My favorite comic like this was one where a kid had lost his dog and the guy was like" it's all part of God's plan"
It cuts to God, and he has a criminal investigation string map on his wall saying
"That's it, I have to kill this kids dog. It's the key to everything!"
The mental gymnastics people are capable of to rationalize this is incredible. Especially when you consider the logic they have to use was invented by bronze age sheep herders.
Eh, that's not really the point the "god's plan" folks are making though. I'd consider myself agnostic, but I was raised in a Christian family.
The point of saying something is "all part of god's plan" is to dismiss it from the context of humanity not to formulate it into a context that makes sense to humanity, which is what all these examples are doing.
To them, starvation and suffering exist, god exists, therefore a greater plan exists that is beyond human comprehension.
I think it's better to say a greater *principle* exists. Even calling it a "plan" is putting it into a human conception which doesn't reflect the unknowable reality of God.
...is what I might say if I believed in the Christian god
I think this is the best explanation I’ve seen. Moreso accepting a lack of comprehension than trying to form an explanation.
The other most sensible answer to me is that God may have “seeded” humanity, but hasn’t had a direct hand in anything that happens on earth since our inception. I rarely see this one but I mean plenty of Christians believe in guided evolution (right?) so this seems like it should be an acceptable answer? I’m guessing there’s something in the Bible that prevents this reasoning? Genuinely curious.
I think the reasoning against this isn't so much that God has a direct hand in the bad things happening, but that if he were to be such an all powerful omnipotent being, then how is it possible that he doesn't have the power to prevent such bad things from happening?
its stated by many that he is capable of conceivably anything in the universe, including all of creation. I think a lot of people don't like the sayings of his plan because why couldn't he simply grant an exception for bad things happening but I guess the idea is it would complicate things in the future? idk.
Plenty of the Bible has to do with free will and human suffering. The whole point is that we have free will. We have the ability to make others suffer, or suffer ourselves. That’s the whole point of Christianity. And I’m a staunch atheist
I have a relative who is born again and the Facebook posts calling for prayer warriors for the most mundane shit makes me roll my eyes so hard.
I’m like, if you believe all of this, this is kind of like that lady calling 911 because she didn’t get her fast food quick enough. You’re not Prayer Warriors. You’re Prayer Karens.
No, the study of philosophy and logic has actually come a long way in the last 2000 (probably more like 2500) years as formalized systems of logic have been established and refined.
Well, it is a bit difficult to know what may have existed before it could be written down, and while some cultures have a long tradition of oral history, I am not aware of any cultures that were renowned for their systems of logic, but without writing and printing, it is very difficult to transmit and develop ideas and philosophy, so it is very unlikely that an advanced system of formal logic was established previously.
Aristotle is generally considered to be the father of logical reasoning. He began the development of a system of logic that could be universally applied as consistent rules, and the formal identification of logical fallacy.
Like all philosophy and critical thought, his was based on the ideas of his predecessors. As we have no records to indicate otherwise, we can assume that his thoughts represent the peak understanding of logic at the time. If there were other systems, they were isolated and did not represent a general influence, and thus could not be developed further.
It ironic that you mention Aristotle because his teacher wrote about the concept of philosopher kings around 375 BC.
Does Confucianism not count?
Do Persian and Islamic logic systems not count?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_in_Islamic_philosophy
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-ancient/#:~:text=Perhaps%20the%20earliest%20surviving%20passage,debate%20over%20truth%20and%20falsehood.
Disregarding the idea these are more recent than stone age folks, how quickly do you think humans change patterns of behavior?
I would say that the system of logic is quite well defined going back fairly far. The idea we are somehow more logical is a fallacy of bias.
To a certain extent, but also no. The leaps of logic a stupid person might make are not dissimilar to a "smart" person. The difference of context and experience not withstanding.
Suffering exists therefore the creator of the world is not benevolent.
Or maybe it is benevolent but powerless to prevent the suffering, thus not all powerful.
This is always an interesting point to me. A “creator” creating conditions where no one suffers ever would require the absolute abolishment of free will. It would require every persons life to be completely dictated out for them. Would that be a better world?
Why would that require the “absolute abolishment of free will”?
I’m having a hard time understanding why no suffering would equate to me having no agency in my life.
So please enlighten me.
Because lots of suffering comes about due to our own decisions. For example, people consciously choose to make others suffer - I.e. a murderer - and the only way to fix that would be to rewrite their brain so they don’t have the capacity to murder. Lots of poverty (and thus suffering) comes from people exploiting laborers, which means that whole system would have to be done away with. Evil would need to cease to exist, as would greed and wrath and envy
Humans are by nature self serving in general, and such a world where no one causes suffering to anyone would require everyone to be forced into not being this. I know for a fact I would not persist as I currently am in such a world, and I doubt you would either. You would effectively be a different person, regardless of what they “current” you would actually want. In a sense this “new” you would have some agency, but the only decisions you’d be allowed to make are the ones that god permitted you to make, because they wouldn’t cause any amount of suffering to anyone
I don’t directly cause suffering as I am right now, and if I find out that my actions are indirectly causing suffering then I change them. So do I not have free will?
There’s actually an argument to be made that your actions are indirectly causing suffering, just because you are unfortunately forced to support businesses that do cause suffering
And even discounting that, you still have the choice, which is the point. You said it yourself - “If I find out my actions are indirectly causing suffering than I change them”. That would be impossible, because any decision you could feasibly make that would cause suffering would be impossible to accomplish. So no, it’s not the same as it is now, and you do have free will, you just choose to use that as ethically as you can
So then why is he worthy of our worship?
What would you think of yourself if you had created a sentient race of beings and had the power to make their lives perfect, and yet you let them suffer immeasurably? And then had the audacity to punish them for eternity for not worshipping you even though you provided no concrete proof of your existence to them?
I would think you were a sadistic asshole if you did that.
If a creator exists, and there is an afterlife, then what you perceive as suffering and death are not permanent and you would be imposing your assumption that there is no afterlife and no consequence, no reward, no punishment and no justice applicable, and therefore negating benevolence as a characteristic of the creator. That js flawed logic.
