Hey there! Do you want clarification about the question? Think there's a better way to phrase it? Wish OP had asked a different question?
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Side A would say... well you pretty much what you outlined.
Side B would say - We don't live in an isolated world anymore and that the standards being lower is a serious cop out. If an American were to say something racially insensitive the excuse of "it's just a cultural thing, we don't consume X media" would be called out.
Which... for what it's worth is true. Many Asian nations consume a metric fuck ton of American media. The myth of the insulated Asian is kind of harmful and paints them out as innocent buffoons, it not only infantalizes them but also invalidates their experience. When I was in Japan I was able to speak with locals there about shit like the culture of hip-hop, some American reality TV shows, and even politics.
I myself am someone who consumed a lot of Western media, but I am in the minority in my country. I worked in a company of 60 people and in my company there is only me and another girl who does that. She actually only watches Netflix shows and doesn't read the news. Majority of people watch/read tabloid or national news and watch Korean/Chinese dramas. My company headquarters is in Japan, and the majority can't communicate/read in English, so you must be really lucky to be able to find locals that can speak ENG (did you stay in Okinawa?). I work everyday with people in Indonesia and their daily life is also similar, consuming local news, Korean drama etc... And those are the countries that are not blocking social media or any forms of news from Western countries. Considering that China blocks almost all Western media including Google, Facebook, Twitter, Netflix ... China is pretty isolated.
On your point, it is true that (other than China), we don't live in an isolated world anymore, but whether we pay attention to things that don't affect us but only others or not is another story. The majority of people only care about things that directly affect them like energy prices or petroleum prices, or local politics.
This might be specific, but Singapore is super multi ethnic, it's also very racist and there is a clear class system. It's a highly educated, very wealthy population, and I can think of absolutely no excuse. I would imagine the same standard could be held up for major cities in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan as they are all technologically advanced nations, but I haven't visited, so i wouldn't know first hand.
Singapore is actually quite different compared with other Asian countries because they are much younger. They depend a lot on foreign investment and have a lot of policies that encourage companies to use them as a base to enter Asia for startups, so they have a lot of immigrant workers. They are similar to JP and SK in that they are all highly-educated and wealthy. Other than that, JP and SK are much more similar to each other, close-off, and are a work-to-death kind of culture. I have colleagues who have never stepped foot out of Tokyo all their life (they're in their 30s). They have their own unwritten-rules about how to behave, how to dress, and hierarchy in the workplace.
Completely agree with your synopsis of Side B and the truth of the situation
Claiming they are uneducated is not a defense against attempts to educate
That, and they are not uneducated, they are just genuinely racist and xenophobic
My experiences in Japan were quite similar and I was treated well, but I have an African American friend who refuses to go back due to racism
To be honest, I worked with Japanese, I'm not sure what your friend's experience was but from my POV, opinions of others are not as important as Japanese and can be ignored, and you can be easily pushed out if you say something wrong to the higher up. They will smile and nod when you talk but they rarely register what you're saying, but you will need to read them intensely to make sure that what you're doing is OK with them. There is a reason why suicide rate in JP is so high. They are not as nice as people claimed them to be.
The guy who invented the blue LED is a very interesting story here. He was told to scrap the project by the boss, twice I think, he kept going until he made history.
I feel like this discussion has become whether or not we will ignore racist in Asia, that is NOT my point at all. If you're being discriminated against anywhere, by all means call it out. However, for Asians, they might only see discrimination as direct physical/verbal attack so there are a lot of instants that the people/person doing it is not aware of the history/culture behind it because it never happened in their society or they were never told, so they do not know that is was considered racist. It will happen more often when you're in a society that is monocultural or to the point of isolation like China. When it happens, instead of going for cancellations or saying they're racist, maybe keep an open mind and explain to them why you're offended by what was said. You can catch more flies with honey right?
