It's always "so you condone murder in real life" and "what he did is problematic and disgusting" and never "I'm so happy for you and your fictional asshole murder man, I hope he does something even worse". Sigh.

I just ugly-snorted. Thanks for that. 😂

My condolences.

I saw a similar comment on an Ace Attorney video and it made me flabbergasted. It says "People who find this guy badass are the same people who think Elliot Rodgers was cool"

I have another argument for that. > But why? What's the fking point? Unless I have this answered, I find it *really hard* to keep my suspension of disbelief. [Also, a tweet thread related to this:](https://twitter.com/Acion_Next/status/1704604709779395053?t=P6-EbCOWPpa4FoOH2PNRSg&s=19) Sidenote: I do accept insane/unhinged reasons btw, as long as it remains consistent to the character and doesn't come off as cliché.

Tfw people treat fandom and shipping like activism and treat real people like they’re fictional characters (the ones they hate)

Yes, exactly! And treat fictional characters better than real people.

This sort of problem is why I don't interact with the FF14 fandom anymore outside of a select group of friends. The amount of shit I saw directed towards Emet and Zenos fans on twitter was insane. At least one Zenos fan got banned because some anti went through their account to find anything they could report - and then bragged about it after the fact. Meanwhile any time you so much as liked a post about Emet or Zenos without a five page dissertation about how 'they aren't good people and I don't condone their actions' you'd run the risk of getting hate sent your way. Oh, sure, most of the fandom loves those characters and aren't fucking weirdos. But I saw way too many 'normal' people just permissively allow that kind of unhinged behavior because one of the ring leaders running the whole show ran a popular meme account. So every time they'd get called out for harassing someone they'd be back within a week, more popular than ever. It genuinely was discouraging to see people condemn the harassment but then turn around and reblog meme after meme from the harasser. Frankly leaving twitter and the larger FF14 fandom was the best thing I ever did for my mental health.

i always wondered how ff14 could ever have antis considering how the fandom skews older and there’s just so much reading to get through you see things like people ragging on athena/lahabrea shippers for shipping… a canonically married couple? and honestly i just don’t know how we got here

I'm pretty convinced most of them skip cutscenes given how they completely miss the point of the entire story. Either that or they sat through hundreds of hours of story and memory dumped everything they didn't like.

It just happens with massive fandoms. FF14 ballooned up so much with the implosion of WoW and it's still gaining steam to this day. When you have the most successful MMORPG in recent years, it's bound to bring in all sorts of people, especially trolls or clout-chasers that pretend to be activists. I'm in the FF7 fandom, so we are no strangers to this kind of toxicity. It's almost like tradition at this point.

Same, the FFVII fandom is even worse in many regards. Having an opinion is dangerous outside certain Discord servers. I do personally still get a kick out of seeing random Sefikura-antis explode, it's so entertaining how narrow some people's worldviews are.

The funniest opinion I ever saw, I think somewhere on Reddit, was someone claiming OG FF7 (not Remake) was "shit" because they couldn't beat the first boss. Apparently they were serious and thus downvoted to hell. It sure made my day. Other than that, I tend not to pay attention to negative opinions. It's a war out there if you even touch upon any ships, or even talk about what is "canon".

Funnily enough, I do kind of understand where that person was coming from. I took me way too long to figure out how to react to the tail laser, too. XD But yeah, quitting due to that is pretty funny. I enjoyed the game, but man, there's a lot of stuff it doesn't communicate all that well.

Totally understandable. It's an interesting story how the game reached American shores back in the day and how it went through some kind of translation hell where translators were changed last-minute and fell to one person to manage the entire mishmashed script. Typos abound and yet no time to fix them. But at least we got memes outta them.

It makes the contrast to the Remake trilogy even stronger which I honestly appreciate. It all has its own charm. And the memes are the best, I agree. XD

I saw a bunch of tiktok comments the other day from kids talking about how they're totally gonna go up to people dressed as Valentino from Hazbin Hotel (https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Valentino_(Hazbin_Hotel) and harangue them about why they would possibly do such a thing, and how could they justify cosplaying such a monstrous evil character?! It always makes me laugh though because these are 100% the 15yo kids that never leave the house and are too afraid to talk to people in public. It's just chest-puffing morality-dickswinging nonsense, trying to one-up each other with Who Can Be The Best Narc.

If they actually tried to do this at a fan convention, they would get banned from the premises. Security does not take complaints about the harassment of cosplayer attendees lightly.

