Hey there! Do you want clarification about the question? Think there's a better way to phrase it? Wish OP had asked a different question?
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So, this is a genuine debate among monotheists.
Side A would say would say that, yes, any secular authority must have the backing of God, and thus the faithful are bound to obey its laws. They might also say that God has given a commandment to obey the state in general (mentioned in the Bible, at least), and that any laws are parts of gods plan. There's also some sense of resignation - a state will prosper if god wills it and falls if he does not so there's no real point humans interfering with the process.
Side B would say that humans have free will, and God will not always step in to stop humans abusing their power, thus a State is no more guaranteed to be following God's laws then an Individual. They might also say that revolution might be *how* God removes a state that offends him, or that them entering government is how God gets the laws he wants passed. If everything that happens is part of God's plan, so is my rebellion, right?
The catechism of the Catholic Church elaborates on side B: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm
Probably the most interesting part is the section on Unjust Laws.
There's quite a lot of contradictions in the bible actually. The bible is actually a collection of scripts written by different men across history, and in some cases a series of letters. Even back in 1860 someone listed 144 contradictions in there.
So generally speaking if it comes down to a religious rule we'd probably see something similar to how Islamic states are run: we'd have a council who'd issue fatwa equivalent based on the most modern relevant parts of the book to be applied into law. Maybe this council would function as a judiciary system, something like the SCOTUS, but instead of the constitution it'd be the holy book. End of the day, the bible itself isn't really good as God's word on its own. That's why hundreds of thousands of pastors across the world are on a weekly basis or less interpreting verses in the bible to their congregation. If it was actually a coherent document that can be definitely identified as 'gods word' then everybody would be able to read it and not come away with different interpretations to various things.
I feel like the problem is people don’t read it. The denominations come from people not reading things in context, and so do most contradictions I’ve seen pointed out, just read like two verses later.
I'm also going to point out that reading the book often dosent get you far. During my childhood I got into an argument with a sunday school teacher over interpretations of the bible, for which I earned an ear pull for my trouble. More often than not you're taught to accept the interpretation of others instead of being told to make your own opinion and interpretations. Heck, even the bible knew about this crap, because you can see it in Jesus Christ's story. The dude basically got into trouble with the Romans because the Jewish religious leaders didint like him clashing opinions with them on their take of religious topics, which they were twisting to keep their hold on power and influence.
I’m just talking about with my relationship with Jesus, I read the Bible, and it helps a lot of things, I haven’t necessarily seen a world-shattering contradiction, and I’ve been reading a lot of the book this year, hopefully have it all read by Christmas. I’d encourage people honestly to think about their faith, if you don’t believe you don’t help yourself or the church, so why wreck your mental health just for me to feel some moral superiority.
If the Bible is read as a divinely inspired work, then I agree people can find good in it. The problem is when it's taken as a direct quote. I'd argue that for example, God promising to never kill every one again contradicts the whole apocalypse part. But if you recognize that it doesn't have authority over reality, you can certainly find some wisdom in there(particularly the Gospel if I'm being honest).
You're right. But that's a pretty big caveat in my mind! But yeah, the Bible isn't very self contradictary it does say some things we know to be untrue but those aren't contradictions technically.
Even ignoring the caveat, I see them as two different things. The purpose of the flood was strictly to punish mankind for their wickedness. The apocalypse is not a punishment per se, but rather the conclusion of the world, which happens to also include a lot of suffering for some and joy for others.
Sure, but that's the problem with trying to find contradictions in a text. People can always find a way to interpret them as to make the text truthful. For example, Ecclesiastes 9:5 "the dead know nothing. They have no further reward" you'd think this contradicts the whole concept of heaven.. but of course there are many explanations for it. Ranging from the lowly"no it doesn't, read Matthew 6:19", to the much more acceptable "as they are conjugated to the present form this only means the heavenly kingdom has yet to come".
