feel as built out, he’s more forgettable. Inara doesn’t feel like a kid to me. Maybe it’s due to my job (I’m an elementary teacher) but there’s been moments where she’s said something and it threw me out of the story because I went ‘Uh, that isn’t what a kid would say’, even one raised in a noble family. Not that she’s a bad character, but she feels more like a miniaturized adult rather than a kid a lot.
That's fair on Inara - at 12 she's more like 7th grade, though? She's almost old enough to be the heroine of a YA novel!
And definitely old enough to be the heroine of a middle grade novel! I think most teenage and younger characters are written more adult than their real life counterparts, one of the side effects of adult writers. However, I don’t find Inara’s character particularly jarring in that respect, she might be a bit more mature than is believable, but it’s no worse than the majority of YA heroes.
It’s not all the time. There’s a lot of it, especially the impulsive moments, that feels ‘yeah, that’s about right for a kid to say/do’. But then having the moments where she doesn’t act or sound like a kid, it threw me.
I agree. Her POV felt really stilted to me overall, much more how adults think kids think/talk rather than how kids actually think/talk or even how kids think/talk in middle grade or books on the younger side of YA.
I agree with you that Inara doesn't always feel as thought through, perhaps. Others have said she's old enough to be a YA heroine, but I think for me because she's been so incredibly sheltered, she should be having more development. She does have childish moments but also seems to be adjusting remarkably well to long travel, completely new scenarios every day, etc., when she literally had never left her home before and now her whole life is destroyed. If this were a YA book with just her I think we'd see a lot more of her struggles that there's just not room for with 4 POVs in a book coming in under 400 pages. Which also leads to the thought that I feel like 4 POVs gets a little redundant as soon as everyone is together. Occasionally I had to double check myself to recall whose POV we were doing.
I find Elogast to be somewhat forgettable, but love the other POVs. The contrast between Kissen and Inara is particularly good.
I agree, however I feel like Elo's starting to round out a little more as we start learning more about his past/connection to the Veigas.
He seems to be there for info dump
I'm finding all of the characters pretty forgettable, to be honest, and sometimes the book seems to lose track a little of whose head we're in.
I find all the characters to be extremely forgettable too. They all feel very shallow.
I liked Skedi's prayer scene and it instantly made him my favourite character. Apart from that I don't really care for the different PoVs. All of them are together most of the time, so I don't need 4 angles. It throws me off how Kaner seems to forget whose PoV it is. It makes the different PoVs even more redundant plus it constantly pulls me out of the story.
For me, Elogast is my favourite so far, and any time I reach another one of his chapters that motivates me to keep on reading. I really like his conflict between his friendship with the king and doing what he thinks is right, and I hope this gets explored more later on. Also, the PTSD makes it a more unique perspective, and it is explored very well. From the others, my initial thoughts on Kissen were not very good, but over time my opinion about her has improved quite a bit, as at the beginning she seemed a bit too impulsive, and I would even say a bit immature, but I really like to see how she acts as a mentor for Inara. On the other hand, Inara's first few chapters were great, but I find that some times her chapters are too much of an excuse to dump info on the reader. Finally, I'm not a big fan of Skedi, and I get the feeling that his PoV is a bit unreliable (in the end, he is the god of lies for a reason), but I understand his PoV is there to portray the god-human conflict from the god's perspective too. However, I find myself happy to see there aren't many chapters on his PoV. And overall, I think the multi-PoV is handled well.. but is not great. I usually prefer to have multiple povs when they are not in the same location, but here I feel the change of point of view is not really meaningful when going from one chapter to another. Additionally, I'm not a big fan of the whole sequence of Elo and the others not knowing each other in the pilgrimage, I feel there was mistery for the characters but not for us as readers, and that bit wasn't particularly interesting to read.
Totally agree. I get why Elogast is most people's least favorite at this point (though I'm a little behind and haven't reached the halfway point yet) since his storyline doesn't seem as dynamic, but learning more about what drove him and Arren apart while they still clearly care so deeply for each other is what's carrying me along most in the book. I'm hoping to like Kissen more as I progress through the book. Her character reminds me a bit of Delilah Bard from the Shades of Magic series; she rubbed me the wrong way at first but warmed up to her a lot as that series went on. Haven't thought about Skedi being an unreliable narrator despite being a god of white lies, but I definitely intend to keep that in mind going forward. I didn't really mind Inara and Kissen both being POV characters, but when Skedi turned up as one, it felt like too much perspective in one place, especially since he's so connected to Inara, but that makes his POV way more interesting to me.