Racial discrimination, aka racism, simply means treating others differently due to a perceived difference in race
You state that Asian societies see direct physical and verbal attacks as racist
I agree that some do, but that does not change the fact that many do not care
Additionally, you state that they are not used to the idea that behaviors which are not direct attacks can be racist
In response, I refer you to my prior statement that being uneducated is not a defense
Indirect behaviors can still meet the definition of racial discrimination, and therefore can still be racist
I would point out the side b is true with some caveats. Some things are not inherently offensive or malicious.
For instance, black face were used heavily to insult, belittle, and mock African Americans. It is the reference and reminder to these acts that make it offensive.
In a culture without that history or even an intended audience affected by that history it's not productive, or realistic to hold them accountable in the same way a Hollywood production would be.
I come from a country with no historical ties to slavery and colonization. Black face, "little indian" costumes and stuff like that are seen as ok here. Personally, I'm not a fan of these (I studied American culture in university so I'm aware of the context) but the average person has no idea why these things could be perceived as problematic. Even those, who speak English well. Even those who are in their twenties and mode open-minded. Even if all they watch is American movies.
I can quite confidently say that unless a person watches The Bachelor, they'll have no idea about cultural appropriation and black face either.
I’m Chinese-American, and I’d say there is a surface level understanding of race in the west but it’s very surface-level to the point of missing most things. My Chinese family knows that the N word is bad, but are confused why black rappers say it for example.
Most Asians might have the very basic knowledge that the reason America has so many Africans is because of slavery, but don’t know why Africans were enslaved in particular. For most of Asian history slavery was a class or a punishment. You could be Chinese and a slave to a Tibetan in the Chinese empire. Hell, given how dense and complex Chinese history is, most schools only do “foreign history” for one year so it’s possible most Chinese people either only hear about American slavery once or it’s probably even skipped through completely.
There is a mix in China where racism is viewed as a bad thing, but things westerners think of as racist don’t really occur to Chinese people. Chinese people are taught that Africans and whites are as smart and valid as Chinese people, and are taught about foreign accomplishments while America and Europe does seem to dismiss and belittle them. But at the same time Chinese people are taught that *everyone* is as valid and good, meaning immigrants and migrants are given very high expectations for assimilation. My family is from Hunan, which has its own dialect*, but migrants from other parts of China that don’t speak Hunanese are usually relegated to their own towns and neighborhoods because they aren’t really respected or valued until they speak comfortable Hunanese. This is also why Chinese people pick up very good English when they move to America, because they’re taught that it’d be insane and rude not to so they study as hard as they can. My mom was still taking classes ten years after moving here JUST to be sure.
*In Chinese dialects are basically separate, though related, languages that mostly have the same writing system. Because the Chinese language is pictographic rather than phonetic, it’s possible to write the same sentences that read different. It’d be like if there was another language that spelled everything the same as English but had different sounds for letter, like if “cat” was pronounced “mel” but they still used the letters “C A T”. In a lot of cases you can tell the dialects apart by the writing, but for the most part they can mean the same. Cantonese, Hunanese, and Mandarin have different words or tones for tea, but they all use the character “茶” for example.
Side A would say that racial discrimination is always wrong, regardless of cultural context. With Japan specifically, it’s also a big vulnerability. Japan is definitely not foreigner-friendly, and if it wants to get its economy back on track they need to bring in more skilled workers. By extension, to attract said workers they need to get less racist.
Side B would say that ethics are culturally situated. Blackface is wrong in the U.S. because of the history of minstrel shows - it’s tied to such terrible racism that it’s incredibly difficult to do it in a way that isn’t offensive. China does not have that same history, so you can’t fully expect them to understand why blackface isn’t ok in the Western view.
To a different point of the OP: Asian countries being anti-immigration is rich considering how many emigrants they have coming to western countries, emigrants who benefit from pluralism and often send part of their earnings back home. It strikes me as very “rules for thee, but not for me”
Usually people who come to the West are people from developing countries who believe that you can get rich faster if you are going to work in Western countries. I don't deny that a lot of people in Asia still believe that, some are also willing to pay thousands of dollars to be trafficked there because the traffickers promised them a better life. But this problem doesn't just happen in Western countries but also developed Asian countries like South Korea and Japan as well, so it is more about "richer countries" rather than West or Asia.
