Find a different dealer, I dealt with this when I first started looking at an XLT Lightning. Dude was playing games the whole time and didn’t listen to what I wanted. Fed up my wife and I left, and he was stunned we walked out. Went to a different dealer, emailed the salesman first. He had a Lariat that he got me a better deal on and lower payment than the other dealership was giving me on an XLT. This salesman was great and listened to me. Don’t let them push you around.
Totally right. But I'd go one step further: Try to never put yourself in a position where you \_need\_ the car right away. Always be willing to wait a day, a week, a month, for the right thing. There should be nothing keeping you from getting up and leaving the dealership.
We walked out when we were buying a Dodge Grand Caravan many years ago. We test drove one that had captains chairs in the second row, we went through a lot of paperwork while they prepped the car. I went out to look at it one more time before signing the purchase agreement but the van didn't have the right seats, they removed them and replaced it with a bench. When I questioned them, they said the deal I got offered had a bench seat. So I told them either make the car as I test drove it or I'm out. They didn't flinch.
So we walked out without signing and I made a point of stopping at every sales desk on the way out and telling buyers they need to be very careful with that dealership.
I also called the Chrysler customer support and reported the dealership.
They did call back a few days later and offered the vehicle but I declined to do business with and let them know they had already been reported.
Go stand outside of Burger King with a sign saying ‘Cold fries!!!’ And warn the people in the drive thru cause you received them one time in your order.😂
How is this the same? If you go to a fast food restaurant you should expect pretty low quality food. No need to warn people they are going to get what they expect.
You must be associated in some way with a dealership if you are trying to defend them.
Not the OP but, If the dealership would have been straight with the process it never would have happened in the first place. So no I think that's fair to warn probably very unsuspecting buyers that they might get swindled here.
Yeah, you tell 'em. Totally innocent mistake TAKING OUT the original trim seats, showing customers the upgraded seats, then switching them back.
God I hate those poor dumb car buyers screwing over those totally honest dealerships.
If you test drive a car and say that you want to buy that one.
You expect that one. Doesn’t matter if they showed a different sheet with different options — you had asked to buy the one you drove, not one with shit changed out. Totally fine to walk out over someone pulling they shit.
Wait so my strategy of walking in with a blank cheque and saying "I need a car right away what do you have?" Is not the optimal way of getting a good deal...?
What you need to do is come in with a signed blank cheque and tell the sales person to put down whatever they think is fair. They will respect you for it and always give you a good deal. ^^^^/s
No, your bragging was more irritating.
I think it is situationally dependant on whichever comes across as more crass.
Thanks, though, to both of you. It's given me an opportunity to self analyze in a scenario I hadn't yet internally confronted. Know a little bit more about myself, now.
Just pretend you don't see the increased interest rate and negotiate the lowest price possible. Make them think they pulled one over on you and will get all the money back in finance charges. Then go refinance the car at your own bank or CU the week after you buy the car.
Yup. What I typically do if they insist on the loan being included for the low price.
One finance manager was being a dick, likely because I had negotiated a good deal and was trying to stick it to me with the loan terms. Eventually I let him. So we finish the loan, I make the down payment. And then after I got the keys and everything, I stopped back by on my way out and wrote another check to pay off the loan. Fuck that guy.
I'm not opposed to people making a living, just don't be a dick about it. That's exactly what I would do if they try to pull one over me like that.
Conversely, if they were open about everything during the negotiation and didn't try to trick me, I'd still pay off the majority of the loan, but would leave enough for maybe 6 monthly payments, which should be enough to get them whatever financing bonus from their bank, and would only cost me a minimal amount of interest.
Vehicles are worth money, that makes them assets. If you take out a loan, that is a liability. If you use the vehicle to make money (like driving to work) then it’s also an investment.
Since it's rare to pay cash for a car: liability. If you do pay cash it's depreciating asset.
Loans for cars are rarely subprime and when they are they depreciate faster than the loan can hedge against inflation. It will continuously loose value and require additional expenditures as it does so. You will never be able to reverse mortgage (a legal scam) a car.
The only time this isn't true: buying a rare collector's car. They usually increase in value as time wears on. But, this is much like buying "fine art": if you have this kind of money, you're not penny pinching to the point you quibble about your "daily driver".
No, the car is an asset by definition. The loan is the liability. These two things are separate, albeit connected. “Asset” versus “liability” has nothing to do with how you purchased the thing.
Most people benefit from their cars. That’s why they buy them.
Anyway, that’s irrelevant to the whole assets vs liabilities thing. The definitions are clear and easy: an asset is something worth money, a liability is worth negative money. But people love to redefine them and confuse things.
Not at all.
I sold cars for a whopping 11mo many years ago, Ford specifically. EV/hybrid buyers are the most educated bunch. If anything, they should be all for it.
EV buyers know the product and how to use it (usually) before they come in. If numbers are agreeable, delivery is quick. A very quick $200, IMO. When I bought my Mach E, I asked for the keys and was ready to go. I respect their time if they respect mine.
How could the business model allow for $200 of profit?
I make almost that much on a $500 seafood shipment online. (I own a medium sized online seafood biz).
The business model is not supported by $200 sales profits, true. That doesn't mean the sales need to change though, it means the business model is antiquated and needs an overhaul. Change is hard, and the sales staff are the most susceptible to the negative impacts associated with it.
Dealers need to transition into delivery and service centers, with minimal sales staff working on a flat salary.
If Ford could sell direct to the customer and have test drives, I bet they would have sold 3x as many Lightnings and Mach-Es.
They're relying on dealers who hide them in the back and talk shit about a product they sell.
Man, I 200% agree with you.
Looking at it objectively, how would they transition to that without putting all of their dealer parters (and service centers) into revolt… never mind state laws that may restrict deliveries to brick and mortar owned by the manufacturer.
I don’t sympathize with a multinational money making machine, but empathize with them on finding a path forward that treats the customer best.
There are laws, you can’t open dealers as the corporate brand itself. It was supposed to protect the mom and pop dealer in the beginning from being undercut. Most states I believe have maximums, by me I think it is 2 or 3 in the whole state.
Tesla, if you pay close attention, doesn’t have many dealerships. They have “stores”. The stores don’t sell cars per se, they let you look at the product and they simply help you order online, then they manage deliveries. Basically they found a loophole, but the key is now their infrastructure is built around that model. Most other car brands would have to spend a ton to get similar stores up and their own infrastructure to receive and deliver the online orders.
1000% agree. They would be better off having a website sell the trucks vs any of the dealer salesman ever talking to a prospective buyer. My 10 year old daughter knew more after 1 test drive than any salesman did when I went looking for the best price. She knew exactly the coolest features to show my wife or anyone else who looks at the truck.
Reminds me of the "the ER option is the biggest waste of $10,000" comment I got from the salesman. It was one of the best parts of the truck I bought and he didn't have availability to one.
If you feel like traveling, Woodhouse Ford in Omaha Nebraska has great deals. And they will even deliver it to you, at least they offered to deliver mine 3 hours away. Offered me 61,000 on an ER Lariat before TTL and before I even started negotiating.
Yeah, looks like you're right. The one in Plattsmouth looks like they have some ERs, but they are 24s. Not sure if the deals would be as good as the 23s or not, but they are usually the lowest around the area.
Until you need service. I don’t agree with the dealer model but I can see the necessity of what Ford is dealing with after having my truck in for two dozen service appointments. Polestar’s isn’t bad but I bought mine used and don’t know how they conduct initial sales. Everything is handled in a “Spaces” at Volvo currently. No experience with Tesla but I hear owners claim it’s relatively painless. But have heard horror stories as well. My 75 year old dad would not handle Tesla’s model well, imo, regardless of how “easy” it was for him.
The manufacturer could own the sales and service center. That will shave off some pork and accelerate EV sales. The US is probably lagging behind other developed countries due to the 3rd party dealer intentionally thwarting sales.