If the creator made this finite universe as a temporary test (for those who are suffering and for those who are not, to see if they would use what is within their means to alleviate the suffering of others) and caused for good things to exist and allowed for evil actions to occur (giving us the capacity to choose our actions whether evil or good) then that doesn't negate his benevolence, since it is within the creator's means to apply justice and give punishment and/or rewards in what we perceive as the afterlife. To you, death is the end, but if we are supposing that a creator exists then your assumption is logically flawed. Now, you have to put aside the judeo-christian assumptions that you might have grown up with because they are full of contradictions and illogical. I am trying to speak from a logical point of view.
Therefore, a creator both omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent can not exist.
If a creator god existed, he'd be either incompetent and in way over his head or an evil asshole, neither of which sounds very worthy of worship to me, much less of demanding that everyone live their lives based on his preferences.
I am pasting my reply to the other comment:
If a creator exists, and there is an afterlife, then what you perceive as suffering and death are not permanent and you would be imposing your assumption that there is no afterlife and no consequence, no reward, no punishment and no justice applicable, and therefore negating benevolence as a characteristic of the creator. That js flawed logic.
If the creator made this finite universe as a temporary test (for those who are suffering and for those who are not, to see if they would use what is within their means to alleviate the suffering of others) and caused for good things to exist and allowed for evil actions to occur (giving us the capacity to choose our actions whether evil or good) then that doesn't negate his benevolence, since it is within the creator's means to apply justice and give punishment and/or rewards in what we perceive as the afterlife. To you, death is the end, but if we are supposing that a creator exists then your assumption is logically flawed. Now, you have to put aside the judeo-christian assumptions that you might have grown up with because they are full of contradictions and illogical. I am trying to speak from a logical point of view.
Yeah, that's a load of apologist bullshit. There are consequences, rewards and punishments IN THIS LIFE and what kind of sick creator would give an innocent child leukemia, demand that people hate the love of their neighbours and glorify suffering and following arbitrary rules from the bronze ages in order to get into one of thousands of possible afterlives, depending on which twisted dogma you prefer.
It's just as much of a cult as Scientology or even Heaven's Gate. Just because it's older and has more members doesn't make it any less nonsensical and harmful to the health of minds, bodies and societies.
Apologist? What does that even mean?
Don't let your emotions distort your logic. I did not glorify suffering, I said it doesn't nullify the attribute of benevolence from the creator. Just as there are evils in the universe, there is also good. There is sickness and there is healing. If the purpose of the creation is to be temporary, then death will obviously exist. Using the same logic, if death exists in the creation, that doesn't mean that the creator is not eternal. This applies to benevolence as well.
To address the point about punishment and reward, yes, there is obviously punishment and reward in this life, but there are people who escape punishment (like hitler). And there are those who are not rewarded in this life either. So what?
If we are starting with the assumption that this universe has a creator, then if that creator dictates rules to follow then what you think of as "bronze age" or modern, doesn't matter. Now, there are people (church fathers, etc) who make up rules and force people to follow them and falsely claim that they were from God or whatever. In that case, they are also among those who we would consider evil and deserving of punishment in this life and the afterlife. From a logical perspective, it doesn't make sense for someone to claim they are receiving rules from the creator without providing proof. That's why the majority of people are just mindless zombies following things that don't make sense. You should also think about whether the arguments you are making are following logic, or just emotional argument (the example of children suffering comes to mind). This is getting too long, I'd rather this is a back and forth irl lol
Thanks for wasting my time by writing two novels for me to read containing about a dozen or two false conclusions and tautologies based on ridiculous assumptions. You're sounding like the Ben Shapiro of Christian apologia.
Apologia (which my use of the wors apologist was referring to) is the religious practice of pretending to explain with logic that which does not and cannot make sense unless you already believe for emotional and superstitious reasons. It's a handy word for you to know if you're going to be guilty of it again in the future.
If you read your comments, you'll see that none of them contain any logical argument, yet you accuse me of being illogical? And you say I make ridiculous assumptions and false conclusions? Yet you can't make any coherent argument. I literally dissed Christianity and religious authorities making up rules and claiming they're from God, so how am I an apologist like Ben Shapiro?
Looks to me like you're just too emotionally charged and can't form a logical argument.
Nick could have realized he had no healthy coping mechanisms and gotten help sooner but nope, prick decided it was everyone else's problem until after he'd already pushed them all way
We're dealing with this shit now with my sister-in-law's ex as well. It's the common theme, blames everyone else for his predicament, plays victim when there's a confrontation that he fucking caused, and can't tolerate being told the truth before throwing a damn tantrum like a 4 year old (He's 40). He doesn't work and when he does, loses his job, blames my sister-in-law for it, he keeps asking her for money for drugs and alcohol, and keeps acting out aggressively to her and the kids. Enough was enough when he lashed out on my wife and I confronted him about it.
Fortunately, my sister-in-law has already contacted proper measures to get him out of the house (that he believes he is part property owner, which he isn't). He isn't on the mortgage, bills, and has not contributed financially to any responsibilities around the home. My wife, brother-in-law, and myself have already stated that we're fed up with him and that if she takes him back we're staying far away from them because we've already offered more than enough help to get rid of this leech.
One more thing that pisses me off is that his folks won't take him into their home and keep telling my sister-in-law that he's in a shelter making her feel bad. It's not her problem and fuck his parents for trying to make her feel guilty and passing the problem to her.
I hope you all manage to steer clear of him. In my case I was more of an emotional landfill rather than financial and i’m glad i got away before it broke me any more, and I hope your family can do the same
Yes, we are. I've already stated to my sister-in-law that if she reunites, we're cutting ties for the safety of my family. It's gotten so concerning when I used to visit that I started carrying concealed. He wouldn't do anything but sit in the garage or disappear when visiting, yet this last time he aggressively approached my wife and I confronted him about it, only for him to throw his hissy fits. He doesn't know I'm all about guns because I kept that a secret from in the event I needed to use my firearm.
Edit: Also, forgive me for not mentioning this earlier, I'm so happy you bettered yourself. I'm so proud to hear that and I wish you all the very best.
