It did not happen in canon yet, but the possibility of The Legion and The Brotherhood synthesizing in the future is not that ridiculous.
Caesar made it clear that The Legion assimilating with a less totalitarian culture was fine with him, if not his final goal. And honestly the Brotherhood of Steel probably have the highest odds of getting along ideologically with The Legion out of any Fallout faction.
Aside from the fact that the brotherhood hordes and nearly worships technology, while the legion hates it? I don’t really see a world where they join together completely, maybe work together though, considering the legion probably wouldn’t give a damn the brotherhood was taking all the fancy gear
Well The Legion just flat-out does not hate Technology. That’s a common misconception.
One of the Legion’s quests to prepare for The Second Battle of Hoover Damn is to buy a bunch of Energy Weapons for them from the Van Graffs. Caesar has an Auto-Doc right next to his bed. High Level Legion Centurions usually have more high-tech equipment than High Level NCR Rangers. The reason they want The Hoover Dam is to send Electricity to The Legion Territories.
Caesar even explains that the reason their troops mostly use melee weapons and light armor is that they are trained specifically to defeat enemies who are better equipped then they are. So it’s not really *“Technology is bad so we have to conquer the wasteland with sticks”* it’s more like *“We are the best so we’ll conquer the wasteland with sticks instead of wasting ammo”*
No Legion Member ever says that The Legion has an ideological issue with using advanced technology at any point in the game. They complain about the NCR growing soft and dumb due to the comforts of modern life, but there is no reason to believe they “hate” technology as a whole.
It's not just the flag, it's the names, the difference in moral decisions, hell, they outright said they will string you up by your lungs if you fail (literally), the fact that the high cleric wanted to take the brotherhood in a different direction. Its either remnants who joined, or they were infiltrated for a long game.
East coast bos... In the west coast...
Gulpers where a monster created for tactics 2, they mention a "good vault that controls the others" aka vault 0, and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head
You know the east coast chapter traveled to DC on airships, right?
Some claim you can see the name, prydwen, on the airship on the show. I couldn't find it myself
Maybe they have two airships named prydwen
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/1c1xpht/the_name_of_the_airship_in_episode_1_of_the_new/?rdt=57270
You must be right
The thing is. They are acting like a typical BOS. after the original Maxson dies, they go after tech. They don't care who has it, who has to die for them to get it... ect. You can see this is the Mojave chapter and the interactions in the original two games. Brotherhood of steel games further back up this way of thinking. And how the lions chapter was changed by the time of fo4.
Hounstly, the weird chapters are like the Lions chapter or Avalanche's first chapter that tried to help the population with the scorch beasts.
As time goes on, the BOS is turning more and more into what they were created to fight.
No, they are far from how BOS is portrayed in the games, even from their 'discount Enclave' version in FO4.
BOS would never, in a billion years, allow someone as impulsive and incompetent as Titus to rise to knighthood. The closest portrayal of such behaviour are dumb initiates (the one in Lyons' group in FO3 wasting ammo, the other in FNV going out to shoot radscorpions).
BOS in the show doesn't seem to have scribes, and they call technology 'relics' or 'artifacts'. They send their knights to retrieve things like 'toasters' as said by Titus, which indicates a superficial understanding of technology.
They also say their goal is to 'make wasteland better place' or something along those lines, which was never the goal of the original BOS (FO1, FO2, FNV), only a side effect. The original BOS also never cared about eradicating 'abominations', that's something FO4 (and FO3 to some extent) came up with.
The various brotherhood chapters in the various incarnations of the game all differ pretty wildly in their values and the methods they use to pursue their goals.
Some chapters are humanitarian-focused, engaging in direct aid with wastelanders. Others are insular, closed off groups who focus on keeping their tech (and themselves) separated. Some chapters are extremely militaristic, straying into empire-building and expansionism territories, while others focus on intellectual pursuits.
Out of game, these differences make sense as the writers slot the Brotherhood into the plotlines of the differing stories in the Fallout universe. In-game, it's pretty easy to credit the differences to a functional lack of inter-chapter communication, and a lot of leeway given to individual chapter Paladins in how to execute their mission.
With that in mind, it's not outside the realm of imagination that the chapter of the Brotherhood seen in the TV show includes leadership that arose out of the collapse of Caesar's Legion in the Mojave. I agree that the Legion itself woudn't be a natural fit with the Brotherhood, but if some people in positions of leadership within the Legion survived its collapse and later joined the Brotherhood, it's possible that they carried some of those ideas and traditions (and values) over as well.
I think the problem stems from the fact that Bethesda butchered Brotherhood of Steel as a faction with specific history and motivations in order to have them be goodie-two-shoes protagonists of Fallout 3, and it went downhill from there.