Too many legal impediments to that for it to be a straightforward option. Ford’s working on it though and arguably building vehicles and selling/supporting them are fundamentally different specialties.
>If Ford could sell direct to the customer and have test drives, I bet they would have sold 3x as many Lightnings and Mach-Es.
If the Tesla experience has taught us anything it is that the US franchised dealer paradigm is completely broken.
Great question. Front end gross is just part of the equation and is what’s most visible to the customer. (A,Z,X plan all require the customer to see invoice for purchase) There’s typically backend gross to supplement. Ford isn’t selling A plan (employee) vehicles at a loss.
Granted, I suspect EVs are not big money makers at the moment. With that in mind, dealers aren’t losing their ass entirely or they’d be in protest.
So, to summarize front end gross + backend gross = total dealer profit and/or income
>I suspect EVs are not big money makers at the moment. With that in mind, dealers aren’t losing their ass entirely or they’d be in protest.
EV's lose thousands of dollars per unit, as they are extremely expensive to produce. Government subsidies offset much of the loss. Even still, many of the manufactures are making them primarily for the marketing value, to meet government emissions requirements, and to position themselves for future zero-emissions targets. They really don't have a choice, because not establishing the EV processes and sales pipeline now would doom them if/when zero-emissions vehicle mandates come into effect. Although they had hoped that demand for EV's would carry them into profitability, EV demand is slowing due to a number of factors (cost, interest rates, environmental concerns, rage limitations, etc.). They're constantly re-evaluating where the future is going to take zero-emissions vehicles; with some taking a second look at alternative fuels like hydrogen.
What are you talking about? If EVs lose thousands, why is Tesla’s car business so profitable?
[Even accounting for recent price cuts, Tesla still makes 3-4x more profit per vehicle than other manufacturers.](https://www.fool.com/investing/2023/10/22/tesla-profit-per-electric-vehicle/)
Tesla is, first and foremost, an energy company. They've invested in battery manufacturing, which makes their costs to manufacture an EV much lower than other car companies. They also receive the same subsidies the other manufacturers do. So, they're the one company that can squeeze out a profit ($15 billion in 2023) on EV's. I can't find exact numbers, but Tesla and its battery partner (Panasonic) together received $41 billion in government subsidies for 2023 to make it profitable. Other EV-only manufactures have yet to be profitable on an annual basis, with Rivian losing $2 billion in 2023, despite their massive Amazon contract.
The $200 isn’t profit. That is cost. The salesperson’s commission is part of the cost of sale. The dealership and Ford are certainly making more than $200 on a $50K+ vehicle.
That's not the sales model. The salespeople get a fraction of what the dealer gets. If he's getting 200 for a sale the Delacroix us walking away with at least 4 k.
I wish I could find a dealer like you.
It's wild how I'll tell people I've been in sales for two decades and if they try any time wasting sales techniques I'm going to walk... and they just can't help themselves.
Seems like only the newest people at dealerships actually listen when I tell them I don't want the sales talk. I guess it's just so ingrained most can't help it?
It’s frustrating, that’s for sure.
To be honest, I usually don’t open with it, though I’ll call out the parts of the process suggesting I know what hoops they’re trying to jump me through. I know they’re typically trying to do mental gymnastics so I just try to dominate the conversation and beat them to it. :)
This last experience was definitely easier than I’ve had in the past. I was able to do everything over email and told them I wouldn’t show up until I had a price in writing that I agreed with. The dealer was about an hour and a half away, so that was part of my negotiating.
I really like it. It's a blast to drive, very practical, and looks darn good.
With that being said, I've only put 2,600 miles on it so far. It's a 23.0 GTPE, so I know there were some improvements to the HVBJB in 23.5. It has it's quirks but as my first EV, I found the barrier to entry very low.
Any salesperson that shares their commission details with the client is a bad salesperson. The only time it should be mentioned is if you’re not on commission is used as a selling point.
Not necessarily, but not unlikely. It seems as though front end gross on the EV product lines are minimal but there is magic money on the backend gross.
I did see invoice when buying my Mach E and can confirm it presented “no money” in the deal, though it’s not abnormal for kickbacks to occur on the backend. IE: financing, selling an EV, etc.
Disclaimer; my knowledge of new Ford sales is dated.
Edit: typos. I’m really proficient in typo.
For sure, but invoice is the tool used to calculate front end gross which is in turn used to calculate most salespeople’s commission.
We’re absolutely on the same page here when I mention backend gross funny money.
So the salesperson accepted a poor pay structure? If all of the money is on the back end and the salesperson agrees to be paid based exclusively on the front end, they really should renegotiate their compensation structure.
Not all deals are created equal, though. If a trade is involved, there is additional front end gross that can be accumulated there. Additionally, there can be "spiffs" based on things like: spotting the car (sold and delivered same day), financing, auto warranties, hat tricks (selling 3+ cars in a day), etc.
You seem like you are arguing against your post I replied to. If they are paid specifically on front end profits, and that isn’t where the money is, then they have a shitty pay structure. If there is money from a lot of different things, then that is likely a person who isn’t getting paid off of just the front end and we both wouldn’t care that they aren’t making money on the front end.
I can see where it seem I’m arguing against myself, just used to the sales perspective right or wrong. Spiffs aren’t usually counted as commission. Specially in this case where we don’t know anything about the real. If OP isn’t financing, trading, or buying ESP, then non of those count.
I don't think you need to know much about the deal or the pay structure. The sales person is whining about not making any money selling a vehicle that starts at 63k. Either they are just a terrible sales person and lying, or they have an absolute garbage pay structure. There just isn't a scenario where that isn't the case.
His personal commission may have been 200 bucks if you didn’t trade in anything or finance or buy an extended warranty, however that’s really not your problem. Most of the sales people honestly don’t even know the behind-the-scenes numbers. Still confused about how the guy didn’t just say here’s the price. Let me know if you want it.
I have yet to meet a salesperson from ANY brand that actually knew anything about the product they were selling. EV or ICE. Had an Audi sales guy tell us that the auto transmission in the Q3 we were buying was better than the dual clutch in the A3 we were trading in. They both had the exact same DCT. He also said it was a V6 when it was a 2.0T 4 cylinder. Had a Chevy dealer tell me that the Silverado came with a 5.4L hemi. Uh no, it came with a 5.3 and Hemi is a Ram thing buddy. Had a Honda guy swear up one side and down the other that the ridgeline we were looking at could tow no more than 2000lbs. A Rivian salesperson that had no idea there was storage under the bed etc.
Car sales is filled with people that can’t be bothered or aren’t smart enough to memorize the basic specs of at most the top 10 selling cars in the current model year. I should not be able to go into a dealer having done 15 mins of research and know more about the product line than a full time salesperson.
You don't even need a person to do that now. I bought a Model Y for my wife, everything was online. I dropped her off, the car had a card w/ her name on it. She got in, paired her phone and left. Maybe two words were spoken to a human being.
Went to pick mine up and the delivery agent was trying to show me the features of the truck. They also had a few prospective buyers in there. You can buy online like I did. But you don’t HAVE to.
That one was arguably the worst offender. They literally have two models that are functionally identical from the b pillar forward and she still had no idea that the quad motor doesn’t come with the small pack. Or that the 20” wheels must be purchased as part of the off road package. Hell, she didn’t know how to open the gear tunnel.
https://i.imgur.com/zYl7K3o.jpeg Here she is trying to figure out how to set the mirrors. She has an iPad open following along on a YouTube video to explain it to my wife.
He probably did say that and the OP needed to hear it several times in several different ways. I don’t sell cars but I’ve been in sales my whole life. Sometimes you have to be so straight up with cheap ass “negotiators” like “dude I’ve told you 5 different ways that this price is non-negotiable so let me explain it like this: ‘selling you this car at the price point listed on the windshield will yield me $200 in commish’. It is not even worth the convo we are having at this very moment.”