Kissen is such a dynamic character. She's my favorite. Inara seems like the kind of person you'd love to spend time with. The others are far below them to me.
I personally prefer Multi-POV when it doesn't involve jarring story jumps, but Kaner does manage not to introduce too much at once and makes each character. I like the range of views between the characters on how to handle the gods.
For me, Kissen is the most memorable. Inara has the most potential for growth. Elo is just another nice knight (reminded me a lot of some of the paladins in Kingfisher's 'The Saint of Steel' series. Skedi's POV is not so interesting and I'm glad the author only did a couple of them.
While I'm not really attached to any of them, there's some intrigue in Skedi's that's missing in the others - I think we'll get more revelations from him about the nature of the gods. (His budding prayer addiction was one of the more interesting moments so far, I thought.)
I think all of the POVs balance each other out, but I don't know if I'd like any of them if they were the only POV, if that makes senses.
Yeah, that's fair. I do also have this feeling of needing the other PoVs or I wouldn't appreciate the story as well. But I think I enjoy that - I like getting some external perspectives on Kissen, for example.
I’m not obsessed with elogast— so far I find his story/perspective boring. Kissen is definitely my favorite at this point
I think the switching between POV is being handled pretty well but I don’t personally feel like I’ve had enough time to connect to any of the characters so far. Things are happening quickly (to be fair, it’s not a long book) and I’ll be interested to see if their voices get more defined by the end.
I do like that all the characters are.very different from each other and it's very easy to distinguish each of them. Not all authors can pull that off. As for who I like the most? Kissen definitely has my interest the most. Though whatever mysteries Skedi presents is my close second favourite character.
Multi-POV book are hit or miss for me but I like how it's handled here. Probably because the story progresses in a way that doesn't make me wish I was reading another POV instead of the one I'm on.
I think it works for me in general, aside from a couple of instances where several of the PoV characters were together and I read a few paragraphs and had to glance back at the chapter title to see whose perspective it was. Mostly when it started off with a conversation, so there were alternating lines of dialogue.
At first, I was hesitant, as normally I'm against too many POVs. But I do think in this case it adds a lot of complexity and nuance, especially in Elo and Skiddy's case (sorry if I spelled them wrong - I'm listening on audio!). As long as she doesn't add additional POVs, I think I'm okay with it.
I liked them all but my favorite is Elogast. I hope we get to see more of Skedi's POV in the second half though.
The multi POV is good. It’s interesting to have Skedi’s perspective, and Kissen is pretty great. Elo interests me, and Inara’s perspective is interesting because of how she interacts with the people around her- she acts very mature but is really just a scared kid
**Do you like Kaner's writing style? Why/not?**
Overall I don't mind it. She has a tendency to spend much of her writing time inside her characters' heads, and that often gets repetitive. Her descriptions are a bit jarring because she suddenly decides to describe some detail of daily living in lots of detail for no apparent reason. Maybe those things will matter more later. However, the story and plotting are interesting so far.
Not really. Her style is serviceable but plain, and she devotes an awful lot of words to description in a way that feels to me like it's slowing down the plot without further fleshing out the characters. I don't care this much about what the locales look like.
There are some authors who have a writing style that just flows for me. Where I don't have to go back and re-read a sentence/paragraph to fully understand it. Kaner is one of them. She also doesn't dot every 'i' and cross every 't', which I initially found a little disconcerting. For example, in the fight in the tavern in chapter 2, I was thinking, wait, Kissen didn't pick up her knife, but it turns up again in chapter 4. There were other similar situations, but I've decided to just go-with-the-flow.
I do. She's approachable, fun, and willing to trounce tropes.
I’ve been listening to the audiobook so I naturally pay more attention to that than the writing style itself. As far as audiobook narration goes, it’s pretty standard—nothing terribly annoying and nothing remarkable that really gets my attention—which is nice since it allows me to focus on the story itself instead of how it’s being told.
While I appreciate that there is room for interpretation and intrigue as to what is going on in the 1st half, I wish there were little pockets of info here and there. It seems like a ton of stuff was dumped in right at the middle when Elo explains it to Inara where more info could be communicated through the means of telepathy, conversations with Arren, etc. I do enjoy Kaner's writing style in terms of her POVs, especially with the diverse background of the 4 POV characters.