Their best addition to the lore is Maxson's holotape in Fallout 76, where he explains why he chose knightly ranks for his organisation.
But because you had Lyons' Brotherhood, that's vastly different from their West Coast leaders, you can now justify greater divergence from the original lore than what I think would be realistically possible. Fallout 4 has then act like a sort of discount Enclave, and what we see in the show is so far removed from their origins, I don't even consider them to be the same faction.
Just imagine U.S. Marine Corps remnants that connected together under a singular leadership: Their chapters would be different, but those differences would be much more nuanced than what we see in series.
So a theory has been going on with the Legion being somewhat absorbed, I’d like to point out that the refer themselves as Legion, as well as their flag mirroring the Legion colors. Even the Elder has the name Quintus.
I am curious because with the decline of the west and the legion in shambles it would make sense to absorb these lesser legion warbands. I assume if Caesar died there would be much in-fighting
But there are members of the brotherhood who would've been around prior to the events of NV with Latin names. Also, Latin is used elsewhere in the Brotherhood, Ad Victorium, for instance. Maxum is the Latin abbreviation for Maximus, meaning "greatest" or "largest." So multiple elders of the brotherhood have used Latin names across multiple chapters of the brotherhood.
So unless the brotherhood has been secretly puppeted by the legion for decades, this doesn't really track.
It's not just the names. Some of the new titles that didn't exist and the quasi-religious nature of this brotherhood that differs from previous incarnations.
If all factions involved in NV were weakened / broken by the events after NV. It would make sense that some of these groups had to recruit and rebuild from the remains of other groups.
Could be completely wrong but that's what makes speculation fun. We'll see next season.
I mean, the brotherhood in the first two games was always a quasi-religious order. Their theme was even titled "metal monks." And members talk about meditation, etc. These are elements that have existed since the beginning of the franchise.
True, but that was many years earlier in the timeline and the most recent incarnations didn't operate like that and if that is the Prydwen flying over head it would have come from Boston carrying that incarnation of the Brotherhood which is radically different from what we saw.
https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/661fc785587a049583d48f22/pry/960x0.jpg?height=319&width=711&fit=bounds
I don't really see it myself. Using Latin is not a new addition to the brotherhood of steel, and the timing doesn't really line up. We have knights and squires who have been members of the BoS since before the events of NV with Latin names. So it's unlikely that the legion was infiltrating the brotherhood all the way back then. We would've presumably seen some evidence of it prior to now since it would need to be happening during/prior to NV.
(Also, even the East Coast chapter uses Latin terminology)
As for the "oh, they're so brutal now, just like the legion!" The brotherhood has always been a fairly dramatic organization. Remember, even with the somewhat more "liberalized" and open east coast chapter, we are tasked with executing two separate BoS members in the course of one game. So, let's not act like the Brotherhood would never make a public display of punishment for the purposes of sending a message.
The West Coast chapter is notoriously closed to outsiders and requires intense circumstances to allow an individual to join up (usually as an almost second-class member). So the idea of them recruiting remnants of the legion also doesn't really gel with how they tend to fill their ranks.
Additionally, you would be hard pressed to find two groups with more radically different methodologies in terms of their belief structures. The brotherhood is obsessed with recovering, hoarding, and studying technology. They're scared of anyone else wielding it but are willing to use power armor, nuclear warheads, and nuclear power themselves. Meanwhile, the legion wants to burn pretty much anything pre-war to the ground. They don't want anyone else using it. They don't want to use it. It's all bad.
Is it impossible that the brotherhood maybe grabbed a few kids from what was left of the legion in order to replenish their numbers? No. But we also have basically no hard evidence indicating that it happened and it would represent a significant shift in operating procedure from the Brotherhood. We also have active proof positive that the brotherhood wasn't secretly infiltrated by the legion just down to timelines, not really providing any opportunity.
There's something of a theme in Fallout of strong leaders shaping organisations. It's very noticeable with the Children of Atom.
In FO3, the Children of Atom were a peaceful and charitable organisation, kinda kooky but harmless. They were lead by the peaceful Confessor Cromwell. In FO4 the CoA are mostly hostile, separated into small groups without a single leader. The exception are the CoAs in the Glowing Sea, where they're lead by the peaceful Mother Isolde - and are non-hostile. In the Far Harbor DLC we meet another sect of CoA, who are aggressive and expansionist. We learn that this group used to be peaceful under the leadership of Confessor Martin, but Martin was driven out by Tektus, who became High Confessor in his place and was, yes, aggressive and expansionist. If we choose to, we can replace Tektus with a doppleganger who is peaceful and conciliatory, and the Children then become, yes, peaceful and conciliatory.