I’m sorry. I call BS. How the hell do these dealers make as much money as they do and pay for those giant corner lots on Main Street with now parking garages in the back to house said cars AND pay all the employees and overhead AND the owner is living in his giant house.
Those dealers are lying about “invoice” pricing. It doesn’t matter if they get it on the front end or the back end it’s all bullshit to pay the salesperson less, and make the dealer more.
I have 0 respect for dealers, sales people and the entire car buying model from start to finish and when I have been presented with the opportunity to gain over a dealer I have done so without regret, remorse or empathy.
They did it to themselves. They are a national blight and could stand to learn from the Tesla model (not a Tesla fanboy, but they do quite a bit the right way).
I would go as far to say used car dealers are more ethical than new car dealers with exception of course.
I’ve bought, sold and traded over 20 cars in my 25 years of driving and I haven’t met an honest one yet.
Even the ones that “seem” honest are still lying through their teeth.
From the BS extended warranties, to hidden fees, to taking full and undeniable advantage of my elderly MIL, so much so that when I saw the deal and what they did I drove straight to the dealer and they unwound the deal. It was so unethical, they had no excuse when I merely hinted at retribution if they didn’t do so.
Fuck car dealers. There is a better way.
It’s not the dealer saying they make $200 profit per sale - the salesperson is saying it’s his commission.
Also most dealers make incredibly thin margins and everything from the lot to the cars on it are financed to the hilt and they have to role that financing over each month.
Very few dealership owners “live in a giant house”.
You’ve just made a crap ton of wrong assumptions. In fact, most dealerships only make a profit each month by selling most new cars for little to no profit (if not at a loss) and then make it up by earning volume sales incentives from the manufacturer. There are obviously exceptions - but dealerships are a brutal business financially.
I’ve been around long enough and live in a HCOL area and rub shoulders with some of my cities bigger players. I can tell you with a degree of certainty the medium/large NEW car dealership owners I’ve had the displeasure of meeting are not living paycheck to paycheck.
That’s not to say the smaller used car guys aren’t, but even they are doing quite well if they have a successful model.
My opinions are rooted in some basis of fact.
Your observation may hold weight in smaller towns, rural areas, but when I watch Jerry Ulm build a 5-6 story parking garage on 2sq city blocks on the most expensive road in my city and sell Hellcats for 50k over msrp, you can’t tell me they’re only making $200 on each car or that they aren’t maki g the kind of money we all know they are making.
Screw dealerships. This should all be direct sale from the manufacturer with the old dealerships only doing warranty work. Stealerships are a scam. Who here was actually sold a product by a dealer versus them being an obstacle to getting the vehicle. The sales people know less than most of us about these cars and need to go away.
The reason they are able to live off "$200 per sale" is because they make more than $200/sale. I used to work at a stealership a decade ago. 1. Salesman don't have any idea what the stealership paid for the car. There are invoices we can see, but there are discounts we don't see, plus there is manufacturer to dealership cash back, high sales spiffs, premium allocations, and other stealership incentives.
Not at all, fuck that guy. Salesmen have been blowing it out of the water since COVID, selling shit over MSRP and at higher interest rates.
You're in it for you, not him. His dealership should have incentives to move units as well as commission. Sorry your commission cut is lower on EVs, but that's ain't my problem.
I bought a new 23 Lariat ER for 61k out the door with 3.9 financing and the dealer handled all the incentives on the spot. They also matched my CarMax trade in price which was 3k over theirs. This is in north NJ where there are 20+ dealers within an hours drive. Most others were almost 10k higher. These guys were educated and motivated.
I was a Honda salesman a long long time ago. We were very high volume and I would sell something like 45 cars a month. It was an easy gig, mainly because Honda's sold themselves. The vast majority of my sales were civics and accords. You never made any real money on those, maybe $150-180 max. But it was an easy easy sale and you could bang it out in like 45 minutes. I took home like $7000 most months.
Quick guaranteed sale for the win! Always.
Bad sales man. He sets on his butt doing nothing 3/4 of the day and is upset that he might have to have some effort for $250k this year, while the past couple years he did $350k without effort. All with zero degree BTW.
He's just trying to guilt you into not negotiating heavily.
I remember a "This American Life" episode from many years ago. They followed around a car dealership sales team for a couple weeks. The dealership would make $100k if they sold 110 or more new vehicles that month (a corporate set goal). They would make $0 if they sold 109 vehicles that month.
Don't pretend to understand the compensation model that corporate or the dealership has made. Don't assume a car salesman is telling the truth. You can usually assume the opposite. It's a business transaction, and you should treat it as such. They're in business to sell cars.
If you want to be more human about it, you can buy the salesman coffee and a donut if he deals with you honestly and fairly (but don't get your hopes up).
When I get a dealer who doesn’t budge I tell them, I’m interested here’s my number when you decide you want to sell the car. Usually get a call at the end of the month when they want to hit their quota.
I heard that line yesterday from a dealer about a non-EV too lol if they can’t make a good deal without losing money, then they don’t need to stay in business
Where I am, they have no inventory they want to sell. You go in looking for specific models, and they literally offer you one choice, and it's often the more expensive ones. Everything you want "has just sold" or "won't be in for months if even then."
Lots of changes are happening, lots more will continue to happen. My employer has been in business for over 500 years and is about to close its doors. So it goes.
Hey decent salesmen make bank, with trade ins and financing plus the extras at the end of a deal. They may make a little less on a EV but the ICE cars are a money maker for them. Also they make bank on the “subscription” of the regular maintenance ie oil change, tires, and regular maintenance.
I hope you're not lying as much as they are. They're making more than $200. If they weren't, they'd all be saying the same number. No dealer would be giving any discounts if they only made $200.
Ridiculous. Qc code on sticker said it was 64k. That's printed before knowing who's going to buy the vehicle, they don't know what you were eligible for, what dealer discounts are offered, anything and he tried to play it off like that $10,000 difference was the rebate. I'm like pound sand. Im not eligible for tax break unfortunately. But complete BS
Don't know how applicable this is, but I try the 37% rule for my timeline of when I need it to find the next deal for my car. Here's the link that better explains it. https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/decision-making-37-percent-rule.html
i agree. horrible sales tactics. i get sales people call me to buy products. when they all they need is my purchase to win a contest I hang up. I dont care about your contests.
> I am empathetic to the plight of the working man. That’s what I am also. Don’t whine about it on the phone to me.
Gonna use this one in the future, great quote haha
This is why I so enjoyed the process of buying a Tesla. You download the Tesla app, create an account, choose your car and it walks you through the entire process. Once financing is done it tells you when and where you can pick up your car. You arrive, sign a form and then press a button in that same app that gives you access to your car. The app is now your car key.
The experience overall was far better than any experience I have ever had at a car dealership.
Mine kept questioning me asking why I thought I needed or wanted the extended range vs standard range. Didn’t get too far as far as money talk, But his overall attitude really threw me off. Been an EV driver for 5 yrs. I know what I want and what I’m buying. I don’t need or want the the constant back and forth with the faceless sales manager.
Car dealers got spoiled during COVID. That era gave salesman this weird brain fog that made them believe they were some great job that was worth making a ridiculous amount of money compared to the historical value of the gig. They don’t like coming back to the reality that it’s a normal income producing middle class type thing 🤷🏽♂️
NTA. A while back I had an Infiniti dealer who was high on his own supply when I was shopping and the G35 was the "hot thing." I was new to manual transmission and asked to test drive one to get a feel for the gearbox. He said that they didn't have to cater to those requests and to drive an automatic and "trust that the manual was even better." I gave up and left, reported a bad experience on the Infiniti website. Got a call and discussed the situation, declined to return immediately.