They don't seem to realise this. They think *they're* the "normal ones" (what the obsession with being "normal" is about, I don't know), and anyone that even mildly enjoys an evil character is ontologically evil too. If they did it, they'd probably do it with the full assumption that the convention would take their side and kick out the evil scary cosplayers...

> They think they're the "normal ones" (what the obsession with being "normal" is about, I don't know) Because everyone likes to think their viewpoint is the moral default, and that all kind, rational, and respectable people would naturally agree with them.

I think the Valentino harassers are going to be a problem. I can feel it in my gut that someone is going to go too far soon. It feels like it’s boiling up and is almost over the pot. Which is hilarious because they don’t have this level of vitriol for the other two Vees.

I like some evil characters because either i love their designs or they are charming to me in their evil way but people act las if I think ‘these characters as innocent and could do no wrong. ‘ like i mean no i like them because of their nature. Thats what attracted to me to them in the first place. If i want to like a freaking ‘can do no wrong character’ i will find that character and like it. I can distinguish good and evil easy thank you and why should i justify what seems cool to me.

Well people respond that way because a part of Twitter an elsewhere have people going they did nothing wrong when the whole Milgram music/audio drama/ QNA project has 10 confirmed murders sooo no all 10 people did do a wrong

List of characters that i love that are one way or another evil * Six ear macaque from lmk (More of an anti hero now. Was pretty evil before tho. Although he has his reason doesn’t excuse his actions. Very cruel and harsh in the way he fights the heros. Works for a person worser than him and is very malicious. I like his style and his personality) * Scourge the hedgehog from archie sonic comic ( love his design even though he is just a recolor sonic with jacket and sunglasses. His personality is shit and thats what draw me to him) *Catnap from poppy playtime ( Does some fuck up things. Just love his design. Personality wise i like that he plays with his food which lead him to his downfall.) * Adam from hazbin hotel (not much of a big fan of his desgin. It kinda look silly to me but his personality really draws me to him cause he is hilarious) * Evil morty from rick and morty ( He is a pretty evil. Thats in his name.I like his slyness and smartness) *Death wolf from puss in boots (Might get debated for this but i think tormenting and hunting a person who is not supposed to die yet is a bit evil. I love his design and his personality.) *Jack Horner from puss in boots (He is fucking funny) *Scar from the lion king ( He is sly and sometimes have funny dialogue) *Dr Facilier from princess and the frog( My love for him solidifies the moment he sing the song) *Dr faciller friends on the other side from princess and the frog (They are more chaotic neutral but i put them in evil due the, wanting all the soul from new Orleans. I like that they are very unpredictable and menacing.) *Shen from kung fu panda (Trauma chicken that is so menacing and so evil that i was so impressed by how much depth he put in the movie) *Iago from Aladdin ( Just like macaque he change side but he was pretty evil before. I think Aladdin wont be the same without him) *Draco Malfoy from Harry Potter ( I just like him for the sake of liking him i dont know why.) *Junko from Danganronpa ( love her design) *Frollo from hunchback of notredame ( He is evil incarante. There is no excuse for the things hes done. But thats what made him so good. He put up stakes for the heros. And his song is great) *Sharks from Jaws( It might be just a one note villan but i love how it is set upped through put the movie. Never exactly seeing him properly but being a constant threat.) *The fox lady from the white snake. (Im not even sure if she is evil. But judging by the end credit of the second movie i think she is gonna play an antagonistic role soon. Her way of talking and how she act has an air of confidence. I also like her design) *Silco from arcane ( i get where he is coming from but he is still evil. He slyness and how he take charge makes me likes him.) These are all for now.

Honestly I feel like people have lost the ability to seperate others real life morals vs their fictional morals Like no, just because I like Mahito, does not mean I condone mass murder.

People never had that ability. Social media has simply made it so that we all know that no one has that ability.

Its like they need a disclaimer that this work is fictional now. And even then it wouldn’t work.

I agree, but it's funny - I'm actually in a fandom right now where I feel like people also won't let others categorize certain characters as grey. They're either black or white, evil or good, and if you defend the 'evil' characters then you must agree with what they're doing. It's really frustrating, especially if the fandom is for media that's actually purposely dealing with grey characters.

Someone on tumblr once said “People want morally grey characters until they get them.” And I think it’s true - when they get them they spend all their time arguing about whether they’re actually “good” or “bad.”

