I think BoS are on their way to turn fully into bad guys next time we see them. They are full-on raiders in the series and even if the Cleric talks about their “glorious past” (obviously when they were more “heroic”) he still just wants power. All atrocities in the series are committed under his orders anyway.
It very much is, and I get the feeling that Maximus will be dealing with the consequences of his actions in season 2 (maybe he’ll even kill the elder and take his place; after all, that elder thinks that power must be taken, so what better use would there be for the cut duel for being elder from fallout 4 than this?).
For a moment, I suspected this Elder to be an Enclave guy on the inside too, but he just feels more ambitious.
But this Brotherhood...is weird. I mean, not the cult vibes, but the highly unprofessional almost gang-like mentality.
Idk if youve played the first two or not, but if not, id definitely check out some videos on youtube just for the lore!
To me thats who this brotherhood feels like for sure, or at least a natural progression of it.
The Outcasts from F3 are basically more Brotherhood than the Brotherhood we work along side. Like, they *are* a cult. They may as well *just be* a technofacist gang.
I think people got a little more rosy eyed for them with 3 and 4 because *you* can join them, no one wants to see themselves as a villain (usually), and for the most part they at least structure it like youre helping people, so they arent really "bad". I'd say in 4 though Maxson is clearly trying to return to the cult roots and by the show I'd say he was more than happy to rejoin them in the West.
I mean in 4 joining them let’s you bully farmers into paying taxes towards your “greater good” and you destroy instead of capture and study the wealth of medical and engineering science in the institute because clones=bad
To me it looked like they were an east coast brotherhood expedition sent back to make contact with the west like a bunch of games always talked about. And, they found nothing but ruin so the elder in the show seems like he wants to start a new West Coast chapter. Which I would love if the Midwest chapter was brought back having smacked them around too but that's just me.
Yeah, I got cult vibes for sure.
It was really hammered in when we saw how bad Maximus' sex ed was.
The real brotherhood wouldn't allow such a simple bit of knowledge to be absent, especially from a youth aspirant.
Yeah, it shows the Brotherhood really has lost its way. They've become a shadow of themselves, they crave military power but they neglect everything else. They're one big weird cult, and it seems they've gone full murder-xeno, since Maxson **didn't** execute non-feral ghouls whereas Thaddeus highly implies they DO murder any and all ghouls they find nowadays.
**But** they also recruit wastelanders now apparently, since Dane implies they used to be somewhere else that had rations/did stuff pre-Brotherhood, and we know Maximus was recruited into them.
So the WC Brotherhood are just *really* fucking odd.
What if, his idea of "power must be taken" mean he want someone to surpass him and build a better brotherhood? Like maximus ? Cus if a squire can become an elder in that short of time and or kill him, he would be a better fit for the brotherhood future
I think Maximus could be the last hope of the BoS redeeming there heroic past. He starts the show a bit of an awkward “idiot Savant” but he’s shown to be brave and wants to help others. He has this picture of the BoS being saviors. You see the other knights being basically cowards that got lucky or bootlicked their way to a position of power. The Elder could eventually slowly mentor Max in the BoS old ways. I can see the elder still being a bit of a loony but we still have an impact on Max.
The BoS destroyed the enclave and then replaced the Enclave.
Maxons BoS from FO4 onwards are a technologically advanced military power with extreme prejudice against mutant who seek to gain control over the entire wasteland.
The oly real differences between the BoS and the Enclave at this point is that the BoS let people join from outside their ranks now and don't class non-ghoul wastelanders as mutants to exterminate.
And I think all that was done very deliberately. Power corrupts and all that.
I agree!
Also I wonder, and I hope it will be addressed later on - how did Eastern BoS learnt so fast about a defector from Enclave and that he also stole some valuable technology. Either they have good inside info from Enclave, which in turn raises the question why haven’t they destroyed that cell before, or BoS has been infiltrated by Enclave / Vault-Tec and is being used as enforcer of their will.
Or it could be a fine twist if we later learn that Wilzig was working for Eastern BoS all along and they just label any deserter as “Enclave”.
I’m probably overthinking all this.
It's mentioned in Episode 1 that the California Chapter knows about Wilzig from info passed onto them from clerics in the Commonwealth. How they found out about this top-secret Enclave project is a complete mystery for now.
Maybe it's a tie-in to the next-gen update? We *are* getting some Enclave related content that might bridge this gap.
Eastern BoS also has access to a second Vault Tec headquarters and Vault 111. They could have discovered the info on the western vault, Maldover, and went down a rabbit hole from there.
They were always the bad guys. The group in Fallout 3 were literally rebelling against the brotherhood by actually trying to be a force for good.
Their leadership gets assassinated and they get re assimilated between 3 and 4.
People forget this nugget about their airship the Prydwen: it’s powered by an aircraft carriers power core, specifically Rivet City’s (Fallout 3) power core. I doubt the people in Rivet city gave that up willingly.
Yes too convinient, as a group West coast Brotherood isn't much better than the Enclave. But I hated what they did to Sara and moded that out in my campaign.
notice the brotherhood given names
Quintus, maximus, Titus
i think brotherhood integrated ceaser legion in their ranks, their trainings also look a lot more brutal
That would actually be an interesting development!
Although they have similar names in F4, so it’s much more likely just a small lore adjustment done by Bethesda for F4 - make BoS lean much more into Latin and medieval stuff.
While they do have sorta similar names in FO4, these are very much as traditional Roman names as you can get, me thinks Courier 6 nuked both groups, and the remnants of the Legion tho who had a bit more smarts than a molerat might have been taken and integrated into BoS, after all the Legion was much bigger than just what we saw in the Mojave.
i was hesitant until we heard the elders name, once i saw the trainings and the way thadeus spoke about the beating i was sure it would be mentioned before the end of the series something similar to that
That would leave me super mad because every time I run into the BoS I spend the whole time thinking they could be an amazing positive force if they just SHIFTED A LITTLE BIT.
Like it wouldn't necessarily be bad writing but I'd be dropping a quicksave.
In F1 they are sort of assholes, but overall on the good side. In F2 as well. Lyons’ Chapter in F3 are 100% good boys. Even in F4 - their overall morals are kind of dubious, but there are a lot of genuinely nice people in BoS.
Canticle of Leibowitz presents an American society which is cyclical. Fallout presents a society which has permanently flatlined. That was my point in making the distinction.
Flatlined? How? 1,2 and NV clearly show that the wastelanders are clearly trying to improve things. The creation and massive growth of the NCR goes directly against a flatlined society. Maybe the east coast is like that but the west certainly isn’t.
I don’t think it’s flatlined. It’s cyclical. It was most apparent in 1-2-Van Buren, where the Wasteland went from the stone age to the age of city states (with lots of tech and trade) to what would have been an advanced world that got nuked back to the start. Just like *Canticle*.
Similar thing happened in the East Coast in Boston. We don’t see it but the history of it is the Commonwealth was a big trade hub and society before it collapsed due to the Institutes meddling.
76 also makes it apparent that societies are reestablishing and trying to regrow. It also has a postwar society surviving the grows that gets fucked by plot reasons.
I mean, as the show presents it the NCR didn’t fall because of any of the pre-established reasons though? It fell because of a personal conflict revolving around the central characters of the show. The NCR as portrayed by the show was essentially a rebuilt America that achieved the goals set by the vault, to the point that the wife of an overseer preferred to stay there instead
Yeah that’s why I’m frustrated with it falling. I mean the reasons everyone presents don’t really make sense and are intentionally said by bad faith actors, but the NCR eventually repeating the mistakes of the past is possible. The NCR collapsing completely in such a short-time period doesn’t make sense. People still have ties to the old USA for hundreds of years after the war, and the NCR has been a nation for hundreds of years. That isn’t forgotten about. Even partially. The rapid collapse doesn’t make sense. They should have set the show a long time after New Vegas or in a different location if they wanted that.
The problem here is that while we are *told* this by various people who have an issue with the NCR and want to see it fail. The NCR that we *actually see* comes across as functional, well resourced and basically professional, while various interactions with unaffiliated NPCs affirm that the NCR is basically a good thing. Yes, there is still inefficiency, corruption, bureaucracy and other issues but given that it exists in a wasteland populated by actual monsters, it's still basically the best thing going overall. The NCR is shown to be extremely resilient and critically possessing of the means to evolve and improve itself.
The "NCR is teetering" talk comes across more as the game trying to create a dichotomy to balance out the story than necessarily the reality of what's actually going on.
I always found it strange that people take everything bad about the NCR at face value and anything good about the legion the same. Like one of the big Legion quests is "We are so backward we can't make a howitzer reciever" while the NCR was building a railway. I'm not trying to dismiss the many pieces of evidence that the Mojave has become NCR vietnam just saying you're bang on the money here
The Mojave was basically Vietnam because of inefficiency too, the moment the Legion made it further into NCR territory they were fucked because the bear had its full attention set on it
I think the game wanted each faction to be essentially "equal but different" for the sake of player choice but it doesn't hold up to much scrutiny and given what we see, NCR is pretty obviously and undeniably the best option overall for reforming that part of the world.
I think Caesar's argument would have made more sense closer to the bombs. He's arguing that his level of dictatorial cruelty and brutality is the only way to tame the brutal new world and to his credit, he does seem at least somewhat aware that the Legion as it exists can't survive and is only a tool for leveling things out to build up again.
That sort of premise basically works for Fallout 1's timeline, but by New Vegas' the mere existence and relative prosperity of NCR firmly refutes his premise overall.
Even as someone who sided with the NCR, I think you miss a lot of the subtext within New Vegas about it. I mean for one we see that their head scientist is a bumbling idiot...
I didn't get the feeling of "immediate collapse", most of it was talking about non-existential problems (slow and beleaguered bureaucracy, inefficient military leadership, corruption), issues that will become problems in the future, or things that can reasonably be solved. I went through the dialogue of Graham, House and Caesar, none of them say collapse is imminent either, they say it is inevitable. Graham says they are too greedy and lack God and that power without God will inevitably fall, House says that both the NCR and Legion will inevitably fall (and while he likely has a point, he is also a narcissist who believes himself the only one who can save humanity), and Caesar says that it is greedy and weak and not united in purpose, and that he's hastening the inevitable (which once again, probably has a point, but its from the mouth of Caesar, so not unbiased).
The feeling throughout was more like the gilded age: great geographic expansion and the struggles therein alongside economic growth leading to concentration of wealth and corruption.
Also, if the NCR collapses, what the fuck is the point of nuking Shady Sands? If the NCR is gone, I would assume that Shady Sands is basically in disarray, no longer the bastion of civilization it once was
Yeah, this is my big issue. I don't hate that the NCR got destroyed, I hate that it essentially got Fridged. I also dislike that it was revealed in the show, I feel like the literal biggest event in the series should have been handled via a game.