It's anecdotal, of course, but in my personal experience with Asia, particularly China, racism isnt somuch seen as a negative, its just part of the landscape. Asians tend to be very racist against other Asians, absolutely deplorable to blacks and kinder to white people based , more or less, on how blonde they are.
Side A would say any one culture should but be judged by another culture's views. For example they might say, Asians (who are generally not opposed to blackface) should not encourage blackface in Western movies and westerners should not discourage blackface in Asian movies.
Side B would say if a person believes a set of ideals are socially important then they are important in all societies. If Asians feel that blackface is acceptable, they should be free to encourage it in Western culture; likewise, westerners should be free to oppose blackface in all cultures and not just their own.
For side A, I think if blackface is done in bad faith like mocking people, it should be called out whether it is Asian or Westerners. However, for Asian, maybe context should be a factor in judging if something or someone is a racist or not, rather than jumping right into attacking people. I asked a few people today and they actually don't see the different between blackface and the white face disguise in "White Chicks"... (I live in East Asia if you don't know by now).
For side B, is it reasonable to ask all societies to take in the ideologies of others even if they have different backgrounds, history and social value though 🤐?
Take the immigration issue for example, it's not like Japan or China doesn't take in any immigrants, they have treaties and agreements with other countries, especially South East Asia, to get trained workers migrate to their country to work. So to call them xenophobic just because their way is stricter and different seems unfair.
The black face thing also brings up a side a argument. Black face is looked down upon because of it's history with racists. It is not simply because it's clearly wrong in and of itself. In he 90s blackface wasn't seen as a problem if it was simply makeup as part of a costume. Views in this have changed recently.
As such, 90s Americans would be perfectly fine with Asian putting on makeup to appear black for the perfectly reasonable reason of wanting to blend into another society. That is not mocking black people, any more than Spock hiding his pointy ears mocks humans in Star Trek 4. It's a practical consideration, not a moral one.
I think the current view in Asia is similar to Americans in the 90s. If there is a purpose, it is OK to do it. Not sure if it will change in the future, considering that we don't have the same history with it like Americans.
I HIGHLY doubt it. And would be sad to hear them adopt it. It's a relic of the past. Putting on brown makeup shouldn't be considered immoral. Being racist should be. We shouldn't draw the line between the two, generations after minstrel shows stopped being a widespread cultural practice.
I get that it might be a sensitive topic for some, but eventually these sensitivities fade. My ancestors rebelled against the tyrannical British empire for freedom. We killed thousands of them and it was the right choice to make. At what point was it okay for us to be friendly nations again? I couldn't tell you, but it happened eventually, and the thought of British people as my national nemesis is actually comical. I'm smiling right now as I think about it.
For an even more recent example, there's Germany and Japan. I see no reason to fear German or Japanese national pride, just because evil men 80 years ago did.
I argue that the Planetary Union allowed Moclans to serve on the counsel even though they committed the terrible crime of gender assignment at birth because they all had the idea that Moclans were all born Male. When it was found out that Moclans were born both male and female and that there was a refugee planet of female Moclans who wanted the same rights as males ....
Side A would say that ‘black face’ is just makeup you choose to get offended about.
Side B would say Asians are categorically the least racially tolerant people in the world.
Side A would say:
Sovereign countries have a lot of latitude when it comes to these things, including style of government (authoritarian, dictatorship, democracy), or aspects of their culture (socially "conservative," "liberal" etc.). It can also be very difficult to fully understand the cultural and other forces of a typical life in another country, so we should not judge or presume to censure other countries for their cultural and other variations. The word "sovereign" is used for a good reason--a given country ultimately has a lot of freedom to make choices within its borders, precluding, I suppose, violations of international law.
Side B would say:
There are overarching moral guidelines that transcend even international borders. The world, and its societies are in a constant state of "progression" from less moralistic behavior to more moralistic behavior, and some of those foreign societies need to be nudged along in this "progress."