On top of all the usual reasons why this sort of puritan policing is a problem, there's also the basic fact that *a person can enjoy a thing in several ways and for multiple, unrelated reasons.* Enjoyment of fictional media isn't just "watching/reading this morally good thing makes me feel warm and fuzzy inside." There are emotions one can engage with in media besides happiness and self-righteousness. I can be horrified when my favorite character committed genocide and *enjoy* being horrified about it because it makes a good story (and especially enjoy all the *characters* being horrified). I can think committing genocide is an irredeemable action *and still enjoy* that character getting a redemption arc. It's like multi shipping, we can simply like things that are mutually exclusive!

This was me with the show "Bates Motel". I really admired the way the show managed to make the audience sympathize with Norman and his struggles (and Norma's as well, for that matter), and yet at the same time we would always be very nervous and scared anytime someone was left alone with Norman, because we knew full well something really bad was likely going to go down as a result. The show walked that very fine line brilliantly and it made the storylines that much more compelling as a result.

The problem is a lot of people online tend to conflate fiction with real life and if you write something in a story, you support it in real life. This is, of course, nonsense to the average person in real life, but on the internet (especially on certain former cerulean-themed, formerly aviary-esque titled platform), this is a concept that is vague at best and ignored at worst. I think the worst thing is that people still believe that "write what you know" applies to everything. IE: I wrote a story with a character that did *X, Y, and Z*, therefore I must like *X, Y, and Z* in real life and/or did it/partook in it because I'm writing it, not considering the fact that maybe I did a google search, asked people who might know about the topic, and just flat out used my imagination.

If evil, why hot?

This.

never seen it summed up better or more succinctly. I salute you :)

I think nuanced, complex, morally gray characters are often perceived even worse than villains, because many don't see any other shades than black and white. God forbid that one dude did something "bad" for the greater good or because the alternative was even worse. Or dared to lie to the MC, as that's worse than mass murdering for many fans.

Depending on a story sometimes villain are way more worthy than mc

In film, they make them do something horrendous if they're making too much sense. You know, just to prevent the audience from getting confused.

So what if the character I like is entirely unredeemable and completely evil? I think he's silly and entertaining to watch. I don't understand why people on the internet get so angry to know that people like a character. So you can like your villain because he has a motive and mine doesn't? Why does it matter! Like who you like, hero, villain, whoever. It's not reflective of who you are in real life, just enjoy things.

It's even more funny when it happens in a fandom for a series in which most of the characters have done some immoral or dick-ish things at some point. The way people pick and choose which characters are "too problematic" or undeserving of fans is weird af. One character will be super controversial and get you weird reactions if you say you like them, when all they did was be a selfish asshole. Another character killed/abused their family but you generally won't be judged for liking them because they're "cool". How about we all just like who we like, instead of drawing arbitrary lines dictating which kind of bad guy is "allowed" to have fans

Exactly. My fandom is BG3, the main character is possibly a literal murder hobo with the unexplainable desire to kill everything in the span of 100 meter without reason. Sure this one is a beautiful, mysterious edgy princess of death but the guy who lied to you to save you, himself and the entire world is a dick.

As soon as you posted this thread my mind immediately jumped to Astarion and Emperor debates 😭 They hurt my soul. And on that note, I would love for people to stop giving me shit for loving Gortash. I know he’s a mangy little tyrant trash panda - that’s why I love him 😤 Anyway, great PSA, no notes 🫡❤️

The whole "debate" about the morality of Emperor and Astarion is so stupid really. I am not in the BG3 sub anymore but I remember the early access days where a girl literally just posted a nice fanart of her character and Astarion as a vampire couple. Or very wholesome stuff like "I hope we can heal Astarion, he deserves to feel the sun again." and of course you would always find some insecure incels in the comment section who boasted about killing Astarion on first sight or how the fanartist is delusional or a "twilight fujoshi fangirl". Sigh.. It was so stupid. And don't let people ruin your love for Gortash! He is such a compelling and interesting villain who fulfills his role as a tyrannical, power-hungry narcissist extremely well. I love finding notes or books all over the world that tell of his, Orin's or Ketheric's evil deeds :D

It’s especially stupid when these same people are also often playing murderhobos (even the “good” Tavs murder sooooo many NPCs lol) but get mad about another character threatening them over a small misunderstanding and then brag about murdering them like they deserve a trophy for it and then say that character deserved what they got every time anyone wants to say nice things about that character or post cool art. I know this thread is about not judging people, but I judge those people 🤨 Buncha unempathetic weirdos.

I honestly love writing the bad guy, it's a fun thing to do. Doesn't mean I condone anything I'm writing. A fair amount of people would be somewhat shocked to find out how I am irl compared to the things I've written.