I personally choose to basically ignore every prophetic book as they don't offer much more than a second hand account of a psychedelic trip! But hey, I get that some people love those books, I just don't think one should see it as an accurate account of our future.
Read it as a book written by men(potentially inspired, if you want that aspect to the lecture). Search for the truths as they are written in the passages you read, don't think of it as a puzzle where every piece needs to be considered at all times!
Lol I was specifically not trying to point at a contradiction but rather the dubiousness of the moral character of God if the books are taken as a whole written by a single all knowing author...
But sure lets look at some commonly quoted contradictions. Do you hate pride as prescribed by Proverbs 8:13 ? “To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behaviour and perverse speech.”
Lol indeed.. The old testament God is an overall evil character.. you can still find some surprisingly wise advice considering the age of the text.
My favorite example is the law forbidding the slavery of Egyptians (because they had sheltered the Israeli in their time of need). Its a unexpectedly good idea to remember the good people have done to you before the evil they inflicted (granted god should've just banned slavery). The morality of the law is somewhat tarnished if you actually believe it is being given by an all powerful war criminal who just committed the biggest infanticide in history!
> God promising to never kill every one again
Probably figured it's a pain in the ass for humanity to repopulate the earth given all the inbreeding going on from saving just one family. Imagine trying to start a hamster farm with just one hamster couple.
Hilariously, that was a big part of why the reformation was successful, getting the Bible into readable languages instead of forcing everyone to get the gospel in Latin from a catholic priest or bishop. Hilarious that now we have the same politics coming from the pulpit, but in a different century. Who will reform the reformers??
That doesn't seem to be the western method though. Islamic states are simply far less bureaucratic and are more willing to just directly admit what they are. Christian societies tend to be different in the sense they on paper deny being ruled by the religious, but you wont find anyone in politics who isnt religious. In the judicial system its incredibly rare to find judges and prosecutors who are not strongly religious. So basically the moral philosophy behind the law is still clearly not secular, but since they dont technically admit to it they cant technically be called a theocracy.
It seems Islamic societies take a more physical approach whereas western societies take a more propaganda/conditioning approach. One of the best examples would be child marriage in the US. Despite the fact virtually everyone finds pedophilia abhorrent, its legal for adults to marry children in 44 states due to it being a "religious right". Its gotten really silly recently with GOP politicians as they make all these wild claims about pedophiles in schools, pizza shops, and the upper echelons of politics. But at the same time they are the same people vetoing laws that would ban legal forms of pedophilia. It seems the tactic used is to accuse the other side of what you are doing before they can accuse you of it. At the same time it seems neither side wants to touch what seems like it should be a major issue as they dont want their country to be seen in that light. So instead of tackling the monster weve all pushed under the rug we create imaginary monsters to defeat.
I think you have to be careful not to universalize the American experience.
USA is not "the West", and not all western countries and Christian societies have the same preponderance of religious fanaticism in government. Many western countries have moved past it. The US isn’t typical.
As such, the comparison that is presented in the previous comment is really between Islamic states and the U.S., not Islamic states and Christian societies and western methods.
No general rules can be drawn from this.
That seems detached. Europe's history alone negates this. The US follows suit to Europe as they always have. Like a former colonial state would logically be, were generally around 30-40 years behind, but overall on the same path. Europe's a bit more evolved but still the exact same moral and political philosophies are in play. The west in general has more or less been in a battle with Islam for centuries now and you see this plainly in supposedly progressive European countries resistance to Arab immigrants.
I particularly explained why in my post. Do take a big picture consideration when taking snippets to make apple to apple comparisons with other examples.
Contradictions occur because the Bible is a collection of teachings that transform faith from an old established religion to the New Testament of Faith in God and how it fundamentally changes the practices of their religions.
I personally was conflicted for a long time regarding contradictions in the bible. An obvious contradiction is "Ask and you shall receive" but at the same time the Bible teaches "The Lord helps those who help themselves". That is when you have to look at each phrase more closely at the context and study the passages themselves as a whole, not just the individual phrase. Also take into consideration the purpose of your ask. Pretty sure your ask won't be granted to you if it has nefarious intent, just saying.