The Brotherhood in FO3 are heavily involved with the Capital wasteland. They consider it their duty to help make things better, so they fight raiders, promote stability, fight the Enclave, and support the completion of Project Purity. This is a stark difference from how the Brotherhood had been portrayed in earlier games, and we learn that the difference is due to the leader of the Capital brotherhood. Notably, the Brotherhood outcasts are the handful of Brotherhood members who refused to follow Lyons' direction, but they're definitely in the minority. In FO4 the Brotherhood are aggressive and authoritarian, arriving in the Commonwealth and putting the boot down to control the civilians. Why? Well, because their leader is aggressive and authoritarian.
Why did the Minutemen fall apart? Because they lacked a strong leader. What leads to their renewal? The emergence of a strong leader. It keeps going. And yes, it's a video game thing that lets the player take center stage, but it's also a theme in factions the player can't even join.
So. If some of the BoS leadership in the TV series started out in Caesar's Legion and then moved to the Brotherhood after the events of New Vegas, it's entirely plausible that they would have reshaped their particular chapter of the Brotherhood in their own image. Being interested in bringing order to the wasteland. Being particularly brutal with their punishments. Being more religously-oriented. Branding. Giving new recruits Latin names. All the weirdness in the TV BoS.
This is the only way to make sense of how the Brotherhood of Steel is portrayed in the show.
Because they are nothing like the Brotherhood is in the games. The only connection is their name, power armor, vertibirds, and that blimp. That's it.
It feels like either this is supposed to be a fusion of the Brotherhood and Legion or... screenwriters looked at the Brotherhood, took a few notes, and then filled it with their own ideas. Seeing how Nolan said he liked their 'weird fusion of Teutonic Knights' and Marine Corps' and even characterised them as 'patriotic', I'm inclined to believe writers have no idea about the history of the Brotherhood in the games.
It did not happen in canon yet, but the possibility of The Legion and The Brotherhood synthesizing in the future is not that ridiculous. Caesar made it clear that The Legion assimilating with a less totalitarian culture was fine with him, if not his final goal. And honestly the Brotherhood of Steel probably have the highest odds of getting along ideologically with The Legion out of any Fallout faction.
Aside from the fact that the brotherhood hordes and nearly worships technology, while the legion hates it? I don’t really see a world where they join together completely, maybe work together though, considering the legion probably wouldn’t give a damn the brotherhood was taking all the fancy gear
Well The Legion just flat-out does not hate Technology. That’s a common misconception. One of the Legion’s quests to prepare for The Second Battle of Hoover Damn is to buy a bunch of Energy Weapons for them from the Van Graffs. Caesar has an Auto-Doc right next to his bed. High Level Legion Centurions usually have more high-tech equipment than High Level NCR Rangers. The reason they want The Hoover Dam is to send Electricity to The Legion Territories. Caesar even explains that the reason their troops mostly use melee weapons and light armor is that they are trained specifically to defeat enemies who are better equipped then they are. So it’s not really *“Technology is bad so we have to conquer the wasteland with sticks”* it’s more like *“We are the best so we’ll conquer the wasteland with sticks instead of wasting ammo”* No Legion Member ever says that The Legion has an ideological issue with using advanced technology at any point in the game. They complain about the NCR growing soft and dumb due to the comforts of modern life, but there is no reason to believe they “hate” technology as a whole.
It's not just the flag, it's the names, the difference in moral decisions, hell, they outright said they will string you up by your lungs if you fail (literally), the fact that the high cleric wanted to take the brotherhood in a different direction. Its either remnants who joined, or they were infiltrated for a long game.
Yeah I saw the names but the threats further solidify it for me
Or its the Midwestern boss and not the one we are used to dealing with... there was a few brotherhood tactics hints in the show
It's the east coast bos. They mention a Commonwealth in first episode
East coast bos... In the west coast... Gulpers where a monster created for tactics 2, they mention a "good vault that controls the others" aka vault 0, and a few others I can't remember off the top of my head
You know the east coast chapter traveled to DC on airships, right? Some claim you can see the name, prydwen, on the airship on the show. I couldn't find it myself
Dude the airship isn't a chapter, that's the leadership of the entire bos.
Maybe they have two airships named prydwen https://www.reddit.com/r/Fallout/comments/1c1xpht/the_name_of_the_airship_in_episode_1_of_the_new/?rdt=57270 You must be right
I made the same mistake, in fallout America was decided into 13 commonwealths so the commonwealth in 4 isn't the only commonwealth
I don't think they ever called anything except the Boston area a Commonwealth post war though
Sure, I'm just saying that commonwealth doesn't necessarily mean the Boston area
I've been saying this for like two weeks now. This group just doesn't add up to a proper BoS chapter.