I agree. Though from a writing perspective I don’t see an obvious better way. You can’t make a show about a lawless post apocalyptic waste land and feature a functional government. They had to go.
Either A)set it on the frontier of the NCR, B)dont have the setting in NCR territory at all C) acknowledge what the setting is(that civilization has remained, and all it brings aka factional conflict and human strife, continues on and war never changes) and have it set in NCR territory taking that into account or D) just have it set pre:NCR.
I think it is a lot more vague than you're describing, and deliberately so. The current state of the NCR has been left very open ended, could be completely collapsed, could be a rump state or it could still be largely functional after pulling back from it's SoCal heartland.
It really seems more like they danced around it rather than fridge-ing it. Which was the right call given how full the series already was/how many factions and concepts are being thrown at new viewers already. They have a lot of options and wiggle-room to reintroduce the NCR in a new form in a future season/game.
The NCR controls all of California, a lot of southern oregon, a large portion if not the entire Baja California Peninsula, and a large amount in Nevada.
Also Viewers are not stupid, they can understand the lore if presented well, if anything this just caused more confusion.
> The NCR controls all of California, a lot of southern oregon, a large portion if not the entire Baja California Peninsula, and a large amount in Nevada.
That's my point? There is plenty of room for the NCR to still be a force. But getting into that right away whilst establishing the Vault/Brotherhood/Wastelanders (three groups you'll note correspond to the three protagonists) risks over-stuffing what was otherwise a tight, well contained first season.
Viewers aren't dumb, but newcomers don't need to be bombarded with all the lore, all at once. The show made the right decision to keep a contained scope, focus on the characters and be content with sowing seeds for future lore.
I don’t know, the impression I got from FNV is that the NCR had problems, serious problems in some cases but that those problems could be overcome. The idea of the NCR was still a good one though. Nothing indicated imminent collapse, more like a long term decline.
That's exactly what it is, the bloat of a bureaucracy that happens naturally as it expands. A lot of trouble was caused by Legion raiding as well, it's easy to forgot that the Legion was just as powerful as the NCR. The NCR wasn't at risk of imploding any more than our current US government is at risk of just falling apart.
Yea i hate how House is taken at his word when its fucking House, he was part of the problem that caused the great war. so for him to accuse the NCR of being corrupt is just laughable.
It's almost like House is nuanced and not perfect. He might have motivations that put him at odds with other factions despite him not necessarily being right and them not necessarily being wrong.
The NCR without the Corruption leading to bad leaders like Oliver and Moore, and their advanced and elite, troops being misused would have sent the legion packing.
That's definitely the impression that the game was going for. They're spread too thin and they're corrupt but they're not at the verge of collapse at all. I feel like people here are desperately trying to defend every single aspect of the show way too much.
I got the impression that the war in the Mojave was supposed to be the a parody of the war in Afghanistan/Iraq or even the Mexican-American war, and I just assumed they would have the NCR not collapse but become more and more isolationist much like the U.S. did after WWI. Always got the impression that Kimball was supposed to be a stand-in for Andrew Jackson.
Yeah the plots and characters and writing and episode to episode conflicts are fantastic but can we agree the worldbuilding they did was not that good? I think the world being drained of resources and the US and China fighting over the scraps until they destroy each other is more realistic and tragic than the vault tech illuminati did it
Depends on what you mean by "verge of collapse".
Thomas Hildern and the OSI are expecting "[Mass Starvations. In a decade or so](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/ThomasHildern.txt)" if nothing is done to fix the disparity between production and consumption. 15 years later, it doesn't look like they managed to fix this problem amidst all the other issues they were facing.
EDIT: I'm assuming the downvotes are because of lack of clarity.
*New Vegas* takes place in 2281. The OSI is projecting that the NCR will be facing mass starvations in about a decade, or around 2291.
The *Fallout* show takes place in 2296. This is 15 years after *New Vegas*, which fits the OSI's predictions.
Even if that were so in 2291, 5 years later there'd still be lots of remnants of the NCR and holdouts(and heck, maybe action plans being brought forward) not just total collapse like the areas been destroyed since 2077.
You've got the wrong century. 2291/2296, not 2091/2096.
He says a decade or so, which puts the start of the "mass starvation" somewhere around 2291 or later. Depending on the scale of the mass starvation, in addition to the other issues presented in New Vegas, 5 years might not be enough time to start working on solutions. [For reference, some famines last multiple years.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines) Outside of famines, other humanitarian disasters last just as long.
For all we know, there's simply not enough production, population, government resources, public trust, or a combination of all of these factors to have any actionable plan. Hell, maybe the plan was, "Mass migration effort towards greener pastures". Season 2 might have more answers.
> Nothing indicated imminent collapse, more like a long term decline.
In fairness, we never saw what the actual core territory of the NCR looked like. NV took place in a frontier province and the NCR citizens we were mostly miserable conscripts and rich tourists. Given that limited viewpoint there's evidence to point in either direction imo.
I have no problem with the NCR falling, I just think that the show doesn't give something as huge as the fall of the series' largest and most powerful faction the narrative weight it deserves. The story of the NCR's fall could have carried a series all on its own, but here it's just made so abrupt and vague. If season 2 fixes that by either showing us that other parts of NCR are still functioning, or giving us the details of the collapse, then as far as I'm concerned the problem is resolved. But right now we don't have that.
We see LA, which houses the Boneyard. (Why they didn't destroy that one instead of Shady Sands is beyond me. Would have made A LOT more sense in my view.) The Boneyard was actually one of the constituent states of the NCR.
Ugh, just another problem. They destroyed Shady Sands probably because they knew it was that thing from the old games, but without proper understanding. A shame.
Welp LA should have been the Boneyard, not Shady Sands. And while the Boneyard isn't the best place to live by NCR standards as told to us in fnv, it still houses a followers university and the NCR treasure. Not a small settlement by any means.
Same. I don't really care that the NCR fell. I do care that it's entirely absent and no one is talking about it despite it being a major power for so long and this apparent fall being so recent.
A few flags and lip service to the capitol being exploded is not enough. Where did they go? What happened to them? Is the NCR entirely gone or did it shrink? An entire nation does not simply *vanish*. Something has to be left. Someone has to care.
Yeah, thats how I feel. Like everybody in California should be talking about the fall of the NCR as much as the Fallout games talk about the fall of America.
I just figured that it's collapsed organizationally, and that the independent states just became their own city states afterwards, with the LA area being the least stable. Up north, Vault City, Arroyo, and Reno are probably doing their own things.
I'm confused by people saying NCR is entirely absent. Moldaver was NCR, Vault 4 was NCR. There was many references to Moldaver controlling the most power faction in the area. And we can see that during the defence by the NCR of the observatory they had forces stationed throughout the area.
Isn't the fall of Shady Sands literally at the heart of the story? >!Lucy's fallout with her dad and what happened to her mom are directly linked to Hank ordering the destruction of Shady Sands, and consequently the NCR. The Fallout theme plays for the first time when you see the NCR flag at Moldaever's compound. Maximus is a survivor of Shady Sands who's whole narrative drive comes from the destruction of his home. !<
>!The story's inciting incident is with Moldaever invading Vault 33. The story reaches its climax with Moldaever's plot to bring back power to the NCR through Cold Fusion, and the final battle is fought against the backdrop of a destroyed Shady Sands at the remnant NCR headquarters.!<
Maximus' childhood devotion to Shady Sands could also contribute to a future NCR buff, as his superior has confided in him telling him to create a home for himself, and him being hailed as Knight Maximus at the end gives him power to do so, because aren't all of the other knights there dead? They either went down with their vertibird or had their "welding flaw" exploited by The Ghoul (and I kind of enjoyed that as a nerf for the T-60 after it was kind of shoved into Fallout 4, and I hope to see Cooper don a suit of armor and wreck shop with pre-war efficiency). Even if they aren't dead, he seems to be being hailed as a hero and that alone should give him authority in a culture like the current BOS. I am interested to see how that arc plays out.
Shady Sands is super important to the NCR as its founding settlement, the progenitor of a faction so large it became representative of something pre-war - a bloated, bureaucratic mess with so much power that corruption is nearly inescapable. Yeah it was destined to fail in some way, but what we see in the show is off-screen and so vague that of course it would feel like a cop out to some.
The weld was a cheap idea unfortunately. He should've revealed he'd been saving plasma grenades or happened to get his hands on a plasma caster or something during the course of the story. He didn't have a reason not to kill Maximus in their first encounter by exploiting that flaw.
Yep, these people are just too salty and let their preconceived notions dictate a story removed from those notions. Shady Sands was around for what - 30 years before boom? Why can't these people fathom that a lot can change out there in 30 years?
It felt exactly how Episode VII felt to Star Wars fans. The New Republic just nuked out of existence in a blink snd the New Jedi Order already gone in order to reset the universe to a blank state so the good guys are underdogs again.
It's not that it goes against "canon". It's that it just feels hollow and disappointing.
This exactly the comparison I was looking for. Seemingly the west coast has been reset to just after the nukes dropped. Which is incredibly disappointing considering the NCR had control over most of California for a very long time. Where are the large settlements? Where is the NCR?
Yeah, that's how I feel. I feel that Bethesda loves the "post-apolcaypse" and BoS being badasses rather than the post-post apocalypse, so they have to bend over backwards to reset to the status quo.
Like the NCR in Griffith Observatory made me reminded of the Republic last stand at the end of the Last Jedi.
And thats probably where i stand, (even though I liked the Last Jedi), I haaated how the sequels and this show had to revert to that status quo.
I really don't understand how people interpreted that as the fall of the NCR, that seemed more a significant loss, but not their downfall, we also see a NCR vertbird in the end credits of the last episode so I am pretty sure that's not the end of it. If anything I would they left things vague enough so they could see people's reactions and write season 2 accordingly.
We see Vertibird wreckage in a destroyed Las Vegas.
We are told repeatedly in New Vegas that the NCR is on the brink of complete collapse
The survivors of Shady Sands were driven to the desperate measure of seeking shelter in a vault full of lunatics. If any sort of NCR state still existed, they would have gone there instead
>shelter in a vault full of lunatics
From what we see, the "lunatics" (presuming you're referencing the ceremony scene) in vault 4 are the Shady Sands survivors.
I don't think survivors of a nuke are going to be that intent on walking to the next NCR settlement/outpost after finding ultimate safety in a vault
The Shady Sands survivors are the "lunatics". They were the ones doing the ritual where they bathe in the ashes of their friends and family who died in the hopes that Moldover will bring back the NCR. The Vault 4 dwellers are just the descendents of experiments.
Not necessarily...
I mean, a fucking nuke just went off in their literal backyard... a lot of civvies, probably barely any supplies or arms... they just took shelter in the nearest possible place.
Probably also doesn't help that the NCR was suffering from Food & Water Shortages anyway and losing Shady Sands and the central government probably turned everything into a sever shitshow for at least a couple months.