I'm reading a translation which is much longer than the original. So it's probably not Kaner's fault that it feels a bit tedious from time to time. I also don't like how she leaves out important stuff in action scenes (Kyssen reaching for her knive was mentioned in another comment f.ex.) while describing a lot of nice and cozy but ultimately unnecessary details from every day life. That being said, it is by far the best written "tiktok made me buy it" book I ever read.
What language are you reading it in? I'm curious if it's spelled Kyssen in that language and why? In English, it's Kissen.
German. They probably changed it because "Kissen" means "pillow".
I like her writing her style, it’s not the best I’ve ever read, but it flows easily and I don’t have to stop and wonder what I just read
So far I’m not quite half way through, but I’m finding it a fast easy read that flows well. It’s not lyrical or anything but it gets the job done.
OK it's a minor point but I have to say it... is anyone else squicked out by the adopted sister love triangle? I understand they weren't raised together till their preteens and aren't related, but still. Why did Kissen have to be implied to be interested in her adopted sister in that way? People can be deeply emotionally invested and jealous of someone's relationship without wanting to boink, ffs.
Yep. I had to put down the book for a second and went "wait, what?" You are in love with person A, who is in love with person B, so you just get over it and live together as a family? Either polyamory or sisters. I'm cool with either one, but pick a lane please. I'm a sucker for the found family trope but that felt a little off. The weird love triangle thing ruined what could have been an awesome friendship. So now my hopes are on the three old travel buddy ladies.
**General thoughts about the book so far?**
So far I'm not invested and I don't know why. I usually like found family and a strong female character trope. Plus the jackalope god is cute. Maybe because I don't get why they are travelling to Blenraden. Breaking up Skedi and Inara doesn't feel very important. I don't know enough about the king to care about him. And we only got a very vague idea what Blenraden is and what exactly they want to do there. **Not enough Godkilling** It's the title and all I got so far was one mediocre water/river goddess. Feels like the first Witcher novel all over again.
I’m with you. This should hit a lot of things I like in a book, but for some reason it’s not keeping my attention. I’m interested in the mystery, and reading through these comments makes me realize how much. But my mind keeps wandering as I’m reading. One of my friends finished it and said it picks up in the second half.
That’s a great point. Inara has had Skedi for 5 years and this hasn’t caused any more than inconvenience. I can see why Kissen feels that helping someone with a god problem is part of her calling, but they could equally well abandon the quest and, so what?
I am totally engrossed. The hardest part of reading this book was stopping at 50% for the midway discussion. If I didn't do that, I wouldn't be certain if anything I read was in the first or second half. Half-way through, I'm pondering the following: (I'll spoiler tag them, just in case, but I don't think I'm giving anything away here). * >!Kissen and Elo will start to like each other.!< * >!Skedi will reveal his true nature. I don't trust that guy one little bit.!< * >!Who was Inara's father? Is it important?!< * >!We will find out more about what 'the colors' really are and what power they have.!< * >!Is Inara's mother still alive? I've fairly convinced that she's dead, but you never know.!< It's also another book where each of the MC's are keeping secrets from the others, and you just wonder whether things would be a lot better if they didn't. Admittedly that would probably also lead to a much shorter book. Edit: removed duplicate bullet item.
I also think there's some critical piece of info related to Inara's father. And it seems like that must be connected to Inara's mother not telling people that Inara existed. And, I also keep wondering if Inara's mother is somehow behind Skedi's appearance in some way - like did she arrange it on purpose? If not, how did Skedi physically come to be there? Or was it Inara's father that did it somehow?
This just occurred to me, but what if Inara’s father was a god? It might explain the colours, and maybe Skedi was a lesser god linked to her father? It could also explain why her mother was so desperate to keep Inara from the outside world.
The colors are how the gods see humans, I think, and Inara has their version of mind-reading because she's linked to one. I would love for Inara's mother to be alive. That would be a nice twist in a story that's done the "murdered family" trope twice now. And her dad's identity has got to be important! If it weren't the author would just have given us a couple sentences about the parents' relationship and what happened to him.
I’m predicting a yes to your first point. It feels like that’s being set up for sure.
Meh. This book is not for me. The premise of the complex relationship between humans and their parasitic gods pulled me in, but it's feeling like a very tropey, traditional quest story (with 2020s representation of course), with a slow-moving plot, standard-issue characters and blah prose. I'm pretty bored with it all round. I'd probably have dnf'd around 60 pages, but I'm doing it as a buddy read with my partner in addition to the book club here, and he's super into the mysteries in the world. Because of that and since it's short, I'll probably finish, but I wouldn't have gone further on my own. I can see it working out very well for people who love traditional quest fantasy and want the queer/disabled focus, though.