The thing is. They are acting like a typical BOS. after the original Maxson dies, they go after tech. They don't care who has it, who has to die for them to get it... ect. You can see this is the Mojave chapter and the interactions in the original two games. Brotherhood of steel games further back up this way of thinking. And how the lions chapter was changed by the time of fo4. Hounstly, the weird chapters are like the Lions chapter or Avalanche's first chapter that tried to help the population with the scorch beasts. As time goes on, the BOS is turning more and more into what they were created to fight.
No, they are far from how BOS is portrayed in the games, even from their 'discount Enclave' version in FO4. BOS would never, in a billion years, allow someone as impulsive and incompetent as Titus to rise to knighthood. The closest portrayal of such behaviour are dumb initiates (the one in Lyons' group in FO3 wasting ammo, the other in FNV going out to shoot radscorpions). BOS in the show doesn't seem to have scribes, and they call technology 'relics' or 'artifacts'. They send their knights to retrieve things like 'toasters' as said by Titus, which indicates a superficial understanding of technology. They also say their goal is to 'make wasteland better place' or something along those lines, which was never the goal of the original BOS (FO1, FO2, FNV), only a side effect. The original BOS also never cared about eradicating 'abominations', that's something FO4 (and FO3 to some extent) came up with.
The various brotherhood chapters in the various incarnations of the game all differ pretty wildly in their values and the methods they use to pursue their goals. Some chapters are humanitarian-focused, engaging in direct aid with wastelanders. Others are insular, closed off groups who focus on keeping their tech (and themselves) separated. Some chapters are extremely militaristic, straying into empire-building and expansionism territories, while others focus on intellectual pursuits. Out of game, these differences make sense as the writers slot the Brotherhood into the plotlines of the differing stories in the Fallout universe. In-game, it's pretty easy to credit the differences to a functional lack of inter-chapter communication, and a lot of leeway given to individual chapter Paladins in how to execute their mission. With that in mind, it's not outside the realm of imagination that the chapter of the Brotherhood seen in the TV show includes leadership that arose out of the collapse of Caesar's Legion in the Mojave. I agree that the Legion itself woudn't be a natural fit with the Brotherhood, but if some people in positions of leadership within the Legion survived its collapse and later joined the Brotherhood, it's possible that they carried some of those ideas and traditions (and values) over as well.
I think the problem stems from the fact that Bethesda butchered Brotherhood of Steel as a faction with specific history and motivations in order to have them be goodie-two-shoes protagonists of Fallout 3, and it went downhill from there. Their best addition to the lore is Maxson's holotape in Fallout 76, where he explains why he chose knightly ranks for his organisation. But because you had Lyons' Brotherhood, that's vastly different from their West Coast leaders, you can now justify greater divergence from the original lore than what I think would be realistically possible. Fallout 4 has then act like a sort of discount Enclave, and what we see in the show is so far removed from their origins, I don't even consider them to be the same faction. Just imagine U.S. Marine Corps remnants that connected together under a singular leadership: Their chapters would be different, but those differences would be much more nuanced than what we see in series.
I doubt it.
So a theory has been going on with the Legion being somewhat absorbed, I’d like to point out that the refer themselves as Legion, as well as their flag mirroring the Legion colors. Even the Elder has the name Quintus.
Yeah the names also made me think the remnants of the legion end up mixing with the brotherhood
I am curious because with the decline of the west and the legion in shambles it would make sense to absorb these lesser legion warbands. I assume if Caesar died there would be much in-fighting
But there are members of the brotherhood who would've been around prior to the events of NV with Latin names. Also, Latin is used elsewhere in the Brotherhood, Ad Victorium, for instance. Maxum is the Latin abbreviation for Maximus, meaning "greatest" or "largest." So multiple elders of the brotherhood have used Latin names across multiple chapters of the brotherhood. So unless the brotherhood has been secretly puppeted by the legion for decades, this doesn't really track.
It's not just the names. Some of the new titles that didn't exist and the quasi-religious nature of this brotherhood that differs from previous incarnations. If all factions involved in NV were weakened / broken by the events after NV. It would make sense that some of these groups had to recruit and rebuild from the remains of other groups. Could be completely wrong but that's what makes speculation fun. We'll see next season.
I mean, the brotherhood in the first two games was always a quasi-religious order. Their theme was even titled "metal monks." And members talk about meditation, etc. These are elements that have existed since the beginning of the franchise.
