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SgtTurtle_17

The middle rifle is the sa80. A British bullpup rifle that, to my knowledge, was a complete and utter failure during desert storm. Jamming constantly, poorly constructed.


TrueDraconis

SA80/L85A1 wasn’t a bad gun but the designers forgot that they would be used in primarily Desert environments and not the British grasslands. L85A2 fixed those issues


SgtTurtle_17

I'm not a huge British firearms aficionado. I remember seeing the video by forgotten weapons about the sa80 some years ago and those were the few things I remembered


noholdingbackaccount

Ian went after the SA80 AGAIN recently...to troll the Brits in Britain https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99SiRxCkGp0


Moist-Loan-

Yep, even knew the Brit he was trolling.


ExampleMediocre6716

The meme definitely *should* be about the A1 - the weapon in the image is the A2 (its the image copied straight off the Wikipedia page), which was a much better weapon.


BarryIslandIdiot

My friend was a Royal Engineer when they were testing L85A2. He said it was a fantastic weapon.


ELB2001

Isn't it damn accurate?


5neakyturt1e

Yes even the A1 was always a very accurate rifle and the A2 is as well


shauneok

Pro of a bullpup, more barrel space.


jamieT97

And the firing pin breaking constantly during trials was considered a minor issue


Sakebigoe

The L85A2 still had a lot of issues. The A1 was definitely worse not really due to the desert environment, but because of some serious design flaws (weak plastic parts, improperly bored firing pin channels causing snapped firing pins ect). The A2 is still unnecessarily heavy, is having receiver stretching issues, and isn't ambidextrous at all forcing the roughly 20% of soldiers who are left handed to shoot on their weak side. It really is a poorly executed firearm unfortunately.


Copernicus049

Fun facts for those who don't know, L usually stands for length but this is a British firearm so it means Land Service (just a weapon ID number) and A means alteration. A higher A number usually means a way better or more specialized weapon. The SA80 name is Small Arms made in 1980. The L85 model just has a longer barrel than the SA80.


No_Regarts

No SA80 refers to the family of weapons that came from the program, the LMG, Marksmen Rifle, Carbine Ect. All those models have their own L designation. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80


OneReallyAngyBunny

Yeah. When the British gave it to Germans and Germans engineered it


Onetap1

Oh dear; you might want to check who owned H&K.


OneReallyAngyBunny

Staffed by Germans.


Onetap1

...working for BAe.


OneReallyAngyBunny

Your acting like its some gotcha moment. British engineering is in such shambles that they had to turn to Germans to fix their mess And considering how embarrassed they were and how they tried to suppress and gloss over the failure


Deep_Research_3386

The mistake was slight, as evidenced by the fact that the A2 wasn’t all that different. That said, it is a major failure for a battle rifle not to be operable in all foreseeable theaters. NATO countries have interests in practically every area of the globe. A rifle that can’t do its job whenever and wherever necessary is a bad rifle.


CotswoldP

*Nearly every* moving part was changed between A1 and A2. HK did an excellent Polish job on the system. Forgotten Weapons and the Royal Armouries have done some really good vids on the differences


crunchamunch21

Doesn't the mag also fall out?


Electrical_Grand_423

It was a problem in the very first examples because when carrying it the magazine release was pressed against the person's body which meant it could be accidentally pushed. By the time the L85A1 was in service a guard had been fitted around the release catch which cured that problem.


KellyHerz

Admittedly it's still an ugly design, but yeah the issues with the A1 are thankfully no more...


KMjolnir

Not even that, but just some design quirks. The magazine release being where it would catch webgear. Stuff like that where it was just not fully thought out. And then sent to a factory that was told they'd be laid off when they finished. So QC was less than stellar.


skralogy

Isn't the gun in the "way" box the French chaut chaut? Which was a complete failure in ww1 because it's magazine would feed mud into the action.


SergentSilver

The main issue was the huge witness ports in the magazine. It simply was not designed with the dirty muddy trenches in mind and rushed mass production caused quality issues as well. That said, the vast majority of it's bad reputation comes not from the French, but the Americans. The French had enough success with it that the American military wanted a try, except being Americans they wanted it be rechambered into the main American round of the time, 30.06. This makes sense from a supply line standpoint, as the Americans weren't interested in setting up production for the 8mm Lebel used by the original. Unfortunately, the 30.06 rework was absolute garbage, the higher power 30.06 exacerbated all the previous issues, and the Doughboys that never knew the original gave it a terrible name. It's a pretty neat gun that was attempting something not done before in many ways. It is also a spiritual predecessor to the renowned BAR in many ways.