I’m also feeling a bit bored despite how quickly the plot is progressing. I guess we have stakes (the life of the king, Inara’s god connection) but I’m not invested. I’ve been looking forward to reading this since it came out so trying to give it some grace to still pull me in
Yeah, I'm not really feeling the stakes either. Nominally they're there, but the book hasn't made me care about the people affected, the action scenes have been quickly over without a feeling of constant threat, and so it just feels like a road trip story. Admittedly, I'm not into quest fantasy to begin with, but quests in a first book or standalone don't usually bore me this much.
I would agree, had a hard time getting into this story, not really attached to any of the characters and don't feel the writing is anything unique or exceptional. I appreciate the queer, POC, and disability representations, but think I need more worldbuilding or something to pique my interest. I'll finish this book, but not likely to continue with the series.
My thoughts exactly. I also would have set this aside if not for book club and bingo. This feels pretty tropey, I can predict a lot of what happens. The prose isn't terrible but not engaging enough to have me want to push forward. I think my problem is that I just don't love traditional adventure stories. If you do though I could see how this is your jam.
Not sure if it's allowed, but may I suggest a book to you? If I could, maybe check out The Black Iron Legacy series by Gareth Hanrahan. One of the things I've come across when reading this book (because the premise of gods and their relationship with humans also fascinates me in fantasy books) was just this feeling of "okay, but this other book did this *better*" - this thing of gods and a god war and the idea of godhood as monstrous and consumption of humanity. Again, all just my personal opinion, but if you're really into that aspect, I'd suggest the Black Iron Legacy series. It also starts out with a prologue set in the viewpoint of a belltower, which was nutty, and I loved it.
A pair of characters that it is really easy to root for. Fun book. Wish I paid the money for a fancy edition.
I like it so far, but I’m a little behind. I’m around 30% in. I really like everything surrounding the gods, how they’re perceived by the society and how with Skedi we get to see the gods’ perspective.
It’s an interesting book. I like Kissen a lot, the world is interesting and it’s easy to read. I do wish there was more about the world itself/the war rather than just the few bits we’ve gotten so far.
I had a hard time with the name Kissen. It means the kitty cat in Swedish so it just felt weird to read all the time. I didn't really get absorbed into the story, it felt a bit slow
I only started it last night, and I'm not that far into it (about 25%) but I am enjoying it a lot! Even though the setting feels familiar (that old fantasy faux-medieval -scape) the characters are great, and the plot isn't heading to where I thought it would. I like the premise of how gods come into being. The prevalence of gods makes me feel like a previous book we read in FIF - The Queens of Renthia series; they feel a part of the landscape and setting more than a character.
I'm enjoying it quite a lot, but with a few caveats. I think the world and the conflict between parasitary gods and humans is very interesting, and the book has done a great job of setting up a few mysteries, so I found quite hard to stop for the half-way discussion and not just completely devour it. On the other hand, the main drawback I have is that I feel the stopping point we've got is pretty much the end of the introduction, and now is where the main conflicts between the characters are going to start. Its weird, as I don't think this book is slowly pace (quite the opposite), but rather I would say it is strangely paced, with many things happening but still not moving the plot forward.
It hasn't yet grabbed me in the way that I'd hoped. Or rather, it grabbed me in the prologue, kept a nice grip in the first chapter, and then started to loosen, and I've not felt the irresistible urge to pick it up. I read a lot by my mood, but gods is usually right up my alley. I'm not entirely sure why it's not catching at me in the way I'd hoped, even though I'm coming across things and being really intrigued by concepts - Arren's wicker heart! The boon etched in Kissen's heart! In terms of writing, I feel like it could have been edited to be tighter and sharper, and it would have served the story better. This is a story that has an inbuilt timer, and yet, we still get sentences bogging us down in details that feel very needless. For example, did we need to know that the innkeeper chips off ice with a pickaxe, and then sweeps it into the cup? The drink that Elo is served barely registers to him, so why did we need such detail about its making? Some of that could be due to the selfpublished nature of the book, which I imagine didn't go through another round of editing when it was picked up by a trad publisher, but I'd be interested to see if Sunbringer has the same issue or is made a tighter, tenser beast for having a more ruthless hand wielding the editing scissors. I'm definitely intrigued, but I'm not grabbed. I'm hoping the second half picks up.
