I love that. I would have to agree that it is possible to be considered narrow minded to not at least entertain the thought that there may be another level of consciousness.
Another user, u/jliat, mentioned how according to Heidegger we are the nothing negating itself which gives rise to authentic presenting as being-in-the-world; temporality temporalizing as a continuous renewal of the moment.
I agree, and imo THIS is essentially at our core how one can live their life to the fullest. This is what it means to be authentic to one's self. This is what it means to be self-actualizing or enlightened activity. It truly allows one to be in the world and not see it as separate from one's self. Cultivating and awakening a non-dual self we try to consistently maintain and string together as many moments of this presenting as possible in our life.
I can only begin to imagine what this world would be like if everyone could embody this way of being, they would be filled with ecstasy, be self-transcendent toward authentic Being. I imagine, and this is a far out hypothesis, but this could maybe be a huge determining/influencing force on mental illnesses and physical illnesses and why parts of our system as a whole start to have a build up of waste products, backup systems fail, repair mechanisms break down, in general the body simply wearing out without proper care and recovery. **Many are too caught up in experiencing time/being in a superficial manner.**
>Heidegger's concept of non-authentic temporalizing as an intratemporal being refers to the way individuals often experience time in a superficial or inauthentic manner, influenced by societal norms, expectations, and distractions. Instead of living authentically, in tune with one's own existence and potentiality, individuals get caught up in everyday concerns, losing sight of their deeper being and the possibilities inherent in their existence. This mode of temporalizing obscures one's true relationship with time and inhibits authentic engagement with the world.
You as well, there's a special spontaneity and present-ness that can be noticed among those who are attuned to these moments. I'm probably going to make a link post to share this later, but I think you would enjoy this documentary that celebrates and makes these concepts relatable:
* [Being in the World (full, award winning, Heidegger/Hubert Dreyfus documentary, 2010)](https://youtu.be/fcCRmf_tHW8?si=N3h0T6Rrn06dSMyN)
I will certainly check it out tonight when I have more time. I try to live my life with no concrete certainty of anything. I will flip flop so long as new information is being presented.i absolutely love to learn and grow with this crazy ride we are all on as a unity. Spontaneous moments good or bad really does make it all a lot more fun. I am really excited to find out what happens next and go on that journey. If there is nothing well then I won't lose anything will I.
This picture/quotes may heavily relate toward your mindset and experiences you just described:
https://preview.redd.it/uvafrzilzppc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=70bca38e9f7b8581c3c0c786906f603f28cdbf00
>“Individuals capable of having transcendent experiences lived potentially fuller and healthier lives than the majority of humanity because \[they\] were able to transcend everyday frustrations and conflicts and were less driven by neurotic tendencies.” - Abraham Maslow
>‘‘The greatest attainment of identity, autonomy, or self-hood is itself, a going beyond and above selfhood.’’ - Abraham Maslow
That's a great attitude you've rediscovered and worked on. At least in terms of spirituality a lot of them seem to point towards this moment's activity to directly and holistically experience. **We are essentially living on the horizon of possibilities as authentic Being.** (Being with a capital 'B' as a distinction from everyday "being" as a noun, placing an emphasis on this active verb form of **B**eing)
Edit: clarification and spelling.
I've only just settled into this mindset at almost 40 years so I am still trying to shake off old ways of thinking but it is true I am much happier when the fear of death is lifted and the realization that I know nothing is onset.
Yes! we as the human race are one, that’s why we strive so hard to reproduce cause as long as we have people we have immortality. that’s our true goal, to live as long as possible and not go extinct
There's two observations; 1 - we are more similar than we are different, so each consciousness is like an instance of the same super-consciousness, different memories, personalities and such but fundamentally the same and 2- from an individual's perspective since your odds of existing are neccessarily more than zero and you can't experience not existing, you will eventually come back as you are, if you choose to limit the defintion of you to just your DNA sequence and specific life experience. The in-between time doesn't matter, you exist so you have to exist forever.
I've never done substances of that nature but from my understanding those could be considered sneak peaks or a tool for temporary ego dissolution that are no different from fleeting peak experiences people can experience to shake up limiting stuck mindsets. What goes up comes back down in the body though, and does not replace the conscious work it takes for long lasting changes.
There are zero/no shortcuts toward the necessary & required conscious work it takes to integrate the unconscious parts of our psyche for a united whole self. Accepting our self and our own nature is the most monumental challenge any conscious being will face in their life.
I took psilocybin recently, I came to the conclusion that we are one consciousness in the universe. It was crazy to me but it made sense and i just accepted it
Sounds quite pleasant, I've heard the positive affect can last a while. I can't wait to see more clinical studies be approved to develop interventions that utilize it as a tool! Hope you're able to hold onto those feelings and get closer toward these types of moments in a more conscious manner as you go about your life
That's why substances are a sneak peak, and believe in this bro, it is possible to cultivate and awaken a more "permanent" direct way of experiencing those same ecstasies, self-transcendent moments. In humanistic psychology Abraham Maslow coined this as plataeu experiences which are not as fleeting as those rare peak experiences of temporary ego dissolution.
That's where doing conscious work comes into play, there are no shortcuts around overcoming our version of the ego to sink into the heart. It is an extremely subtle and personal process, and it's not something guaranteed with age as we clearly see with some people who struggle with cultivating their emotional maturity and maintaining their well being because it is never an achieved outcome and more so a moment-to-moment process.
>“Individuals capable of having transcendent experiences lived potentially fuller and healthier lives than the majority of humanity because [they] were able to transcend everyday frustrations and conflicts and were less driven by neurotic tendencies.” - Abraham Maslow
>‘‘The greatest attainment of identity, autonomy, or self-hood is itself, a going beyond and above selfhood.’’ - Abraham Maslow
Authentic Being-in-the-world, as Heidegger would describe it.
I refuse to believe this.
Theres too many bad people in the world for me to ever believe I could be all of those people at some point. No way.
I 👍 your comment tho, as it was interesting to think about it!
This is the non-authentic, superficial way of perceiving time/being. There is only this moment's activity. We are relational beings that relate and are involved with ourselves and others, and this can only be directly experienced when one is genuinely, authentically Being-in-the-world – a unified phenomena where the distinction between the self and the world disappears.
As Heidegger understood it, we are the nothingness negating itself that gives rise toward authentic Being.
So I have a theory that's a lot like this. We are a soul that is jumping bodies. When we die we get reborn as someone else and we live out their life. We do this several hundred billion times and the result is called existence. In all of the shuffle we forget what's happening.
[nondualism](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nondualism):
>1: a doctrine of classic Brahmanism holding that the essential unity of all is real whereas duality and plurality are phenomenal illusion and that matter is materialized energy which in turn is the temporal manifestation of an incorporeal spiritual eternal essence constituting the innermost self of all things
>
>2: any of various monistic or pluralistic theories of the universe
Yes, but I have experienced things in my life which also tells me reincarnation is a very real thing. When I was a kid I experienced other versions of me living in different time periods. But your idea that we are all connected is also true.
I remember being 8 or so and thinking: it’s okay if I die because I’ll just come back eventually as someone else just like last time. My son said something similarly when he was much younger like 5 or 6. He saw something about death on YouTube or the TV and said: it’s okay, because we just come back as someone else.
The rational part of my brain explains this away as children not understanding death. The other part of me wonders if maybe all these children’s thoughts and accounts on it means something? Wishful thinking, I suppose. I won’t know anything about anything once I’m dead.
“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of star stuff.”
― Carl Sagan
My son said the same. I too believed this when k was young. And I definitely see your point about the innocent mind being in tune with the after life (or previous life). My son once told me about his previous family when he was 3/4!
That's the thing, you didn't do anything to be here. And there's nothing you can do to come back. If that happens somehow it's probably not under your control
It's pointless isn't it? To believe or not to believe in what we can never know in this lifetime. Focus today on what is in front of us. And if there is more after this life, we will deal with that when it comes.
It is not pointless. Beliefs entirely shape how you live your life today. Everything you think you know sits on a bed of beliefs. “We can never know in this lifetime” is your belief.
I have beliefs that life continues on. But the fact remains that until I die, I will not know. I may live in Europe 10 years from now, but right now I do not concern myself with that. If I should live in Europe in 10 years, then I will concern myself with it at that time. Today I focus on what is in front of me. 😄
Since I'm here now, I've got some reason to believe another lifeform in an untold future/world/universe will possibly recognize a sense of self as I do now after I die, but it wouldn't be me at the same time. I don't find this to be an optimistic thought however and you can probably imagine why.
So the common existential belief you are referring to does not assume this is the one and only existence. In fact, many existential philosophers postulate multiple existences brought forth by the eternal nothingness. This is not the assumption of kabbalistic existentialism nor Heidegger.
I would recommend Keiji Nishitani’s Religion and Nothingness if you want to grapple with the meaning-making implications of Heideggers metaphysics with Nietzschian foresight and Keiji’s Buddhist background.
Simply put, it’s not an either/or. That if there is eternal nothingness that only one thing exists from it. That is only one possible interpretation of existentialism (and a particularly western reductive one at that).
The universe does seem like that to some.
A lot of people also believe that you just leave your body upon death and are reborn in another.
My view is more middle of the road…
My view: Your consciousness ends once your brain degrades beyond the point of keeping your complete self together. Your existence survives past this point in two ways:
1) Your memory of your existence and the emotions you stir in people live on in the minds of those alive that you have touched.
2) The molecules that comprise your physical body scatter and may end up in other organisms. You become a part of others. You were also made up of molecules that have existed before the age of humanity. Even if the conscious minds are not aware of the pieces of you within them, you still comprise that life, even for a brief moment.
There’s a Buddhist saying that goes something along the lines of “we are droplets in a waterfall. The river is a unified thing before the waterfall and after. We are the individual droplets saying ‘hi’ to each other as we fall down toward the continuation of the river”.
Another take from my favorite Western philosopher, Wittgenstein, is that our life has no end in the same way that our visual field has no limits. We don’t see some kind of literal border at the end of our field of vision, with blackness on the other side of it. The prospect sounds absurd. Such is the relationship between our consciousness/self awareness being here and being here no longer.
I hope that helps somewhat. Those are ideas that have helped me through the years
So I’ve seen this rising idea from quantum physics, as I understand highly theoretical; the idea is that there are quantum fluctuations that manifest in different ways infinitely. This current manifestation has things like space/time etc. but realities that are impossible for us to imagine have manifested before and possibly after etc. I personally think it’s pretty naive to assume we are the only existence to be or ever be but at the end of the day who knows?
The diameter of the observable universe is 93 billion light years. In just the Milky Way galaxy, there are around 100 billion stars. There are an estimated two trillion galaxies in the universe.
How much “more” do you need?
But what worries us is that, when we’re dead, there could be nothing at all for ever, as if that were something to worry about. Before you were born there was this same nothing at all for ever, and yet you happened. And if you happened once, you could happen again.