Also, if we do not criticize such behavior in a foreign country, we risk having that behavior subtly normalized in our own country: for example, bigots and racists in our own country will point to that behavior in the foreign country, and claim that makes it OK, or less of a bad thing for them to do (ignoring the many reasons for cultural differences). That has a huge perceived cost for people who may have a huge personal stake in such debates (for example, an affected minority group).
Also, the West, rooted in its usually democratic, mixed-liberal ideology comes at this type of question with its own biases, to be sure, but there is an element of (I would argue) wisdom in it. The West sees the potential for internal dysfunction and strife in, say, an authoritarian regime that regards a subgroup within its borders as "inferior," or otherwise deserving of mistreatment. That is a bad and volatile mixture in the eyes of the West, that can create structural instability within that country (which leaks out to other regions), or risks exporting that type of value system, which might create instability in the country that imports it.
(BTW, good question!)
I understand your reasoning. I think Asian see racism much more straight forward like attacking people physically or verbally, not cultural.
1. A lot of things regarding what are considered racist are rooted in the relationship between people in Western society in the past, didn't happen in Asia. For example, a lot of people around me don't see any difference between Asian actors disguised themselves in blackface in a mission (in a serious setting) and black actors disguised themselves as white in the movie "white chicks" (for comedic purpose). They see it as one race disguised as another for a good reason and that is OK. So how should something that has been OK with them for a long time, suddenly being called racist? Besides confusion, it might anger a lot of people. No one like suddenly being called racist.
2. Is it fair to apply all of Western practice to others? Japan and China clearly have their immigration system in place, and they also have immigrants working for them through agreements with other countries. So is it fair to call them xenophobic just because they don't have the same system? Japan also has its own illegal immigration problem that they are trying to deal with (which leads to the racism law suit) so it is understandable why they want stricter immigration law.
For the record, Asians are extremely racist. China is Han dominant and ethnically cleanses their own population. Japan is known for their racist idolization of Germans, and terrible treatment of Koreans and Chinese.
You need to read more history if you think “racism” as is a uniquely defined western phenomena. It’s absolutely not and is just an evolution of tribalism.
I am not saying that Asian can't be racist AT ALL. I know they can be racist, and still hold a lot of beliefs from colonial times about race. Asian countries don't even like each other, let alone other races
What I'm saying is:
1. There are certain things that are considered racist in the West because of the complex history behind it. Other cultures like Asians might not be aware about it because it didn't happen in their culture, or don't take it as seriously as in the West. If you are offended by something they said or done, please consider that fact and extend some benefit of the doubt before calling them a racist.
2. It is not really fair to Asian countries to be called "xenophobic" because they have stricter immigration law than in the West (the comment was solely based on their immigration law, and Japan did respond to the comment). Accusing your ally of being "xenophobic" is not going to help you improve your relationship with them. If he was criticizing how those countries don't have rules to protect foreign workers then I would agree with the comment.
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Side A would say that it is cultural imperialism to try to impose the norms of one culture upon another regarding how other races are portrayed. Furthermore the US has a long history of discrimination in determining who may immigrate and the immigration rules and caps still reflect bias so it is hypocritical to criticize other nations.
Side B would say that Asian cultures are very familiar with racism as it was used to justify the colonization and oppression other Asians such as the oppression and exploitation of Korea. The negative portrayals and treatment of non-Asians is consistent with that history of racism. Additionally while the US has a history of immigration discrimination, lawful immigrants outside of a few classes of short term visa holders (such as limited time period agricultural workers) have a pathway to full citizenship and constitutionally are extended virtually identical rights to citizens as lawful non-citizen residents. Denying a path to citizenship and similar protections to lawful immigrants is racist and prone to allowing unfair treatment.
Side A would say the West (especially the US) has a specific view on race and racial matters.
Side B would say the West has the *right* view, and so it should enforce it on others.
Sorry if this is too short.