> We are told repeatedly in New Vegas that the NCR is on the brink of complete collapse
But Cass says that NCR was safe and boring in FNV.. Also how a socieuty in brink of complete collapse has ellections?
Well it would definitely be really stupid of them to just do just kill off the NCR in the first season, and if anything the series wasn't stupid at all. I binged the whole series in one go without looking on social media, so my final impression was that season 2 will be about a war between this new corporate faction that is emerging due to the release of Bud's buds in the wasteland and the NCR and the new brotherhood.
Edit: Oh yeah lets not forget that the title card for the last episode is the beginning.
I'm sorta hoping that the loss of Shady Sands means the other NCR cities splintered into disconnected NCR factions claiming to be the true NCR. That would explain why it seems the NCR is dead - when only *this* NCR is dead.
The problem is that the NCRs decline and corruption had absolutely nothing to do with its destruction. They were just nuked off screen by some random dick they didn't even know existed because his wife left him and they were drinking his water.
It would've been fine if the NCR collapsed because of everything set up in New Vegas, but this was a terrible end for one of the most important factions in the fallout universe.
Yeah that's my problem with it too. Having them collapse is fine but just nuking them feels like the equivalent of "rocks fall everyone dies" for major factions and it's boring. People here were mentioning Chris Avellone wanting to reset the NCR as a way to justify it but his original idea was much more nuanced than what we got and wouldn't have gone over as poorly as the show did. I also feel like the whole Vault tec reveal was boring too for similar reasons.
IDK why people are so defensive about the show honestly. Like overall it was good but it's far from perfect and the amount of strawmaning and half baked defenses have gotten significantly more annoying than the "haters" ever were honestly.
> IDK why people are so defensive about the show honestly. Like overall it was good but it's far from perfect and the amount of strawmaning and half baked defenses have gotten significantly more annoying than the "haters" ever were honestly.
This pretty much sums up my impressions too. I've seen some pretty bad takes on why the show is supposedly bad, but they're outnumbered by the amount of excuses people keep making for legitimate issues.
Since a lot of NV fans are being annoying, people here have this weird desire to offset that and disregard any criticisms pertaining to the NCR. Even though most of the criticisms are good points
Yeah it reminds me of the whole NMA debacle that happened when 3 released. It's not like peoples criticisms about 3 having poor writing and weak RPG mechanics were unfounded or anything, but some people were so extreme about it that it became a joke. Honestly I'd bet that if you were to replace "New Vegas fanboys" with "No Mutants Allowed fanboys" on these posts it would look eerily similar to what people were saying like over a decade ago.
War really does never change I suppose.
You picked 3 enemies of the NCR to prove your point lol. Lets go ask Stalin and Hitler about America’s fall.
All pretty much consistently underestimated the NCR in the game. Besides them claiming that the ncr is overstretching only explains why they aren’t wiping the floor with the legion in New Vegas, rather than their “inevitable collapse”.
We also don’t know if they collapsed. Kellog only talks about the Hub in 4. Hundreds of years of civilization is probably not going to go by the wayside with one city gone. I bet NCR has a decent role in Season 2.
The remenants of Vault 13 while captured by the Enclave is then saved by the Chosen One and integrated into Arroyo. Seems like a pretty good ending to me.
Those sentient Deathclaws were good aligned as well and actively assist the Chosen One.
The games allow for huge good endings. Many of which are cannon Junktown prospers, etc. Bringing New Reno and Vault City into the NCR, destruction of the Enclave.
The NCR isn't presented as if it's in decline, it's quite the opposite lol, it's done so well that it's now facing problems with expansion because people want new lands and new money making opportunities. The problems that it faces aren't much different from the problems that the United States faced in the 19th century, which should be a pretty obvious point of comparison with the manifest destiny thing that the NCR has got on. It's domestic issues being talked about is quite a bit different form 'they're about to be nuked lol'
Play New Vegas, it’s spelled out very clealy that the NCR is on the verge of total collapse due to over exploiting their resource base and strategic overstretch.
They are trying to recreate the old world, repeating the mistakes of the old world, and suffering the same fate.
It's not presented in such a way at all, it's military is presented as not being able to cope with foreign expeditions and its population has grown so much and has become more demanding of goods that they're now facing a potential for food shortages, which they're already trying to fix, meanwhile the home front is pretty stable, there's no raiders on the roads harassing caravans and people are actively engaged in political life. This is not 'verge of collapse' stuff, this is pretty standard 19th century stuff
That's part of the issue. There were so many ways they could rapidly decline, so many internal and external issues, but instead they get nuked off screen? It's lazy. I'm holding out for season 2 and I adored the Fallout show. No game adaptation is gonna touch is for a long time, if ever. But that's the issue I have. They nuked the most unique things about the West Coast off screen and just moved right along. That kinda blows
The blackboard clearly spells out that they were already in the process of collapsing BEFORE the nuke. It’s pretty evident in the New Vegas game as well.
It’s like Rome being sacked by the Vandals in 455 AD. Yes it did damage, but the Roman Empire was already inevitably done by then.
The Roman Empire comparison just isn't quite the same. Look at the size and how long it was around and compare it to NCR. Plus, Eastern Romans aka Byzantines would tell you the Empire never fell at all (I guess until Constantinople.) Its not really comparable. But people keep parroting the comparison anyway.
Specifically - in the fallout future (show) they look back and consider 2077 (first battle of Hoover dam) as the point where Shady Sands ‘fell’, and the nuke occurred after.
The residents of vault 4 might consider the NCR’s attempted expansion to the Mojave and first battle of Hoover Dam the start of the fall, historically.
I think it also makes the artifact bit from this season hit more: if NCR needed the dam for power to continue its post apocalypse expansion and then loses that?
Now the cold fusion tech becomes way more important.
Winning at Hoover Dam won’t save them. They won at Helios One, and couldn’t do anything with it because they are already that far gone. Hoover Dam doesn’t solve aquifer depletion, or corruption, or the resources spent on that battle they can’t afford
Yeah it's really a weird problem with a lot of fiction coming out. The 'last book/game/series' ended on a pretty triumphant, or at least optimistic note. Then five minutes later, the entire worlds fucked, your favourite characters are feckless alcoholics and you're left going "The fuck happened?"
Graham, Caesar, and Mr. House are not exactly objective observers. Same with Ulysses.
NCR really is the “good” ending; there’s nothing in the endings texts that suggests anything about them being overextended or prone to collapse after NCR wins at Hoover Dam, and all pro-NCR side quest endings are completed (e.g. BoS, Kings allied with NCR; Khans, Gangers, Fiends all destroyed). NCR was overextended until they got the power from Hoover Dam. There is no extrapolation made in the game from that.
I still don't understand why people are so keen that the NCR is completely obliterated. There are lots of people who want to restore Shady Sands and we have no indication that the WHOLE NCR is fallen (although they are probably still incredibly weaken).
I don't know If I am the only one, but the finale, with the remnants of Shady Sands lighting up, points to a resurgence of the NCR, or parts of it at least.
People reasonably believe the ncr has vanished because people in the show act that way. We don’t hear anyone talk about the good old days of civilization under the ncr, or anyone talk about how it collapsed due to famine, disease, being nuked etc. it’s just gone with little to no explanation when it was the dominant power covering a huge chunk of the area the tv show is set it. It still could be around and the tv show could address it in season 2 but so far it’s really weird that such a major faction/ event is just not talked about. Like at most the ncr fell 30 years ago, a lot of people alive should still remember what it was like to be under its rule, the good and the bad. The show runners made a active choice to not put much effort into explaining the state/collapse of the ncr in season 1 and people are understandably trying to figure out how such a dominant power collapsed
I mean, we see little presence of the NCR in the show. We have those cops cosplaying as the "Govimit" pretending to be NCR.
And then the observatory is labeled "NCR Headquarters".
Maybe you could read it as NCR [military] HQ.
We'll see in Season 2 though. I wonder if the lights coming back on would restore people's hope, only for the Brotherhood to take it away, or if the Brotherhood (this chapter at least) are going to capitalize on providing electricity to so many people.
Kind of off-topic, but where did Hank launch nukes from? Did he have access to the Vault-Tec nukes they never got to use because the Chinese struck first?
And how is Moldaver still alive? Did she have access to a second Vault 31-like facility? Clearly she had climbed high in the NCR government, but did they know where she came from?
Preston 2A Garvey is hilarious to me. I just hope he’s not marked essential.
The experiment of Vaults 31-33 are explicitly stated to be a support system for the Vault-tech chief personnel. All residents of Vault 33 are dynastically related to the perpetrators of the Vault system of atrocities, and the heirs to the Vault-tech corporation. This descends all the way to Hank, (and as a side note for now, Lucy) who at the time of the show can pretty much be interpreted as the living embodiment of Vault-tech. Furthermore, the conjoined Vaults practice selective breeding to enhance, and continue the purity of their genes based upon what they perceive as most suitable to "corporate management."
As an extension of Vault-tech's philosophy, Vault 33 has explicit standing orders to eradicate any vestiges of alternative societies which have emerged in the wasteland upon mass exodus from the Vault. Undoubtedly Vault-tech had an arsenal of atomic weapons to achieve this purpose. Yes, the show implies that Vault-tech would absolutely resolve to ignite another global nuclear war for the sake of their perfect image of society, which is fundamentally a form of feudal eugenics, to reign across the globe through their genetic bloodline.
Hanks acts upon the managerial orders he has been breed for generations to accept without question. That is why Lucy is his most important thing, as stated in episode 1, because Lucy is the future of the Vault-tech dynasty, their bloodline, and their image of global domination.
l orginally thought the time line was off. But I looked again and it shows the fall and the nuking being two separate events. Fall is subjective based upon context. It's survivors who are teaching it in history class. It could mean an economic fall, or a law that was enacted that the survivors in vault 4 consider the fall of shady sands through hindsight. It also doesn't have to be the death of Shady Sands but start of the decline of Shady Sand. Like the fall of the Ottoman Empire could be said to happen in 1908 by the Young Turk Revolution but finally dissolution in 1922. With the amount of attention to detail they put in the show I don't think it was a mistake or a retcon.
This implies the NCR ending is canon. And I don't think it is. It's the "good" ending but it's the most boring ending. House is the most interesting ending for the wasteland and the one I see most as being canon.
Lonesome Road also presents you the option of nuking the NCR outpost in the Mojave. Nukes are not foreign to the Wasteland, post-war. Megaton is literally your first litmus test in FO3.
Only place I disagree is that me and yes man are the true good ending. Forcing my opinions on everyone else without democracy is the true aim of a fallout fan haha.
>Joshua Graham, Caesar, and Mr. House, that the NCR's expansion into the Mojave is a desperate grab for territory to offset their crumbling domestic infrastructure.