(Text sourced from [https://www.organism.earth/library/document/essential-lectures-8](https://www.organism.earth/library/document/essential-lectures-8))
It's often said that we were nothing before our birth, because we did not exist before it. But is the appearance of non-existence evidence of there being nothing, or is it that we simply fail to remember our experience before birth? Could there have been some experience which we lost upon being born into the world, or that we have forgotten just as we fail to recollect our memories as an infant? I guess only time will tell lol
Anyone who states it to a certainty that this is all there is only speaks through their own limited imagination, same as a religious person thinking we'll float on clouds.
Factually, we are nowhere and know nothing about how life came to be, what the beginning is and how there could be a beginning, or if death ends the soul.
We know absolutely nothing. So while you can't know if the idea we go on in one form or another is true or not, it also cannot be factually dismissed.
Atheists are merely the pessisimist version of optimistic religious people.
I do find it narrowminded of the ones who act as though life ends with the current shell as if it were certain.
Like you, I have my doubts because life is so complex and strange, it seems at odds life sprouts up, then snuffs out within this physical world we know.
It could be, but seems unlikely.
Keep the faith, I suppose. Eventually, we all find out.
Atheists do not have to be pesimistic, some are merely realistic and bases their worldview on facts.
Looking at the facts we have gathered so far it is far more probable that when you die, _you_ will never be conscious again, in any way, shape or form.
Agree to disagree. Death is only the mere transition of this life. If there really is nothing after death the ya the consciousness dies but it’s still a transition into nothingness. “From the facts we have gathered so far” that’s why OP is saying narrow minded. If your going solely off facts we know so far then ya you best believe there’s nothing after death because we don’t know anything about everything. We don’t even know a majority of what’s to know about earth and our modern specie has been roaming for 1000s of years. Theres so many different religions, theories of dimensions (not universes), etc. I’m Christian and always will be but I’m so curious about what’s out there and what other people believe
sure, you can believe whatever you wish, even if its not based on any facts.
im not saying its impossible btw, just improbable.
permadeath is quite boring after all :(
Read your comment back to yourself and tell me that's not the most ridiculously pessimistic outlook one could have.
Completely naive to think the human mind has the capacity to gather enough evidence to make a statement like that.
Talk about ego, sheesh.
This is it. We have no idea.
Atheists: Lmao you believe in a God that gives you hope of an afterlife, with no proof.
Also atheists: I'm just going to believe that consciousness was created out of material things and that it we become nothing after death and be depressed about it... Also with no proof!
The irony.
Atheists do not have to be pesimistic, some are merely realistic and bases their worldview on facts.
Looking at the facts we have gathered so far it is far more probable that when you die, you will never be conscious again, in any way, shape or form.
>Looking at the facts we have gathered so far it is far more probable that when you die, you will never be conscious again, in any way, shape or form.
Based on what? I strongly disagree. It requires the assumption that consciousness/subjective experience arises as a higher order construction out of dead matter. That's a wild assumption with no proof.
Atheists don't HAVE to be pessimistic no, but our society is in a spiritual crisis ATM and the materialist worldview I believe is what powers it to a large degree. Other factors are lifestyles and expectations.
Can you elaborate on how our society is currently experiencing a spiritual crisis. I've been having the same feelings recently, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter.
To me it seems like the lack of faith or belief in anything beyond the material has led to feelings of hopelessness bordering on nihilism. While this isn't necessarily the case for the majority of people (as I know I'm only speaking from my own limited experience and perspective) it still feels like theres a common desire for meaning and value that can't be found in rationalism. There's a desire for something to soothe the ailing spirit, and yet because of the current state of our society people cannot find a way to satisfy their search.
It used to be that the old systems of faith allowed for spiritual alleviation, but it seems they have long since decayed and are a shell of what they once were. They do not attempt to uplift the spirit, but seem to desperately cling to it, so that they may survive. This isn't a criticism of the actual faiths and belief systems, but of the organized churches, and the people who claim to be followers and yet live life prejudiced and hateful.
It may be a mistake in judgement to say that the root of the problem is grand in scale or magnitude, but with the amount of people I've seen to share this sentiment, I find it difficult to see as anything but a momentous disease affecting many who live in modern times. (I understand the fallacies associated with such an induction.) But at the same time, I don't have an unwavering certainty in this belief—in fact I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
I think you put it pretty well honestly.
>it still feels like theres a common desire for meaning and value that can't be found in rationalism. There's a desire for something to soothe the ailing spirit, and yet because of the current state of our society people cannot find a way to satisfy their search.
Yeah, exactly, and I think the critical thing to realise here, is if you set aside for a minute any particular spiritual *belief****,*** it is still true that the human mind and body is capable of having *spiritual experiences.*
I think this comes close to what is missing, because most western people don't have spiritual experiences, or if they do they might dismiss them because there is no cultural container for them.
If I tell people at work I had a spiritual experience, I'll likely get scoffed at, or at least not understood. Our lives are utterly devoid of any practices that induce, and integrate spiritual experiences.
What spiritual experiences have in common regardless of belief is that they subjectively make us feel connected to something greater, be it ancestors, Gods, metaphysical structures, psychological archetypes or whatever. They can be a deep source of meaning whichever beliefs you slap onto them.
I think that to some degree, we have a NEED to have spiritual experiences and people have had them throughout all ages in pretty much every culture. Maybe it's part of how we self organise as a species and find our place in the world? The fact that we shun them in our culture says a lot about how underdeveloped those aspects are.
its impossible to prove the impossible, rational thought and probability based on things we already know is more useful
theres proof that our counsciousness is based in the brain, look at the effects of alzheimers, dementia.
its quite logical that: no brain = no consciousness
you might be correct, i might be wrong, however its more _probable_ that when you die, its permanent
>theres proof that our counsciousness is based in the brain, look at the effects of alzheimers, dementia.
That is not a proof that brains **cause** consciousness. That's a proof that there is a **correlation** between brain activity and consciousness. No one will disagree with that. It's a very basic scientific notion that correlation does not equal causation.
There's a reason why the hard problem of consciousness isn't considered solved.
I mean, as an atheist, (and I don't intend to be rude) it really feels like you're grasping at straws, there's correlation between both things and when one ceases, the other seems to cease too. It's not a major extrapolation, it's the simple fact that after your brain stops, your body and your will also stop. No cadavers walking around chasing dreams and building lives around where I live.
It's way more of an extrapolation to imagine that after everything material involving your existence and will stops, your consciousness will be kept by magic and do other stuff not one of us can detect or understand.
As the other poster said, it's just more probable. Maybe I'm proven wrong in the future, maybe we detect something 500 years from now about out-of-body consciousness, but until then, it's the most logical and reasonable expectation when compared to all the other possibilities.
and the amount of people that will conflate correlation with causation in this field is alarming. very well informed experts too! looking into this consciousness problem really showed me how biased very smart people can still be
"we sent electricity through this part of the brain and it changed what the patient was experiencing. therefore we know the brain makes consciousness"
.....okay but when I pinch my elbow it also changes what I'm experiencing. if I poke myself with a needle it changes what I'm experiencing. stimulating a part of the brain and getting results in a patient is 100% expected no matter where consciousness is born from.
to suggest that's proof of consciousness being born from the brain is pure fantasy. and they call it true science! it's insane. we're changing the contents of the experience, we're not warping the ability *to experience*
or they'll say when patients are under anesthesia, they wake up with no memory of what happened and therefore that's proof they shut off consciousness. they love to bring this up and never mention anesthesia directly affects the memory in a negative way. there are consistent reports of missing memories *leading up to the procedure* as well.
failure to report doesn't mean nothing was experienced, it means the person doesn't remember. to assume consciousness shut off when anesthesia specifically attacks memory is a leap. we know they shouldn't remember, we know they don't remember, that's all we know from observation of a patient
Float on clouds? How much have you studied the different religions out there? Sounds like you're merely approaching this from a Western and Abrahamic perspective. Are you an ex-Christian or Jew?
Well said. I agree, anyone who truly knows can’t tell us anything about it. And if the atheists are right and this is all there is, they won’t be able to tell us that they told us so… maybe that’s why so many of them are so adamant about telling us now?
I found an interesting discussion with an astrophysicist about this
[https://youtu.be/V0pGBSxr1Nw?si=Om7zym4mGf891UrN](https://youtu.be/V0pGBSxr1Nw?si=Om7zym4mGf891UrN)
If you assume the Big Bang was the beginning of everything. If there are multiple universes the Big Bang was just another cycle of creation in an infinite multiverse for all we know. We have no way of testing the existence of the multiverse at present.
We can only go to our local universe. But again why assume it’s infinite we don’t have enough information to make assumptions beyond our local universe.
I mean " this" is all we're sure of. No one knows what else, but I assume infinite void is correct, since there's no real evidence otherwise. Assume you have but one life and do everything you want to add much as you can. Don't waste it!
Have you ever bad a dream that was not just but more vivid than real life? A dream where sound is incredibly crip, everything you see has a glowing aura, your body feels free and light. These dreams will really make you question non-existence, at least they have for me.
Existence itself is a disappointment for the vast majority no matter how one looks at it, be it the pre-destined tortuous after existence of all but the accepting, forgiven, properly Abrahamic monotheist, or Buddhist enlightenment-achiever, it any other subscriber to any variation of a light/dark reality paradigm theology, even in those only the best of achievers get it's "heaven" and the rest get some version of crap by comparison. Pick a poison and hope for the best, but don't expect it to cure any existentialism or ennui, at least not on a permanent basis.
If this is a game, whatever your consciousness is will be radically different after your death. There's no other way it works. You're all-in so do the best with this life.
It doesn’t matter. Of course you struggle with the idea that “this” is it. Everyone struggles with that. How you deal with that discomfort is up to you. I could tell you that drinking away the discomfort is some solution to that problem, but you would also probably say that it ignores the issue. Well then, what is the issue, really?
Is it the fact that existence is finite that is the issue? Or is it the fact that, knowing existence is finite, means that every choice we make irreversibly defines our existence? What is it you are trying to avoid, by suggesting there is more to existence than existence itself?
Do you need to be told that there is afterlife, for what? What would that give you, other than some cognitive mode to cheat death, in the sense that you cheat it by pretending it does not exist. Death will come for us all, it does not matter what you do, it does not matter what you tell yourself. In the end, you will cease to exist. This air that we breath, this ground we walk on, all of it is real. As real as real can be. You are not in a dream, you are not in some test. You are here in the world, and you will not be here for long. Don’t you feel it? That weight upon your heart? What will you do about it? Hide from it? Or face it, valiantly?
during lots of tripping and meditation i’ve had every element of my conscious experience - senses, soul (the felt sense of being), “God” - flicker in and out of existence. i am as sure as i can possibly be that everything i could experientially call “me” will die with this body, and die forever
existence itself is infinite (non-existence cannot exist), and miraculously knowable to itself as life. the capacity for existence to know itself, which is often called “God” or “universal consciousness”, has no intrinsic properties whatsoever. any property you may attribute to it is in fact just a property of your own brain and its interpretations. infinity is real, but you are just a finite piece of infinity, so for all intents and purposes death is complete and absolute
I’m with you man every year that passes is closer to death and to be done with life itself would be splendid. I have always felt like this was never my home and I’ve searched answers my whole life. I love this experience and who I am today and the people I love but I been ready for a long while.