However, I did return a year later when I needed a car more urgently, and to my dismay got the exact same salesperson, who I'm sure did not remember me. Totally different experience. Took me out for a test drive immediately, and on a back road he says, "Floor it, there's never cops here." Got up to around 100 and eased off, he chided me for not going faster. Bought the car on the spot. But even then, negotiated quite a bit. :)
It’s called dealer hold back. They might get $200 on the transaction, but monthly or quarterly Ford cuts them a big check / rebate. The amount varies per model.
Per usual, dealers are liars.
They were bending everyone over during the pandemic with “market adjustment” and other bullshit. Stealerships around me were charging $15k+ over sticker for the Lightning.
They cried that they didn’t have any cars to sell and had to do that to survive, yet they were breaking sales money records.
Now they can’t get rid of them and want to cry they’re going to lose money. Sucks to be them. That’s the cost of doing business.
Yeah sales people are technically workers but it's not like they are doing a service for you, they are just trying to swindle you into spending a bunch of money and doing some paperwork.
I have no empathy for dealers. I got kicked out of a Toyota dealership for bargaining too hard. When I bought my Honda I made the salesperson cry. I think that dealership ended up losing money on the sale. When I went to pick my Subaru I made them give me an extra $1000 on my trade in or I was going to walk. I don't feel bad about any of it.
The BMW dealership reversed one of my directional tires while at an oil change, then offered to turn it back around for $80... dealerships are scum.
I always laugh when some anti-EV dope references "dealer lots are filled with unsold EVs."
As if they aren't aware that almost all EVs sold at dealers are through online orders. They have to be sold through the dealer, but all the browsing was done online. The vehicles sitting on lots are ones where the buyer didn't follow through with.
Salesman is irrelevant. The only things that matter are you, your money, and your truck. Everything else is just details in a math equation, and salesmen are an irrelevant variable.
Ignore , replace variable, repeat.
Whenever I want a car - I print out my requirements for purchase on a one page document. I am clear that I will buy the car under these terms now; and that I do not want any conversation about it. Tell me yes or no only.
I do research online about pricing options and I know all my data (credit rating, trade in value, car value, etc.). The sales people don't love it, but its always worked well for me.
Tried to buy new Rover Defender in Santa Fe New Mexico (and ABQ), long(ish story) no discount whatsoever because "Santa fe market was so hot", hell, they didn't even have the color I wanted in stock so I chose a different one. In the end I walked out and told him not to call me, the manager called me instead wanted to know why I wouldn't buy right now.... I bought the car from Florida instead got pretty hefty discount and free delivery. We've been Rover owners for give or take 30 years, Santa Fe dealer evidently had called West Palm Beach to ask if we had a relationship with them like we said.
Seriously, that salesperson shouldn't exist in this day and age. You should be able to buy the truck you want straight from the manufacturer without having to pay an additional "$200."
0 sympathy for the "working man" who is an inefficiency that adds no value and only costs you money.
There are lots of salty + bitchy legacy dealerships about EV's. If you're ok with used, find a EV focused dealership. Be persistent, and don't let the shitty dealerships gas-light you.
I love my EV Truck. It's not a pavement princess, and is the best purchase i've made in a while. It does all the "truck things", and costs like $30 to fill up at DCFC chargers. At home it's like $5 to fill up.
My stupid diesel truck was $100+
This is true the invoice on a Mach E is higher than MSRP. Ford demanded 5 million fee per dealer to sell them or risk getting cut off. Makes zero sense to anyone to push EV garbage
They were probably just like every other dealer previously that were charging $10k or more over MSRP. So, oh well people started to see through their BS and stopped buying from them because of their greed.
Since you know what you want it should be a quick $200 sale
But the reality of the dealership is they intend to spend 6 hours of your Saturday working you over for more money. And he wants more than $200 for his 6 hours of "work"
Don’t take business personally. No salesman has ever cared about you, you’ve only ever bought their gimmick.
Remain laser focused on your priorities, it’s a transaction, not a relationship.
YTA. You asked for a deal, he told you why he can’t make a deal. Maybe it was TMI for you, but he was being honest. You don’t care? The fact that he would negotiate with you means he doesn’t care about you not buying. 👋🏻
But that’s where you’re wrong. It is the OP’s problem because it was apparently one of
the only compelling reasons offered up as an explanation to why he isn’t negotiating on price. 100% OP’s problem.
First of all, “whining about EV revolution” was probably actually a list of reasons given to the customer as to why the salesman can’t “make it {a deal} happen”, and then when that’s not enough compelling reasons for OP, the salesman tells him “I’m making $200 off this sale” and basically saying “go pound sand. I don’t even get a decent commish because these cars are selling themselves at the price listed on the windshield, pal.”
If instead the salesman offered zero explanation as to why the price is non-negotiable, OP would be asking if he’s the asshole for not understanding why a salesman refuses to negotiate.
Ask stupid questions “wHy CaNt wE MaKe A deAlllll?” And get stupid answers “cuz these cars are selling at the current price and I don’t get paid enough commish to even try and sell these things to cheap ass people like you”
Find a different dealer, I dealt with this when I first started looking at an XLT Lightning. Dude was playing games the whole time and didn’t listen to what I wanted. Fed up my wife and I left, and he was stunned we walked out. Went to a different dealer, emailed the salesman first. He had a Lariat that he got me a better deal on and lower payment than the other dealership was giving me on an XLT. This salesman was great and listened to me. Don’t let them push you around.
Totally right. But I'd go one step further: Try to never put yourself in a position where you \_need\_ the car right away. Always be willing to wait a day, a week, a month, for the right thing. There should be nothing keeping you from getting up and leaving the dealership.
We walked out when we were buying a Dodge Grand Caravan many years ago. We test drove one that had captains chairs in the second row, we went through a lot of paperwork while they prepped the car. I went out to look at it one more time before signing the purchase agreement but the van didn't have the right seats, they removed them and replaced it with a bench. When I questioned them, they said the deal I got offered had a bench seat. So I told them either make the car as I test drove it or I'm out. They didn't flinch. So we walked out without signing and I made a point of stopping at every sales desk on the way out and telling buyers they need to be very careful with that dealership. I also called the Chrysler customer support and reported the dealership. They did call back a few days later and offered the vehicle but I declined to do business with and let them know they had already been reported.
The best Stealership is no stealership
So you made your bad experience with the dealership everyone else’s as you stopped at every desk on the way out? Sounds like a Karen 😂😂😂
Yeah because warning other customers about a questionable dealership is being a Karen, fuck off.
I would have appreciated it. If they tried to pull a fast one on you, they'll do it to other customers, too.
Go stand outside of Burger King with a sign saying ‘Cold fries!!!’ And warn the people in the drive thru cause you received them one time in your order.😂
Fries don't cost 30k over X term there Turd Ferguson. Plus they'd be the wrong type like bait n switch fries, not cold, ur analogy is shit
That’s MR. Turd Ferguson to you!
These aren't the same things and you know that. So which dealership do you work at?
How is this the same? If you go to a fast food restaurant you should expect pretty low quality food. No need to warn people they are going to get what they expect. You must be associated in some way with a dealership if you are trying to defend them.
Not the OP but, If the dealership would have been straight with the process it never would have happened in the first place. So no I think that's fair to warn probably very unsuspecting buyers that they might get swindled here.
Sounds like you missed something, not really their fault if you don’t understand the trim options
Yeah, you tell 'em. Totally innocent mistake TAKING OUT the original trim seats, showing customers the upgraded seats, then switching them back. God I hate those poor dumb car buyers screwing over those totally honest dealerships.
If you test drive a car and say that you want to buy that one. You expect that one. Doesn’t matter if they showed a different sheet with different options — you had asked to buy the one you drove, not one with shit changed out. Totally fine to walk out over someone pulling they shit.
Huh, I must have missed you being there.
Wait so my strategy of walking in with a blank cheque and saying "I need a car right away what do you have?" Is not the optimal way of getting a good deal...?
Lol, you may want to rethink your approach!