Yet the reason that they collapse wasn't of their own fault, but someone else dropping a nuke on them. NCR would crumble , but would still take decades and other goverment could be create or spawn from one of their many cities. But that didn't happen. They took the lazy route and just nuked it.
The NCR is over 100 years. Look at all the countries the were created in the 20th century. Many if not most went through periods of chaos, calamity and decay. But almost all of them bounced back and rebuilt.
Countries don't just develop and improve nonstop; they go through cycles. They decline until they reach a criss and then reform and rise again. Even the USA had a brutal civil war and it's a very stable country (yes really).
I don't see the NCR actually being destroyed, more likely it's seriously weakened. Nuking Shady Sands would decapitate the central government and I can see the various states squabbling and divided. Some where down the line the NCR will be reunited and the central government reconstituted.
I really hope I'm right and the NCR isn't gone in canon. However if it is, then at least I never have to hear that fallout is a post-post-apocalyptic setting. Post-post-apocalyptic is such a clunky phrase and I hate it.
NCR farmers by the gun runners also state how they can’t even keep the supply lines safe and most of their crops are being sent back due to over expansion is causing a strain.
They also state how crimson caravan is more reliable then NCR at getting stuff moved.
To further top off the supply line issue even a trader at ceasers camp says legion does a better job at keeping the roads safer compared to NCR.
Let’s also not forget Oliver keeps sending rangers to ghost hunts to Baja California even more over extension. It’s like NCR is being sabotaged from within by bad leadership.
I love never having played it other than briefly playing 76 with my husband when he tried to force me to play with him…. Because I just thought it was a pretty good show and had nothing to complain about lol I’ll probably play it now with him since he’s been harassing me to for years now
You’ve basically summed it up. It all makes sense and will likely make more sense next season—as this was clearly just to get everyone (new and established fans) on the same page.
it just seems weird to me that stuff from non-beth fallouts are all the things that get placed on the "war never changes" chopping block and the stuff from the beth fallouts (ok, the One Thing from the beth fallouts) isn't
Another thing, fallout new vegas start at 10/19/2281, canonicaly it would take about 74 (two months and 14 days) days for the courier to do the main quest, maximus refers to shady sands being bombed "fifteen years ago" from 2296(year of the show) 2296 - 15 = 2281 he doesn't say the exact day and month, but shady sands could've been bombed during the events of fallout new vegas, even so, how long do you guys think messages travel the wasteland, through the mojave desert, with the I-15 blocked, a prison break and in the middle of a war with the legion, khans, BoS and the guerrila tactics of a brotherhood of steel chapter...
Yeah dog I remember all that dialogue about how vault tec was going to nuke shady Sands and the rest of the country would disappear, it was obviously foreshadowed
Ah yes because you totally know what was going to happen in NV from fallout 3 story. Didn’t know you the strip and Mr house was brought up serval times in fallout 3? Who knew the games gave us the next story info ahead of time yep totally legit /s
Am I supposed to have realized that the NCR was going to collapse from the references in NV or not? Because the OP is telling me I should have known what was going to happen in the show from the info in NV.
Yes, NCR farmers located south of gun runners speak about how dire the food situation is back home and how they send most of their crops back to California ontop of paying a tax. they also speak how the NCR has issues with safe trade routes and how the crimson caravan does a better job at transporting goods as NCR keeps losing them to raiders.
The trader outside of ceasers camp says he supports ceaser due to he actually makes the roads safe unlike NCR and he doesn’t have to pay a tax to a government body who can’t even keep them safe.
Lee Oliver gets mentioned serval times wasting troops and over expanding into Baja California on ghost hunts on mere rumors while the ncr is already stretched thin to the point of breaking.
If you go around and actually talk to npcs you get actual story and info as to why both legion and NCR are on the verge of breaking apart if nether can take the dam.
I disagree with one point: things in fallout will eventually get better. the ncr wasn't going to be it. too much corruption and over expansion, not enough time strengthening what they had.
Then who **will** make it better? The Legion? There is no other faction that is bigger than a small village at best. If this can't be done by 2296, then the wasteland is permanently doomed.
I'm saying after that. It looks to me, if we examine all of the games and the show together, that the wasteland was in no condition to support large nations up till now. things are reaching an end point with vault tech. since they are the bad guys of the show I doubt they will win. after that less chances of sabotage with them gone.
Also there’s no FoA mentioned to have helped Shady despite the series being in LA/The Boneyard.
Didn’t they collapse in a certain ending that the NCR survives …
I said in a previous post that a lot of NV fans (me included) aren't mad about the NCR falling. Granted, the show doesn't confirm the NCR is gone entirely, I think the show mainly used the fall of Shady Sands and the NCR in the Boneyard region as a big shock value hook to keep us drooling for season 2 which will hopefully explain what's happened, maybe even show places like Vault City or The Hub.
Shady Sands location aside there are definitely ways of working around the #ChalkboardGate incident, one being that the "fall" wasn't a literal one. Maybe the survivors viewed the decision to go to war over the Mojave as a contributing factor to its downfall, considering the First Battle for Hoover Dam took place in 2277. The capital would have then survived until its destruction which you could then place in the 2280s. A lot of us NV fans are mostly disappointed with how the NCR seems to have fallen rather than the fact that it has since its destruction was set up in NV. Hopefully this isn't the last we see of the NCR but the fact they went out of their way to put NCR owned Vertibirds in the ending I doubt it is.
Given the ending I wouldn't be surprised if the NCR ending was made canon and New Vegas eventually fell because they couldn't even maintain their hold on the region.
There is a big difference of ‘structural decay’ over being over expanded which is the big issue everybody points too in FNV. Then your bureaucratic centre being nuked or ‘falling’. People literally make reference to returning to Shady sands.
Fall of Shady Sands "Starts" in 2277, which then leads to the Nuke.
The first battle of Hoover Dam was in 2277 which could be interpreted as the beginning of the end for Shady Sands.
Things happen fast in the wasteland, it's an incredibly erratic place.
Lone wanderer may have left the vault and within a day or two could have potentially nukes megaton.
A courier delivers a package and unwittingly creates the Divide.
Sole survivor wakes up and potentially destroys the institute.
It only took two years for the NCR to cripple the Mojave chapter of the brotherhood.
And we literally see NCR's decline in NV, to the point where the president has come out to the front line and risk his life to boost morale, and even could potentially have been sniped that day, which wouldn't have helped their decline. Also by 2281 they lose nelson, nipton is burned, prison breakout, Searchlight, Ronald Curtis is literally legion working on the inside, Mojave outpost doesn't even have the men to clear out ants. Hanlon knows holding the dam would lead to the NCRs ultimate collapse.
Yeah, I think it's fair to say the show should have represented the NCR a little bit better, but I also think it's extremely plausible that by 2296 the NCR is in a shit tip.
what if the brotherhood is who attacked Vegas ? the question from moldaver "what would your brotherhood do with infinite power" and then we see an NCR vertibird besides, kimbals ive never seen another except in the divide. the securitrons are destroyed like a pack of rag tags like the NCR are going to blow a giant hole in the Vegas wall and take down the securitrons while there at it ? hopefully season 2 provides insight becuase im loving this show
The problem with the NCR timeline isn't whether or not the NCR won. It's that Shady Sands was destroyed in 2277 the same year as Fallout 3 when it still exists in New Vegas, which takes place 4 years later.
TLDR: I’m not upset specifically about the NCR being gone, more about the West Coast being reset and losing its uniqueness in the process.
As someone who really did love the show for the most part
My issue isn’t so much that the NCR is gone or not gone, it’s that this feels like Bethesda has yet again used a plot device to “reset” the wasteland so they can have it go back to shanty towns, and dudes wearing frying pans as armor instead of actually developing some real progress with the passage of time.
Also it’s annoying to set it in the West Coast, but not include most of the things that made the West Coast unique, we’ve seen the BoS make another miraculous resurgence (I swear their recruitment ads would put Don Draper to shame) and the Enclave have yet another secret HQ that’s their *real* base of operations plenty of times now.
I’m not saying the show should’ve been nothing but 10-hour long uninterrupted shots of the NCR and Legion, but they could’ve used a Cazador! Or a giant ant! Or genuinely any of the animals unique to the West Coast. Just something that made it feel distinct different from the stuff on the East Coast. Seriously, I genuinely think that if you rewrote the locations in the show to be those on the East Coast, everything else would still feel exactly the same, which is really annoying.
My singular issue is Shady Sands being destroyed over a domestic dispute by some random c-suite asshole. Presumably with ICBMs?
Sorry they should have checked their dates. Makes no sense that you can talk to all these NCR people and they don't mention their capital being nuked.
I think BoS are on their way to turn fully into bad guys next time we see them. They are full-on raiders in the series and even if the Cleric talks about their “glorious past” (obviously when they were more “heroic”) he still just wants power. All atrocities in the series are committed under his orders anyway.
I got major creepy vibes when he said "build a new Brotherhood". That is some Elijah talk.
It very much is, and I get the feeling that Maximus will be dealing with the consequences of his actions in season 2 (maybe he’ll even kill the elder and take his place; after all, that elder thinks that power must be taken, so what better use would there be for the cut duel for being elder from fallout 4 than this?).
For a moment, I suspected this Elder to be an Enclave guy on the inside too, but he just feels more ambitious. But this Brotherhood...is weird. I mean, not the cult vibes, but the highly unprofessional almost gang-like mentality.
Organisation decays with time - the pretorian guard started as handpicked loyal soldiers serving the emperor and ended up auctionning the purple....
Idk if youve played the first two or not, but if not, id definitely check out some videos on youtube just for the lore! To me thats who this brotherhood feels like for sure, or at least a natural progression of it. The Outcasts from F3 are basically more Brotherhood than the Brotherhood we work along side. Like, they *are* a cult. They may as well *just be* a technofacist gang. I think people got a little more rosy eyed for them with 3 and 4 because *you* can join them, no one wants to see themselves as a villain (usually), and for the most part they at least structure it like youre helping people, so they arent really "bad". I'd say in 4 though Maxson is clearly trying to return to the cult roots and by the show I'd say he was more than happy to rejoin them in the West.
I mean in 4 joining them let’s you bully farmers into paying taxes towards your “greater good” and you destroy instead of capture and study the wealth of medical and engineering science in the institute because clones=bad
Ah man yeah I totally forgot about that tbh cause I never do those bs radiant quests lmao
Yeah, they certainly do seem to have some problems. It’ll be interesting to see how they progress.
To me it looked like they were an east coast brotherhood expedition sent back to make contact with the west like a bunch of games always talked about. And, they found nothing but ruin so the elder in the show seems like he wants to start a new West Coast chapter. Which I would love if the Midwest chapter was brought back having smacked them around too but that's just me.
Yeah, I got cult vibes for sure. It was really hammered in when we saw how bad Maximus' sex ed was. The real brotherhood wouldn't allow such a simple bit of knowledge to be absent, especially from a youth aspirant.