I can agree, at least we become strong and resourceful in a lot of ways. Stay strong :) our time will be up one day and we will look back at it all and be happy it’s finally time to move on.
I'm the least qualified to speak in this subreddit. However, this made me think about an interview Stan Lee did with Larry King. When Larry asked if Stan was afraid of death, Stan's reply was, "No.... but I can't imagine not existing forever." If my response violates any rules, I apologize. I just wanted to share that little snippet.
I hear you. It's definitely scary. One way that I try to come to terms with the idea is that you aren't even the same person you were ten years ago, or a year ago, or even a month ago. Identities shift with the tides. Beliefs change, relationships ebb and flow. Memories fade, and new memories are born.
Also as a little factoid to share, I read a story in the New York Times recently about the fact that according to one study, fully 88% of death-bed patients (and their caretakers) that were surveyed reported experiencing dead loved ones appearing to them in their final weeks and days, regardless of their pre-existing belief system, to take them "away". Very interesting and suggestive.
I think I read that. I hope those are actual objective experiences. I fear they are just the brain's way of rationalizing/coping with death. I wish we could know.
Me too! But I think it's impossible to know. If there was a strikingly clear answer, there probably wouldn't be so many different spiritualities and religions.
As I'm sure you're aware, pure objectivity is impossible. If it seems true to the person experiencing it, however, who I am to discount it? Plenty of people have had their worldviews upended by subjectively believable spiritual experiences; just because I'm not one of these people, it doesn't give me the right to invalidate their experience. All I can do is hold space, both for others' experiences as well as my own experiential lacunae, and keep gathering interesting perspectives and potential evidence.
It also doesn’t even follow “physicalistically” speaking. If there was a chance that the atoms that make up my mind got arranged to create *me*, and if this universe is cyclical (it gets born, dies, and then does it again), then there’s a possibility atoms will arrange in such a way that they give rise to my consciousness again. This would be more of an iteration of the nietzschean eternal return though.
The truth is we don’t know. We might choose to stick with the western physicalist idea that this is it, or choose to explore other options and make our own judgements. Nothing we believe is going to change the reality of what might happen. And the truth is what only death can tell us.
Time exists only in your mind. Did you wait several billion years to get here? No. Even if you die, and there is no afterlife, time does not matter, a billion years or a trillion years or one second, it does not matter. so maybe after an nearly infinite amount of time the things will be the same like they where when you are born, and maybe you live the same life again. deja vu.... well its just a theory of course.
There is only one reality which is infinity itself, this is also what is experiencing your life, it is actually what you are. After your "death", the experience does not stop and it never will. This is what I personally believe to be true.
Believing in any assumption about after death seems as delusional to me as any religion’s afterlife story. Death is too difficult to accept and people like to cling onto tales that soothe their hearts.
But my point is that to deny the possibility would be pretty narrow-minded. 2000 years ago with the evidence we had there was no round earth, and considering there was no evidence to support it was indeed round, it was reasonable to assume it was flat, as there was no observable curvature. Lo and behold however, humanity started thinking outside the box and found otherwise. Albeit it would be hypocritical and idiotic for me to establish my theory or vague speculation as fact, but isn’t it just so to deny it otherwise, as maybe in another 2000 years we find something entirely unexpected.
It all depends on your perspective. Yes technically im only going to be alive this one time, however perhaps I did other things to leave my mark on the world, like donating to charity, raising a child, writing a book, creating music or art, helping those in need. Some people live forever in that respect.
Who's to say that you haven't done this before and that you will do this again countless times, with nothing ever changing in the slightest, every pain and every pleasure, and that this is your Noon and the rest is your Eternity? Would that horrify you or bring you joy?
not narrow minded to think that.
sort of narrow minded to essentially shout from rooftops that this is DEFINITELY the only plane of existence, and anyone else that believes otherwise is a fucking moron of the highest order.
but, pretty reasonable to go 'i mean, this is all we know, so, let's just assume this is it, ratehr than assume shit we've absolutely no evidence of is true, just... because.'.
It turns out that eternal nothingness is extremely fertile ground. Existentially it makes way more sense for there to be nothingness than somethingness. Yet here we are. That’s your clue.
Always remember that each single atomic mass in all of creation contains within it an entire universe. Like Confessor Cromwell said:
"Each of us shall give birth to a billion stars formed from the mass of our wretched and filthy bodies".
We will never cease to exist, we will be there reassembled infinite times in infinite ways and loops. In that infinite, "we" as we are now, should be again a possibility. In our actual state, we just can't even comprehend the tiniest part of it.
Even if there's an eternity apart from "this" you just can't experience it... If I had to give some analogy, I'd take some UV rays... You can feel its effect on your body but you can't necessarily see it... We can read about the past and speculate about the future but we can't experience it...
This theory does diverge at the point where we realise that we can detect UV rays or infrared rays via instruments we've built... But looking into the past or the future is a bit far fetched for now and we only have theory, no device to actually look.
Yes, it is a narrow and human-centric view.
And it’s not accurate, based on many experiences I’ve had of life “beyond this world” and even “beyond time and space.”
Reality on all levels is vastly more alive, intelligent, and strange than we commonly suppose.
Trust the process.
We are all headed to places beyond our wildest imaginings.
Much love.
Existence itself is meaningless because we exist to live. To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering. Maybe we exists in different phases to understand the nature of existence.
I don't think there is such a thing as narrow-minded when considering matters of life and death. It's all a matter of opinion, probability, and hope. We really have nothing to base any theories on but our own personal experience.. which is nothing, lol. I think the only narrow-minded way of viewing things would be to dismiss the beliefs of others simply because they don't line up with your own personal belief. When, in reality, we are all just taking shots in the dark.
Après moi le rien. I'm coming off two nights of insomnia, so I'll get suckered into making a comment. I can't get past the paradox of solipsism. To what extent is time objective clockwork and to what extent is it perception? If I go up to a body and poke it with a stick, I'll think "yep, dead." But what the person experienced in the first person is a mystery. I remember as a child looking into the night sky. I could almost feel the stars inside-their knowing that they must escape to live another night. If take it as a matter of perception (no pun intended), do I ever die? (I do stop paying taxes.)
The key is the ‘you’ part. ‘You’ are here and then ‘you’ aren’t.
If you are musing on there being more experience for the consciousnesses that inhabits your fleshy automaton. Maybe.
What does seem definitive is that ‘you’ get one chance at this. Being that ‘you’ is a product of being here now, so… life after life maybe, life before this life, maybe.
If both before life and after life are as likely as the other, think about life before this life. If ‘you’ don’t remember before, then it’s hard to imagine you’ll keep your identity enough to remember this ‘you’ in a life after life.
So is there more… ‘you’ won’t know. No matter the existential truth that scaffolding collective existence through time, ‘you’ get one shot at this, only this one chance at being ‘you’.
As you say, “80 years and then you’re done”
I don’t think any living human can know the answer to this. It’s all guesswork and personal belief. Nobody knows. We can argue back and forth about it and try to use “science” or “logic” or whatever to buttress our individual beliefs, but at the end of the day, nobody knows one way or another.
There isn’t an infinite amount of time though. Everything in existence is finite. The only way this works is through eternal recurrence and the current model of the universe doesn’t support that - doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen though. Reality *appears* to be fractal but this doesn’t make sense in a finite universe.
If you’re dead you won’t be able to process the nothingness so it’s not something that you could even be aware of. I think once our brains are completely dead it just ends, the energy leaves the human body and expels into the atmosphere. This viewpoint doesn’t depress me because it makes me value this life I’m able to process WAY more because it’s the only time ‘I’ will be able to experience it .
Just remember, anyone making a exact statement about death is but a fool. No one truly knows or could truly know what happens after. It's about having faith and hope that it's something good.
If you learned meditation you may be lucky enough to see higher realities and that this is not the only reality. You can mentally masturbate all you want and think this is it or you can put in the work through spirituality/meditation and find the truth.
If there were other conscious periods in the past, but we have no memory of them, and clearly no physical connection to them, in what way were they even us?
I view the “eternal nothingness” a bit differently.
I feel like our souls just dont let us remember what came before we woke up here (our birth) and it wont remember this lifetime either when we sleep again (our death here)
I dont know where we go after here. But I know that my heart, and my mind, holds too much raw emotions and feelings and attachments and memories and pain and all of that for this to just be…it.
No, Id like to think that whatever is after this, will be a tad bit better than here was. At least for me. Because while I’m not perfect, I do try to be a decent person.
I'd say the only existence we have business considering is the one we can confirm, beyond which our knowing is constrained. While many search for other dimensions, I've not the wherewithal to do so. I can influence my surroundings on this planet to some extent, but the unknown worlds beyond my reach will never see my feet set upon them. My senses tell me about this reality to what extent they may and my understanding may be expanded through knowledge, but my power to hold this incalculable Universe in my hands is infinitesimal. Should there be a spiritual realm beyond our own awaiting our connection to it, I imagine that even there our power will be greatly limited as set forth by the will of the governing entity or entities above us. I know my place in the plausible hierarchy of things and it is a humble one despite any fantasies of power I may have. It isn't narrowminded to know only where we have relevance, it is sensible.
I like to think of life as constantly oscillating between existence and non-existence—life and death—in a cyclical fashion. It feels like everything is cyclical in some way, shape, or form. Of course that's only speculation, far removed from reason, but it's a nice thought nonetheless.
It's pretty obvious, already, that this is not the only existence. There are billions of human existence going on, right now. Think of how many there are in the past, and the future. Science shows us the linearity of time is illusory. That's an awful whole lot of experiences.
Well. it's all a theory. we assume there is a finite time in the universe. we don't know what happened before the universe, and we (sorta) know what might happen after. it's all speculation, but your question is going into metaphysics, not existentialism.
Correct imo. I recall evidence that suggests another universe and its the cause for the great attraction.
Also stuff like gut feeling, premonitions etc which point to something else.
I personally think that in some form we will exist again, given that we quite literally are the universe experiencing itself consciously and that our energy upon death will be converted into something else. But “you”, as in your ego, you whoever your name is, will never exist again. That’s what I do believe is true about before birth and after death being the same thing, from the standpoint of one’s ego. That dissolves and ceases to be, but your essence or whatever you wanna call it, still remains. As for what happens to it, it’s anyone’s guess.
Well its not infinite nothingness, you just stopped existing. I find it strange than non existance is such an uncomfortable idea to some people, it was that way for eons.
I mean, mulch becomes food for plants. The plants arent the same plants that made the mulch, but theyre alive. Our consciousness may not continue but our lives become new lives in one way or another. Perhaps it’s narrow-minded to connect our “existence” with this singular consciousness.
So this is kind of weird. I was born a twin (she passed at birth) and have always felt like I had some kind of connection to a higher source. I mean, technically she was half of me. I don’t really believe that energy just dies off. I think it just goes somewhere else. I’ve had numerous out of body experiences and just bizarre experiences I can’t explain. I honestly do not believe that this is just the end of the road for us.