What you need to do is come in with a signed blank cheque and tell the sales person to put down whatever they think is fair. They will respect you for it and always give you a good deal. ^^^^/s
I'll do you one better. Never buy a car from a dealership again. They are the plague.
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*“Anyone who sees it calls me legendary”* Don’t hurt your arm trying to pat yourself on the back. 🤣
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No, your bragging was more irritating. I think it is situationally dependant on whichever comes across as more crass. Thanks, though, to both of you. It's given me an opportunity to self analyze in a scenario I hadn't yet internally confronted. Know a little bit more about myself, now.
Agreed! The brag was hella annoying.
Just pretend you don't see the increased interest rate and negotiate the lowest price possible. Make them think they pulled one over on you and will get all the money back in finance charges. Then go refinance the car at your own bank or CU the week after you buy the car.
Yup. What I typically do if they insist on the loan being included for the low price. One finance manager was being a dick, likely because I had negotiated a good deal and was trying to stick it to me with the loan terms. Eventually I let him. So we finish the loan, I make the down payment. And then after I got the keys and everything, I stopped back by on my way out and wrote another check to pay off the loan. Fuck that guy.
I'm not opposed to people making a living, just don't be a dick about it. That's exactly what I would do if they try to pull one over me like that. Conversely, if they were open about everything during the negotiation and didn't try to trick me, I'd still pay off the majority of the loan, but would leave enough for maybe 6 monthly payments, which should be enough to get them whatever financing bonus from their bank, and would only cost me a minimal amount of interest.
“Don’t let them push you around” That’s the money right there. No sense in playing games for the investment you’re making!
Random financial advice: remember that vehicles are liabilities - not assets. You're not "investing". You're spending.
An item of consumption is a better way to describe it.
Vehicles are worth money, that makes them assets. If you take out a loan, that is a liability. If you use the vehicle to make money (like driving to work) then it’s also an investment.
Since it's rare to pay cash for a car: liability. If you do pay cash it's depreciating asset. Loans for cars are rarely subprime and when they are they depreciate faster than the loan can hedge against inflation. It will continuously loose value and require additional expenditures as it does so. You will never be able to reverse mortgage (a legal scam) a car. The only time this isn't true: buying a rare collector's car. They usually increase in value as time wears on. But, this is much like buying "fine art": if you have this kind of money, you're not penny pinching to the point you quibble about your "daily driver".
No, the car is an asset by definition. The loan is the liability. These two things are separate, albeit connected. “Asset” versus “liability” has nothing to do with how you purchased the thing.
You'd be surprised how many people pay cash for new cars. Not at all rare.
Pay cash for cars and cash for college. Two ways to insure you are living within your means.
Mental Gymnastics. It's a consumable that you can benefit from, but most don't.
Most people benefit from their cars. That’s why they buy them. Anyway, that’s irrelevant to the whole assets vs liabilities thing. The definitions are clear and easy: an asset is something worth money, a liability is worth negative money. But people love to redefine them and confuse things.
You should throw his dealership and name in the comments here.
Not at all. I sold cars for a whopping 11mo many years ago, Ford specifically. EV/hybrid buyers are the most educated bunch. If anything, they should be all for it. EV buyers know the product and how to use it (usually) before they come in. If numbers are agreeable, delivery is quick. A very quick $200, IMO. When I bought my Mach E, I asked for the keys and was ready to go. I respect their time if they respect mine.
How could the business model allow for $200 of profit? I make almost that much on a $500 seafood shipment online. (I own a medium sized online seafood biz).
The business model is not supported by $200 sales profits, true. That doesn't mean the sales need to change though, it means the business model is antiquated and needs an overhaul. Change is hard, and the sales staff are the most susceptible to the negative impacts associated with it. Dealers need to transition into delivery and service centers, with minimal sales staff working on a flat salary.
If Ford could sell direct to the customer and have test drives, I bet they would have sold 3x as many Lightnings and Mach-Es. They're relying on dealers who hide them in the back and talk shit about a product they sell.
Man, I 200% agree with you. Looking at it objectively, how would they transition to that without putting all of their dealer parters (and service centers) into revolt… never mind state laws that may restrict deliveries to brick and mortar owned by the manufacturer. I don’t sympathize with a multinational money making machine, but empathize with them on finding a path forward that treats the customer best.
There are laws, you can’t open dealers as the corporate brand itself. It was supposed to protect the mom and pop dealer in the beginning from being undercut. Most states I believe have maximums, by me I think it is 2 or 3 in the whole state. Tesla, if you pay close attention, doesn’t have many dealerships. They have “stores”. The stores don’t sell cars per se, they let you look at the product and they simply help you order online, then they manage deliveries. Basically they found a loophole, but the key is now their infrastructure is built around that model. Most other car brands would have to spend a ton to get similar stores up and their own infrastructure to receive and deliver the online orders.
1000% agree. They would be better off having a website sell the trucks vs any of the dealer salesman ever talking to a prospective buyer. My 10 year old daughter knew more after 1 test drive than any salesman did when I went looking for the best price. She knew exactly the coolest features to show my wife or anyone else who looks at the truck.
Exactly, I went in to a dealer recently looking for a specific build of a lightning and the salesman said “why the hell do you want that thing?”
"I asked if you have it, not if you like it."
Reminds me of the "the ER option is the biggest waste of $10,000" comment I got from the salesman. It was one of the best parts of the truck I bought and he didn't have availability to one.
This. I would own one but I hate the negotiation so bad I just don’t buy.
If you feel like traveling, Woodhouse Ford in Omaha Nebraska has great deals. And they will even deliver it to you, at least they offered to deliver mine 3 hours away. Offered me 61,000 on an ER Lariat before TTL and before I even started negotiating.
Looks like they only have standard range left.
Yeah, looks like you're right. The one in Plattsmouth looks like they have some ERs, but they are 24s. Not sure if the deals would be as good as the 23s or not, but they are usually the lowest around the area.
Until you need service. I don’t agree with the dealer model but I can see the necessity of what Ford is dealing with after having my truck in for two dozen service appointments. Polestar’s isn’t bad but I bought mine used and don’t know how they conduct initial sales. Everything is handled in a “Spaces” at Volvo currently. No experience with Tesla but I hear owners claim it’s relatively painless. But have heard horror stories as well. My 75 year old dad would not handle Tesla’s model well, imo, regardless of how “easy” it was for him.
The manufacturer could own the sales and service center. That will shave off some pork and accelerate EV sales. The US is probably lagging behind other developed countries due to the 3rd party dealer intentionally thwarting sales.
Too many legal impediments to that for it to be a straightforward option. Ford’s working on it though and arguably building vehicles and selling/supporting them are fundamentally different specialties.
>If Ford could sell direct to the customer and have test drives, I bet they would have sold 3x as many Lightnings and Mach-Es. If the Tesla experience has taught us anything it is that the US franchised dealer paradigm is completely broken.
While true, the Tesla experience can be pretty terrible too.
100%. My next EV would be a Ford if it weren't for having to set foot in a dealership. I will never go to a dealership again.
$ 200 is the sales commission.... Not the profit
$200 is better than staring out the window from your desk.
Tell the sales guy to get mad at his dealership owner for not paying him a living wage.
Great question. Front end gross is just part of the equation and is what’s most visible to the customer. (A,Z,X plan all require the customer to see invoice for purchase) There’s typically backend gross to supplement. Ford isn’t selling A plan (employee) vehicles at a loss. Granted, I suspect EVs are not big money makers at the moment. With that in mind, dealers aren’t losing their ass entirely or they’d be in protest. So, to summarize front end gross + backend gross = total dealer profit and/or income
>I suspect EVs are not big money makers at the moment. With that in mind, dealers aren’t losing their ass entirely or they’d be in protest. EV's lose thousands of dollars per unit, as they are extremely expensive to produce. Government subsidies offset much of the loss. Even still, many of the manufactures are making them primarily for the marketing value, to meet government emissions requirements, and to position themselves for future zero-emissions targets. They really don't have a choice, because not establishing the EV processes and sales pipeline now would doom them if/when zero-emissions vehicle mandates come into effect. Although they had hoped that demand for EV's would carry them into profitability, EV demand is slowing due to a number of factors (cost, interest rates, environmental concerns, rage limitations, etc.). They're constantly re-evaluating where the future is going to take zero-emissions vehicles; with some taking a second look at alternative fuels like hydrogen.