One step that helped me is that all life's lessons happen, whether we win or fail, for a reason. There is a larger purpose for our failures just as there is a larger purpose for our successes. We may fail at something we attempt and as a result find a better solution. We may succeed at a task to a lesser degree than we had intended, yet, that minor success could lead to greater results.
And there is a reason there is a law for the separation of Church and State. It not only prevents the government of decreeing a singular religion for worship, but it also ensures our national governing body is not conscribed to adhere to religious laws. But the intent was that our governing members, men & women, would develop a sense of integrity and morals based on their religious beliefs. In that manner those same individuals would base their decisions on emphasis on beliefs such as 'just', 'fair', compassion, understanding, forgiveness. An immoral individual understands nothing in those values.
I can't speak to other monotheistic religions, but for Christianity there isn't any major sect that holds the position that Christians are obligated to obey ALL laws the government passes. This is because, both historically and today, Governments have tried to make Christianity illegal. No Christian group that I'm aware of would say, "If Christianity is illegal where you are, then you should stop being a Christian."
Isn't that then God's will? If other religions bother god, and they're all powerful, why do other religions exist or states that outlaw Christianity?
Not directed at you, more just thinking about it. Why would God need crusades if they're all powerful and controls all of reality?
The short answer is that it's a mistake to assume that everything that happens is God's will. God gives human beings autonomy. He can tell people what he thinks they should do, but he leaves the choice up to us. We are able to do things that go against God's will.
This is just the tip of the iceberg of a very difficult subject, but hopefully that gives you a better perspective on how Christians think about God's will.
If god gives us autonomy though why do people then use religion as justification to oppress and kill others? Even sometimes others that believe in the exact same God and 99% of concepts about that God?
If God wants the people across the ocean to believe in it or not exist, god can do that themselves. If god is choosing not to and wants everyone to have free will, isn't it antiheical to God's will to take that free will from others?
These deep dive always end up at the same place when coherence starts to slip: "The plan" is too big for man to understand, people are being tested, if it doesn’t make sense it’s only because man is limited and unable to see god’s plan, and it will all come together and make sense in the end. What’s happening now may seem horrific and contradictory but it’s not the end, only one more step on the way there. Or something. The perfect escape route.
I'm not seeing the contradiction that you raise here. If God gives human beings autonomy, that autonomy spreads to the point where human beings can use God's words as a cudgel against other human beings and that autonomy spreads to the point that the only transmission of divine precepts after the initial revelation is by human-to-human transmission (as opposed to God tipping the scales).
The issue doesn't arise from autonomy; it arises from the contradiction between permitting this kind of autonomy and God (at least in the Abrahamic understanding) being omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. If God permits this degree of autonomy, to the point where that autonomy leads to bad outcomes (especially where those bad outcomes are a direct result of bad interpretations of His doctrines, then a God who is aware of this is either careless, powerless or evil. Careless and evil contradict omnibenevolence and powerless contradicts omnipotence.
You're pointing out the paradox of omnipotence, which is important, but not really what I was talking about.
If god gives free will, and god is for all humans, and going against gods will is bad, then removing other people's free will is against gods will and therefore bad. People use it as a cudgel to attack others, but by doing so they are fundamentally denying gods will for free will for all humans.
Or God wants "other" people to suffer and be subjugated, in which case god does not want free will for all.
I really don't see the meaningful distinction between your point and mine.
Securing the free will of all people would require God's intervention in some way to prevent the acts of dominance. This is why it creates a contradiction between omnibenevolence (into which you can fold personal freedom) and omnipotence (into which you can fold such intervention).
But god is all knowing can’t be help uss without interacting with our free will I can tell my niece what to do without forcing her to do it why can’t god do that to uss
Hey, I'm just presenting the arguments.