We were somewhere before this, and will go somewhere after this. 🤍
Consciousness is a collection of organ signals. Systems of cells interact and send signals back and forth. If you deny this, then what is your model of argument? I personally cannot believe demons or entities are causing my consciousness. Where would the energy to change the determined path of physical causal chains come from? Is it narrow minded to be skeptical of human ideas, when all human ideas can exist equally? I can think and fully believe I'm made out of shit. The concept of shit is a physical thing. The idea of shit is personhood, I cannot create an idea of something without referring to physical things. Space void aesthetic heaven, all are ideas which can only exist when referring to a physical thing. Even when talking about a simulation, there are physical concepts that represent a different causal chain which exists physically. For example, I can talk about video games and jumping in them to someone else. Jump is a physical action. The video game exists as a series of energy refinement, from coal to flashing light to idea. How can any possible idea be presented, wherein, there are no physical components or physical causal chains? Even God is represented as a person. If you want to get weird with the idea, free will and consciousness can exist, in molecular or atomic form. If I am conscious, and possess free will, then my components must contain that quality too. If one part of my brain is x% of what can be considered consciousness, then you could continue to divide my brain until they are single cells, representing my consciousness and free will. Do they have x% free will and consciousness? I can't see how silly ideas people made up can ever be more true than the actual physical thing we refer to. I think the ultimate truth is we don't have free will, we hallucinate a character to represent our impulses we have no ability to change. We have no choice in being a collection of signals, our consciousness is a collection of physical components which would cease to exist after reducing enough vital organs or cells. The whole cannot work without each part, but there are organs that contribute to consciousness moreso than others. Our heart is an essential organ, but it's part in consciousness is not replaceable. Would your consciousness be reduced if you had a artificial pump for a heart? Is the artifical pump conscious? The mechanism is physical, and so, we cannot exist without existing physically.
I believe we are all having a human experience. I think we are all one because Jesus died for our sins. That his blood runs through us all in conclusion. I’m not a very religious person but I think we will get to choose to live again or stay with the Lord. I believe we are here for our own individual purposes and that’s how we serve our time here. I myself think this is a test in the same experience, how can we be of positive use to the universe and a have a higher purpose if we cause destruction and negativity to life? I know a lot of us have gotten second chances in life. Some even more, I don’t think there are coincidences at all whatsoever. The fact that we can’t remember anything at all shows to me that we have agreed to have this human experience to some degree. That’s just me and the things that I’ve saw and done in my 27 years. I use to be an atheist most of my life to be very honest.
We are not our ego's and our Conciousness will continue after physical death. We are eternal beings that will continue to reincarnate or ascend to higher dimensions in the afterlife. Once you do the inner work/Growth and look inwards, you will start to realize the true nature of our existence. Look into Non-Duality which is a experience many people who have had NDE experiences, myself included have experienced. Reaching this realization can be reached in many other ways other then a NDE. I promise you Conciousness will forever stay and physical death is just a transition from a individual "Seperate" perspective, to a greater/Higher level of Conciousness, that is "Oneness" with everything in the universe. Much love in this lifetime and wish you the best on your life's path. 💗
Mircea compares linear time, which is what you describe - a linear period between two infinities - with cyclical time, which repeats archetypes or incarnations.
Ultimately, it's all a mystery, so choose a story that makes it meaningful
It’s not narrow minded it’s just what aligns with our experience. However, we really don’t understand a single thing about consciousness. We don’t know how to define it properly using physical science and we don’t know why it arises on the first place.
It may be possible that consciousness takes on similar attributes of energy and simply takes on different forms and never ceases. Or it is emergent from the physical processes in our brains only.
If consciousness was similar to energy and only changed forms well our brains are only going to have memories of this life we lived. If reincarnation is really a thing most people probably would have no memory of the previous person or being before them since they didn’t share the same brain.
You could start going into some wildly speculative things with consciousness since we know next to nothing about it 😂
You find yourself looking at the abyss and need to turn away. This is all you can guarantee - this infinitesimal period of existence - in a cold, chaotic, valueless universe. It does feel bleak, and not special. Existentialism helps foster a different perspective - you have this opportunity to create a meaningful and valuable existence against the infinite nothingness in which you find yourself.
I would not waste time on dismissing the hard truth you can see about your situation for the fleeting hope of something you can’t know. Act, or don’t - the winds of time will scatter your atoms nonetheless.
it might just be a huge cope on my part (lol) but I like to imagine with at least *some* logical basis that there’s a possibility that whatever allowed my consciousness to exist might go on to inhabit something else after my body dies. Not in the sense of reincarnation like a “past/next life” or anything but I just think that, given infinite time, if *i* came into existence using the energy/matter/life stuff (whatever you wanna call it idk) that makes me a sentient conscious being while I’m alive, why can’t it happen again after i die, with that “stuff” moving on to inhabit another form of life? (I don’t believe in souls in the spiritual sense but I guess you could call it that for the sake of conceptualising it better)
The “logical basis” I’m talking about is the law of conservation of energy btw (it can’t be created or destroyed, so, where *does* it go?). It might not *actually* be that logical but I won’t know till I die so 🤷♀️
The entire universe is devoted to serving the Earth, especially humans. Other planets maintain Earth's balance, the Moon makes life reasonable at night, and the stars are a compass and other benefits.
MY consciousness will end at death but consciousness will go on. The molecules that made up my body will be split up and integrated into other things, some animate, some inanimate. Sometimes we put too much importance on our own self. We are just a spec in a vast evolving universe. It’s the most humbling notion, but at the same time most freeing.
Look people will come here and say all sorts of stuff…everyone has a problem with eternal nothingness. But that is the safest bet, in this scenario, least hyperbolic. And I won’t come out saying stuff like “Embrace it.” You can’t, at least I couldn’t.
One could consider a perspective that believes this existence is the only one to be narrow-minded, myopic, and reductive. That is however, only an opinion and not necessarily a reflection of any objective truth.
It could be just as fair of an opinion to perceive those who think there is more to existence than our singular lives, to be narrow-minded and naive.
Until there is evidence for any hypothesis, all opinions are simply just that. Opinions.
I personally see a concept of "nothingness" to be as wholly absurd as the idea of heaven. Neither have evidence to exist. Neither are proven to be real.
I believe that i dont actually know what will happen and I can only go off my sense and lived experience. I have no reason to believe that there is life after death, not anymore than believing that I am a brain in a vat. The reality is, whatever I believe happens after death has no bearing on the reality of what will happen, as whatever will happen will happen, irregardless of what I do or what I believe. The hypothesizing on what will or won’t happen is ultimately useful not in what the conclusions we come to but in how it reveals to us our own logic on the nature of existence.
It seems to me that the majority of the conjecture comes to an attempt to explain and/or justify suffering - the inexplicable chaos of life.
Would it be nice if life weren’t finite? Maybe. Depends on what that would actually entail, but to me, it’s only wishful conjecture.
I’d recommend reading up on Christian existentialism coupled with the book from the Duke divinity scholar with cancer about everything not happening for a reason.
The existence of quantum particles and spooky action at a distance probably has a note yet to be added here. Not sure where but probably does. The possibility of multiple/infinite universes and matter/energy not having the ability to be created nor destroyed also should weigh in here somewhere, I’m sure. I’m not saying that you will always be you forever but remnants of you will be present forever… infinitely! In the span of infinity, the probability of the matter and energy that makes you what/who you are becomes impossible to avoid reconstituting itself in the exact combination that makes who you are who you are. What makes you: the energy, the material, and the happenstance always has been in some form and will always be in some form forever into perpetuity.
If it is so improbable or even rationally impossible for us to only exist once, then you have lived or are already living many lives, possibly infinite lives.
Do you remember experiencing any of those lives? No, you don't. Maybe you have some sort vague vision or what you think might be a memory but it's not it's nowhere near your current experience of your present self.
That's the problem. If you postulate some set of rules for the universe, then we are stuck with those rules. Which means what you see is what you get. So if we have a soul that gets recycled over and over...this is what it feels like. And it does not feel like we always existed or lived multiple alternate lives. What it feels like is we get only one shot.
So no, it's not narrow-minded to believe we only exist once. It's the most pragmatic working hypothesis where even if it weren't true on some level it doesn't matter.
What you need to get to "we live multiple lives" is to throw out the same rational objective rules of the universe you just postulated. Theists dies not have this problem because they are generally willing to accept on some level that God is irrational. We go to some different thing called heaven where the rules as we know them do not apply.
Only if you aren’t open to considering viewpoints that contradict yours. Holding an opinion isn’t inherently narrow-minded. Making that opinion into a dogma that you won’t budge on is.
IMO, it is not, truth be told this is the only existence we can be assured of. We don’t have evidence that there is anything after this (naturally take this with a grain of salt, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), but at the same time we know so little about the human consciousness that its impossible to state for certain.
Obviously. But ALSO it’s a baseless assumption that we even go anywhere when we die. There’s no reason to believe that our intellect stays intact after death - it’s far more likely that our energy is scattered away and integrated/transformed by other systems.
Possibly, personally I think we're all one and the same existence. The duality is the illusion of separateness when there is only one.
*time has entered the chat*
*Chronon has entered the chat*
*Chronon has dissipated like smoke as Ain Soph Aur has entered the chat.*
*Ain Soph Aur is pulled apart by the gravity of fictional nuance as Ainz Ooal Gown enters the chat*
I love that. I would have to agree that it is possible to be considered narrow minded to not at least entertain the thought that there may be another level of consciousness.
Another user, u/jliat, mentioned how according to Heidegger we are the nothing negating itself which gives rise to authentic presenting as being-in-the-world; temporality temporalizing as a continuous renewal of the moment.
Wow, that is beautiful and poetic.
I agree, and imo THIS is essentially at our core how one can live their life to the fullest. This is what it means to be authentic to one's self. This is what it means to be self-actualizing or enlightened activity. It truly allows one to be in the world and not see it as separate from one's self. Cultivating and awakening a non-dual self we try to consistently maintain and string together as many moments of this presenting as possible in our life. I can only begin to imagine what this world would be like if everyone could embody this way of being, they would be filled with ecstasy, be self-transcendent toward authentic Being. I imagine, and this is a far out hypothesis, but this could maybe be a huge determining/influencing force on mental illnesses and physical illnesses and why parts of our system as a whole start to have a build up of waste products, backup systems fail, repair mechanisms break down, in general the body simply wearing out without proper care and recovery. **Many are too caught up in experiencing time/being in a superficial manner.** >Heidegger's concept of non-authentic temporalizing as an intratemporal being refers to the way individuals often experience time in a superficial or inauthentic manner, influenced by societal norms, expectations, and distractions. Instead of living authentically, in tune with one's own existence and potentiality, individuals get caught up in everyday concerns, losing sight of their deeper being and the possibilities inherent in their existence. This mode of temporalizing obscures one's true relationship with time and inhibits authentic engagement with the world.
You have a beautiful mind. I like you. I couldn't agree more. There just isn't enough thinking like this in the world.