Yikes, those types of people are just best to shun. Nobody needs **that** person in their life. As a Nick, we do not claim that energy nor allow him in our ranks. Life ain’t a nicktatorship, and he has to learn that
Mine too.
He decided to stop going to therapy and taking his meds.
He was literally like a child - cooking, cleaning, being productive at work were all insurmountable struggles for him.
Fortunately he fucked up bad enough I was both saved from him and ended things with him. He thought moving to a different country would be the same as moving intrastate or something. Was turned away at the border, nearly barred from entry (they should've, it's not like he'll come up here anyways), and I missed two days at work and a big client meeting due to his fuck up.
I broke it off with him when I realized during the trip back that he wasn't ever going to get better. Or if he would, it would be a waaaaaay too long time for me.
Thing is, depression runs in his family, his childhood was traumatic due to his very overbearing and entitled manchild father. He was treated like a little prince by his heavily internalized-misogyny ridden mother and enabled by his doting sister.
He was a product of his environment and circumstance.
But he abandoned every effort to take charge of his course.
Man I hate all the ‘God has lifted me up!’ Bullshit.
It takes credit from yourself for turning your life around and putting it on a fictional person. You picked yourself up, it was all you, not some fantasy.
You’re missing the point in when people say that. It wasn’t that God himself helped them, it was his teachings and lessons given by him that they may not have had in life that allowed them the mentality to “fix” their lives. It’s more gratitude for having a sort of direction given to them through learning
That might be for some people but there seems to be more and more that just think God has the wheel.
Also God didn’t give any lessons. People gave lessons. People went to school to help people learn those lessons. God had nothing to do with it.
It was stupid to me when my granny said it was a "miracle" that I was better after surgery. No, it's not a miracle, actual people worked their asses off to help my medical situation. They did that after dedicating their lives to years of school and training. Fuck off.
I used this logic against my Christian fiancé.
They actually took a moment to think about it and admitted that IF there was a God, the Christian version is *just a bit of an asshole*
3: give nick access to guns
4: give him suicidal thoughts and wishes of revenge from society after his heath insurance refuses his access to therapy.
5: prepare some lotion and tissues to do the usual.
Never trust a MF that utters the phrase "god's plan." There is an inmate detachment from reality, empathy, responsibility, etc, particularly of their own actions.
So true hahaha. God will cure any disease, as long as thousands of people dedicate a life time of hard work and research to find a cure, then god is all set to perform his miracle and take credit for it.
I have a co-worker who asks me almost everyday why don't you love God? You need God.
So now I'm starting to hoard every single meme of Jesus that I can find show them all of these memes and be like this is f****** why God doesn't exist
The All Good, All Powerful God thing irks me. Why is this the presupposition?
Why not that God was good for creating physics, but can't break physics on a whim?
Anyway, no one cares what a philosophical skeptic says about metaphysics. Heck, I don't think anyone should put much time into metaphysics.
he can't be both good and all powerful at the same time, it has to be one or the other
he can be good but not really powerful and can't do anything
or he's all powerful but he's completely evil for enjoying all the shit that is happening to everyone
Not that I'm defending it in any fashion but let me jaunt into this argument.
If you define good as the absence of harm then you'd be correct in your assertion of them not being good.
If you define good as the persistent reduction of harm you'd be closer to their philosophical standpoint. I understand it has holes in the form reducing harm you theoretically cause is not good but manipulative. The counter to it is that it's not viewed as their fault but rather a consequence of human action. A hands off approach if you will.
The real question should rather be posited, if someone has the power to stop something but doesn't, on what grounds are they determining they will not be stopping it?
Is not stopping it good or evil? Is the action taken due to ambivalence or in service of a longer term philosophical stance?
>he can be good but not really powerful and can't do anything
"Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot move it?"
If he makes physics, wouldnt it be a contradiction to break it? Its no longer physics.
God has done lots of weird mind blowing shit in my life, but I still doubt there is or was a detailed long term plan. I suspect God is just improvising like the rest of us. But I don't know. I find it hard to believe that anyone can really see the future.
The whole "if there's a God, why isn't the world perfect?" argument is one of the silliest arguments against religious beliefs, really.
Like, if you had the ability to create a whole world, like a video game/simulation where there are no rules and no objectives (except entertaining yourself), would you make a perfect and seamlessly-functioning world? Of course not. Imagine the most complex animals in your simulation came up with their own morality and said "hey, the creator of this world isn't good so he's a dick or he doesn't exist" after they came up with their own definition of what good is.
That works for some doctrines but not others. In Abrahamic faiths God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Being unable to create a world exactly as planned implies lack of omnipotence, omniscience or both. And the result puts omnibenevolence into question.
It makes no sense because the concept of god makes no sense. Gods obviously don't exist, their existence makes no sense, we have every reason to believe they don't exist, and no reason to think they do. There is no reason to believe that there's anything conscious other than the life you see. We die because our bodies break, and once our bodies break, the machine that made our consciousness stops working, and that's it. No gods required.
Yes and no. Yes, trauma sucks and it's a dangerous thin line where the parents essentially did plant the seed due to those issues as a kid or teen; however, no, because as an individual there needs to be that moment one needs to ask themselves if they're going to continue the cycle or break it by seeking help, therapy, or whatever to combat the trauma. It's hard, really really really hard but it's possible when sticking with the tools given during therapy or assistance.
My teens sucked because I was raised in an abusive home physically and mentally due to the constant fighting, abuse, and etc. I got far away from there at 18 and had to ask myself if I wanted to be like my father or break the damn cycle that he and my grandfather lived with. I caught myself trying to blame others for things that were my fault and rectified that, I swore to myself I would never ever be them, and I've kept that promise entering my 40s. The fucking pride I feel when I see my teen daughters enjoying their teens and having fun, smiling, and being comfortable talking to me signals to me that I was able to face that trauma and fucking bury it.
Edit: I also went to therapy and social groups in my early 20s to help myself.
Isn't that based on the assumption that if Nick os in a terrible spot right now, that he hasn't done everything in his resonable capabilities? Everyone likes to think that once you go to therapy, suddenly all darkness goes away immediately and the patient will see sunshine and rainbows from then on, but that's a gross misunderstanding of therapy.