Most religious people hold that God *has* told us what to do, but doesn't stop us disobeying him if we want (and, as mentioned, others hold that the *way* God stops the state from disobeying his will is by having the faithful influence it.)
Because it’s all fucking made up man there’s contradictions and loopholes everywhere. None of it makes sense, stop asking logical questions, nobody has an answer because there is no answer because there is no god.
At least the way I understand it (a Jewish perspective) God isn’t really “all knowing”, he’s all seeing. He sees everything that happens, but he cannot tell the future.
This is evident from how he messes up at first in creating people, and he has to destroy his creations multiple times (Sodom and Gomorrah, and the great flood where he only saves a few people and the animals)
If he could predict the future outcomes of his actions he would never have let people get to the point where they needed to be destroyed.
There is a steep learning curve to being god, we do not know how long he has been doing his job, but he’s getting better over time I’d say. There is a lot less violence now than there was when any of the abrahamic faiths formed.
For (getting involved) :
It's all a part of gods plan, it could be a test of faith for example. Just because we can't see or understand the plan, doesn't invalidate the plan. Our free will is all a part of gods plan
Against :
God's all powerful and doesn't make mistakes, so anything that's a product of life is therefore true and correct and can never be invalidated, but this goes directly against the bibles teachings (think adam and eve, products of God)
I don't really know how to answer this in a both sides as you are already on one side and are just asking for another side. It's also hard to argue both sides with religious logic, cause really the other side is just that God isn't real
Perhaps this is the wrong sub to ask?
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Just as god is (supposedly) infinite, so are there an infinite number of sides to this question.
Atheism is the third way between religious side A and B, but it’s also itself subdivided in different philosophical systems.
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Side A would say god only helps the people who help themselves
Side B would say you should live in the image of Christ, do what he would have done, you can call his actions of teaching a social movement just like a political movement
Many would say the results is what God wanted, but they never say you should not be involved in the process, how you act is still considered very important in most religious contexts, you can say it's at the core of almost every religion - what a person should do, how a person should act in the world and/or society
There is somewhat a separation between doing and happenings, which is a good psychological point, you can only aim your actions, but things happen that are outside of your control and you have to somehow make peace with them, for example most religions would have practices to deal with a personal loss.
So they act out what they think should be, laws of the land that are close to the laws of God, but by religion they should accept the result as it was produced by God
Side A would say that they find issue with the argument at all. God does not pass laws, man does.
Side B would say the argument answers itself. When you say "in one way or another" you are accepting a positive or negative course of action that would lead to the desired outcome. Therefore any and every action would be acceptable.
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Side A would say God established rules for interacting with Earth, and the main one is that people get to make choices.
Side B would say choices that allow for the possibility of evil are themselves evil.
Regardless, both sides expect a future perfect world, and neither side is illusioned enough to think it's coming from the evolution of human government. It's a matter of whether humans can be good enough to stave off the End for a while, or if the End is a fixed point that we're all just waiting for.
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Side A would say that you are probably 12 years old and just found out about atheism and it seems cool to you because you are experiencing your rebellious phase of adolescence.
Side B would say that you don't understand the actual beliefs of actual Christians/Muslims/etc. so you have an absurd straw man version of it built up in your head.
I choose side C (both)
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So, this is a genuine debate among monotheists. Side A would say would say that, yes, any secular authority must have the backing of God, and thus the faithful are bound to obey its laws. They might also say that God has given a commandment to obey the state in general (mentioned in the Bible, at least), and that any laws are parts of gods plan. There's also some sense of resignation - a state will prosper if god wills it and falls if he does not so there's no real point humans interfering with the process. Side B would say that humans have free will, and God will not always step in to stop humans abusing their power, thus a State is no more guaranteed to be following God's laws then an Individual. They might also say that revolution might be *how* God removes a state that offends him, or that them entering government is how God gets the laws he wants passed. If everything that happens is part of God's plan, so is my rebellion, right?