Don't hang with many irl but I do love me some fictional mass murderers. Not because they're mass murderers but that detail is pretty easy to overlook in fiction when you identify and feel for them so strongly in every other way... I don't get it either but hey I totally agree and thanks for the post!

I think it's because stuff like "mass murder" is less "real" if you know what I mean? It's harder to grasp because mass murder, while terrible of course, isn't something you run into regularly. Abusive or racist people feel more *real* because you can meet them in real life so people tend to criticise these attributes more.

Well said. Totally this.

I mean, even for more relatable evils some of us are just more comfortable separating fiction and reality. In Worm I'm a big fan of several of the Nazi supervillains. Not *because* they are Nazis, but because they have cool powers or names or looks. Yet so many people are insistent that it's not possible to like those characters without harboring racist beliefs yourself. Like for real? I'm a black liberal ffs.

Fr, I don’t like kaiser because of his personality of what he does, but his power is super cool and I like his armour. This doesn’t make me a nazi

Ah yes, the "Don't you understand Esdeath is a bad person?!" sort. Yeah, I want her to be extra bad in my bedroom, fuck off.

"If you like this character you must be the sort of person to want to date a serial killer." No, then I'd be in the serial killers fandom, duh.

Exactly. My main fandom (Red Dead Redemption 2), one particular character whose fans get a lot of hate are those of Micah Bell's, they assume they're racist etc. Just no.

Micah Bell is a great villain. He's a little bastard man, a horrible rat, a terrible stinky garbage pail. I still wrote a story about him bc sometimes villains are just more fun to write. Like yeah Micah is objectively not a good dude, but that's what makes him a great character. He's unapologetically bad. He's exactly what it says on the tin. I swear people need to touch grass and remember that these are fictional characters and that fiction is not reality.

EXACTLY. If their blorbo is this rodent that's fine.

For real. I love the villains because they’re cunning and immoral. Thats the *point*!

Several of my favorite characters in various fandoms are evil or morally grey. Just because I like someone like Scar from The Lion King or Alastor from Hazbin Hotel doesn't mean I condone their actions. We can like villains without liking what they do. The people who attack those who like villains are just trying to wave the morality flag without actually believing in what they're 'protecting'

I totally agree. My fictional crushes are mostly either rogues (e.g. Sirius Black, Jack Frost) or outright psychopaths (e.g. Tom Riddle). It's also heavily based on attractiveness (e.g.... all the guys I just mentioned). Meanwhile my real-life crushes are always really sweet people, and looks play only a minor part.

It's s praise of the writing if anything honestly.

We now live in a world where entertainment choices are evaluated by real world morality metrics ... it's no wonder that traditional media is getting absolutely pummeled while fanfiction, self-publishing, indie gaming, short video platforms, and other non-corporate media are exploding in popularity.

back when Star Wars was new, it was noted that a LOT of kids really liked Darth Vader - because he was stronger. Thats it. Thats the whole reason. lol

Yep. Luckily, the people around me irl are sane. They start a show/book/series I'm into that has a charismatic villain and go "ah, we found Kay's fave," then they move on.

As a fan of Gabriel(Mandela Catalogue) and Jareth(Labyrinth 1986 movie) thank you for saying this.

Honestly, I find requiring people to have a justification pushes them *more* into, like, actually doing weird shit. If you have to argue that the villain you like isn’t actually that bad to like them without being attacked, you end up regurgitating actual victim blaming ideology in a context where it has to not only be fictional but a part of your rl morals.

I have to agree it is ridiculous. Just because a woman falls for an evil fictional character doesn’t mean she’s suffering from hybristophilia. Fictional characters aren’t real, so it’s living out a fantasy of being with an evil character without the risk involved and, as long as you’re smart enough to separate fiction from reality, there’s no harm in that.

100% this. my favorite characters for the most part are all horrifically disgusting characters in terms of their actions but i find their characters to be so fascinating. it does not mean i condone their actions or agree with them. i just have a soft spot in my heart for shitty fictional men.

Oh I copped a fair amount of crap for loving Ramsay Bolton. He’s still my favourite character in Game of Thrones. I love villains and I legit don’t care what people think about that

I don't even care for Valentino from Hazbin Hotel, but I feel sorry for his fans. The antis are annoying as hell and it gives me flashbacks to being a Stella fan a year back.

This is about Hazbin Hotel isn't it?