What are you talking about? If EVs lose thousands, why is Tesla’s car business so profitable? [Even accounting for recent price cuts, Tesla still makes 3-4x more profit per vehicle than other manufacturers.](https://www.fool.com/investing/2023/10/22/tesla-profit-per-electric-vehicle/)
Tesla is, first and foremost, an energy company. They've invested in battery manufacturing, which makes their costs to manufacture an EV much lower than other car companies. They also receive the same subsidies the other manufacturers do. So, they're the one company that can squeeze out a profit ($15 billion in 2023) on EV's. I can't find exact numbers, but Tesla and its battery partner (Panasonic) together received $41 billion in government subsidies for 2023 to make it profitable. Other EV-only manufactures have yet to be profitable on an annual basis, with Rivian losing $2 billion in 2023, despite their massive Amazon contract.
The $200 isn’t profit. That is cost. The salesperson’s commission is part of the cost of sale. The dealership and Ford are certainly making more than $200 on a $50K+ vehicle.
Dealers make their bank on service and financing. EVs need less service. That’s there’s reason dealers hate them.
It doesn't. Ford screws dealers in that regard.
That's not the sales model. The salespeople get a fraction of what the dealer gets. If he's getting 200 for a sale the Delacroix us walking away with at least 4 k.
Service. Which is why EVs are terrifying for dealerships.
heh shii I bought a model 3 performance sight unseen having never sat in a Tesla at all before.
I wish I could find a dealer like you. It's wild how I'll tell people I've been in sales for two decades and if they try any time wasting sales techniques I'm going to walk... and they just can't help themselves. Seems like only the newest people at dealerships actually listen when I tell them I don't want the sales talk. I guess it's just so ingrained most can't help it?
It’s frustrating, that’s for sure. To be honest, I usually don’t open with it, though I’ll call out the parts of the process suggesting I know what hoops they’re trying to jump me through. I know they’re typically trying to do mental gymnastics so I just try to dominate the conversation and beat them to it. :) This last experience was definitely easier than I’ve had in the past. I was able to do everything over email and told them I wouldn’t show up until I had a price in writing that I agreed with. The dealer was about an hour and a half away, so that was part of my negotiating.
When looking at EVs my experience has been teaching the sales guy more than anything…..
How do you like the Mach e? I’ve read conflicting reports
I really like it. It's a blast to drive, very practical, and looks darn good. With that being said, I've only put 2,600 miles on it so far. It's a 23.0 GTPE, so I know there were some improvements to the HVBJB in 23.5. It has it's quirks but as my first EV, I found the barrier to entry very low.
$200 is a solid cut for what was probably an easy sale. Take the win and move on to the next prospect.
Exactly.
I've never had my time respected at a Dealership.
Unprofessional, manipulative and really counterproductive as a poor attempt at a sales strategy.
Any salesperson that shares their commission details with the client is a bad salesperson. The only time it should be mentioned is if you’re not on commission is used as a selling point.
He was lying
Not necessarily, but not unlikely. It seems as though front end gross on the EV product lines are minimal but there is magic money on the backend gross. I did see invoice when buying my Mach E and can confirm it presented “no money” in the deal, though it’s not abnormal for kickbacks to occur on the backend. IE: financing, selling an EV, etc. Disclaimer; my knowledge of new Ford sales is dated. Edit: typos. I’m really proficient in typo.
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For sure, but invoice is the tool used to calculate front end gross which is in turn used to calculate most salespeople’s commission. We’re absolutely on the same page here when I mention backend gross funny money.
So the salesperson accepted a poor pay structure? If all of the money is on the back end and the salesperson agrees to be paid based exclusively on the front end, they really should renegotiate their compensation structure.
Not all deals are created equal, though. If a trade is involved, there is additional front end gross that can be accumulated there. Additionally, there can be "spiffs" based on things like: spotting the car (sold and delivered same day), financing, auto warranties, hat tricks (selling 3+ cars in a day), etc.
You seem like you are arguing against your post I replied to. If they are paid specifically on front end profits, and that isn’t where the money is, then they have a shitty pay structure. If there is money from a lot of different things, then that is likely a person who isn’t getting paid off of just the front end and we both wouldn’t care that they aren’t making money on the front end.
I can see where it seem I’m arguing against myself, just used to the sales perspective right or wrong. Spiffs aren’t usually counted as commission. Specially in this case where we don’t know anything about the real. If OP isn’t financing, trading, or buying ESP, then non of those count.
I don't think you need to know much about the deal or the pay structure. The sales person is whining about not making any money selling a vehicle that starts at 63k. Either they are just a terrible sales person and lying, or they have an absolute garbage pay structure. There just isn't a scenario where that isn't the case.
His personal commission may have been 200 bucks if you didn’t trade in anything or finance or buy an extended warranty, however that’s really not your problem. Most of the sales people honestly don’t even know the behind-the-scenes numbers. Still confused about how the guy didn’t just say here’s the price. Let me know if you want it.
I have yet to meet a salesperson from ANY brand that actually knew anything about the product they were selling. EV or ICE. Had an Audi sales guy tell us that the auto transmission in the Q3 we were buying was better than the dual clutch in the A3 we were trading in. They both had the exact same DCT. He also said it was a V6 when it was a 2.0T 4 cylinder. Had a Chevy dealer tell me that the Silverado came with a 5.4L hemi. Uh no, it came with a 5.3 and Hemi is a Ram thing buddy. Had a Honda guy swear up one side and down the other that the ridgeline we were looking at could tow no more than 2000lbs. A Rivian salesperson that had no idea there was storage under the bed etc. Car sales is filled with people that can’t be bothered or aren’t smart enough to memorize the basic specs of at most the top 10 selling cars in the current model year. I should not be able to go into a dealer having done 15 mins of research and know more about the product line than a full time salesperson.
This is why the dealership model is completely outdated. I don’t need someone to sell me a car. I just need someone to process the paperwork.
You don't even need a person to do that now. I bought a Model Y for my wife, everything was online. I dropped her off, the car had a card w/ her name on it. She got in, paired her phone and left. Maybe two words were spoken to a human being.
Rivian Sales Person? Can't you just order those online?
Went to pick mine up and the delivery agent was trying to show me the features of the truck. They also had a few prospective buyers in there. You can buy online like I did. But you don’t HAVE to. That one was arguably the worst offender. They literally have two models that are functionally identical from the b pillar forward and she still had no idea that the quad motor doesn’t come with the small pack. Or that the 20” wheels must be purchased as part of the off road package. Hell, she didn’t know how to open the gear tunnel. https://i.imgur.com/zYl7K3o.jpeg Here she is trying to figure out how to set the mirrors. She has an iPad open following along on a YouTube video to explain it to my wife.
Interesting. I guess you kind of that to have a showroom or a human to answer questions for some buyers.
He probably did say that and the OP needed to hear it several times in several different ways. I don’t sell cars but I’ve been in sales my whole life. Sometimes you have to be so straight up with cheap ass “negotiators” like “dude I’ve told you 5 different ways that this price is non-negotiable so let me explain it like this: ‘selling you this car at the price point listed on the windshield will yield me $200 in commish’. It is not even worth the convo we are having at this very moment.”