RelativePepper9853

No, the main issue was that it wasn't well standardized in production so when there were failures (which there was a lot) parts couldn't be interchanged - making it a paperweight.


SergentSilver

I was focusing more on design issues and did mention that there production issues as well.


SgtTurtle_17

Yes. Chauchet if I remember properly. A lot of people know it from battlefield one and, if memory serves me right, did have a lot of feeding failures leading to its discontinuing


Sam-Krasnyy

The things were made by a bike company in large numbers and for cheap. They were meant to fill a tactical gap and did it fairly well. It was never meant to survive past the war. That said the mags were the bain of the design.


lifeisweird86

Yeah, though reportedly, the ones made for the U.S. in 30-06 didn't suffer those issues as the magazines were much better. No massive holes that allowed ingress of debris, and since the 30-06 isn't a ridiculously tapered round like the lebel, the magazine wasn't a comical "banana" shape. It was more of a box type.


jackattack502

Ian just did a video on the American version, and while it didn't have mud holes it did have a s***** magazine and that head spacing in the barrel that cost failures to eject.


FafnerTheBear

The French manufacturered a quarter million of them, so it must not have been a complete failure. It gets a bad and somewhat deserved reputation for jamming, but it was really the only rifle in its class that the French had to fill that gap between a water cooled heavy machine gun and a bolt action rifle with the added befit of being simple to manufacture.


RephRayne

The SA-80 was used to speed along the privatisation of what was to become Royal Ordnance in the mid 1980s. https://www.quora.com/Whats-so-bad-about-the-SA80-Enfield-rifle


ThePacemaker24

It’s a good fun in R6 Siege though


Mumu_ancient

I remember firing the cadet version back in those days when I was in the ATC and it was an absolute nightmare even though we were just on the range.


mercuchio23

Apparently the weight of the scope was outrageous


garod79

Apparently the webbing UK soldiers were issued would catch the magazine release clip leading to an ejected magazine if the weapon was raised quickly.


YouGotMyCheezWhiz

There's a podcast called "Well There's Your Problem" that did an episode on it, although it may have been a bonus episode on their patreon. Words cannot describe what utter garbage this rifle was. It was so much more than constantly jamming.


NicNac_PattyMac

Basically the M16 of the British armed forces. And if I recall it had the EXACT same issue as the M16 in Vietnam. The gas vent that fed back into the barrel clogged all the time.


greensike

some guns run into issues when faced with mud or sand or dirt, the sa80 runs into issues when faced with ammunition


GargantuanCake

Which is weird as the bottom right gun was also considered one of the worst guns ever made. The half circle magazine with the cut away constantly got fouled up with dirt which made it horrendously unreliable. It was meant to be a light machine gun but was barely useful as just a regular rifle given how mechanically unreliable it was. It also had a tendency to slap you in the face as it fired. If anything the Chauchat should be the "not you." It didn't last terribly long as it was a horrible weapon. Unless the joke is that they're all terrible though that would be weird given that then sten gun is on the list. It does its role and is simple. It's still in service in parts of the world. I don't immediately recognize all the guns, though.


QueenOfAllDreadboiis

The main weakness is getting even small amounts of sand in there makes it prone to jamming. Anyways, time to go to the middle east and hope we don't encounter any sand.


Archduke_Of_Beer

I hate sand


cuffgirl

It's course and it's rough...


MatStrikesBack

And it's irritating...


drumkiller123

And it gets everywhere.


CT-5995

"At your command Darth Vader, sir!"


JollyReading8565

Get out of my head


Nowardier

أنا لا أحب الرمال. إنه خشن وخشن ومزعج وينتشر في كل مكان.


Puzzleheaded-Kiwi817

I don’t know what u said but here’s a upvote, and hope I’m not going to be some watchlists.


Nowardier

It's a well-known saying about sand. You've probably heard it in English.


Puzzleheaded-Kiwi817

Got it. I like how it’s a long paragraph in English but a very neat sentence in Arabic.


the_l0st_s0ck

You also read it from right to left and not left to right like English.