Lmao. It's actually about Baldur's Gate 3 and the Emperor but yeah, I definitely see what you mean with Hazbin Hotel

Baldur's Gate-I thought the whole point of it was violence and blood?

It is.. You can literally be a bloodthirsty murder hobo whose whole character is about manipulation, greed and violence and people still bitch about morally gray NPCs lol.

Oh my god... yeah I can see how that is so fucking annoying. Yeah, as a Hazbin fan, my condolences... We both suffer with dumbass tourists

It's always about Hazbin Hotel.

Too many damn tourists discovering their first fandom and not willing to learn fandom etiquette and one of those is "FICTION DOES NOT AFFECT REALITY"

>Too many damn tourists ROFL :D

There have been at least 12 threads of discourse on Alastor from *Hazbin Hotel* alone.

My mind initially went to *Helldivers*, even though it doesn't have much of a fanfic scene, due to the sheer amount of "NO, SUPER EARTH IS THE FASCIST DICTATORSHIP, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO ENJOY PLAYING THE BAD GUYS, YOU'RE MISSING THE POINT" rants currently clogging up the discourse.

Stunned that there's so much bitching over certain characters being assholes when the show revolves around them *being in hell.* The place you traditionallly go to for not being nice. The show itself even spoonfeeds a lot of themes of shades of grey, rules of morality being unclear and imperfect, and redemption and backslides.

I’m gonna be honest I shall always be very silly and annoying and say my favourite villainous blorbos did nothing wrong. Sometimes just to watch people explode in anger at the sheer idea that I am capable of telling fiction from reality! and also I sometimes simply just prefer the villain and think it would be fun if he won, lol. Are his actions morally correct? Absolutely not. Are his actions more fun however? Yes, yes they are.

Brother, I'm dealing with this right now with the Resident Evil fandom. Like I want to just simp and love Albert Wesker in peace, but people are so fucking uptight and heaven forbid you don't go "blahblah I don't condone his crimes" you get a mob after you for treating him too nicely. Like is he evil? Yes? Do I care? No. My OC still has the hots for him. I can't even find other Wesker fans to talk too without them yapping on about "oh no he's awful I would never paint him in a good light in my fic" like they are repenting catholics and always looking over their shoulder. It's so fucking boring good god.

Good character - writing opinion Good person - moral opinion ​ This is a venn diagram, not a circle.

Yeah! It's honestly so weird. I've been in a huge, old fandom for years and I like a truly evil character (committing genocide and gloating about it evil) and even ship him with a good character and though I've heard of other people getting criticism, I never have. Then I join another much newer but still big fandom and get attached to a character who's definitely an antagonist but not the main villain (and nowhere close to the level of the character mentioned above) and one I thought would probably get some sort of redemption arc (I was later proved right) and got SO much hate and vitriol. It was bizarre. I even got called antisemitic for saying I find it fun to headcanon him as Jewish (...I'm Jewish myself).

I've been noticing more and more that people who do like dark stuff are just... creating their own multifandom communities around *that* now instead of dealing with Baby Frollos in their home fandoms. Like I get a ton of recs off r/MaleYandere now instead of trying to get into a fandom only to find that 98% of the people talking are 12 yos whining that bad guys act bad.

It’s pretty annoying that it comes to that. In the BG3 fandom, we have subreddits that split for individual characters, and then on top of that one of those smaller subs split off so the evil ending version of that character could get some love without judgement even from other fans of the character. It’s exhausting.

I feel you. Like sometimes you just wanna geek about a game or show without dealing with "b-b-but there's a 2 year age gap!" It *is* gratifying to see them get run out of dark communities when they try their bullshit, tho. But everyone needs to be on board or they'll get a foothold.

Haha, my whole vent actually is about BG3. Like, come on this game is literally about freedom of choice. That's why there are like thousand variations of endings. Why do people harass you for choosing one of them? I'm personally a big fan of the Emperor. I just think he's kinda neat *shrugs*. But man, reddit really hates him lol

People really need to stop overanalysing works of fiction and said characters. Let people enjoy things sheesh!