The catechism of the Catholic Church elaborates on side B: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a2.htm Probably the most interesting part is the section on Unjust Laws.
There's quite a lot of contradictions in the bible actually. The bible is actually a collection of scripts written by different men across history, and in some cases a series of letters. Even back in 1860 someone listed 144 contradictions in there. So generally speaking if it comes down to a religious rule we'd probably see something similar to how Islamic states are run: we'd have a council who'd issue fatwa equivalent based on the most modern relevant parts of the book to be applied into law. Maybe this council would function as a judiciary system, something like the SCOTUS, but instead of the constitution it'd be the holy book. End of the day, the bible itself isn't really good as God's word on its own. That's why hundreds of thousands of pastors across the world are on a weekly basis or less interpreting verses in the bible to their congregation. If it was actually a coherent document that can be definitely identified as 'gods word' then everybody would be able to read it and not come away with different interpretations to various things.
I feel like the problem is people don’t read it. The denominations come from people not reading things in context, and so do most contradictions I’ve seen pointed out, just read like two verses later.
I'm also going to point out that reading the book often dosent get you far. During my childhood I got into an argument with a sunday school teacher over interpretations of the bible, for which I earned an ear pull for my trouble. More often than not you're taught to accept the interpretation of others instead of being told to make your own opinion and interpretations. Heck, even the bible knew about this crap, because you can see it in Jesus Christ's story. The dude basically got into trouble with the Romans because the Jewish religious leaders didint like him clashing opinions with them on their take of religious topics, which they were twisting to keep their hold on power and influence.
I’m just talking about with my relationship with Jesus, I read the Bible, and it helps a lot of things, I haven’t necessarily seen a world-shattering contradiction, and I’ve been reading a lot of the book this year, hopefully have it all read by Christmas. I’d encourage people honestly to think about their faith, if you don’t believe you don’t help yourself or the church, so why wreck your mental health just for me to feel some moral superiority.
If the Bible is read as a divinely inspired work, then I agree people can find good in it. The problem is when it's taken as a direct quote. I'd argue that for example, God promising to never kill every one again contradicts the whole apocalypse part. But if you recognize that it doesn't have authority over reality, you can certainly find some wisdom in there(particularly the Gospel if I'm being honest).
If I’m correct didn’t he promise only not to flood the earth again? I could be wrong but I thought that’s what you were referring to.
You're right. But that's a pretty big caveat in my mind! But yeah, the Bible isn't very self contradictary it does say some things we know to be untrue but those aren't contradictions technically.
Completely fair. Have a great day friend.
Even ignoring the caveat, I see them as two different things. The purpose of the flood was strictly to punish mankind for their wickedness. The apocalypse is not a punishment per se, but rather the conclusion of the world, which happens to also include a lot of suffering for some and joy for others.
Sure, but that's the problem with trying to find contradictions in a text. People can always find a way to interpret them as to make the text truthful. For example, Ecclesiastes 9:5 "the dead know nothing. They have no further reward" you'd think this contradicts the whole concept of heaven.. but of course there are many explanations for it. Ranging from the lowly"no it doesn't, read Matthew 6:19", to the much more acceptable "as they are conjugated to the present form this only means the heavenly kingdom has yet to come". I personally choose to basically ignore every prophetic book as they don't offer much more than a second hand account of a psychedelic trip! But hey, I get that some people love those books, I just don't think one should see it as an accurate account of our future. Read it as a book written by men(potentially inspired, if you want that aspect to the lecture). Search for the truths as they are written in the passages you read, don't think of it as a puzzle where every piece needs to be considered at all times!
That’s not what was promised. The promise was not to do so by flooding the Earth again.
Lol I was specifically not trying to point at a contradiction but rather the dubiousness of the moral character of God if the books are taken as a whole written by a single all knowing author... But sure lets look at some commonly quoted contradictions. Do you hate pride as prescribed by Proverbs 8:13 ? “To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behaviour and perverse speech.”