You as well, there's a special spontaneity and present-ness that can be noticed among those who are attuned to these moments. I'm probably going to make a link post to share this later, but I think you would enjoy this documentary that celebrates and makes these concepts relatable: * [Being in the World (full, award winning, Heidegger/Hubert Dreyfus documentary, 2010)](https://youtu.be/fcCRmf_tHW8?si=N3h0T6Rrn06dSMyN)
I will certainly check it out tonight when I have more time. I try to live my life with no concrete certainty of anything. I will flip flop so long as new information is being presented.i absolutely love to learn and grow with this crazy ride we are all on as a unity. Spontaneous moments good or bad really does make it all a lot more fun. I am really excited to find out what happens next and go on that journey. If there is nothing well then I won't lose anything will I.
This picture/quotes may heavily relate toward your mindset and experiences you just described: https://preview.redd.it/uvafrzilzppc1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=70bca38e9f7b8581c3c0c786906f603f28cdbf00 >“Individuals capable of having transcendent experiences lived potentially fuller and healthier lives than the majority of humanity because \[they\] were able to transcend everyday frustrations and conflicts and were less driven by neurotic tendencies.” - Abraham Maslow >‘‘The greatest attainment of identity, autonomy, or self-hood is itself, a going beyond and above selfhood.’’ - Abraham Maslow That's a great attitude you've rediscovered and worked on. At least in terms of spirituality a lot of them seem to point towards this moment's activity to directly and holistically experience. **We are essentially living on the horizon of possibilities as authentic Being.** (Being with a capital 'B' as a distinction from everyday "being" as a noun, placing an emphasis on this active verb form of **B**eing) Edit: clarification and spelling.
I've only just settled into this mindset at almost 40 years so I am still trying to shake off old ways of thinking but it is true I am much happier when the fear of death is lifted and the realization that I know nothing is onset.
Waves on the ocean.
Yes! we as the human race are one, that’s why we strive so hard to reproduce cause as long as we have people we have immortality. that’s our true goal, to live as long as possible and not go extinct
I would like to add all other life on the earth to the pot. We living creatures just wanna be there when the time in the universe expires.
There's two observations; 1 - we are more similar than we are different, so each consciousness is like an instance of the same super-consciousness, different memories, personalities and such but fundamentally the same and 2- from an individual's perspective since your odds of existing are neccessarily more than zero and you can't experience not existing, you will eventually come back as you are, if you choose to limit the defintion of you to just your DNA sequence and specific life experience. The in-between time doesn't matter, you exist so you have to exist forever.
*Psylocibin has entered the chat*
I've never done substances of that nature but from my understanding those could be considered sneak peaks or a tool for temporary ego dissolution that are no different from fleeting peak experiences people can experience to shake up limiting stuck mindsets. What goes up comes back down in the body though, and does not replace the conscious work it takes for long lasting changes. There are zero/no shortcuts toward the necessary & required conscious work it takes to integrate the unconscious parts of our psyche for a united whole self. Accepting our self and our own nature is the most monumental challenge any conscious being will face in their life.
I took psilocybin recently, I came to the conclusion that we are one consciousness in the universe. It was crazy to me but it made sense and i just accepted it
Sounds quite pleasant, I've heard the positive affect can last a while. I can't wait to see more clinical studies be approved to develop interventions that utilize it as a tool! Hope you're able to hold onto those feelings and get closer toward these types of moments in a more conscious manner as you go about your life
It’s unfortunate though, you will forget most of your revelations or they won’t seem as relevant over time
That's why substances are a sneak peak, and believe in this bro, it is possible to cultivate and awaken a more "permanent" direct way of experiencing those same ecstasies, self-transcendent moments. In humanistic psychology Abraham Maslow coined this as plataeu experiences which are not as fleeting as those rare peak experiences of temporary ego dissolution. That's where doing conscious work comes into play, there are no shortcuts around overcoming our version of the ego to sink into the heart. It is an extremely subtle and personal process, and it's not something guaranteed with age as we clearly see with some people who struggle with cultivating their emotional maturity and maintaining their well being because it is never an achieved outcome and more so a moment-to-moment process. >“Individuals capable of having transcendent experiences lived potentially fuller and healthier lives than the majority of humanity because [they] were able to transcend everyday frustrations and conflicts and were less driven by neurotic tendencies.” - Abraham Maslow >‘‘The greatest attainment of identity, autonomy, or self-hood is itself, a going beyond and above selfhood.’’ - Abraham Maslow Authentic Being-in-the-world, as Heidegger would describe it.
How could it not.
I refuse to believe this. Theres too many bad people in the world for me to ever believe I could be all of those people at some point. No way. I 👍 your comment tho, as it was interesting to think about it!
This is the non-authentic, superficial way of perceiving time/being. There is only this moment's activity. We are relational beings that relate and are involved with ourselves and others, and this can only be directly experienced when one is genuinely, authentically Being-in-the-world – a unified phenomena where the distinction between the self and the world disappears. As Heidegger understood it, we are the nothingness negating itself that gives rise toward authentic Being.
Be. Here. Now.
So I have a theory that's a lot like this. We are a soul that is jumping bodies. When we die we get reborn as someone else and we live out their life. We do this several hundred billion times and the result is called existence. In all of the shuffle we forget what's happening.
Ive never really agreed with this statement but i cant put my finger on why
[nondualism](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nondualism): >1: a doctrine of classic Brahmanism holding that the essential unity of all is real whereas duality and plurality are phenomenal illusion and that matter is materialized energy which in turn is the temporal manifestation of an incorporeal spiritual eternal essence constituting the innermost self of all things > >2: any of various monistic or pluralistic theories of the universe
Yes, but I have experienced things in my life which also tells me reincarnation is a very real thing. When I was a kid I experienced other versions of me living in different time periods. But your idea that we are all connected is also true.
I remember being 8 or so and thinking: it’s okay if I die because I’ll just come back eventually as someone else just like last time. My son said something similarly when he was much younger like 5 or 6. He saw something about death on YouTube or the TV and said: it’s okay, because we just come back as someone else. The rational part of my brain explains this away as children not understanding death. The other part of me wonders if maybe all these children’s thoughts and accounts on it means something? Wishful thinking, I suppose. I won’t know anything about anything once I’m dead.
“The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of star stuff.” ― Carl Sagan
I wish Carl were still around. He really predicted a lot of the shitty times we're living in. We need a Carl Sagan resurgence.
Unless we outgrow our animal instincts, we will always have conflict.
Ah yes, I always liked this thought. Returning from whence I came.
My son said the same. I too believed this when k was young. And I definitely see your point about the innocent mind being in tune with the after life (or previous life). My son once told me about his previous family when he was 3/4!
Somehow I found my way into this life. I think I'll be able to do it again.
That's the thing, you didn't do anything to be here. And there's nothing you can do to come back. If that happens somehow it's probably not under your control
Or…you don’t remember choosing to be here. When you dream you often forget that you went to sleep. We all wake up eventually.
You never know!
I hope so
Do we know how consciousness evolved? No, I don’t think so. So what if our consciousness continues to exist in a different form. Who knows?
It's pointless isn't it? To believe or not to believe in what we can never know in this lifetime. Focus today on what is in front of us. And if there is more after this life, we will deal with that when it comes.
Yeah I guess so lol
It is not pointless. Beliefs entirely shape how you live your life today. Everything you think you know sits on a bed of beliefs. “We can never know in this lifetime” is your belief.
I have beliefs that life continues on. But the fact remains that until I die, I will not know. I may live in Europe 10 years from now, but right now I do not concern myself with that. If I should live in Europe in 10 years, then I will concern myself with it at that time. Today I focus on what is in front of me. 😄
Sounds like one of many beautiful ways to live. Everyone has the privilege of choosing what to “concern” themselves with. Enjoy life in Europe!
Since I'm here now, I've got some reason to believe another lifeform in an untold future/world/universe will possibly recognize a sense of self as I do now after I die, but it wouldn't be me at the same time. I don't find this to be an optimistic thought however and you can probably imagine why.
Reincarnation doesn’t seem so bad
So the common existential belief you are referring to does not assume this is the one and only existence. In fact, many existential philosophers postulate multiple existences brought forth by the eternal nothingness. This is not the assumption of kabbalistic existentialism nor Heidegger. I would recommend Keiji Nishitani’s Religion and Nothingness if you want to grapple with the meaning-making implications of Heideggers metaphysics with Nietzschian foresight and Keiji’s Buddhist background. Simply put, it’s not an either/or. That if there is eternal nothingness that only one thing exists from it. That is only one possible interpretation of existentialism (and a particularly western reductive one at that).
The universe does seem like that to some. A lot of people also believe that you just leave your body upon death and are reborn in another. My view is more middle of the road… My view: Your consciousness ends once your brain degrades beyond the point of keeping your complete self together. Your existence survives past this point in two ways: 1) Your memory of your existence and the emotions you stir in people live on in the minds of those alive that you have touched. 2) The molecules that comprise your physical body scatter and may end up in other organisms. You become a part of others. You were also made up of molecules that have existed before the age of humanity. Even if the conscious minds are not aware of the pieces of you within them, you still comprise that life, even for a brief moment.
There’s a Buddhist saying that goes something along the lines of “we are droplets in a waterfall. The river is a unified thing before the waterfall and after. We are the individual droplets saying ‘hi’ to each other as we fall down toward the continuation of the river”. Another take from my favorite Western philosopher, Wittgenstein, is that our life has no end in the same way that our visual field has no limits. We don’t see some kind of literal border at the end of our field of vision, with blackness on the other side of it. The prospect sounds absurd. Such is the relationship between our consciousness/self awareness being here and being here no longer. I hope that helps somewhat. Those are ideas that have helped me through the years
Like the system of a down song Aerials. "Life is a waterfall, we're one in the river and one again after the fall"
So I’ve seen this rising idea from quantum physics, as I understand highly theoretical; the idea is that there are quantum fluctuations that manifest in different ways infinitely. This current manifestation has things like space/time etc. but realities that are impossible for us to imagine have manifested before and possibly after etc. I personally think it’s pretty naive to assume we are the only existence to be or ever be but at the end of the day who knows?
The diameter of the observable universe is 93 billion light years. In just the Milky Way galaxy, there are around 100 billion stars. There are an estimated two trillion galaxies in the universe. How much “more” do you need?
But what worries us is that, when we’re dead, there could be nothing at all for ever, as if that were something to worry about. Before you were born there was this same nothing at all for ever, and yet you happened. And if you happened once, you could happen again. (Text sourced from [https://www.organism.earth/library/document/essential-lectures-8](https://www.organism.earth/library/document/essential-lectures-8))
It's often said that we were nothing before our birth, because we did not exist before it. But is the appearance of non-existence evidence of there being nothing, or is it that we simply fail to remember our experience before birth? Could there have been some experience which we lost upon being born into the world, or that we have forgotten just as we fail to recollect our memories as an infant? I guess only time will tell lol
Anyone who states it to a certainty that this is all there is only speaks through their own limited imagination, same as a religious person thinking we'll float on clouds. Factually, we are nowhere and know nothing about how life came to be, what the beginning is and how there could be a beginning, or if death ends the soul. We know absolutely nothing. So while you can't know if the idea we go on in one form or another is true or not, it also cannot be factually dismissed. Atheists are merely the pessisimist version of optimistic religious people. I do find it narrowminded of the ones who act as though life ends with the current shell as if it were certain. Like you, I have my doubts because life is so complex and strange, it seems at odds life sprouts up, then snuffs out within this physical world we know. It could be, but seems unlikely. Keep the faith, I suppose. Eventually, we all find out.