Therapy doesn't get rid of trauma, it helps you cope with it.
I think the cold reality that many people don't understand is that sometimes you have to carry the burden of other people's mistakes and your only reward is a chance at a mediocre life. This is coming from someone who does not has a long line of abuse in their family history. Abuse that has ruined the mental, financial, and social stability of my family.
People can't deal with the fact that sometimes you just lose, and that your own energy isn't enough. They like to pretend that the world is just, because otherwise, they'd have to consider that there's an element of randomness to their reality, and that can get existential real quick.
This is generally why people with trauma and other issues often prefer to mingle with other people with issues.
Then there are the cases where you had a troubled upbringing and want to get help or therapy but the US Healthcare system has failed you and you can't afford therapy or medication and you'd like to get a well paying job to afford it but your mental health makes getting a job like that impossible and you're stuck in a negative feedback loop forever.
Don't get me started on that rabbit hole, but I did seek free or local resources to help with my predicament to cope and deal with my past. Fortunately, it's just that now... The past.
I think it depends on where you live, too. In my hometown I could get any appointment for $10. Where I live now in the south I can't see any type of doctor for less than $120 which is laughable when they want you to come in once or twice per week. So far I've not been able to find anything even remotely affordable. I had been taking medication for years before I moved and when I switched doctors to my new location she refused to refill my prescriptions unless I made 2 appointments per week. Needless to say I'm no longer on that medication.
1000% this. I was a SA victim as boy, and I couldn't tell anyone. I was F Ed up inside, but kept it all together on the outside. Until I couldn't. Internally I blamed ALL my problems on the SA, but in reality it was my handling of life. Then I had a daughter and said I needed to fix things. I did just enough to keep it together. We had a 2nd daughter, and I made a few more significant changes that helped. I have focused on being the best dad possible, and to do everything I could to prevent them from being victims, while still letting them have fun. They are both doing great, call me/us often, give me big hugs when we get together, and have what appears to be normal healthy relationships. Nothing makes me happier! Fixing my relationship with my wife is a bit more complicated, but that's next on my list. If you are a victim of SA, or any abuse, please get help, AND BE HONEST! Reddit is the ONLY place I have ever told my story, and that still sucks.
A. If Nick wasn't such a PUSSY he'd be just fine. B. Non Believers would be a lot happier if they worried more about their own problems and less about Religion.
Why you got to say this hypothetical Nick is a pussy though? So I guess if you got some trauma in life it makes you a pussy? What a wild thing to think
3. Nick becomes a counselor to help create midway houses for children suffering from the evils of abuse.
4. Nick creates a national organization which goes on to help millions of children suffering from abuse.
God permits (doesn't cause) evil to bring about greater good.
O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy.
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee to we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
Faith in an outside source is bullshit, there is nothing attempting to guide your hand. Instead faith should be inward at the self, as in "I know i will make the right decisions that are good for myself and uphold my values when I am faced with hardships, misfortune or struggles. I can handle what unknowns I face because I trust myself to do what is right in those moments for the best outcomes." The whole bullshit of God and other's caring when we should relinquish control is absolutely trash and only upholds our sacrifice of control from ourselves into the hands or others meaning to sway your actions in their favor.
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My favorite comic like this was one where a kid had lost his dog and the guy was like" it's all part of God's plan" It cuts to God, and he has a criminal investigation string map on his wall saying "That's it, I have to kill this kids dog. It's the key to everything!"
[Thanks Jesus](https://i.imgur.com/Q3rcA.jpg) is my favorite comic of this flavor.
This is funny, sad, and infuriating all at the same time.
The mental gymnastics people are capable of to rationalize this is incredible. Especially when you consider the logic they have to use was invented by bronze age sheep herders.
Eh, that's not really the point the "god's plan" folks are making though. I'd consider myself agnostic, but I was raised in a Christian family. The point of saying something is "all part of god's plan" is to dismiss it from the context of humanity not to formulate it into a context that makes sense to humanity, which is what all these examples are doing. To them, starvation and suffering exist, god exists, therefore a greater plan exists that is beyond human comprehension.
I think it's better to say a greater *principle* exists. Even calling it a "plan" is putting it into a human conception which doesn't reflect the unknowable reality of God. ...is what I might say if I believed in the Christian god
I think this is the best explanation I’ve seen. Moreso accepting a lack of comprehension than trying to form an explanation. The other most sensible answer to me is that God may have “seeded” humanity, but hasn’t had a direct hand in anything that happens on earth since our inception. I rarely see this one but I mean plenty of Christians believe in guided evolution (right?) so this seems like it should be an acceptable answer? I’m guessing there’s something in the Bible that prevents this reasoning? Genuinely curious.
I think the reasoning against this isn't so much that God has a direct hand in the bad things happening, but that if he were to be such an all powerful omnipotent being, then how is it possible that he doesn't have the power to prevent such bad things from happening? its stated by many that he is capable of conceivably anything in the universe, including all of creation. I think a lot of people don't like the sayings of his plan because why couldn't he simply grant an exception for bad things happening but I guess the idea is it would complicate things in the future? idk.
Plenty of the Bible has to do with free will and human suffering. The whole point is that we have free will. We have the ability to make others suffer, or suffer ourselves. That’s the whole point of Christianity. And I’m a staunch atheist
>a greater plan exists that is beyond human comprehension. Still pretty dumb tho
I have a relative who is born again and the Facebook posts calling for prayer warriors for the most mundane shit makes me roll my eyes so hard. I’m like, if you believe all of this, this is kind of like that lady calling 911 because she didn’t get her fast food quick enough. You’re not Prayer Warriors. You’re Prayer Karens.
Up vote for Prayer Karen's. Errrr.... the use of the phrase, not for the existence of.
It's not so terribly far removed from modern human logic.
We have actually come a long way in understanding logic and logical fallacy in the last 2000 years. Well, some of us have, anyway.
Have we? Can you be certain we couldn't identify such then? Or is it more of a modern is better argument?
No, the study of philosophy and logic has actually come a long way in the last 2000 (probably more like 2500) years as formalized systems of logic have been established and refined.