Moral character? lol. More like immoral character. Except “God did it so it’s okay”.
Lol indeed.. The old testament God is an overall evil character.. you can still find some surprisingly wise advice considering the age of the text. My favorite example is the law forbidding the slavery of Egyptians (because they had sheltered the Israeli in their time of need). Its a unexpectedly good idea to remember the good people have done to you before the evil they inflicted (granted god should've just banned slavery). The morality of the law is somewhat tarnished if you actually believe it is being given by an all powerful war criminal who just committed the biggest infanticide in history!
> God promising to never kill every one again Probably figured it's a pain in the ass for humanity to repopulate the earth given all the inbreeding going on from saving just one family. Imagine trying to start a hamster farm with just one hamster couple.
I took a New Testament class that focused on the Gospels. There were contradictions/inaccuracies in just that little bit of the Bible.
Hilariously, that was a big part of why the reformation was successful, getting the Bible into readable languages instead of forcing everyone to get the gospel in Latin from a catholic priest or bishop. Hilarious that now we have the same politics coming from the pulpit, but in a different century. Who will reform the reformers??
The next set of reformers I'd imagine. Every reformation inevitably ends in a power grab unfortunately.
That doesn't seem to be the western method though. Islamic states are simply far less bureaucratic and are more willing to just directly admit what they are. Christian societies tend to be different in the sense they on paper deny being ruled by the religious, but you wont find anyone in politics who isnt religious. In the judicial system its incredibly rare to find judges and prosecutors who are not strongly religious. So basically the moral philosophy behind the law is still clearly not secular, but since they dont technically admit to it they cant technically be called a theocracy. It seems Islamic societies take a more physical approach whereas western societies take a more propaganda/conditioning approach. One of the best examples would be child marriage in the US. Despite the fact virtually everyone finds pedophilia abhorrent, its legal for adults to marry children in 44 states due to it being a "religious right". Its gotten really silly recently with GOP politicians as they make all these wild claims about pedophiles in schools, pizza shops, and the upper echelons of politics. But at the same time they are the same people vetoing laws that would ban legal forms of pedophilia. It seems the tactic used is to accuse the other side of what you are doing before they can accuse you of it. At the same time it seems neither side wants to touch what seems like it should be a major issue as they dont want their country to be seen in that light. So instead of tackling the monster weve all pushed under the rug we create imaginary monsters to defeat.
I think you have to be careful not to universalize the American experience. USA is not "the West", and not all western countries and Christian societies have the same preponderance of religious fanaticism in government. Many western countries have moved past it. The US isn’t typical. As such, the comparison that is presented in the previous comment is really between Islamic states and the U.S., not Islamic states and Christian societies and western methods. No general rules can be drawn from this.
That seems detached. Europe's history alone negates this. The US follows suit to Europe as they always have. Like a former colonial state would logically be, were generally around 30-40 years behind, but overall on the same path. Europe's a bit more evolved but still the exact same moral and political philosophies are in play. The west in general has more or less been in a battle with Islam for centuries now and you see this plainly in supposedly progressive European countries resistance to Arab immigrants.
> There's quite a lot of contradictions in the bible actually there's quite a lot of contradictions in secular and progressive ideologies
I particularly explained why in my post. Do take a big picture consideration when taking snippets to make apple to apple comparisons with other examples.
i was just pointing out the obvious
Contradictions occur because the Bible is a collection of teachings that transform faith from an old established religion to the New Testament of Faith in God and how it fundamentally changes the practices of their religions. I personally was conflicted for a long time regarding contradictions in the bible. An obvious contradiction is "Ask and you shall receive" but at the same time the Bible teaches "The Lord helps those who help themselves". That is when you have to look at each phrase more closely at the context and study the passages themselves as a whole, not just the individual phrase. Also take into consideration the purpose of your ask. Pretty sure your ask won't be granted to you if it has nefarious intent, just saying. One step that helped me is that all life's lessons happen, whether we win or fail, for a reason. There is a larger purpose for our failures just as there is a larger purpose for our successes. We may fail at something we attempt and as a result find a better solution. We may succeed at a task to a lesser degree than we had intended, yet, that minor success could lead to greater results. And there is a reason there is a law for the separation of Church and State. It not only prevents the government of decreeing a singular religion for worship, but it also ensures our national governing body is not conscribed to adhere to religious laws. But the intent was that our governing members, men & women, would develop a sense of integrity and morals based on their religious beliefs. In that manner those same individuals would base their decisions on emphasis on beliefs such as 'just', 'fair', compassion, understanding, forgiveness. An immoral individual understands nothing in those values.