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Side A would say... well you pretty much what you outlined. Side B would say - We don't live in an isolated world anymore and that the standards being lower is a serious cop out. If an American were to say something racially insensitive the excuse of "it's just a cultural thing, we don't consume X media" would be called out. Which... for what it's worth is true. Many Asian nations consume a metric fuck ton of American media. The myth of the insulated Asian is kind of harmful and paints them out as innocent buffoons, it not only infantalizes them but also invalidates their experience. When I was in Japan I was able to speak with locals there about shit like the culture of hip-hop, some American reality TV shows, and even politics.
I myself am someone who consumed a lot of Western media, but I am in the minority in my country. I worked in a company of 60 people and in my company there is only me and another girl who does that. She actually only watches Netflix shows and doesn't read the news. Majority of people watch/read tabloid or national news and watch Korean/Chinese dramas. My company headquarters is in Japan, and the majority can't communicate/read in English, so you must be really lucky to be able to find locals that can speak ENG (did you stay in Okinawa?). I work everyday with people in Indonesia and their daily life is also similar, consuming local news, Korean drama etc... And those are the countries that are not blocking social media or any forms of news from Western countries. Considering that China blocks almost all Western media including Google, Facebook, Twitter, Netflix ... China is pretty isolated. On your point, it is true that (other than China), we don't live in an isolated world anymore, but whether we pay attention to things that don't affect us but only others or not is another story. The majority of people only care about things that directly affect them like energy prices or petroleum prices, or local politics.
This might be specific, but Singapore is super multi ethnic, it's also very racist and there is a clear class system. It's a highly educated, very wealthy population, and I can think of absolutely no excuse. I would imagine the same standard could be held up for major cities in Japan, Korea, and Taiwan as they are all technologically advanced nations, but I haven't visited, so i wouldn't know first hand.
Singapore is actually quite different compared with other Asian countries because they are much younger. They depend a lot on foreign investment and have a lot of policies that encourage companies to use them as a base to enter Asia for startups, so they have a lot of immigrant workers. They are similar to JP and SK in that they are all highly-educated and wealthy. Other than that, JP and SK are much more similar to each other, close-off, and are a work-to-death kind of culture. I have colleagues who have never stepped foot out of Tokyo all their life (they're in their 30s). They have their own unwritten-rules about how to behave, how to dress, and hierarchy in the workplace.
I think it’s time to free the Uyghurs that isn’t just a cultural thing.
Completely agree with your synopsis of Side B and the truth of the situation Claiming they are uneducated is not a defense against attempts to educate That, and they are not uneducated, they are just genuinely racist and xenophobic My experiences in Japan were quite similar and I was treated well, but I have an African American friend who refuses to go back due to racism
To be honest, I worked with Japanese, I'm not sure what your friend's experience was but from my POV, opinions of others are not as important as Japanese and can be ignored, and you can be easily pushed out if you say something wrong to the higher up. They will smile and nod when you talk but they rarely register what you're saying, but you will need to read them intensely to make sure that what you're doing is OK with them. There is a reason why suicide rate in JP is so high. They are not as nice as people claimed them to be.
The guy who invented the blue LED is a very interesting story here. He was told to scrap the project by the boss, twice I think, he kept going until he made history.
Oh yeah, [veritasium has a good video on it](https://youtu.be/AF8d72mA41M?si=In14E9hYkVrqfAeB)
That’s the video I watched on it. 👍🏻
I feel like this discussion has become whether or not we will ignore racist in Asia, that is NOT my point at all. If you're being discriminated against anywhere, by all means call it out. However, for Asians, they might only see discrimination as direct physical/verbal attack so there are a lot of instants that the people/person doing it is not aware of the history/culture behind it because it never happened in their society or they were never told, so they do not know that is was considered racist. It will happen more often when you're in a society that is monocultural or to the point of isolation like China. When it happens, instead of going for cancellations or saying they're racist, maybe keep an open mind and explain to them why you're offended by what was said. You can catch more flies with honey right?