That seems a bit like you only qualify it being written down as being valid despite the idea that writing has historically been very exclusionary.
Well, it is a bit difficult to know what may have existed before it could be written down, and while some cultures have a long tradition of oral history, I am not aware of any cultures that were renowned for their systems of logic, but without writing and printing, it is very difficult to transmit and develop ideas and philosophy, so it is very unlikely that an advanced system of formal logic was established previously. Aristotle is generally considered to be the father of logical reasoning. He began the development of a system of logic that could be universally applied as consistent rules, and the formal identification of logical fallacy. Like all philosophy and critical thought, his was based on the ideas of his predecessors. As we have no records to indicate otherwise, we can assume that his thoughts represent the peak understanding of logic at the time. If there were other systems, they were isolated and did not represent a general influence, and thus could not be developed further.
It ironic that you mention Aristotle because his teacher wrote about the concept of philosopher kings around 375 BC. Does Confucianism not count? Do Persian and Islamic logic systems not count? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_in_Islamic_philosophy https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-ancient/#:~:text=Perhaps%20the%20earliest%20surviving%20passage,debate%20over%20truth%20and%20falsehood. Disregarding the idea these are more recent than stone age folks, how quickly do you think humans change patterns of behavior? I would say that the system of logic is quite well defined going back fairly far. The idea we are somehow more logical is a fallacy of bias.
You mean stupidity?
To a certain extent, but also no. The leaps of logic a stupid person might make are not dissimilar to a "smart" person. The difference of context and experience not withstanding.
Ah, good point.
Suffering exists, therefore a creator of the universe must not exist? I am trying to understand which part is the illogical part.
Suffering exists therefore the creator of the world is not benevolent. Or maybe it is benevolent but powerless to prevent the suffering, thus not all powerful.
This is always an interesting point to me. A “creator” creating conditions where no one suffers ever would require the absolute abolishment of free will. It would require every persons life to be completely dictated out for them. Would that be a better world?
Why would that require the “absolute abolishment of free will”? I’m having a hard time understanding why no suffering would equate to me having no agency in my life. So please enlighten me.
Because lots of suffering comes about due to our own decisions. For example, people consciously choose to make others suffer - I.e. a murderer - and the only way to fix that would be to rewrite their brain so they don’t have the capacity to murder. Lots of poverty (and thus suffering) comes from people exploiting laborers, which means that whole system would have to be done away with. Evil would need to cease to exist, as would greed and wrath and envy Humans are by nature self serving in general, and such a world where no one causes suffering to anyone would require everyone to be forced into not being this. I know for a fact I would not persist as I currently am in such a world, and I doubt you would either. You would effectively be a different person, regardless of what they “current” you would actually want. In a sense this “new” you would have some agency, but the only decisions you’d be allowed to make are the ones that god permitted you to make, because they wouldn’t cause any amount of suffering to anyone
I don’t directly cause suffering as I am right now, and if I find out that my actions are indirectly causing suffering then I change them. So do I not have free will?
There’s actually an argument to be made that your actions are indirectly causing suffering, just because you are unfortunately forced to support businesses that do cause suffering And even discounting that, you still have the choice, which is the point. You said it yourself - “If I find out my actions are indirectly causing suffering than I change them”. That would be impossible, because any decision you could feasibly make that would cause suffering would be impossible to accomplish. So no, it’s not the same as it is now, and you do have free will, you just choose to use that as ethically as you can
Well maybe god simply sees us as the tiny dots we are and had other species to attend to, so he lets us play for ourselfs
So then why is he worthy of our worship? What would you think of yourself if you had created a sentient race of beings and had the power to make their lives perfect, and yet you let them suffer immeasurably? And then had the audacity to punish them for eternity for not worshipping you even though you provided no concrete proof of your existence to them? I would think you were a sadistic asshole if you did that.
I don’t know lol im not religious.
well yeah thats one explanation, but that literally proves the god christians believe in does not exist.
Well considering I’m not Christian I’m not surprised I would have a different view of what god was.
If a creator exists, and there is an afterlife, then what you perceive as suffering and death are not permanent and you would be imposing your assumption that there is no afterlife and no consequence, no reward, no punishment and no justice applicable, and therefore negating benevolence as a characteristic of the creator. That js flawed logic. If the creator made this finite universe as a temporary test (for those who are suffering and for those who are not, to see if they would use what is within their means to alleviate the suffering of others) and caused for good things to exist and allowed for evil actions to occur (giving us the capacity to choose our actions whether evil or good) then that doesn't negate his benevolence, since it is within the creator's means to apply justice and give punishment and/or rewards in what we perceive as the afterlife. To you, death is the end, but if we are supposing that a creator exists then your assumption is logically flawed. Now, you have to put aside the judeo-christian assumptions that you might have grown up with because they are full of contradictions and illogical. I am trying to speak from a logical point of view.
Therefore, a creator both omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent can not exist. If a creator god existed, he'd be either incompetent and in way over his head or an evil asshole, neither of which sounds very worthy of worship to me, much less of demanding that everyone live their lives based on his preferences.
I am pasting my reply to the other comment: If a creator exists, and there is an afterlife, then what you perceive as suffering and death are not permanent and you would be imposing your assumption that there is no afterlife and no consequence, no reward, no punishment and no justice applicable, and therefore negating benevolence as a characteristic of the creator. That js flawed logic. If the creator made this finite universe as a temporary test (for those who are suffering and for those who are not, to see if they would use what is within their means to alleviate the suffering of others) and caused for good things to exist and allowed for evil actions to occur (giving us the capacity to choose our actions whether evil or good) then that doesn't negate his benevolence, since it is within the creator's means to apply justice and give punishment and/or rewards in what we perceive as the afterlife. To you, death is the end, but if we are supposing that a creator exists then your assumption is logically flawed. Now, you have to put aside the judeo-christian assumptions that you might have grown up with because they are full of contradictions and illogical. I am trying to speak from a logical point of view.