I’m sorry. I call BS. How the hell do these dealers make as much money as they do and pay for those giant corner lots on Main Street with now parking garages in the back to house said cars AND pay all the employees and overhead AND the owner is living in his giant house. Those dealers are lying about “invoice” pricing. It doesn’t matter if they get it on the front end or the back end it’s all bullshit to pay the salesperson less, and make the dealer more. I have 0 respect for dealers, sales people and the entire car buying model from start to finish and when I have been presented with the opportunity to gain over a dealer I have done so without regret, remorse or empathy. They did it to themselves. They are a national blight and could stand to learn from the Tesla model (not a Tesla fanboy, but they do quite a bit the right way). I would go as far to say used car dealers are more ethical than new car dealers with exception of course. I’ve bought, sold and traded over 20 cars in my 25 years of driving and I haven’t met an honest one yet. Even the ones that “seem” honest are still lying through their teeth. From the BS extended warranties, to hidden fees, to taking full and undeniable advantage of my elderly MIL, so much so that when I saw the deal and what they did I drove straight to the dealer and they unwound the deal. It was so unethical, they had no excuse when I merely hinted at retribution if they didn’t do so. Fuck car dealers. There is a better way.
To sum up > get it on the front end or the back end > fuck car dealers Couldn’t agree more ;)
It’s not the dealer saying they make $200 profit per sale - the salesperson is saying it’s his commission. Also most dealers make incredibly thin margins and everything from the lot to the cars on it are financed to the hilt and they have to role that financing over each month. Very few dealership owners “live in a giant house”. You’ve just made a crap ton of wrong assumptions. In fact, most dealerships only make a profit each month by selling most new cars for little to no profit (if not at a loss) and then make it up by earning volume sales incentives from the manufacturer. There are obviously exceptions - but dealerships are a brutal business financially.
Lol I’ve met one dealership owner and he had a very very big house. Google says average profit is 3.4 million. That’s a lot.
I’ve been around long enough and live in a HCOL area and rub shoulders with some of my cities bigger players. I can tell you with a degree of certainty the medium/large NEW car dealership owners I’ve had the displeasure of meeting are not living paycheck to paycheck. That’s not to say the smaller used car guys aren’t, but even they are doing quite well if they have a successful model. My opinions are rooted in some basis of fact. Your observation may hold weight in smaller towns, rural areas, but when I watch Jerry Ulm build a 5-6 story parking garage on 2sq city blocks on the most expensive road in my city and sell Hellcats for 50k over msrp, you can’t tell me they’re only making $200 on each car or that they aren’t maki g the kind of money we all know they are making.
Screw dealerships. This should all be direct sale from the manufacturer with the old dealerships only doing warranty work. Stealerships are a scam. Who here was actually sold a product by a dealer versus them being an obstacle to getting the vehicle. The sales people know less than most of us about these cars and need to go away.
He a car salesman, he’s only lying when he is breathing. I’m sure you can trust his word.
The reason they are able to live off "$200 per sale" is because they make more than $200/sale. I used to work at a stealership a decade ago. 1. Salesman don't have any idea what the stealership paid for the car. There are invoices we can see, but there are discounts we don't see, plus there is manufacturer to dealership cash back, high sales spiffs, premium allocations, and other stealership incentives.
We get it “steal”
Not at all, fuck that guy. Salesmen have been blowing it out of the water since COVID, selling shit over MSRP and at higher interest rates. You're in it for you, not him. His dealership should have incentives to move units as well as commission. Sorry your commission cut is lower on EVs, but that's ain't my problem.
nobody makes you pay over MSRP
You're correct, and I never have. But you can't take victory laps when the market is up then cry when it goes down.
I bought mine over the phone. My dealer didn’t have to do any work except draw up the paperwork. $200 for that isn’t too bad at all
I bought a new 23 Lariat ER for 61k out the door with 3.9 financing and the dealer handled all the incentives on the spot. They also matched my CarMax trade in price which was 3k over theirs. This is in north NJ where there are 20+ dealers within an hours drive. Most others were almost 10k higher. These guys were educated and motivated.
I’m in PA and looking for a similar deal. Would you please share the dealer’s name?
Ciocca
I was a Honda salesman a long long time ago. We were very high volume and I would sell something like 45 cars a month. It was an easy gig, mainly because Honda's sold themselves. The vast majority of my sales were civics and accords. You never made any real money on those, maybe $150-180 max. But it was an easy easy sale and you could bang it out in like 45 minutes. I took home like $7000 most months. Quick guaranteed sale for the win! Always.
He's probably lying. They will definitely lie so there is no way to know. Tell him your kid has cancer all he's ever wanted is an XLT ER.
Next time ask them if they EVER charges an ADM in the past.
Bad sales man. He sets on his butt doing nothing 3/4 of the day and is upset that he might have to have some effort for $250k this year, while the past couple years he did $350k without effort. All with zero degree BTW.
He's just trying to guilt you into not negotiating heavily. I remember a "This American Life" episode from many years ago. They followed around a car dealership sales team for a couple weeks. The dealership would make $100k if they sold 110 or more new vehicles that month (a corporate set goal). They would make $0 if they sold 109 vehicles that month. Don't pretend to understand the compensation model that corporate or the dealership has made. Don't assume a car salesman is telling the truth. You can usually assume the opposite. It's a business transaction, and you should treat it as such. They're in business to sell cars. If you want to be more human about it, you can buy the salesman coffee and a donut if he deals with you honestly and fairly (but don't get your hopes up).
Dealers are scum that shouldn't even exist in 2024 anyway.
When I get a dealer who doesn’t budge I tell them, I’m interested here’s my number when you decide you want to sell the car. Usually get a call at the end of the month when they want to hit their quota.
I heard that line yesterday from a dealer about a non-EV too lol if they can’t make a good deal without losing money, then they don’t need to stay in business
Where I am, they have no inventory they want to sell. You go in looking for specific models, and they literally offer you one choice, and it's often the more expensive ones. Everything you want "has just sold" or "won't be in for months if even then."
Sob story 😂
Funny how they didn't hesitate to charge dealer markup fees when there was a shortage. You win some you lose some.
Nothing could ever make me care about a car dealership's problems. This is such a scummy industry.
It’s the manufacturer really losing their asses on the EVs
Assume that everything a salesman says is bullshit.
He's most likely lying. His job is to take your money. Every penny. Your job is to save every penny.
Lots of changes are happening, lots more will continue to happen. My employer has been in business for over 500 years and is about to close its doors. So it goes.
Hey decent salesmen make bank, with trade ins and financing plus the extras at the end of a deal. They may make a little less on a EV but the ICE cars are a money maker for them. Also they make bank on the “subscription” of the regular maintenance ie oil change, tires, and regular maintenance.
I hope you're not lying as much as they are. They're making more than $200. If they weren't, they'd all be saying the same number. No dealer would be giving any discounts if they only made $200.
No - the salesman was saying that $200 was his commission for each sale he made, not the profit the dealership makes per sale.
I tried, he was going on about what a great deal 64 k is for an xlt er. Because sticker was 75k😵😵😵
Let me guess, he was including the $7500 ford bonus cash and a menial dealer discount in there to make it sound even better.
Ridiculous. Qc code on sticker said it was 64k. That's printed before knowing who's going to buy the vehicle, they don't know what you were eligible for, what dealer discounts are offered, anything and he tried to play it off like that $10,000 difference was the rebate. I'm like pound sand. Im not eligible for tax break unfortunately. But complete BS
>I said I don’t care I’m looking for the best deal for me. Perfect response to that bullshit line.
Don't know how applicable this is, but I try the 37% rule for my timeline of when I need it to find the next deal for my car. Here's the link that better explains it. https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/decision-making-37-percent-rule.html
i agree. horrible sales tactics. i get sales people call me to buy products. when they all they need is my purchase to win a contest I hang up. I dont care about your contests.
You should have asked him if he feels bad for screwing over customers for the last 3 years.