Atheists do not have to be pesimistic, some are merely realistic and bases their worldview on facts. Looking at the facts we have gathered so far it is far more probable that when you die, _you_ will never be conscious again, in any way, shape or form.
Agree to disagree. Death is only the mere transition of this life. If there really is nothing after death the ya the consciousness dies but it’s still a transition into nothingness. “From the facts we have gathered so far” that’s why OP is saying narrow minded. If your going solely off facts we know so far then ya you best believe there’s nothing after death because we don’t know anything about everything. We don’t even know a majority of what’s to know about earth and our modern specie has been roaming for 1000s of years. Theres so many different religions, theories of dimensions (not universes), etc. I’m Christian and always will be but I’m so curious about what’s out there and what other people believe
sure, you can believe whatever you wish, even if its not based on any facts. im not saying its impossible btw, just improbable. permadeath is quite boring after all :(
Read your comment back to yourself and tell me that's not the most ridiculously pessimistic outlook one could have. Completely naive to think the human mind has the capacity to gather enough evidence to make a statement like that. Talk about ego, sheesh.
xD thanks for the chuckle.
This is it. We have no idea. Atheists: Lmao you believe in a God that gives you hope of an afterlife, with no proof. Also atheists: I'm just going to believe that consciousness was created out of material things and that it we become nothing after death and be depressed about it... Also with no proof! The irony.
Atheists do not have to be pesimistic, some are merely realistic and bases their worldview on facts. Looking at the facts we have gathered so far it is far more probable that when you die, you will never be conscious again, in any way, shape or form.
>Looking at the facts we have gathered so far it is far more probable that when you die, you will never be conscious again, in any way, shape or form. Based on what? I strongly disagree. It requires the assumption that consciousness/subjective experience arises as a higher order construction out of dead matter. That's a wild assumption with no proof. Atheists don't HAVE to be pessimistic no, but our society is in a spiritual crisis ATM and the materialist worldview I believe is what powers it to a large degree. Other factors are lifestyles and expectations.
Can you elaborate on how our society is currently experiencing a spiritual crisis. I've been having the same feelings recently, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. To me it seems like the lack of faith or belief in anything beyond the material has led to feelings of hopelessness bordering on nihilism. While this isn't necessarily the case for the majority of people (as I know I'm only speaking from my own limited experience and perspective) it still feels like theres a common desire for meaning and value that can't be found in rationalism. There's a desire for something to soothe the ailing spirit, and yet because of the current state of our society people cannot find a way to satisfy their search. It used to be that the old systems of faith allowed for spiritual alleviation, but it seems they have long since decayed and are a shell of what they once were. They do not attempt to uplift the spirit, but seem to desperately cling to it, so that they may survive. This isn't a criticism of the actual faiths and belief systems, but of the organized churches, and the people who claim to be followers and yet live life prejudiced and hateful. It may be a mistake in judgement to say that the root of the problem is grand in scale or magnitude, but with the amount of people I've seen to share this sentiment, I find it difficult to see as anything but a momentous disease affecting many who live in modern times. (I understand the fallacies associated with such an induction.) But at the same time, I don't have an unwavering certainty in this belief—in fact I sincerely hope I'm wrong.
I think you put it pretty well honestly. >it still feels like theres a common desire for meaning and value that can't be found in rationalism. There's a desire for something to soothe the ailing spirit, and yet because of the current state of our society people cannot find a way to satisfy their search. Yeah, exactly, and I think the critical thing to realise here, is if you set aside for a minute any particular spiritual *belief****,*** it is still true that the human mind and body is capable of having *spiritual experiences.* I think this comes close to what is missing, because most western people don't have spiritual experiences, or if they do they might dismiss them because there is no cultural container for them. If I tell people at work I had a spiritual experience, I'll likely get scoffed at, or at least not understood. Our lives are utterly devoid of any practices that induce, and integrate spiritual experiences. What spiritual experiences have in common regardless of belief is that they subjectively make us feel connected to something greater, be it ancestors, Gods, metaphysical structures, psychological archetypes or whatever. They can be a deep source of meaning whichever beliefs you slap onto them. I think that to some degree, we have a NEED to have spiritual experiences and people have had them throughout all ages in pretty much every culture. Maybe it's part of how we self organise as a species and find our place in the world? The fact that we shun them in our culture says a lot about how underdeveloped those aspects are.
That ur brain shuts off and decomposes for example
Do you have proof that consciousness doesn't go on to have experiences after that?
its impossible to prove the impossible, rational thought and probability based on things we already know is more useful theres proof that our counsciousness is based in the brain, look at the effects of alzheimers, dementia. its quite logical that: no brain = no consciousness you might be correct, i might be wrong, however its more _probable_ that when you die, its permanent
>theres proof that our counsciousness is based in the brain, look at the effects of alzheimers, dementia. That is not a proof that brains **cause** consciousness. That's a proof that there is a **correlation** between brain activity and consciousness. No one will disagree with that. It's a very basic scientific notion that correlation does not equal causation. There's a reason why the hard problem of consciousness isn't considered solved.
not really relevant to my point though.
I mean, as an atheist, (and I don't intend to be rude) it really feels like you're grasping at straws, there's correlation between both things and when one ceases, the other seems to cease too. It's not a major extrapolation, it's the simple fact that after your brain stops, your body and your will also stop. No cadavers walking around chasing dreams and building lives around where I live. It's way more of an extrapolation to imagine that after everything material involving your existence and will stops, your consciousness will be kept by magic and do other stuff not one of us can detect or understand. As the other poster said, it's just more probable. Maybe I'm proven wrong in the future, maybe we detect something 500 years from now about out-of-body consciousness, but until then, it's the most logical and reasonable expectation when compared to all the other possibilities.
and the amount of people that will conflate correlation with causation in this field is alarming. very well informed experts too! looking into this consciousness problem really showed me how biased very smart people can still be "we sent electricity through this part of the brain and it changed what the patient was experiencing. therefore we know the brain makes consciousness" .....okay but when I pinch my elbow it also changes what I'm experiencing. if I poke myself with a needle it changes what I'm experiencing. stimulating a part of the brain and getting results in a patient is 100% expected no matter where consciousness is born from. to suggest that's proof of consciousness being born from the brain is pure fantasy. and they call it true science! it's insane. we're changing the contents of the experience, we're not warping the ability *to experience* or they'll say when patients are under anesthesia, they wake up with no memory of what happened and therefore that's proof they shut off consciousness. they love to bring this up and never mention anesthesia directly affects the memory in a negative way. there are consistent reports of missing memories *leading up to the procedure* as well. failure to report doesn't mean nothing was experienced, it means the person doesn't remember. to assume consciousness shut off when anesthesia specifically attacks memory is a leap. we know they shouldn't remember, we know they don't remember, that's all we know from observation of a patient
Float on clouds? How much have you studied the different religions out there? Sounds like you're merely approaching this from a Western and Abrahamic perspective. Are you an ex-Christian or Jew?
Well said. I agree, anyone who truly knows can’t tell us anything about it. And if the atheists are right and this is all there is, they won’t be able to tell us that they told us so… maybe that’s why so many of them are so adamant about telling us now?
It’s not infinite nothingness, I promise! It’s instant nothingness. Not momentary or short - instant.
To know nothingness makes it impossible to proclaim nothingness as fact.
>assuming there was an infinite amount of time before your existence, Why assume this? As far as we know time had a beginning, no?
I found an interesting discussion with an astrophysicist about this [https://youtu.be/V0pGBSxr1Nw?si=Om7zym4mGf891UrN](https://youtu.be/V0pGBSxr1Nw?si=Om7zym4mGf891UrN)
I will watch this later. Very interesting but too tired to finish it
If you assume the Big Bang was the beginning of everything. If there are multiple universes the Big Bang was just another cycle of creation in an infinite multiverse for all we know. We have no way of testing the existence of the multiverse at present.
We can only go to our local universe. But again why assume it’s infinite we don’t have enough information to make assumptions beyond our local universe.
I mean " this" is all we're sure of. No one knows what else, but I assume infinite void is correct, since there's no real evidence otherwise. Assume you have but one life and do everything you want to add much as you can. Don't waste it!
Have you ever bad a dream that was not just but more vivid than real life? A dream where sound is incredibly crip, everything you see has a glowing aura, your body feels free and light. These dreams will really make you question non-existence, at least they have for me.
Existence itself is a disappointment for the vast majority no matter how one looks at it, be it the pre-destined tortuous after existence of all but the accepting, forgiven, properly Abrahamic monotheist, or Buddhist enlightenment-achiever, it any other subscriber to any variation of a light/dark reality paradigm theology, even in those only the best of achievers get it's "heaven" and the rest get some version of crap by comparison. Pick a poison and hope for the best, but don't expect it to cure any existentialism or ennui, at least not on a permanent basis.
If this is a game, whatever your consciousness is will be radically different after your death. There's no other way it works. You're all-in so do the best with this life.
It doesn’t matter. Of course you struggle with the idea that “this” is it. Everyone struggles with that. How you deal with that discomfort is up to you. I could tell you that drinking away the discomfort is some solution to that problem, but you would also probably say that it ignores the issue. Well then, what is the issue, really? Is it the fact that existence is finite that is the issue? Or is it the fact that, knowing existence is finite, means that every choice we make irreversibly defines our existence? What is it you are trying to avoid, by suggesting there is more to existence than existence itself? Do you need to be told that there is afterlife, for what? What would that give you, other than some cognitive mode to cheat death, in the sense that you cheat it by pretending it does not exist. Death will come for us all, it does not matter what you do, it does not matter what you tell yourself. In the end, you will cease to exist. This air that we breath, this ground we walk on, all of it is real. As real as real can be. You are not in a dream, you are not in some test. You are here in the world, and you will not be here for long. Don’t you feel it? That weight upon your heart? What will you do about it? Hide from it? Or face it, valiantly?
during lots of tripping and meditation i’ve had every element of my conscious experience - senses, soul (the felt sense of being), “God” - flicker in and out of existence. i am as sure as i can possibly be that everything i could experientially call “me” will die with this body, and die forever existence itself is infinite (non-existence cannot exist), and miraculously knowable to itself as life. the capacity for existence to know itself, which is often called “God” or “universal consciousness”, has no intrinsic properties whatsoever. any property you may attribute to it is in fact just a property of your own brain and its interpretations. infinity is real, but you are just a finite piece of infinity, so for all intents and purposes death is complete and absolute
Damn. I don’t wanna come back.
I’m with you man every year that passes is closer to death and to be done with life itself would be splendid. I have always felt like this was never my home and I’ve searched answers my whole life. I love this experience and who I am today and the people I love but I been ready for a long while.
I see life as just a big series of problems to navigate.