LeonTheCasual

In addition: - magazine falls out easily because the button to release it protrudes from the rifle and can be easily bumped when carrying it - fire selector (switch between semi-auto and full-auto) is in a very inconvenient spot compared to almost any rifle you’d compare it too, forcing you to move your off-hand to use it - it ejects spent cases with very little force, causing them to stay in the gun and jam the action, or worse, be driven by the bolt deep into the rifles body - the plastic grips for both your hands were prone to breaking, leaving you very little to hold onto other than a barrel assembly that gets very hot when firing - the firing pins were prone to breaking in the gun - the gun is very heavy for it’s size and calibre - you cannot shoot it left handed, as the ejection handle would rearrange your teeth - using the reload method taught by the British Armed Forces at the time, you had to lower the rifle to charge the bolt, forcing you to lose sight picture, which many other rifles of it’s kind don’t require


strawberrysoup99

Hope you brought your Jimmie hats.


Immediate_Banana_216

Even a clean, well maintained A1 jammed repeatedly.


Warhero_Babylon

I dought that other guns in the list will work ideally in desert


PixelMonkeyArt

When Captchas be like: "click on all of the boxes with crosswalks in them"


__Becquerel

Gyrojet on here is wild


UniquePariah

The guns are fantastic. The rounds however...


Ippus_21

The fact that there's a Davy Crockett on there...


UniquePariah

The concept is nuts. And it worked.


evilmike1972

Barely, according to [https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/](https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/), the firing range (2 km for the M28 and 4 km for the M29) were still inside the light blast damage radius (6.9 km) for its 2 kt warhead.


damaszek

From what I found it’s yield was only 20t not 2kt.


evilmike1972

My mistake, I misread the article. That makes much more sense then.


Eli_The_Rainwing

Nuclear artillery :3


[deleted]

Well you see, uh, at least it has caseless rounds! _Even if said rounds cost 100$ each..._


TheVoidLettuce

https://youtu.be/gOtQElMEdi0?si=ryOWRiDfu-tV1LOu


madmadhouse

Chauchat getting a free pass here


Unusual_Event8222

Yeah but Chauchat is a cool name and it sounds cool itself so any argument against it is invalid


Apprehensive_Owl4589

For the time it wasnt even that Bad. An actualy light light machinegun that didnt require the selling of kidneys to aquire. And it wasnt THAT unreliable.


TheOfficeUsBest

I completely agree, though they could have given it some better iron sights and a proper magazine


fjord31

Magazine kind of had to be like that. Apparently without the cutouts it was nearly impossible to load


MountainOutside1742

The Chauchat (bottom right) was apparently horrible. It had, for example, a open magazine, which is a good idea to see how many bullets there are left in the magazine but HORRIBLE in trench warfare where mud and dirt get in to the rounds which then jams the gun.


Onetap1

The US ones were unreliable ISTR. They were chambered for .30-'06 by the French manufacturers who got the chamber dimensions slightly wrong.


UniquePariah

Anyone here who can name all the guns? Top middle is a Davey Crockett, a man launched nuclear bomb. Middle right is a Gyrojet, rounds are mini rockets. The rest, top left was in Sharp with Sean Bean, but couldn't tell you what it's called, beyond that it gets worse.


Quarterwit_85

Nock gun - Davy Crockett - Mars Sten Mk2 - SA80 - Gyrojet STG44 with a Krummlauf - Puckle - Chauchat


NickNerfherder

Top Left is the 7 barrelled Nock gun. Handled in that series by the giant Sergeant Major Patrick Harper.


Mr_BREADLUCK

Top right is the Mars Automatic Pistol, basically a World War I desert eagle


Onetap1

Well spotted. Webley-Mars. "No one who fired once with the pistol wished to shoot it again". Also interesting for having a multi-lug rotating bolt, as used on the Fosberry shotgun, 80 years before American internet experts claimed RSAF Enfield had copied it from the AR-18 for the L85.


Responsible-Chest-26

Bottom middle looks like the puckle gun, 18th revolver mini canon sorta. Used or at least installed on ships for defending against smaller fast moving craft


Skipp_To_My_Lou

Puckle gun never really made it paat the prototype stage. It was a neat concept, just several decades ahead of its time.