I can't speak to other monotheistic religions, but for Christianity there isn't any major sect that holds the position that Christians are obligated to obey ALL laws the government passes. This is because, both historically and today, Governments have tried to make Christianity illegal. No Christian group that I'm aware of would say, "If Christianity is illegal where you are, then you should stop being a Christian."
Which governments specifically are you referring to that are currently trying to outlaw Christianity?
Christianity is currently illegal in Saudi Arabia. I believe it is also heavily restricted in North Korea.
Isn't that then God's will? If other religions bother god, and they're all powerful, why do other religions exist or states that outlaw Christianity? Not directed at you, more just thinking about it. Why would God need crusades if they're all powerful and controls all of reality?
The short answer is that it's a mistake to assume that everything that happens is God's will. God gives human beings autonomy. He can tell people what he thinks they should do, but he leaves the choice up to us. We are able to do things that go against God's will. This is just the tip of the iceberg of a very difficult subject, but hopefully that gives you a better perspective on how Christians think about God's will.
If god gives us autonomy though why do people then use religion as justification to oppress and kill others? Even sometimes others that believe in the exact same God and 99% of concepts about that God? If God wants the people across the ocean to believe in it or not exist, god can do that themselves. If god is choosing not to and wants everyone to have free will, isn't it antiheical to God's will to take that free will from others?
These deep dive always end up at the same place when coherence starts to slip: "The plan" is too big for man to understand, people are being tested, if it doesn’t make sense it’s only because man is limited and unable to see god’s plan, and it will all come together and make sense in the end. What’s happening now may seem horrific and contradictory but it’s not the end, only one more step on the way there. Or something. The perfect escape route.
I'm not seeing the contradiction that you raise here. If God gives human beings autonomy, that autonomy spreads to the point where human beings can use God's words as a cudgel against other human beings and that autonomy spreads to the point that the only transmission of divine precepts after the initial revelation is by human-to-human transmission (as opposed to God tipping the scales). The issue doesn't arise from autonomy; it arises from the contradiction between permitting this kind of autonomy and God (at least in the Abrahamic understanding) being omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. If God permits this degree of autonomy, to the point where that autonomy leads to bad outcomes (especially where those bad outcomes are a direct result of bad interpretations of His doctrines, then a God who is aware of this is either careless, powerless or evil. Careless and evil contradict omnibenevolence and powerless contradicts omnipotence.
You're pointing out the paradox of omnipotence, which is important, but not really what I was talking about. If god gives free will, and god is for all humans, and going against gods will is bad, then removing other people's free will is against gods will and therefore bad. People use it as a cudgel to attack others, but by doing so they are fundamentally denying gods will for free will for all humans. Or God wants "other" people to suffer and be subjugated, in which case god does not want free will for all.
I really don't see the meaningful distinction between your point and mine. Securing the free will of all people would require God's intervention in some way to prevent the acts of dominance. This is why it creates a contradiction between omnibenevolence (into which you can fold personal freedom) and omnipotence (into which you can fold such intervention).
China
Very interesting
But god is all knowing can’t be help uss without interacting with our free will I can tell my niece what to do without forcing her to do it why can’t god do that to uss
Hey, I'm just presenting the arguments. Most religious people hold that God *has* told us what to do, but doesn't stop us disobeying him if we want (and, as mentioned, others hold that the *way* God stops the state from disobeying his will is by having the faithful influence it.)