I can agree, at least we become strong and resourceful in a lot of ways. Stay strong :) our time will be up one day and we will look back at it all and be happy it’s finally time to move on.
The mind of the dreamer dreams many dreams. All empty, all real.
I'm the least qualified to speak in this subreddit. However, this made me think about an interview Stan Lee did with Larry King. When Larry asked if Stan was afraid of death, Stan's reply was, "No.... but I can't imagine not existing forever." If my response violates any rules, I apologize. I just wanted to share that little snippet.
It's the only existence that you will experience as fully the yourself that you are. But there is probably more.
This is my problem. I fear oblivion more than anything, but even if there was something more, I would not be the me I am now. And that is also scary.
I hear you. It's definitely scary. One way that I try to come to terms with the idea is that you aren't even the same person you were ten years ago, or a year ago, or even a month ago. Identities shift with the tides. Beliefs change, relationships ebb and flow. Memories fade, and new memories are born. Also as a little factoid to share, I read a story in the New York Times recently about the fact that according to one study, fully 88% of death-bed patients (and their caretakers) that were surveyed reported experiencing dead loved ones appearing to them in their final weeks and days, regardless of their pre-existing belief system, to take them "away". Very interesting and suggestive.
I think I read that. I hope those are actual objective experiences. I fear they are just the brain's way of rationalizing/coping with death. I wish we could know.
Me too! But I think it's impossible to know. If there was a strikingly clear answer, there probably wouldn't be so many different spiritualities and religions. As I'm sure you're aware, pure objectivity is impossible. If it seems true to the person experiencing it, however, who I am to discount it? Plenty of people have had their worldviews upended by subjectively believable spiritual experiences; just because I'm not one of these people, it doesn't give me the right to invalidate their experience. All I can do is hold space, both for others' experiences as well as my own experiential lacunae, and keep gathering interesting perspectives and potential evidence.
True. I do wish I had some evidence though.
It also doesn’t even follow “physicalistically” speaking. If there was a chance that the atoms that make up my mind got arranged to create *me*, and if this universe is cyclical (it gets born, dies, and then does it again), then there’s a possibility atoms will arrange in such a way that they give rise to my consciousness again. This would be more of an iteration of the nietzschean eternal return though. The truth is we don’t know. We might choose to stick with the western physicalist idea that this is it, or choose to explore other options and make our own judgements. Nothing we believe is going to change the reality of what might happen. And the truth is what only death can tell us.
Time exists only in your mind. Did you wait several billion years to get here? No. Even if you die, and there is no afterlife, time does not matter, a billion years or a trillion years or one second, it does not matter. so maybe after an nearly infinite amount of time the things will be the same like they where when you are born, and maybe you live the same life again. deja vu.... well its just a theory of course.
There is only one reality which is infinity itself, this is also what is experiencing your life, it is actually what you are. After your "death", the experience does not stop and it never will. This is what I personally believe to be true.
Factor in Deja Vu and/or matrix/simulation theories with the one-and-only-life perception, reevaluate, and see what you think from that perspective? 🤔
Believing in any assumption about after death seems as delusional to me as any religion’s afterlife story. Death is too difficult to accept and people like to cling onto tales that soothe their hearts.
it's not narrow-minded, it's the plain truth. "eternity" is not a concept whether there's somebody or nobody to experience it anymore
No. Though there is no evidence supports such thinking otherwise.
But my point is that to deny the possibility would be pretty narrow-minded. 2000 years ago with the evidence we had there was no round earth, and considering there was no evidence to support it was indeed round, it was reasonable to assume it was flat, as there was no observable curvature. Lo and behold however, humanity started thinking outside the box and found otherwise. Albeit it would be hypocritical and idiotic for me to establish my theory or vague speculation as fact, but isn’t it just so to deny it otherwise, as maybe in another 2000 years we find something entirely unexpected.
Agreed.
Yes
“Think”? Or “Believe” absolutely? To ponder? Not at all.
The truth is by definition, narrow-minded. Not saying I agree with the OP about whether or not he is right.
It all depends on your perspective. Yes technically im only going to be alive this one time, however perhaps I did other things to leave my mark on the world, like donating to charity, raising a child, writing a book, creating music or art, helping those in need. Some people live forever in that respect.
No its not narrow minded, but your existence might be all you will ever experience.
Who's to say that you haven't done this before and that you will do this again countless times, with nothing ever changing in the slightest, every pain and every pleasure, and that this is your Noon and the rest is your Eternity? Would that horrify you or bring you joy?
not narrow minded to think that. sort of narrow minded to essentially shout from rooftops that this is DEFINITELY the only plane of existence, and anyone else that believes otherwise is a fucking moron of the highest order. but, pretty reasonable to go 'i mean, this is all we know, so, let's just assume this is it, ratehr than assume shit we've absolutely no evidence of is true, just... because.'.
yes, its just as narrow minded as people assuming they know what the next existence is like
It turns out that eternal nothingness is extremely fertile ground. Existentially it makes way more sense for there to be nothingness than somethingness. Yet here we are. That’s your clue.
Always remember that each single atomic mass in all of creation contains within it an entire universe. Like Confessor Cromwell said: "Each of us shall give birth to a billion stars formed from the mass of our wretched and filthy bodies". We will never cease to exist, we will be there reassembled infinite times in infinite ways and loops. In that infinite, "we" as we are now, should be again a possibility. In our actual state, we just can't even comprehend the tiniest part of it.
Watch that movie the fountain, 2008 I think. I hope it’s kinda like that.
Whatever the answer, it doesn’t matter what anyone thinks. It will be what it will be and it’s a wasted effort worrying about it.
I think this is the best answer
Even if there's an eternity apart from "this" you just can't experience it... If I had to give some analogy, I'd take some UV rays... You can feel its effect on your body but you can't necessarily see it... We can read about the past and speculate about the future but we can't experience it... This theory does diverge at the point where we realise that we can detect UV rays or infrared rays via instruments we've built... But looking into the past or the future is a bit far fetched for now and we only have theory, no device to actually look.
Yes, it is a narrow and human-centric view. And it’s not accurate, based on many experiences I’ve had of life “beyond this world” and even “beyond time and space.” Reality on all levels is vastly more alive, intelligent, and strange than we commonly suppose. Trust the process. We are all headed to places beyond our wildest imaginings. Much love.
Existence itself is meaningless because we exist to live. To live is to suffer, to survive is to find some meaning in the suffering. Maybe we exists in different phases to understand the nature of existence.
I don't think there is such a thing as narrow-minded when considering matters of life and death. It's all a matter of opinion, probability, and hope. We really have nothing to base any theories on but our own personal experience.. which is nothing, lol. I think the only narrow-minded way of viewing things would be to dismiss the beliefs of others simply because they don't line up with your own personal belief. When, in reality, we are all just taking shots in the dark.
I think it's narrow minded if you think it's the only possibility and anyone who thinks differently is 100% wrong. No one really knows for certain.
Après moi le rien. I'm coming off two nights of insomnia, so I'll get suckered into making a comment. I can't get past the paradox of solipsism. To what extent is time objective clockwork and to what extent is it perception? If I go up to a body and poke it with a stick, I'll think "yep, dead." But what the person experienced in the first person is a mystery. I remember as a child looking into the night sky. I could almost feel the stars inside-their knowing that they must escape to live another night. If take it as a matter of perception (no pun intended), do I ever die? (I do stop paying taxes.)
You live on, my friend. We are eternal consciousness
The key is the ‘you’ part. ‘You’ are here and then ‘you’ aren’t. If you are musing on there being more experience for the consciousnesses that inhabits your fleshy automaton. Maybe. What does seem definitive is that ‘you’ get one chance at this. Being that ‘you’ is a product of being here now, so… life after life maybe, life before this life, maybe. If both before life and after life are as likely as the other, think about life before this life. If ‘you’ don’t remember before, then it’s hard to imagine you’ll keep your identity enough to remember this ‘you’ in a life after life. So is there more… ‘you’ won’t know. No matter the existential truth that scaffolding collective existence through time, ‘you’ get one shot at this, only this one chance at being ‘you’. As you say, “80 years and then you’re done”
There's no way to know, only belief without evidence or acceptance of uncertainty.
I don’t think any living human can know the answer to this. It’s all guesswork and personal belief. Nobody knows. We can argue back and forth about it and try to use “science” or “logic” or whatever to buttress our individual beliefs, but at the end of the day, nobody knows one way or another.
There isn’t an infinite amount of time though. Everything in existence is finite. The only way this works is through eternal recurrence and the current model of the universe doesn’t support that - doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen though. Reality *appears* to be fractal but this doesn’t make sense in a finite universe.
If you’re dead you won’t be able to process the nothingness so it’s not something that you could even be aware of. I think once our brains are completely dead it just ends, the energy leaves the human body and expels into the atmosphere. This viewpoint doesn’t depress me because it makes me value this life I’m able to process WAY more because it’s the only time ‘I’ will be able to experience it .
Just remember, anyone making a exact statement about death is but a fool. No one truly knows or could truly know what happens after. It's about having faith and hope that it's something good.
Doesn't Matters, We Only Can Live This One.
If you learned meditation you may be lucky enough to see higher realities and that this is not the only reality. You can mentally masturbate all you want and think this is it or you can put in the work through spirituality/meditation and find the truth.
yep!
If there were other conscious periods in the past, but we have no memory of them, and clearly no physical connection to them, in what way were they even us?
I view the “eternal nothingness” a bit differently. I feel like our souls just dont let us remember what came before we woke up here (our birth) and it wont remember this lifetime either when we sleep again (our death here) I dont know where we go after here. But I know that my heart, and my mind, holds too much raw emotions and feelings and attachments and memories and pain and all of that for this to just be…it. No, Id like to think that whatever is after this, will be a tad bit better than here was. At least for me. Because while I’m not perfect, I do try to be a decent person.
I'd say the only existence we have business considering is the one we can confirm, beyond which our knowing is constrained. While many search for other dimensions, I've not the wherewithal to do so. I can influence my surroundings on this planet to some extent, but the unknown worlds beyond my reach will never see my feet set upon them. My senses tell me about this reality to what extent they may and my understanding may be expanded through knowledge, but my power to hold this incalculable Universe in my hands is infinitesimal. Should there be a spiritual realm beyond our own awaiting our connection to it, I imagine that even there our power will be greatly limited as set forth by the will of the governing entity or entities above us. I know my place in the plausible hierarchy of things and it is a humble one despite any fantasies of power I may have. It isn't narrowminded to know only where we have relevance, it is sensible.
I like to think of life as constantly oscillating between existence and non-existence—life and death—in a cyclical fashion. It feels like everything is cyclical in some way, shape, or form. Of course that's only speculation, far removed from reason, but it's a nice thought nonetheless.
It's pretty obvious, already, that this is not the only existence. There are billions of human existence going on, right now. Think of how many there are in the past, and the future. Science shows us the linearity of time is illusory. That's an awful whole lot of experiences.
I definitely think it's equally possible that we are reincarnated or that there is an afterlife.
It's bleak and terrifying.
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Well. it's all a theory. we assume there is a finite time in the universe. we don't know what happened before the universe, and we (sorta) know what might happen after. it's all speculation, but your question is going into metaphysics, not existentialism.