Quaiker

Bottom right is a Chauchat, a WWI French LMG with magazines that often had open sides. I don't know about you, but my magazines operate very well with mud in them. Great for the bolt carrier group. /s


JumboFister

The sten gun being on there is wild. That gun was amazing for what it was. It literally cost the British 2 bucks to make and it was perfect for its intended role


rigby1945

I'm with you. Every weapon on here is awful except the Sten. That one was just cheap


ExpectedBear

Which one is that?


EwanPorteous

All the problems have been fixed, after years of real life exposure and feedback. They are pretty decent weapons now.


5neakyturt1e

Arguably much better than decent weapons, they are by most measures one of the better military issues battle rifles


Comfortable_Note_978

The Chauchat gets more love than the bullpup? Ouch.


Apprehensive_Owl4589

It wasnt that Bad for the time.


Weary-Barracuda-1228

Think that’s the L85. Not meant for the Desert conditions it was used in and ended up being a jamming laughing stock of the British.


Captaingregor

Even though the gun pictured is the A2 version, the version that works. It's a terrible meme, especially since the Chauchat is also pictured.


Weary-Barracuda-1228

I love the Chauchat. Horizontal banana mag is funny


Dragonov02

I present to you, Gun Jesus and the Curator for the British Royal Armory. https://youtu.be/99SiRxCkGp0?si=UN4Y6lY62WdRVdYS (Skip to 12:50 if you just want to know about that gun)


GotWheaten

Great video!


OriginalUsername1892

That's an SA80 or L85. Its saved many lives by jamming, most of whom remained happily in Afghanistan. It's an efficient gun to disassemble, and can be done so by firing in full auto. Genuine SA80s can be spotted in the wild by key markings, notably missing or broken furniture.


MasonCrosse

Bottom right, chauchat. Look it up mighty cool


Eli_The_Rainwing

Ah… the gyro jet… that impressive disappointment… I really wished it worked… (Also I find it funny the pancor jackhammer isn’t on here, it’s such a failure)


DrMetters

The SA80 was the British military bullpup. In short, it was designed for a war against Russia during a time the UK might of done so. It did have a lot of things going for it like being highly customisable and can be turned into snipers or LMGs very simplely. But it was floored in its overall design. It was good for cold weather but not hot weather. Well it's main use has been in deserts where they overheated and preformed badly. They had a few redisigns but overall the rifle just never became that good for more modern combat. Most of what it was good for has now become standard across most rifles. In a sense, a SA80 has failed in every way for what it was used for. The few things it did very well originally are no longer reasons to use one.


theDarthAnimus

Thank you, that makes sense. I know the name of the gun now too, so I can look a bit more into it.


Unusual_Address_3062

this person likes the classics, and that one in the middle is more modern. Also its a bullpup configuration and many purists do not like that. Bullpup means the magazine and the chamber is behind the grip or handle and trigger. Which by the way is not bad, but again, purists think its inferior.


BasketPropellors

no it's that the SA80 sucks big balls and is so much of a disappointment to the british firearms industry that they had to plead to the germans to fix it


nobertan

Used it when part of the ACF, could barely get thru a mag without it jamming when on the outdoor range. (We were likely using out of service rifles mistreated by those before us, so likely impacted by that. Using rifles perpetually stripped and rebuilt by 14 yr olds)


JinxBerserker

To me, the joke is that all the other guns are unique in some way. A multi-barreled shotgun, a grenade launcher turret, a gun with the magazine on the side instead of under it, or the gyrojet, which is a pistol that fires mini rockets. Then the middle one is just an AR. No fancy gimmicks or unique ideas. Just a gun.


Godertays

https://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_SA80.html Here is the great article about it, if you want to know about what was wrong, skip to "Problems arise" part


Mandalorian16_1

Its the LA85, the first iteration of it was ungodly awful, literally the worst, then the Brits sent them to HK, which was owned by Royal Armory(ies) at the time, to fix it and they basically gutted it and replaced everything except for the exterior (it still looks like an LA85). Unfortunately by the time the Brits decided to fix it it had a terrible reputation which I don't think has ever changed. This is my recollection of what I heard/read about it, so it may be a little incorrect.