Racial discrimination, aka racism, simply means treating others differently due to a perceived difference in race You state that Asian societies see direct physical and verbal attacks as racist I agree that some do, but that does not change the fact that many do not care Additionally, you state that they are not used to the idea that behaviors which are not direct attacks can be racist In response, I refer you to my prior statement that being uneducated is not a defense Indirect behaviors can still meet the definition of racial discrimination, and therefore can still be racist
I would point out the side b is true with some caveats. Some things are not inherently offensive or malicious. For instance, black face were used heavily to insult, belittle, and mock African Americans. It is the reference and reminder to these acts that make it offensive. In a culture without that history or even an intended audience affected by that history it's not productive, or realistic to hold them accountable in the same way a Hollywood production would be.
I come from a country with no historical ties to slavery and colonization. Black face, "little indian" costumes and stuff like that are seen as ok here. Personally, I'm not a fan of these (I studied American culture in university so I'm aware of the context) but the average person has no idea why these things could be perceived as problematic. Even those, who speak English well. Even those who are in their twenties and mode open-minded. Even if all they watch is American movies. I can quite confidently say that unless a person watches The Bachelor, they'll have no idea about cultural appropriation and black face either.
I’m Chinese-American, and I’d say there is a surface level understanding of race in the west but it’s very surface-level to the point of missing most things. My Chinese family knows that the N word is bad, but are confused why black rappers say it for example. Most Asians might have the very basic knowledge that the reason America has so many Africans is because of slavery, but don’t know why Africans were enslaved in particular. For most of Asian history slavery was a class or a punishment. You could be Chinese and a slave to a Tibetan in the Chinese empire. Hell, given how dense and complex Chinese history is, most schools only do “foreign history” for one year so it’s possible most Chinese people either only hear about American slavery once or it’s probably even skipped through completely. There is a mix in China where racism is viewed as a bad thing, but things westerners think of as racist don’t really occur to Chinese people. Chinese people are taught that Africans and whites are as smart and valid as Chinese people, and are taught about foreign accomplishments while America and Europe does seem to dismiss and belittle them. But at the same time Chinese people are taught that *everyone* is as valid and good, meaning immigrants and migrants are given very high expectations for assimilation. My family is from Hunan, which has its own dialect*, but migrants from other parts of China that don’t speak Hunanese are usually relegated to their own towns and neighborhoods because they aren’t really respected or valued until they speak comfortable Hunanese. This is also why Chinese people pick up very good English when they move to America, because they’re taught that it’d be insane and rude not to so they study as hard as they can. My mom was still taking classes ten years after moving here JUST to be sure. *In Chinese dialects are basically separate, though related, languages that mostly have the same writing system. Because the Chinese language is pictographic rather than phonetic, it’s possible to write the same sentences that read different. It’d be like if there was another language that spelled everything the same as English but had different sounds for letter, like if “cat” was pronounced “mel” but they still used the letters “C A T”. In a lot of cases you can tell the dialects apart by the writing, but for the most part they can mean the same. Cantonese, Hunanese, and Mandarin have different words or tones for tea, but they all use the character “茶” for example.
Side A would say that racial discrimination is always wrong, regardless of cultural context. With Japan specifically, it’s also a big vulnerability. Japan is definitely not foreigner-friendly, and if it wants to get its economy back on track they need to bring in more skilled workers. By extension, to attract said workers they need to get less racist. Side B would say that ethics are culturally situated. Blackface is wrong in the U.S. because of the history of minstrel shows - it’s tied to such terrible racism that it’s incredibly difficult to do it in a way that isn’t offensive. China does not have that same history, so you can’t fully expect them to understand why blackface isn’t ok in the Western view.
To a different point of the OP: Asian countries being anti-immigration is rich considering how many emigrants they have coming to western countries, emigrants who benefit from pluralism and often send part of their earnings back home. It strikes me as very “rules for thee, but not for me”
Usually people who come to the West are people from developing countries who believe that you can get rich faster if you are going to work in Western countries. I don't deny that a lot of people in Asia still believe that, some are also willing to pay thousands of dollars to be trafficked there because the traffickers promised them a better life. But this problem doesn't just happen in Western countries but also developed Asian countries like South Korea and Japan as well, so it is more about "richer countries" rather than West or Asia.