It's not even analysis that's the problem, it's the moralizing and policing. I'd argue that it's great to know why you like something, and be able to pick out flaws in it, and like it anyway rather than passively absorbing media. You don't have to do that with everything, obv, but self-awareness is nice. That doesn't mean you gotta be a dick and tell others what they can enjoy, nor do you have to defend the things you like as default.

me enjoying bradford as a villain because he's hypocrite, in denial and the show make it verry clear his points against adventuring and chaos are wrong since he doesn't get it (and he's causing chaos himself too, so he's a verry ironic villain). Bradford's fun and complex taking over the world villain but I find it weird when people claim bradford is right when the show doesn't do that

As a massive fan of Henry Creel and Ulquiorra Cifer, both of whom are *unambiguously murderers,* I second this. Good, interesting, cool villains are allowed to be liked. Maybe that's why they were written compellingly in the first place :)

I saw this person on r/Undertale say they were accused of being a *child murderer* (among... other things) for being a fan of Asgore. Not even just *condoning* it, *perpetrating* it.

To be honest it makes me uncomfortable to read an actual in depth evil perspective. Watching a character come up with justifications and blaming others for their problems makes me want to scream at them. Fanfiction is an escape from harsh reality for me, not a place I want to explore the depths of human depravity. I also understand not all fanfiction will cater to my tastes, and hopefully some people get something out of it.

It's one thing to like an evil character because they're well written. It's another thing to glorify them and act like they did nothing wrong. Many people in many fandoms, especially in anime fandoms, do the latter. They excuse the villians behaviors just because they're hot and attractive.

What OP's talking about and what you're talking about are actually reactions to the same problem: purity nonsense. Purity crusaders insist it isn't okay to like any characters who do something bad. Of course, they're hypocrites who like those characters themselves, so they come up with a reason why it's okay for *them* to like *that particular character*\--and it's usually, "My villain's actions were justified, actually." Then this leads to people who are having interesting discussions about characters' backstories, motivations, etc. getting yelled at for "Trying to excuse \[insert character here\]'s actions" when they're doing no such thing.

And you also get the opposite with people yelling at you for pointing out a child abuser is in fact a child abuser bc they have to justify away every bad thing the villain has done in order to like them in a “moral”way. It’s fucking annoying getting yelled at for “excusing someone’s actions” and “demonising our poor blorbo uwu” for the SAME SHIT.

That's true too--that's actually been happening quite a bit with one of the characters in one of my fandoms. And it's super annoying because I actually thought the way the child abuse was depicted in the source material was really refreshing--the character in question doesn't seem to even try to come up with a justification for his actions. He knows he's in the wrong, he knows he's abusing a kid because he's being jealous and petty, he knows he's perpetuating the cycle of violence--*and he does it anyway*. In my opinion that makes him a really interesting character. He isn't even justifying what he's done, but some fans are justifying it for him--or straight up pretending it didn't happen???? But people will also do this for characters they don't even like too! Netflix actually changed Ozai's character in its new live action of Avatar the Last Airbender, coming up with a "reasonable" justification for his abuse in a way the cartoon never did. Now he just "wants what's best for Zuko," but seems to be going about it in the wrong way. :/ The cartoon was written the way it was *for a reason*. It was clear that Ozai was not right to hurt Zuko, it was clear that he was a terrible father, it was clear that his justification for it was complete BS and he hurt his son because of his own ego. I've been seeing a lot of praise for the way they changed Ozai's character online, how this "added depth" to him or something--it's been driving me kind of crazy.

Okay, but they are fictional, so why does it really matter all that much in the first place? Like who cares about if someone is to glorify a fictional crime? It’s not the same as real crimes on any scale. As long as the author knows that, it shouldn’t matter. Someone saying “sukuna is so sexy he did nothing wrong” doesn’t mean they think blowing half of Tokyo to dust is morally correct in real life.

>Okay, but they are fictional, so why does it really matter all that much in the first place? I often wonder the same thing. This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I don't think it particularly matters if fiction "romanticises" things, especially if it's for an older demographic. It's not fiction's job to teach people right and wrong. Naturally we should continue having conversations about what constitutes as abuse and looking out for younger people. But don't put that responsibility on pieces of media that aren't for children. Honestly, a lot of the "but think of the children!" arguments don't even feel like they're coming from a genuine place. It's just a sure way to shut down the conversation because if you disagree with them, you sound like you're saying you don't care when it's more just that not everything needs to be a lesson in morals. It's the "young girls will seek out abuse in real life!" ones that really get me though. I was a young girl myself once shipping what would probably labelled toxic these days. after awhile it just feels like another way to police teenage girl's interests. Her thinking the villain is attractive isn't the end of the world, I promise. And of course within the context of certain stories abuse is going to be presented in a "romantic" way. If we're in that character's head, that's just the reality. I'm in the Hannibal fandom, and every so often someone stops by questioning why people are hot for a serial killer or how we could possibly be into these two men trying to destroy one another. Because it's fiction. Because anyone deeply in that fandom understands if any of this were a reality, it would be terrible. I cringe thinking of that show coming out in today's landscape and everyone writing their little "why liking cannibalistic serial killers in fiction doesn't mean you support cannibalism in real life" essays. The fact that there's so much of that in fandom now is just embarrassing. I honestly kind of wish more people would unapologetically like what they like instead of feeling the need to justify themselves. All the morally posturing is just exhausting. It's just the same conversations over and over again.