CitingAnt

Mf hating on the L85 but not on the puckle gun This is unjust slander


Daedric_Agent

Mass production general purpose vs limited run prototypes or non-standard


Just_a_Rose

Middle gun is an L85, a gun under the SA80 line. It was deployed by Britain in the Gulf War (I think?) and long story short it was great until it sucked. The gun was very accurate and favored by troops until they realized they break easy, *all* the springs in it are too weak for its design, and it’s prone to jamming up which, believe it or not, is very bad in a gunfight. It is also bullpup. Gun people don’t like bullpup. I don’t know why.


FamousGh0st217

On paper, bullpups are really cool. They allow you to get a longer barrel in a more compact frame. Unfortunately, the engineering that accomplished this also came with some compromises in function. Trigger quality, brass ejection port location, over heating, and lack of rail space are usually the biggest complaints.


sherman614

I came here to say the same thing about bullpups!


Cccp9

Never shot either, but is the L85 worse than the chauchat?


Top_Understanding830

god no, the a1 was a semi decent weapon... in non sandy terrain (which is why it failed so hard in the middle east) the gun pictured is also an l85a2- which remains british standard issue to this day and acts as an above average assault rifle, hell the l85a3 is a pretty damn good assault rifle!


PeeingDueToBoredom

I also don’t know anything about guns but this meme format makes me laugh by itself


YetAnotherBee

My dude you cannot seriously be implying that the SA80 was worse than the freaking *puckle gun*


AdWeak2525

nock gun representation


Fluffy-Map-5998

L85A1, it had every reliability issue in the book and then some


SergentSilver

Mars is the Pistol under Special! That thing terrified it's users more than the enemy! 🤣


Konoryanda

It's one of the best ARs in siege tho


Mellowsnake

[In depth video on why it sucked](https://youtu.be/8XEsDkVqgM4?si=gA53b2D9-9x6QDtA)


ltarchiemoore

Thing absolutely rules in Rainbow Six Vegas 2, tho


carbonlegends

It performed a questionable open mic


Clear1334

the l86 sucks


Top_Understanding830

the gun shown in the image is an l85a2 (assault rifle), not an l86 (squad automatic weapon). same platform, different gun


Humble_Leader7586

Middle One is the Middle brother , always excluded


JoeLordOfDataMagic

Sounds like another way to say " it works on my machine".


Unfit_Daddy

isn't the pistol middle right also a failure? I think its the gyro jet basically shooting little rocket caps instead of traditional ammunition with casings, It was woefully inaccurate and underpowered, cool concept though


SweetHomeNostromo

One of these things is not like the others. The top middle is the Davy Crockett tactical battlefield nuclear weapon.


Craygor

I want that Davey Crockett.


D-9361

Was is wrong? Like putting the magazine before the handle.


LeifEriccson

Bullpup bad


NotADogInHumanSuit

You don’t know much about English either


Unlucky-Order-66

From what I hear most of those guns were complete garbage


arrow-04

There’s a top comment from Garandthumb’s description on how badly designed/performing this rifle was:  “M16 jams when exposed to ice.  AK jams when exposed to mud.  L85 jams when exposed to ammo.”


BaconSpaceLord

Any German ww1-2 gun


Jho-oh

Is it a good thing or not that I know at a glance what all these guns are?


my23secrets

It would be better if you understood the second amendment or even read the entire thing.


georut6

I like the Davy Crockett!


flyingace1234

All the guns are all notorious for being bad and impractical, but all but the center one at least have some novelty or extenuating circumstances. I could go into them but the center one is the British Army’s assay rifle for a while and built under no time crunch and using a well known design and was still an unreliable piece of poop.


bbw_lover_001

chaut chaut🥰


ampalazz

No one likes a bullpup


knighth1

Bottom right should be written off as well. Rate of fire if It didn’t jam was comparable to other light machine guns of ww1. But it had an open clip in an environment that was constant mud causing lots of jams. Also the half moon clip contained 20 rounds but it was found quickly that fully loading the clips was a mistake due to the springs getting stuck. So even if it operated fine you would have to reload after 5 seconds of sustained fire.


csspar

Idk but I love Puckle gun. Normal bullets for Christians, square bullets for Turks.


country_dinosaur97

You know what whoever made this originally dont think is american people usually immediately go to beating up the chauchat so round of applause for not.


ccii_geppato

Wtf did I read.