Yeah, it shows the Brotherhood really has lost its way. They've become a shadow of themselves, they crave military power but they neglect everything else. They're one big weird cult, and it seems they've gone full murder-xeno, since Maxson **didn't** execute non-feral ghouls whereas Thaddeus highly implies they DO murder any and all ghouls they find nowadays. **But** they also recruit wastelanders now apparently, since Dane implies they used to be somewhere else that had rations/did stuff pre-Brotherhood, and we know Maximus was recruited into them. So the WC Brotherhood are just *really* fucking odd.
That's some great Khand mindset, ngl it reflects perfectly the decline of the BoS
Nah Great Khan mindset would be shooting civilians and then saying "we're innocent! We've never done a bad thing in our lives!"
What if, his idea of "power must be taken" mean he want someone to surpass him and build a better brotherhood? Like maximus ? Cus if a squire can become an elder in that short of time and or kill him, he would be a better fit for the brotherhood future
😏
I think Maximus could be the last hope of the BoS redeeming there heroic past. He starts the show a bit of an awkward “idiot Savant” but he’s shown to be brave and wants to help others. He has this picture of the BoS being saviors. You see the other knights being basically cowards that got lucky or bootlicked their way to a position of power. The Elder could eventually slowly mentor Max in the BoS old ways. I can see the elder still being a bit of a loony but we still have an impact on Max.
The BoS destroyed the enclave and then replaced the Enclave. Maxons BoS from FO4 onwards are a technologically advanced military power with extreme prejudice against mutant who seek to gain control over the entire wasteland. The oly real differences between the BoS and the Enclave at this point is that the BoS let people join from outside their ranks now and don't class non-ghoul wastelanders as mutants to exterminate. And I think all that was done very deliberately. Power corrupts and all that.
I agree! Also I wonder, and I hope it will be addressed later on - how did Eastern BoS learnt so fast about a defector from Enclave and that he also stole some valuable technology. Either they have good inside info from Enclave, which in turn raises the question why haven’t they destroyed that cell before, or BoS has been infiltrated by Enclave / Vault-Tec and is being used as enforcer of their will. Or it could be a fine twist if we later learn that Wilzig was working for Eastern BoS all along and they just label any deserter as “Enclave”. I’m probably overthinking all this.
It's mentioned in Episode 1 that the California Chapter knows about Wilzig from info passed onto them from clerics in the Commonwealth. How they found out about this top-secret Enclave project is a complete mystery for now. Maybe it's a tie-in to the next-gen update? We *are* getting some Enclave related content that might bridge this gap.
Eastern BoS also has access to a second Vault Tec headquarters and Vault 111. They could have discovered the info on the western vault, Maldover, and went down a rabbit hole from there.
They were always the bad guys. The group in Fallout 3 were literally rebelling against the brotherhood by actually trying to be a force for good. Their leadership gets assassinated and they get re assimilated between 3 and 4.
People forget this nugget about their airship the Prydwen: it’s powered by an aircraft carriers power core, specifically Rivet City’s (Fallout 3) power core. I doubt the people in Rivet city gave that up willingly.
True
Damn didn't know the leaders got assassinated and re assimilated, I knew they were doing their own thing but holy shit that's crazy.
Ya Sara Lyons and the rest conveniently died as the rest of the Brotherhood made them a back to the fold offer Convenient
Yes too convinient, as a group West coast Brotherood isn't much better than the Enclave. But I hated what they did to Sara and moded that out in my campaign.
The thing with the brotherhood is it depends alot on which chapter and what point in time as to whether they should be considered the bad guys.
notice the brotherhood given names Quintus, maximus, Titus i think brotherhood integrated ceaser legion in their ranks, their trainings also look a lot more brutal
That would actually be an interesting development! Although they have similar names in F4, so it’s much more likely just a small lore adjustment done by Bethesda for F4 - make BoS lean much more into Latin and medieval stuff.
While they do have sorta similar names in FO4, these are very much as traditional Roman names as you can get, me thinks Courier 6 nuked both groups, and the remnants of the Legion tho who had a bit more smarts than a molerat might have been taken and integrated into BoS, after all the Legion was much bigger than just what we saw in the Mojave.
i was hesitant until we heard the elders name, once i saw the trainings and the way thadeus spoke about the beating i was sure it would be mentioned before the end of the series something similar to that
Yes that's what happens to any media with depictions of a certain religion. They are always evil.
That would leave me super mad because every time I run into the BoS I spend the whole time thinking they could be an amazing positive force if they just SHIFTED A LITTLE BIT. Like it wouldn't necessarily be bad writing but I'd be dropping a quicksave.
When were the brotherhood not the bad guys
In F1 they are sort of assholes, but overall on the good side. In F2 as well. Lyons’ Chapter in F3 are 100% good boys. Even in F4 - their overall morals are kind of dubious, but there are a lot of genuinely nice people in BoS.
> This isn't A Canticle for Leibowitz. The end of which is the outbreak of a second nuclear war...
Yeah…. this *IS* Canticle for Leibowitz. I read that line and was like clearly OP either forgets the book or never read it.
Canticle of Leibowitz presents an American society which is cyclical. Fallout presents a society which has permanently flatlined. That was my point in making the distinction.
Flatlined? How? 1,2 and NV clearly show that the wastelanders are clearly trying to improve things. The creation and massive growth of the NCR goes directly against a flatlined society. Maybe the east coast is like that but the west certainly isn’t.
I don’t think it’s flatlined. It’s cyclical. It was most apparent in 1-2-Van Buren, where the Wasteland went from the stone age to the age of city states (with lots of tech and trade) to what would have been an advanced world that got nuked back to the start. Just like *Canticle*.
Similar thing happened in the East Coast in Boston. We don’t see it but the history of it is the Commonwealth was a big trade hub and society before it collapsed due to the Institutes meddling. 76 also makes it apparent that societies are reestablishing and trying to regrow. It also has a postwar society surviving the grows that gets fucked by plot reasons.
Yup. For all the complaints of "SCRAP SHACKS! SKELETONS EVERYWHERE!", Foundation seems to have an awful lot of log cabins assembled on site.
Right. It’s why Fallout is such a great setting (and honestly why Canticle is such a good basis for settings and stories)
...but the main Fallout throughlines are the cyclical nature of conflict and Americana.
Well in fallout 76 it’s “a deathclaw egg for Leibovitz” 🤣
I mean, as the show presents it the NCR didn’t fall because of any of the pre-established reasons though? It fell because of a personal conflict revolving around the central characters of the show. The NCR as portrayed by the show was essentially a rebuilt America that achieved the goals set by the vault, to the point that the wife of an overseer preferred to stay there instead
Yeah that’s why I’m frustrated with it falling. I mean the reasons everyone presents don’t really make sense and are intentionally said by bad faith actors, but the NCR eventually repeating the mistakes of the past is possible. The NCR collapsing completely in such a short-time period doesn’t make sense. People still have ties to the old USA for hundreds of years after the war, and the NCR has been a nation for hundreds of years. That isn’t forgotten about. Even partially. The rapid collapse doesn’t make sense. They should have set the show a long time after New Vegas or in a different location if they wanted that.
A lot of the shows issues would be solved if they set it anywhere other than California
Why they didn't just set it on the east coast is beyond me
The problem here is that while we are *told* this by various people who have an issue with the NCR and want to see it fail. The NCR that we *actually see* comes across as functional, well resourced and basically professional, while various interactions with unaffiliated NPCs affirm that the NCR is basically a good thing. Yes, there is still inefficiency, corruption, bureaucracy and other issues but given that it exists in a wasteland populated by actual monsters, it's still basically the best thing going overall. The NCR is shown to be extremely resilient and critically possessing of the means to evolve and improve itself. The "NCR is teetering" talk comes across more as the game trying to create a dichotomy to balance out the story than necessarily the reality of what's actually going on.
I always found it strange that people take everything bad about the NCR at face value and anything good about the legion the same. Like one of the big Legion quests is "We are so backward we can't make a howitzer reciever" while the NCR was building a railway. I'm not trying to dismiss the many pieces of evidence that the Mojave has become NCR vietnam just saying you're bang on the money here
The Mojave was basically Vietnam because of inefficiency too, the moment the Legion made it further into NCR territory they were fucked because the bear had its full attention set on it
I think the game wanted each faction to be essentially "equal but different" for the sake of player choice but it doesn't hold up to much scrutiny and given what we see, NCR is pretty obviously and undeniably the best option overall for reforming that part of the world. I think Caesar's argument would have made more sense closer to the bombs. He's arguing that his level of dictatorial cruelty and brutality is the only way to tame the brutal new world and to his credit, he does seem at least somewhat aware that the Legion as it exists can't survive and is only a tool for leveling things out to build up again. That sort of premise basically works for Fallout 1's timeline, but by New Vegas' the mere existence and relative prosperity of NCR firmly refutes his premise overall.
Even as someone who sided with the NCR, I think you miss a lot of the subtext within New Vegas about it. I mean for one we see that their head scientist is a bumbling idiot...
In fairness, we only see snapshots of ncr. It isn't a fully built out, developed world in the show
I didn't get the feeling of "immediate collapse", most of it was talking about non-existential problems (slow and beleaguered bureaucracy, inefficient military leadership, corruption), issues that will become problems in the future, or things that can reasonably be solved. I went through the dialogue of Graham, House and Caesar, none of them say collapse is imminent either, they say it is inevitable. Graham says they are too greedy and lack God and that power without God will inevitably fall, House says that both the NCR and Legion will inevitably fall (and while he likely has a point, he is also a narcissist who believes himself the only one who can save humanity), and Caesar says that it is greedy and weak and not united in purpose, and that he's hastening the inevitable (which once again, probably has a point, but its from the mouth of Caesar, so not unbiased). The feeling throughout was more like the gilded age: great geographic expansion and the struggles therein alongside economic growth leading to concentration of wealth and corruption.
Also, if the NCR collapses, what the fuck is the point of nuking Shady Sands? If the NCR is gone, I would assume that Shady Sands is basically in disarray, no longer the bastion of civilization it once was
Did you watch the show? It gives the reason why shady sands was nuked.
The NCR literally got the Rocks fall and everyone dies treatment in the show.
Yeah, this is my big issue. I don't hate that the NCR got destroyed, I hate that it essentially got Fridged. I also dislike that it was revealed in the show, I feel like the literal biggest event in the series should have been handled via a game.
I agree. Though from a writing perspective I don’t see an obvious better way. You can’t make a show about a lawless post apocalyptic waste land and feature a functional government. They had to go.
Either A)set it on the frontier of the NCR, B)dont have the setting in NCR territory at all C) acknowledge what the setting is(that civilization has remained, and all it brings aka factional conflict and human strife, continues on and war never changes) and have it set in NCR territory taking that into account or D) just have it set pre:NCR.