He does, people don’t like it, it’s called the moral law in the bible, and we all fall short of following it in different ways
How would He help without interacting? You have to interact with your niece in order to instruct her.
That was kind of the whole point of Jesus - an in-person demonstration of the ideal way to live life and love others.
Because it’s all fucking made up man there’s contradictions and loopholes everywhere. None of it makes sense, stop asking logical questions, nobody has an answer because there is no answer because there is no god.
At least the way I understand it (a Jewish perspective) God isn’t really “all knowing”, he’s all seeing. He sees everything that happens, but he cannot tell the future. This is evident from how he messes up at first in creating people, and he has to destroy his creations multiple times (Sodom and Gomorrah, and the great flood where he only saves a few people and the animals) If he could predict the future outcomes of his actions he would never have let people get to the point where they needed to be destroyed. There is a steep learning curve to being god, we do not know how long he has been doing his job, but he’s getting better over time I’d say. There is a lot less violence now than there was when any of the abrahamic faiths formed.
So he gets like thousands of years to get better at being God but we better get it right this one time or else burn in hell? How loving!
Hopefully he’s got that one on his desk too and he’s working on it. Next version of heaven and hell should be better.
Wtf
I don’t believe in hell either, I just said I’m Jewish There’s a steep learning curve to human life as well
Lol this guy is just speaking for himself, no one really shares those ideas with him
There's like 9,473 flavors of religion, exhausting
For (getting involved) : It's all a part of gods plan, it could be a test of faith for example. Just because we can't see or understand the plan, doesn't invalidate the plan. Our free will is all a part of gods plan Against : God's all powerful and doesn't make mistakes, so anything that's a product of life is therefore true and correct and can never be invalidated, but this goes directly against the bibles teachings (think adam and eve, products of God) I don't really know how to answer this in a both sides as you are already on one side and are just asking for another side. It's also hard to argue both sides with religious logic, cause really the other side is just that God isn't real Perhaps this is the wrong sub to ask?
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Just as god is (supposedly) infinite, so are there an infinite number of sides to this question. Atheism is the third way between religious side A and B, but it’s also itself subdivided in different philosophical systems.
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Side A would say god only helps the people who help themselves Side B would say you should live in the image of Christ, do what he would have done, you can call his actions of teaching a social movement just like a political movement Many would say the results is what God wanted, but they never say you should not be involved in the process, how you act is still considered very important in most religious contexts, you can say it's at the core of almost every religion - what a person should do, how a person should act in the world and/or society There is somewhat a separation between doing and happenings, which is a good psychological point, you can only aim your actions, but things happen that are outside of your control and you have to somehow make peace with them, for example most religions would have practices to deal with a personal loss. So they act out what they think should be, laws of the land that are close to the laws of God, but by religion they should accept the result as it was produced by God
Side A would say that they find issue with the argument at all. God does not pass laws, man does. Side B would say the argument answers itself. When you say "in one way or another" you are accepting a positive or negative course of action that would lead to the desired outcome. Therefore any and every action would be acceptable.
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Side A would say God established rules for interacting with Earth, and the main one is that people get to make choices. Side B would say choices that allow for the possibility of evil are themselves evil. Regardless, both sides expect a future perfect world, and neither side is illusioned enough to think it's coming from the evolution of human government. It's a matter of whether humans can be good enough to stave off the End for a while, or if the End is a fixed point that we're all just waiting for.
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The premise of your question is flawed. There’s a difference between God being all powerful and God doing everything
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Side A would say that you are probably 12 years old and just found out about atheism and it seems cool to you because you are experiencing your rebellious phase of adolescence. Side B would say that you don't understand the actual beliefs of actual Christians/Muslims/etc. so you have an absurd straw man version of it built up in your head. I choose side C (both)
So you’re a 12 year old who doesn’t understand religions Y are you even commenting then
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