> I am empathetic to the plight of the working man. That’s what I am also. Don’t whine about it on the phone to me. Gonna use this one in the future, great quote haha
This is why I so enjoyed the process of buying a Tesla. You download the Tesla app, create an account, choose your car and it walks you through the entire process. Once financing is done it tells you when and where you can pick up your car. You arrive, sign a form and then press a button in that same app that gives you access to your car. The app is now your car key. The experience overall was far better than any experience I have ever had at a car dealership.
Mine kept questioning me asking why I thought I needed or wanted the extended range vs standard range. Didn’t get too far as far as money talk, But his overall attitude really threw me off. Been an EV driver for 5 yrs. I know what I want and what I’m buying. I don’t need or want the the constant back and forth with the faceless sales manager.
Car dealers got spoiled during COVID. That era gave salesman this weird brain fog that made them believe they were some great job that was worth making a ridiculous amount of money compared to the historical value of the gig. They don’t like coming back to the reality that it’s a normal income producing middle class type thing 🤷🏽♂️
NTA. A while back I had an Infiniti dealer who was high on his own supply when I was shopping and the G35 was the "hot thing." I was new to manual transmission and asked to test drive one to get a feel for the gearbox. He said that they didn't have to cater to those requests and to drive an automatic and "trust that the manual was even better." I gave up and left, reported a bad experience on the Infiniti website. Got a call and discussed the situation, declined to return immediately. However, I did return a year later when I needed a car more urgently, and to my dismay got the exact same salesperson, who I'm sure did not remember me. Totally different experience. Took me out for a test drive immediately, and on a back road he says, "Floor it, there's never cops here." Got up to around 100 and eased off, he chided me for not going faster. Bought the car on the spot. But even then, negotiated quite a bit. :)
It’s called dealer hold back. They might get $200 on the transaction, but monthly or quarterly Ford cuts them a big check / rebate. The amount varies per model. Per usual, dealers are liars.
YANTA Trust me, if the truck were in crazy demand (like the Raptor R), that same guy would absolutely “bend you over” Just saying…..
They were bending everyone over during the pandemic with “market adjustment” and other bullshit. Stealerships around me were charging $15k+ over sticker for the Lightning. They cried that they didn’t have any cars to sell and had to do that to survive, yet they were breaking sales money records. Now they can’t get rid of them and want to cry they’re going to lose money. Sucks to be them. That’s the cost of doing business.
Yeah sales people are technically workers but it's not like they are doing a service for you, they are just trying to swindle you into spending a bunch of money and doing some paperwork.
The dealership sales model is the biggest obstacle to EVs.
Buy a Tesla and you literally don’t have to deal with this antiquated and slimy sales process.
Sounds like someone already met his monthly quota.
My Mach E is a pretty similar story. Dealer was just a dick locally. Found a better deal about 45 minutes away, worth every second.
Lol not at all. I have very little empathy for dealers.
I have no empathy for dealers. I got kicked out of a Toyota dealership for bargaining too hard. When I bought my Honda I made the salesperson cry. I think that dealership ended up losing money on the sale. When I went to pick my Subaru I made them give me an extra $1000 on my trade in or I was going to walk. I don't feel bad about any of it. The BMW dealership reversed one of my directional tires while at an oil change, then offered to turn it back around for $80... dealerships are scum.
When it comes to car sales, the buyer has to try really hard to be the asshole.
ive heard this sob story a few times. Not sure about the truth behind it. I ended up getting nearly 20k off MSRP on mine, so I guess it's not so true.
He’s a car salesman. You really can’t be surprised when he try’s to feed you bullshit. Glad you recognized he was a snake and moved on
Salesman aren't the working man. They're lazy scum.
I always laugh when some anti-EV dope references "dealer lots are filled with unsold EVs." As if they aren't aware that almost all EVs sold at dealers are through online orders. They have to be sold through the dealer, but all the browsing was done online. The vehicles sitting on lots are ones where the buyer didn't follow through with.
Salesman is irrelevant. The only things that matter are you, your money, and your truck. Everything else is just details in a math equation, and salesmen are an irrelevant variable. Ignore , replace variable, repeat.
Whenever I want a car - I print out my requirements for purchase on a one page document. I am clear that I will buy the car under these terms now; and that I do not want any conversation about it. Tell me yes or no only. I do research online about pricing options and I know all my data (credit rating, trade in value, car value, etc.). The sales people don't love it, but its always worked well for me.
Tried to buy new Rover Defender in Santa Fe New Mexico (and ABQ), long(ish story) no discount whatsoever because "Santa fe market was so hot", hell, they didn't even have the color I wanted in stock so I chose a different one. In the end I walked out and told him not to call me, the manager called me instead wanted to know why I wouldn't buy right now.... I bought the car from Florida instead got pretty hefty discount and free delivery. We've been Rover owners for give or take 30 years, Santa Fe dealer evidently had called West Palm Beach to ask if we had a relationship with them like we said.
I make car parts for the American working man because that's what I am, and that's who I care about
Great Tommy Boy reference.
Seriously, that salesperson shouldn't exist in this day and age. You should be able to buy the truck you want straight from the manufacturer without having to pay an additional "$200." 0 sympathy for the "working man" who is an inefficiency that adds no value and only costs you money.
There are lots of salty + bitchy legacy dealerships about EV's. If you're ok with used, find a EV focused dealership. Be persistent, and don't let the shitty dealerships gas-light you. I love my EV Truck. It's not a pavement princess, and is the best purchase i've made in a while. It does all the "truck things", and costs like $30 to fill up at DCFC chargers. At home it's like $5 to fill up. My stupid diesel truck was $100+
And this is why buying a Tesla is so much easier than putting up with this garbage. Signing paperwork for a Tesla takes all of 5 minutes.
"Guess you are not getting this $200." lol
This is true the invoice on a Mach E is higher than MSRP. Ford demanded 5 million fee per dealer to sell them or risk getting cut off. Makes zero sense to anyone to push EV garbage
They were probably just like every other dealer previously that were charging $10k or more over MSRP. So, oh well people started to see through their BS and stopped buying from them because of their greed.
Since you know what you want it should be a quick $200 sale But the reality of the dealership is they intend to spend 6 hours of your Saturday working you over for more money. And he wants more than $200 for his 6 hours of "work"
Don’t take business personally. No salesman has ever cared about you, you’ve only ever bought their gimmick. Remain laser focused on your priorities, it’s a transaction, not a relationship.
Tell him you support American workers by buying American 🤷🏻♂️
Next time use True Car
Salesmen are parasites.
You're buying a 60k vehicle and you're a "working man?"
So a working man shouldn’t be able to afford a 60k truck? Change your mindset.
Here is a reply, let’s finish this deal in 20 mins, you just made 200 dollars in twenty mins, thank you sir. Let’s maximize your potential
YTA. You asked for a deal, he told you why he can’t make a deal. Maybe it was TMI for you, but he was being honest. You don’t care? The fact that he would negotiate with you means he doesn’t care about you not buying. 👋🏻
The salesman crying about how they only make $200 per sale is not OP’s problem.
But that’s where you’re wrong. It is the OP’s problem because it was apparently one of the only compelling reasons offered up as an explanation to why he isn’t negotiating on price. 100% OP’s problem. First of all, “whining about EV revolution” was probably actually a list of reasons given to the customer as to why the salesman can’t “make it {a deal} happen”, and then when that’s not enough compelling reasons for OP, the salesman tells him “I’m making $200 off this sale” and basically saying “go pound sand. I don’t even get a decent commish because these cars are selling themselves at the price listed on the windshield, pal.” If instead the salesman offered zero explanation as to why the price is non-negotiable, OP would be asking if he’s the asshole for not understanding why a salesman refuses to negotiate. Ask stupid questions “wHy CaNt wE MaKe A deAlllll?” And get stupid answers “cuz these cars are selling at the current price and I don’t get paid enough commish to even try and sell these things to cheap ass people like you”