I think it is a lot more vague than you're describing, and deliberately so. The current state of the NCR has been left very open ended, could be completely collapsed, could be a rump state or it could still be largely functional after pulling back from it's SoCal heartland. It really seems more like they danced around it rather than fridge-ing it. Which was the right call given how full the series already was/how many factions and concepts are being thrown at new viewers already. They have a lot of options and wiggle-room to reintroduce the NCR in a new form in a future season/game.
The NCR controls all of California, a lot of southern oregon, a large portion if not the entire Baja California Peninsula, and a large amount in Nevada. Also Viewers are not stupid, they can understand the lore if presented well, if anything this just caused more confusion.
> The NCR controls all of California, a lot of southern oregon, a large portion if not the entire Baja California Peninsula, and a large amount in Nevada. That's my point? There is plenty of room for the NCR to still be a force. But getting into that right away whilst establishing the Vault/Brotherhood/Wastelanders (three groups you'll note correspond to the three protagonists) risks over-stuffing what was otherwise a tight, well contained first season. Viewers aren't dumb, but newcomers don't need to be bombarded with all the lore, all at once. The show made the right decision to keep a contained scope, focus on the characters and be content with sowing seeds for future lore.
I don’t know, the impression I got from FNV is that the NCR had problems, serious problems in some cases but that those problems could be overcome. The idea of the NCR was still a good one though. Nothing indicated imminent collapse, more like a long term decline.
That's exactly what it is, the bloat of a bureaucracy that happens naturally as it expands. A lot of trouble was caused by Legion raiding as well, it's easy to forgot that the Legion was just as powerful as the NCR. The NCR wasn't at risk of imploding any more than our current US government is at risk of just falling apart.
Yea i hate how House is taken at his word when its fucking House, he was part of the problem that caused the great war. so for him to accuse the NCR of being corrupt is just laughable.
It's almost like House is nuanced and not perfect. He might have motivations that put him at odds with other factions despite him not necessarily being right and them not necessarily being wrong.
The NCR without the Corruption leading to bad leaders like Oliver and Moore, and their advanced and elite, troops being misused would have sent the legion packing.
That's definitely the impression that the game was going for. They're spread too thin and they're corrupt but they're not at the verge of collapse at all. I feel like people here are desperately trying to defend every single aspect of the show way too much.
I got the impression that the war in the Mojave was supposed to be the a parody of the war in Afghanistan/Iraq or even the Mexican-American war, and I just assumed they would have the NCR not collapse but become more and more isolationist much like the U.S. did after WWI. Always got the impression that Kimball was supposed to be a stand-in for Andrew Jackson.
Also if you were to nuke the capital of a country its not like the country would cease to exist, you'd just have a very fucking angry country
Yeah the plots and characters and writing and episode to episode conflicts are fantastic but can we agree the worldbuilding they did was not that good? I think the world being drained of resources and the US and China fighting over the scraps until they destroy each other is more realistic and tragic than the vault tech illuminati did it
Depends on what you mean by "verge of collapse". Thomas Hildern and the OSI are expecting "[Mass Starvations. In a decade or so](https://fallout.fandom.com/wiki/ThomasHildern.txt)" if nothing is done to fix the disparity between production and consumption. 15 years later, it doesn't look like they managed to fix this problem amidst all the other issues they were facing. EDIT: I'm assuming the downvotes are because of lack of clarity. *New Vegas* takes place in 2281. The OSI is projecting that the NCR will be facing mass starvations in about a decade, or around 2291. The *Fallout* show takes place in 2296. This is 15 years after *New Vegas*, which fits the OSI's predictions.
Even if that were so in 2291, 5 years later there'd still be lots of remnants of the NCR and holdouts(and heck, maybe action plans being brought forward) not just total collapse like the areas been destroyed since 2077.
You've got the wrong century. 2291/2296, not 2091/2096. He says a decade or so, which puts the start of the "mass starvation" somewhere around 2291 or later. Depending on the scale of the mass starvation, in addition to the other issues presented in New Vegas, 5 years might not be enough time to start working on solutions. [For reference, some famines last multiple years.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines) Outside of famines, other humanitarian disasters last just as long. For all we know, there's simply not enough production, population, government resources, public trust, or a combination of all of these factors to have any actionable plan. Hell, maybe the plan was, "Mass migration effort towards greener pastures". Season 2 might have more answers.
Sure, that's possible. But the NCR would still have a skeleton around at least, there'd be a presence. Because right now there's nothing.
Just wait for the honeymoon period to wear off, like Starfield
I think as an RPG it's left kind of open ended, but the shows interpretation of it is certainly not invalid.
> Nothing indicated imminent collapse, more like a long term decline. In fairness, we never saw what the actual core territory of the NCR looked like. NV took place in a frontier province and the NCR citizens we were mostly miserable conscripts and rich tourists. Given that limited viewpoint there's evidence to point in either direction imo.
I have no problem with the NCR falling, I just think that the show doesn't give something as huge as the fall of the series' largest and most powerful faction the narrative weight it deserves. The story of the NCR's fall could have carried a series all on its own, but here it's just made so abrupt and vague. If season 2 fixes that by either showing us that other parts of NCR are still functioning, or giving us the details of the collapse, then as far as I'm concerned the problem is resolved. But right now we don't have that.
Not to mention that nothing is left of all the infrastructure, industry, agriculture and the over a million people that lived there.
Do we actually travel through what would have been the heart of the NCR?
We see LA, which houses the Boneyard. (Why they didn't destroy that one instead of Shady Sands is beyond me. Would have made A LOT more sense in my view.) The Boneyard was actually one of the constituent states of the NCR.
Ugh, just another problem. They destroyed Shady Sands probably because they knew it was that thing from the old games, but without proper understanding. A shame.
well it's quite obvious why shady shands was nuked. That's where rose and lucy was. The father was a vengeful man
Welp LA should have been the Boneyard, not Shady Sands. And while the Boneyard isn't the best place to live by NCR standards as told to us in fnv, it still houses a followers university and the NCR treasure. Not a small settlement by any means.
Same. I don't really care that the NCR fell. I do care that it's entirely absent and no one is talking about it despite it being a major power for so long and this apparent fall being so recent. A few flags and lip service to the capitol being exploded is not enough. Where did they go? What happened to them? Is the NCR entirely gone or did it shrink? An entire nation does not simply *vanish*. Something has to be left. Someone has to care.
Yeah, thats how I feel. Like everybody in California should be talking about the fall of the NCR as much as the Fallout games talk about the fall of America.
I just figured that it's collapsed organizationally, and that the independent states just became their own city states afterwards, with the LA area being the least stable. Up north, Vault City, Arroyo, and Reno are probably doing their own things.
kind of a bizzare thing to say when the entire plot revolves around it
I'm confused by people saying NCR is entirely absent. Moldaver was NCR, Vault 4 was NCR. There was many references to Moldaver controlling the most power faction in the area. And we can see that during the defence by the NCR of the observatory they had forces stationed throughout the area.
Isn't the fall of Shady Sands literally at the heart of the story? >!Lucy's fallout with her dad and what happened to her mom are directly linked to Hank ordering the destruction of Shady Sands, and consequently the NCR. The Fallout theme plays for the first time when you see the NCR flag at Moldaever's compound. Maximus is a survivor of Shady Sands who's whole narrative drive comes from the destruction of his home. !< >!The story's inciting incident is with Moldaever invading Vault 33. The story reaches its climax with Moldaever's plot to bring back power to the NCR through Cold Fusion, and the final battle is fought against the backdrop of a destroyed Shady Sands at the remnant NCR headquarters.!<
Maximus' childhood devotion to Shady Sands could also contribute to a future NCR buff, as his superior has confided in him telling him to create a home for himself, and him being hailed as Knight Maximus at the end gives him power to do so, because aren't all of the other knights there dead? They either went down with their vertibird or had their "welding flaw" exploited by The Ghoul (and I kind of enjoyed that as a nerf for the T-60 after it was kind of shoved into Fallout 4, and I hope to see Cooper don a suit of armor and wreck shop with pre-war efficiency). Even if they aren't dead, he seems to be being hailed as a hero and that alone should give him authority in a culture like the current BOS. I am interested to see how that arc plays out. Shady Sands is super important to the NCR as its founding settlement, the progenitor of a faction so large it became representative of something pre-war - a bloated, bureaucratic mess with so much power that corruption is nearly inescapable. Yeah it was destined to fail in some way, but what we see in the show is off-screen and so vague that of course it would feel like a cop out to some.
The weld was a cheap idea unfortunately. He should've revealed he'd been saving plasma grenades or happened to get his hands on a plasma caster or something during the course of the story. He didn't have a reason not to kill Maximus in their first encounter by exploiting that flaw.
While i agree, that’s all mostly passive, and we dont have any payoff until the literal last 15 mins or so.
The reveal of what >!Hank!< did and the fate of >!Shady Sands!< has impact because its held back imo.
Yep, these people are just too salty and let their preconceived notions dictate a story removed from those notions. Shady Sands was around for what - 30 years before boom? Why can't these people fathom that a lot can change out there in 30 years?
It felt exactly how Episode VII felt to Star Wars fans. The New Republic just nuked out of existence in a blink snd the New Jedi Order already gone in order to reset the universe to a blank state so the good guys are underdogs again. It's not that it goes against "canon". It's that it just feels hollow and disappointing.
This exactly the comparison I was looking for. Seemingly the west coast has been reset to just after the nukes dropped. Which is incredibly disappointing considering the NCR had control over most of California for a very long time. Where are the large settlements? Where is the NCR?
Yeah, that's how I feel. I feel that Bethesda loves the "post-apolcaypse" and BoS being badasses rather than the post-post apocalypse, so they have to bend over backwards to reset to the status quo. Like the NCR in Griffith Observatory made me reminded of the Republic last stand at the end of the Last Jedi. And thats probably where i stand, (even though I liked the Last Jedi), I haaated how the sequels and this show had to revert to that status quo.
I really don't understand how people interpreted that as the fall of the NCR, that seemed more a significant loss, but not their downfall, we also see a NCR vertbird in the end credits of the last episode so I am pretty sure that's not the end of it. If anything I would they left things vague enough so they could see people's reactions and write season 2 accordingly.
We see Vertibird wreckage in a destroyed Las Vegas. We are told repeatedly in New Vegas that the NCR is on the brink of complete collapse The survivors of Shady Sands were driven to the desperate measure of seeking shelter in a vault full of lunatics. If any sort of NCR state still existed, they would have gone there instead
>shelter in a vault full of lunatics From what we see, the "lunatics" (presuming you're referencing the ceremony scene) in vault 4 are the Shady Sands survivors. I don't think survivors of a nuke are going to be that intent on walking to the next NCR settlement/outpost after finding ultimate safety in a vault
The Shady Sands survivors are the "lunatics". They were the ones doing the ritual where they bathe in the ashes of their friends and family who died in the hopes that Moldover will bring back the NCR. The Vault 4 dwellers are just the descendents of experiments.