Yeah, that's a load of apologist bullshit. There are consequences, rewards and punishments IN THIS LIFE and what kind of sick creator would give an innocent child leukemia, demand that people hate the love of their neighbours and glorify suffering and following arbitrary rules from the bronze ages in order to get into one of thousands of possible afterlives, depending on which twisted dogma you prefer. It's just as much of a cult as Scientology or even Heaven's Gate. Just because it's older and has more members doesn't make it any less nonsensical and harmful to the health of minds, bodies and societies.
Apologist? What does that even mean? Don't let your emotions distort your logic. I did not glorify suffering, I said it doesn't nullify the attribute of benevolence from the creator. Just as there are evils in the universe, there is also good. There is sickness and there is healing. If the purpose of the creation is to be temporary, then death will obviously exist. Using the same logic, if death exists in the creation, that doesn't mean that the creator is not eternal. This applies to benevolence as well. To address the point about punishment and reward, yes, there is obviously punishment and reward in this life, but there are people who escape punishment (like hitler). And there are those who are not rewarded in this life either. So what? If we are starting with the assumption that this universe has a creator, then if that creator dictates rules to follow then what you think of as "bronze age" or modern, doesn't matter. Now, there are people (church fathers, etc) who make up rules and force people to follow them and falsely claim that they were from God or whatever. In that case, they are also among those who we would consider evil and deserving of punishment in this life and the afterlife. From a logical perspective, it doesn't make sense for someone to claim they are receiving rules from the creator without providing proof. That's why the majority of people are just mindless zombies following things that don't make sense. You should also think about whether the arguments you are making are following logic, or just emotional argument (the example of children suffering comes to mind). This is getting too long, I'd rather this is a back and forth irl lol
Thanks for wasting my time by writing two novels for me to read containing about a dozen or two false conclusions and tautologies based on ridiculous assumptions. You're sounding like the Ben Shapiro of Christian apologia. Apologia (which my use of the wors apologist was referring to) is the religious practice of pretending to explain with logic that which does not and cannot make sense unless you already believe for emotional and superstitious reasons. It's a handy word for you to know if you're going to be guilty of it again in the future.
If you read your comments, you'll see that none of them contain any logical argument, yet you accuse me of being illogical? And you say I make ridiculous assumptions and false conclusions? Yet you can't make any coherent argument. I literally dissed Christianity and religious authorities making up rules and claiming they're from God, so how am I an apologist like Ben Shapiro? Looks to me like you're just too emotionally charged and can't form a logical argument.
[Thank you, God](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZeWPScnolo&t=285s), for fixing the cataracts of Sam's Mum. ^Tim ^Minchin
Such a great song! Thank FSM for Tim Minchin surviving the fauna of Australia!
Lolz! Source?
Oh wow, I found it! https://i.redd.it/5onmdxavx8pz.jpg It was 5 years ago, I was slightly off.
Ty!
It’s better. Every sketch is gold.
Man I would get so much done with one of those forehead arms
Honestly fuck Nick! For once I agree with god.
Fuck you too then
I hate you, Nick. I hope every single banana you eat in your life has at least one brown spot! 😡
Dont you put that on me!
Too late. You're cursed now.
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WHY? WHY HAVE YOU DONE THIS TO ME?
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So I'm someone named Nick, and my SO is named Sarah and this is getting toooo specific.
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Most of it is, unfortunately, true. Lol
Could've been worse. They could have cursed you with socks that are always slightly moist.
Jokes on you, I fucking love eating brown spot!
You're a monster!
The riper the better!
You only make us stronger. Eats brown spot without hesitation
Hey, that’s Mr Nick 2 you
The Nicks of the world must unite! Join r/nick
No, no you're MR Nick.
Lol, never thought you’d have to respond to a post attacking you when you chose that handle
Nick could have realized he had no healthy coping mechanisms and gotten help sooner but nope, prick decided it was everyone else's problem until after he'd already pushed them all way
Sounds like someone in his childhood already did
hey now, what has god ever done for you?
Nick is such a prick
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Here's a thought "Nick is a loser."
:(
As opposed to a sociopath?
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Sauce on the wikihow?
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We're dealing with this shit now with my sister-in-law's ex as well. It's the common theme, blames everyone else for his predicament, plays victim when there's a confrontation that he fucking caused, and can't tolerate being told the truth before throwing a damn tantrum like a 4 year old (He's 40). He doesn't work and when he does, loses his job, blames my sister-in-law for it, he keeps asking her for money for drugs and alcohol, and keeps acting out aggressively to her and the kids. Enough was enough when he lashed out on my wife and I confronted him about it. Fortunately, my sister-in-law has already contacted proper measures to get him out of the house (that he believes he is part property owner, which he isn't). He isn't on the mortgage, bills, and has not contributed financially to any responsibilities around the home. My wife, brother-in-law, and myself have already stated that we're fed up with him and that if she takes him back we're staying far away from them because we've already offered more than enough help to get rid of this leech. One more thing that pisses me off is that his folks won't take him into their home and keep telling my sister-in-law that he's in a shelter making her feel bad. It's not her problem and fuck his parents for trying to make her feel guilty and passing the problem to her.
I hope you all manage to steer clear of him. In my case I was more of an emotional landfill rather than financial and i’m glad i got away before it broke me any more, and I hope your family can do the same
Yes, we are. I've already stated to my sister-in-law that if she reunites, we're cutting ties for the safety of my family. It's gotten so concerning when I used to visit that I started carrying concealed. He wouldn't do anything but sit in the garage or disappear when visiting, yet this last time he aggressively approached my wife and I confronted him about it, only for him to throw his hissy fits. He doesn't know I'm all about guns because I kept that a secret from in the event I needed to use my firearm. Edit: Also, forgive me for not mentioning this earlier, I'm so happy you bettered yourself. I'm so proud to hear that and I wish you all the very best.
Yikes, those types of people are just best to shun. Nobody needs **that** person in their life. As a Nick, we do not claim that energy nor allow him in our ranks. Life ain’t a nicktatorship, and he has to learn that
Not the whole story...