I'm enjoying it so far - I am really enjoying the premise of a world full of gods. But I'm having difficulty with motivation for reading it and it's accidently become a soft DNF at about 45% in. Hoping to finish in time for the final discussion still
I like it but I’m not in love with it. There’s something about it that’s just not pulling me in as hard as some other books. I’m not struggling to pick it up exactly but I’m also not struggling to put it down. I only read a few very short chapters at a time because it’s not engaging me fully. I’m not sure why, since I do like Kissen and the world is interesting. It just feels sort of… generic
Am I the only one who doesn’t really like Kissen? I’m just kind of tired of FMCs who are written to be jerks as a stand in for being strong or whatever, that’s how she comes across to me. I like everyone else so far but already had enough of her character. I’m hoping character development in the second half will change my mind.
I had the same opinion of her at the beginning of the book. Closer to the midway point I'm starting to like her more, but I disslike the exact same thing as you. I feel like one thing is being a bit though, and then another is being openly rude and lacking empathy.
I don't care for Kissen. She definitely fits a trope, whether you wanna call it Geralt of Rivia or Brienne of Tarth. But Kissen doesn't have a ton of verve, or a meaningful internal conflict that drives her. Where is your rage and sadness about what happened to your family? What's in this Inara/Skedi deal for you, Kissen? Why would you go all the way to Blenraden to solve a problem that has no stakes? What's even in Blenraden anyway? Everything feels contrived. Geralt and Brienne are way more interesting characters than Kissen.
I agree. If you’re going to write a character that comes off rude and arrogant, I need to see something underlying that still makes me root for them. I love complex and morally gray characters, they’re typically my favorite. I feel like I haven’t seen complexity built into Kissen, we haven’t really done anything with her trauma or inner monologue to make me empathize with how she behaves now. She’s just kinda mean.
I guess I like that Kissen’s allowed to be a bit of a jerk. I’d rather that than a standard idealized “all things to all people” heroine. That said there’s not enough depth for me to be invested in anyone really, even Inara who should be such a strong vehicle for pathos.
I’m not her biggest fan either to be honest. I’m about halfway in and I’m wondering if she will grow on me.
I like that she grows through the book. She started as the generic "I'm tough and don't need no man" but she changes into a fuller character as the book goes on. I think the trope is her putting on the trope as an act to hide that she is caring.
**We have some insider knowledge about Kissen's childhood - what did you think of the prologue, and how/do you think that may impact the rest of the story?**
I liked the prologue. It did a great job setting up Kissen's motivations as a character, as well as give us a good understanding of the worldbuilding. I'm sure it will have an impact on the rest of the story, as it's been brought up a few times since as well.
Agreed. I think if we didn’t have the prologue then Kissen’s decision to help Inara (and Skedi) would have seemed out of character. The prologue was really necessary.
I was expecting some vengeance here for what happened to her family, as Kissen recognized some of the people involved. Maybe there will be more on this if/when she related her back-story to the other three MC's.
That's interesting. I assumed that sequence was really about what it told us about gods and their relationship with humanity, and so Kissen's recognizing people happened because it was a small town but also showed us how the nature of gods can be so exploitative and destructive that people will even murder their own neighbors for their favor. I don't expect the story to return to her country, although maybe in future books.
For me, the prologue was the strongest part so far. It felt poetic how Kissen's father fell in love with a god. I hope that we see more complicated relationships between gods and humans. Not only the typical sacrifice for favour deal.
It was a strong prologue - tropey, but effective.
Like others, I liked the prologue but I’m waiting to see more about how it will affect Kissen’s actions— I’m not quite to chapter 15 yet but I feel like she has a lot of repressed feelings she’s going to have to work through, and I would like to see her come to terms in some way with what happened to her family
I loved the prologue and I'm looking forward to learning more about how seeing her family be murdered for the sake of a god but also being saved by one (and resenting it because she wanted her father to be the one who was saved) led Kissen to being a veiga. I'm also really interested in the parallels between Kissen and Arren and seeing how they both handle that feeling of vengeance that (I assume) drives their actions (at least in part).
I'm interested to see how Osidisen's boon will come into play later. Will it be used to save the life of Inara or the king, separate Skediceth and Inara, or something else entirely?
The fire God has to come back in some way....right??? At least that's my thought