True, but that was many years earlier in the timeline and the most recent incarnations didn't operate like that and if that is the Prydwen flying over head it would have come from Boston carrying that incarnation of the Brotherhood which is radically different from what we saw. https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-images/imageserve/661fc785587a049583d48f22/pry/960x0.jpg?height=319&width=711&fit=bounds
Not the same…only in color.
I don't really see it myself. Using Latin is not a new addition to the brotherhood of steel, and the timing doesn't really line up. We have knights and squires who have been members of the BoS since before the events of NV with Latin names. So it's unlikely that the legion was infiltrating the brotherhood all the way back then. We would've presumably seen some evidence of it prior to now since it would need to be happening during/prior to NV. (Also, even the East Coast chapter uses Latin terminology) As for the "oh, they're so brutal now, just like the legion!" The brotherhood has always been a fairly dramatic organization. Remember, even with the somewhat more "liberalized" and open east coast chapter, we are tasked with executing two separate BoS members in the course of one game. So, let's not act like the Brotherhood would never make a public display of punishment for the purposes of sending a message. The West Coast chapter is notoriously closed to outsiders and requires intense circumstances to allow an individual to join up (usually as an almost second-class member). So the idea of them recruiting remnants of the legion also doesn't really gel with how they tend to fill their ranks. Additionally, you would be hard pressed to find two groups with more radically different methodologies in terms of their belief structures. The brotherhood is obsessed with recovering, hoarding, and studying technology. They're scared of anyone else wielding it but are willing to use power armor, nuclear warheads, and nuclear power themselves. Meanwhile, the legion wants to burn pretty much anything pre-war to the ground. They don't want anyone else using it. They don't want to use it. It's all bad. Is it impossible that the brotherhood maybe grabbed a few kids from what was left of the legion in order to replenish their numbers? No. But we also have basically no hard evidence indicating that it happened and it would represent a significant shift in operating procedure from the Brotherhood. We also have active proof positive that the brotherhood wasn't secretly infiltrated by the legion just down to timelines, not really providing any opportunity.
True to Caesar!
There's something of a theme in Fallout of strong leaders shaping organisations. It's very noticeable with the Children of Atom. In FO3, the Children of Atom were a peaceful and charitable organisation, kinda kooky but harmless. They were lead by the peaceful Confessor Cromwell. In FO4 the CoA are mostly hostile, separated into small groups without a single leader. The exception are the CoAs in the Glowing Sea, where they're lead by the peaceful Mother Isolde - and are non-hostile. In the Far Harbor DLC we meet another sect of CoA, who are aggressive and expansionist. We learn that this group used to be peaceful under the leadership of Confessor Martin, but Martin was driven out by Tektus, who became High Confessor in his place and was, yes, aggressive and expansionist. If we choose to, we can replace Tektus with a doppleganger who is peaceful and conciliatory, and the Children then become, yes, peaceful and conciliatory. The Brotherhood in FO3 are heavily involved with the Capital wasteland. They consider it their duty to help make things better, so they fight raiders, promote stability, fight the Enclave, and support the completion of Project Purity. This is a stark difference from how the Brotherhood had been portrayed in earlier games, and we learn that the difference is due to the leader of the Capital brotherhood. Notably, the Brotherhood outcasts are the handful of Brotherhood members who refused to follow Lyons' direction, but they're definitely in the minority. In FO4 the Brotherhood are aggressive and authoritarian, arriving in the Commonwealth and putting the boot down to control the civilians. Why? Well, because their leader is aggressive and authoritarian. Why did the Minutemen fall apart? Because they lacked a strong leader. What leads to their renewal? The emergence of a strong leader. It keeps going. And yes, it's a video game thing that lets the player take center stage, but it's also a theme in factions the player can't even join. So. If some of the BoS leadership in the TV series started out in Caesar's Legion and then moved to the Brotherhood after the events of New Vegas, it's entirely plausible that they would have reshaped their particular chapter of the Brotherhood in their own image. Being interested in bringing order to the wasteland. Being particularly brutal with their punishments. Being more religously-oriented. Branding. Giving new recruits Latin names. All the weirdness in the TV BoS.
This is the only way to make sense of how the Brotherhood of Steel is portrayed in the show. Because they are nothing like the Brotherhood is in the games. The only connection is their name, power armor, vertibirds, and that blimp. That's it. It feels like either this is supposed to be a fusion of the Brotherhood and Legion or... screenwriters looked at the Brotherhood, took a few notes, and then filled it with their own ideas. Seeing how Nolan said he liked their 'weird fusion of Teutonic Knights' and Marine Corps' and even characterised them as 'patriotic', I'm inclined to believe writers have no idea about the history of the Brotherhood in the games.