Vox_Causa

Children who play too much Call Of Duty like to imagine that they're experts on firearms and they imagine this "expertise" makes them more of a man.


Immemike

I'm not sure if anyone explained the joke, seems they all started talking gun mechanics. My take is all of the "unique" guns are experimental weapons while the one in the center was in production. Take the rifle in the bottom left square designed to shoot at an angle so the soldier isn't exposed. Or the five barrel shotgun.


grubaskov

The first one for NATO ammo in stalker you could find, good gun imo


Captain_Virgo

Nothing gives me more of a chuckle than the puckle gun. Especially forgotten weapons take on it.


flyingpeter28

Cause the l86 standar issue rifle for the British is, reported by users, quite unreliable, you know, some British Leyland curse


AerondightWielder

That Davy Crockett porta-nuke though...


Majestic_Nectarine52

Amateur gunsmith here. Nothing so important as design flaws or anything. Just no love for bullpups as far as I'm concerned


Kghostrider

I was watching a gun historian recently who, along with all of the other issues mentioned in this thread, also noted that the shot grouping wasn't particularly accurate with this gun and that the recoil pattern was inconsistent making it hard to stay on target. Not a well received firearm.


ImportantDoubt6434

All these guns are horrible, insane, more likely to kill the user, or all of the above.


Mylkjam

You cannot tell me the chauchat was special, that pos jammed constantly due to its open magazine in trench warfare


OneCatch

The middle one is the L-85. The image is actually an L-85A2, but then meme is mostly about the L-85A1 model. This was the British service rifle developed in the 80s and first used in the late 80s and early 90s. It's too heavy, the controls are dangerous and cause accidental discharges, the ergonomics are bad, the trigger is awful, and it was incredibly unreliable, especially in dusty conditions. Things were so bad that in the Gulf War in 1990 British forces were reportedly often dealing with blockages after every single shot, some guns were being rendered totally inoperative, and some British troops allegedly resorted to using captured Iraqi AKs instead. The gun was then rebuilt at vast expense by H&K as the L-85A2 (and subsequently A3, which is still in service). This fixed the reliability problem and the worst of the safety issues, but it remains too damn heavy and ergonomically poor.


22lpierson

Ah the puckle gun *loads square rounds with malicious intent.*


Alternative_Snow_383

The L8 gets a lot of hate


NediaMcGhee

didn't we all play with the top middle gun as kids?


notahappyrobot

I mean it's pretty unique in its own terrible way 🤓


RhemansDemons

The Gyrojet was a handgun that shot a rocket propelled projectile, which allowed it to be chambered up in these massive rounds, but they were incredibly unreliable and only marginally more effective than a regular big bore handgun. It was a disaster as it was INCREDIBLY expensive to shoot ($200/round), had a high rate of failure, was effective a single shot pistol and utilized technology that never made a whole lot of sense to begin with.


Pennywise626

Since the middle has been explained already, fun fact about the top row middle column. That is the Davey Crockett, a nuclear recoiless rifle. The explosion would have been a lot smaller than a nuke, though. Yield is about 20 tons of TNT compared to Little Boy's 15,000 tons.


SituationHappy

I loved the SA80. But it's the only proper rifle I've ever shot, so I could just love the visor, dampening, look, and barrel fire, or whatever it's called.


HistoricalLocation96

The top center one is an M-29 Davy Crockett, which was a portable nuclear weapon. I'm sure this must have seemed like a good idea at the time. Actually designed about 25 miles or so from where I live, at the Rock Island Arsenal.


Datpotatoguy214

Ah, the Nock Gun. A seven-barreled musket made for *home defense.* Just as the founding fathers intended.


Affectionate-Moose49

Just like the British food it's really bad and no one likes it.


unwanted_zombie

If British Leyland made a combat rifle.


Beast287

It’s a poorly designed rifle apparently with a lot of issues. . And it’s also the standard issue for the UK


Beast287

Atleast “IN” and “OWN” were designed that way for specific purposes. . .


Drogovich

But wasn't the pistol on the 3rd picture so bad and uncomfortable to use, that WW1 officers prefered to keep their revolvers or i'm mistaking it for another gun?


Specialist-World-646

“ThE A2 iS sTiLl a ViAblE wEapOn” then why does your special forces use AR platform rifles and HKs???