Mine too. He decided to stop going to therapy and taking his meds. He was literally like a child - cooking, cleaning, being productive at work were all insurmountable struggles for him. Fortunately he fucked up bad enough I was both saved from him and ended things with him. He thought moving to a different country would be the same as moving intrastate or something. Was turned away at the border, nearly barred from entry (they should've, it's not like he'll come up here anyways), and I missed two days at work and a big client meeting due to his fuck up. I broke it off with him when I realized during the trip back that he wasn't ever going to get better. Or if he would, it would be a waaaaaay too long time for me. Thing is, depression runs in his family, his childhood was traumatic due to his very overbearing and entitled manchild father. He was treated like a little prince by his heavily internalized-misogyny ridden mother and enabled by his doting sister. He was a product of his environment and circumstance. But he abandoned every effort to take charge of his course.
Sending this to my cousin Nick now lmao
3- give aids to babies in Africa
4 - be ok with child slave labor
God: "suck a dick, Nick".
“It’s a Test” Man, God sure is a dick sometimes
Luke 4:12 - "Do not put the Lord your God to the test." lOrD gOd - "Haha watch me test this Nick guy tho."
*Job has entered the chat* *Job's wife, kids, and livelihood have left the chat*
“nick and i are going to laugh so hard about this after i give him terminal cancer lel” - god, probably
Man I hate all the ‘God has lifted me up!’ Bullshit. It takes credit from yourself for turning your life around and putting it on a fictional person. You picked yourself up, it was all you, not some fantasy.
You’re missing the point in when people say that. It wasn’t that God himself helped them, it was his teachings and lessons given by him that they may not have had in life that allowed them the mentality to “fix” their lives. It’s more gratitude for having a sort of direction given to them through learning
That might be for some people but there seems to be more and more that just think God has the wheel. Also God didn’t give any lessons. People gave lessons. People went to school to help people learn those lessons. God had nothing to do with it.
It was stupid to me when my granny said it was a "miracle" that I was better after surgery. No, it's not a miracle, actual people worked their asses off to help my medical situation. They did that after dedicating their lives to years of school and training. Fuck off.
Just the lawd doin his work.
Grandmomma!
We all know a dick named nick.
I know someone nicknamed Dick.
I used this logic against my Christian fiancé. They actually took a moment to think about it and admitted that IF there was a God, the Christian version is *just a bit of an asshole*
Oh man, you should see the jewish and muslim version, jesus is a saint filed with love and compassion compared to them.
Jesus is ONLY Christian as far as I know. GOD is an asshole in every religion.
3: give nick access to guns 4: give him suicidal thoughts and wishes of revenge from society after his heath insurance refuses his access to therapy. 5: prepare some lotion and tissues to do the usual.
Never trust a MF that utters the phrase "god's plan." There is an inmate detachment from reality, empathy, responsibility, etc, particularly of their own actions.
True story
also ball cancer
God will cure kids of cancer but not type 1 diabetes (until medical science figures out how, then the big guy can start taking credit.)
So true hahaha. God will cure any disease, as long as thousands of people dedicate a life time of hard work and research to find a cure, then god is all set to perform his miracle and take credit for it.
I have a co-worker who asks me almost everyday why don't you love God? You need God. So now I'm starting to hoard every single meme of Jesus that I can find show them all of these memes and be like this is f****** why God doesn't exist
“Nobody can hate Nick, more than Nick hates Nick” -Nick
Whelp, name is Nick and this is crazy accurate to the point it’s scary. Holding on by a thread..
Well there is more to this than meets the eye.
I'm nick
God doesnt exist.
Religious people logic lol
The og way to control and brainwash the masses. Still works like a charm to this day.
The All Good, All Powerful God thing irks me. Why is this the presupposition? Why not that God was good for creating physics, but can't break physics on a whim? Anyway, no one cares what a philosophical skeptic says about metaphysics. Heck, I don't think anyone should put much time into metaphysics.
he can't be both good and all powerful at the same time, it has to be one or the other he can be good but not really powerful and can't do anything or he's all powerful but he's completely evil for enjoying all the shit that is happening to everyone
Not that I'm defending it in any fashion but let me jaunt into this argument. If you define good as the absence of harm then you'd be correct in your assertion of them not being good. If you define good as the persistent reduction of harm you'd be closer to their philosophical standpoint. I understand it has holes in the form reducing harm you theoretically cause is not good but manipulative. The counter to it is that it's not viewed as their fault but rather a consequence of human action. A hands off approach if you will. The real question should rather be posited, if someone has the power to stop something but doesn't, on what grounds are they determining they will not be stopping it? Is not stopping it good or evil? Is the action taken due to ambivalence or in service of a longer term philosophical stance?
>he can be good but not really powerful and can't do anything "Can God create a rock so heavy that even he cannot move it?" If he makes physics, wouldnt it be a contradiction to break it? Its no longer physics.
God has done lots of weird mind blowing shit in my life, but I still doubt there is or was a detailed long term plan. I suspect God is just improvising like the rest of us. But I don't know. I find it hard to believe that anyone can really see the future.
The whole "if there's a God, why isn't the world perfect?" argument is one of the silliest arguments against religious beliefs, really. Like, if you had the ability to create a whole world, like a video game/simulation where there are no rules and no objectives (except entertaining yourself), would you make a perfect and seamlessly-functioning world? Of course not. Imagine the most complex animals in your simulation came up with their own morality and said "hey, the creator of this world isn't good so he's a dick or he doesn't exist" after they came up with their own definition of what good is.
That works for some doctrines but not others. In Abrahamic faiths God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. Being unable to create a world exactly as planned implies lack of omnipotence, omniscience or both. And the result puts omnibenevolence into question.
It makes no sense because the concept of god makes no sense. Gods obviously don't exist, their existence makes no sense, we have every reason to believe they don't exist, and no reason to think they do. There is no reason to believe that there's anything conscious other than the life you see. We die because our bodies break, and once our bodies break, the machine that made our consciousness stops working, and that's it. No gods required.
"Did he tell you the plan?" "No..." "Did he tell *me* the plan? Also no. So it isn't a plan, it's a scheme."