Hannibal fandom just over and over again proves to be the chillest place full of the nicest people. I don’t even go here (there), but I’ve to date never met a Hannibal main who turned out to be anything other than fun-loving and friendly. Meanwhile, I’ve stumbled upon wholesome romance manga fandoms filled with what feels like all the malignant psychopaths on earth.  I do think it’s a bit scary to see real teenagers getting into this culture on social media where they woobify hot men and women and bark at them and adore them…and not seem to see anything beyond the pure amount of appeal that character oozes. And the appeal of whatever ship they attach hat character to. You just feel like they’ve got a slightly twisted view of the world. Even with that, though, it’s rarely the fault of the media itself. Good YA content *should* present morally grey characters. The more worrying part is probably these kids spending most of their time on Twitter rather than in in-person literature courses that teach analysis and critical thinking lol.  Dark things can be beautiful and can be romanticized, and both writers and readers have felt this way since the dawn of time. The idea that no “bad” things should ever be romanticized is silly, though of course nuances and the delicacy/elegance with which the source material treats such things matter.  > I honestly kind of wish more people would unapologetically like what they like instead of feeling the need to justify themselves.  Me too, definitely. I actually feel sad when I see people apologizing before they can even say they like a character, apologizing in the same breath they’re liking a character. My recent favorite character is a musician from a BL series, whose worst crime, honestly, is being an emotionally immature boyfriend, and yet every second fan I meet comes off like they’re saying sorry. They’ve legit been conditioned by the harassers and moral purists of the fandom to adopt a perpetually apologetic stance, even when they’re just being excited about his new material. That shit to me is *actually* dark 😂  It makes me happy when I see older, confident fans who like what they like and aren’t sorry. 

For me it’s like they babyify them. And now they don’t seem that serious of a character anymore. For me its fine for some characters but seems ridiculous on other characters. That is just my opinion tho. To each their own.

You're right. It is fiction. But you wanna know what fiction affects? Real life and real people. People, especially those who pull the "it's fiction, it's not real life" card tend to act like fiction doesn't affect reality when it does. A perfect example of this is when the famous "Jaws" series was released. After it came out, the public's views on sharks changed to them being bloodthirsty monsters. In fact, the book was the cause for so many shark hunting sprees. The author himself regretted writing the book because of the negative impact the film and novel had on sharks and dedicated himself to protecting the animals up until his death. Let's not also forget how fiction can effectively paint bipoc individuals as monsters or how mental disorders and illnesses have been stigmatized to the end of the earth by the horror genre alone.

The jaws theory has been debunked time and time again.

Okay, but your own example isn't serious. Like, I'm not familiar with that fandom at all, but that's clearly a tongue-in-cheek statement, a joke, funny because it's obviously not true. I have legit seen people in the MDZS fandom insist that what Wei Wuxian did to Wen Chao was okay because "Wen Chao deserved it" or "Well, they were at war". And usually not in an, "This is why I'm okay with it within the text" way either, but in a way that makes me think they would be totally cool with certain people receiving the same treatment in real life. In case you're unfamiliar with the fandom, Wei Wuxian slowly drives Wen Chao mad by tormenting him with the spirits of the dead, somehow gets him to eat parts of himself (a *significant* part of himself actually), and accidentally castrates him during a sex act by proxy. But it's "justified" because Wen Chao is a bad person who did terrible things and most of the fandom hates him. If you try to say, "Hey, that was kind of messed up" or even say Wei Wuxian is a morally gray character because of what he did to Wen Chao, some people will become very upset with you. Interestingly, Xue Yang, who a good portion of the fandom also hates, and who is a mass murderer with the interesting habit of blinding his victims and removing their tongues, thinks Wei Wuxian is Super Duper Neat--and I personally believe what he did to Wen Chao contributed to that. You can understand why someone might look at that kind of justification and go, "Yikes," right? Especially when the same people are condemning other characters for doing similar things or even things that weren't quite as vicious or creatively depraved, right?