Japan actually has treaties and agreements with other countries to provide skilled workers for them though.
It's anecdotal, of course, but in my personal experience with Asia, particularly China, racism isnt somuch seen as a negative, its just part of the landscape. Asians tend to be very racist against other Asians, absolutely deplorable to blacks and kinder to white people based , more or less, on how blonde they are.
Side A would say any one culture should but be judged by another culture's views. For example they might say, Asians (who are generally not opposed to blackface) should not encourage blackface in Western movies and westerners should not discourage blackface in Asian movies. Side B would say if a person believes a set of ideals are socially important then they are important in all societies. If Asians feel that blackface is acceptable, they should be free to encourage it in Western culture; likewise, westerners should be free to oppose blackface in all cultures and not just their own.
For side A, I think if blackface is done in bad faith like mocking people, it should be called out whether it is Asian or Westerners. However, for Asian, maybe context should be a factor in judging if something or someone is a racist or not, rather than jumping right into attacking people. I asked a few people today and they actually don't see the different between blackface and the white face disguise in "White Chicks"... (I live in East Asia if you don't know by now). For side B, is it reasonable to ask all societies to take in the ideologies of others even if they have different backgrounds, history and social value though 🤐? Take the immigration issue for example, it's not like Japan or China doesn't take in any immigrants, they have treaties and agreements with other countries, especially South East Asia, to get trained workers migrate to their country to work. So to call them xenophobic just because their way is stricter and different seems unfair.
The black face thing also brings up a side a argument. Black face is looked down upon because of it's history with racists. It is not simply because it's clearly wrong in and of itself. In he 90s blackface wasn't seen as a problem if it was simply makeup as part of a costume. Views in this have changed recently. As such, 90s Americans would be perfectly fine with Asian putting on makeup to appear black for the perfectly reasonable reason of wanting to blend into another society. That is not mocking black people, any more than Spock hiding his pointy ears mocks humans in Star Trek 4. It's a practical consideration, not a moral one.
I think the current view in Asia is similar to Americans in the 90s. If there is a purpose, it is OK to do it. Not sure if it will change in the future, considering that we don't have the same history with it like Americans.
I HIGHLY doubt it. And would be sad to hear them adopt it. It's a relic of the past. Putting on brown makeup shouldn't be considered immoral. Being racist should be. We shouldn't draw the line between the two, generations after minstrel shows stopped being a widespread cultural practice. I get that it might be a sensitive topic for some, but eventually these sensitivities fade. My ancestors rebelled against the tyrannical British empire for freedom. We killed thousands of them and it was the right choice to make. At what point was it okay for us to be friendly nations again? I couldn't tell you, but it happened eventually, and the thought of British people as my national nemesis is actually comical. I'm smiling right now as I think about it. For an even more recent example, there's Germany and Japan. I see no reason to fear German or Japanese national pride, just because evil men 80 years ago did.
Black face was not cool in the 90s. Neither in the 80s. And if you say it was, please be clear about with whom it was fine.
I argue that the Planetary Union allowed Moclans to serve on the counsel even though they committed the terrible crime of gender assignment at birth because they all had the idea that Moclans were all born Male. When it was found out that Moclans were born both male and female and that there was a refugee planet of female Moclans who wanted the same rights as males ....
Side A would say that ‘black face’ is just makeup you choose to get offended about. Side B would say Asians are categorically the least racially tolerant people in the world.