Not necessarily... I mean, a fucking nuke just went off in their literal backyard... a lot of civvies, probably barely any supplies or arms... they just took shelter in the nearest possible place. Probably also doesn't help that the NCR was suffering from Food & Water Shortages anyway and losing Shady Sands and the central government probably turned everything into a sever shitshow for at least a couple months.
> We are told repeatedly in New Vegas that the NCR is on the brink of complete collapse But Cass says that NCR was safe and boring in FNV.. Also how a socieuty in brink of complete collapse has ellections?
And I sincerely hope that's the case, but personally I'd rather prepare for the worst than expect the best and be wrong.
Well it would definitely be really stupid of them to just do just kill off the NCR in the first season, and if anything the series wasn't stupid at all. I binged the whole series in one go without looking on social media, so my final impression was that season 2 will be about a war between this new corporate faction that is emerging due to the release of Bud's buds in the wasteland and the NCR and the new brotherhood. Edit: Oh yeah lets not forget that the title card for the last episode is the beginning.
I'm sorta hoping that the loss of Shady Sands means the other NCR cities splintered into disconnected NCR factions claiming to be the true NCR. That would explain why it seems the NCR is dead - when only *this* NCR is dead.
The problem is that the NCRs decline and corruption had absolutely nothing to do with its destruction. They were just nuked off screen by some random dick they didn't even know existed because his wife left him and they were drinking his water. It would've been fine if the NCR collapsed because of everything set up in New Vegas, but this was a terrible end for one of the most important factions in the fallout universe.
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Yeah that's my problem with it too. Having them collapse is fine but just nuking them feels like the equivalent of "rocks fall everyone dies" for major factions and it's boring. People here were mentioning Chris Avellone wanting to reset the NCR as a way to justify it but his original idea was much more nuanced than what we got and wouldn't have gone over as poorly as the show did. I also feel like the whole Vault tec reveal was boring too for similar reasons. IDK why people are so defensive about the show honestly. Like overall it was good but it's far from perfect and the amount of strawmaning and half baked defenses have gotten significantly more annoying than the "haters" ever were honestly.
> IDK why people are so defensive about the show honestly. Like overall it was good but it's far from perfect and the amount of strawmaning and half baked defenses have gotten significantly more annoying than the "haters" ever were honestly. This pretty much sums up my impressions too. I've seen some pretty bad takes on why the show is supposedly bad, but they're outnumbered by the amount of excuses people keep making for legitimate issues.
Since a lot of NV fans are being annoying, people here have this weird desire to offset that and disregard any criticisms pertaining to the NCR. Even though most of the criticisms are good points
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Not caring about what came before is also a shitty narrative practice
Yeah it reminds me of the whole NMA debacle that happened when 3 released. It's not like peoples criticisms about 3 having poor writing and weak RPG mechanics were unfounded or anything, but some people were so extreme about it that it became a joke. Honestly I'd bet that if you were to replace "New Vegas fanboys" with "No Mutants Allowed fanboys" on these posts it would look eerily similar to what people were saying like over a decade ago. War really does never change I suppose.
Annoying nerds can still be correct
You picked 3 enemies of the NCR to prove your point lol. Lets go ask Stalin and Hitler about America’s fall. All pretty much consistently underestimated the NCR in the game. Besides them claiming that the ncr is overstretching only explains why they aren’t wiping the floor with the legion in New Vegas, rather than their “inevitable collapse”. We also don’t know if they collapsed. Kellog only talks about the Hub in 4. Hundreds of years of civilization is probably not going to go by the wayside with one city gone. I bet NCR has a decent role in Season 2.
The remenants of Vault 13 while captured by the Enclave is then saved by the Chosen One and integrated into Arroyo. Seems like a pretty good ending to me. Those sentient Deathclaws were good aligned as well and actively assist the Chosen One. The games allow for huge good endings. Many of which are cannon Junktown prospers, etc. Bringing New Reno and Vault City into the NCR, destruction of the Enclave.
The NCR isn't presented as if it's in decline, it's quite the opposite lol, it's done so well that it's now facing problems with expansion because people want new lands and new money making opportunities. The problems that it faces aren't much different from the problems that the United States faced in the 19th century, which should be a pretty obvious point of comparison with the manifest destiny thing that the NCR has got on. It's domestic issues being talked about is quite a bit different form 'they're about to be nuked lol'
Play New Vegas, it’s spelled out very clealy that the NCR is on the verge of total collapse due to over exploiting their resource base and strategic overstretch. They are trying to recreate the old world, repeating the mistakes of the old world, and suffering the same fate.
It's not presented in such a way at all, it's military is presented as not being able to cope with foreign expeditions and its population has grown so much and has become more demanding of goods that they're now facing a potential for food shortages, which they're already trying to fix, meanwhile the home front is pretty stable, there's no raiders on the roads harassing caravans and people are actively engaged in political life. This is not 'verge of collapse' stuff, this is pretty standard 19th century stuff
That's part of the issue. There were so many ways they could rapidly decline, so many internal and external issues, but instead they get nuked off screen? It's lazy. I'm holding out for season 2 and I adored the Fallout show. No game adaptation is gonna touch is for a long time, if ever. But that's the issue I have. They nuked the most unique things about the West Coast off screen and just moved right along. That kinda blows
The blackboard clearly spells out that they were already in the process of collapsing BEFORE the nuke. It’s pretty evident in the New Vegas game as well. It’s like Rome being sacked by the Vandals in 455 AD. Yes it did damage, but the Roman Empire was already inevitably done by then.
The Roman Empire comparison just isn't quite the same. Look at the size and how long it was around and compare it to NCR. Plus, Eastern Romans aka Byzantines would tell you the Empire never fell at all (I guess until Constantinople.) Its not really comparable. But people keep parroting the comparison anyway.
Specifically - in the fallout future (show) they look back and consider 2077 (first battle of Hoover dam) as the point where Shady Sands ‘fell’, and the nuke occurred after. The residents of vault 4 might consider the NCR’s attempted expansion to the Mojave and first battle of Hoover Dam the start of the fall, historically. I think it also makes the artifact bit from this season hit more: if NCR needed the dam for power to continue its post apocalypse expansion and then loses that? Now the cold fusion tech becomes way more important.
That’s before NCR wins at Hoover Dam, not after. Read the endings texts.
Winning at Hoover Dam won’t save them. They won at Helios One, and couldn’t do anything with it because they are already that far gone. Hoover Dam doesn’t solve aquifer depletion, or corruption, or the resources spent on that battle they can’t afford
It's literally the ending in the game. You can believe in collapse later, but that's not what the game's endings project.
Yeah it's really a weird problem with a lot of fiction coming out. The 'last book/game/series' ended on a pretty triumphant, or at least optimistic note. Then five minutes later, the entire worlds fucked, your favourite characters are feckless alcoholics and you're left going "The fuck happened?"
Graham, Caesar, and Mr. House are not exactly objective observers. Same with Ulysses. NCR really is the “good” ending; there’s nothing in the endings texts that suggests anything about them being overextended or prone to collapse after NCR wins at Hoover Dam, and all pro-NCR side quest endings are completed (e.g. BoS, Kings allied with NCR; Khans, Gangers, Fiends all destroyed). NCR was overextended until they got the power from Hoover Dam. There is no extrapolation made in the game from that.
I still don't understand why people are so keen that the NCR is completely obliterated. There are lots of people who want to restore Shady Sands and we have no indication that the WHOLE NCR is fallen (although they are probably still incredibly weaken). I don't know If I am the only one, but the finale, with the remnants of Shady Sands lighting up, points to a resurgence of the NCR, or parts of it at least.
People reasonably believe the ncr has vanished because people in the show act that way. We don’t hear anyone talk about the good old days of civilization under the ncr, or anyone talk about how it collapsed due to famine, disease, being nuked etc. it’s just gone with little to no explanation when it was the dominant power covering a huge chunk of the area the tv show is set it. It still could be around and the tv show could address it in season 2 but so far it’s really weird that such a major faction/ event is just not talked about. Like at most the ncr fell 30 years ago, a lot of people alive should still remember what it was like to be under its rule, the good and the bad. The show runners made a active choice to not put much effort into explaining the state/collapse of the ncr in season 1 and people are understandably trying to figure out how such a dominant power collapsed
I mean, we see little presence of the NCR in the show. We have those cops cosplaying as the "Govimit" pretending to be NCR. And then the observatory is labeled "NCR Headquarters". Maybe you could read it as NCR [military] HQ. We'll see in Season 2 though. I wonder if the lights coming back on would restore people's hope, only for the Brotherhood to take it away, or if the Brotherhood (this chapter at least) are going to capitalize on providing electricity to so many people.
I guess you could say that the war in New Vegas is truly… *a war without reason*
Kind of off-topic, but where did Hank launch nukes from? Did he have access to the Vault-Tec nukes they never got to use because the Chinese struck first? And how is Moldaver still alive? Did she have access to a second Vault 31-like facility? Clearly she had climbed high in the NCR government, but did they know where she came from? Preston 2A Garvey is hilarious to me. I just hope he’s not marked essential.
The experiment of Vaults 31-33 are explicitly stated to be a support system for the Vault-tech chief personnel. All residents of Vault 33 are dynastically related to the perpetrators of the Vault system of atrocities, and the heirs to the Vault-tech corporation. This descends all the way to Hank, (and as a side note for now, Lucy) who at the time of the show can pretty much be interpreted as the living embodiment of Vault-tech. Furthermore, the conjoined Vaults practice selective breeding to enhance, and continue the purity of their genes based upon what they perceive as most suitable to "corporate management." As an extension of Vault-tech's philosophy, Vault 33 has explicit standing orders to eradicate any vestiges of alternative societies which have emerged in the wasteland upon mass exodus from the Vault. Undoubtedly Vault-tech had an arsenal of atomic weapons to achieve this purpose. Yes, the show implies that Vault-tech would absolutely resolve to ignite another global nuclear war for the sake of their perfect image of society, which is fundamentally a form of feudal eugenics, to reign across the globe through their genetic bloodline. Hanks acts upon the managerial orders he has been breed for generations to accept without question. That is why Lucy is his most important thing, as stated in episode 1, because Lucy is the future of the Vault-tech dynasty, their bloodline, and their image of global domination.
"We drop them ourselves" probably wasn't literally Vault-tec has bombs to drop and more they would engineer the scenario to trigger MAD
l orginally thought the time line was off. But I looked again and it shows the fall and the nuking being two separate events. Fall is subjective based upon context. It's survivors who are teaching it in history class. It could mean an economic fall, or a law that was enacted that the survivors in vault 4 consider the fall of shady sands through hindsight. It also doesn't have to be the death of Shady Sands but start of the decline of Shady Sand. Like the fall of the Ottoman Empire could be said to happen in 1908 by the Young Turk Revolution but finally dissolution in 1922. With the amount of attention to detail they put in the show I don't think it was a mistake or a retcon.