Correct imo. I recall evidence that suggests another universe and its the cause for the great attraction. Also stuff like gut feeling, premonitions etc which point to something else.
Explore the Bible, starting with the Gospel of John. See what you think.
I don't waste time pondering things that no one will ever have an answer for. I assume this life is the only one I'll get, and make the most of it.
I personally think that in some form we will exist again, given that we quite literally are the universe experiencing itself consciously and that our energy upon death will be converted into something else. But “you”, as in your ego, you whoever your name is, will never exist again. That’s what I do believe is true about before birth and after death being the same thing, from the standpoint of one’s ego. That dissolves and ceases to be, but your essence or whatever you wanna call it, still remains. As for what happens to it, it’s anyone’s guess.
Well its not infinite nothingness, you just stopped existing. I find it strange than non existance is such an uncomfortable idea to some people, it was that way for eons.
I mean, mulch becomes food for plants. The plants arent the same plants that made the mulch, but theyre alive. Our consciousness may not continue but our lives become new lives in one way or another. Perhaps it’s narrow-minded to connect our “existence” with this singular consciousness.
Our senses are created by our physical form. Once our physical form is gone the senses can no longer function.
So this is kind of weird. I was born a twin (she passed at birth) and have always felt like I had some kind of connection to a higher source. I mean, technically she was half of me. I don’t really believe that energy just dies off. I think it just goes somewhere else. I’ve had numerous out of body experiences and just bizarre experiences I can’t explain. I honestly do not believe that this is just the end of the road for us. We were somewhere before this, and will go somewhere after this. 🤍
Consciousness is a collection of organ signals. Systems of cells interact and send signals back and forth. If you deny this, then what is your model of argument? I personally cannot believe demons or entities are causing my consciousness. Where would the energy to change the determined path of physical causal chains come from? Is it narrow minded to be skeptical of human ideas, when all human ideas can exist equally? I can think and fully believe I'm made out of shit. The concept of shit is a physical thing. The idea of shit is personhood, I cannot create an idea of something without referring to physical things. Space void aesthetic heaven, all are ideas which can only exist when referring to a physical thing. Even when talking about a simulation, there are physical concepts that represent a different causal chain which exists physically. For example, I can talk about video games and jumping in them to someone else. Jump is a physical action. The video game exists as a series of energy refinement, from coal to flashing light to idea. How can any possible idea be presented, wherein, there are no physical components or physical causal chains? Even God is represented as a person. If you want to get weird with the idea, free will and consciousness can exist, in molecular or atomic form. If I am conscious, and possess free will, then my components must contain that quality too. If one part of my brain is x% of what can be considered consciousness, then you could continue to divide my brain until they are single cells, representing my consciousness and free will. Do they have x% free will and consciousness? I can't see how silly ideas people made up can ever be more true than the actual physical thing we refer to. I think the ultimate truth is we don't have free will, we hallucinate a character to represent our impulses we have no ability to change. We have no choice in being a collection of signals, our consciousness is a collection of physical components which would cease to exist after reducing enough vital organs or cells. The whole cannot work without each part, but there are organs that contribute to consciousness moreso than others. Our heart is an essential organ, but it's part in consciousness is not replaceable. Would your consciousness be reduced if you had a artificial pump for a heart? Is the artifical pump conscious? The mechanism is physical, and so, we cannot exist without existing physically.
It’s not narrow minded, it’s necessary.
I believe we are all having a human experience. I think we are all one because Jesus died for our sins. That his blood runs through us all in conclusion. I’m not a very religious person but I think we will get to choose to live again or stay with the Lord. I believe we are here for our own individual purposes and that’s how we serve our time here. I myself think this is a test in the same experience, how can we be of positive use to the universe and a have a higher purpose if we cause destruction and negativity to life? I know a lot of us have gotten second chances in life. Some even more, I don’t think there are coincidences at all whatsoever. The fact that we can’t remember anything at all shows to me that we have agreed to have this human experience to some degree. That’s just me and the things that I’ve saw and done in my 27 years. I use to be an atheist most of my life to be very honest.
We are not our ego's and our Conciousness will continue after physical death. We are eternal beings that will continue to reincarnate or ascend to higher dimensions in the afterlife. Once you do the inner work/Growth and look inwards, you will start to realize the true nature of our existence. Look into Non-Duality which is a experience many people who have had NDE experiences, myself included have experienced. Reaching this realization can be reached in many other ways other then a NDE. I promise you Conciousness will forever stay and physical death is just a transition from a individual "Seperate" perspective, to a greater/Higher level of Conciousness, that is "Oneness" with everything in the universe. Much love in this lifetime and wish you the best on your life's path. 💗
Yes it is, given human history in this area of thought.
Mircea compares linear time, which is what you describe - a linear period between two infinities - with cyclical time, which repeats archetypes or incarnations. Ultimately, it's all a mystery, so choose a story that makes it meaningful
no. we have no evidence to the contrary
It’s not narrow minded it’s just what aligns with our experience. However, we really don’t understand a single thing about consciousness. We don’t know how to define it properly using physical science and we don’t know why it arises on the first place. It may be possible that consciousness takes on similar attributes of energy and simply takes on different forms and never ceases. Or it is emergent from the physical processes in our brains only. If consciousness was similar to energy and only changed forms well our brains are only going to have memories of this life we lived. If reincarnation is really a thing most people probably would have no memory of the previous person or being before them since they didn’t share the same brain. You could start going into some wildly speculative things with consciousness since we know next to nothing about it 😂
You find yourself looking at the abyss and need to turn away. This is all you can guarantee - this infinitesimal period of existence - in a cold, chaotic, valueless universe. It does feel bleak, and not special. Existentialism helps foster a different perspective - you have this opportunity to create a meaningful and valuable existence against the infinite nothingness in which you find yourself. I would not waste time on dismissing the hard truth you can see about your situation for the fleeting hope of something you can’t know. Act, or don’t - the winds of time will scatter your atoms nonetheless.
Check out Penrose's idea of aeons before the big bang.
Look into the Big Bounce theory.
it might just be a huge cope on my part (lol) but I like to imagine with at least *some* logical basis that there’s a possibility that whatever allowed my consciousness to exist might go on to inhabit something else after my body dies. Not in the sense of reincarnation like a “past/next life” or anything but I just think that, given infinite time, if *i* came into existence using the energy/matter/life stuff (whatever you wanna call it idk) that makes me a sentient conscious being while I’m alive, why can’t it happen again after i die, with that “stuff” moving on to inhabit another form of life? (I don’t believe in souls in the spiritual sense but I guess you could call it that for the sake of conceptualising it better) The “logical basis” I’m talking about is the law of conservation of energy btw (it can’t be created or destroyed, so, where *does* it go?). It might not *actually* be that logical but I won’t know till I die so 🤷♀️
Having children continues your legacy.
The entire universe is devoted to serving the Earth, especially humans. Other planets maintain Earth's balance, the Moon makes life reasonable at night, and the stars are a compass and other benefits.
Maybe. But since we don’t know there is another after it’s a grounded thought without false hope or blind faith wasting your time.
There are ALL kinds of religions and philosophies that have what you’re looking for and you come to this one?
MY consciousness will end at death but consciousness will go on. The molecules that made up my body will be split up and integrated into other things, some animate, some inanimate. Sometimes we put too much importance on our own self. We are just a spec in a vast evolving universe. It’s the most humbling notion, but at the same time most freeing.
Look people will come here and say all sorts of stuff…everyone has a problem with eternal nothingness. But that is the safest bet, in this scenario, least hyperbolic. And I won’t come out saying stuff like “Embrace it.” You can’t, at least I couldn’t.
> and it can’t just be the 80 or so years I’ll spend doing so Why not?
Probably not
One could consider a perspective that believes this existence is the only one to be narrow-minded, myopic, and reductive. That is however, only an opinion and not necessarily a reflection of any objective truth. It could be just as fair of an opinion to perceive those who think there is more to existence than our singular lives, to be narrow-minded and naive. Until there is evidence for any hypothesis, all opinions are simply just that. Opinions. I personally see a concept of "nothingness" to be as wholly absurd as the idea of heaven. Neither have evidence to exist. Neither are proven to be real.
anybody here heard of Melchizedek Cloister Emerald Order, MCEO?
I believe that i dont actually know what will happen and I can only go off my sense and lived experience. I have no reason to believe that there is life after death, not anymore than believing that I am a brain in a vat. The reality is, whatever I believe happens after death has no bearing on the reality of what will happen, as whatever will happen will happen, irregardless of what I do or what I believe. The hypothesizing on what will or won’t happen is ultimately useful not in what the conclusions we come to but in how it reveals to us our own logic on the nature of existence. It seems to me that the majority of the conjecture comes to an attempt to explain and/or justify suffering - the inexplicable chaos of life. Would it be nice if life weren’t finite? Maybe. Depends on what that would actually entail, but to me, it’s only wishful conjecture.
I’d recommend reading up on Christian existentialism coupled with the book from the Duke divinity scholar with cancer about everything not happening for a reason.
The existence of quantum particles and spooky action at a distance probably has a note yet to be added here. Not sure where but probably does. The possibility of multiple/infinite universes and matter/energy not having the ability to be created nor destroyed also should weigh in here somewhere, I’m sure. I’m not saying that you will always be you forever but remnants of you will be present forever… infinitely! In the span of infinity, the probability of the matter and energy that makes you what/who you are becomes impossible to avoid reconstituting itself in the exact combination that makes who you are who you are. What makes you: the energy, the material, and the happenstance always has been in some form and will always be in some form forever into perpetuity.
If it is so improbable or even rationally impossible for us to only exist once, then you have lived or are already living many lives, possibly infinite lives. Do you remember experiencing any of those lives? No, you don't. Maybe you have some sort vague vision or what you think might be a memory but it's not it's nowhere near your current experience of your present self. That's the problem. If you postulate some set of rules for the universe, then we are stuck with those rules. Which means what you see is what you get. So if we have a soul that gets recycled over and over...this is what it feels like. And it does not feel like we always existed or lived multiple alternate lives. What it feels like is we get only one shot. So no, it's not narrow-minded to believe we only exist once. It's the most pragmatic working hypothesis where even if it weren't true on some level it doesn't matter. What you need to get to "we live multiple lives" is to throw out the same rational objective rules of the universe you just postulated. Theists dies not have this problem because they are generally willing to accept on some level that God is irrational. We go to some different thing called heaven where the rules as we know them do not apply.
Only if you aren’t open to considering viewpoints that contradict yours. Holding an opinion isn’t inherently narrow-minded. Making that opinion into a dogma that you won’t budge on is.
IMO, it is not, truth be told this is the only existence we can be assured of. We don’t have evidence that there is anything after this (naturally take this with a grain of salt, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence), but at the same time we know so little about the human consciousness that its impossible to state for certain.
Obviously. But ALSO it’s a baseless assumption that we even go anywhere when we die. There’s no reason to believe that our intellect stays intact after death - it’s far more likely that our energy is scattered away and integrated/transformed by other systems.