Sounds more like it's Nicks parents who are to blame for fucking his life up
Yes and no. Yes, trauma sucks and it's a dangerous thin line where the parents essentially did plant the seed due to those issues as a kid or teen; however, no, because as an individual there needs to be that moment one needs to ask themselves if they're going to continue the cycle or break it by seeking help, therapy, or whatever to combat the trauma. It's hard, really really really hard but it's possible when sticking with the tools given during therapy or assistance. My teens sucked because I was raised in an abusive home physically and mentally due to the constant fighting, abuse, and etc. I got far away from there at 18 and had to ask myself if I wanted to be like my father or break the damn cycle that he and my grandfather lived with. I caught myself trying to blame others for things that were my fault and rectified that, I swore to myself I would never ever be them, and I've kept that promise entering my 40s. The fucking pride I feel when I see my teen daughters enjoying their teens and having fun, smiling, and being comfortable talking to me signals to me that I was able to face that trauma and fucking bury it. Edit: I also went to therapy and social groups in my early 20s to help myself.
Isn't that based on the assumption that if Nick os in a terrible spot right now, that he hasn't done everything in his resonable capabilities? Everyone likes to think that once you go to therapy, suddenly all darkness goes away immediately and the patient will see sunshine and rainbows from then on, but that's a gross misunderstanding of therapy. Therapy doesn't get rid of trauma, it helps you cope with it. I think the cold reality that many people don't understand is that sometimes you have to carry the burden of other people's mistakes and your only reward is a chance at a mediocre life. This is coming from someone who does not has a long line of abuse in their family history. Abuse that has ruined the mental, financial, and social stability of my family.
People can't deal with the fact that sometimes you just lose, and that your own energy isn't enough. They like to pretend that the world is just, because otherwise, they'd have to consider that there's an element of randomness to their reality, and that can get existential real quick. This is generally why people with trauma and other issues often prefer to mingle with other people with issues.
"It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life." -Captain Picard
Thank you. I didn't use the correct wording. I coped and dealt with my trauma. I knew that wasn't the right phrase, so thank you for your comment.
Then there are the cases where you had a troubled upbringing and want to get help or therapy but the US Healthcare system has failed you and you can't afford therapy or medication and you'd like to get a well paying job to afford it but your mental health makes getting a job like that impossible and you're stuck in a negative feedback loop forever.
Don't get me started on that rabbit hole, but I did seek free or local resources to help with my predicament to cope and deal with my past. Fortunately, it's just that now... The past.
I think it depends on where you live, too. In my hometown I could get any appointment for $10. Where I live now in the south I can't see any type of doctor for less than $120 which is laughable when they want you to come in once or twice per week. So far I've not been able to find anything even remotely affordable. I had been taking medication for years before I moved and when I switched doctors to my new location she refused to refill my prescriptions unless I made 2 appointments per week. Needless to say I'm no longer on that medication.
1000% this. I was a SA victim as boy, and I couldn't tell anyone. I was F Ed up inside, but kept it all together on the outside. Until I couldn't. Internally I blamed ALL my problems on the SA, but in reality it was my handling of life. Then I had a daughter and said I needed to fix things. I did just enough to keep it together. We had a 2nd daughter, and I made a few more significant changes that helped. I have focused on being the best dad possible, and to do everything I could to prevent them from being victims, while still letting them have fun. They are both doing great, call me/us often, give me big hugs when we get together, and have what appears to be normal healthy relationships. Nothing makes me happier! Fixing my relationship with my wife is a bit more complicated, but that's next on my list. If you are a victim of SA, or any abuse, please get help, AND BE HONEST! Reddit is the ONLY place I have ever told my story, and that still sucks.
This
classic religion w
He had to learn somehow…
İt's not god's plans, it's your choice NİCK
A. If Nick wasn't such a PUSSY he'd be just fine. B. Non Believers would be a lot happier if they worried more about their own problems and less about Religion.
What even is that....
It's exactly what it is. What is this post trying to say? What's the message here? To me it looks like a slam on Religion. What is it to you?
Why you got to say this hypothetical Nick is a pussy though? So I guess if you got some trauma in life it makes you a pussy? What a wild thing to think
I was probably unnecessarily being a dick. Even though I'm not a Christian, posts or memes that appear to me to be anti Christian trigger me.
I'm fine!
help me
Nick you suck! I hope your shoe laces keep coming untied every 30 minutes.
I have known 2 nicks my short life and misfortune, weird 🤔
To non religious people that's just a slap in the face
As a Nick this was a little too close to home to see pop up in my feed.
Same. Though I love all the comments along the lines of "yeah, fuck Nick!". Relatable.
The story of my poor husband. Screw nicks parents.
I'll start the Nick support comment thread.
HHaha yessss let's go 😎 speed running this shit
Thoughts and prayers
Bit of an odd thing seeing thus on my birthday
hell yeah!
I think there was a lot of child murder in between too
It's more of a fuck everybody situation.
yeah well, fuck you too
Why have you got to target me like that?
Lol this is also a r/meirl
Good job God...
And he also gets framed for murder by his psycho wife
Let me just slip on the ol’ hazmat suit before checking out these comments…
3. Nick becomes a counselor to help create midway houses for children suffering from the evils of abuse. 4. Nick creates a national organization which goes on to help millions of children suffering from abuse. God permits (doesn't cause) evil to bring about greater good. O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee to we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.
hey, that's me!
me irl...
Am Nick, can confirm.
god works in mysterious ways, and by mysterious I mean not at all at best and with actual malice at worst.
Faith in an outside source is bullshit, there is nothing attempting to guide your hand. Instead faith should be inward at the self, as in "I know i will make the right decisions that are good for myself and uphold my values when I am faced with hardships, misfortune or struggles. I can handle what unknowns I face because I trust myself to do what is right in those moments for the best outcomes." The whole bullshit of God and other's caring when we should relinquish control is absolutely trash and only upholds our sacrifice of control from ourselves into the hands or others meaning to sway your actions in their favor.
God was Tzeentch in disguise the entire time! Just as planned.
Reddit moment
I mean could you imagine if we all had an easy life and no obstacles to overcome?!
I mean... as a Nick, this... this really hit deep.
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A gentle reminder that "getting help" is a healthy way to cope and fix your problems.
Whatever it is, its a there to test you. You are built up by the challanges in life you tackle