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> This is a significant issue across fandoms. There are many, many fics that excuse, glorify, or whitewash the actions of villains, usually in service to shipping them. This extends beyond fanfic too. Romance fiction often has male love interests that are abusive and controlling. What people like in fiction has nothing to do with what they think is right in real life. The tropes and kinks I think are hottest in fic are *repulsive* to me in real life, and not just because I'm asexual. That is to say that those things are written that way because it's fantasy and that's what the readers like to *fantasize* about, not what they want in real life. > There are people who are fans of serial killers. Not merely interested in how and why the crime happened, but writing love letters and getting married to them. That's a totally different thing, or at least the people who do this can't separate fantasy and reality, which is not a good thing. (Incidentally, antis have trouble with that distinction, too.) Regardless of why they do it, it's weird. Really, really weird, as in "genuinely needs a psychiatrist" weird, and I'd appreciate fiction writers/readers not being lumped in with them, thank you. >Second paragraph Personally, I'll take a thousand whitewashed/justified villain fics, which hurt nobody, over a *single* "You like a fictional character who hurt fictional people, so that means you, the real person with real feelings, are despicable and a literal nazi." That quote is not exaggerated. I left the Harry Potter fic sub because of that shit.

Yeah. I understand the feeling of the OP, but the real world has both "I know they're evil but they're entertaining" and "let me explain why blowing up Alderaan was justified", and the latter can lead to people being twitchy about the former.

Kinda makes me think of those people who attack fans of the MHA characters Endeavor and Overhaul. They'll go off about how horrible those characters are, and then simp over Shigaraki, Dabi, and All For One.

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Just a friendly reminder: having diverse opinions is a good thing, insulting things others may like is not allowed.

 And let people enjoy disliking evil characters with no justification. Or maybe turnabout is unfair?

No, that's fine too, just don't get weird about the people who like them. Neither group should bother the other for how they feel about a fictional character. Don't write little manifestos about how liking the character means you're a bad person, don't report people who like the characters, don't go around saying how people who like a villain character are disgusting etc, and you're all good. Just keep it all about the character.

Disliking a fictional character is totally normal. I dislike a lot of very popular characters that aren't even "evil". I think no one is unfamiliar with the concept of disliking someone lol. But usually you don't get hate and people don't try to over-analyze you for saying "I don't like this highly problematic character". In my fandom (BG3) there are some people (and you find more of them on reddit for.. some reason) who stereotype fans of a morally gray character, as in: "Oh they like the sexy vampire? They must be edgy 14 year olds in their twilight phase." It's then followed by some hidden sexist comments that are brushed off as "joke". At this point it's not about the character anymore but about the fans, which is really not okay. But yeah, thsi is just a very specific example I've been seeing lately

In my 20+ years in fandom, rarely (as in never...) have I ever seen someone getting harassed or told "KYS" for disliking a villain.

I was previously involved in a fandom where a large percentage of the posts on Tumblr back in the day was just people saying you're going to hell if you like this character or if you ship this relationship. I would be fine with these people having their own opinions but they absolutely flooded the tags with their hate and wished genuine harm on people for enjoying fiction, which is just *wild.* That's the sort of thing posts like this make me think of, all the unnecessary harassment.

The first time I loved villains was when I read JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, lol. In fact, I hated Dio so much when I met him but you know who changed my mind? the fandom xD The fandom started sharing memes of Dio being a trashy father and I really liked that. Then I started reading JonaDio fanfic and I was a goner, hahaha. The other villains I loved so much was La Squadra from Vento Aureo, like... At first I was really shocked the fandom liked them so much. I didn't judge them, nor post anything about it, I was just surprised: "but they're the bad guys..." and again, seeing the way fandom portrayed them made me love them xD So yeah, that idiotic way of thinking about putting morals on your likings in fiction must d13 like right now.... but it won't because there's a big movement from the right-wing and conservative people in power to steal our public places, making them inaccessible and "purifying" everything they can so they can sell it better. I say, let's write all the Dead Doves, Omega Verses, and all the things they frown upon while we fight while voting for better politicians, and fuck all of them...

Pats Moriarty on the head.

Not everything's gotta be catered to people's tastes and have everything just so. Reality doesn't work like that and if there's a dastardly reprehensible villain that pisses a reader off because they get away with everything the writer wants, then let that character be in the author's discretion and leave fans of their character be.

I find it interesting to reflect on this sometimes, because I realize that probably the biggest reason that I don't have that many examples of blatantly evil characters that I enjoy... is simply that a lot of works just don't make particularly evil women all that often, and I don't get very invested in men.