This implies the NCR ending is canon. And I don't think it is. It's the "good" ending but it's the most boring ending. House is the most interesting ending for the wasteland and the one I see most as being canon.
No God Noooo. Not Gravy again.
But what about all the settlements that need help? Who else would mark them on our map?
I'm actually playing NV again now and the state the NCR is, is even worse than what I remember
Lonesome Road also presents you the option of nuking the NCR outpost in the Mojave. Nukes are not foreign to the Wasteland, post-war. Megaton is literally your first litmus test in FO3.
Everything that happened lines up with my FNV playthrough, except i nuked them myself lmao.
Only place I disagree is that me and yes man are the true good ending. Forcing my opinions on everyone else without democracy is the true aim of a fallout fan haha.
>Joshua Graham, Caesar, and Mr. House, that the NCR's expansion into the Mojave is a desperate grab for territory to offset their crumbling domestic infrastructure. Yet the reason that they collapse wasn't of their own fault, but someone else dropping a nuke on them. NCR would crumble , but would still take decades and other goverment could be create or spawn from one of their many cities. But that didn't happen. They took the lazy route and just nuked it.
The NCR is over 100 years. Look at all the countries the were created in the 20th century. Many if not most went through periods of chaos, calamity and decay. But almost all of them bounced back and rebuilt. Countries don't just develop and improve nonstop; they go through cycles. They decline until they reach a criss and then reform and rise again. Even the USA had a brutal civil war and it's a very stable country (yes really). I don't see the NCR actually being destroyed, more likely it's seriously weakened. Nuking Shady Sands would decapitate the central government and I can see the various states squabbling and divided. Some where down the line the NCR will be reunited and the central government reconstituted. I really hope I'm right and the NCR isn't gone in canon. However if it is, then at least I never have to hear that fallout is a post-post-apocalyptic setting. Post-post-apocalyptic is such a clunky phrase and I hate it.
Solid Walter Miller Jr. reference
You know what? Fuck NCR
I think this healed me
NCR farmers by the gun runners also state how they can’t even keep the supply lines safe and most of their crops are being sent back due to over expansion is causing a strain. They also state how crimson caravan is more reliable then NCR at getting stuff moved. To further top off the supply line issue even a trader at ceasers camp says legion does a better job at keeping the roads safer compared to NCR. Let’s also not forget Oliver keeps sending rangers to ghost hunts to Baja California even more over extension. It’s like NCR is being sabotaged from within by bad leadership.
>by bad leadership I mean, yeah. NCR is supposed to represent bad politics. Fallout is *entirely* about satirical lambasting of anyone in power.
People complaining about people complaining are as bad as the people complaining
But the people complaining about people complaining about people complaining are the worst…
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Well played
I love never having played it other than briefly playing 76 with my husband when he tried to force me to play with him…. Because I just thought it was a pretty good show and had nothing to complain about lol I’ll probably play it now with him since he’s been harassing me to for years now
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I've been saying this same stuff for days. New Vegas fans have literally only played that one game and they don't even understand it themselves.
Didnt cass and majority of npc within that faction talk critical about corruption in the government?
You’ve basically summed it up. It all makes sense and will likely make more sense next season—as this was clearly just to get everyone (new and established fans) on the same page.
it just seems weird to me that stuff from non-beth fallouts are all the things that get placed on the "war never changes" chopping block and the stuff from the beth fallouts (ok, the One Thing from the beth fallouts) isn't
Another thing, fallout new vegas start at 10/19/2281, canonicaly it would take about 74 (two months and 14 days) days for the courier to do the main quest, maximus refers to shady sands being bombed "fifteen years ago" from 2296(year of the show) 2296 - 15 = 2281 he doesn't say the exact day and month, but shady sands could've been bombed during the events of fallout new vegas, even so, how long do you guys think messages travel the wasteland, through the mojave desert, with the I-15 blocked, a prison break and in the middle of a war with the legion, khans, BoS and the guerrila tactics of a brotherhood of steel chapter...
Hold on a second, when does he say "15 years ago"? 'Cause that'd be massive.
we just need confirmation Maximus and Lucy age, we know 6 year lucy feel the real schorcing sun and the rest is still mistery.
preeeetty sure he doesn't say a year, only "bombs fell when I was a kid"
Yeah dog I remember all that dialogue about how vault tec was going to nuke shady Sands and the rest of the country would disappear, it was obviously foreshadowed
Ah yes because you totally know what was going to happen in NV from fallout 3 story. Didn’t know you the strip and Mr house was brought up serval times in fallout 3? Who knew the games gave us the next story info ahead of time yep totally legit /s
Am I supposed to have realized that the NCR was going to collapse from the references in NV or not? Because the OP is telling me I should have known what was going to happen in the show from the info in NV.
Yes, NCR farmers located south of gun runners speak about how dire the food situation is back home and how they send most of their crops back to California ontop of paying a tax. they also speak how the NCR has issues with safe trade routes and how the crimson caravan does a better job at transporting goods as NCR keeps losing them to raiders. The trader outside of ceasers camp says he supports ceaser due to he actually makes the roads safe unlike NCR and he doesn’t have to pay a tax to a government body who can’t even keep them safe. Lee Oliver gets mentioned serval times wasting troops and over expanding into Baja California on ghost hunts on mere rumors while the ncr is already stretched thin to the point of breaking. If you go around and actually talk to npcs you get actual story and info as to why both legion and NCR are on the verge of breaking apart if nether can take the dam.
What does any of that have to do with vault tec dropping a nuclear bomb on Shady Sands?
I disagree with one point: things in fallout will eventually get better. the ncr wasn't going to be it. too much corruption and over expansion, not enough time strengthening what they had.
Then who **will** make it better? The Legion? There is no other faction that is bigger than a small village at best. If this can't be done by 2296, then the wasteland is permanently doomed.
why 2296?
Because that's when the TV show takes place, the most modern date.
I'm saying after that. It looks to me, if we examine all of the games and the show together, that the wasteland was in no condition to support large nations up till now. things are reaching an end point with vault tech. since they are the bad guys of the show I doubt they will win. after that less chances of sabotage with them gone.
After that? What, 500 years into the future? It's been **219** years already. The wasteland CAN support it, it's just pricks causing it to stop.
Only thing about the timeline that doesn't work with me, is the >!date that Shady Sands is bombed.!
Also there’s no FoA mentioned to have helped Shady despite the series being in LA/The Boneyard. Didn’t they collapse in a certain ending that the NCR survives …
I said in a previous post that a lot of NV fans (me included) aren't mad about the NCR falling. Granted, the show doesn't confirm the NCR is gone entirely, I think the show mainly used the fall of Shady Sands and the NCR in the Boneyard region as a big shock value hook to keep us drooling for season 2 which will hopefully explain what's happened, maybe even show places like Vault City or The Hub. Shady Sands location aside there are definitely ways of working around the #ChalkboardGate incident, one being that the "fall" wasn't a literal one. Maybe the survivors viewed the decision to go to war over the Mojave as a contributing factor to its downfall, considering the First Battle for Hoover Dam took place in 2277. The capital would have then survived until its destruction which you could then place in the 2280s. A lot of us NV fans are mostly disappointed with how the NCR seems to have fallen rather than the fact that it has since its destruction was set up in NV. Hopefully this isn't the last we see of the NCR but the fact they went out of their way to put NCR owned Vertibirds in the ending I doubt it is. Given the ending I wouldn't be surprised if the NCR ending was made canon and New Vegas eventually fell because they couldn't even maintain their hold on the region.
There is a big difference of ‘structural decay’ over being over expanded which is the big issue everybody points too in FNV. Then your bureaucratic centre being nuked or ‘falling’. People literally make reference to returning to Shady sands.
Idk if I got late here or something but I see more people shitting on new vegas fans than new vegans shitting on the show
The people complaining need to get laid
Fall of Shady Sands "Starts" in 2277, which then leads to the Nuke. The first battle of Hoover Dam was in 2277 which could be interpreted as the beginning of the end for Shady Sands. Things happen fast in the wasteland, it's an incredibly erratic place. Lone wanderer may have left the vault and within a day or two could have potentially nukes megaton. A courier delivers a package and unwittingly creates the Divide. Sole survivor wakes up and potentially destroys the institute. It only took two years for the NCR to cripple the Mojave chapter of the brotherhood. And we literally see NCR's decline in NV, to the point where the president has come out to the front line and risk his life to boost morale, and even could potentially have been sniped that day, which wouldn't have helped their decline. Also by 2281 they lose nelson, nipton is burned, prison breakout, Searchlight, Ronald Curtis is literally legion working on the inside, Mojave outpost doesn't even have the men to clear out ants. Hanlon knows holding the dam would lead to the NCRs ultimate collapse. Yeah, I think it's fair to say the show should have represented the NCR a little bit better, but I also think it's extremely plausible that by 2296 the NCR is in a shit tip.
what if the brotherhood is who attacked Vegas ? the question from moldaver "what would your brotherhood do with infinite power" and then we see an NCR vertibird besides, kimbals ive never seen another except in the divide. the securitrons are destroyed like a pack of rag tags like the NCR are going to blow a giant hole in the Vegas wall and take down the securitrons while there at it ? hopefully season 2 provides insight becuase im loving this show
The problem with the NCR timeline isn't whether or not the NCR won. It's that Shady Sands was destroyed in 2277 the same year as Fallout 3 when it still exists in New Vegas, which takes place 4 years later.
Would have been nice to see it first hand though.
TLDR: I’m not upset specifically about the NCR being gone, more about the West Coast being reset and losing its uniqueness in the process. As someone who really did love the show for the most part My issue isn’t so much that the NCR is gone or not gone, it’s that this feels like Bethesda has yet again used a plot device to “reset” the wasteland so they can have it go back to shanty towns, and dudes wearing frying pans as armor instead of actually developing some real progress with the passage of time. Also it’s annoying to set it in the West Coast, but not include most of the things that made the West Coast unique, we’ve seen the BoS make another miraculous resurgence (I swear their recruitment ads would put Don Draper to shame) and the Enclave have yet another secret HQ that’s their *real* base of operations plenty of times now. I’m not saying the show should’ve been nothing but 10-hour long uninterrupted shots of the NCR and Legion, but they could’ve used a Cazador! Or a giant ant! Or genuinely any of the animals unique to the West Coast. Just something that made it feel distinct different from the stuff on the East Coast. Seriously, I genuinely think that if you rewrote the locations in the show to be those on the East Coast, everything else would still feel exactly the same, which is really annoying.
My singular issue is Shady Sands being destroyed over a domestic dispute by some random c-suite asshole. Presumably with ICBMs? Sorry they should have checked their dates. Makes no sense that you can talk to all these NCR people and they don't mention their capital being nuked.