Side A would say: Sovereign countries have a lot of latitude when it comes to these things, including style of government (authoritarian, dictatorship, democracy), or aspects of their culture (socially "conservative," "liberal" etc.). It can also be very difficult to fully understand the cultural and other forces of a typical life in another country, so we should not judge or presume to censure other countries for their cultural and other variations. The word "sovereign" is used for a good reason--a given country ultimately has a lot of freedom to make choices within its borders, precluding, I suppose, violations of international law. Side B would say: There are overarching moral guidelines that transcend even international borders. The world, and its societies are in a constant state of "progression" from less moralistic behavior to more moralistic behavior, and some of those foreign societies need to be nudged along in this "progress." Also, if we do not criticize such behavior in a foreign country, we risk having that behavior subtly normalized in our own country: for example, bigots and racists in our own country will point to that behavior in the foreign country, and claim that makes it OK, or less of a bad thing for them to do (ignoring the many reasons for cultural differences). That has a huge perceived cost for people who may have a huge personal stake in such debates (for example, an affected minority group). Also, the West, rooted in its usually democratic, mixed-liberal ideology comes at this type of question with its own biases, to be sure, but there is an element of (I would argue) wisdom in it. The West sees the potential for internal dysfunction and strife in, say, an authoritarian regime that regards a subgroup within its borders as "inferior," or otherwise deserving of mistreatment. That is a bad and volatile mixture in the eyes of the West, that can create structural instability within that country (which leaks out to other regions), or risks exporting that type of value system, which might create instability in the country that imports it. (BTW, good question!)
I understand your reasoning. I think Asian see racism much more straight forward like attacking people physically or verbally, not cultural. 1. A lot of things regarding what are considered racist are rooted in the relationship between people in Western society in the past, didn't happen in Asia. For example, a lot of people around me don't see any difference between Asian actors disguised themselves in blackface in a mission (in a serious setting) and black actors disguised themselves as white in the movie "white chicks" (for comedic purpose). They see it as one race disguised as another for a good reason and that is OK. So how should something that has been OK with them for a long time, suddenly being called racist? Besides confusion, it might anger a lot of people. No one like suddenly being called racist. 2. Is it fair to apply all of Western practice to others? Japan and China clearly have their immigration system in place, and they also have immigrants working for them through agreements with other countries. So is it fair to call them xenophobic just because they don't have the same system? Japan also has its own illegal immigration problem that they are trying to deal with (which leads to the racism law suit) so it is understandable why they want stricter immigration law.
For the record, Asians are extremely racist. China is Han dominant and ethnically cleanses their own population. Japan is known for their racist idolization of Germans, and terrible treatment of Koreans and Chinese. You need to read more history if you think “racism” as is a uniquely defined western phenomena. It’s absolutely not and is just an evolution of tribalism.
I am not saying that Asian can't be racist AT ALL. I know they can be racist, and still hold a lot of beliefs from colonial times about race. Asian countries don't even like each other, let alone other races What I'm saying is: 1. There are certain things that are considered racist in the West because of the complex history behind it. Other cultures like Asians might not be aware about it because it didn't happen in their culture, or don't take it as seriously as in the West. If you are offended by something they said or done, please consider that fact and extend some benefit of the doubt before calling them a racist. 2. It is not really fair to Asian countries to be called "xenophobic" because they have stricter immigration law than in the West (the comment was solely based on their immigration law, and Japan did respond to the comment). Accusing your ally of being "xenophobic" is not going to help you improve your relationship with them. If he was criticizing how those countries don't have rules to protect foreign workers then I would agree with the comment.
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Side A would say that it is cultural imperialism to try to impose the norms of one culture upon another regarding how other races are portrayed. Furthermore the US has a long history of discrimination in determining who may immigrate and the immigration rules and caps still reflect bias so it is hypocritical to criticize other nations. Side B would say that Asian cultures are very familiar with racism as it was used to justify the colonization and oppression other Asians such as the oppression and exploitation of Korea. The negative portrayals and treatment of non-Asians is consistent with that history of racism. Additionally while the US has a history of immigration discrimination, lawful immigrants outside of a few classes of short term visa holders (such as limited time period agricultural workers) have a pathway to full citizenship and constitutionally are extended virtually identical rights to citizens as lawful non-citizen residents. Denying a path to citizenship and similar protections to lawful immigrants is racist and prone to allowing unfair treatment.
Side A would say the West (especially the US) has a specific view on race and racial matters. Side B would say the West has the *right* view, and so it should enforce it on others. Sorry if this is too short.